View Full Version : The Art in Martial art
Yao Sing
02-03-2012, 06:45 PM
A comment on another thread (more interested in martial than art) got me to thinking about the Art concept of Martial Art and what it means to me as well as wondering what others think it means. I don't think art means the same as other of it. It's not the non-martial aspects like fringe training.
So what is the Art in Martial Art to you?
I generally have a different viewpoint than the rest of the crowd but here's how I see it.
The art comes in when you own the style and can express it in your own way. I believe this goes beyond the basics and becomes more clear as you're able to dominate your opponent.
I'm sure some will see it in basic bread-n-butter moves done in a textbook fashion but to me that's Martial Science. The art can been seen more in the case of the guys who "showboat" and throw unconventional techniques.
Granted there's value in sticking to basics with high success percentage but I don't see any art there at all.
Punch.HeadButt
02-03-2012, 07:01 PM
Art is a product of human creativity. Any skill that is learned and practiced is an art, really. Doesn't have to be pretty to be art. It just needs to be a skill that is born from the human mind and refined to a high degree.
I don't make a separation between the "martial" and the "art" in martial arts anymore. Martial art = combative skill. Martial = combative, art = skill.
dirtyrat
02-03-2012, 09:34 PM
when i was kid growing up, i taught my self how to draw because my uncle got me hooked on comic books.
later in life i would take art classes, but more than any teacher i studied under was a book i read that changed my take on art.
it taught me that along with the component skills we used (ie shading, cross-hatching, etc) were perception skills (ie. perception of edges, spaces, relationships, lights & shadows, etc) which are more important.
when you learn to see (shift your perception) drawing becomes easy.
this carried over for when i got in involved in martial art or any other art for that matter. so for me, martial art was a way to teach myself, through martial skills, a new way of looking at things in general and at myself in particular.
bawang
02-04-2012, 07:50 AM
who gave the term "martial art"?
in chinese the term does not exist. you blind yourself. americans are obsessed with categories and labels , the words themselves overtake the real thing.
3 words in chinese
1. shu skills or techniques or jitsu in japanese
martial skills or fighting techniques wu shu or bu jitsu
2. dao way, path do in japanese
wu dao or bu do
3. xue study or everything
wu xue
arts are abstracts and all encompassing
wu xue or martial study is all encompassing
etc etc
dirtyrat
02-04-2012, 10:00 AM
who gave the term "martial art"?
i blame the guys who invented forms practice. ;)
the term was said to have been used in europe centuries ago.
whatever you call it, it is what it is today (in large part because of the Chinese). for me its more than just self-defense (it actually makes for a poor system; obsolete)....
YouKnowWho
02-04-2012, 10:57 AM
Granted there's value in sticking to basics with high success percentage but I don't see any art there at all.
If you can take your opponent down and "smash" his head on the hard ground at the same time, you have reached to the "art" level. Not everybody have this kind of flexibility and balance. That's why it's an "art".
Crosshandz
02-04-2012, 11:09 AM
Art:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lck_sqdIkdE/TbzIab-1ZHI/AAAAAAAACk0/Q6TXKVJek38/s1600/Randy+Couture+vs.+Lyoto+Machida+4.gif
:)
Drake
02-04-2012, 12:09 PM
who gave the term "martial art"?
in chinese the term does not exist. you blind yourself. americans are obsessed with categories and labels , the words themselves overtake the real thing.
We stole your culture, renamed it, and now sell it to kids. We are also taking your womenz.
Chinese think they are taking over the west, but who's eating McDonalds and talking on iPhones?
hskwarrior
02-04-2012, 12:24 PM
Chinese think they are taking over the west, but who's eating McDonalds and talking on iPhones?
after hearing what i heard recently on the news about Mickey D's i think i'll pass on everything but their shakes and their fries......
Crosshandz
02-04-2012, 02:45 PM
after hearing what i heard recently on the news about Mickey D's i think i'll pass on everything but their shakes and their fries......
The shakes, you got any idea what they put in that stuff to make it so frothy? Dude. If you're gonna eat McD's you just gotta do what the rest of us do: accept it for what it is and focus on the fact that its cheap and that the additives make it taste real good. ;)
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SRm2TL9qK0k/SSjdY3RMKFI/AAAAAAAAAJ0/8tO1vGx6yWg/s400/Big+Tasty+Brazil.jpg
ummmmmmmm
after hearing what i heard recently on the news about Mickey D's i think i'll pass on everything but their shakes and their fries......
its called a shake and not a MILKshake for a reason. stay away from that sh1t man. all of it. the apple slices for the kids are even questionable.
A comment on another thread (more interested in martial than art) got me to thinking about the Art concept of Martial Art and what it means to me as well as wondering what others think it means. I don't think art means the same as other of it. It's not the non-martial aspects like fringe training.
My comment, yes?
I already said what I think in the other thread.
I appreciate the art. But my focus for even looking at MA's was for combat effectiveness. Even my earler misguided loyalties to ONLY purity were in search of combat effectiveness. I am no form collector, and I never will be. But there are a few I love and will always practice.
I think if health and inner balance is your main focus then you should probably stick to forms and light sparring. No sense of banging yourself up if you don't plan on using it.
when i was kid growing up, i taught my self how to draw because my uncle got me hooked on comic books.
later in life i would take art classes, but more than any teacher i studied under was a book i read that changed my take on art.
it taught me that along with the component skills we used (ie shading, cross-hatching, etc) were perception skills (ie. perception of edges, spaces, relationships, lights & shadows, etc) which are more important.
when you learn to see (shift your perception) drawing becomes easy.
this carried over for when i got in involved in martial art or any other art for that matter. so for me, martial art was a way to teach myself, through martial skills, a new way of looking at things in general and at myself in particular.
That's a good answer. I like that.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SRm2TL9qK0k/SSjdY3RMKFI/AAAAAAAAAJ0/8tO1vGx6yWg/s400/Big+Tasty+Brazil.jpg
ummmmmmmm
You have never had a burger from any mcd1cks that ever looked like that. EVER. recently that guy did the side by side shots of the ad and the real thing. A good laugh, for sure. I don't really care what my food looks like, as long as I like the taste and it isn't hurting me.
dirtyrat
02-04-2012, 07:17 PM
Art:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lck_sqdIkdE/TbzIab-1ZHI/AAAAAAAACk0/Q6TXKVJek38/s1600/Randy+Couture+vs.+Lyoto+Machida+4.gif
:)
and its a beeauuutiful thing!!! :D
things about big Mac in China
buddhist and daoist belief
they do not eat beef.
chicken is ok that is why KFC took fly in PR China.
:)
PalmStriker
02-04-2012, 09:31 PM
who gave the term "martial art"?
in chinese the term does not exist. you blind yourself. americans are obsessed with categories and labels , the words themselves overtake the real thing.
Agreed. And I'm a nativeAmerican. :D
PalmStriker
02-04-2012, 09:36 PM
after hearing what i heard recently on the news about Mickey D's i think i'll pass on everything but their shakes and their fries......
"What about their womenz?" :D
omarthefish
02-05-2012, 07:39 PM
who gave the term "martial art"?
in chinese the term does not exist.
武艺 《--- just sayin. :p
Graculus
02-06-2012, 06:31 AM
I think the 'art' term may have come through Japanese sources : bugei (武芸) is a recognised term referring to the classical martial skills of the samurai. The gei part is art.
My own take on it is when you go beyond 'mere' skill, you enter the realm of art. This means that it is an area which relies on intuition and other difficult to categorize faculties, and is an indication of mastery or extreme proficiency. (Of course, going beyond means that you have the skill first...).
In modern military terms, I have heard of a distinction between the science of war and the art of war: science referring to technology in this case, and art to the skillful application to achieve victory.
Both are somewhat similar, and not namby pamby in the slightest.
Graculus
http://ichijoji.blogspot.com
sanjuro_ronin
02-06-2012, 08:23 AM
The art in martial art is NOT beauty ( one can quite logically argue that there is nothing beautiful about violence).
It is the self-expression that one is SUPPOSE to do have when they do THEIR MA.
You really can't separate one from the other unless you remove the individual expression from MA ( what lots of people seem to do by the way).
The art is the way the martial changes US and the way WE change the Martial.
wu shu
is more about techniques, tactics and strategy, skills or methods
wu yi
is a category term, any thing related to fighting or battle is grouped into or classified or categorized as wu yi
training, philosophy, ----
wu xue
encompassing everything, wu yi + wu shu + history + medicine regarding healing injury from fighting, war psychology. ----------
---
omarthefish
02-06-2012, 08:35 AM
I think the 'art' term may have come through Japanese sources : bugei (武芸) is a recognised term referring to the classical martial skills of the samurai. The gei part is art.
Actually, the same exact term is used in old Chinese. It's an older term than wushu but it's not particularly limited to any social class in China.
In any case, I headed out earlier thinking when I got back for sure someone would have posted a rant about how "art" just means "skill" as in "the art of war" but I'm pleasantly surprised that a couple people managed to actually address the deeper connotations of the word "art".
The short answer I think, and I really liked Ronin's description too, is that there is definitely a reason why in English we have need for both the words "art" and "skill". Part of is is that "art" implies a particularly high level of skill but I think the more pertinant detail is that "Art" should be compared to "Science". Like when someone says, for example, "Medicine is sometimes more of an art than a science." Wuyi is not quite the same as Wushu but the "yi" in Wuyi (Bugei in Japanese) basically means "skill", same as "shu". It's the connotation that is different. So yeah, it certainly doesn't mean "beautiful" or even "artistic" but it can definitely mean "art".
I suppose, as Bawang said, there really is no term in Chinese that means exactly the same as "martial art" but that does't really mean much. There's no word in Chinese that means exactly the same thing as "noodles" either. Ironic eh?
ShaolinDan
02-06-2012, 08:57 AM
Funny. I'm currently taking a TEFL/TESL (Teach English as a Foreign/Second Language) certification course. One of the chapters in our book is "Teaching: Art or Science?" Of course, the conclusion is that it's both art and science.
Some aspects are more like science, other aspects are more like art, but ultimately it all blends together. Synthesis. The same could be said of playing music, painting, carpentry, etc. Martial Arts isn't unique in this ambiguity.
Ray Pina
02-06-2012, 09:39 AM
Granted there's value in sticking to basics with high success percentage but I don't see any art there at all.
AN 8th degree black belt under Carlson Grace said a couple weeks ago while down here, champion win "from the rice and beans well done."
Everything is basics. Art is making something difficult appear easy, natural, fluid, graceful.
Yao Sing
02-06-2012, 12:10 PM
Art is making something difficult appear easy, natural, fluid, graceful.
Hey, Ray said something I like!!! I'm ready for the Apocalypse now. :D
Now to stir the pot - did Condit display martial art?
Seriously, he danced around avoiding pretty much everything and landed shots at will. And barely broke a sweat.
How about that Emanuel Augustus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvkRpykP6mQ) guy posted in another thread clowning around making his opponents look like clumsy fools?
Yum Cha
02-06-2012, 01:55 PM
Art is in the doing, not what has been done. The dance, the painting, the expression.
The left over painting, the recording of the music, the video of the dance are only shadows on a cave wall.
There is no value judgement in an art, other than the one you impose on your own creative spirit.
I don't believe you rise to a level of art, only that YOUR art gets better as you exercise it and expand your horizons.
Isn't this what "Fu" is all about?
As any multi-lingual person knows, words do not match up one to one, and depending on the national culture, even concepts can be reoriented to approach the same meaning.
Where westerners go wrong is in thinking you rise to the level of "Art", whereas the real meaning is in the dilligence, persistence and mindfulness of the exercise.
The Martial bit is a little bit more obvious at face value....
bawang
02-06-2012, 01:56 PM
武艺 《--- just sayin. :p
qijiguang used the term wuyi in his book. he defined it as the "business of killing people"
Drake
02-06-2012, 02:06 PM
You have never had a burger from any mcd1cks that ever looked like that. EVER. recently that guy did the side by side shots of the ad and the real thing. A good laugh, for sure. I don't really care what my food looks like, as long as I like the taste and it isn't hurting me.
Taste is deceptive, and scientifically manufactured to trick your body. As for not hurting you? Fast food, no matter what you get, PERIOD, it is hurting you. In fact it is hurting you, the environment, independent farmers and ranchers, small businesses, animals, and keeping those "fat cats" everyone laments about, on the high horse.
If you even TOUCH fast food, you should just STFU about anything having to do with the rich or government lobbyists.... because you are paying their bills and making them stronger by the day... ergo, making you a hypocrite.
wenshu
02-06-2012, 02:07 PM
http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/not-capable-of-cooking.jpg
bawang
02-06-2012, 02:08 PM
are you saying KFC is bad?
Yao Sing
02-06-2012, 02:13 PM
I'm developing a new fast food made from recycled cardboard, flavor substitutes and artificial coloring to sell to folks who like eating artificial foods. That way we can keep trash out of the landfills AND feed the poor at a reasonable cost.
I'm considering calling the restaurant chain MucDavids. :)
Drake
02-06-2012, 02:14 PM
are you saying KFC is bad?
What do you think? You can unearth the lies behind commercialized kung fu, then have to ask me if KFC is bad?
David Jamieson
02-06-2012, 02:16 PM
All the fries in China come from a McCains plant in Canada.
So eat em up!
they're salty and starchy and over time will make you fat and seize your heart. But go ahead anyway and remember, because of large corporations becoming successful and advertising, you don't have to be responsible for yourself or accountable for your actions! Go ahead! Kill yourself! do it now, they're lovin it! lol :p
wenshu
02-06-2012, 02:17 PM
are you saying KFC is bad?
http://i.imgur.com/nLiDT.jpg
I wish they would open a Chinese style KFC in North America.
David Jamieson
02-06-2012, 02:17 PM
Art is in the doing, not what has been done. The dance, the painting, the expression.
The left over painting, the recording of the music, the video of the dance are only shadows on a cave wall.
There is no value judgement in an art, other than the one you impose on your own creative spirit.
I don't believe you rise to a level of art, only that YOUR art gets better as you exercise it and expand your horizons.
Isn't this what "Fu" is all about?
As any multi-lingual person knows, words do not match up one to one, and depending on the national culture, even concepts can be reoriented to approach the same meaning.
Where westerners go wrong is in thinking you rise to the level of "Art", whereas the real meaning is in the dilligence, persistence and mindfulness of the exercise.
The Martial bit is a little bit more obvious at face value....
Cool post.
Drake
02-06-2012, 02:18 PM
But the underlying point is, everyone whines about the "evil corporations" and the "evil 1%", then chug a six-pack of Coke to wash down their Fritos. Then they get on their corporate-manufactured computers and browse websites, plunking dollars into corporate coffers.
As long as you are a sucker for sparklies and nom noms, you are basically complaining about yourself every time you go after the rich.
As for me, the farms I buy from, I've watched come from the brink of collapse, and I tend to lean Microsoft for most computing needs, because I believe Bill Gates does good things for the world.
I also buy from Martialartsmart when I need anything training related.
David Jamieson
02-06-2012, 02:19 PM
I also buy from Martialartsmart when I need anything training related.
This can't be bolded enough! :p
Yao Sing
02-06-2012, 02:47 PM
I tend to lean Microsoft for most computing needs, because I believe Bill Gates does good things for the world.
Like sterilizing poor folks with vaccines to help reduce the population?
Gates said:
"The world today has 6.8 billion people... that's headed up to about 9 billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we could lower that by perhaps 10 or 15 percent."
Exactly how do you reduce the population with vaccines anyhow?
"Previous vaccination programs have been shown to have covertly been used to sterilize women. In 1995, the Supreme Court of the Philippines found that vaccines used in a UNICEF anti-tetanus vaccination program contained B-hCG, which when given in a vaccine, permanently destroys women's ability to sustain a pregnancy. Aproximately three million women had already been given the vaccine."
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2010/mar/10030810
David Jamieson
02-06-2012, 03:03 PM
Like sterilizing poor folks with vaccines to help reduce the population?
Gates said:
"The world today has 6.8 billion people... that's headed up to about 9 billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we could lower that by perhaps 10 or 15 percent."
Exactly how do you reduce the population with vaccines anyhow?
"Previous vaccination programs have been shown to have covertly been used to sterilize women. In 1995, the Supreme Court of the Philippines found that vaccines used in a UNICEF anti-tetanus vaccination program contained B-hCG, which when given in a vaccine, permanently destroys women's ability to sustain a pregnancy. Aproximately three million women had already been given the vaccine."
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2010/mar/10030810
I don't think you're getting the gist of the statement.
vaccines decrease infant mortality, health care reduces all mortality, reproductive helath services provides abortions to rape victims but more so, provides condom, iuds, female condoms and most importantly EDUCATION.
These are all legitimate attacks on over population.
You're not one of those vaccine's are poison types are you?
Drake
02-06-2012, 03:07 PM
On the subject of population...
We have to face some pretty grim facts here. Are we going to reduce our population now, or are we just going to stick our heads in the sand and wait for mass starvation, resources drying up, and general global chaos?
Come on... this is simple math.
While I think you utterly misread that, it does bring up a point. Should we sterilize folks now... or do we wait for everything around us to collapse? The world's population is doing nothing but rising.
Yao Sing
02-06-2012, 03:12 PM
Poblem is who decides who gets sterilized.
Yao Sing
02-06-2012, 03:14 PM
Oh, and the assumption (there's that word again) is that with healthier babies people won't have as many kids. I seriously doubt that big time. Any hard facts to support that?
How many people plan the number of kids based on there chances of surviving to adulthood?
bawang
02-06-2012, 03:23 PM
kernel sanders has taught me that in this cold world, only the strong survive. the weak must perish. if the baby chickens must suffer for me to enjoy their sweet, sweet meat, then so be it.
Drake
02-06-2012, 03:53 PM
kernel sanders has taught me that in this cold world, only the strong survive. the weak must perish. if the baby chickens must suffer for me to enjoy their sweet, sweet meat, then so be it.
Heh... they are killing you and your people, and you think it's tasty.
*giggle*
You know... antifreeze is actually sweet-tasting...
bawang
02-06-2012, 08:09 PM
i am a warrior. i am not afraid of death.
*rubs testicles
Drake
02-06-2012, 09:21 PM
i am a warrior. i am not afraid of death.
*rubs testicles
What about dying slowly from being fat?
hskwarrior
02-06-2012, 09:44 PM
What about dying slowly from being fat?
be like me and go to the gym.....:D
bawang
02-07-2012, 06:46 AM
i used to be embarrased about chinese eating dogs. but now i understand.
we eat dogs because we love them.
this is the true spirit of chinese martial arts.
art in general to me
is an expression
therefore there is the "self"
music and cooking
writing and painting
we need to have the same level of understanding to appreciate other's art
some have talents
some need education or training
some are good
some are not so good
just like smell, some do not like the stench from salted fish
some like it a lot
I used to think wing chun is too rigid
I like pi gua better with full swing of arms
later on
I knew that you may have smaller circles or swings from pi gua, too
and vice versa
in the end
to each his or her own
my shyte is not your shyte
etc etc
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