PDA

View Full Version : Food for thought



doug maverick
10-13-2001, 09:10 PM
A man spent his entire life looking for a great sage. upon finding him at his home the sage calls the man by name and asked him to come in, the said: "How is it that you know who i am"

to which the sage replied: "how is it that you do not"

doug maverick
10-13-2001, 09:12 PM
imeant to say the man said.

sanjuro_ronin
01-30-2012, 11:30 AM
Go to youtube ( no doubt the biggest collection of online videos of all types).
Key in boxing and what do you get? what are the top videos that show up and what is being done?
Do the same for MMA, or Judo or BJJ or kyokushin or kickboxing.
What do you get?

Now, type in Kung fu, or better yet your personal style of kung fu.
What do you get?

Interesting eh?

MasterKiller
01-30-2012, 11:41 AM
Try the same thing on redtube, then report back.

sanjuro_ronin
01-30-2012, 11:44 AM
BBWWAHHHHHH !!!!
Sick *******, LMAO !!

SPJ
01-30-2012, 11:55 AM
in 2005, youtube was born.

in 2006, we may find many relevant and good clips about kungfu.

nowadays, it is more and more difficult to search and find good clips.

lots of repeats and not so good clips abound

after wading pages and pages of not so good clips

I gave up.

so I started to save good clips with a free hosting site

and then blogger

so that I may see them easily and share with folks that are interested.

there is also advance search from google

anyhoo

repeats and not so good clips outnumber the good ones

such is the life.

:(

sanjuro_ronin
01-30-2012, 12:01 PM
in 2005, youtube was born.

in 2006, we may find many relevant and good clips about kungfu.

nowadays, it is more and more difficult to search and find good clips.

lots of repeats and not so good clips abound

after wading pages and pages of not so good clips

I gave up.

so I started to save good clips with a free hosting site

and then blogger

so that I may see them easily and share with folks that are interested.

there is also advance search from google

anyhoo

repeats and not so good clips outnumber the good ones

such is the life.

:(


Speaks volumes doesn't it?

The thing is that the top results in the systems I mentioned all showed people fighting or training fighting or training for a fight ( and of course the high profile fighters being interviewed).
You search for boxing videos and you get videos of guys boxing in the ring.
DO a search for Judo and you see competitions.
Same thing for sanshou/sanda or Muay Thai or kyokushin, etc.

I can be argued that these are sport systems ans as such the competitive videos are popular and easy to find.
Great, I accept that argument.

So search for those systems and add training at the end, what do you get?

Do the same for your chosen TCMA, and what do you get?

Lucas
01-30-2012, 12:07 PM
what do you get when you do a search for; 'san shou kung fu' ?

David Jamieson
01-30-2012, 12:34 PM
what do you get when you type in zen?
how about classical weapons training?
martial medicine?

I think it needs to be recognized that Kung Fu is MORE than just a martial sport.
Why do people bother trying to stick it in that box. You want that? have some san da or san shou. There, you can now have Kung Fu as a sport.

Fact of the matter is that other martial arts just don't have as many avenues or limbs as Kung Fu does. get over it boxing, you have no weapons and meditation. boxing is still good. Get over it judo, you still never learned to throw a punch, and so on and so forth. :)

SPJ
01-30-2012, 01:55 PM
I spent most of time in search of music video from the past and present on youtube.

I bookmark or tweet about them.

I also post them on facebook and google +

when I want to listen to the music

I may look them up easily on my facebook, google+ posts.

VEVO compiling some good clips of music videos from singers.

if only some one would do the same for kung fu clips.

or san shou clips

or styles of training clips

and call it

KEVO etc etc

http://www.youtube.com/user/LadyGagaVEVO?blend=4&ob=0

http://www.youtube.com/user/vevo?blend=1&ob=4


:D

sanjuro_ronin
01-30-2012, 02:01 PM
what do you get when you type in zen?
how about classical weapons training?
martial medicine?

I think it needs to be recognized that Kung Fu is MORE than just a martial sport.
Why do people bother trying to stick it in that box. You want that? have some san da or san shou. There, you can now have Kung Fu as a sport.

Fact of the matter is that other martial arts just don't have as many avenues or limbs as Kung Fu does. get over it boxing, you have no weapons and meditation. boxing is still good. Get over it judo, you still never learned to throw a punch, and so on and so forth. :)

The fact that the majority of the videos of a Martial art don't show ANY fighting says a lot dude.

David Jamieson
01-30-2012, 02:46 PM
The fact that the majority of the videos of a Martial art don't show ANY fighting says a lot dude.

I knew how to fight before I took up Kung Fu and had been in more fights before taking up practice than after.

But if you type "san da training" or "san shou training" you'll see plenty of fighting. These being the sport fighting models for kung fu.

So, in context to what Kung Fu is, it doesn't say much really other than Kung Fu is not just boxing, or not just wrestling, or not just throwing etc etc.

so...anyway:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kung+fu+sanda
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kung+fu+sanshou

and here's a little rbsd from teh kung fu fights search!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHiftWa3yOY

SPJ
01-30-2012, 03:13 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HysegS3Wgho&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaC1gyrygms&feature=related

wu lin da hui

entertainment first, entertainment in the middle and entertainment at last.

such is the life, too.

:)

sanjuro_ronin
01-31-2012, 06:46 AM
I knew how to fight before I took up Kung Fu and had been in more fights before taking up practice than after.

But if you type "san da training" or "san shou training" you'll see plenty of fighting. These being the sport fighting models for kung fu.

So, in context to what Kung Fu is, it doesn't say much really other than Kung Fu is not just boxing, or not just wrestling, or not just throwing etc etc.

so...anyway:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kung+fu+sanda
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=kung+fu+sanshou

and here's a little rbsd from teh kung fu fights search!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHiftWa3yOY

Indeed, if you search for sanda/sanshou you will see fighting and what is sanda/sanshou?
Modern chinese "MMA".

I mention TCMA simply because this is a TCMA forum, but the issue is present in TJA ( of which the Okinawan ones get "mixed in with")

What we should be seeing when we type in wing chun or hung ga or white crane or praying mantis, is people fighting with those styles.

I was reading Kennedy's books again, the Training manual one and the Jing wu one, and in those manuals what you got was forms, yes, but applications and even strength training and it while even then there were writers lamenting the sad state of TCMA and how they had become "flowery fists", the main view was that MA are for fighting and one took up a MA because they wanted to use it to fight ( from money or military or whatever).

But I digress.

The simple fact is that what we SHOULD be seeing when we do a search is the chosen MA being used in a fight, good or bad is irrelevant, people should be fighting or training to fight.
We do NOT see that.
The thing is that people put up videos ( be them private or commercial) of what they think people want to see, what they think their MA is all about and that THOSE people putting up videos are NOT showing people fighting, that too speaks volumes.

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 07:25 AM
I don't discount the arts themselves because there has been no model built for them to compete and I don't hold it against any of them for not getting into mma which is indeed what san shou / san da is kind of.

My art may not be your art after all and I don't think there is any value in pressing various arts into a box. In my opinion, that's narrow minded and detrimental to the arts. If a Kung Fu student wants to compete and fight, he goes and does san shou. or whatever else he's interested in that offers that.

Quite simply some tcma are not suitable for sport model and where they are is where san shou answers the call.

We don't ask boxers to train kicking do we?
We don't ask Judoka to start punching and kicking do we?
We don't ask Kareteka to wrestle do we?
We don't ask wrestlers to punch and kick do we?
We don't ask MMA-ists to study classical weapons, medicine or meditation do we?

Why is it so important to force tcma into a framework that it doesn't really fit into or that diminishes the transformative aspects of it as a preference? If Kung Fu became just another ****genous pile of stuff, it would lose it's true value, it's unique offerings outside of the context of merely fighting.

One doesn't need to learn anything to have a fight or flight response after all.
Training is just training and at my age, I prefer training to be around healthful exercises and fitness regimens thet are found within the arts I study.

I'm not interested in collecting injuries from training. lol. I think that's kind of stupid quite frankly and see no merit in it for the over 35 set and those guys that are doing that are just kidding themselves or chasing lost youth or some other mental construct that isn't realistic.

Besides, even if a Kung Fu guy takes his gun to town, he'll get derided for it and if he succeeds or fails, it will not be Kung Fu in anyone's eyes.

Bottom line, if you don't like TCMAs, don't do them, don't participate in their methods and go do what you think is better. the choice is certainly there and there is no one stopping anyone from doing that.

I dig the Kung fu I have and practice and am not in the least bit interested in fighting anyone at all. I train in the event that maybe I might have to fight someone some day and some training is better than none in my opinion, but no training negates any threat, ever.

sanjuro_ronin
01-31-2012, 07:32 AM
We don't ask boxers to train kicking do we?
We don't ask Judoka to start punching and kicking do we?
We don't ask Kareteka to wrestle do we?
We don't ask wrestlers to punch and kick do we?
We don't ask MMA-ists to study classical weapons, medicine or meditation do we?

Nope, but we do "ask" them all to fight.
While it's great to state that kung fu is more than just fighting because over the decades we have add all this other crap to it that had very little (if anything) to do with its original form, none of that changes the fact that Martial Arts are about fighting first and foremost.

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 08:13 AM
Nope, but we do "ask" them all to fight.
While it's great to state that kung fu is more than just fighting because over the decades we have add all this other crap to it that had very little (if anything) to do with its original form, none of that changes the fact that Martial Arts are about fighting first and foremost.

Sure, but Kung Fu is not just martial art and is not about fighting first and foremost.

Kung Fu is literally "Time+Effort" and within it you will find fighting and indeed that can be the focus of your training no matter what. You can achieve Kung Fu in swordplay or marksmanship or boxing etc.

Kung Fu is also about cultivation of the better person within you. In my opinion it is unwise to do away with the transformative process that is inherent to the Practice towards achieving Kung Fu.

There is nothing stopping a Kung Fu practitioner from going and training to fight and fighting etc etc. I have no idea why people are so upset about it.

Kung Fu never "should" be what someone else thinks it should be. For one thing, there is more to Kung Fu than any individual mind can possibly learn, know and comprehend. There is no such thing as a person who knows everything there is to know about Kung Fu. That's just the way it is.

When I look at Kung Fu, I can look at forms, weapons play, solo practice, fighting, meditation, hard work out, light work out, and so on and so forth. It is almost limitless in it's offerings and yet has at it's core and idea about developing a human into a full and capable person.

to be a full and capable person through the practice of Kung Fu and using it's principles in daily life is much more descriptive of what Kung Fu is about. It is the fighting part that attracts young men to it though, I concede that. Young men like to fight and tussle. That's just the way.

But to demand that all the myriad styles fit into a box and do what someone thinks they "should" be? I disagree with that. If I want to just fight, then I won't take up Kung Fu.

If you want to fight competitively in a ring full on full blast etc etc, take up boxing. That's what I did. I took up Kung Fu to transform.

Ray Pina
01-31-2012, 09:12 AM
But if you type "san da training" or "san shou training" you'll see plenty of fighting. These being the sport fighting models for kung fu.



I don't think its fair for all of Kung Fu to ride the San Da wave.

Boxers box
Kick Boxers kick box
Judo guys do judo
BJJ guys do BJJ
MMA guys do MMA
San Da guys kick box with throws
Kung Fu does form

Pork Chop
01-31-2012, 09:20 AM
That kung fu quest tv show out of Hong Kong is not bad.

The other night I saw the episode on Baji Quan:

One dude (with a background in Lau family Hung Gar) learned empty hand forms & learned how to spar with it - first against a baji quan player (bareknuckle, no head contact, with throws) and then against a supposed muay thai guy (mma gloves, limited contact).

A second guy (with a background in Kali) learned a whole bunch of pole stuff and had multiple spars with various people using the long pole (and protective gear).

I also saw part of an episode on Lam Family Hung Gar:

Phillip Ng (Chicago Choy Lay Fut Sifu Sam Ng's son) interviews a Hung Gar guy who explains his fighting philosophy. They spar. The Hung Gar guy then explains some techniques he likes to use in San Shou (kick catches & what-not). Then they finished out the show with another spar.

They don't go all out on the striking & the bareknuckle stuff comes off like a light version of kyokushin; but at least they show enough to get the idea. The throws were pretty nice.

Scott R. Brown
01-31-2012, 09:34 AM
I didn't read a single thing about "Food" in this entire thread!!!:mad:

What does THAT tell you?:mad::mad:

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 10:31 AM
I don't think its fair for all of Kung Fu to ride the San Da wave.

Boxers box
Kick Boxers kick box
Judo guys do judo
BJJ guys do BJJ
MMA guys do MMA
San Da guys kick box with throws
Kung Fu does form

Ray, all you're doing here is displaying a complete lack of understanding what Kung Fu is.

San Shou IS the venue for sportive combative aspect of Kung Fu.

Or would you enter the ring to box a guy with a sword?

lol

Lucas
01-31-2012, 10:44 AM
i think what ray means is that the individuals who dont spar, fight, or train in that fashion ride on the coat tails of sanshou/sanda

he is right after all.

HOWEVER...he also always fails to give credit where credit is due. there are plenty of individuals that have put in a load of blood, sweat, and tears to develop strong martial skills with cma. some people like to act like their **** doesnt stink.

time and again its the same argument. when you point out cma people fighting mma with strong skills and solid records, it is not acknowledged. the people that ***** the loudest are the first to dissapear when those accusations are confronted with evidence and facts to the contrary.

some people only see in black and white and do not realize that most is grey. they deserve your pity.

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 11:47 AM
i think what ray means is that the individuals who dont spar, fight, or train in that fashion ride on the coat tails of sanshou/sanda

he is right after all.

HOWEVER...he also always fails to give credit where credit is due. there are plenty of individuals that have put in a load of blood, sweat, and tears to develop strong martial skills with cma. some people like to act like their **** doesnt stink.

time and again its the same argument. when you point out cma people fighting mma with strong skills and solid records, it is not acknowledged. the people that ***** the loudest are the first to dissapear when those accusations are confronted with evidence and facts to the contrary.

some people only see in black and white and do not realize that most is grey. they deserve your pity.

I don't put the keys to my happiness in someone else's coat pocket.

I also don't accept redefinitions based on someone else's bitterness towards something perceived or real.

I enjoy my training, I don't ride on anyone's coattails and frankly, I don't think that many do. there's just as many people there for the t-shirt in mma gyms as anywhere else.

I think there is a lot of ego and crap talk in all martial arts. Less so when the player has refined himself somewhat and polished up a bit. IN any art.

What is there to prove anymore anyway? Nothing except the challenge to the the self as in "can I?" Well, yes you can, with practice you can do just about anything.

This whole thread is just more "Kung Fu is lacking because it's not like sport fighting". I don't agree with that on any level. Especially not judging by the people who come back round full circle to traditional martial arts to see what can be pulled from them. lol Which happens a lot.

Does anyone here think MMA just popped up out of no where? Go take a look at the backgrounds on many o those people who compete. Where did they start? What do they do as well as their chosen competitive thing?

Yeah, that's right, there's a lot of guys in there who started traditional and still go to that well for water.

Drake
01-31-2012, 11:53 AM
Kung Fu exists more as an abstract, a sort of philosophy for me. Picked up some excellent fighting principles along the way, too.

When I need to fight for real, I typically just Hulk out and smash the person until they stop moving. Remarkably simple, remarkably effective.

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 11:56 AM
Kung Fu exists more as an abstract, a sort of philosophy for me. Picked up some excellent fighting principles along the way, too.

When I need to fight for real, I typically just Hulk out and smash the person until they stop moving. Remarkably simple, remarkably effective.

Fight for real = not training.

People fighting don't tend to exhibit what it is they trained, except when in a sports situation where everyone is relatively safe from being murdered.

I don't look at Kung Fu as too abstract though. It's got a set of methods and it has results from those methods when applied in the manner as intended.

But yes! Fighting is fighting. You either have the balls or you don't. Period.

Drake
01-31-2012, 12:00 PM
Fight for real = not training.

People fighting don't tend to exhibit what it is they trained, except when in a sports situation where everyone is relatively safe from being murdered.

I don't look at Kung Fu as too abstract though. It's got a set of methods and it has results from those methods when applied in the manner as intended.

But yes! Fighting is fighting. You either have the balls or you don't. Period.

Most of the underlying principles exist in every other fighting style, and are pretty common sense. Who would argue that a strong foundation doesn't improve stability? Or that using the waist to generate torque doesn't generate more force than simply using your arms alone?

Saying Kung Fu is just forms is like saying bodybuilding is just about getting a gym membership.

Lucas
01-31-2012, 12:02 PM
Saying Kung Fu is just forms is like saying bodybuilding is just about getting a gym membership.

but it strokes the ego so nicely...

SavvySavage
01-31-2012, 12:07 PM
I don't discount the arts themselves because there has been no model built for them to compete and I don't hold it against any of them for not getting into mma which is indeed what san shou / san da is kind of.

My art may not be your art after all and I don't think there is any value in pressing various arts into a box. In my opinion, that's narrow minded and detrimental to the arts. If a Kung Fu student wants to compete and fight, he goes and does san shou. or whatever else he's interested in that offers that.

Quite simply some tcma are not suitable for sport model and where they are is where san shou answers the call.

We don't ask boxers to train kicking do we?
We don't ask Judoka to start punching and kicking do we?
We don't ask Kareteka to wrestle do we?
We don't ask wrestlers to punch and kick do we?
We don't ask MMA-ists to study classical weapons, medicine or meditation do we?

Why is it so important to force tcma into a framework that it doesn't really fit into or that diminishes the transformative aspects of it as a preference? If Kung Fu became just another ****genous pile of stuff, it would lose it's true value, it's unique offerings outside of the context of merely fighting.

One doesn't need to learn anything to have a fight or flight response after all.
Training is just training and at my age, I prefer training to be around healthful exercises and fitness regimens thet are found within the arts I study.

I'm not interested in collecting injuries from training. lol. I think that's kind of stupid quite frankly and see no merit in it for the over 35 set and those guys that are doing that are just kidding themselves or chasing lost youth or some other mental construct that isn't realistic.

Besides, even if a Kung Fu guy takes his gun to town, he'll get derided for it and if he succeeds or fails, it will not be Kung Fu in anyone's eyes.

Bottom line, if you don't like TCMAs, don't do them, don't participate in their methods and go do what you think is better. the choice is certainly there and there is no one stopping anyone from doing that.

I dig the Kung fu I have and practice and am not in the least bit interested in fighting anyone at all. I train in the event that maybe I might have to fight someone some day and some training is better than none in my opinion, but no training negates any threat, ever.

Yeah, but David it now seems you are boxing those styles in. What if a muay thai guy went to acupuncture and meditated on his own? Meditating isn't that hard, honestly. Any style can have all of the aspects you listed. Muay thai probably has a ton of medicine to deal with injuries due to their hard training regimen. The point Sanjuro is making is that they have the fighting aspect too. And anything they don't have(meditation, medicine, etc) can be added in but they still have the fighting aspect. Gung fu has all of those things...and lacks a lot in the fighting aspects compared to fighting styles.

Judo has choke revivals. When someone gets choked out he gets revived by his partner if his partner has learned that aspect. This is what I call practical medicine. They have the medicine(choke revivals) and the fighting(actually choking each other). And if you read Jigoro Kano's book it's mostly about philosophy and becoming a whole better person.

Drake
01-31-2012, 12:07 PM
but it strokes the ego so nicely...

You said "stroke".... huhuhuhuhuh....

Hebrew Hammer
01-31-2012, 12:13 PM
Kung Fu exists more as an abstract, a sort of philosophy for me. Picked up some excellent fighting principles along the way, too.

When I need to fight for real, I typically just Hulk out and smash the person until they stop moving. Remarkably simple, remarkably effective.

Mongo like to SMASH....sometimes you can't change who you are...I could probably train in Tai Chi or Aikido or CLF for years out of enjoyment and when you get punched in the face (like I did a couple of months ago), the next thing I knew I had taken the guy down, shot a double leg and and transitioned into the 'full mount' totally on reflex/instinct. I don't even train that way, and I'm NOT a BJJ guy but its funny how it worked out that way.

You see it in competitive fighting all the time, a fighter will train for months to alter his/her style for a big fight...the moment they get hit hard in the face they revert right back to what they ARE. Be it a brawler, grappler, or boxer.

sanjuro_ronin
01-31-2012, 12:16 PM
I didn't read a single thing about "Food" in this entire thread!!!:mad:

What does THAT tell you?:mad::mad:

It tells you that you are on KungFuForums baby !!

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 12:29 PM
Yeah, but David it now seems you are boxing those styles in. What if a muay thai guy went to acupuncture and meditated on his own? Meditating isn't that hard, honestly. Any style can have all of the aspects you listed. Muay thai probably has a ton of medicine to deal with injuries due to their hard training regimen. The point Sanjuro is making is that they have the fighting aspect too. And anything they don't have(meditation, medicine, etc) can be added in but they still have the fighting aspect. Gung fu has all of those things...and lacks a lot in the fighting aspects compared to fighting styles.

Judo has choke revivals. When someone gets choked out he gets revived by his partner if his partner has learned that aspect. This is what I call practical medicine. They have the medicine(choke revivals) and the fighting(actually choking each other). And if you read Jigoro Kano's book it's mostly about philosophy and becoming a whole better person.

Here's where the head goes "pop"... :p

you can have Kung Fu in Muay Thai, or in Judo your Kung Fu can shine through, or even in boxing, one can have Kung Fu in boxing.

This is my point. It's not about semantics or pedantry.

dirtyrat
01-31-2012, 12:32 PM
the kung fu culture i trained in had an air of secrecy. at no time we were allowed to video record anything. initially i hated it, but came to appreciate the practical value of keeping your best stuff to yourself. and so have my classmates, many of whom came from other disciplines (boxing, kickboxing, karate, judo, etc).

we don't really train to "duel". our focus was pure self defense.

SavvySavage
01-31-2012, 12:36 PM
Here's where the head goes "pop"... :p

you can have Kung Fu in Muay Thai, or in Judo your Kung Fu can shine through, or even in boxing, one can have Kung Fu in boxing.

This is my point. It's not about semantics or pedantry.

Yeah, but why can't kung fu have the fighting? I get it that everything is kung fu. You can have kung fu in piano, in tap dancing, etc...but there are also specific styles that are derived from chinese kung fu principles. They should have the fighting too if other styles like MT can have the non-fighting aspects of kung fu.

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 12:39 PM
Yeah, but why can't kung fu have the fighting? I get it that everything is kung fu. You can have kung fu in piano, in tap dancing, etc...but there are also specific styles that are derived from chinese kung fu principles. They should have the fighting too if other styles like MT can have the non-fighting aspects of kung fu.

It can. It does. Simply because it's not on youtube is meaningless. In America, we have a cultural frame of reference that actual creates an underlying ignorance of what is out there in the world. You don't honestly think that people don't use their chinese martial arts to fight do you?

SavvySavage
01-31-2012, 12:47 PM
It can. It does. Simply because it's not on youtube is meaningless. In America, we have a cultural frame of reference that actual creates an underlying ignorance of what is out there in the world. You don't honestly think that people don't use their chinese martial arts to fight do you?

I agree with Sanjuro that if they did it would be up on youtube. Be honest here. YOu don't actually believe what you're saying. I think you're just playing devil's advocate.

Just like if there were real UFOs they would have been caught on our advanced digital cameras unless the aliens somehow couldn't avoid our old cameras and can with the new ones.

Anyway, if it is done often it would be up.

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 12:52 PM
I agree with Sanjuro that if they did it would be up on youtube. Be honest here. YOu don't actually believe what you're saying. I think you're just playing devil's advocate.

Just like if there were real UFOs they would have been caught on our advanced digital cameras unless the aliens somehow couldn't avoid our old cameras and can with the new ones.

Anyway, if it is done often it would be up.

No, I firmly believe in what I'm talking about.
But that's ok, I understand not everyone lives in the same world.

Pedantry is for pedants, in my experience Kung Fu people tend to move away from unnecessary displays, chest pounding, weiner measuring and peeing contests. I've seen brutal and ugly fights between kung fu people. None of it is available on youtube, and that's a good thing. In fact, if it happened before 1980, it's not likely to be on Youtube unless someone took the trouble of converting some 8mm or what have you.

So, no, I don't agree and yes, I believe what I am saying to be true in a honest viewpoint and from personal experience.

Besides, if you guys want to see that, are into Kung Fu then why complain? Why not go out with your cheap camera, fight with your kung fu and post it on youtube already and quit complaining about everyone else not providing you with something to gawk at and criticize. :p

SavvySavage
01-31-2012, 12:56 PM
No, I firmly believe in what I'm talking about.
But that's ok, I understand not everyone lives in the same world.

Pedantry is for pedants, in my experience Kung Fu people tend to move away from unnecessary displays, chest pounding, weiner measuring and peeing contests. I've seen brutal and ugly fights between kung fu people. None of it is available on youtube, and that's a good thing. In fact, if it happened before 1980, it's not likely to be on Youtube unless someone took the trouble of converting some 8mm or what have you.

So, no, I don't agree and yes, I believe what I am saying to be true in a honest viewpoint and from personal experience.

Besides, if you guys want to see that, are into Kung Fu then why complain? Why not go out with your cheap camera, fight with your kung fu and post it on youtube already and quit complaining about everyone else not providing you with something to gawk at and criticize. :p


I'm not talking about street fights. I know kung fu guys who have been in a ton of those but most people never see those. I'm talking about two guys attacking each other(call if dueling if you want) hitting hard but not maliciously. That's what I'm talking about.

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 12:59 PM
I'm not talking about street fights. I know kung fu guys who have been in a ton of those but most people never see those. I'm talking about two guys attacking each other(call if dueling if you want) hitting hard but not maliciously. That's what I'm talking about.

I think I posted a couple of vids of that.

Also, Why are people trying to disconnect san shou from Kung Fu anyway? It's pretty much directly related. That's just weak to say "where is this" and when it is shown to thenm say "That's not what I meant, I meant some other impossible thing to find and I'm just being difficult". lol

You say yourself you know of it, but that it's not a sport....

I give up.

You guys think whatever you like I guess. No skin off my crack.

SavvySavage
01-31-2012, 01:07 PM
I think I posted a couple of vids of that.

Also, Why are people trying to disconnect san shou from Kung Fu anyway? It's pretty much directly related. That's just weak to say "where is this" and when it is shown to thenm say "That's not what I meant, I meant some other impossible thing to find and I'm just being difficult". lol

You say yourself you know of it, but that it's not a sport....

I give up.

You guys think whatever you like I guess. No skin off my crack.

Dude, I never mentioned san shao at all.

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 01:11 PM
Dude, I never mentioned san shao at all.

general thread comment, not directed at you. :)

sanjuro_ronin
01-31-2012, 01:11 PM
Again, all I am saying is that if you go to the website that has the most videos online and search for a style of kung fu ( any style really) what you get are videos of forms, complaicent training and some clips from kung fu movies ( I am not including the charlatans and those trying to sell themselves).
You do NOT see fighting.
If you key in Wing Chun you see forms, demos, wooden dummies and movie clips, but very rarely any clips of people actually fighting.
Same thing with me beloved Hung Kuen and you can go down the list.
I am not saying that those clips shoudln't be there because we ALL know that kung fu is more than just fighting.
I am saying that the FACT that fighting clips are RARE is something quite disturbing since we are talking about MARTIAL arts.
I mean, if you don't fight with it, what's the difference between what you are doing and performance arts?

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 01:15 PM
Again, all I am saying is that if you go to the website that has the most videos online and search for a style of kung fu ( any style really) what you get are videos of forms, complaicent training and some clips from kung fu movies ( I am not including the charlatans and those trying to sell themselves).
You do NOT see fighting.
If you key in Wing Chun you see forms, demos, wooden dummies and movie clips, but very rarely any clips of people actually fighting.
Same thing with me beloved Hung Kuen and you can go down the list.
I am not saying that those clips shoudln't be there because we ALL know that kung fu is more than just fighting.
I am saying that the FACT that fighting clips are RARE is something quite disturbing since we are talking about MARTIAL arts.
I mean, if you don't fight with it, what's the difference between what you are doing and performance arts?

Nothing.

Why fixate on other people's stuff. If you like Kung Fu and fight with it, film yourself doing that and post it. I mean, if you feel that's where it needs to go, then it kind of falls on you to take it there don't you think?

sanjuro_ronin
01-31-2012, 01:17 PM
Nothing.

Why fixate on other people's stuff. If you like Kung Fu and fight with it, film yourself doing that and post it. I mean, if you feel that's where it needs to go, then it kind of falls on you to take it there don't you think?

It's not about fixating on other peoples stuff, its about giving this forum a kick in the ass.
Its too ****ing quiet !!
LOL !
Heck, I have had to hang around in the WC forum for Christ sakes !! *shudders*

sanjuro_ronin
01-31-2012, 01:19 PM
Its not about everyone having to fight all the time.
But it is about one simple thing:
If you have never fought on a regular basis ( and MA MUST do that at some point in their MA lives or they can't truly call themselves MARTIAL artists and most certainly not fighters) then what have you done in your MA that makes you a practioner of a MARTIAL art?

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 01:20 PM
It's not about fixating on other peoples stuff, its about giving this forum a kick in the ass.
Its too ****ing quiet !!
LOL !
Heck, I have had to hang around in the WC forum for Christ sakes !! *shudders*

I occasionally train with guys from all sorts of backgrounds.
I use my kung fu and train what they train.
It keeps me honest.
:D

It's not that quiet in here. lol

But still, wtf? the wing chun forum? really? wouldn't you rather pay 60 dollars for a copy of MW3 and be called gay by hundreds of 12 year olds over and over again? It's kind of the same thing isn't it?

(There that should liven it up)

sanjuro_ronin
01-31-2012, 01:23 PM
I occasionally train with guys from all sorts of backgrounds.
I use my kung fu and train what they train.
It keeps me honest.
:D

It's not that quiet in here. lol

But still, wtf? the wing chun forum? really? wouldn't you rather pay 60 dollars for a copy of MW3 and be called gay by hundreds of 12 year olds over and over again? It's kind of the same thing isn't it?

(There that should liven it up)

I view the WC forum as a type pf self-flagelation ( is that the word?)

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 01:34 PM
I view the WC forum as a type pf self-flagelation ( is that the word?)

Oh god...I hope so..

wenshu
01-31-2012, 02:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgQyiEWdlNQ

bawang
01-31-2012, 02:25 PM
I view the WC forum as a type pf self-flagelation ( is that the word?)

you mean self-fellatio.

GeneChing
01-31-2012, 02:38 PM
you mean self-fellatio. If that was possible, do you think anyone here would find the time to post on this forum?

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 02:50 PM
If that was possible, do you think anyone here would find the time to post on this forum?

nah, we'd all be creeping on Seane Corn galleries at yoga.com or something... :p

Hebrew Hammer
01-31-2012, 03:17 PM
If that was possible, do you think anyone here would find the time to post on this forum?

Gene, speak for yourself...if there's a will there's a way...or so I've heard.

GeneChing
01-31-2012, 03:29 PM
You get a lot of dogs.

Lucky dogs.

bawang
01-31-2012, 04:41 PM
If that was possible, do you think anyone here would find the time to post on this forum?

i dont come a lot anymore, but i dont do the fallatio. i pay vietnamese woman on spadina avenue to do it for me.

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 04:59 PM
Sweet lord... you have no shame.
This is the hallmark of a comedian. :p

David Jamieson
01-31-2012, 04:59 PM
You get a lot of dogs.

Lucky dogs.

This place needs a like button... :p

Ray Pina
01-31-2012, 06:30 PM
Ray, all you're doing here is displaying a complete lack of understanding what Kung Fu is.

San Shou IS the venue for sportive combative aspect of Kung Fu.

Or would you enter the ring to box a guy with a sword?

lol

No. I understand.

Of all the Kung Fu people on this board, how many have competed in a sanctioned San Da event?

If you fight San Da. You train San Da. You don't spend 90% of your time doing drunk and animal forms, lion dancing, and enter the ring.... doesn't happen. Which is why you have over 90% of the "kung fu" guys here without fight experience.

If your training is legit, you can enter a boxing match and box well. You can enter kick boxing and do well. You can enter wrestling and do well.... you might not stand out, because there are millions of people focused exclusively on winning each of those venues. But, the vast majority, most, Kung FU players are incapable and thus unwilling to compete in these venues.

I don't argue about these things. It's obvious. Fact..... Kung Fu been dead long time now.

YouKnowWho
01-31-2012, 06:40 PM
Kung Fu been dead long time now.

Kung Fu is not dead. It takes 10 years to train your head lock to cause enough pain on your opponent's skull to force him to tap out. The problem is how many people are willing to spend 10 years in that "painful pole hanging training"?

GeneChing
01-31-2012, 06:49 PM
I'll be honest. I haven't fought in a tournament since I was a teenager. If you put me in the cage now, I would get such a whupping, well, it wouldn't even be funny. Does this mean I can't fight?

In contrast, as I've mentioned countless times here before, I supervise the containment of emergency psychiatric crisis interventions with several organizations. This has put me in combat situations more times than I can count. I've faced down all sorts of patients (I hesitate to call them 'opponents') in real world situations, including many armed ones. True, I've never tried to knock one of my patients out (thought about it, but that's just not how we roll).

And I love drunken style. I'm a little too old for all the ditang now, but I deploy drunken style tactics all the times with my patients. It sort of levels the playing field. I'm totally serious about this.

Drake
01-31-2012, 07:39 PM
Gene,
Does this mean there is a "Drunken vs. Crazy" two-man form out there? If so, I want vids. I.WANT.VIDS.

SPJ
01-31-2012, 09:21 PM
in actual fight, it is over in a few seconds.

sometimes even just one encounter, it is over.

nothing to watch really, it happens so fast and it is over.

--

to make things interesting and last longer

yes, people scripted or dramatized the ring "fights".

--

such is the life, too.

:(

David Jamieson
02-01-2012, 05:45 AM
Training to fight competitively is what it is.
I don't think it's the best on offer for reality.

It's good for a lot, I love to do vigorous exercise, bag work, weights, mitts, drills etc etc. But will that give me an edge? Nope, not much of one. Too many variables in the sense of reality.

That will give me an edge in a competitive environment though I absolutely agree.

That ring is a safe place though, even when a guy is elbowing your head into the mats you're still safe and you can get out of there with the help of ref or a tap or an indication that you give up.

That doesn't cut it when you're stepping out of your office at 9 o'clock in the evening and get surrounded by some desperate crack heads.

Now, does any training give you an edge in that scenario? Not fight training, but mental acuity, awareness and an ability to keep your wits will do something for you here, or maybe not, it really depends doesn't it?

But, Kung Fu has allowed me to not get fired up and not lose it and to approach a violent situation with as clear a mind as I can muster. Meditation, study of human nature, observation of people, having relationships with many others from various strata of the socio-economic circumstance and so on. Ability to communicate clearly and so on.

Nobody can say there is no value in stamina and conditioning training.
Nobody can say that their training is better, it's not. It's just training and to that end, Kung Fu is far from dead. lol

It isn't going to be any more a sport than what it has already adapted for that.

GeneChing
02-01-2012, 10:29 AM
Gene,
Does this mean there is a "Drunken vs. Crazy" two-man form out there? If so, I want vids. I.WANT.VIDS. If only, Drake, if only. In my case, to be more precise, it would be Drunken vs. Drunken, of which there are many cinematic examples, and sometimes Drunken vs. Trippin or Drunken vs. Crackhead, either of which remains to be seen on YouTube...yet.

A common misconception about Drunken style is that it might work in a ring/cage environment. Drunken style is really just an elaborate feint to set up a sucker punch. You can't really sucker punch someone in the ring/cage. Once the bout starts, you know you are going to fight. On the street, that threshold between combat and walking away isn't as clear, which is where drunken style comes into play. It's a perfect example of why, while success in the ring/cage is admirable, it is still an extrapolation from an actual street fighting. I explained this in detail in my Tiger Claw Blog: Kids vs. Drunken Style (https://www.tigerclaw.com/blog/2011/05/kids-vs-drunken-style/).

Ray Pina
02-01-2012, 11:37 AM
It takes 10 years to train your head lock to cause enough pain on your opponent's skull to force him to tap out. The problem is how many people are willing to spend 10 years in that "painful pole hanging training"?

Or you can learn how to apply a proper choke, cut off the blood and oxygen within the first month of training. Doesn't take anything special... show up to the class cycle dealing with that lock, train it hundreds of times in the course of a single three class a week. You'll apply it hundreds of times on different body types. Have it applied to you. Get to try it for real in free play.

This is why BJJ is successful. No secrets.... train properly and with devotion = measurable results.

Ray Pina
02-01-2012, 11:45 AM
Training to fight competitively is what it is.
I don't think it's the best on offer for reality.

Its beneficial to train with a goal. Set goals.... competition is not only a great was to drive one to train and evolve to a higher level, it provides instant feedback on results. The opportunity to again focus your training and goals.

There is no comparison between those that compete and those that don't.

Now, if Kung Fu is training with a focus on reality, how are they obtaining that goal (forms? lion dancing?) and how are they judging their feedback (medals for forms? red envelopes?)

Lucas
02-01-2012, 11:50 AM
Now, if Kung Fu is training with a focus on reality, how are they obtaining that goal (forms? lion dancing?) and how are they judging their feedback (medals for forms? red envelopes?)

nope. this is done through sparring and competition, just like everyone else...or wait are you saying that you judge all cma on the people that focus on forms and lion dancing? maybe i should base all my judgments on boxing by those that focus soley on cardio boxing at the health club...it would be the exact same thing you're doing... do you even realize it?

wenshu
02-01-2012, 11:51 AM
A common misconception about Drunken style is that it might work in a ring/cage environment.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvkRpykP6mQ

I would offer this as a counter point but his actual record says different.

David Jamieson
02-01-2012, 11:52 AM
Its beneficial to train with a goal. Set goals.... competition is not only a great was to drive one to train and evolve to a higher level, it provides instant feedback on results. The opportunity to again focus your training and goals.

There is no comparison between those that compete and those that don't.

Now, if Kung Fu is training with a focus on reality, how are they obtaining that goal (forms? lion dancing?) and how are they judging their feedback (medals for forms? red envelopes?)

Ray, as you don't know any forms how can you speak to them? As you have never Lion danced, where are you coming from with your criticism?

Dude, your line is old, tired, boring and unintelligent. I don't know why you even bother. If anyone is a fraud, it's you.

Booted by a good teacher, beating up on guys half your size, ambushing people with good intention and so on. That's what you're about by your own admission and submission of vids and then when you went to compete you got your ass handed to your promptly and now, you're an armchair ufc nutrider who still goes back and beats on teenagers until they leave.

dime a dozen martial arts fraud = you.

so there.

Brule
02-01-2012, 11:53 AM
Or you can learn how to apply a proper choke, cut off the blood and oxygen within the first month of training. Doesn't take anything special... show up to the class cycle dealing with that lock, train it hundreds of times in the course of a single three class a week. You'll apply it hundreds of times on different body types. Have it applied to you. Get to try it for real in free play.

This is why BJJ is successful. No secrets.... train properly and with devotion = measurable results.

BJJ is not the be all and end all of MA. Take out BJJ and your last line applies to anything one decides to do. It's all about what you want.

David Jamieson
02-01-2012, 11:55 AM
Just turn your forearm so the blade cuts into the guys face, neck, wherever, it doesn't matter.

YKW, you probably already know this to be true. You don't need to have the neck in a lock to cause pain or get the takeout.

GeneChing
02-01-2012, 12:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvkRpykP6mQ

I would offer this as a counter point but his actual record says different.Emanuel Augustus is a new one to me. He's got some moves for sure.

I used to fence against this guy who was very unconventional and danced about like that. I never bested him. Once, in the middle of a bout, he balanced his epee point up pommel down on his palm for a split second. His opponent was so stunned that he failed to take advantage.

There is a certain psychological advantage to such theatrics, which could indeed invalidate my point about sucker punching and drunken style in the ring. There's something really infuriating when an opponent gets all gamey like that, and that can certainly rattle your own game.

Yao Sing
02-01-2012, 01:11 PM
The relaxed fighter has an advantage, something the MMA guys should know. Drunken Boxing simulates the relaxed state of being drunk without the negative physical effects of actually being drunk.

YouKnowWho
02-01-2012, 01:21 PM
Just turn your forearm so the blade cuts into the guys face, neck, wherever, it doesn't matter.

YKW, you probably already know this to be true. You don't need to have the neck in a lock to cause pain or get the takeout.

It depends on when you are. If you are

- behind your opponent, the neck is the best place.
- in front of your opponent, the temple and jaw are are much better place.

As far as the pain,

temple > jaw > neck

GeneChing
02-01-2012, 01:29 PM
The relaxed fighter has an advantage, something the MMA guys should know. Drunken Boxing simulates the relaxed state of being drunk without the negative physical effects of actually being drunk. All fighting styles endeavor to stay relaxed. Drunken style is more about feigning sloppiness.

Drake
02-01-2012, 01:30 PM
Ray, as you don't know any forms how can you speak to them? As you have never Lion danced, where are you coming from with your criticism?

Dude, your line is old, tired, boring and unintelligent. I don't know why you even bother. If anyone is a fraud, it's you.

Booted by a good teacher, beating up on guys half your size, ambushing people with good intention and so on. That's what you're about by your own admission and submission of vids and then when you went to compete you got your ass handed to your promptly and now, you're an armchair ufc nutrider who still goes back and beats on teenagers until they leave.

dime a dozen martial arts fraud = you.

so there.

Just remember, this is the same guy who cut up his heavy bag because he thought it had the mark of the debil on it. And by mark of the debil, I mean the Everlast logo.

YouKnowWho
02-01-2012, 01:33 PM
Or you can learn how to apply a proper choke, cut off the blood and oxygen within the first month of training. Doesn't take anything special... show up to the class cycle dealing with that lock, train it hundreds of times in the course of a single three class a week. You'll apply it hundreds of times on different body types. Have it applied to you. Get to try it for real in free play.

This is why BJJ is successful. No secrets.... train properly and with devotion = measurable results.

To develop your skill through sparring/wrestling can only help you to reach to a certain level. You can play boxing 15 rounds daily but if you don't work on heavy bag, your punching power will not be developed just from boxing match. That "work on heavy bag" requires time and effort and that's called "Kung Fu".

Lucas
02-01-2012, 01:46 PM
All fighting styles endeavor to stay relaxed. Drunken style is more about feigning sloppiness.

thats what she said!!

David Jamieson
02-01-2012, 04:27 PM
thats what she said!!

she can't fake sloppy. you either is or you isn't.

Ray Pina
02-02-2012, 06:58 AM
nope. this is done through sparring and competition, just like everyone else..

OK. Now we're getting somewhere.

So if TCMA is competing "just like everyone else", why are they not represented in the UFC? Why is there not 1 TCMA pro MMAer?

Ray Pina
02-02-2012, 07:02 AM
Ray, as you don't know any forms how can you speak to them? As you have never Lion danced, where are you coming from with your criticism?

I know the complete form sets of Issin-Ryu and Wing Chun. I know most of the major Hung Gar forms.

I lion danced for 3 years.

I have 8 years of Hsing-I and Taiji training.

I am more experienced and versed in TCMA than most here.

I have also fought at the amateur and semi-pro level..... that's always why I don't talk nonsense and speak straight. I have nothing to gain by knocking or supporting TCMA or MMA.

If TCMA was good at producing fighters, we'd see SOME good TCMA fighters. We see none in open venues vs other styles.

David Jamieson
02-02-2012, 07:21 AM
I know the complete form sets of Issin-Ryu and Wing Chun. I know most of the major Hung Gar forms.

I lion danced for 3 years.

I have 8 years of Hsing-I and Taiji training.

I am more experienced and versed in TCMA than most here.

I have also fought at the amateur and semi-pro level..... that's always why I don't talk nonsense and speak straight. I have nothing to gain by knocking or supporting TCMA or MMA.

If TCMA was good at producing fighters, we'd see SOME good TCMA fighters. We see none in open venues vs other styles.

:rolleyes: Dude, you constantly talk nonsense. TCMA does have good fighters, but as soon as you tell someone they trained TCMA, you and the rest of the nutriders will pipe up with your rants of "that's not tcma" etc.

It's just garbage talk. You generate a lot of garbage talk. A lot of it.

Go to bullcrappo if you want people to press their face to your ass.

David Jamieson
02-02-2012, 07:26 AM
OK. Now we're getting somewhere.

So if TCMA is competing "just like everyone else", why are they not represented in the UFC? Why is there not 1 TCMA pro MMAer?

Because it's UFC.

Man, what is wrong with your brain?

SPJ
02-02-2012, 08:31 AM
wu lin da hui

it is all staged and about entertainment

however,

it is nice to see some schools sending their students

to "fight"

promotion, promotion, promotion

etc etc etc.

:)

Ray Pina
02-02-2012, 08:39 AM
:rolleyes: Dude, you constantly talk nonsense. TCMA does have good fighters.

Who are the top 3 pro TCMA MMA fighters? What camp do they fight out of and what are their records?


.... someone's going to be busy with google to answer that one.:)

..... and at the best is they'll find some semi-pro MMAer who has a Kung Fu fetish, fights in back woods venues. Does Wing Chun on the side. With Bruce Lee posters on his wall.


..... funny 'cause it's mostly true.


There are no TCMA pro MMAers the way there are pro Thai Boxers, pro BJJers..... men who have forged their warrior spirit with their base style, then supplemented here and there.

No one is doing d!ck with Wing Chun..... because it is wrong at its foundation. You don't see Ba Gua fighters or Tai Chi fighters either. Because competitive fighters are different than cooperating students.

Don't paint me as crazy for calling a spade a spade. TCMA has no fighters capable of competing at the high level of today's modern sport fighters. That's a fact!

Pork Chop
02-02-2012, 10:30 AM
I have also fought at the amateur and semi-pro level..... that's always why I don't talk nonsense and speak straight. I have nothing to gain by knocking or supporting TCMA or MMA.

If TCMA was good at producing fighters, we'd see SOME good TCMA fighters. We see none in open venues vs other styles.

What the heck are you talking about?
There's a WC guy from the east coast (NYC?) that wasn't doing too bad.
Pat Barry trained with Shawn Liu & at Shaolin before going mma.
Lorenz Larkin listed his main style as kung fu (yeah he got beat by Mo Lawal).
There are guys out there.
There are a bunch in san shou, some that cross over into muay thai, and a few that go full mma.

Yes, they aren't the majority.
Yes, they usually have to leave their traditional school if they want to focus seriously on competition full-time.
But they do exist...
You're going to see a lot more of them at mma events in china.

or is it that you're not going to give credit where credit is due until you see tiger claws and chi sao in mma?

David Jamieson
02-02-2012, 10:46 AM
Ray, that's about as troll as it gets?

Tell me, where are all the great POLO stylists in mma?

where is the UFC professional fishermen?

I don't see anyone in there with a sword.

recognize your diatribe in here anywhere? :rolleyes:

Lucas
02-02-2012, 10:46 AM
to be competative, say like a muay thai fighter, you will find cma guys cross train in bjj generally. but not all. you need to check out mma in china bro...you honestly think that non of those guys use cma? its fracking china man...sheez. your bubble is way to small. go look up china top team and many other mma teams that operate in china.

this list of 3 took me about 2 mintues to do while i was working, because they are all in threads here on this forum under the mma section. didnt even have to use my brain. honestly i dont feel like putting much effort in here....again.

do i think they are the best? idk, but i would put money down, Ray, that any of these 3 would beat you in the cage. Zhang made it into ufc. yes he lost, but that doesnt mean much, he made it to ufc. thats a big achievement, and his record is pretty **** good regardless. these are only 3 of many cma guys that are training and cross training to compete in mma.

tiequan zhang - shuai jiao
dan hawely - mantis
Yao Hung Gong - shuai jiao

Drake
02-02-2012, 11:11 AM
I went to the UFC with a broadsword. A lot of people died before someone politely told me I was in the wrong venue.

Then I cut off his head and bathed in his blood.

Ray Pina
02-02-2012, 01:15 PM
Because it's UFC.

Man, what is wrong with your brain?

What does 'because its UFC" mean?

There are currently Karate, boxers, BJJ, wrestlers, freestylers, Judo, Thai Boxers.... claimed as primary disciples by active UFC fighters.


Why are there no Wing Chun, Taiji, Hung Gar, Ba Gua, Hsing-I, Shaolin fighters?

sanjuro_ronin
02-02-2012, 01:18 PM
I went to the UFC with a broadsword. A lot of people died before someone politely told me I was in the wrong venue.

Then I cut off his head and bathed in his blood.

That was you?
Sick ******* and nice form by the way.

Ray Pina
02-02-2012, 01:18 PM
What the heck are you talking about?
There's a WC guy from the east coast (NYC?) that wasn't doing too bad.
Pat Barry trained with Shawn Liu & at Shaolin before going mma.
Lorenz Larkin listed his main style as kung fu (yeah he got beat by Mo Lawal).

Who?




Yes, they usually have to leave their traditional school if they want to focus seriously on competition full-time.
Because their TCMA school doesn't suffice. You don't see active MMAers or BJJ black belts go to Wing Chu. It's ALWAYS the other way around.

sanjuro_ronin
02-02-2012, 01:37 PM
It makes sense that, REGARDLESS of background, once someone has decided to go the MMA route that they join a MMA gym.
Much like when a pro MT fighter decided to go the pro boxing route he get himself a pro boxing coach ( regardless of how good his hands already are).

There is no reason for ANY MMA guy to start doing any TCMA system unless they simply want to try it and like it.

Lucas
02-02-2012, 01:44 PM
Ray must not consider shuai jiao chinese martial arts.....cuz there are a **** ****ING TON of shuai jiao in mma...

Ray Pina
02-02-2012, 01:44 PM
Good point.

But at the same time, who are these coaches at MMA camps ... they're champion wrestlers, champion thai boxers, champion BJJers.

Then there are guys studying with folks who use to do TCMA and open up San Da and then MMA gyms (flavor of the times). They'll go out and right away higher a legit BJJ and/or Thai Boxer.

This is the reality. Broad sword killing sprees are like stand in horse stance and do sil lum toa and be a fighter..... fantasy.

Ray Pina
02-02-2012, 01:45 PM
Ray must not consider shuai jiao chinese martial arts.....cuz there are a **** ****ING TON of shuai jiao in mma...

Who currently in the UFC lists shuai jiao as their primary style?

Ray Pina
02-02-2012, 01:50 PM
Has the argument really become that their are a ton of closet TCMAers hiding out in the UFC?:)

That's just very entertaining for me.





It's great being in an argument you know you can't lose.

Let's turn on Spike UFC night and see who's fighting..... Oh, it's so and so, the Wing Chun guy from Canada fighting out of Bernard Gould's Wing Chun Academy.

Main event: Black Taoist, Ba Gua extraordinare against a man of equal size who spent 10 years in the ring instead of walking circles in NY parks.

sanjuro_ronin
02-02-2012, 01:50 PM
Mt, BJJ, Wrestling are all primary systems for MMA because they are highly effective, easy to learn, designed for fighting full contact and they have no "un-necessary" bagage attached to them that slows down the process of going from training to fighting.

Ray Pina
02-02-2012, 01:51 PM
Mt, BJJ, Wrestling are all primary systems for MMA because they are highly effective, easy to learn, designed for fighting full contact and they have no "un-necessary" bagage attached to them that slows down the process of going from training to fighting.

ding ding ding ding

BINGO!

Lucas
02-02-2012, 01:52 PM
Who currently in the UFC lists shuai jiao as their primary style?



teiquan zhang.....

sanjuro_ronin
02-02-2012, 01:56 PM
ding ding ding ding

BINGO!

And TCMA are NOT like that, at least not anymore.
BUT if you strip them down to THAT, IMO, they cna be just as effective as MT, BJJ and Wrestling.
The issue is that there is no market for that now because Sanshou has taken that rout, especially in the one place that it could have been done, China.
In China you have TCMA going to sanshou and then MMA or staying in sanshou if they prefer.
Sanshou is what TCMA is when you strip it down to what is needed for combat effectivness.

Neeros
02-02-2012, 01:58 PM
It makes sense that, REGARDLESS of background, once someone has decided to go the MMA route that they join a MMA gym.
Much like when a pro MT fighter decided to go the pro boxing route he get himself a pro boxing coach ( regardless of how good his hands already are).

There is no reason for ANY MMA guy to start doing any TCMA system unless they simply want to try it and like it.

I went from MMA-Style training in the past to Shaolinquan now. I did so because I think it is superior. I am certainly getting many more benefits from my training nowadays as well.

Gru Bianca
02-02-2012, 01:58 PM
Who?



Because their TCMA school doesn't suffice. You don't see active MMAers or BJJ black belts go to Wing Chu. It's ALWAYS the other way around.

Ok, now, seriously, this is the last time I post this being it the third time; hopefully you'll not disregard it this time, you do then really......you really are more deaf then a real deaf person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaUxI6R-79o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXWL7YwJY6o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAwXVtbJXC8&feature=related

and you can find more. They are pure Kung Fu in the stand up part,.... good enough for you?????

Lucas
02-02-2012, 01:59 PM
And TCMA are NOT like that, at least not anymore.
BUT if you strip them down to THAT, IMO, they cna be just as effective as MT, BJJ and Wrestling.
The issue is that there is no market for that now because Sanshou has taken that rout, especially in the one place that it could have been done, China.
In China you have TCMA going to sanshou and then MMA or staying in sanshou if they prefer.
Sanshou is what TCMA is when you strip it down to what is needed for combat effectivness.

well you silly man. obviously china is not allowed to be considered an adequate country for judging cma in mma or any other faucet of cma fighting...you silly silly man you.

sanjuro_ronin
02-02-2012, 02:00 PM
well you silly man. obviously china is not allowed to be considered an adequate country for judging cma in mma or any other faucet of cma fighting...you silly silly man you.

*Puts on silly man hat and dances around*
I'm sexy and I know it !!!:D

wenshu
02-02-2012, 02:05 PM
teiquan zhang.....

Goal posts moving in 3, 2, . . .

Pork Chop
02-02-2012, 02:56 PM
Who?

shawn obasi



Because their TCMA school doesn't suffice. You don't see active MMAers or BJJ black belts go to Wing Chu. It's ALWAYS the other way around.

you see muay thai guys switch to mma gyms all the time.
if you go to a muay thai gym to prepare for a mma match, you're probably not going to win.
if you go to a mma gym to prepare for a muay thai match, there's a good chance you're not going to do well (most of the muay thai programs i've seen at mma gyms have been less than stellar).

Lucas
02-02-2012, 03:08 PM
*Puts on silly man hat and dances around*
I'm sexy and I know it !!!:D

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gKzxVxK0wRg/S9VxzBAzjbI/AAAAAAAABX8/sY_VNzJt_70/s1600/pope-benedict-saturno-hat.jpg

Yao Sing
02-02-2012, 03:59 PM
or is it that you're not going to give credit where credit is due until you see tiger claws and chi sao in mma?

Nailed it!


Mt, BJJ, Wrestling are all primary systems for MMA because they are highly effective, easy to learn, designed for fighting full contact and they have no "un-necessary" bagage attached to them that slows down the process of going from training to fighting.


Sanshou is what TCMA is when you strip it down to what is needed for combat effectivness.

I think you mean SPORT combat. :p
How well do submissions work in a military combat situation? How about the street?

Scenario:
You walk out of <wherever> and head for your car in the parking lot. Some lowlife tries to mug you.

A. You're MMA so you take him down and while trying to submit him with an arm bar his buddy kicks you in the head, they take your money, someone finds you and calls paramedics.

B. You're TMA so you bust him up and call paramedics as you leave. He spends next few days in hospital with broken arm and ribs, maybe charged with a felony, and decides mugging for a couple bucks isn't with it. Oh, his buddy wants no part of you and runs off.

Lucas
02-02-2012, 04:39 PM
an mma practitioner is just as capable of smashing dude without going to the ground. most mma strikers would do just that. i understand where you are going with the scenarios, i just dont think its so simple as that.

you cant just expect every single mma guy to go for the ground submission. **** technically im a mma guy and i wouldnt go to the ground unless i had to.

Yao Sing
02-02-2012, 04:42 PM
I'm just doing a poor job of trying to show sport fighting and street fighting are not the same.

Ray Pina
02-02-2012, 04:43 PM
I went from MMA-Style training in the past to Shaolinquan now. I did so because I think it is superior. I am certainly getting many more benefits from my training nowadays as well.

In what way do you feel it is superior? Because this is a good point.

For my 60 year old neighbor, Taiji is superior, a better fit, than Judo.

Ray Pina
02-02-2012, 04:48 PM
Nailed it!





I think you mean SPORT combat. :p
How well do submissions work in a military combat situation? How about the street?

Scenario:
You walk out of <wherever> and head for your car in the parking lot. Some lowlife tries to mug you.

A. You're MMA so you take him down and while trying to submit him with an arm bar his buddy kicks you in the head, they take your money, someone finds you and calls paramedics.

B. You're TMA so you bust him up and call paramedics as you leave. He spends next few days in hospital with broken arm and ribs, maybe charged with a felony, and decides mugging for a couple bucks isn't with it. Oh, his buddy wants no part of you and runs off.


There is so much ignorance in this.... I'll just inform you, that BJJ and MMA have a full self-defense curriculum. You can't get rank in Gracie Jis-Jitsu without completing a physical test of these skills at each belt level to a black belt.

If you don't understand the benefit of being able to fight full intension and power and spare someone a broken limb, lack of consciousness or death by admitting defeat... as apposed to form or chi sau, it's useless.

MasterKiller
02-02-2012, 04:50 PM
I'm just doing a poor job of trying to show sport fighting and street fighting are not the same.

Everyone knows that. The disconnect is that sport-trained guys are in better shape, have better-conditioned reflexes, and are generally just better at fighting, regardless of the backdrop, because that's what they do instead of swinging Kwan Daos around.

Lucas
02-02-2012, 04:53 PM
I'm just doing a poor job of trying to show sport fighting and street fighting are not the same.

i dont think you really need to try and convince anyone of this. its a common sense kind of deal. either you got it or you dont. ;)

there are so many variables involved that make it impossible for sport fighting and actual self defense/'street fighting' to be the same. there are many aspects that are exactly the same. many that are similar, and many that are not even close.

honestly i dont give a ****, if you attack me, im going to hurt you bad if i can. i will stab you if i can, cut you if i can, and break you if i can. why? because i wont be the one starting ****, but i'll be the one trying to finish it for sure, in any way necessary.

Yao Sing
02-02-2012, 05:04 PM
If you don't understand the benefit of being able to fight full intension and power and spare someone a broken limb, lack of consciousness or death by admitting defeat... as apposed to form or chi sau, it's useless.

Dude, you're the only one talking about forms and chi sao.


Everyone knows that. The disconnect is that sport-trained guys are in better shape, have better-conditioned reflexes, and are generally just better at fighting, regardless of the backdrop, because that's what they do instead of swinging Kwan Daos around.

No, that's not at all what Ray is saying. And you don't need fight training to be in top condition. The claim is that CMA doesn't work in a fight evidenced because nobody uses it in a MMA venue.

Granted the level of training needed to compete at an advanced level is beyond your average CMA school, even some MMA schools aren't putting out top level fighters. Ray believes CMA can't compete no matter what the level of training. Ask him.

Syn7
02-02-2012, 05:59 PM
I'm just doing a poor job of trying to show sport fighting and street fighting are not the same.

Word...!!!!

Syn7
02-02-2012, 06:02 PM
In what way do you feel it is superior? Because this is a good point.

For my 60 year old neighbor, Taiji is superior, a better fit, than Judo.

Most TCMA will be better for general health and longevity than MMA. The only objective in MMA is to win without getting too hurt to fight again.

Pork Chop
02-02-2012, 09:06 PM
Everyone knows that. The disconnect is that sport-trained guys are in better shape, have better-conditioned reflexes, and are generally just better at fighting, regardless of the backdrop, because that's what they do instead of swinging Kwan Daos around.

Before this becomes another sport versus traditional flame war; the 2 are not always mutually exclusive.

There are a lot of sports guys who have a background in traditional before focusing on sport training. Many of the techniques still come from the traditional stuff, but are refined in a sport environment.

I trained traditional stuff for years before I ever touched the sport stuff.
One of my favorite kick-catch-throws comes straight out of a mantis form.
I got another kick-catch-scoop from a jow ga form that I use all the freaking time.
There are a couple xingyi techs I like to use now and then.
I have to give credit to mantis for my high kicks.
I actively try to control the center-line in sparring, and I also use a bit of gate theory.
Kung fu breathing really helps with my endurance.
I learned all my breakfalls from six months of once-a-week shuai chiao classes where all I did was break-fall; even broke out some belt-cracking when Suntzu was here.

Do I still play the forms? Yes, but not like I once did, and not as a focus of the training- more as a warm up.

I'm not doing forms competitions, playing lion (though I miss it), doing iron body or other gungs, but that doesn't mean I've completely thrown everything away.
My training's geared for sport & fitness, it's heavily flavored with muay thai, but you can't just unlearn everything you spent years doing.

I don't think the original intent of traditional was to spend all your time working on low stances and punching the air. How's working on a handful of techniques to utter mastery in a sporting environment any different than the xingyi guy who spent years in prison perfecting his pi quan?

Oh, and I think this website gives a good summary of folks from a traditional background who've done well for themselves in the sporting arena:
http://www.polariswushu.net/halloffame.html

Neeros
02-02-2012, 10:32 PM
In what way do you feel it is superior? Because this is a good point.

For my 60 year old neighbor, Taiji is superior, a better fit, than Judo.

I am 23, and my old MMA training made me feel like I was 60 for awhile. Lots of injuries unstable and prone to reinjury.

A few reasons I think my Shaolinquan/Qi Gong practice is superior to my old MMA style training:

I am no longer sustaining injury from training, instead my old injuries are healing, my body is becoming healthy, strong, and sturdy again.

I feel full of vitality after training, when I used to feel ready to throw up and pass out after some of the MMA/Western style training me and my friend used to do.

My mental focus has gone up a LOT since starting due to the focus on mind level training, I notice this in daily life the most.

It is superior in the sense that the benefits I am receiving from my practice have changed my life in a very positive direction.

I feel like I will be able to achieve my goals again, which a big part of is eventually being combat efficient, for sport and street.

These benefits are only from the introductory training. I haven't even started focusing on fighting techniques, or the "big" force building techniques yet. All foundational work right now.

I am grateful for having the opportunity to learn the traditional shaolin arts, in an age when a lot of kung fu is ridiculed for its flowery fists and embroidered kicks.

YouKnowWho
02-02-2012, 10:41 PM
I am 23, and my old MMA training made me feel like I was 60 for awhile. Lots of injuries unstable and prone to reinjury.
Are you a bit too young to feel that way? I can understand that you may feel this way when you are over 50 but not when you are only 23.

There is only a short window that you can "test" your combat skill. Try not to miss that window in your life time. :)

When you are in your

- 20, you carry a sharp light weight sword, and challenge everybody that you can find.
- 40, you carry a heavy dull sword and defeat everybody that you meet.
- 60, you no longer carry any sword. You sit on rocking chair, drink beer, smoke pipe, and watch sun set.

-N-
02-02-2012, 11:05 PM
I feel full of vitality after training, when I used to feel ready to throw up and pass out after some of the MMA/Western style training me and my friend used to do.

I think that relates more to intensity of training more than anything else.

And it's not necessarily a bad thing to push to that level.

Whether training traditional, modern, running track, doing weights, swimming, or whatever, that's the intensity you need to get to a high level of conditioning and performance.

And I'm a traditional guy, mostly.

Neeros
02-02-2012, 11:13 PM
I think that relates more to intensity of training more than anything else.

And it's not necessarily a bad thing to push to that level.

Whether training traditional, modern, running track, doing weights, swimming, or whatever, that's the intensity you need to get to a high level of conditioning and performance.

And I'm a traditional guy, mostly.

*Shrugs* If my training allows me to spar and train, and eventually fight without feeling tired or out of breath, then I will accept the lesser level of conditioning which is also incidentally less detrimental to my health in the long run. :D

SavvySavage
02-03-2012, 12:06 AM
Before this becomes another sport versus traditional flame war; the 2 are not always mutually exclusive.

There are a lot of sports guys who have a background in traditional before focusing on sport training. Many of the techniques still come from the traditional stuff, but are refined in a sport environment.

I trained traditional stuff for years before I ever touched the sport stuff.
One of my favorite kick-catch-throws comes straight out of a mantis form.
I got another kick-catch-scoop from a jow ga form that I use all the freaking time.
There are a couple xingyi techs I like to use now and then.
I have to give credit to mantis for my high kicks.
I actively try to control the center-line in sparring, and I also use a bit of gate theory.
Kung fu breathing really helps with my endurance.
I learned all my breakfalls from six months of once-a-week shuai chiao classes where all I did was break-fall; even broke out some belt-cracking when Suntzu was here.

Do I still play the forms? Yes, but not like I once did, and not as a focus of the training- more as a warm up.

I'm not doing forms competitions, playing lion (though I miss it), doing iron body or other gungs, but that doesn't mean I've completely thrown everything away.
My training's geared for sport & fitness, it's heavily flavored with muay thai, but you can't just unlearn everything you spent years doing.

I don't think the original intent of traditional was to spend all your time working on low stances and punching the air. How's working on a handful of techniques to utter mastery in a sporting environment any different than the xingyi guy who spent years in prison perfecting his pi quan?

Oh, and I think this website gives a good summary of folks from a traditional background who've done well for themselves in the sporting arena:
http://www.polariswushu.net/halloffame.html

I have to disagree with you about the bit toward the end. All pi quan means is generating force downward meaning you don't just do it the way the hsing I form is. I could think of a million(ok, maybe 6) ways that hung gar uses downward force. If you just practiced pi quan in the air while in prison I don't think that's the same as perfecting certain mma techniques since the hsing I pi quan form isn't really a technique and just a single move.

David Jamieson
02-03-2012, 06:22 AM
I personally don't think while engaged in training sparring or fighting. That is not the time to think, it is the time to act. So your training better support that action.

To that end, if you train to fight in sports venues, then you do that.
If you train to cultivate an entire outlook and way of life (I prefer this way) then do that.

sport training WILL leave you injured and WILL take your suppleness away.
You will have a hard time finding any oldey timey sport fighters that are of sound mind and body but you will find many old kung fu guys who are still supple and still able to get through a day with a clear mind and able body despite their longness of tooth. I"m not saying you won't find any, but they are not in abundance like they are with Kung Fu. That says volumes to me about what is good training for one's whole life.

THIS is what I strive for. I could give a crap about scenarios where x vs y vs d vs u can happen, cage matches etc etc. That's fun and good for a very short period of time in your life. If you extend that sort of thing into your middle age you will not be able to have much in the way of comfort as you get beyond middle age.

Not so with Kung Fu.

If people invade my home, I'm not going to rely on my grappling and boxing skills. If I get attacked on the street I am going to look for escape or to do as much damage as I can and escape, I'll use the environment around me as a weapon (throw people into things that are hard or sharp etc). TO that end, Kung Fu training is perfectly acceptable as the chosen method.

Occasional testing of ideas on entry and so on or sparring with another to learn the rhythm of combat is good. But full on sport combat training cycles when you don't even go in a ring for money? nope. From my perspective, that's kind of dumb, hard on the bod unduly and for the same reasons they don't let people join the army and do it after 42, I suggest you don't either.

enjoy life! It's way better when you can!

sanjuro_ronin
02-03-2012, 06:51 AM
Nailed it!

I think you mean SPORT combat. :p
How well do submissions work in a military combat situation? How about the street?

Scenario:
You walk out of <wherever> and head for your car in the parking lot. Some lowlife tries to mug you.

A. You're MMA so you take him down and while trying to submit him with an arm bar his buddy kicks you in the head, they take your money, someone finds you and calls paramedics.

B. You're TMA so you bust him up and call paramedics as you leave. He spends next few days in hospital with broken arm and ribs, maybe charged with a felony, and decides mugging for a couple bucks isn't with it. Oh, his buddy wants no part of you and runs off.

As someone with years of bouncing experience and a military record I can say that they work just fine under both circumstances.
But I assume you were just being funny and that you don't believe something so silly, right?

sanjuro_ronin
02-03-2012, 06:53 AM
Every Sport MA came from a TMA, that is their core.
The difference is that they "discarded" what didn't work in terms of high percentage and discarded what was either obsolete or irrelevant to fighting.

bawang
02-03-2012, 07:06 AM
sport training WILL leave you injured and WILL take your suppleness away.
You will have a hard time finding any oldey timey sport fighters that are of sound mind and body but you will find many old kung fu guys who are still supple and still able to get through a day with a clear mind and able body despite their longness of tooth. I"m not saying you won't find any, but they are not in abundance like they are with Kung Fu. That says volumes to me about what is good training for one's whole life.


the spirit and purpose of chinese martial arts is to teach you to die for your country. if you want to live you will die. but if you accept death you will live.

living a long healthy life has nothing to do with chinese martial arts.

Ray Pina
02-03-2012, 07:19 AM
The claim is that CMA doesn't work in a fight evidenced because nobody uses it in a MMA venue.


No. The claim is that Kung Fu as a practical, realistic modern martial art is dead. The evidence of this, NO ONE uses it in the UFC.... the highest level of martial arts competition in the Western World.


Also, to just make it clear. How many Kung Fu posters are registered here?

Let's start a list of members who have 1 State Sanctioned fight:
Ray Pina




ANother list of those who have more than 5 state sanctioned fights:
Ray Pina





I left room for Sanjiro and the three or four other guys. This will be the shortest list in this sites history. Though I'm prepared for efforts to hide it with pictures of half naked chicks and snide remarks. Anything but to focus on the real issue at hand. Nobody here fights but everybody here claims real skill:p

Ray Pina
02-03-2012, 07:24 AM
Every Sport MA came from a TMA, that is their core.
The difference is that they "discarded" what didn't work in terms of high percentage and discarded what was either obsolete or irrelevant to fighting.

The truth is, if you have to really fight, you spend your time conditioning and preparing your technique for battle.

You wouldn't spend your time lion dancing. Honestly, you think the best fighter, with the highest skill level and most respect is the kook under the lion getting a cabbage head?

Lion Dancing is 100% a ploy by teachers to get additional money during New Years and neighborhood dry cleaning openings.

Form is 100% ploy to drag along dopey students to dumb or timid to ask, when are we going to spar? Why don't any of the seniors go out and fight? Why do we go to tournaments with guys dressed like *******es doing drunk form when others are doing flying arm bars, leg kicks to someone's thigh, flying knees?

Why are we playing while others are gaining real skill?

sanjuro_ronin
02-03-2012, 07:25 AM
No. The claim is that Kung Fu as a practical, realistic modern martial art is dead. The evidence of this, NO ONE uses it in the UFC.... the highest level of martial arts competition in the Western World.


Also, to just make it clear. How many Kung Fu posters are registered here?

Let's start a list of members who have 1 State Sanctioned fight:
Ray Pina




ANother list of those who have more than 5 state sanctioned fights:
Ray Pina





I left room for Sanjiro and the three or four other guys. This will be the shortest list in this sites history. Though I'm prepared for efforts to hide it with pictures of half naked chicks and snide remarks. Anything but to focus on the real issue at hand. Nobody here fights but everybody here claims real skill:p

Ah dude, I haven't fought in ages, since 2000 I think.
I am no longer a fighter nor do I consider myself one anymore.
I am trying my bets to be a martial artist now.
Before that, yes I competed in MT, Kyokushin, Judo, Boxing, TKD and even MMA.
That is what we are suppose to do in the fighter stage of our development.
But we can't do that forever.
At least I can't.
But I never competed at the higher or elite levels.
Sure I was good at the provincial ( state) level and even competed at the N.American level at times, but it wasn't even close to being pro much less the top 10 level, that is an area that I can't even beging to fathom the skill and dedication that one needs to succeed.

sanjuro_ronin
02-03-2012, 07:26 AM
The truth is, if you have to really fight, you spend your time conditioning and preparing your technique for battle.

You wouldn't spend your time lion dancing. Honestly, you think the best fighter, with the highest skill level and most respect is the kook under the lion getting a cabbage head?

Lion Dancing is 100% a ploy by teachers to get additional money during New Years and neighborhood dry cleaning openings.

Form is 100% ploy to drag along dopey students to dumb or timid to ask, when are we going to spar? Why don't any of the seniors go out and fight? Why do we go to tournaments with guys dressed like *******es doing drunk form when others are doing flying arm bars, leg kicks to someone's thigh, flying knees?

Why are we playing while others are gaining real skill?

Part of being immersed in a TMA is the trappings that come with it.
While they don't make you a better fighter, you can become a better MA because of them.
Just saying.

Pork Chop
02-03-2012, 09:04 AM
I have to disagree with you about the bit toward the end. All pi quan means is generating force downward meaning you don't just do it the way the hsing I form is. I could think of a million(ok, maybe 6) ways that hung gar uses downward force. If you just practiced pi quan in the air while in prison I don't think that's the same as perfecting certain mma techniques since the hsing I pi quan form isn't really a technique and just a single move.

Well my point was that traditional people are taught to admire old masters who perfected single techniques, or a small subset of techniques. At the same time, they disparage the sport people who do the same thing.

David Jamieson
02-03-2012, 09:04 AM
the spirit and purpose of chinese martial arts is to teach you to die for your country. if you want to live you will die. but if you accept death you will live.

living a long healthy life has nothing to do with chinese martial arts.

I don't give a crap about your bogus nationalistic propaganda stuff Bawang.

I practice kung fu as a trasformative process to the ends of physical and mental cross ties and development, and that is how I use it.

I could give a crap about the whole banners and trumpets junk. Really. My joints and limbs stay supple and able through the constant use of them. To affect the most areas of the body, I use Kung Fu, Chi Kung and Yoga as well as zen meditation and tai chi.

Shaolin zen has nothing to do with your militaristic understanding of chinese martial arts. You limit yourself to that one limb of them. That's fine. If you don't grow out of it and move beyond that one limb you are missing out on a lot.

side effect is when I hit someone, it's hard, it hurts and they will have second thoughts about tangling with me. Unless of course they beat the livig crap out of me, which I haven't had happen to me in a longer timespan than you've been alive.

nobody needs any training whatsoever for school yard scuffles and the like. You either can do it and face it, or you can't. period.

sanjuro_ronin
02-03-2012, 09:06 AM
Well my point was that traditional people are taught to admire old masters who perfected single techniques, or a small subset of techniques. At the same time, they disparage the sport people who do the same thing.

Well, if Wong Fei Hung invented the triangle choke and called it the "shadowless snake", maybe it would be more accepted, LOL !

David Jamieson
02-03-2012, 09:08 AM
I was never taught to ball sniff.

If it's not in the hands that touch mine, it is not a concern.

I admire methods that work. I admire teachings.
Cults of personality are for the simple minded.

Pork Chop
02-03-2012, 09:08 AM
Every Sport MA came from a TMA, that is their core.
The difference is that they "discarded" what didn't work in terms of high percentage and discarded what was either obsolete or irrelevant to fighting.

No martial artist is ever going to be able to use 100% of their style, that's not how it works.
The good ones are able to use a few of the techniques.
The great ones take those techniques to a very high level.
I guess I don't understand the hate for the sport when the sport guys are just choosing those techniques based on what works for the ring...

sanjuro_ronin
02-03-2012, 09:09 AM
No martial artist is ever going to be able to use 100% of their style, that's not how it works.
The good ones are able to use a few of the techniques.
The great ones take those techniques to a very high level.
I guess I don't understand the hate for the sport when the sport guys are just choosing those techniques based on what works for the ring...

Don't get it either.

Ray Pina
02-03-2012, 09:11 AM
Part of being immersed in a TMA is the trappings that come with it.
While they don't make you a better fighter, you can become a better MA because of them.
Just saying.

Well, one can claim horse stance benefits and structure benefits to holding the lion head. But these will not make you a better fighter. If you already know how to use your stance and use your structure, then your skill is being enhanced.

But lion dancing will not create the skill. Just benefit attributes. Same for form.

wenshu
02-03-2012, 09:26 AM
I wonder why I never see Ray on Sherdog gloating about his 50/50 record. . .

Couldn't make the varsity team so he makes himself feel better by proudly proclaiming how much of a better fighter he is than any of the asthmatics in the Dungeons and Dragons club.

hskwarrior
02-03-2012, 09:30 AM
I wonder why I never Ray on Sherdog gloating about his 50/50 record. . .

Couldn't make the varsity team so he makes himself feel better by proudly proclaiming how much of a better fighter he is than any of the asthmatics in the Dungeons and Dragons club.

I'm still trying to comprehend why he tries to equate stance training and lion dancing to fighting?!?!?! He can't even sit in a stance more than 20 seconds.

All hail the D&D Dungeon Master LMAO

Ray Pina
02-03-2012, 09:34 AM
I started fighting out in my 30s as an amateur.

I might actually, overall, excluding BJJ, just pure fighting, be more like 40/60.

Those are still fights I won which were scheduled against young men in their 20s prepared to fight for money in front of friends and family and for honor.... but I learned more and was driven to improve by the losses.

If I would have won early, I would have brushed off the whole thing and been stuck where I was.

Go give it a try, see for yourself.

Ray Pina
02-03-2012, 09:37 AM
I'm still trying to comprehend why he tries to equate stance training and lion dancing to fighting?!?!?! He can't even sit in a stance more than 20 seconds.

All hail the D&D Dungeon Master LMAO

Fool.


We typically do burpees and after every ten hold a deep stance. Also sit against wall with 45lbs weight. Hold horse with team mate on shoulder, squats with team mate on shouder etc., etc. etc.

Do you think your Kung Fu legs are as powerful and explosive as a competitors? :)

Pork Chop
02-03-2012, 09:38 AM
Don't get it either.

Found some stuff I thought would add to the discussion; going back to sport training killing you:

It is correct to say that intense training is something that young people do.
As you age, you must adjust the intensity.
Old time athletes usually stay active in their sport by becoming trainers.

Old muay thai guys who still got it:
Sagat & Putlorlek. (http://www.mymuaythai.com/archives/put-lorlek-and-sagat-petchyindee/) Videos in the link, article gives them relevance.
Kru Yodtong (http://sityodtong.com/about/kru-yodtong/)
Apidej (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apidej_Sit_Hrun)
Master K (http://www.masterkelbowko.com/masterk/masterk.htm)
Kru Pong (http://www.txmma.com/2011/08/09/life-as-a-houston-muay-thai-fighter-nethaneel-mongonia-of-the-kru-pong-fight-team/)

I can find a lot more if necessary.
Thing is, in Thailand, muay thai has a stigma.
Being so closely associated with gambling, it's not considered a respected way to make money; and the money's not very good.
Families who have staggering debt often indenture the kids to a muay thai camp in order to pay them off - hence, a lot of fighters quitting the sport once they're financially independent.

Just because people don't compete, doesn't mean they're completely broken.
I imagine Couture's going to be actively running his gym for a good long time.
Some boxers don't do as well long term because of the sheer amount of head trauma they take; but the ones who didn't take too much punishment, stay healthy as long as they choose to be active. Joe Frazier was very active in his gym for a long time.

Ray Pina
02-03-2012, 09:38 AM
All you all do is talk and criticize.

Go out and do something for your system other than milk students perpetuating the weakness of TCMA.

Go sign up for the next amateur MMA in your area. Go to Grapplers Quest.... actually compete.

Then come back and talk.

sanjuro_ronin
02-03-2012, 09:40 AM
Elite level sports can cause elite level wear and tear, this is just common sense.
That said I know many old timers ( over 60) doing Boxing, wrestling, judo and so forth.
if you push your body to its limits then you will have the wear and tear from doing that, if you never push your body, you won't.

hskwarrior
02-03-2012, 09:41 AM
Fool.


We typically do burpees and after every ten hold a deep stance. Also sit against wall with 45lbs weight. Hold horse with team mate on shoulder, squats with team mate on shouder etc., etc. etc.

Do you think your Kung Fu legs are as powerful and explosive as a competitors?

LMAO.....were you looking in the mirror when calling yourself that? FOOL! LMAO

oh you need to sit against a wall to have someone standing on your stance? LMAO.....TCMA people NEVER sit against the wall while stance training. EVER.


I do know that a competitor who never did TCMA stance training wouldn't fair well against someone who has.....im saying stance against stance. you have blinders on.

All you all do is talk and criticize.

Go out and do something for your system other than milk students perpetuating the weakness of TCMA.

Go sign up for the next amateur MMA in your area. Go to Grapplers Quest.... actually compete.

Then come back and talk.


Blah blah blah......LMAO......your mind is hella limited. LOL. stuck on one mode. ....LOL

Pork Chop
02-03-2012, 09:42 AM
All you all do is talk and criticize.
Go out and do something for your system other than milk students perpetuating the weakness of TCMA.
Go sign up for the next amateur MMA in your area. Go to Grapplers Quest.... actually compete.
Then come back and talk.

Don't think this was directed at me, but I thought I'd shamelessly plug the fact that my coach and I have plans to have me fighting again later this year. I'm gonna friggin win. :D

sanjuro_ronin
02-03-2012, 09:43 AM
Don't think this was directed at me, but I thought I'd shamelessly plug the fact that my coach and I have plans to have me fighting again later this year. I'm gonna friggin win. :D

Unless you get kicked in the balls and poked in the eye:p

wenshu
02-03-2012, 09:52 AM
Don't think this was directed at me, but I thought I'd shamelessly plug the fact that my coach and I have plans to have me fighting again later this year. I'm gonna friggin win. :D

At least here you can feel secure in the notion that even if you lose you can still gloat.

Jokes aside. Get 'em.

Pork Chop
02-03-2012, 09:53 AM
I do know that a competitor who never did TCMA stance training wouldn't fair well against someone who has.....im saying stance against stance. you have blinders on.

Just to play devil's advocate:
Holding a stance to what end?
It's pretty well established (at least in the athletic performance community) that weight bearing & explosive movements are better for improving the explosive strength needed for footwork & strikes than holding static stances with bodyweight.
Judo players & wrestlers are very good at "sinking their root" and yet (comparatively) rarely hold deep, static stances.
Why does tcma prioritize stance work so much?

hskwarrior
02-03-2012, 10:07 AM
Just to play devil's advocate:
Holding a stance to what end?
It's pretty well established (at least in the athletic performance community) that weight bearing & explosive movements are better for improving the explosive strength needed for footwork & strikes than holding static stances with bodyweight.
Judo players & wrestlers are very good at "sinking their root" and yet (comparatively) rarely hold deep, static stances.
Why does tcma prioritize stance work so much?

No end, because one could train his stance till death. but i play with mr pina over this issue because he keeps trying to equate or connect this kind of training to the "ACT OF FIGHTING"........i see his despise for TCMA but still don't understand if he hates it so much why does he spend so much time on a KUNG FU FORUM with people who don't agree with his views. if he thinks people will all of a sudden jump on his bandwagon, he's wrong. i haven't seen ONE person on his wagon yet.

every kung fu person i know knows stance training isn't a tool for fighting. Mr Pina only thinks one way.......FIGHTING. but even you know pork chop that there is more, much much more to kung fu than just fighting. Fighting has no culture other than violence. kung fu has way much more.

Although i still do my stances, i go to the gym and work out. I don't ever believe to be a good fighter you have to have a good stance. yet, i do know that compared to someone who doesn't stance train his root isn't as strong as someone who does......my opinion only.

wenshu
02-03-2012, 10:13 AM
Judo players & wrestlers are very good at "sinking their root" and yet (comparatively) rarely hold deep, static stances.
Why does tcma prioritize stance work so much?

I think the idea of static stance training to the exclusion of other methods (plyometrics, heavy lifting) is a corrupted misconception.

I think that static holds for time have a lot of benefits but not to the exclusion of dynamic strength.

Unfortunately because there is so much bull**** perpetuated about martial arts people tend to only think in stark black and white, either/or modes. So you either practice static stance training and nothing dynamic, or you only squat heavy and do explosive dynamic exercises and never practice static holds.

I find that one of the benefits of static training is that it does not trigger a burdensome recovery deficit. Nevertheless practice in complete isolation it is practically useless.

SavvySavage
02-03-2012, 10:14 AM
I wonder why I never see Ray on Sherdog gloating about his 50/50 record. . .

Couldn't make the varsity team so he makes himself feel better by proudly proclaiming how much of a better fighter he is than any of the asthmatics in the Dungeons and Dragons club.

You just referred to Gung fu guys as the asthmatic whatever's. Are aware you did that?

wenshu
02-03-2012, 10:19 AM
You just referred to Gung fu guys as the asthmatic whatever's. Are aware you did that?

I laugh at those who cannot laugh at themselves.

Ray Pina
02-03-2012, 10:29 AM
.... still waiting for the list of active UFC fighters proudly claiming TCMA as their core style.:)

Ray Pina
02-03-2012, 10:30 AM
.... wish I could get a dollar for every day that goes buy until a UFC fighters lists any TCMA style as his core.:D

That would be a great retirement plan.

Pork Chop
02-03-2012, 10:37 AM
.... still waiting for the list of active UFC fighters proudly claiming TCMA as their core style.:)

have you even read my posts on the subject?

Ray Pina
02-03-2012, 10:40 AM
Did I miss some names of active UFC fighters claiming TCMA?

If so, can you make it easy for me. Just list the top 3. Or even 1.

Pork Chop
02-03-2012, 10:44 AM
Did I miss some names of active UFC fighters claiming TCMA?

If so, can you make it easy for me. Just list the top 3. Or even 1.

Pat Barry & Dan Hardy both studied at Shaolin.

Snipsky
02-03-2012, 10:47 AM
I can name one guy for SURE that will never make it to the UFC or ever get any fame in his liftetime......

RAY PINA

Pork Chop
02-03-2012, 11:02 AM
Saw this and it tripped me out...

http://video.ufc.tv/photo_galleries/web/web-138087085JH026_UFC_143_Diaz.jpg

hskwarrior
02-03-2012, 11:04 AM
hahahahahaha nice!!!!!

David Jamieson
02-03-2012, 12:17 PM
Found some stuff I thought would add to the discussion; going back to sport training killing you:

It is correct to say that intense training is something that young people do.
As you age, you must adjust the intensity.
Old time athletes usually stay active in their sport by becoming trainers.


My point was made regarding ramping it way down as you age. I can find you many western boxers of age who train others and will do an exhibition with an old friend etc as shown above.

The older guys are NOT in the flow anymore and not in the cycle but may very well have kept up the solo training and ramped it way down to the fitness and ritual aspects of the training. The flow drills are very form like for instance in MT training.

And the really traditional MT guys still fight and if they learned it old school way, do the weapons forms from krabi krabong as well. MT is a pretty traditional art, in fact it's really traditional.

Kung Fu doesn't compete as it did at one time, that's true.
There are a lot of schools that do not participate in full contact fighting. That's true.

There are not many if any mma guys who your average gawker would say are Karate, or MT or this or that. But there are boat loads of guys who started exactly in those places.

In mma it has been found that kickboxing and wrestling and throwing, combined together and that use high % techniques create the venue that offers the most ranges to see people make combat in.

Boxing does it with the hands, wrestling without the strikes, judo without the strikes, kick boxing without the wrestling, and so on. Kung Fu practice has been sorted into many more aspects than just the fighting aspect.

It's staggering to look at someone who doesn't get this and say "really? you don't see this?" and THEY DON'T!

Blows my mind how beside themselves people get when they utterly demand that unless you turn that delicious piece of chocolate covered strawberry into a plumber's wrench then you don't know what you're doing! Sometimes it is amazing, other times it's stunning.