Difference between forms, explanation?

[White_Ape]

Hey, its me again,

So I've been searching this Forum looking for various answers to my endless noob questions,
just thought I'd ask and see what happens :p though I imagine its been debated a billion times....ok...here goes...

I am currently learning 'white ape steals the peach' and I am only about halfway through the form, and decided to hit up youtube to see the rest of the form and kinda practice on my own at home so I don't look like such a 'tard trying to figure out the next few movements, and discovered.....shockingly :eek:....I can't find two freaking vids that are the same, or at least in good enough quality to really tell if its the same.
I know I'm still green and have yet to understand the subtle nuances of every movement, but I KNOW that what I'm seeing on youtube is not even close to the version I am learning.....
Are these forms unique to lineage? Or is it the Sifu's interpretation of the form?
Either way, I'll have to get someone from class to let me record them doing the form and upload it later...
Looking forward to hearing your responses! (by the way, the form I am learning is Baag Yune Tou Toe, but I've seen it spelled every flippin' way imaginable....Bai Yuen Tow Tou, Bai Yuan To Tow, Bye Y'all Too Taloo, etc...

[MightyB]

....I can't find two freaking vids that are the same, or at least in good enough quality to really tell if its the same.
I know I'm still green and have yet to understand the subtle nuances of every movement, but I KNOW that what I'm seeing on youtube is not even close to the version I am learning.....
Are these forms unique to lineage? Or is it the Sifu's interpretation of the form?
(by the way, the form I am learning is Baag Yune Tou Toe, but I've seen it spelled every flippin' way imaginable....Bai Yuen Tow Tou, Bai Yuan To Tow, Bye Y'all Too Taloo, etc...

LOL, been at 7* for nearly 2 decades and have yet to find a single answer to that question.

Word of advice - learn the forms the way your Sifu teaches them to you. Don't worry about what other people are doing... at least yet.

Worry about what the forms are supposed to be showing you. Worry about how the applications are supposed to work. Worry about learning to pull off one or two moves from the forms during a free-flow brawl.

[White_Ape]

LOL, been at 7* for nearly 2 decades and have yet to find a single answer to that question.

Word of advice - learn the forms the way your Sifu teaches them to you. Don't worry about what other people are doing... at least yet.

Worry about what the forms are supposed to be showing you. Worry about how the applications are supposed to work. Worry about learning to pull off one or two moves from the forms during a free-flow brawl.

Right on. Excellent Advice! :D Thanks
I did find this one vid, that upon closer inspection is the same form I am learning, its Brendan Lai and I believe its from the WHF line, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E9uLaMBevg
One of my classmates has the form on youtube but I don't want to post without his permission. I will ask him tonight if I can record him doing the form slower so I can really absorb whats going on. He is Sifu's assistant and a really good teacher himself, he and Sifu have been working with me on this form, its just I am a driven perfectionist and want to obsess over it when I'm at home and feeling.....kung fu-ish.....ya know.
Thanks again for the input ;)

[mooyingmantis]

LOL, been at 7* for nearly 2 decades and have yet to find a single answer to that question.

Word of advice - learn the forms the way your Sifu teaches them to you. Don't worry about what other people are doing... at least yet.

Worry about what the forms are supposed to be showing you. Worry about how the applications are supposed to work. Worry about learning to pull off one or two moves from the forms during a free-flow brawl.

This reply is GOLDEN!!!

I learned the form with the same movements as demonstrated by Sifu Brendan Lai.

Chinese instructors often use traditional form titles for different forms, or use different titles for the same form. It is not unusual.

Hong Kong Seven Star Mantis has "Praying Mantis Steals the Peach", while Mainland Seven Star has "White Ape Steals the Peach" for the exact same form. Same movements, two different names.

[-N-]

by the way, the form I am learning is Baag Yune Tou Toe, but I've seen it spelled every flippin' way imaginable....Bai Yuen Tow Tou, Bai Yuan To Tow, Bye Y'all Too Taloo, etc...

Those spellings are different people's attempts at Romanizing Cantonese and Mandarin pronuciations.

The first one is Sifu Jon Funk's Romanization of Cantonese. The others are attempts at conveying the Mandarin pronunciation.

None of those look to be standard Romanizations.

Cantonese don't say "baag". Sounds more like "bak" or "baak".

[Yao Sing]

I'm surprised nobody stepped up to tell there are two different forms with that same name, but I guess you found that out. It's been talked about here in the past but I don't remember which lineages teach which BYTT.

The same thing happened to me, I learned a version but when I looked on Youtube I found a totally different form but the same name.

I'm sure sooner or later one of our local history experts will give an explanation but either way just work on the set as you are taught otherwise you might get confused.

There's a right way and wrong way to do the moves but no right or wrong moves doing the form. Only what's right within your school.

[mooyingmantis]

The correct Mandarin characters and pinyin for the form is:

白 猿 偷 桃 - White Ape Steals Peach" - bái yuán tōu táo

It is a basic but fun form to do. Good luck with your training!

Here is my translation of Master Won Hon Fan's description of the form you are learning:


White Ape Steals the Peach

01. Middle Level Twins Store Up Power
02. Enter Ring, Single Arm Claw
03. Raise Step, Right Uppercut Strike
04. Penetrating Hand, Right Gathering Strike
05. Ascend Mountain, Right Uppercut Strike
06. Twist Step, Left Sticky Elbow
07. Splitting Circle, Right Thrust Arm
08. Turn Body, Mantis Hook & Kick
09. Circle Strike, Continuous Legs
10. Enter Ring, Right Thrust Arm
11. Withdraw Step, Hang Gathering Strike
12. Ascend Mountain, Right Splitting Crush
13. Shadow Step, Shuttle Pattern
14. Seal Hand, Double Flying Leg
15. Ascend Mountain, Hang Gathering Strike
16. Ascend Mountain, Right Splitting Strike
17. Horizontal Circle, Big Outside Swing
18. Ascend Mountain, Hang Gathering Strike
19. Shadow Step, Seal Gathering Strike
20. Ascend Mountain, Wheel Pattern
21. Ascend Mountain, Hang Gathering Strike
22. Seal Hand, Right Prop Up Leg
23. Turn Body, Hang Gathering Strike
24. Straddle Tiger, Lift Gathering Strike

[Yao Sing]

I don't know the names of the moves but that doesn't sound like the one I know.

[Yao Sing]

Can't find video of the one I play but it's similar to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9LJlmCsO1c&feature=related

and this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1HaDFnNGc&feature=related

but here is where it gets really confusing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y99D8318ZqI&feature=related

The first and third link both claim it's Seven Star Mantis but they are totally different.

and some explanation form an old thread:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-14967.html

[White_Ape]

Can't find video of the one I play but it's similar to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9LJlmCsO1c&feature=related

and this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1HaDFnNGc&feature=related

but here is where it gets really confusing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y99D8318ZqI&feature=related

The first and third link both claim it's Seven Star Mantis but they are totally different.

and some explanation form an old thread:
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-14967.html

the one where you said it gets confusing (I think thats from Martial Skill.com) is the same form, I have come to learn that its from the WHF lineage, here is a link to a guy in our class doing the exact form BYTT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-YSn1AoHWs) as for the first two vids you posted, not sure, but thanks so much for all the info everyone :p I feel like such a noob hahaha :o

[Yao Sing]

I consider that "the other one" but I like it. I'll have to learn that one. :)

The one I know has the head smash, what some call "steals peach". The one you know has the groin strike that others call "steals peach". Then there's the Mantis108's interpretation making them both correct as "steals peach".

[Tainan Mantis]

The most likely scenario is that originally White Ape Steals the Peach was a technique. Later a form shaped around it.
A while ago I wrote an article on this form, since that time I have found that it was part of the old Hao Family style of Mantis. THe Hao Family version was taught by Hao Lianru, I have heard that he was friends with Wang Rongsheng of 7 Star Mantis, so there may have been some exchange of techniques going on there.

This Hao family version follows the version of White Ape Steals the Peach found in 7 Star families in Shandong. But it has some curious differences.


... During the Qing dynasty (1644-1911) all males were required by law to grow their hair long and tie it in a braid known as the queue. The penalty for cutting your queue was death. This hair fashion was a sign of subjugation of the Chinese under their Manchu rulers. The only ones exempt from this law were ordained Buddhist monks.


Anyway, keep that in mind if you have time to read this article
White Ape Steals the Peach (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2009/bai%20yuan%20tou%20tao.htm)

[White_Ape]

I consider that "the other one" but I like it. I'll have to learn that one. :)

The one I know has the head smash, what some call "steals peach". The one you know has the groin strike that others call "steals peach". Then there's the Mantis108's interpretation making them both correct as "steals peach".

haahahaha
Either way, I wouldn't want my peach stolen in any fashion.....but if I had a choice I'd rather the little peaches be left alone....un-plucked.....

I will just focus on this version for now, and learn that version later just for a wholesome education :p

But if anyone does have or can make a video of them doing the WHF version of BYTT that would be super duper ;) and greatly appreciated

[KwaiChangCaine]

white ape steals peach mainland is praying mantis steals peach in Chiu Chi Man line I believe. WASP in CCM line is a different set entirely. I always wondered if the CCM WASP was known by another name elsewhere.

[White_Ape]

The most likely scenario is that originally White Ape Steals the Peach was a technique. Later a form shaped around it.
A while ago I wrote an article on this form, since that time I have found that it was part of the old Hao Family style of Mantis. THe Hao Family version was taught by Hao Lianru, I have heard that he was friends with Wang Rongsheng of 7 Star Mantis, so there may have been some exchange of techniques going on there.

This Hao family version follows the version of White Ape Steals the Peach found in 7 Star families in Shandong. But it has some curious differences.


... During the Qing dynasty (1644-1911) all males were required by law to grow their hair long and tie it in a braid known as the queue. The penalty for cutting your queue was death. This hair fashion was a sign of subjugation of the Chinese under their Manchu rulers. The only ones exempt from this law were ordained Buddhist monks.


Anyway, keep that in mind if you have time to read this article
White Ape Steals the Peach (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2009/bai%20yuan%20tou%20tao.htm)

Fantastic!!! Ironically I read this same article about a month ago before I joined here, when I first started learning BYTT I got a bit obsessed and scoured the 'interwebs' for anything I could find.
Awesome write up, and very informative!!! Esp. the part of not being able to cut your 'queue'.....funny how something was considered at that time and never fathomed it would change...
either way, good stuff! I am super glad I joined this place :D

[White_Ape]

white ape steals peach mainland is praying mantis steals peach in Chiu Chi Man line I believe. WASP in CCM line is a different set entirely. I always wondered if the CCM WASP was known by another name elsewhere.

Exactly why I am getting lost :rolleyes:
No worries though, whatever the forms are called, they are valuable, and I know there is over 100+ forms in the PM system collectively....I am sure some are redundant or some for show, but all in all, its a treasure trove of valuable info and legacy, that I believe should be demonstrated, recorded, and cataloged since we have the technology they (regrettably) did not so many years ago....

[White_Ape]

I found three more examples of the WHF BYTT, stupidly by changing the wording to "White Gibbon Steals Peach" or "White Monkey Steals Peach"
Youtube frustrates me when there is such a trivial technicality....grrr...
But, anywho, here is a few more examples of the BYTT I am learning, it seems the other variation is most popular though....
Let me know your thoughts ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGhfGzu5lJY&list=FLxRn6PoC906Rd1vvgEl9U7w&feature=mh_lolz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_rPQjYmhog&list=FLxRn6PoC906Rd1vvgEl9U7w&index=2&feature=plpp_video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYQMIIQg5k0&list=FLxRn6PoC906Rd1vvgEl9U7w&index=3&feature=plpp_video