Wearing Gloves For What ?

[SteveLau]

Since I do not find much discussed of the question in mind, so I might start a thread of my own. In sparring exercise, I have long believed that wearing gloves is more for protection of the opponent rather than our hands. MA students quite often have trained one kind or more hard Qi work for attack and self-protection. So that includes our fingers, knuckes and hands in overall. Therefore when a student is ready to go into free fight training, he usually is up to some level of hard Qi work training. But for safety, they do wear gloves and other protection gears during the exercise. Lately, I have learnt from a TV show that wearing gloves is more for protecting our hands. It does not protect the opponent being struck much. The concussion effect is about the same as without gloves on. I have not changed my view on the matter yet.

So what is your view on the question ?

Wish you all have a healthy and prosperous Year of the Dragon.



KC
Hong Kong

[Neeros]

I haven't started san da yet, but the school I am a part of spars with no protective equipment whatsoever. Just as all Shaolin practitioners did in the past. However control of ones own body is also practiced so if a strike does end up getting through the guard that speedy White Snake Shoots Venom to the throat or eyes will tend to stop an inch or two away from it's target.

I haven't heard any stories of accidental eye gouging or throat maulings yet. :p

[Oso]

wait for it

[Dragonzbane76]

Wearing gear goes beyond protection. When u spar with gear on you can put force behind your shots. It is for protection but has many other perks. You can train close to full on and not hurt each other.

[Pork Chop]

It's a trade-off.
No gloves = more broken hands, more cuts (ie more "bloodbath nights"), more broken noses, and in general, more surface damage.

Gloves = an ability to punch harder, longer, at harder targets; in general, more concussive damage.

There's a reason punching in most traditional martial arts looks different than modern boxing.
There's a reason punching in most traditional martial arts looks a lot more like bare-knuckle boxing.

You're not going to throw 100 full-power head punches each round at a bony skull without hand protection, because you're more likely to break your hands.

Furthermore, concussive damage takes a much longer time to show its effects. Boxers don't usually get punchy until much later in their life, after thousands of rounds of contact. Unfortunately, though, concussive brain damage is irreversible, and can lead to death.

In training, the goal is longevity. So we attempt to use gloves to minimize the surface damage, but limit the contact (in training) in order to minimize the concussive damage. But that too is a double-edged sword, because the contact needs to be hard enough to be realistic. That's why harder levels of contact are used sparingly; usually more so in the early stages of training, to teach awareness. Once you know what you're doing, you can make the harder sessions more infrequent.

Also, one and two-step sparring methods are often used to keep the sparring focused and purposeful. Sparring full out is a very inefficient way to actually improve skill. The higher the level of contact; the more gross-motor the movement, and the less the refinement of skills. You only have so much of your body to spend, so better make every little bit count.

[Chadderz]

It is mostly to protect the hands (MMA gloves). Boxing gloves do have a certain amount of padding that makes knockouts a bit rarer. It also stops your face becoming all cut and stuff.

Not wearing gloves in sparring sounds quite stupid IMO.

[SteveLau]

Gentlemen, thanks for your input. So far, Pork Chop's view is the best and very detail. I largely agree with his view. Yes, if we want to acquire full range of fight skill, we eventually need to wear some protective gears. That include gloves. And in real fight or training, we do hold back sometimes. It is partly because of ethical reason and also technical reason. For example, we would like to conserve our energy, and we also do not want to hurt our striking tools. But Pork Chop's post has not answered my original question. My view on the question has not changed yet - gloves are more to protect the opponent than our hands.




KC
Hong Kong

[Chadderz]

Gentlemen, thanks for your input. So far, Pork Chop's view is the best and very detail. I largely agree with his view. Yes, if we want to acquire full range of fight skill, we eventually need to wear some protective gears. That include gloves. And in real fight or training, we do hold back sometimes. It is partly because of ethical reason and also technical reason. For example, we would like to conserve our energy, and we also do not want to hurt our striking tools. But Pork Chop's post has not answered my original question. My view on the question has not changed yet - gloves are more to protect the opponent than our hands.




KC
Hong Kong

Well do you want to knock your training partner out? Or give them black eyes all the time?

[Frost]

Gentlemen, thanks for your input. So far, Pork Chop's view is the best and very detail. I largely agree with his view. Yes, if we want to acquire full range of fight skill, we eventually need to wear some protective gears. That include gloves. And in real fight or training, we do hold back sometimes. It is partly because of ethical reason and also technical reason. For example, we would like to conserve our energy, and we also do not want to hurt our striking tools. But Pork Chop's post has not answered my original question. My view on the question has not changed yet - gloves are more to protect the opponent than our hands.




KC
Hong Kong

old style boxing with bare knuckles used to last up to 100 rounds, old school Vale tudo didnt see many knock outs, UFC saw a large increase in KOs after gloves were allowed (which is ironic because they were brought in for fighter protection lol) , those are simple facts easily googled, the facts are gloves allow you to hit harder and more often, thus they are for your protection

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is NOT a case of either/or gentlemen.
Gloves do BOTH.
The protect your hands which allows you to hit harder and more often.
The protect your sparring partner and to a more limited extent, your opponent because they limit superficial lacerations.
The concussive effect is greater because most people do tend to hold back a bit with bare hands when, after the first few shots when the adrenaline starts to wear off, they realize that hitting the head ( and elbows in the case of missed body shots) of their opponents hurts.

[David Jamieson]

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkytygC6Oj1qhvkubo1_400.gif

[GeneChing]

I have learnt from a TV show
Learn a lot from TV shows, do we? Well, I guess that's better than learning from a forum. :o

I've broken both wrists and my right thumb in fights without gloves. That was when I was young and stupid. While some injury is inevitable during training, minimization of injury is always in your best interest. Always wear protection. ;)

[Jimbo]

Also, it doesn't matter how much hard qi gong or iron hand you may have trained, your hands are still flesh and bone. You may condition them, but they can still be injured, esp. if your hand is blocked by an elbow, you hit wrong, etc.

**oops, Sanjuro already mentioned some of this.

[Dragonzbane76]

Also, it doesn't matter how much hard qi gong or iron hand you may have trained, your hands are still flesh and bone. You may condition them, but they can still be injured, esp. if your hand is blocked by an elbow, you hit wrong, etc.

agree. protection is always your best bet when training.

[SteveLau]

I've broken both wrists and my right thumb in fights without gloves.

Poor dear!


Well, what I had in when I asked the original question is a general situation. That the pyschological and mentality of the fighters is not considered. Just in general, whether gloves tend to protect our hands more or the opponent being struck more? That means I do not consider whether the fighters tend to fight with more power with gloves on. Though it is a good observation to know. Any more input from other forum members?

[Frost]

Poor dear!


Well, what I had in when I asked the original question is a general situation. That the pyschological and mentality of the fighters is not considered. Just in general, whether gloves tend to protect our hands more or the opponent being struck more? That means I do not consider whether the fighters tend to fight with more power with gloves on. Though it is a good observation to know. Any more input from other forum members?

your question has been answered, if you dont like the answer just stop posting, no point in keeping askign it in the hope you get the reply you want

[jdhowland]

My group wears gloves for sparring because it is less likely that we will cut or bruise a training partner. We never wear gloves for bag training.

[SteveLau]

Double check the posts made by other people shows that my question has indeed been answered by only one post.



The protect your hands which allows you to hit harder and more often.
The protect your sparring partner and to a more limited extent, your opponent because they limit superficial lacerations.
by Sanjuro Ronin

Most of other posts in this thread talk about what happen during fight with and without gloves on. But my question asked what is the intention of having gloves on. Sometimes, what we intend does not turn out to be what happen later on. So what Ronin said is that gloves are intended to protect both our hands and the opponent, and to protect the former more. I figure that his reasoning is that the immediate goal of fight (real or training) is to win. Therefore, we should care about protecting ourself more. On the other hand, my view is based on what often happen during fight. The person got struck is more likely got hurt and more seriously hurt than the striker. Coincidentally, his view is the opposite of mine. Well, as a matter of fact, it is OK for others' view different from mine. As long as they are all backed up by valid reasons.


P.S. the discussion explains why gloves for professional tournament are designed different from those for training.


KC
Hong Kong

[Oso]

you're trying to rehash a really old traditional vs. sport argument.



from

http://thesaurus.com/browse/vomit




Part of Speech:

verb



Definition:

disgorge



Synonyms:

be seasick, be sick, bring up*, dry heave, eject, emit, expel, gag, heave, hurl, puke, regurgitate, retch, ruminate, spew, spit up, throw up, upchuck

[Neeros]

you're trying to rehash a really old traditional vs. sport argument.



from

http://thesaurus.com/browse/vomit

My, you really do have a strange fascination with....regurgitation, don't you?



Anyway.

I don't think that gloves or equipment are necessary because in a sparring environment you and your partner should be helping each other develop combat skills and perfect control over your bodies. Instead mostly sparring nowadays is just trying to take the other guys head off. :p

[Oso]

My, you really do have a strange fascination with....regurgitation, don't you?



Anyway.

I don't think that gloves or equipment are necessary because in a sparring environment you and your partner should be helping each other develop combat skills and perfect control over your bodies. Instead mostly sparring nowadays is just trying to take the other guys head off. :p

see, all those points should not be mutually exclusive.

it's a non debatable point...if you think it is...you're wrong :p

[Neeros]

see, all those points should not be mutually exclusive.

it's a non debatable point...if you think it is...you're wrong :p

*Shrugs* :)

[Oso]

oh, and my fascination with regurgitation is not nearly the fetish it is around here.


btw, Jamieson, that was funny

[Pork Chop]

You shouldn't "win" in sparring and you shouldn't "take the other guy's head off" either.

What you should do is deliver techniques as realistically and safely as possible in a manner that benefits both attacker and defender.

The purpose of protective equipment is to ensure the safety of both attacker and defender; I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear enough in my initial post.

Because you guys are so fond of tossing brash generalizations, I'll toss one back at you: one of the big weaknesses in the tcma crowd is the belief that "if I can tap you, I can hurt you". About 99% of the "scoring" in sticky hands exercises wouldn't hurt a flea.

If you can throw a technique at a speed approaching actual, with no protective gear, and have 100% certainty that nobody's going to get injured, then you should probably re-evaluate the effectiveness of that technique. If there is never any speed behind the technique, I would question whether any realistic defensive skill was being developed.

Any mma guy can tell you that defending against big gloves is easier than defending against smaller gloves, and defending against bare knuckle is harder still.

[Neeros]

heh nice.

Well of course nothing is 100% certain, that is what Jow and remedial Qigong are for. :rolleyes:

Well, just to counter that, techniques that can cause lots of problems on the receiving end, eye gouges, tiger claws to the groin, etc basically vital point strikes can be trained safely in a light-to-no contact sparring environment. Even so, strikes and kicks to the body and head can be pulled just enough to simulate a devastating strike as well. The health of your friends does not need to be risked to train combat efficiency. With correct intent sparring can be effective, and safe. It's easy to test force without giving your friends internal injuries.

*Shrugs* A major goal in my training is to eventually do full contact spars with other styles, and enter full contact tournaments, so I guess I will see the effectiveness of my system then. Until then I am just going to train hard how my Sifu teaches me and enjoy all the auxiliary benefits. :D

[Oso]

hmmm...i don't think i know of any full contact tournaments allowing eye gouges or 'tiger claws to the groin'.

i mean...are you serious????


oh, wait...maybe you mean this tournament:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4

[Dragonzbane76]

Well, just to counter that, techniques that can cause lots of problems on the receiving end, eye gouges, tiger claws to the groin, etc basically vital point strikes can be trained safely in a light-to-no contact sparring environment. Even so, strikes and kicks to the body and head can be pulled just enough to simulate a devastating strike as well. The health of your friends does not need to be risked to train combat efficiency. With correct intent sparring can be effective, and safe. It's easy to test force without giving your friends internal injuries.

*Shrugs* A major goal in my training is to eventually do full contact spars with other styles, and enter full contact tournaments, so I guess I will see the effectiveness of my system then. Until then I am just going to train hard how my Sifu teaches me and enjoy all the auxiliary benefits.

my thoughts, how can you train something like throat strikes, groin, eye, if you never do it in full force? Anything and everything can work right if the situation alllows for it. But I think you are missing the point of what most said here. Protective gloves are used for testing power limits. You can't really test "deadly" strikes on someone without hurting them in full motion or resistance. Gloves allow for strikes that have force behind them, most times punching and kicking. The arguement for the "realz deadlies" has been done to death. To many factors involved that make them low percentage techniques. I'm not going to state that they do not work, but training them is another animal all together. Just tip tapping around while sparring and throwing these techniques does not tell you how much power is needed to actually pull them off.

[Neeros]

hmmm...i don't think i know of any full contact tournaments allowing eye gouges or 'tiger claws to the groin'.

i mean...are you serious????


oh, wait...maybe you mean this tournament:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4

lol! No you misunderstand. I was talking about being able to safely train applications that one would use in life or death situations. As well as safely training other less damaging techniques, strikes, kicks, chin-na, etc.

As for knowing whether you are effective with these techniques.


my thoughts, how can you train something like throat strikes, groin, eye, if you never do it in full force? Anything and everything can work right if the situation alllows for it. But I think you are missing the point of what most said here. Protective gloves are used for testing power limits. You can't really test "deadly" strikes on someone without hurting them in full motion or resistance. Gloves allow for strikes that have force behind them, most times punching and kicking. The arguement for the "realz deadlies" has been done to death. To many factors involved that make them low percentage techniques. I'm not going to state that they do not work, but training them is another animal all together. Just tip tapping around while sparring and throwing these techniques does not tell you how much power is needed to actually pull them off.

You need 3 things to pull off a technique. skills of combat application, skills of timing and spacing, etc, and force, internal or external. You build these skills through systematic drills, and force training, and then test with free sparring to see your strengths and weaknesses, etc.

If you can put your snake hand through an apple or a watermelon you can surely blind someone. I'll give you an experiment of tiger claw. Grab your own balls right now as hard as you can, lemme know how that goes. :p

Sparring is testing, its a testing of combat application, and skill, not just force. I am not only talking about "d34dly" techniques, but any technique. In the groin grabbing example though, if you do tiger claw training for a year or two, and you have also developed the skills to do as I said above and simulate an application like "monkey steals peach" it wouldn't be hard to put the two together and steal them peaches, even without tiger claw force training if you did the little experiment above(I would hope you didn't) it could be quite effective if executed fully. :D

But you are right, I am sure it has been done to death, I'm just sharing a more "traditional" training perspective by telling how we do it.

Plus honestly I don't have enough experience in Kung fu yet to really argue effectiveness of techniques, so I am withdrawing from this thread. :)

Time to train!

[Dragonzbane76]

Not inciting a flame war, but u are still missing the point of testing power limits. Not only are u testing these limits with gloves, u are testing and training what happens if u miss the target with a fully committed strike. Lots of variables involved for sure. As for the tiger claw issue i will say this, u are going to use this technique in grappling range. Learn clinch work and grappling techniques for better use of your time than training tiger claws. Thats just my opinion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How does one train the "deadly"?
Actually it is quite simple and they way it has always been trained.
It is called "carryover".
An example would be the tiger claw, since it was mentioned.
While one can't "rip out throats and eyes" while sparring, one can nevertheless grab the throat/neck and with protect googles the eyes can be a target.
What MUST be done however, is the proper conditoning of the tiger claw, which few seem to do by the way.
A friend of mine is an ideal tiger clawist, he can bend wrenches and rib cards and was working on "rolling up" frying pans, he has freakish grip strength and there is no need to imagine what he can do to a person's throat IF he gets it PROPERLY and that is what sparring is far, to learn how to GET THERE properly.
Samething goes for eye strikes and gouges and groin attacks.
Anyone that has every fought for real ( street or limited rules or even just plain old full contact) knows that groin attacks are highly overrated as fight finishers with a few exceptions ( kneeing someone in the groin multiple times like one is "laying out carpet" usually gets the job done for example).

[SavvySavage]

Gloves are cool because they allow for real hitting. I do the un-gloved stuff too but that turns into slap fighting quick. Also people get angry when you hit their face with your knuckle by accident too many times. If they're wearing a helmit they're too rocked to care. lol

[Oso]

grabbing the larynx (sp?) is not that hard in a grapple. took a guy down once when i was a bouncer after he poked me in the chest for the third time as I was trying to get him to leave the bar...had him pinned to the ground with my thumb buried palm deep next to his adam's apple. unfortunately, that left me open for his buddy to try and drop kick me in the ribs. luckily, one of my co-workers had an awesome check kick and I didn't get my ribs stove in.