Arguing Online

[WingChunABQ]

Gotta say, MA forums have lots and lots of piddle matches going on in them. I think we all know why:

http://www.thehighdefinite.com/2012/01/arguing-online/

[GeneChing]

Just like in MA practice, sparring is an important part of training. Our forum debates are exactly like sparring, only with words. Sure, a lot of it is 'dirty pool' style flaming as there's minimal rules governing our debates, but it's also training for real world arguments we might encounter. Just as you should spar with your body, you should spar with your philosophy. You should spar with your mind.

Occasionally we do get of an intelligent debate, usually in the subforums when the trolls aren't looking.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just like in MA practice, sparring is an important part of training. Our forum debates are exactly like sparring, only with words. Sure, a lot of it is 'dirty pool' style flaming as there's minimal rules governing our debates, but it's also training for real world arguments we might encounter. Just as you should spar with your body, you should spar with your philosophy. You should spar with your mind.

Occasionally we do get of an intelligent debate, usually in the subforums when the trolls aren't looking.

Gene has toe kicked the correct in the vital point !
Mental sparring is just as vital to the mind is physical sparring is to the body.

[David Jamieson]

The problem with an online battle of the wits is that so often we must face an unarmed opponent...

[GeneChing]

Argument Clinic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y)

[David Jamieson]

Hey now, I came here to be hit over the head with a mallet.

SR is great to discuss with. I usually have to go fairly deep into my pocket to get the ticket stubs with which to counter.

Unlike some others, who I merely can pick up a gum wrapper off the ground and tell them it's a ticket stub and they get on board. lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

Argument Clinic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y)

I'm not even sure how to respond to that...
:confused:

As agree with DJ more often than not and when we don't we both can at least understand the point the other is making.

As for being big men, I can't speak for DJ, but in my case....That's what she said !:D

[GeneChing]

I'm not even sure how to respond to that...
:confused: Post a nacho ninjette pic. FTW!

[wenshu]

The Art of Being Right by Arthur Schopenhauer (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Being_Right)


Controversial Dialectic is the art of disputing, and of disputing in such a way as to hold one's own, whether one is in the right or the wrong - per fas et nefas.[1] A man may be objectively in the right, and nevertheless in the eyes of bystanders, and sometimes in his own, he may come off worst. For example, I may advance a proof of some assertion, and my adversary may refute the proof, and thus appear to have refuted the assertion, for which there may, nevertheless, be other proofs. In this case, of course, my adversary and I change places: he comes off best, although, as a matter of fact, he is in the wrong.

If the reader asks how this is, I reply that it is simply the natural baseness of human nature. If human nature were not base, but thoroughly honourable, we should in every debate have no other aim than the discovery of truth; we should not in the least care whether the truth proved to be in favour of the opinion which we had begun by expressing, or of the opinion of our adversary. That we should regard as a matter of no moment, or, at any rate, of very secondary consequence; but, as things are, it is the main concern. Our innate vanity, which is particularly sensitive in reference to our intellectual powers, will not suffer us to allow that our first position was wrong and our adversary's right. The way out of this difficulty would be simply to take the trouble always to form a correct judgment. For this a man would have to think before he spoke. But, with most men, innate vanity is accompanied by loquacity and innate dishonesty. They speak before they think; and even though they may afterwards perceive that they are wrong, and that what they assert is false, they want it to seem the contrary. The interest in truth, which may be presumed to have been their only motive when they stated the proposition alleged to be true, now gives way to the interests of vanity: and so, for the sake of vanity, what is true must seem false, and what is false must seem true.

However, this very dishonesty, this persistence in a proposition which seems false even to ourselves, has something to be said for it. It often happens that we begin with the firm conviction of the truth of our statement; but our opponent's argument appears to refute it. Should we abandon our position at once, we may discover later on that we were right after all: the proof we offered was false, but nevertheless there was a proof for our statement which was true. The argument which would have been our salvation did not occur to us at the moment. Hence we make it a rule to attack a counter-argument, even though to all appearances it is true and forcible, in the belief that its truth is only superficial, and that in the course of the dispute another argument will occur to us by which we may upset it, or succeed in confirming the truth of our statement. In this way we are almost compelled to become dishonest; or, at any rate, the temptation to do so is very great. Thus it is that the weakness of our intellect and the perversity of our will lend each other mutual support; and that, generally, a disputant fights not for truth, but for his proposition, as though it were a battle pro aris et focis. He sets to work per fas et nefas; nay, as we have seen, he cannot easily do otherwise. As a rule, then, every man will insist on maintaining whatever he has said, even though for the moment he may consider it false or doubtful.



Claim Victory Despite Defeat

This, which is an impudent trick, is played as follows: When your opponent has answered several of your questions without the answers turning out favourable to the conclusion at which you are aiming, advance the desired conclusion, - although it does not in the least follow, - as though it had been proved, and proclaim it in a tone of triumph. If your opponent is shy or stupid, and you yourself possess a great deal of impudence and a good voice, the trick may easily succeed. It is akin to the fallacy non causae ut causae.

Use Seemingly Absurd Propositions

If you have advanced a paradoxical proposition and find a difficulty in proving it, you may submit for your opponent's acceptance or rejection some true proposition, the truth of which, however, is not quite palpable, as though you wished to draw your proof from it. Should he reject it because he suspects a trick, you can obtain your triumph by showing how absurd he is; should he accept it, you have got reason on your side for the moment, and must now look about you; or else you can employ the previous trick as well, and maintain that your paradox is proved by the proposition which he has accepted. For this an extreme degree of impudence is required; but experience shows cases of it, and there are people who practise it by instinct.

Arguments Ad Hominem

Another trick is to use arguments ad hominem, or ex concessis.[4] When your opponent makes a proposition, you must try to see whether it is not in some way - if needs be, only apparently - inconsistent with some other proposition which he has made or admitted, or with the principles of a school or sect which he has commended and approved, or with the actions of those who support the sect, or else of those who give it only an apparent and spurious support; or with his own actions or want of action. For example, should he defend suicide, you may at once exclaim, "Why don't you hang yourself?" Should he maintain that Berlin is an unpleasant place to live in, you may say, "Why don't you leave by the first train?" Some such claptrap is always possible.

Make Your Opponent Angry

This trick consists in making your opponent angry; for when he is angry he is incapable of judging aright, and perceiving where his advantage lies. You can make him angry by doing him repeated injustice, or practising some kind of chicanery, and being generally insolent.

It Applies in Theory, But Not in Practice

"That's all very well in theory, but it won't do in practice." In this sophism you admit the premisses but deny the conclusion, in contradiction with a well-known rule of logic. The assertion is based upon an impossibility: what is right in theory must work in practice; and if it does not, there is a mistake in the theory; something has been overlooked and not allowed for; and, consequently, what is wrong in practice is wrong in theory too.

Become Personal, Insulting, Rude

A last trick is to become personal, insulting, rude, as soon as you perceive that your opponent has the upper hand, and that you are going to come off worst. It consists in passing from the subject of dispute, as from a lost game, to the disputant himself, and in some way attacking his person. It may be called the argumentum ad personam, to distinguish it from the argumentum ad hominem, which passes from the objective discussion of the subject pure and simple to the statements or admissions which your opponent has made in regard to it. But in becoming personal you leave the subject altogether, and turn your attack to his person, by remarks of an offensive and spiteful character. It is an appeal from the virtues of the intellect to the virtues of the body, or to mere animalism. This is a very popular trick, because every one is able to carry it into effect; and so it is of frequent application. Now the question is, What counter-trick avails for the other party? for if he has recourse to the same rule, there will be blows, or a duel, or an action for slander.

[Lucas]

Post a nacho ninjette pic. FTW!
*flex*

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2463&stc=1&d=1107204880

[Featherstone]

can you order that dip on martialartsmart.com? :D

[YouKnowWho]

The difference between "discussion" and "argument" is:

- In discussion, you express your opinion and others express their opinions. It's fine if you and others don't agree.
- In argument, you think you are right and others are wrong. You want to force others to accept your opinion.

[wenshu]

*flex*

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2463&stc=1&d=1107204880

Oh. It's on.


"Bring out the gimp (http://www.gimp.org/)."

"Gimps sleeping."

"Well, I guess you're gonna have to go wake him up."

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lc30jvzzBK1qe0eclo1_500.gif

[Lucas]

thats no nacho ninjette!!

heres the nacho ninjette cheese fairy

http://chocolatecoveredxanax.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/velveeta.jpg

[Lucas]

a battle for power within the nacho ninjette order.

http://www.ubetoo.com/xodman/51560/sthumb51560-1-2.jpg

[wenshu]

http://i.imgur.com/Ado8S.jpg

[Lucas]

Respecccccc!!!!!!!!!! I bow to you, but only as an equal, let us vanquish the unworthy!

[Lucas]

in truth if you photoshoped that, then i must bow to you as a master, because i only found mine....shhhh

[wenshu]

http://i.imgur.com/9iMth.jpg

[GeneChing]

I'm not stooping to photoshop. We have a full-time professional graphic arts crew here and that just wouldn't be fair. So I'm just doing image searches. Strangely, if you search nacho ninjettes, many of the links send you right back to our forum. ;)

I found some cool shirts at least.
http://rlv.zcache.com/nacho_girl_so_stop_staring_tshirt-p235271846353966699ziqda_400.jpg
http://rlv.zcache.com/nacho_girl_tshirt-p235510805744630680c2jp_400.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lSWURufnWTc/S9c76wTlzoI/AAAAAAAADj0/HbNzHPCgq70/s1600/nacho+girl.png

[GeneChing]

nachos uber alles.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Hvzx2Mf9nBU/ShvgeEc5oxI/AAAAAAAAAk4/wHOIN9eZ4VU/s400/Nachos.jpg

http://news.makemeheal.com/images/ali-landry-plastic-surgery.jpg

http://gluttoner.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/doritos-girl.jpg

http://0.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/d/3/collegehumor.2c738cddae7b0c5448a0281325fe2912.jpg

wins any online argument

[Lucas]

http://i.imgur.com/9iMth.jpg

i bow to da masta!!! you win bro, dont hurt me :eek:

freakin cracked me up man

[wenshu]

You really don't want to know the lengths I am willing to go to avoid working.

[David Jamieson]

Oh, a teamster eh?

[wenshu]

I'm not stooping to photoshop. We have a full-time professional graphic arts crew here and that just wouldn't be fair.

I guess that would fall under a misappropriation of Nacho resources, huh?

[GeneChing]

However tempting, no photoshop for my nacho ninjettes.

Everywhere else is a different matter entirely.

http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2009/02/doritos-bikini-17436-1235492917-2.jpg

http://artkicksass.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/the_kings_nachos.jpg

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/9/18/128977678557786837.jpg

I gotta stop now. I'm getting hungry.

[Syn7]

Gotta say, MA forums have lots and lots of piddle matches going on in them. I think we all know why:

http://www.thehighdefinite.com/2012/01/arguing-online/

I don't think I have ever seen a forum that didn't have a fair share of bickering going on. Some more than others, especially when it's a site dedicated to topics that people have passion for. Like kung fu.

[Syn7]

The difference between "discussion" and "argument" is:

- In discussion, you express your opinion and others express their opinions. It's fine if you and others don't agree.
- In argument, you think you are right and others are wrong. You want to force others to accept your opinion.

There it is.......

There are a lot of people here who will quote you and respond to the first sentence and nothing more because they never actually read any further. They are too busy thinking about what they want to say to go and read what everybody else is saying.

These people aren't here for anyone's benefit aside from their own little ego's that for some pathetic reason need that validation of seeing somebody online say "Hey, you are absolutely right. Why didn't I think of that. Wow you're so smart. Here let me get on my knees and.....".

These kinds of people can only hide for so long. Eventually they expose their own weak needs.

[dirtyrat]

Just like in MA practice, sparring is an important part of training. Our forum debates are exactly like sparring, only with words. Sure, a lot of it is 'dirty pool' style flaming as there's minimal rules governing our debates, but it's also training for real world arguments we might encounter. Just as you should spar with your body, you should spar with your philosophy. You should spar with your mind.

Occasionally we do get of an intelligent debate, usually in the subforums when the trolls aren't looking.

i was taught 'An empty can makes the most noise' mentality. that we kung fu men should be men of action first. while i enjoy a good debate, i agree with YKW that there's a difference btwn a discussion and an argument.

but then i could just be an old stick in the mud and that i should just loosen up and have a little fun like how sanjuro ronin seems to be having.... :D

[YouKnowWho]

孟子(Meng Zi) said, "I don't like to argue but sometime I just don't have choice." The funny thing is when he tried to explain that he was not arguing with you back then, he was arguing with you at this moment.

Sometime if people responds to your post, you ignore his post just try to avoid argument, you may be just too rude and ignore others opinions. If you are not careful, your response will be considered as "disagree with others and start your argument."

When someone doesn't agree with you, your respond to his disagreement, that's argument by definition.

I'll consider the following as "discussion" that A only expresses his opinion "once" and never response to other's disagreements. It's "rude' attitude IMO.

A: My opinion is ...
B: You are wrong ...
C: I disagree with you ...

I'll consider the following as "argument".

A: My opinion is ...
B: You are wrong ...
C: I disagree with you ...
A: Why did you say that I was wrong?

A pure discussion (ignore all disagreements) is very difficult to have. How far are you willing to go (response to other's disagreement) is difficult to adjust.

[Syn7]

孟子(Meng Zi) said, "I don't like to argue but sometime I just don't have choice." The funny thing is when he tried to explain that he was not arguing with you back then, he was arguing with you at this moment.

Sometime if people responds to your post, you ignore his post just try to avoid argument, you may be just too rude and ignore others opinions. If you are not careful, your response will be considered as "disagree with others and start your argument."

When someone doesn't agree with you, your respond to his disagreement, that's argument by definition.

I'll consider the following as "discussion" that A only expresses his opinion "once" and never response to other's disagreements. It's "rude' attitude IMO.

A: My opinion is ...
B: You are wrong ...
C: I disagree with you ...

I'll consider the following as "argument".

A: My opinion is ...
B: You are wrong ...
C: I disagree with you ...
A: Why did you say that I was wrong?

A pure discussion (ignore all disagreements) is very difficult to have. How far are you willing to go (response to other's disagreement) is difficult to adjust.

I think you can counter points in discussion. It's the intent that defines the convo. If both are listening to eachother and building off of that, cool. If they are just talking at eachother and not hearing anyone else, they are arguing.

[WingChunABQ]

POINT #1: I originally posted that link because it was a cartoon of a cute puppy and bunny making a snarky, ironic point about bickering on the internet. Cartoons, puppies, bunnies and irony are good.

POINT #2: I don't mind online discussions, even with disagreements. However, as some above have pointed out, "discussing" in person is much different than doing so online, since the anonymity and distance of the internet lower people's mental filters, paving the way for lots of mental diarrhea. Still I wasn't making a point about this or any forum in particular because again: puppies, bunnies, irony.

POINT #3: You have no idea the degree to which you have enriched my life via the introduction of Nacho Ninjettes. Happy, happy day.

[bawang]

Gotta say, MA forums have lots and lots of piddle matches going on in them. I think we all know why:

http://www.thehighdefinite.com/2012/01/arguing-online/

do not speak, dirty wing chun animal.

[WingChunABQ]

do not speak, dirty wing chun animal.

grunt! grunt snort snort grunt!

Translation: Wing Chun people are among the most argumentative out there. I've often wondered why this is. Perhaps it started with the post Yip Man Hong Kong generation and was perpetuated by the westerners who took up the art. Maybe it's that the aggressive nature of the style infiltrates every aspect of our dealings with people. Maybe it's because we're totally superior to everyone on earth. Especially me. I'm the most superior. I'm like, Uber Superior. Me Uber Alles.

Yeah.

[sanjuro_ronin]

grunt! grunt snort snort grunt!

Translation: Wing Chun people are among the most argumentative out there. I've often wondered why this is. Perhaps it started with the post Yip Man Hong Kong generation and was perpetuated by the westerners who took up the art. Maybe it's that the aggressive nature of the style infiltrates every aspect of our dealings with people. Maybe it's because we're totally superior to everyone on earth. Especially me. I'm the most superior. I'm like, Uber Superior. Me Uber Alles.

Yeah.

Its because WC people are inbreed, in other words they are so used to training with each other ( within their own version of the style) that the whole notion of another world existing out there with things being done different is just blasphemous !!

[Brule]

Its because WC people are inbreed, in other words they are so used to training with each other ( within their own version of the style) that the whole notion of another world existing out there with things being done different is just blasphemous !!

doubt it. They argue because it's in their line, you know, how wing chun being invented by a woman and all. Nah, women don't argue :rolleyes:

[JamesC]

Probably has something to do with the way they're always clinching their sphincters...:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

doubt it. They argue because it's in their line, you know, how wing chun being invented by a woman and all. Nah, women don't argue :rolleyes:

Hmmm, you may have a point there :D

[WingChunABQ]

Its because WC people are inbreed, in other words they are so used to training with each other ( within their own version of the style) that the whole notion of another world existing out there with things being done different is just blasphemous !!

You actually may have a point there. I think it's further exacerbated by the whole "JKD" split, where some people went with the idea and other, uh, 'orthodox' (for lack of a better term) WC people saw it as an assault on the system. It's a system with an identity crisis, I guess.

[WingChunABQ]

Probably has something to do with the way they're always clinching their sphincters...:rolleyes:

GASP!
[Defensively throws hands over my backside]

[Syn7]

None of you know the real footwork though!!!

[YouKnowWho]

Wing Chun people are among the most argumentative out there.

Have we ever seen a

- prey mantis guy argue with another prey mantis guy?
- Baji guy argue with another Baji guy?
- CLF guy argue with another CLF guy?
- long fist guy argues with another long fist guy?
- SC guy argue with another SC guy?
- boxer argues with another boxer,
- wrestler argues with another wrestler?
- BJJ guy argues with another BJJ guy?
- Judo guy argues with another Judo guy?

[Shǎguā]

I've just been warned by my browser that page 2 of this thread contains a link to a site which distributes malware. (news.makemeheal.com)

[Shǎguā]

Have we ever seen a

- prey mantis guy argue with another prey mantis guy?
- Baji guy argue with another Baji guy?
- CLF guy argue with another CLF guy?
- long fist guy argues with another long fist guy?
- SC guy argue with another SC guy?
- boxer argues with another boxer,
- wrestler argues with another wrestler?
- BJJ guy argues with another BJJ guy?
- Judo guy argues with another Judo guy?

Sure! It's just that they argue with their skills instead of with their words.

I think they call it "sparring" or "fighting" or some such thing.

[Syn7]

Sure! It's just that they argue with their skills instead of with their words.

I think they call it "sparring" or "fighting" or some such thing.

You mean they actually resist each other? That is not how TCMA is done. Compliant enemies only pleeeeaase!!!

[WingChunABQ]

Have we ever seen a

- prey mantis guy argue with another prey mantis guy?
- Baji guy argue with another Baji guy?
- CLF guy argue with another CLF guy?
- long fist guy argues with another long fist guy?
- SC guy argue with another SC guy?
- boxer argues with another boxer,
- wrestler argues with another wrestler?
- BJJ guy argues with another BJJ guy?
- Judo guy argues with another Judo guy?

Honestly, I don't follow too many discussions on those arts so I wouldn't know.

What I DO know from a decade and a half of practicing WC is that we are a pi**y lot who love to split hairs and argue with one another. And it's dumb.

[WingChunABQ]

Sure! It's just that they argue with their skills instead of with their words.

I think they call it "sparring" or "fighting" or some such thing.

Pure silliness! Now let me tell you how you're doing things wrong!

[YouKnowWho]

Its because WC people are inbreed, in other words they are so used to training with each other ( within their own version of the style) that the whole notion of another world existing out there with things being done different is just blasphemous !!
Since the

- SC guys wear short sleeve jacket,
- Judo guys wear long sleeve uniform,
- Wrestlers wear T-shirt,
- Sumo guys wear no shirt,

their throwing skill all look different. There are even different western wrestling that one allows "head lock" while the other dis-allowed. Trying to say one is right and the others are all wrong is kind silly IMO.

I used to compare the "difference" between Chinese culture and American culture. After I had married to an American wife, I like to compare the "similarity" between Chinese culture and American culture.

[Syn7]

So is you're daughter not full Asian then. She looks it to me. Or is that from a different marriage.

Did you come to America grudgingly? Wanting to retain as much heritage as possible rather than fully assimilating? I ask cause you mentioned you compared differences at first suggesting you had a bias. If it's all too personal don't worry, it's cool. I ask everyone questions like that. I like to learn from people directly rather than just subscribing to generalized ideals(as much as I can anyways).

It's interesting how falling for somebody from another culture can really help you appreciate that culture. I almost married a Latina and now I can't go a week without real Mexican food. Her gramma made the best enchilada thingys I ever had. But she showed me a side of her culture I never would have seen if it hadn't been for the strong connection between us. Friends just don't immerse themselves in each other like lovers do.

[YouKnowWho]

My American wife can cook Chinese, Mexican, Italian, and American. She also has black belt in TKD and SC. She is indeed a beautiful woman. :D

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/6852/robinsidekick.jpg

My daughter is from my previous marriage. I was bias 1st (you know, 5000 years of Chinese culture vs. 200 years of American culture :o) but my 1 and 1/2 year in Lawrence, Kansas (when I was a student in the University of Kansas at Lawrence) had changed my attitude completely.

- I was walking in snow with grocery (I didn't have car), a car stopped by me and gave me a lift.
- I was walking on snow up hill. I lose my footing, a hand appeared in front of me and pulled me up.
- I forgot a ball pen in KU cafeteria. A beautiful American girl followed me 3 miles in snow and gave me my ball pen back when I arrived my apartment. We did date for a year until she gradulated and jointed in the peace corps oversea.

None of the above could happen in Taiwan or China. :(

[Syn7]

My American wife can cook Chinese, Mexican, Italian, and American. She also has black belt in TKD and SC. She is indeed a beautiful woman. :D

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/6852/robinsidekick.jpg

My daughter is from my previous marriage. I was bias 1st (you know, 5000 years of Chinese culture vs. 200 years of American culture :o) but my 1 and 1/2 year in Lawrence, Kansas (when I was a student in the University of Kansas at Lawrence) had changed my attitude completely.

- I was walking in snow with grocery (I didn't have car), a car stopped by me and gave me a lift.
- I was walking on snow up hill. I lose my footing, a hand appeared in front of me and pulled me up.
- I forgot a ball pen in KU cafeteria. A beautiful American girl followed me 3 miles in snow and gave me my ball pen back when I arrived my apartment. We did date for a year until she gradulated and jointed in the peace corps oversea.

None of the above could happen in Taiwan or China. :(

the girl with the pen was after your body, clearly. Three miles for a 30 cent pen? It had nothing to do with the pen, lol.

Do you train with your wife?

Yeah I was pretty sure your daughter wasn't half white.

In China did you have many misforunes where people didn't help you up? Would a person in China not drive you home?

If so do you feel we are more generous to strangers is that because we can afford to be or because we have a nicer societal disposition or what?

This is a current topic since that video of the kid being run over and everyone walked passed came out in the news.

[YouKnowWho]

If so do you feel we are more generous to strangers is that because we can afford to be or because we have a nicer societal disposition or what?
I had a dog in Taiwan when I was a kid, I could only feet him rice daily. Today I have a 2 lb 10 oz Yorkie. I feed her steak and smoke salmon daily. IMO, the moral standard has to do with the living standard. If you don't know where your next meal will be, it's hard for you to care too much about others.

[Syn7]

I had a dog in Taiwan when I was a kid, I could only feet him rice daily. Today I have a 2 lb 10 oz Yorkie. I feed her steak and smoke salmon daily. IMO, the moral standard has to do with the living standard. If you don't know where your next meal will be, it's hard for you to care too much about others.

I wrote out a big response and then lost it. Doesn't matter. I was just agreeing with you.

[David Jamieson]

If so do you feel we are more generous to strangers is that because we can afford to be or because we have a nicer societal disposition or what?

This is a current topic since that video of the kid being run over and everyone walked passed came out in the news.


The is a fundamental ethical difference. For instance, in North America and much of Western Europe, the ethic at play is derived from judeo-christian belief. The golden rule, do unto others, the least among you can be the greatest and so on. This has permeated the cultures for more than a thousand years.

To the point where the intolerant and unaccepting are regarded as losers and troglodytes. The idea of political correctness when referring to different strat of society was born in this culture, the mixed culture, the culture that has everybody else within it.

Most of the world is NOT multi cultural, is NOT tolerant or accepting of differences or ideas and functions from a rather alien ethic to your average NA or western euro.

Is it superior? I don't know. It's only been around for a short while. As in within MY lifetime.

When I was a wee kid, there were Anglo-Scots Canadians, some immigrants from eastern europe and natives in the reserve systems and blacks form the east coast. Now, Canada is thoroughly multi cultural with Toronto being probably the most culturally and ethnically diverse city on the planet.

It has it's trials and tribulations, but if you want to be in a place where prejudice paints you as an idiot and throwback, come on to Toronto! lol It's probably the most interesting model of multiculturalism available.

I honestly don't know if it the best way forward.

[Syn7]

I'm with Mark Steyn on this one. the multi-cultural experiment has been an abysmal failure. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the Neo Con douchebag very much but I do agree on this one. We cannot un-do 50,000 years of segregation with a fake democracy and way more money than we ever deserved.

I am not a racist or prejudiced against other cultures. I just don't think we should be mixing so fast. It's obvious that we are headed in the direction whether we want to or not. In fact I would go as far as to say that integration is natural. But we are moving waay too fast and it's destroying us.

Just out of curiosity what you say the definition of canadian culture is? or american? We're a HUGE place with many distinct cultures even before the modern mass immigration trends. It was hard enough doing that balancing act let alone having to throw in a dash of every culture on earth with a giant portion of asiatic (chinese and indian for the most part).

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm with Mark Steyn on this one. the multi-cultural experiment has been an abysmal failure. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the Neo Con douchebag very much but I do agree on this one. We cannot un-do 50,000 years of segregation with a fake democracy and way more money than we ever deserved.

Multi-culturalim works WHEN the LAW superceeds "customs" and "traditions".
It fails when peoples cultures and habits and traditions become "above" the law.

[Syn7]

I played six shows in T.O. over a period of 5 days and I couldn't wait to get out of there. I was awake at night, asleep in the day and headed for the airpost less than 2 hours after breaking down the last show. Sorry. It just isn't for me. There are only two places I've lived at and am willing to go back to. Here and the Bay. I would like to give NY a shot but I have no real reason to and I suspect it would rub me the same way toronto did. I'm sure if I was stuck there I could learn to like it. It's just that one cannot live MY lifestyle over there. It just doesn't work. Where I live I can go to work, get off, head up the mountain for a few hours of boarding then hit the downtown core in time for happy hour and a piece of ass liqued up and ready to go. Where else can you do that? i can't even think of a major city with any GOOD skiing within 20 minutes drive. I spent half my life at the bottom of Seymour Mtn. I would get off school, hgrab my board and stick out my thumb and be on a chairlift by 4pm. We have it really good up in here and I'm not sure what I'm willing to trade for that. It took a woman to get me to frisco, but now i love it. Maybe the same would happen anywhere I end up at. I dunno...

[Syn7]

Multi-culturalim works WHEN the LAW superceeds "customs" and "traditions".
It fails when peoples cultures and habits and traditions become "above" the law.

Unfortunately the people who make the laws are brought up with custom and tradition. I'm not saying multiculturalism is always doomed to fail. I'm just saying that THIS one has, CLEARLY. In order to intergrate on that level we need to move slower than mollasses. That way the Governing bodies can keep up with the tradition and customs being imported.

People from China come here because where they live sucks for them. But then they come here and act the same way dooming us to the same sh1t. There is no geographical solution for a societal sickness and we are importing sickness en masse!!!

[Jimbo]

I really don't care what culture or race a person is from; as long as that person or persons treats me with basic courtesy I'm fine with it. OTOH, I don't care if someone is the same race as I am; if they are an a-hole, I will not give them any automatic respect, either.

I don't worry about other people assimilating/intermixing too quickly or not. To me, the question is, are they behaving like criminals or spoiled, greedy a-holes? Or citizens that contribute something positive in some way? And you can't assume because someone isn't white or African-American that they haven't assimilated as well. My family's roots in the West go back to the late 1880s to early 1890s, and that's from Japan.

[Syn7]

yeah, but when we assimilate too many foreigners into our culture too fast they bring the mistakes that forced them to leave their own country with them and ultimately forces us to gface those same issues. So Chinas main problam is overpopulation, should we just let them come as they please and live as they please and still expect to maintain our own cultural identity?

Immigration is a cop solution to problems that should be dealt with. Instead all those who would object just leave and all that's left are a few martyrs, a sh1tload of pus$y sheep and a few ringleaders who are all too happy to see the agitators leave and go to Canada or Australia.

I don't grudge somebody a better life, but I do feel they should stick around and be accountable for what their ancestors keft them, just like we will have to do. If where they are from sucks, it's because they didn't fix it.

If canada went to sh1t I wouldnt dream of simply moving my operations to another country.

Of course there are always gonna be those that have to flee because they DID speak up and them I am all too happy to house, feed and clothe.

[Sardinkahnikov]

I kinda that multiculturalism even exists in the first place. I mean, try taking a stroll around Manhattan while wearing a turbant.

IMO, the Western world is not exactly multicultural, but actually heavenly influenced by christianity, Illuminism, and, if you really want to go back, greco-roman classical culture. Most of the elements of "foreign" culture we encounter in our daily lives are either adapted to our lifestyle (eg. bored-housewife variety of buddhism, for instance) or considered just that - foreign.

[Jimbo]

yeah, but when we assimilate too many foreigners into our culture too fast they bring the mistakes that forced them to leave their own country with them and ultimately forces us to gface those same issues. So Chinas main problam is overpopulation, should we just let them come as they please and live as they please and still expect to maintain our own cultural identity?

Immigration is a cop solution to problems that should be dealt with. Instead all those who would object just leave and all that's left are a few martyrs, a sh1tload of pus$y sheep and a few ringleaders who are all too happy to see the agitators leave and go to Canada or Australia.

I don't grudge somebody a better life, but I do feel they should stick around and be accountable for what their ancestors keft them, just like we will have to do. If where they are from sucks, it's because they didn't fix it.

If canada went to sh1t I wouldnt dream of simply moving my operations to another country.

Of course there are always gonna be those that have to flee because they DID speak up and them I am all too happy to house, feed and clothe.

It seems to me that most of the Chinese who move to this country are highly educated, and most end up in high-paying jobs anyway, so I doubt many of them need a handout. Same with a lot of the immigrants from India. For myself, it's not really where somebody comes from that's the issue; rather, it's the sheer numbers of people. I remember being able to go places and do things without feeling crowded in everywhere.

Anyhow, would it be different if the over-influx of people were Europeans? There are some who don't always assimilate as well. I suppose some of the various First Nations peoples would have something to say about all of us.

[bawang]

you betrayed the British empire, the land of your ancestors. the hordes of dirty immigrants is punishment from jesus.

[Lee Chiang Po]

It seems to me that most of the Chinese who move to this country are highly educated, and most end up in high-paying jobs anyway, so I doubt many of them need a handout. Same with a lot of the immigrants from India. For myself, it's not really where somebody comes from that's the issue; rather, it's the sheer numbers of people. I remember being able to go places and do things without feeling crowded in everywhere.

Anyhow, would it be different if the over-influx of people were Europeans? There are some who don't always assimilate as well. I suppose some of the various First Nations peoples would have something to say about all of us.

In 1950, I was 5 years old. On my 5th birthday, everyone that is between birth and 61 years old did not exist. How many people in the world are in that age group? Probably well over half of them. A whole bunch of them come from elsewhere. Many of them use the social programs we have for the unfortunate. When those that it is designed for can not get them. They come and purchase property, bring their culture with them, and then criticize the system that allows them to do this. We can not buy property in many of these countries, can not take our culture with us, and any religion might even get us killed. Personally, I have always considered religion to be for the uneducated and ignorant masses. People that crave something better than the life they have. Be it an after life or just a new place to live where they have freedoms. The problem with all this is that even though they come here in search of something better, they always tend to drag all the crap along with them. The majority of them hate us and everything this country stands for, but they love the fact that it allows them to come here and do as they please. The USA is pretty much doomed now. It is far too late to do anything about all this.

[bawang]

americans have becomes creatures of pure sensory experience, living only in the now. it doesnt matter if the immigrants come and destroy your country. your people are not truly alive.

people need to experience the whole range of life, poverty and struggle and anger and sadness and despair. america is ruled by upper and middle class who drown themselves in pleasure.

[Lucas]

i cant stand all the 'new poor' its like when rich people refer to 'new money' people who dont know how to properly act within their social class. well **** it, all these new poor people that were created by the current economic downturn and recession need to figure it out.

man ive been poor my whole life, at least us old poor know how to act accordingly with proper tact and social economic understanding.

all these new poor bastads making us look bad. :eek:

[ShaolinDan]

i cant stand all the 'new poor' its like when rich people refer to 'new money' people who dont know how to properly act within their social class. well **** it, all these new poor people that were created by the current economic downturn and recession need to figure it out.

man ive been poor my whole life, at least us old poor know how to act accordingly with proper tact and social economic understanding.

all these new poor bastads making us look bad. :eek:

LOL
Well, I'm 'new poor,' I'm afraid, but I was doing it years before everyone else started! :p

[Syn7]

I kinda that multiculturalism even exists in the first place. I mean, try taking a stroll around Manhattan while wearing a turbant.

IMO, the Western world is not exactly multicultural, but actually heavenly influenced by Christianity, Illuminism, and, if you really want to go back, greco-roman classical culture. Most of the elements of "foreign" culture we encounter in our daily lives are either adapted to our lifestyle (eg. bored-housewife variety of buddhism, for instance) or considered just that - foreign.

I don't subscribe the "we are better off because we are Christian" club. Chinese religions stress those same kindnesses. It's the state of living conditions that makes the difference. We can afford to be charitable. You can even see it in your own city. Go to the drug infested areas with high unemployment and then go to an affluent hood with white picket fences and see where you witness more good deeds. So what? The poor people aren't as Christian as the wealthier people who are more likely to lend a hand?

[Jimbo]

One thing I will say is that I won't tolerate someone new (whatever color or region they're from) coming here from abroad or from elsewhere in this country, and trying to make me adapt to them. I have a couple of friends from the Netherlands who told me that in many European countries now, large numbers of Muslim immigrants expect the Europeans to adapt to their way of life, rather than the other way around.

[Syn7]

Anyhow, would it be different if the over-influx of people were Europeans? There are some who don't always assimilate as well. I suppose some of the various First Nations peoples would have something to say about all of us.


No. It wouldn't and isn't any different at all. Of course not. I used Chinese and Indian because where I live you can't look around without seeing more of them than any other race including anglo saxon. I wasn't trying to single them out for any other reason than it is they who have the worst population problems on the planet. They are breeding too fast and it's hurting them so bad they need to spread out to other places. My issue is that they move and carry on biz as usual and I have issue with that. If I went to china, for any reason, I would assimilate and be Chinese. I wouldn't scream bloody murder if there wasn't public funding for Canadian holidays.

And most immigrants are on the poor end of the stick, that's a fact. I don't grudge them a better life, but then I am not willing to sacrifice all we enjoy(regardless of how we got it, its done and we need to move foreword) just to accommodate a giant chunk of people who aren't willing or are un-able to fix the problems in their own countries. If we swing the door wide open and try to fill all these so called jobs we need immigrants to fill we will pay for it dearly in the next two or three generations. In our lifetime, for sure. We need to move back to a resource based economy and Canadians are gonna have to start doing those jobs only immigrants will do. And they should be paid fairly. This is all not only economically feasible, but it's also a far better model than that joke we are following right now.

Did you know that only 1% of our population growth is natural! That is births minus deaths of Canadian citizens of any color even the ones who just became citizens are counted in that number. The other 99% is..... you guessed it, IMMIGRATION. does that not scare you? Do you not see the folly in such ridiculous greed?

Make no mistake about it. Corporations and special interest groups have lobbied for this in order to keep costs down and profits up on their domestic operations. They hold us hostage by saying if we don't bend over and take it dry, they will just pack up and do it elsewhere. They can make 200 million a year playing fair and being a responsible patriotic company or they can make 250 million and be complete j3rkoffs about it, totally screwing anyone who steps in the way of their money.

Does anyone actually believe that extra 50 mill trickles down? If so, you need some schooling. On average about 80% goes to the top 10 executives and the other 20% goes to the next line below them. But none of it makes it to the store shelf in the guise of savings or at the factories giving better wages. It's a scam and it's becoming so normal that our politicians don't even talk about it anymore lest they get left in the cold after their term is up and it's their turn to rake in some profits. Sort of like the Goldman Sachs - US fed revolving door relationship. We need to change how campaign are funded before we even bother doing anything else.

[Syn7]

One thing I will say is that I won't tolerate someone new (whatever color or region they're from) coming here from abroad or from elsewhere in this country, and trying to make me adapt to them. I have a couple of friends from the Netherlands who told me that in many European countries now, large numbers of Muslim immigrants expect the Europeans to adapt to their way of life, rather than the other way around.

That's what I'm saying, and that's bullsh1t. If you want to become a citizen then you need to adapt to our culture because you left yours behind. If your culture is that important to you then stay the fukc home and work on it. Make it so you don't have to flee poverty or politics. All nations can be managed better but some really need alot of work and exporting citizens is not an answer, it just infects the areas they immigrate to with those same social ills that make it so they had to flee in the first place. You aren't here to enhance your cultural identity. Conform or go away.

[bawang]

good luck getting white kids these days to be factory workers and farmers.

[Syn7]

Like I said before, for real change to happen some people are gonna have to go.

But you would be suprised how fast people would be willing to do these jobs if they paid fair and livable wages. Most people are sheep, if you bring about a better way of life they will all fall in line. Those that don't will have to answer for that.

[YouKnowWho]

You aren't here to enhance your cultural identity.
It's so funny that when I built my house, all the interior decoration were western conventional style. All my pictures and wall paper were "abstract modern art". When my American wife moved in, she changed all the interior decoration into oriental style. Even the new wall paper has Chinese dragons in it (I have no idea where did she find it). Before I married to her, my old dog named "Cricket". After I married her, she named our new dog "Yaya".

[Syn7]

It's so funny that when I built my house, all the interior decoration were western conventional style. All my pictures and wall paper were "abstract modern art". When my American wife moved in, she changed all the interior decoration into oriental style. Even the new wall paper has Chinese dragons in it (I have no idea where did she find it). Before I married to her, my old dog named "Cricket". After I married her, she named our new dog "Yaya".

lol. You found yourself an asian-lover. I know a few white folks like that too.

[bawang]

Like I said before, for real change to happen some people are gonna have to go.



what you gonna do about it?

[David Jamieson]

http://i.imgur.com/gYUaK.gif

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://i.imgur.com/gYUaK.gif

Quite so, Quite so.

[GeneChing]

http://i.imgur.com/gYUaK.gif
Man, if you only knew how many article submissions (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.php) I get with incorrect punctuation.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/419556_10150639056375891_101800100890_11172821_127 0302375_n.jpg
I know, not nearly as funny, but cute and colorful...

[wenshu]

http://www.tumblr.com/photo/1280/greaterthanlapsed/10340315471/1/tumblr_lroovsKtS71qgiws1

[Syn7]

http://i.imgur.com/gYUaK.gif

Did you not post that before, a few months ago? a year maybe?

[GeneChing]

A panda walks into a bar. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air.

"Why? Why are you behaving in this strange, un-panda-like fashion?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda walks towards the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

"I'm a panda," he says, at the door. "Look it up."

The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation.

"Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1843961)"
I recommend this book to every aspiring writer - Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation by Lynne Truss.

[Syn7]

what you gonna do about it?

Not planning on being a martyr, that's for sure. Guess that depends on what Fortuna hands me.

For now I'm happy to gather info and watch everything around me as closely as I realistically can. Maybe that leads to something worth while, maybe not.

[Syn7]

I recommend this book to every aspiring writer - Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation by Lynne Truss.

I could mos def use a refresher course in proper punctuation. I think I get my point across though.

[bawang]

in other words you are powerless before them. you can do nothing to change your fate. it disturbs you.

[Syn7]

in other words you are powerless before them. you can do nothing to change your fate. it disturbs you.

I don't feel that way. i don't know how you can read what I wrote and get that out of it but uummm, OK. I don't feel powerless at all. I have much more control over my life than anyone else, and I'm good with that. You can only be manipulated if you allow yourself to be manipulated. You do what you can and live with that. If you are strong you will be cool with that if you are weak you will fear it. I didn't even feel powerless doing time....