Define KF, as realistic modern martial art

[Subitai]

Ray wrote in closed thread post #127:
The claim is that Kung Fu as a practical, realistic modern martial art is dead. The evidence of this, NO ONE uses it in the UFC.... the highest level of martial arts competition in the Western World.


The BOLD sentence being the problem at hand...which is defining purpose.

UFC is very far from realistic confrontations. I don't need to go into why sport is different than street or what an average person encounters in everyday life. If you don't know, then you're sadly misinformed.

True, TOP MMA/UFC atheletes are awesome because the live, breath, eat and train to be bad arse in their venue. Because that is their PURPOSE to WIN in competition.

They do not represent the MASS population, which has a different purpose.

But If you can say that TMA of any kind (including CMA):

* Has won in competition (which it has)
* Has been used successfully in real world street fights (which it has)
* Has been focused more on self defense and better health ( ditto)

...Then you cannot say that Kung fu is dead or doesn't have purpose.

As a teacher, It's true I currently focus more on self defense and to make my life better (also my student's lives)

But not to be mistaken for a hippie, I'm always ready at the drop of a hat to throw down with anyone who steps in my face. That's just my personality but also because as a NON Chinese Sifu...I often have to just to get respect, so be it.

But don't roll or lump everyone together into one Useless hippie dog pile. There are plenty of people like me who are willing to fight...mabe not for competition anymore...but nonetheless still wiliing.

It's just that my goals in life are different.

why do I feel like ROSS is watching?
haha, "O"

[Dale Dugas]

Brother,

I am in the same boat as you.

Have worked as a bouncer and used my skills to defend not only myself but others.

I really have no idea how to respond to people who think fighting in a ring in bike tights with rules is somehow a better representation of fighting skills than a street fight where there are no rules.

I just keep teaching my students how to deal with reality and how to not get killed.

[MightyB]

The claim is that Kung Fu as a practical, realistic modern martial art is dead. The evidence of this, NO ONE uses it in the UFC.... the highest level of martial arts competition in the Western World.

Every time someone hits, kicks, throws, and locks someone - they're using TCMA!




Meditate on that for awhile.

[Dragonzbane76]

MMA=Mixed martial arts. It comes from a wide mixture of traditional arts. I think a lot of people have forgotten that. I get tired of the stupid rants some people go over and over. It's tiring actually. We've all seen and heard it a million times. It's old and worn out. Honestly I don't care anymore whether a traditionalist can fight or not. All I care about is what I do and how I do it. If people want to blow there own horn ohh well, blow away.

[Lucas]

The fact of the matter is; for every jack off that says cma is worthless, there is a cma practitioner that could beat his ass. There are far to many men involved in training ANY martial style for this to not be the case. Only ignorant people with self inflicted delusions cant see how simple of a truth that is. Those people are not actually capable of holding even a semi intelligent conversation on the subject. As Confucius says: If i bring up one corner of the conversation, and you cannot even bring one of the other three corners into the discussion, you simply are not worth talking to. Thats where i am now witj jokers like that. Infantile minds are a waste of my time.

[hskwarrior]

when it comes to the world of traditional gung fu, no one cares about what Ray Pina thinks, at all.

[Pork Chop]

why do I feel like ROSS is watching?


Dare I say I miss the grouchy old man? :p

[Lucas]

Dare I say I miss the grouchy old man? :p

i always thot it sucked he took off. He may scare the townsfolk, but he was often that shining beacon of fug u

[David Jamieson]

Clearly each of us is responsible for taking a video cam with us everywhere, getting into fights, then taping them and submitting them to certain individuals who will then judge us and then admonish us about how crappy we are and how what we have done isn't anything like what Brock Lesnar would do in a back lane at night...

I think some people are just shocked that many of us "get it", but don't give it buy in for the context that is most often given.

well, tough titty.

[Yao Sing]

Well at 57 years old I certainly won't be proving the value of CMA in the UFC or any MMA event.

So that's 2 threads locked now. Are we going for more? :D

[Snipsky]

Well at 57 years old I certainly won't be proving the value of CMA in the UFC or any MMA event.

I highly doubt ray pina will be going to the UFC or any other fighting venue of this calibre in the near future as well.

[Jimbo]

MMA=Mixed martial arts. It comes from a wide mixture of traditional arts. I think a lot of people have forgotten that. I get tired of the stupid rants some people go over and over. It's tiring actually. We've all seen and heard it a million times. It's old and worn out. Honestly I don't care anymore whether a traditionalist can fight or not. All I care about is what I do and how I do it. If people want to blow there own horn ohh well, blow away.

Agreed 100%.

[ginosifu]

Define KF, as realistic modern martial art :

Evidence #1
My 10 year old student was being bullied by another girl. The girl grabbed her and she (my student), used Chinese Shuai Chiao I taught her and tossed the girl on her a$s. The school principle student told me this himself.

Evidence #2
My 11 year old student defended a smaller 10 year boy from several bullies at school. He. When the bullies attacked the 10 year old, he stepped and kicked and punced and made the bully boys back off.

Evidence #3
Once a guy was trying to beat down his wife... I stepped in front of her, blocking his attempt to get at her. When he swang at me, I caught his right hook with my left eagles claw and then applied a right claw to his throat. This ended the situation right there.

This could go on and on, I have many more such stoires that provide proff that TCMA can work as a realistic modern Martial Art.

ginosifu

[SPJ]

labeling or relabeling

we have been pretty much fighting the same way with open hands since stones ages

some one comes along and re names or re calls the same things over and over

we still fight the same way but with a different name or label.

skills or techniques work only in a certain context

what ever conditions/rules will dictate the optimal techniques in that scenario

stand up vs ground

grappling vs striking

KO vs throw/take down

on and on.

every technique used in MMA or Boxing ring

guess what there are also chinese terms for them or similar technique if not exactly the same in styles of kung fu.

again

call whatever you want

we fight the same way under the same conditions or rules

so kick box away kung fu way or mma way or boxing way

etc etc

[Drake]

CLF is MMA, actually.

TCMA is, by definition, MMA, because over the years, they were all influenced by others.

Only a dude who lived on a mountain fighting nobody else has a pure art. Otherwise, it's only natural we take what works from other styles.

[hskwarrior]

UFC fighter Alex Caseras is a JDK and BJJ fighter..

Alex Caceres
June 20, 1988 (age 23)
Other names Bruce Leroy
Nationality American
Height 5 ft 10 in (1.78 m)
Weight 135 lb (61 kg; 9.6 st)
Division Bantamweight
Featherweight
Lightweight
Reach 73 in (190 cm)
Style Jeet Kune Do, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
Stance Southpaw

[dirtyrat]

Define KF, as realistic modern martial art :

Evidence #1
My 10 year old student was being bullied by another girl. The girl grabbed her and she (my student), used Chinese Shuai Chiao I taught her and tossed the girl on her a$s. The school principle student told me this himself.

Evidence #2
My 11 year old student defended a smaller 10 year boy from several bullies at school. He. When the bullies attacked the 10 year old, he stepped and kicked and punced and made the bully boys back off.

Evidence #3
Once a guy was trying to beat down his wife... I stepped in front of her, blocking his attempt to get at her. When he swang at me, I caught his right hook with my left eagles claw and then applied a right claw to his throat. This ended the situation right there.

This could go on and on, I have many more such stoires that provide proff that TCMA can work as a realistic modern Martial Art.

ginosifu

ah, but if you can't provide videos of said events then they're not really evidence... ;)

the only thing i'll say about TCMA as a realistic modern martial art is that the practice of ancients weapons like swords and spears, while fun, are not readily applicable in today's world of firearms. knives and clubs defense and use would still be valid however.

[hskwarrior]

the only thing i'll say about TCMA as a realistic modern is that the practice of ancients weapons like swords and spears, while fun, are not readily applicable in today's world of firearms

not everyone carries a gun. Most don't want to kill someone with a gun unless they are desperate. you are more likely to fight someone with no gun that you are with one. having a good handle and understanding of short weapons like a club, sword, ax, or what ever can still be applied with makeshift weapons.

[dirtyrat]

not everyone carries a gun. Most don't want to kill someone with a gun unless they are desperate. you are more likely to fight someone with no gun that you are with one. having a good handle and understanding of short weapons like a club, sword, ax, or what ever can still be applied with makeshift weapons.

i agreed. but to be a realistic modern ma, i feel that firearm defense should still be address, however low a probability such an encounter would be.

[hskwarrior]

i agreed. but to be a realistic modern ma, i feel that firearm defense should still be address, however low a probability such an encounter would be.

true. we gotta learn like they did in the movie Equilibrium

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPD6TbYVbNc

[dirtyrat]

true. we gotta learn like they did in the movie Equilibrium

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPD6TbYVbNc

LOL!!!! i bow before the master....

[hskwarrior]

hahahahah nice!

[ginosifu]

ah, but if you can't provide videos of said events then they're not really evidence... ;)

the only thing i'll say about TCMA as a realistic modern martial art is that the practice of ancients weapons like swords and spears, while fun, are not readily applicable in today's world of firearms. knives and clubs defense and use would still be valid however.

Yes...you are right, I may not be able to prove it to the haters. However it is proof enough for me and that's all that really counts.


CLF is MMA, actually.

TCMA is, by definition, MMA, because over the years, they were all influenced by others.

Only a dude who lived on a mountain fighting nobody else has a pure art. Otherwise, it's only natural we take what works from other styles.

Are you saying that everything today is JKD? I agree with that many people have multiple MA training and end up with a "MIXED MARTIAL ARTS" system they practice.

The only thing I would disaggree with is that TCMA is MMA. In the past masters would complete an entire CMA system then.... maybe move off to learn another CMA system. Some of them blended their arts together and evolution turned them into a brand new style.

Todays people just learn a little Judo... and a little Choy Lee Fut.... and maybe some BJJ. Put that all together and you get a hodge podge of MMA. Same like JKD, not to dis on any JKD players, but adding a technique from Wing Chun and a little Kali and a little escrima is the same thing, a Hodge Podge of MMA.

My humble opinion is to stick something until you have a good unerstanding of the theory and principle before you discard it and move on to something else.

ginosifu

[Neeros]

ah, but if you can't provide videos of said events then they're not really evidence... ;)

the only thing i'll say about TCMA as a realistic modern martial art is that the practice of ancients weapons like swords and spears, while fun, are not readily applicable in today's world of firearms. knives and clubs defense and use would still be valid however.

That is arguable.

If you can use a sword for combat, you can use tree branch for combat.

If you can use a spear/staff for combat, you can use a broom handle or a pool stick, etc for combat.

Not to mention the training it gives the body is very applicable to empty hand fighting. *Shrugs*

Not every fight involves guns. In fact I have never had a (real) gun drawn on me. I am sure others have though. :o

[dirtyrat]

That is arguable.

If you can use a sword for combat, you can use tree branch for combat.

If you can use a spear/staff for combat, you can use a broom handle or a pool stick, etc for combat.

Not to mention the training it gives the body is very applicable to empty hand fighting. *Shrugs*

Not every fight involves guns. In fact I have never had a (real) gun drawn on me. I am sure others have though. :o

anything is arguable ;).

sword use is a bit different than using a tree branch/club... though i agree on the point of staff use.

the point i was trying to make is rather than practicing sword or spear forms, why not make the training more direct for today's modern needs... tradition is a wonderful thing, but tradition was made to benefit people. we shouldn't be slaves to tradition.

[Drake]

Yes...you are right, I may not be able to prove it to the haters. However it is proof enough for me and that's all that really counts.



Are you saying that everything today is JKD? I agree with that many people have multiple MA training and end up with a "MIXED MARTIAL ARTS" system they practice.

The only thing I would disaggree with is that TCMA is MMA. In the past masters would complete an entire CMA system then.... maybe move off to learn another CMA system. Some of them blended their arts together and evolution turned them into a brand new style.

Todays people just learn a little Judo... and a little Choy Lee Fut.... and maybe some BJJ. Put that all together and you get a hodge podge of MMA. Same like JKD, not to dis on any JKD players, but adding a technique from Wing Chun and a little Kali and a little escrima is the same thing, a Hodge Podge of MMA.

My humble opinion is to stick something until you have a good unerstanding of the theory and principle before you discard it and move on to something else.

ginosifu

CLF is a mix of styles. Not going into the specifics of the history, because it always starts a threadjack, but CLF was born out of several different styles. The name alone is a representative of three different teachers, each with three different backgrounds.

MMA is really just a play with semantics, same with TCMA. If MMA is literally mixed martial arts, then every style in the world is MMA. There isn't a single style out there that doesn't borrow something from another. And if this did exist, then it would be ineffective against most anything else, because they failed to humble themselves to the prospect that someone else figured out how to do something better.

TCMA IS MMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I am a TCMA.
I have practical AND sport combat experience.
I also have experience and ranking in NON TCMA ( Boxing,Kyokushin, MT, Judo, BJJ, etc...).
What is Kung Fu to me?
What are TCMA do me?
Fighting at its base and core level ( one must fight to be a fighter and one must first be a fighter before he can be a martial artist).
But that is just the beginning of TCMA.
The problem is that too many people don't do enough of fighting and too m any people think that fighting is all there is to MA.

[David Jamieson]

This argument is as tired as grandmas tits

are we collectively so thick that we can't move onto another subject after all these years? what a waste of time.

Martial ability is in the hands.
I don't really give buy in to much of what people say here and i don't expect buy in from anyone either.

But I know stupid when I see it. :p

[Ray Pina]

I really have no idea how to respond to people who think fighting in a ring in bike tights with rules is somehow a better representation of fighting skills than a street fight where there are no rules.


Relativity is how.

Beating up a drunk bum vs squaring off against a well trained, martial athlete with at least 8 to 10 years devoted to beating your a$$.

Also, relative size.

A self-made famous internal master had made a career posting about his tough ghetto thug life, tons of video of Kung Fu wizardry against students drilling... offered to fight a similar sized MMAer. Not interested anymore.

You become better by competing. It is this way in all things (gold, surfing, business, war).... you become the best by beating the best, not by talking about it. There's tons of bums drinking beer last night watching the Super Bawl talking about their high school glory days. The best guys are on the field.... they always are.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Yes...you are right, I may not be able to prove it to the haters. However it is proof enough for me and that's all that really counts.



Are you saying that everything today is JKD? I agree with that many people have multiple MA training and end up with a "MIXED MARTIAL ARTS" system they practice.

The only thing I would disaggree with is that TCMA is MMA. In the past masters would complete an entire CMA system then.... maybe move off to learn another CMA system. Some of them blended their arts together and evolution turned them into a brand new style.

Todays people just learn a little Judo... and a little Choy Lee Fut.... and maybe some BJJ. Put that all together and you get a hodge podge of MMA. Same like JKD, not to dis on any JKD players, but adding a technique from Wing Chun and a little Kali and a little escrima is the same thing, a Hodge Podge of MMA.

My humble opinion is to stick something until you have a good unerstanding of the theory and principle before you discard it and move on to something else.

ginosifu

Hodgepodge of Judo, Choy Lee Fut, & BJJ > "pure single style" CMA.

[GeneChing]

But not to be mistaken for a hippie, I'm always ready at the drop of a hat to throw down with anyone who steps in my face. ROFLMAO. Seriously, bro, that quote made my Monday.

[Subitai]

ROFLMAO. Seriously, bro, that quote made my Monday.

Ok, in hindsite I realize that someone like you would know vastly more about what are TRUE hippies and whom are not.

....Since in addition to arresting hundreds of them you probably also partied with Triple that number!!!

Hahahahaha,
"O"

[Gru Bianca]

Relativity is how.

Beating up a drunk bum vs squaring off against a well trained, martial athlete with at least 8 to 10 years devoted to beating your a$$.

Also, relative size.

A self-made famous internal master had made a career posting about his tough ghetto thug life, tons of video of Kung Fu wizardry against students drilling... offered to fight a similar sized MMAer. Not interested anymore.

You become better by competing. It is this way in all things (gold, surfing, business, war).... you become the best by beating the best, not by talking about it. There's tons of bums drinking beer last night watching the Super Bawl talking about their high school glory days. The best guys are on the field.... they always are.

Are you referring to Black Taoist? If I'm not mistaken a couple of years back he had invited you (the bulldog on a leash) to visit him and immediately you went kitty kitty.....have visited him since then? If you have not then common sense would dictate that you should rather keep quiet instead of being the hypocrit you are........just saying

[Ray Pina]

Are you referring to Black Taoist? If I'm not mistaken a couple of years back he had invited you (the bulldog on a leash) to visit him and immediately you went kitty kitty.....have visited him since then? If you have not then common sense would dictate that you should rather keep quiet instead of being the hypocrit you are........just saying

Did Black Taoist challenge folks below his weight class and then duck an MMAer? Is that what you're asking me?

As far as my personal experience with him there was some drama with a student of his that also trained with my old teacher. This student caused problems with the "he said" "she said."

Black Taoist did pay a visit during the day to my master.... who was 65 years old at the time (very brave).

At the time I was a member of a school and could not speak or act freely.... I'm off the leash today.

Do you represent Mr. Taoist? Are you his manager? Is Mr. Taoist interested in some sanctioned activity?

[Yao Sing]

I have never heard the word "sanctioned" so much in my entire life. It's getting old.

I mean I do understand your caution about talking crap to someone without a ref handy to keep you from serious injury. :D:D:D

Busting your chops Ray. :p

[Gru Bianca]

Did Black Taoist challenge folks below his weight class and then duck an MMAer? Is that what you're asking me?

As far as my personal experience with him there was some drama with a student of his that also trained with my old teacher. This student caused problems with the "he said" "she said."

Black Taoist did pay a visit during the day to my master.... who was 65 years old at the time (very brave).

At the time I was a member of a school and could not speak or act freely.... I'm off the leash today.

Do you represent Mr. Taoist? Are you his manager? Is Mr. Taoist interested in some sanctioned activity?

I'm a nobody just someone noticing your incongruencies and your hypocrisy, that's all

[Pork Chop]

As far as my personal experience with him there was some drama with a student of his that also trained with my old teacher. This student caused problems with the "he said" "she said."

If I'm not mistaken, some of that was getting kicked off around the time of the Wong Fei Hung Tournament in New Jersey circa 2002~2003.
A lot of us were at that event:
Me, O, TenTigers, BT, maoshan, meltdawn, and a bunch of others.
small world.

[Ray Pina]

I have never heard the word "sanctioned" so much in my entire life. It's getting old.
p

Well, we can take the word of the sifu's who have students schooling MMAers away at college, the teachers who have bounced, been stabbed, etc..... or we can rely on irrefutable facts such as listed fighters, their records and how they won or lost.

You can have a 6'9" man challenge 5'4" 65 year old..... or you can go square off with equally sized men eager to fight.


Its like anything else. If you think you're good at golf, tennis, surfing, baseball..... you go compete in sanctioned events. You get bored of abusing regulars. You push your level.

Don't make fun of it. If it was easy you'd have done it. One of you would go do it to shut me up.

[hskwarrior]

Well, we can take the word of the sifu's who have students schooling MMAers away at college, the teachers who have bounced, been stabbed, etc..... or we can rely on irrefutable facts such as listed fighters, their records and how they won or lost.

regardless......no matter what anyone does, RAY PINA IS NOT A CHAMPION .....ANYWHERE. SO WHY SHOULD ANYONE LISTEN TO A NON CHAMPION?


One of you would go do it to shut me up.

no amount of CLEAR CUT evidence would ever get acknowledged by your dense as$ I can pretty much tell you, YOU WILL NEVER IN YOUR LIFE BE A UFC STAR.......HAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Peaceful Orchid]

regardless......no matter what anyone does, RAY PINA IS NOT A CHAMPION .....ANYWHERE. SO WHY SHOULD ANYONE LISTEN TO A NON CHAMPION?

Because what he says make sense.

[Lucas]

Because what he says make sense.

correction, a good portion of what he says makes sense, yes. but also the silly ness of the tunnel vision exists.

regardless of what any of you think, there are cma practitioners competing, and yes winning, in pro and amature mma.

and that is a simple fact, no ammount of masturbation will change that.

[SavvySavage]

I'm so confused. Did this blacktaoist guy actually challenge Ray's teacher or not? And if he did what ended up happening?

[Featherstone]

Ray is one heck of a copy and paste artist, I think I have seen the same thing from him in almost every post made today :confused:

Ah well...:cool:

[hskwarrior]

Ray is one heck of a copy and paste artist, I think I have seen the same thing from him in almost every post made today

Ah well...

I think he's like some gung fu hating computer virus or something. but you're right, he FOREVER repeats himself and continuously overlooks any proof people give him. no matter what, he'll try and twist the truth to keep playing his broken record.

I think he might be related to Charlie Zelenoff or something. I think it might be best to just completely ignore him altogether. regardless of how many times he will post the SOS he always does. there is no sense in trying to converse with him. At all.

[Featherstone]

Kind of like rainman, maybe he's good at counting cards or numbers or something. "kungfu is dead, kung fu is dead, kung fu is dead, yeah, kung fu is dead..............":p

[hskwarrior]

Kind of like rainman, maybe he's good at counting cards or numbers or something. "kungfu is dead, kung fu is dead, kung fu is dead, yeah, kung fu is dead.............."


LMAO exactly!!!! :D:D:D

[Pork Chop]

I think he might be related to Charlie Zelenoff or something.

Weird that people know who Charlie Z is; I guess I didn't know how widely his story spread.
He was originally a troll-ish type of character on East Side Boxing or Boxing Scene.
I remember when another forum member beat the living tar out of him & filmed it.
According to google, his legend spread to sherdog and he even got a beat down from Floyd Mayweather Sr.
Crazy how successful the guy is at being a loser.

[hskwarrior]

Weird that people know who Charlie Z is;

i stumbled across his vids and couldn't believe what i was seeing. LOL.

Yeah the guy is known to photoshop himself with females....even a kim kardashian..sorry for spelling error....

I feel the guy will one day commit suicide because no one will ever take him seriously. but he's a straight up wacko.