What is Forward Pressure?

[Yoshiyahu]

What is forward Pressure and what is it used for?

why does Wing Chun have forward Pressure?

Is forward Pressure the only type of pressure you have?

[JPinAZ]

care to share your thoughts on this first? you might get a little more in return if you give a little first vs. what some consider plain old begging ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

care to share your thoughts on this first? you might get a little more in return if you give a little first vs. what some consider plain old begging ;)

my view is forward energy...I dont think WC is just limited to forward pressure!!!

It all depends on whats your focus is!

[anerlich]

What is forward Pressure and what is it used for?

Pressing forward.

[Wayfaring]

What is forward Pressure and what is it used for?

It is pressure in the forward direction. I use it all the time when riding elevators to ensure the correct button is pressed.



why does Wing Chun have forward Pressure?

So that you can move forward while doing Wing Chun.



Is forward Pressure the only type of pressure you have?

Not at all. I have pressure on the job, with the family, and sometimes even on Internet forums.

[GlennR]

It is pressure in the forward direction. I use it all the time when riding elevators to ensure the correct button is pressed.


So that you can move forward while doing Wing Chun.



Not at all. I have pressure on the job, with the family, and sometimes even on Internet forums.


Ive occasionally got financial pressure but my most worrying pressure currently is the low pressure system of the east coast of Sydney causing severe flooding.

I laugh at forward pressure!!

[Wayfaring]

Ive occasionally got financial pressure but my most worrying pressure currently is the low pressure system of the east coast of Sydney causing severe flooding.

I laugh at forward pressure!!

Move to Melbourne? :D I joke, I joke.

[JPinAZ]

my view is forward energy...I dont think WC is just limited to forward pressure!!!

It all depends on whats your focus is!

I really have no idea what you're even talking about..


It is pressure in the forward direction. I use it all the time when riding elevators to ensure the correct button is pressed.

So that you can move forward while doing Wing Chun.

Not at all. I have pressure on the job, with the family, and sometimes even on Internet forums.

LOL - that's about the jist of it for me too!

[imperialtaichi]

Forward intention. Like a fish wanting to swim upstream.

I also want to wrap up/tangle up/spin around the opponent most time.

[YouKnowWho]

What is forward Pressure and what is it used for?

why does Wing Chun have forward Pressure?

Is forward Pressure the only type of pressure you have?

You will be in trouble if your opponent's

- leading leg can enter between your legs, and his center take over your center.
- body can pass next your body and his momentum can drag you down.

At 5.00 in the following clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLC2fgYxdjw&feature=player_embedded#!

[Yoshiyahu]

hey guys you got some good post coming on this thanks!

[Treznor]

To me, forward pressure is the springiness that allows you to exploit any 'holes' in your opponents structure... ie when you feel a gap, you (and your structure) fill it without having to think about it.

Even if your opponents forward pressure is forcing you to move backwards / laterally, you should maintain some degree of forwardness yourself in order to keep your structure from collapsing.

[wingchunIan]

To me, forward pressure is the springiness that allows you to exploit any 'holes' in your opponents structure... ie when you feel a gap, you (and your structure) fill it without having to think about it.

Even if your opponents forward pressure is forcing you to move backwards / laterally, you should maintain some degree of forwardness yourself in order to keep your structure from collapsing.

agree in the most with this post, when the arm gets intercepted it should maintain intent towards the target creating the effect of bamboo under tension, if the thing in the way disappears the arm strikes automatically, if an attempt to pull or push the arm away from its path it springs back exploiting the hole left behind. Would also add that it's a mental thing as well as physical constantly striving to strike the opponents jic seen. Unfortunately some folks interpret it as pushing or turn it into something that only has a place in chi sau

[Yoshiyahu]

agree in the most with this post, when the arm gets intercepted it should maintain intent towards the target creating the effect of bamboo under tension, if the thing in the way disappears the arm strikes automatically, if an attempt to pull or push the arm away from its path it springs back exploiting the hole left behind. Would also add that it's a mental thing as well as physical constantly striving to strike the opponents jic seen. Unfortunately some folks interpret it as pushing or turn it into something that only has a place in chi sau

Care to elaborate on what you mean as interpret forward pressure as just pushing?

[Treznor]

Care to elaborate on what you mean as interpret forward pressure as just pushing?

Not so much pushing as a neutral force...

'Pushing' would suggest a use of force trying to move the obstacle you've just met...

What I (and I think Ian from what he says) meant is that a neutral force is used...

This way, if the opponent decides to add more force, you can absorb it (either by taking your elbow back to the hip which will allow for a counter-attack or, if needed, by moving your whole structure backwards).

Alternatively, if the obstacle is removed, you will be able to feel this and 'fill the hole' as it were by launching your attack.

Mat

[wingchunIan]

Care to elaborate on what you mean as interpret forward pressure as just pushing?

In many classes you see people pushing on the arms or leaning on with their body weight which is a mistake as if the opponent is skilled they will use it against you.

[JPinAZ]

I prefer the term 'continuous forward intent'. The idea behind this is directing your energy toward your opponent thru the bridge so you can connect to their COG to both influence it as well as read your opponents move. Without fwd intent, we will always be playing catch up with our opponent leaving us always a step behind.

IMO, this is WC 101. I'm surprised someone even had to start a thread on this subject.. :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

For me,

Forward pressure means when one has developed the six bow. When one get press from front, the bow is responding naturally on the press without need to intent , as if we press a sprng the spring deliver the opposite force proportion to the press naturally.

The bottom line is to have the bow develop.

[Hendrik]

In many classes you see people pushing on the arms or leaning on with their body weight which is a mistake as if the opponent is skilled they will use it against you.


Push with body weight or bow are distinctly different deal.

[WC1277]

Forward pressure is just the basic WC principle of trying to always maintain striking distance or closer preferably while facing...

Forward intent is where a bridge is already made and you're essentially forcing their center of gravity to lean on yours regardless of point of contact or centerline. We call it 'keystone function', this is where your L4 and L5 align and it feels to some degree like you're doing a crunch. What this does is send the opponents energy into the ground making them 'stick' to you so to speak. If they withdrawal their forward energy in any way they will fall into your attack. Try this simple exercise to see what 'keystone' feels like: get into a good, rooted mother stance. Now place your palms together directly along your centerline. Do not pull your wrists back like a wu sau. Keep the elbows down and have a good V shape. It will differ per person but generally have the knuckles at the same height as your shoulders. Now have a partner stand in front of you. Maintain focus on his center mentally. Now have him push your hands to one side or the other. If your structure is aligned right and you don't use muscle, you'll naturally come back to center. You should also notice a crunch like feeling in your abdomen. That is keystone function and the basis of forward intent. The faster your body comes back to center, as in follows the opponents hand as he withdrawals, the better your structure. It's what we call grace period.

Just remember, that is just an exercise and has no real practical application. It just allows you to feel how keystone function works....

[wingchunIan]

Forward pressure is just the basic WC principle of trying to always maintain striking distance or closer preferably while facing...

Forward intent is where a bridge is already made and you're essentially forcing their center of gravity to lean on yours regardless of point of contact or centerline. We call it 'keystone function', this is where your L4 and L5 align and it feels to some degree like you're doing a crunch. What this does is send the opponents energy into the ground making them 'stick' to you so to speak. If they withdrawal their forward energy in any way they will fall into your attack. Try this simple exercise to see what 'keystone' feels like: get into a good, rooted mother stance. Now place your palms together directly along your centerline. Do not pull your wrists back like a wu sau. Keep the elbows down and have a good V shape. It will differ per person but generally have the knuckles at the same height as your shoulders. Now have a partner stand in front of you. Maintain focus on his center mentally. Now have him push your hands to one side or the other. If your structure is aligned right and you don't use muscle, you'll naturally come back to center. You should also notice a crunch like feeling in your abdomen. That is keystone function and the basis of forward intent. The faster your body comes back to center, as in follows the opponents hand as he withdrawals, the better your structure. It's what we call grace period.

Just remember, that is just an exercise and has no real practical application. It just allows you to feel how keystone function works....

L4 and L5?? care to explain as for me this would mean the lumbar vertebrae but I presume that this isn't what you mean.

[WC1277]

L4 and L5?? care to explain as for me this would mean the lumbar vertebrae but I presume that this isn't what you mean.

No, I did. If it's confusing, I guess you could say compress instead of align but yes the lumbar vertebrae is what I was referring to.

[WingChunABQ]

No, I did. If it's confusing, I guess you could say compress instead of align but yes the lumbar vertebrae is what I was referring to.

Right. Using the 'pelvic tuck' to engage the L4/L5 vertebrae helps to tighten the connection between the lower body and upper body. Shoulder -> Lat muscles - > L4/L5 is like an upper body unit, working as one piece.

The pelvic tilt/tuck engages the gluteous muscles -> leg adductors (groin muscles) -> quads/hamstrings/calves -> feet. This is the lower body unit.

To get body unity & power generation/absorbtion you have to link the two.

[WC1277]

Right. Using the 'pelvic tuck' to engage the L4/L5 vertebrae helps to tighten the connection between the lower body and upper body. Shoulder -> Lat muscles - > L4/L5 is like an upper body unit, working as one piece.

The pelvic tilt/tuck engages the gluteous muscles -> leg adductors (groin muscles) -> quads/hamstrings/calves -> feet. This is the lower body unit.

To get body unity & power generation/absorbtion you have to link the two.

Yes and No.... The basic stance, yes involves what one could call the 'pelvic tuck', although there's many who over-exaggerate it, which is where the difference lies...

One shouldn't be in that position where the L4 and L5 compress constantly. If they're already in that position without an incoming force then there's essentially no function or "spring" then. Which is why in SLT you're upper body is supposed to be as straight as possible. When this function engages, your body will literally 'crunch'. Think of a leaf spring. It's hard to explain without showing but if one can understand how this works their WC will significantly improve. Essentially it works like this: incoming force - body absorbs force by crunching - this takes the energy from the opponent making him feel like he's stuck(sticking) - as long as he maintains the same force the energy remains stored in your spring - if he moves his force the stored energy in your body returns along the same path he removes.....

This is what forward intent is in a nutshell and also one of the core concepts of chi sau...

[WingChunABQ]

Right. I'm not saying that one should over-emphasize it, nor should they keep the lower back constantly "locked" and non-dynamic. It's just the transfer point between lower and upper gates is all.

We actually learned to practice SLT by moving the pelvis slightly forward to follow the technique, and back to neutral when the hands return inside (wu sao returning, etc.) and when they're placed at the sides.

[WC1277]

Right. I'm not saying that one should over-emphasize it, nor should they keep the lower back constantly "locked" and non-dynamic. It's just the transfer point between lower and upper gates is all.

We actually learned to practice SLT by moving the pelvis slightly forward to follow the technique, and back to neutral when the hands return inside (wu sao returning, etc.) and when they're placed at the sides.

While I'm glad that your Sifu at least understands the concept, I fear the implementation is wrong. It shouldn't be something that you consciously 'intend' to do but something that you 'allow' to happen. No different from holding your stance while someone pushes on it and only 'allowing' yourself to move backward when you feel you would have to use muscle to maintain center of gravity. Keystone function is nothing more than allowing your body to be a spring. If you try to intentionally wound it up, it won't work properly. This is why a properly done one inch punch is more a pushing punch than an internal strike. Because of the distance your fist is from their body, when you make contact, your body will recoil first implementing keystone function. This isn't conscious, just alignment of a good structure, and an awareness of the limits of force upon your body.... It's not something you can create, only something where you allow a certain tension. Like a balloon, you're the air inside, too much force, you'll pop if you don't move; too far away and and you'll have no bounce back.... That balance between proper tension and too much muscle is key...

[Grumblegeezer]

IMO, this is WC 101. I'm surprised someone even had to start a thread on this subject.. :rolleyes:

Yep. Really basic stuff. Which is why I'm glad people are talking about it, rather than bickering about details.

Still, if you take a look at some of the posts, some people really over-complicate a very simple idea.

[WingChunABQ]

While I'm glad that your Sifu at least understands the concept, I fear the implementation is wrong. It shouldn't be something that you consciously 'intend' to do but something that you 'allow' to happen. No different from holding your stance while someone pushes on it and only 'allowing' yourself to move backward when you feel you would have to use muscle to maintain center of gravity. Keystone function is nothing more than allowing your body to be a spring. If you try to intentionally wound it up, it won't work properly. This is why a properly done one inch punch is more a pushing punch than an internal strike. Because of the distance your fist is from their body, when you make contact, your body will recoil first implementing keystone function. This isn't conscious, just alignment of a good structure, and an awareness of the limits of force upon your body.... It's not something you can create, only something where you allow a certain tension. Like a balloon, you're the air inside, too much force, you'll pop if you don't move; too far away and and you'll have no bounce back.... That balance between proper tension and too much muscle is key...

In application and practice, I agree with you - it's spontaneous. However in SLT form practice, especially during the qi gung portion, it should be practiced consciously in order to condition the body to respond spontaneously. This is especially important for beginners, I think.

[Yoshiyahu]

In many classes you see people pushing on the arms or leaning on with their body weight which is a mistake as if the opponent is skilled they will use it against you.

Well thanks for sharing the difference!!!


I prefer the term 'continuous forward intent'. The idea behind this is directing your energy toward your opponent thru the bridge so you can connect to their COG to both influence it as well as read your opponents move. Without fwd intent, we will always be playing catch up with our opponent leaving us always a step behind.

IMO, this is WC 101. I'm surprised someone even had to start a thread on this subject.. :rolleyes:

Very good opinion!!! I agree with you!

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Which one of these approach is closer to how you align your body when using the six bows for forward pressure?

The issue is how many bow one can balancely activate spontaneously. And how to get there. IMO.

[WC1277]

The issue is how many bow one can balancely activate spontaneously. And how to get there. IMO.

I don't know if we're talking about the same thing Hendrik, but it would be 1 for every 3 movements which would partially explain why the number 3 in WC goes beyond just timing....

[Hendrik]

I don't know if we're talking about the same thing Hendrik, but it would be 1 for every 3 movements which would partially explain why the number 3 in WC goes beyond just timing....

Please explain what do you mean by 1 for 3...ect.

[WC1277]

Please explain what do you mean by 1 for 3...ect.

It's not worth it if you don't know what I'm talking about already, very simple but too complicated to explain through words...

What do you mean by 6 bows then?

[Hendrik]

It's not worth it if you don't know what I'm talking about already, very simple but too complicated to explain through words...

What do you mean by 6 bows then?

Human body has 6 major joints.

[Vajramusti]

Human body has 6 major joints.
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Hendrik and wc are talking about two different contexts. Of course there are 6 joints, wc is talking about what connects them- the clutch and the gear.

joy

[Hendrik]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik and wc are talking about two different contexts. Of course there are 6 joints, wc is talking about what connects them- the clutch and the gear.

joy

Joy,

What is that 1 for 3 stuffs? Care to share? Thanks!

[Yoshiyahu]

Joy,

What is that 1 for 3 stuffs? Care to share? Thanks!

Please elaborate...i cant wait to see?

[WC1277]

Think of it this way, when you shift gears on a standard transmission how many movements is it? Foot off the gas and clutch in, shift gears, clutch out and back on the gas. Three movements. The same with the keystone function. The body absorbs force and takes away the power i.e. the clutch takes away the power of the engine. The body, with proper structure, returns along the same path i.e. the gear replaces the same spot the previous gear was in. The body now exerts a more powerful force due to the combination of momentum and stored energy i.e. clutch released with foot on gas. Three movements. Forward intent....

[Vajramusti]

Think of it this way, when you shift gears on a standard transmission how many movements is it? Foot off the gas and clutch in, shift gears, clutch out and back on the gas. Three movements. The same with the keystone function. The body absorbs force and takes away the power i.e. the clutch takes away the power of the engine. The body, with proper structure, returns along the same path i.e. the gear replaces the same spot the previous gear was in. The body now exerts a more powerful force due to the combination of momentum and stored energy i.e. clutch released with foot on gas. Three movements. Forward intent....
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Well put. Also blends with one of the best wing chun kuen kuit--stay with what comes, accompany it when it leaves.

Not a technique but a tool for skill development.

It's difficult to share perspectives on this forum, because things turn ugly very easily and too often.
WC1277 is sincerely trying.

Words can mislead. But a 3 some-receive, control, attack skill foundation.

joy chaudhuri

[WingChunABQ]

Hendrik,

Which one of these approach is closer to how you align your body when using the six bows for forward pressure?

I want to clarify that WC1277 and I talking about the same thing - same motions, same structure, same development practice.

[kung fu fighter]

Right. Using the 'pelvic tuck' to engage the L4/L5 vertebrae helps to tighten the connection between the lower body and upper body. Shoulder -> Lat muscles - > L4/L5 is like an upper body unit, working as one piece.

The pelvic tilt/tuck engages the gluteous muscles -> leg adductors (groin muscles) -> quads/hamstrings/calves -> feet. This is the lower body unit.

To get body unity & power generation/absorbtion you have to link the two.




Yes and No.... The basic stance, yes involves what one could call the 'pelvic tuck', although there's many who over-exaggerate it, which is where the difference lies...

One shouldn't be in that position where the L4 and L5 compress constantly. If they're already in that position without an incoming force then there's essentially no function or "spring" then. Which is why in SLT you're upper body is supposed to be as straight as possible. When this function engages, your body will literally 'crunch'. Think of a leaf spring. It's hard to explain without showing but if one can understand how this works their WC will significantly improve. Essentially it works like this: incoming force - body absorbs force by crunching - this takes the energy from the opponent making him feel like he's stuck(sticking) - as long as he maintains the same force the energy remains stored in your spring - if he moves his force the stored energy in your body returns along the same path he removes.....

This is what forward intent is in a nutshell and also one of the core concepts of chi sau...

Think of it this way, when you shift gears on a standard transmission how many movements is it? Foot off the gas and clutch in, shift gears, clutch out and back on the gas. Three movements. The same with the keystone function. The body absorbs force and takes away the power i.e. the clutch takes away the power of the engine. The body, with proper structure, returns along the same path i.e. the gear replaces the same spot the previous gear was in. The body now exerts a more powerful force due to the combination of momentum and stored energy i.e. clutch released with foot on gas. Three movements. Forward intent


Hendrik,

Is the discription above close to how you align your body when using the six bows for forward pressure?

[Hendrik]

Think of it this way, when you shift gears on a standard transmission how many movements is it? Foot off the gas and clutch in, shift gears, clutch out and back on the gas. Three movements. The same with the keystone function. The body absorbs force and takes away the power i.e. the clutch takes away the power of the engine. The body, with proper structure, returns along the same path i.e. the gear replaces the same spot the previous gear was in. The body now exerts a more powerful force due to the combination of momentum and stored energy i.e. clutch released with foot on gas. Three movements. Forward intent....

Thanks and appreciate!

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Is the discription above close to how you align your body when using the six bows for forward pressure?

1.
I am talking the nature of the spring system. They are talking a specific case of how to load and unload a specific springs combination.


2.

I don't buy the idea of

The body absorbs force and takes away the power . There is no way the body absorbs force. Spine is a very fragile object which could be damage. Thus, what is the body needs to be clearly define.

[Yoshiyahu]

Glad to see this thread i started as went to friendly mode of information sharing...great...keep it up!