A MMA fighter would fall the fak off!!!!

[hskwarrior]

Nothing to do with fighting, but it does have something to do with rooftops and a kung fu master.......

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d67_1328477846

[Chadderz]

A gymnast could do it too, and I bet you won't find a professional fighter dancing on rooftops :p

[Peaceful Orchid]

Nothing to do with fighting, but it does have something to do with rooftops and a kung fu master.......

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d67_1328477846

You're right. That had nothing to do with fighting.

[Ray Pina]

An MMA fighter would not weigh their combat effectiveness by standing on a roof.... their form, their chai sau, their line drills, lion dancing.

[Ray Pina]

.... its hard not to sound like a grumpy old Kung Fu hater, but the ridiculous things posted here require being called out if we're to remain honest.

Less bull$hit. More video of all your students raising the level of TCMA. <----- that's what's needed.

[Chadderz]

Less bull$hit. More video of all your students raising the level of TCMA. <----- that's what's needed.

QFT! I want to see bad-ass kung-fu!

[Drake]

QFT! I want to see bad-ass kung-fu!

Bow to your sensei... BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!

[wenshu]

Bow to your sensei... BOW TO YOUR SENSEI!


http://www.grillwilson.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/kk_martin_kove_01.jpg

We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak. Here, in the streets, in competition. A man confronts you, he is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy.

[GeneChing]

An MMA fighter would not weigh their combat effectiveness by standing on a roof.... their form, their chai sau, their line drills, lion dancing.
Why would an MMA fighter bother with Lion Dancing when he could be Dancing with the Stars (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55016)?

[David Jamieson]

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - I don't know who said this, but it's true.

[hskwarrior]

.... its hard not to sound like a grumpy old Kung Fu hater, but the ridiculous things posted here require being called out if we're to remain honest.

Less bull$hit. More video of all your students raising the level of TCMA. <----- that's what's

you are THE grumpy old kung fu hater if not anything else. Blah Blah mickey fickey blah. you could never do what that guy was doing.



An MMA fighter would not weigh their combat effectiveness by standing on a roof.... their form, their chai sau, their line drills, lion dancing.


like Snipsky keeps saying to you......YOU ARE BORING THE LIFE OUT OF ME with your constant repetitiveness. you must like to torture yourself by coming to a kung fu forum. is it because the MMA forums don't like you either?

[Yao Sing]

Maybe if we talk about anything BUT fighting Ray will go away. :eek:

[Ray Pina]

you could never do what that guy was doing.


Are you really impressed by that? Waving his arms around a bit and hoping both feet a few inches?

The scenery is nice. But roofs and jack a$$es are a dime a dozen.

[hskwarrior]

Maybe if we talk about anything BUT fighting Ray will go away.

I've been wondering if everyone DID agree with him what would be left for him to talk about. I mean, he totally sucks at forms & Lion Dancing. I'm also pretty sure he couldn't even dance.

I wonder if when he talks in his sleep he says the same things he does here. I'd really hate to be stuck on one mode like him. His mind is completely tunnel visioned.


Are you really impressed by that? Waving his arms around a bit and hoping both feet a few inches?

The scenery is nice. But roofs and jack a$$es are a dime a dozen.

Talking about that video is extremely more interesting than what you FOREVER spout off about.

Please, do yourself a favor when you get married and the priest says "you may now kiss the bride" don't go asking him and any people at your wedding "what does that have to do with fighting? can you win the UFC or any MMA matches sanctioned by the pope by kissing? Only fantasy pajama pant wearing lion dancing kung fu people kiss at a wedding!!!!!"

for some reason, i dout you'd be able to resist. LMAO.

[GeneChing]

Maybe if we talk about anything BUT fighting Ray will go away. :eek:
Ray gives us something to chat about. Personally, I'd prefer chatting about volleyball fu (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55016) today, but that's just me apparently. :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys are a bunch of primadonnas with sandy vaginas.
Ray is simply stating his opinion and while it is not 100% informed, he hasn't said anything that is basically wrong.
In a nutshell Ray, regardless of how "loud" he is saying, isn't saying anything that h as been said about TCMA since the beginning of the 20th century.
Ray problem is that he likes beating a dead horse and the reason he seems to feel he "has" to is because there are still people that pull the " sport is sport and there are no rules on the street" silliness.
So as much as we hate Ray's schtick, it is no less stupid than that aforementioned argument against sport combat.

[hskwarrior]

You guys are a bunch of primadonnas with sandy vaginas.

i prefer to call it "Sandy Candy" Got it? Get it? Good! lmao.

[David Jamieson]

See? This is why we can't have nice things.

This perfectly good video or an old man doing something really cool that many young men couldn't do and somehow this has gotten back round to being about how Ray flaps his nuts.

That is what is so painfully stupid about Ray's commentary. it's as if he thinks we don't understand. Mind you, he's not the only butt jockey who attacks the newbs and postures about his own greatness in DA RING!!!!

yeesh.

can't we admire skill?

[wenshu]

Are some of his points valid? Absolutely. Most people already know this.

Here's the thing. People keep pointing to perfectly good examples of Chinese martial arts that fit his nebulous criteria for "effectiveness" and he either just outright ignores it or adjusts the standards in the first place.

In nearly every single post he claims "this isn't about me" of course this statement is both immediately preceded and followed by his resume and justifications about his club fighter record; "me, me, me, me".

Is there anything wrong with being an insufferably insecure ego maniac? Of course not. He's obviously trolling for attention so let him have it.

This isn't even about martial arts at all. This is about Ray making himself feel better by having something to denigrate. That's why he conveniently ignores any post that points to decent examples. He wants to be a bully but can't find any kids on the playground with any lunch money.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are some of his points valid? Absolutely. Most people already know this.

Here's the thing. People keep pointing to perfectly good examples of Chinese martial arts that fit his nebulous criteria for "effectiveness" and he either just outright ignores it or adjusts the standards in the first place.

In nearly every single post he claims "this isn't about me" of course this statement is both immediately preceded and followed by his resume and justifications about his club fighter record; "me, me, me, me".

Is there anything wrong with being an insufferably insecure ego maniac? Of course not. He's obviously trolling for attention so let him have it.

This isn't even about martial arts at all. This is about Ray making himself feel better by having something to denigrate. That's why he conveniently ignores any post that points to decent examples. He wants to be a bully but can't find any kids on the playground with any lunch money.

Of course there is an insecurity issue and an inferiority complex.
My point is that until the stupidity of the "their are no rules on the street" gets eliminated, there will always be a "Ray" and rightly so.
Insecurity begets AND attracts insecurity.

[Lucas]

until the stupidity of the "their are no rules on the street" gets eliminated, there will always be and rightly so.


I agree completely.

[hskwarrior]

can't we admire skill?

Thats why i posted it. but i knew that ray pina would start with the same old sh1t thats found on virtually every thread about kung fu.

anyway, one misstep and it would be all over. that old guy had bawls of steel the way he jumped up and down and performing his shaolin stuff from end to end without a visual sign of fear. his sense of balance is awesome. i would never in my life try something like that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree completely.

Thank you.
I am the first to say to Ray, Holy crap dude, old freaking news !
BUT I can't stand that every time he says what he says the standard reply is : That is sport, kung fu is fir the street !
What a load of **** pubes !
Seriously.
When was the last time that anyone faced a highly trained, disciplined and motivated fighter on the street? a guy that KNOWS how to fight and CAN fight?
I can tell you when, never.
In all the years I bounced and served I NEVER once faced "in the street" a guy with half the talent as the likes that I faced in the ring.
And those goes for 99% of every bouncer or LEO you can find that has done BOTH "real" and "sport" fighting.
Here is the truth of the matter:
Everyone KNOWS that the street has no rules, so it is NOT a factor since bOTH fighter can do what they want.
Here is the other truth:
You will never hear a guy that has competed and fought for "real" use these words:
" but in the street there are no rules and you can kick the groin and poke the eyes".

In the street people get shot and stabbed and beaten and attacked by drunks and druggies and gangs and guess what?
TCMA AND sport arts do NOT train against NONE of that so they BOTH as "useless".
****ing period !
:mad:

[wenshu]

My point is that until the stupidity of the "their are no rules on the street" gets eliminated.

While I don't subscribe to this particular conceit myself, I think there is some truth to it.

Everyone on both sides argues these things as if they are always clean cut black and white. All of column A but none of column B or vice versa which is just needlessly inflexible and oversimplified.

Training for competition and training for self defense are complimentary. Competition should just be seen as a form of practice for self defense. However the methods have to be adjusted to some degree to account for the variability of real world situations.

[Yao Sing]

anyway, one misstep and it would be all over. that old guy had bawls of steel the way he jumped up and down and performing his shaolin stuff from end to end without a visual sign of fear. his sense of balance is awesome. i would never in my life try something like that.

I thought you did do that one time and lost. :p
:D:D:D

[hskwarrior]

In the street people get shot and stabbed and beaten and attacked by drunks and druggies and gangs and guess what?
TCMA AND sport arts do NOT train against NONE of that so they BOTH as "useless".
****ing period !


now who's got the SANDY CANDY hahahahahahaha :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

While I don't subscribe to this particular conceit myself, I think there is some truth to it.

Everyone on both sides argues these things as if they are always clean cut black and white. All of column A but none of column B or vice versa which is just needlessly inflexible and oversimplified.

Training for competition and training for self defense are complimentary. Competition should just be seen as a form of practice for self defense. However the methods have to be adjusted to some degree to account for the variability of real world situations.

After over 20 years of sport AND "real" fighting, IMHO, there is very little do it at all.
The only things I have faced outside the ring that I never faced in it were:
Drunks and coke heads ( although I did fight a coke head in an Vale tudo match).
Sucker punches, broken bottle and glasses, knives, machete ( yep) and high heels ( yep) and getting shot at.
And guess what?
Never trained to deal with that stuff in ANY TMA I have ever studied.

[sanjuro_ronin]

now who's got the SANDY CANDY hahahahahahaha :D

BWWAHH !!
Frank knows the candy !
:D

[David Jamieson]

yeesh,,, except that more than half the time it is the hyperbole of all the rays out there that construct the kung fu guy who thinks street is different etc etc.

Typical of the nut rider to show up and say:

"Kung fu is always going on about how it's for the street and that ..."

But, show me the propensity of threads started by Kung Fu guys who are saying "well I train for the eye poking reality of the street"...

yeah, NOBODY touts that line and I will poke the eyes of the next one who does.

Every single practitioner I know who actually practices understands what Kung Fu is, what boxing is, what kickboxing is and so on and gives value to all of it and sees something of interest in all of it. To the last.

1st year kids? maybe not, but how is that different from a guy with 3 months on a mat coming into a kung fu forum and pooping all over the advice of a kung fu sifu who has been at it for 20 or 30 years?

Not acceptable.

we get it.

that some people are too frigging stupid to understand that we get it isn't my fault and I'll call them on their stupid posturing and strawman arguments as much as I can.

Because F**K you posers. That's why. :p

[hskwarrior]

Drunks and coke heads ( although I did fight a coke head in an Vale tudo match).
Sucker punches, broken bottle and glasses, knives, machete ( yep) and high heels ( yep) and getting shot at.

This is the environment i grew up in and still apart of and its what we typically train for.

true story i've told before. One of my junior classmates was hanging out in front of the cow palace at midnight. he was talking to this girl when suddenly her boyfriend appeared and the confrontation began....my jr classmate was drinking that night. her boyfriend suddenly left them standing there. so they resumed talking when out of the corner of my jr classmates eye he saw something swinging for his head and he instinctually went to block it. turned out it was a machete swinging for his head and his block absorbed the strike. unfortunately the machete struck between the middle and ring fingers splitting his hand wide open. He thanked my sifu later for the type of training we did because he would have been killed by the machete.

afterwards we knicknamed him LEFTY because it was his left hand that was split.

all im saying is i live in such an area and those are some of the same things we have to worry about here in SF.

[wenshu]

After over 20 years of sport AND "real" fighting, IMHO, there is very little do it at all.
The only things I have faced outside the ring that I never faced in it were:
Drunks and coke heads ( although I did fight a coke head in an Vale tudo match).
Sucker punches, broken bottle and glasses, knives, machete ( yep) and high heels ( yep) and getting shot at.
And guess what?
Never trained to deal with that stuff in ANY TMA I have ever studied.

I was referring to techniques not the environmental factors. For instance learning Shuai Jiao throws without the jacket.

[hskwarrior]

I was referring to techniques not the environmental factors. For instance learning Shuai Jiao throws without the jacket.

street fighters have been hip to that since young kids. we learned alot on the streets which included body slams and sprawling. before i knew it had a name i was pretty good with the guillotine. :D jus sayin :rolleyes:

[Chadderz]

I was just wondering why the title of the thread has "a MMA fighter would fall the fak off!!!!"?

Surely that entices an argument? That's the only reason I clicked on this thread :p

[David Jamieson]

street fighters have been hip to that since young kids. we learned alot on the streets which included body slams and sprawling. before i knew it had a name i was pretty good with the guillotine. :D jus sayin :rolleyes:

I always look for a plate glass window. Preferably an old one, but max double glazed. Triple glazed is difficult to ram a guy through it. :p

p.s Chadderz, it is titled in such a way because Frank is antagonistic towards people who make fun of the fu. And, he's antagonistic.

Did I mention that Frank will occasionally antagonize others?

[hskwarrior]

I was just wondering why the title of the thread has "a MMA fighter would fall the fak off!!!!"?

Surely that entices an argument? That's the only reason I clicked on this thread

It was intended to give MMA people here a little friendly nudge because MMA moves like brutas...while KONG FOO is so fluid and smooth moving.

but i posted it really to say WHOA WTF? it was about fearlessness of possibly making one wrong step and falling to his death and to compliment his balance. :D

no fo realz....fesheezy.

[Yao Sing]

The only things I have faced outside the ring that I never faced in it were:
Drunks and coke heads ( although I did fight a coke head in an Vale tudo match).
Sucker punches, broken bottle and glasses, knives, machete ( yep) and high heels ( yep) and getting shot at.
And guess what?
Never trained to deal with that stuff in ANY TMA I have ever studied.

I generally like your posts but you're painting the rest of us with your own background brush and assume none of us have trained or experienced things you haven't.

Seriously, you never did any type of knife attack training (good or bad) in a TMA class? I have. Probable others here have as well.

Do you really think nobody addresses any of that stuff when they teach? I seem to continually be the odd man out if what you say goes for everyone else on the forum.

My very first Kenpo school we trained street situations, clubs, knives, etc. We even had to train in street clothes because that's what we would be wearing when a fight goes down, no surprises you know?

[hskwarrior]

Did I mention that Frank will occasionally antagonize others?

But hey! I do it wearing underoos. unlike SOMMMME people i know :rolleyes::p

[wenshu]

My very first Kenpo school we trained street situations, clubs, knives, etc. We even had to train in street clothes because that's what we would be wearing when a fight goes down, no surprises you know?

When you say kempo I immediately imagine compliant drills.

So basically a guy stands there with his arm out in front of him except this time he's holding a rubber knife while someone performs a dozen flashy moves to disarm him?

[David Jamieson]

at least a dozen! + 6 or 7 superfluous moves to finish off the sequence!

we did a lot of this, but not really the compliant stuff, just dull aluminums, wooden blades and my personal favourite, marker pens!

the compliance stuff should happen in the demonstration, then free style it.

also, NO frankenstein stabbing.

[Yao Sing]

When you say kempo I immediately imagine compliant drills.

So basically a guy stands there with his arm out in front of him except this time he's holding a rubber knife while someone performs a dozen flashy moves to disarm him?

Yep, you got it exactly. First part of the "exercise" is getting your partner to attack EXACTLY like you tell him to do and that takes time. Before long you have the "routine" down perfect until you have to do it with the next guy. Usually we only get through 1 or 2 guys each class.

DUH!!!

Why does everyone make such lame assumptions all the time?

Funny, but this is the same school that an ex-marine Golden Gloves Boxer told the instructor that even though I was a higher rank he could easily beat me in a real fight (I was a young, skinny, long-hair hippy back then). The instructor told him he would match us up for sparring and he could go full out. I blocked everything he threw but I noticed he was swinging pretty hard so I dropped him with a well placed kick to the solar plexus. Afterwards I found out about the deal the instructor made with him. I didn't even know it was for real.

This same instructor threatened to pull a students rank if he didn't hit me when drilling a technique. Even though he couldn't he kept his rank. The instructor only did that to make sure he was really trying.

So no, not exactly compliant practice. BTW, that was back around 1974 so maybe Im stuck in the past with my training beliefs.

[Ray Pina]

Here's the thing. People keep pointing to perfectly good examples of Chinese martial arts that fit his nebulous criteria for "effectiveness" and he either just outright ignores it or adjusts the standards in the first place.
.

The video is of a man flapping his arms on a roof. I can send you video of old men playing the guitar on a roof, guys jumping doing back flips off of roofs. Forget what the French are doing jumping from roofs to roofs..... none of this conveys a knowledge of martial arts.

There's always the newbie who enters a gym and feels compelled to do some high kicks.... to let everyone know they can do high kicks.... usually the insecurity of a TMAer changing schools.

The flipping, high kicks. Means nothing. Shows little.

Doing less but showing more would be break falling and demonstrating getting up with posture, sprawling. Some nice mechanical shadow boxing.... with hip and knees and shoulder and wrists all connected. Good use of elbows.

These things, while less glamerous, show more..... but even they don't reveal one's ability, just hints at their level of training, understanding.

I haven't redefined the standard. You can't get fight credit without fighting. You can't show form, shadow boxing, bag work and make the claim "I can".... until you go and do it yourself. Then you have a standard. And it will automatically improve. And you can monitor it.

You don't know what I'm talking about, because you haven't.

[hskwarrior]

The video is of a man flapping his arms on a roof. I can send you video of old men playing the guitar on a roof, guys jumping doing back flips off of roofs. Forget what the French are doing jumping from roofs to roofs..... none of this conveys a knowledge of martial arts.


i BET you won't send a video of a MMA Champion who can do what that guy did. you're too dense to understand how dangerous what he was doing was. you can't see pasted your honker much less admit that people have indeed shown you video of chinese martial arts effectively working in professional fights.


Doing less but showing more would be break falling and demonstrating getting up with posture, sprawling. Some nice mechanical shadow boxing.... with hip and knees and shoulder and wrists all connected. Good use of elbows.

These things, while less glamerous, show more..... but even they don't reveal one's ability, just hints at their level of training, understanding.

prime example of your OUTRIGHT DENSITY. :rolleyes:

[Ray Pina]

S
This perfectly good video or an old man doing something really cool that many young men couldn't do and somehow this has gotten back round to being about how Ray flaps his nuts.

He's doing something cool I guess.... flapping his arms and hopping. I give him that's great. Lot's of fun. It in no way displays any knowledge of martial arts or the ability to apply it.



That is what is so painfully stupid about Ray's commentary. it's as if he thinks we don't understand.

If you understood you'd be embarrassed about all these pages of text, locking and deleting subjects...... you'd realize there is only one way to prove that your fighting is at the level of equally experienced MMAers.

What does that mean? Many sifu here have what, 10, 15, 20 years training and teaching.

Go compare with a 15 year trained BJJ black belt. Go compare with an amateur MMA fighter who's only been training for competition for 3 years. Just three years vs your 10+..... this is not to say now, take the elite of MMA and put then up against the elite of TCMA.... who would that be? Black Taoist and the westcoast dude who claims being a world champ because he pushed a couple CHinese kids of a lei tei in 1980?

Is that going to be you?

No.

Nobody in TCMA is going to do any of that because Kung Fu is dead, hiding in little Kung Fu only tournaments and masturbating publications.

[hskwarrior]

take the elite of MMA and put then up against the elite of TCMA

why the ELITE? you're far from that level. :confused:


Nobody in TCMA is going to do any of that because Kung Fu is dead, hiding in little Kung Fu only tournaments and masturbating publications.

its extremely humours to here you spout off what kung fu can't do in the ring while you ignore the VIDEO EVIDENCE you look for is place right in front of you. LMAO.....

[Ray Pina]

you can't see pasted your honker much less admit that people have indeed shown you video of chinese martial arts effectively working in professional fights.

So far all I've seen is Made in China stamped on Western Kickboxing.

All the fighters shown claim kick boxing as their primary style. The MMAers also listed BJJ and wrestling.... no Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Taiji, Low Gar, Crane, Mantis, ect, etc., etc.

A kick boxer goes to China, wins a tournament, goes with his Chinese kickboxing coach to Shaolin after the fight, to visit.... and you guys claim that:):confused:

Again, since you brought it up, list one current UFC fighter listing any TCMA as his primary style. Still hasn't been done.... lots of truth stretching. Lots of riding on San Da coat tails when those guys are training kick boxing, not sil lum tao.

[Ray Pina]

why the ELITE? you're far from that level. :confused:.

Again, this is not about me.

This is about you and the other kung fu sifu's here,



its extremely humours to here you spout off what kung fu can't do in the ring while you ignore the VIDEO EVIDENCE you look for is place right in front of you. LMAO.....

Honestly, I'm labeling it all TCMA but lets break it down to you..... what you can't do in the ring.

you're a sifu of martial arts, right? Good enough to teach? By what standard? What have you done? What have any of your students done? Have any of you gone out to test in modern venues?

No. No. No. No. Of course not.

But you talk!

....And post videos of others to try to prove your unprovable point. Until someone in TCMA steps up, has some big wins and attributes it to TCMA..... you'll be in the position that you are in.... that even TKD isn't in...... and you're stay in this lowly, rightfully shameful position because Kung Fu is dead. It couldn't regenerate without balls.

[Yao Sing]

I guess if you do one thing you can't possibly be good at another thing. A guy showing off some parkour couldn't possibly be a good fighter. Hope Randy Couture never shows any video of himself at a triathlon or anything.

It's not like being in top physical condition gives you an advantage over regular folks or anything.

Weightlifting doesn't help with fighting because it isn't fighting.
Same with running, nutrition, stretching, etc.

Funny how pro football players take dance lesson to improve agility. Dance isn't football.

Seriously, how narrow minded can you get?

Not meaning you Ray, we already know that answer. :p

[hskwarrior]

So far all I've seen is Made in China stamped on Western Kickboxing.

All the fighters shown claim kick boxing as their primary style. The MMAers also listed BJJ and wrestling.... no Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Taiji, Low Gar, Crane, Mantis, ect, etc., etc.

A kick boxer goes to China, wins a tournament, goes with his Chinese kickboxing coach to Shaolin after the fight, to visit.... and you guys claim that

Again, since you brought it up, list one current UFC fighter listing any TCMA as his primary style. Still hasn't been done.... lots of truth stretching. Lots of riding on San Da coat tails when those guys are training kick boxing, not sil lum tao.

its hella funny how you always have something negative to regardless of the truth.

[Yao Sing]

Isn't Sanda a fighting format, like MMA? Like fighters of different styles fight at a Sanda venue and different style fighters fight in an MMA arena?le.

MMA is not a sty
Sanda is not a style.

Or are Wing Chun guys not allowed at either?

[hskwarrior]

This is about you and the other kung fu sifu's here,

Why are you so preoccupied with us for? I'm pretty confident no one logs off and worries about what you're doing.


you're a sifu of martial arts, right? Good enough to teach? By what standard? What have you done? What have any of your students done? Have any of you gone out to test in modern venues?

That's really none of your business. I'm not trying to take you as a student, so don't worry bout my past. I'm not looking for fame, nor do i have anything to prove. This is why i'm under ground.

On the other hand, everyone i've taught have gone out and spar different styles. For example, one of my students went away for college and he tells me this MMA/BJJ student kept tellin my student our stuff won't work. that was until they sparred, inwhich afterwards the MMA/BJJ guy apologized and admitted its pretty effective.

more stories like that.....but just sayin'........don't worry bout what i do.

[Gru Bianca]

The video is of a man flapping his arms on a roof. I can send you video of old men playing the guitar on a roof, guys jumping doing back flips off of roofs. Forget what the French are doing jumping from roofs to roofs..... none of this conveys a knowledge of martial arts.

There's always the newbie who enters a gym and feels compelled to do some high kicks.... to let everyone know they can do high kicks.... usually the insecurity of a TMAer changing schools.

The flipping, high kicks. Means nothing. Shows little.

Doing less but showing more would be break falling and demonstrating getting up with posture, sprawling. Some nice mechanical shadow boxing.... with hip and knees and shoulder and wrists all connected. Good use of elbows.

These things, while less glamerous, show more..... but even they don't reveal one's ability, just hints at their level of training, understanding.

I haven't redefined the standard. You can't get fight credit without fighting. You can't showform, shadow boxing, bag work and make the claim "I can".... until you go and do it yourself. Then you have a standard. And it will automatically improve. And you can monitor it.

You don't know what I'm talking about, because you haven't.

Shoot..... you really are blind aren't you? Or perhaps it's a problem with my account whereby I'm the only one to see my posts. I've posted 3 times few links to a Hop Gar stylist fighting MMA with his chosen style and winning. Did you pay attention to it? Hell no......you are way too "selective":o

[Lucas]

Shoot..... you really are blind aren't you? Or perhaps it's a problem with my account whereby I'm the only one to see my posts. I've posted 3 times few links to a Hop Gar stylist fighting MMA with his chosen style and winning. Did you pay attention to it? Hell no......you are way too "selective":o

ray is blind. Ive linked him so many fighters. Fulfilled his request with his requests quoted at least 20 times. Whats funny is for years i respected the dude, until his recent diatribe that is...now hes just annoying.

[Gru Bianca]

ray is blind. Ive linked him so many fighters. Fulfilled his request with his requests quoted at least 20 times. Whats funny is for years i respected the dude, until his recent diatribe that is...now hes just annoying.

Yeah, blinder then a real blind cause he chooses not to see. His lost, I give up and from now on skip his pointless posts

[Lee Chiang Po]

Most of the MMA people here are just 3rd rate themselves, even if that. They are just enjoying a ride on the shirt tails of a few individuals. Steriods prevail in the sport and a bunch of them have already been busted on it. Making video clips of yourself is no measure of anything. Ray himself posted some video, and I could not tell which one he was, but neither one were of any fighting skill. They had the guts to fight, but it don't take a whole lot of guts to do that.
It is the same old broken record, over and over again. It is easy to talk tripe about tcma, but there are a whole bunch of tcma people that could wear him out with ease. All their MMA claims ride on the backs of that very few individuals, and not on their own ability. Just doing MMA don't give you anything. That comes with steroids and hours and hours of training.

[hskwarrior]

Again, since you brought it up, list one current UFC fighter listing any TCMA as his primary style. Still hasn't been done.... lots of truth stretching. Lots of riding on San Da coat tails when those guys are training kick boxing, not sil lum tao.

I did. everyone did. you're blind as a feckin bat. i know its selective acknowledgements. but we've all proved you wrong time and time again. that doesn't matter because you aren't a MMA CHAMP, so you're not qualified to tell others they're no good.

its funny, you show videos and pictures allegedly of you when you were thinner and in better shape. then you post a video of you showing some guy how to punch and i think right then people UNDERSTOOD.

[Pork Chop]

So far all I've seen is Made in China stamped on Western Kickboxing.

All the fighters shown claim kick boxing as their primary style. The MMAers also listed BJJ and wrestling.... no Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Taiji, Low Gar, Crane, Mantis, ect, etc., etc.

A kick boxer goes to China, wins a tournament, goes with his Chinese kickboxing coach to Shaolin after the fight, to visit.... and you guys claim that:):confused:


most sanshou people just claim kickboxing to noobs coz it's easier to explain.

the video i posted showed you pat barry doing forms if you actually watched it.

shawn liu was a layman disciple of at least one of the monks of shaolin.
my first sanshou coach trained under shawn liu directly, he was one of the guys who went to china to fight sanda on tv. he had a background in northern shaolin before training with shawn liu. shawn liu taught him forms as well as ring fighting. my coach still insists on his fighters maintaining at least a form or two.

the dan hardy video goes into intimate detail of his experiences at shaolin.

i've trained with tien shan pai guys. one of them not only won the leitai tournament in maryland, but went on to take nationals in amateur muay thai, before placing second at the world's in canada for amateur muay thai, and winning at the world's leitai championships in brazil. he still likes forms.

Kuoshu leitai is no joke, it dates back to 1955, and prior to 1988 there was no face mask. My first kung fu instructor fought leitai in the 80s against a Taiwanese fighter (pretty sure it was the 86 championships in Taiwan). He got knocked out of the ring. I saw footage of him fighting full contact at karate tournaments in Okinawa. He was real, he fought, he just happened to be in declining health by the time I started training with him in 94.

Mike Patterson was of a similar background, from a similar era. I think criticizing him is wrong, he paid his dues and he's created a few generations of fighters.

In the 70s you also had the Southeast Asian Open Martial Arts Tournaments with full contact fighting. Vernon Rieta, Tat Mau Wong, and Chan Sau Chung's guys all came through there. Back then, you had instructors that actually fought before they became teachers.

Being in New York you should know the rep of Paul Vizzio in the 70s or 80s. There's a guy who competed in kickboxing that came from kung fu.

EDIT:
Just so it doesn't seem like I'm hating on everyone these days; Bak Mei's Zhong Luo (http://dragonhousemma.com/school/) is teaching mma folks in cali. They've had success on a local level.
Oh, and let me cite some sources:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=272
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=260

[MasterKiller]

This thread:

http://i.imgur.com/HkIUn.gif

[Ray Pina]

I'm sorry.

You are all right. I am wrong.


I am blinded by the number of pro MMAers claiming TCMA as their primary style.... even though I haven't seen one.

[Ray Pina]

ray is blind. Ive linked him so many fighters. Fulfilled his request with his requests quoted at least 20 times. Whats funny is for years i respected the dude, until his recent diatribe that is...now hes just annoying.

Did you see my response before the post got deleted? Both the fighters you claimed for TCMA claim kick boxing as their primary style.... though one visited Shaolin while on a fight tour in China.

[Ray Pina]

I've posted 3 times few links to a Hop Gar stylist fighting MMA with his chosen style and winning. Did you pay attention to it? Hell no......you are way too "selective":o


Didn't see the video.

Please list the name of the fighter. The state and venue he fought in.

[Pork Chop]

I am blinded by the number of pro MMAers claiming TCMA as their primary style.... even though I haven't seen one.

Now you're just being intentionally obtuse.
Lucas, Gru Bianca, and I have given you tons of links.
We've even avoided low hanging fruit like Cung Le (another Shawn Liu trained fighter) or even Ross (who came on here and broke down exactly what TCMA strategies he still uses a few years back).

Tired of doing your homework for you.
Go back and actually read our posts or just shut the f*** up.

[Lucas]

Did you see my response before the post got deleted? Both the fighters you claimed for TCMA claim kick boxing as their primary style.... though one visited Shaolin while on a fight tour in China.

i think you've got me confused possibly. zhang tiequan began his career as a shuai jiao competitor. then sanda, then mma. its a pretty obvious progression if you actually look.

bro there are a ton of guys that claim shuai jiao as their primary style. you do know what shuai jiao is....right?

in that thread i listed 3 guys on one post. 2 claim shuai jiao. one claims mantis...none claimed 'kick boxing'

[hskwarrior]

Please list the name of the fighter. The state and venue he fought in.

LMAO ok....when he does list them what are you gonna do with that info? LMAO.....

[Pork Chop]

LMAO ok....when he does list them what are you gonna do with that info? LMAO.....

He's going to pull out an un-sourced wiki page that lists what the guy does as kickboxing or judo because the guy tested his stuff in a kickboxing or judo competition. Rinse, repeat.

Listen, I'll be the first to say that some folks need to update their training methods.
Spending most of the week doing forms & lion, with one day devoted to hitting stuff & hitting each other is probably not going to cut it for competition.
But I'll also point out that there can still be some gems mixed in there and that you shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water.

To reference an anecdote you're familiar with - the Buk Sing guys, especially the ones out of Austrailia: they spend a lot more time hitting pads, bags, and each other than forms work. They also test themselves in competition and have done pretty well.

[Pork Chop]

i think you've got me confused possibly.

Yeah, he's talking about me referencing Pat Barry & Dan Hardy; ignoring the fact that both of them have stated explicitly in videos (contained in links I provided) the influence of Shaolin on their mma.

[hskwarrior]

To reference an anecdote you're familiar with - the Buk Sing guys, especially the ones out of Austrailia: they spend a lot more time hitting pads, bags, and each other than forms work. They also test themselves in competition and have done pretty well.

i completely agree with you. Ray is a MMA UFC nut riding idol worshiper.

I find this video extremely more interesting than anything ray pina bumps his gums about....

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a87_1328550174

[Ray Pina]

Now you're just being intentionally obtuse.
Lucas, Gru Bianca, and I have given you tons of links.
We've even avoided low hanging fruit like Cung Le (another Shawn Liu trained fighter) or even Ross (who came on here and broke down exactly what TCMA strategies he still uses a few years back).

Tired of doing your homework for you.
Go back and actually read our posts or just shut the f*** up.

Ross is your TCMA MMA fighter?

Or is it his kick boxing/BJJ MMA training students that you're claiming.

Cung Le is awesome. He's a SanShou legend...... now, do you think he trains more like an MMA stylist (he does claim wrestling, BJJ and TKD as well) or does he train like the TCMA posters here, heavy on form, no competing?

So in other words, would you say Cung Le is a sport fighter or a Kung Fu man? If a Kung Fu man, what styles of Kung Fu does he train? We know he trains Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu. We know he trains kick boxing and wrestling...... how much time a week does he devote to Wing Chun, Hung Gar, ect?

[wenshu]

The Ray Pina Sanctioning Organization's Kung Fu is Not Official Regulatory Sub Committee does not recognize anything that may have the slightest chance of undermining any previous rulings.

The Ray Pina Sanctioning Organization's Kung Fu is Not Official Regulatory Sub Committee would like to inform you that the criteria for Official Kung Fu is subject to change at any time. Furthermore it insists that you continue to submit examples of Official Kung Fu even though they will be summarily disregarded.

[Lucas]

Ross is your TCMA MMA fighter?

Or is it his kick boxing/BJJ MMA training students that you're claiming.

Cung Le is awesome. He's a SanShou legend...... now, do you think he trains more like an MMA stylist (he does claim wrestling, BJJ and TKD as well) or does he train like the TCMA posters here, heavy on form, no competing?

So in other words, would you say Cung Le is a sport fighter or a Kung Fu man? If a Kung Fu man, what styles of Kung Fu does he train? We know he trains Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu. We know he trains kick boxing and wrestling...... how much time a week does he devote to Wing Chun, Hung Gar, ect?

ray, anyone competing in mma will train accordingly..i thought you would know this by now. and yes that does include people who utilize cma in their training regime. why should cma be held to a different standard than say muay thai, karate, etc.? you are rediculous bro.

quit with the double standards.

[hskwarrior]

the ray pina sanctioning organization's kung fu is not official regulatory sub committee does not recognize anything that may have the slightest chance of undermining any previous rulings.

The ray pina sanctioning organization's kung fu is not official regulatory sub committee would like to inform you that the criteria for official kung fu is subject to change at any time. Furthermore it insists that you continue to submit examples of official kung fu even though they will be summarily disregarded.

rotflmfao........


ray, anyone competing in mma will train accordingly..i thought you would know this by now. and yes that does include people who utilize cma in their training regime. why should cma be held to a different standard than say muay thai, karate, etc.? you are rediculous bro.

quit with the double standards.

RAY is that dead horse.........LMAO

[Pork Chop]

Ross is your TCMA MMA fighter?

He's not my anything.
He's a coach, one who explained in great detail how his fight strategies that he passes on to his fighters are influenced and guided by TCMA.
For a fight, you'd have to talk to Rich Acosta or Ian Morgan.
Rich would beat you down and take your lunch money fyi.


So in other words, would you say Cung Le is a sport fighter or a Kung Fu man?

He trains like a sport fighter who fights in mma competition.
Some of his techniques and strategies come from training with Shawn Liu and various Sanshou fighters from China. Those techniques are TCMA in origin.

Aside from Shawn Obasi, who's style looks pretty much like a Wing Chun form, you're not going to find too many fighters that fight like they're doing a form. Just because other fighters aren't moving like they're doing a form, doesn't mean they're not using things from TCMA. "Kickboxing" is what happens when you strap on gloves, removing specialized fists/claws, and also have to worry about more head contact. Fighting in MMA is going to have to involve some background in ground work, so catch, judo, or bjj will be needed.

Erik Paulson was one of the first mma legends. His stuff was very much JKD. Aside from the "mix all styles, take what works" philosophy of JKD, a lot of the actual training is very heavily Wing Chun-influenced.

Nobody's saying you don't re-tool stuff for ring competition. What we're saying is that you don't throw everything away, you just modify and specialize in order to be more successful in a particular venue. There are some sifus/coaches out there who have done the re-tooling process and will train their fighters accordingly. Sam Ng's CLF school in Chicago is another example of this.

I think there's not much left of the horse.
It's not just dead, it's pulp.

[MasterKiller]

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6851&stc=1&d=1328646112

[ShaolinDan]

hmm...is Master Killer a good example? :D

[Ray Pina]

He trains like a sport fighter who fights in mma competition.
Some of his techniques and strategies come from training with Shawn Liu and various Sanshou fighters from China. Those techniques are TCMA in origin.

Aside from Shawn Obasi, who's style looks pretty much like a Wing Chun form, you're not going to find too many fighters that fight like they're doing a form. Just because other fighters aren't moving like they're doing a form, doesn't mean they're not using things from TCMA. "Kickboxing" is what happens when you strap on gloves, removing specialized fists/claws, and also have to worry about more head contact. Fighting in MMA is going to have to involve some background in ground work, so catch, judo, or bjj will be needed.

Nobody's saying you don't re-tool stuff for ring competition. What we're saying is that you don't throw everything away, you just modify and specialize in order to be more successful in a particular venue. There are some sifus/coaches out there who have done the re-tooling process and will train their fighters accordingly. Sam Ng's CLF school in Chicago is another example of this.



I agree with all of this.

And there may be some guys under the UFC level, guys most people never heard of who retool their TCMA to be straight and rounded punching, straight and rounded kicks, take downs, throws, ground n pound submission.


What makes Kung Fu unique? The trapping? The sticking? The short power? One inch punch? Animal techniques?

None of these are being utilized in MMA by anyone. Especially any TCMAer looking to win.... that's why they don't train that way. They "retool" to kick boxing.

[Pork Chop]

hmm...is Master Killer a good example? :D

I've been ignoring him so he will speak up.
Though he probably deserves better - back in the day he offered to share his womenz.
Were I bawang, I would sing songs of his greatness.

[Ray Pina]

He's not my anything.
He's a coach, one who explained in great detail how his fight strategies that he passes on to his fighters are influenced and guided by TCMA..

His fight strategies?..... based off of what fighting experience?

He outsourced a BJJ expert and teaches kick boxing to his fighters. Which is great. And smart. And why his guys win

They're not doing this, which is traditional Kung Fu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Z8Gpq-RUY

[Pork Chop]

What makes Kung Fu unique? The trapping? The sticking? The short power? One inch punch? Animal techniques?


For me, it's the strategies (gate theory, center line theory, 6 harmonies for generating power), parrying (a lot of boxing coaches don't teach it anymore), northern style kicking, throws as counters to attacks, and the blending of ti, da, and shuai (punch, kick, throw) in combinations. I said before, most of my throws off of kick catches come from kung fu - muay thai has some of them, but tcma takes it to another level.

[MasterKiller]

I've been ignoring him so he will speak up.
Though he probably deserves better - back in the day he offered to share his womenz.
Were I bawang, I would sing songs of his greatness.

Me? I'm a nobody who runs a nobody school full of fighters no one has ever heard of. According to DJ, I haven't even had a modicum of success.

We just happen to own these...

[Pork Chop]

His fight strategies?..... based off of what fighting experience?


What fight experience did Cus D'amato have?
Cus invented the peek-a-boo boxing style and produced hall of fame champions & trainers.

To his credit Ross got up there and tried.
The guy he went up against in his first fight was a bigger name than either of us fought and he survived longer than I did in my first fight.

[Pork Chop]

Me? I'm a nobody who runs a nobody school full of fighters no one has ever heard of. According to DJ, I haven't even had a modicum of success.

We just happen to own these...

So you're saying that cma instills in you a desire to accessorize with flashy belts?
How is that related to fighting? :p

[MasterKiller]

So you're saying that cma instills in you a desire to accessorize with flashy belts?
How is that related to fighting? :p

When you wear one of those belts to an after-fight party, you have to fight the womenz off with a stick. That's how.

[Drake]

So you're saying that cma instills in you a desire to accessorize with flashy belts?
How is that related to fighting? :p

Because when you engage in round after round against a vicious opponent who wants to win every bit as much as you... "atta boy" just doesn't cut it as a reward for victory...

[David Jamieson]

Mk holds a grudge! Sits and stews in it!

right on man. seriously, you should shout at me "you take that back!!" or something.
lol

[Gru Bianca]

Didn't see the video.

Please list the name of the fighter. The state and venue he fought in.

Hahahahahahaha you are really funny, I've posted in well, more then 3 different thread and you haven't seen it? Hahahaha sorry, now I'm tired if you want you go and search for it yourself, YouTube Hop Far MMA and see if u can finally find it. By the way things are going I doubt you will