Forms

[Minghequan]

Please, your thoughts on forms (Quantao/Taolu).

How many forms is enough?

Should the focus be less forms deeper understanding?

Is there any historical basis for this? If so, please share.

[YouKnowWho]

Forms are designed for "teaching" and "learning" only. It's not designed for "training".

[ShaolinDan]

I have mixed feelings about lots of forms vs. few forms.
The logic of just mastering a few makes sense to me, however, the greatest exponents of kung fu (from what I've seen) all seem to know tons of forms.
My own feeling in my training is that a lot is good at the beginning because it teaches you how to move. Then it's good to just focus on a few and really master them. (intermediate)

After that it becomes really easy to learn new forms, so if you enjoy forms you can learn lots and lots of them.

[ginosifu]

Please, your thoughts on forms (Quantao/Taolu).

How many forms is enough?

Should the focus be less forms deeper understanding?

Is there any historical basis for this? If so, please share.

Forms have several purposes:

#1. Basic training and developing certain skills / kungs. Beginners can learn the rudements of CMA thru the dilegent practice of forms. Strength, Agility, Speed, Flexibility, cardio vascular, dynamic strength etc etc all can be developed by the beginner kung fu palyer.

#2 I think that forms represent the demonstration / performance part of kung fu. Many masters would do forms as demonstrations in town centers, carnivals, operas, Kwoon Grand Openings etc etc. Advertizing / marketing along time ago did not involve TV ads or mass mailing. The best way to advertize was to perform somewhere to get people to come and join your school.

#3 Modern day performance art. Tournaments can be a way to let your student compete against others and see how well they are doing their forms compared to others. It also lets beginners see other forms from other schools which can excite the student to train harder.

#4 Lastly forms can enhance training for the advanced student. Forms like Iron Wire can lead the advanced student to look at their structure, develope internal power, etc etc.

There are reasons for other people. These are just mine

ginosifu

[RenDaHai]

Forms are designed for "teaching" and "learning" only. It's not designed for "training".

I see what you're getting at here, but I think one can 'train' with forms.

Most stances used in forms take techniques to their extreme limits. For example you may spin your waste a full 180 degrees between punches in a form. In reality, you probably won't do that, but the more you do it in form, the further you can go when you need it. This applies with all the transitions in forms. So I think they help train agility, if you train them well. You can get a real good workout just from training a form, but it depends how you do it.


@the rest

On How many is enough, many people say you should just master a few.... I don't think this is a good idea. Changeability is extremely important in all MA. If you always do the same moves in the same way you become less changeable. If you learn many forms, it gets you beyond this problem. Similarly if you learn none at all, but rather frequently free style with individual moves, you also get past the problem. The 'Jack of all trades' idea doesn't apply to learning many forms, as all forms are one trade. If you become good at form, you will become good at any form. So if you are going down the forms method I say learn many, but do each one well before progressing and frequently go back to it.


Forms are not essential... But personally I find them a constant inspiration.

On training with forms though we must remember the old Kung Fu adage... 'Lian Quan bu lian gong, dao lao yi chang kong'

For example, if you are training with Tiger Claw, this tells you you should spend more time training the actual tiger claw than the forms that use it. You can apply that to all.

[SPJ]

tao and lu are 2 words

tao is a set

lu is a road or a path

there can be many and many sets, true

do we need to practice all of them, may be not

to me if you place a few moves in a sequence

it is a set.

jia or frame is more of training oriented

gong jia is to practice gong with a few moves in a sequence

da jia or big frame is with a fully extended posture with arms and legs or just longer frame.

xia jia or small frame is with compact postures or essential moves in a short/compact frame

--

in the end, do not attach too much thinking into set, path or frame

put a few moves together in a logical sequence

and practice a way

--

recalling all the moves in a right sequence

did not mean anything beyond remembering the sequence

we may always randomize our moves

we may create any forms in a instance, that is

--

[TenTigers]

forms are divided into two categories; Kuen Faht-text book of techniques, concepts of the system, and Gung Faht-developmental training-stance, power generation, breathing, rooting, hei-gung, etc.
How many do you need? Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. In some systems, one form contains everything. Some systems have several, each one building upon the next, each one developing a specific skill.
Too many, and you are a forms collector, spending too much time on learning each new form, rather than drilling. The Shaw bros movies cater to this mentality-the hero learns the Tiger Crane form and now suddenly has the skill to defeat Bak Mei and avenge his Master, yadda-yadda..and people to this day actually believe this to be true, and chase forms after form, hoping to discover the magic bullet to make them a Master.
Case in point-my teacher is talking to some kid who has been training for several years. He has learned probably 20 forms- in five years.
My teachers says, "I've been training for over 38 yrs., and I can count all the forms I know on one hand."

[David Jamieson]

forms are divided into two categories; Kuen Faht-text book of techniques, concepts of the system, and Gung Faht-developmental training-stance, power generation, breathing, rooting, hei-gung, etc.
How many do you need? Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. In some systems, one form contains everything. Some systems have several, each one building upon the next, each one developing a specific skill.
Too many, and you are a forms collector, spending too much time on learning each new form, rather than drilling. The Shaw bros movies cater to this mentality-the hero learns the Tiger Crane form and now suddenly has the skill to defeat Bak Mei and avenge his Master, yadda-yadda..and people to this day actually believe this to be true, and chase forms after form, hoping to discover the magic bullet to make them a Master.
Case in point-my teacher is talking to some kid who has been training for several years. He has learned probably 20 forms- in five years.
My teachers says, "I've been training for over 38 yrs., and I can count all the forms I know on one hand."

^ This :) ...

[ShaolinDan]

Thing is, there's a ton of overlap between forms. No matter what empty hand form (that I've learned) I chose to practice, I'll still be practicing the same ten or so basic techniques more than anything else. Just in different sequence, or with minor variations...
Improving one form will make you better at all your forms--at a certain level you can learn new forms well without much sacrifice of training time. Whether that's a worthwhile thing to do or not depends on the practitioner, but I don't see any harm in it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I know about 6 different types of "sanchin".
I know the "sanchin" of Southern Mantis, of Okinawan Goju ( 2 types), of Japanese Kyokushin, of Uechi-ryu, of Fujian White Crane ( 2 types(, etc.
Each one gives you something different, develops something different and that is the whole point of having a variety of forms.
You certainly don't need ANY forms at all, but that doesn't mean that can't be useful.
Depending on what I am working on in a particular cycle, I will choose the form that bests suits it ( a "strength building" form or a "speed" one or an "internal one").
I suspect that has always been the case.
Some teachers would teach a form one way to one student and another way to another because they were developing different things.
So what if there is 100 different ways to do "sanchin" or that one guy does his Iron wire slowly and another do sit explosively or another combines the two.
It depends on what is being developed.

[PlumDragon]

Forms and other solo training methods are great when you dont have a teacher, student, or training partner available to directly interact with. Forms for qigong, cardio, flexibility, cataloging the system, etc etc is all fine and good if those are your interests.

But beyond that, when you are around others who you train with, spending undue time on forms is potentially a serious waste of valuable training time.

[YouKnowWho]

I think one can 'train' with forms.

You can also divide a form into many drills and train those drills separately. You can also modify your drills according to your need (map abstract form into concrete drills).

Some forms were designed to train "beginners". The SC form #1 - #4 have only hand moves but no leg moves. The SC form #5 - #6 have only leg moves but no hand moves (hands hold on the waist). It's easier for beginner to learn this way. If you still train the same form when you are 80 years old exactly as you were taught, you may just treat yourself as beginner all your life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8unXvs5flqo

[bawang]

form is a bunch of random mvoements i teach to the white peoples so they give me the monays.

[David Jamieson]

form is a bunch of random mvoements i teach to the white peoples so they give me the monays.

Crikey, someone is actually calling you sifu now?

I knew it would come to this. I'm calling Barak and Vlad and telling them to go ahead an push those buttons.

[David Jamieson]

You can also divide a form into many drills and train those drills separately. You can also modify your drills according to your need (map abstract form into concrete drills).

Some forms were designed to train "beginners". The SC form #1 - #4 have only hand moves but no leg moves. The SC form #5 - #6 have only leg moves but no hand moves (hands hold on the waist). It's easier for beginner to learn this way. If you still train the same form when you are 80 years old exactly as you were taught, you may just treat yourself as beginner all your life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8unXvs5flqo

Are you advocating progressive extrapolation from the given materials of a style or system?

Why I never! I am shocked at your viewpoint and method! :eek:


:p

[Drake]

Crikey, someone is actually calling you sifu now?

I knew it would come to this. I'm calling Barak and Vlad and telling them to go ahead an push those buttons.

Hell, if he looks even remotely Chinese, he could probably call himself Grandmaster and get away with it.

Just have to memorize some pithy phrases from the I Ching and Sun Tsu's stuff. Oh, and mumble stuff in mandarin....

Easy $$.

Us white folks actually have to go in and give the people smallpox, or blockade their imports until they have no choice to attack, then villainize them, nuke them, and rebuild them because we are so **** nice.

It's hard being white.

[David Jamieson]

Hell, if he looks even remotely Chinese, he could probably call himself Grandmaster and get away with it.

Just have to memorize some pithy phrases from the I Ching and Sun Tsu's stuff. Oh, and mumble stuff in mandarin....

Easy $$.

Us white folks actually have to go in and give the people smallpox, or blockade their imports until they have no choice to attack, then villainize them, nuke them, and rebuild them because we are so **** nice.

It's hard being white.

It's like some kind of burden or something... :p

[bawang]

Crikey, someone is actually calling you sifu now?

I knew it would come to this. I'm calling Barak and Vlad and telling them to go ahead an push those buttons.
that was a joke. i would rather die than reveal the secrets of kung fu to the hairy ones.

[TenTigers]

that was a joke. i would rather die than reveal the secrets of kung fu to the hairy ones.
you mean Italian wimenz?

[wenshu]

that was a joke. i would rather die than reveal the secrets of kung fu to the hairy ones.


you mean Italian wimenz?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW_fbbGJz0M

[Gru Bianca]

you mean Italian wimenz?

To which Italian women have you been exposed to????:confused::eek::confused:

[Drake]

To which Italian women have you been exposed to????:confused::eek::confused:

Quite a few. Spent several years in Europe. :D

The best GF I had over there was Eastern European, though. I still wonder how she's doing.

[Gru Bianca]

Quite a few. Spent several years in Europe. :D

The best GF I had over there was Eastern European, though. I still wonder how she's doing.

Very nice indeed :D and the hairiest was?

[ginosifu]

that was a joke. i would rather die than reveal the secrets of kung fu to the hairy ones.

Bawang is actually right. When I was in China 15 years ago, they made fun of us cuz we had body and facial hair. It's not quite so bad today though... China is a bit more modern.


you mean Italian wimenz?


To which Italian women have you been exposed to????:confused::eek::confused:

When I was visiting relatives in Sicily, I swear every last dark haired woman had a mustache and legs hairyier then mine.

ginosifu

[Brule]

Forms are good exercise when you don't have a training partner. If you see a room full of students doing solo forms the whole time, then forms serve a different purpose, to get the monehs, as Bawang Sifu says.

[bawang]

all forms are not equal. some forms teach more and are more realistic than others. most american kung fu guys are familiar with chinatown kungfu which are made up dogsh1t.


from shaolin 24 cannons the first move is "wind blows snow". you raise your right shoulder to fake, fake a left hook, then a right hook. compare this to chinatown kung fu where you do some weird ass hand movements in horse stance, and havent even got to the salute yet.

when i tried to show 24 cannons to some white dudes they insisted i made it up, it was boxing. you guys are in love with that chop socky bullsh1t. so this is your own fault.

[TenTigers]

To which Italian women have you been exposed to????:confused::eek::confused:
When I was in High School, I was 16,
my (Italian) Girlfriend had a moustache and I didn't!:p
(ok, she was Sicilian...)

[SPJ]

a few moves strung in a logical comb

is called a posture or shi

most of the time we practice a few moves in a row

or combo

after a while from a move or posture

we may derive more

thus a routine exists

as pointed out

not all forms are of the same construct or beast

[dirtyrat]

all forms are not equal. some forms teach more and are more realistic than others. most american kung fu guys are familiar with chinatown kungfu which are made up dogsh1t.


from shaolin 24 cannons the first move is "wind blows snow". you raise your right shoulder to fake, fake a left hook, then a right hook. compare this to chinatown kung fu where you do some weird ass hand movements in horse stance, and havent even got to the salute yet.

when i tried to show 24 cannons to some white dudes they insisted i made it up, it was boxing. you guys are in love with that chop socky bullsh1t. so this is your own fault.

bawang, could you provide videos that show examples of both types of forms?

[Drake]

Very nice indeed :D and the hairiest was?

Not a one of them. Very fit, very sweet. :)

They can be very opinionated... though I'd take that over demure and submissive...

[Gru Bianca]

When I was in High School, I was 16,
my (Italian) Girlfriend had a moustache and I didn't!:p
(ok, she was Sicilian...)

There you have it ;)

[Gru Bianca]

Not a one of them. Very fit, very sweet. :)

They can be very opinionated... though I'd take that over demure and submissive...

I didn't have any doubt about that :). So where did you meet them? Milan or Torin?

[David Jamieson]

Wanna know what Gina will look like in a while?
Look at her mom.

This is always true.

[Drake]

I didn't have any doubt about that :). So where did you meet them? Milan or Torin?

Wiesbaden and Mainz, Germany :D

Though I have been to Milano and Torino a few times...

[Gru Bianca]

Wanna know what Gina will look like in a while?
Look at her mom.

This is always true.

Good principle, valid also for "Katy", "Meili", "Lolita" so on so forth;)

[Gru Bianca]

Wiesbaden and Mainz, Germany :D

Though I have been to Milano and Torino a few times...

Well one day perhaps we'll sit at the same table and you'll tell me more about your European experiences :D