Chinese Qin Na Submission

[Lucas]

Sorry to drag this dead, rotting, lifeless corpse of a horse back into the light of day....BUT I thought some of you who may not have seen a few of these photos might like the interesting tid bit i found on the art of war site. Not sure if this has been posted here, but it is interesting. for the practitioners of shuai jiao here, are these images shown similar to the practice you have, or do you not practice these types of submissions in your shuai jiao ?? if not, here is the disconnect?

http://www.artofwarfc.cn/?q=node/276

http://www.artofwarfc.cn/sitepics/news/news200907074.jpg
http://www.artofwarfc.cn/sitepics/news/news200907071.jpg
http://blacktaoist.com/images/news200907073.jpg

[Brule]

Sorry, that's not Chin na. Cleary it's BJJ. You TCMA guys need to stop claiming everything as TCMA when it's not. ;)

[hskwarrior]

Sorry, that's not Chin na. Cleary it's BJJ. You TCMA guys need to stop claiming everything as TCMA when it's not.

if it was not used effectively in RAY PINA SANCTIONED fights its nothing more than pajama wearin lion dancing form performers. i thought you knew. :rolleyes:

[Lucas]

you guys are silly. :eek:

im hoping a few of the posters here that specialize in shuai jiao to comment.

ive always been interested in shuai jiao, unfortunately its not available in my area. these pictures support the claim of shuai jiao and judo being very similar practices. the throwing aside, in such that judo does work on submissions like these.

[Yao Sing]

"As a result, full contact Chinese martial arts suffered heavily as a result of the exodus of skilled instructors and practitioners."

So the guys that knew how to fight took their knowledge to the rest of the world, like maybe Brasil? The US?

[Lucas]

"As a result, full contact Chinese martial arts suffered heavily as a result of the exodus of skilled instructors and practitioners."

So the guys that knew how to fight took their knowledge to the rest of the world, like maybe Brasil? The US?

say it aint so!! :eek:

[dirtyrat]

you guys are silly. :eek:

im hoping a few of the posters here that specialize in shuai jiao to comment.

ive always been interested in shuai jiao, unfortunately its not available in my area. these pictures support the claim of shuai jiao and judo being very similar practices. the throwing aside, in such that judo does work on submissions like these.

there are al lot shuaijiao videos out there you could get. even on youtube.

if you separate the techniques according to upper body & lower body techniques, it should make learning easier.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Sorry to drag this dead, rotting, lifeless corpse of a horse back into the light of day....BUT I thought some of you who may not have seen a few of these photos might like the interesting tid bit i found on the art of war site. Not sure if this has been posted here, but it is interesting. for the practitioners of shuai jiao here, are these images shown similar to the practice you have, or do you not practice these types of submissions in your shuai jiao ?? if not, here is the disconnect?

A better question to ask would be:

For those of you who have used submission against other trained submission people, what is it about each of those submissions that make them impractical compared to the submissions used in BJJ, Sambo, and MMA and Judo?

[Lucas]

A better question to ask would be:

For those of you who have used submission against other trained submission people, what is it about each of those submissions that make them impractical compared to the submissions used in BJJ, Sambo, and MMA and Judo?

so of course this thread was started for the sake of discussion. from all angles. so do please, start that aspect of this discussion. i dont claim to have intimate knowledge of grappling and submissions, so you could start he ball rolling if you like, im sure others will chime in too. im a judo noob

[Lucas]

so for instance here:
http://mmajunkie.com/dyn/images/managers-trainers/Greg-Jackson-RNC.JPG

this RNC is definately sunk in deeper and instead of using the crook of hte elbow, the technique is pulled further down onto the forarm a bit. so the question is, is the technique loose just in that picture, or would that guy actually not be able to notice hes not sunk in tight enough? im inclined to think its just that picture. but i could be wrong as well.

[Yao Sing]

A better question to ask would be:

For those of you who have used submission against other trained submission people, what is it about each of those submissions that make them impractical compared to the submissions used in BJJ, Sambo, and MMA and Judo?

How was it determined that the submissions in the photos are impractical compared to BJJ, Sambo, MMA and Judo?

Maybe I don't understand your comment.

[Peaceful Orchid]

so of course this thread was started for the sake of discussion. from all angles. so do please, start that aspect of this discussion. i dont claim to have intimate knowledge of grappling and submissions, so you could start he ball rolling if you like, im sure others will chime in too. im a judo noob

Image 1- Very little control of the opponent's body makes it very easy to escape.

Image 2- Looks like the top guy is wrapping the opponent's head with his right arm which gives the opponent and easy opportunity to take his back.

Image 3- Knees are apart and legs aren't down tightly controlling the opponent, making it easy to escape and hard to leverage a break on the elbow joint.

Image 4- This is OK depending on what happens next. Better to control both arms of the opponent.

Image 5- Can't finish the lock at that angle and the opponent has lots of room to escape.

Image 6 & 7- Need to have control from the back with the legs. Without this the opponent can easily turn and make the choke into a simple head lock.

Image 8 - Looks good, although it depends on what is going on the far side, which you can't see.

Image 9- Hard to finish from that angle.

[Peaceful Orchid]

so for instance here:
http://mmajunkie.com/dyn/images/managers-trainers/Greg-Jackson-RNC.JPG

this RNC is definately sunk in deeper and instead of using the crook of hte elbow, the technique is pulled further down onto the forarm a bit. so the question is, is the technique loose just in that picture, or would that guy actually not be able to notice hes not sunk in tight enough? im inclined to think its just that picture. but i could be wrong as well.

The crook of the elbow is better. The most important thing is the control with the legs, though.

[Lucas]

so another aspect to consider in regards to these photos. is that this is a very small hand ful of photos. im sure this is a pretty small representation of that persons training and understanding of grappling. we dont even know the context as they are stand alone photographs.

[Yao Sing]

So far it sounds to me like learning from pictures (old or new) isn't the best way to learn these moves.:)

Although as soon as you try them out I'm sure adjustments aren't too hard to figure out.

[Lucas]

The crook of the elbow is better. The most important thing is the control with the legs, though.

mmkay cool.

im just curious if these photographs are how that person would actually apply them on a resistant individual, or perhaps these are just a simple display of possible submissive techniques. unfortunately we cannot know the answer since this was like 100 years ago.

[Peaceful Orchid]

so another aspect to consider in regards to these photos. is that this is a very small hand ful of photos. im sure this is a pretty small representation of that persons training and understanding of grappling. we dont even know the context as they are stand alone photographs.

You're right. We are going on the photos. That's all we have to go by. Based on simply the photos, there are a variety of problems with those submissions.

Speculating on anything else is just speculation.

[Peaceful Orchid]

mmkay cool.

im just curious if these photographs are how that person would actually apply them on a resistant individual, or perhaps these are just a simple display of possible submissive techniques. unfortunately we cannot know the answer since this was like 100 years ago.

As I explained, those are not the best ways to apply them on a resistant individual.

[Lucas]

So far it sounds to me like learning from pictures (old or new) isn't the best way to learn these moves.:)

no of course not. thats a given

however it is a link that can show through disscussion with modern shuai jiao pracittioners what i am trying to ask them; that being do modern shuai jiao people train submissions like these?

[ShaolinDan]

huh, I think those are some of the 'missing' pictures from an old discussion I once got involved in here....

It had been suggested that the ground techniques from this book(if it's the same one)were imports from Judo.

Well, I'm familiar with all of those submissions (except #4, which I don't think I understand :) ) from my Eagle Claw curriculum. It is true though that we rarely train the ones that involve having both feet off the ground, but they are still there, and we will work on them once in a while.

But maybe there are more missing pictures with even more evolved ground-fighting...


FWIW I've never believed KF was missing ground submissions. What it seems to me to be missing in groundwork is getting position on the ground so you can pull your submission off from the ground against someone who understands wrestling.

[Lucas]

my intention in starting this thread is to get away from all the poo poo tossing that is the norm in threads around here and have an actual discussion that centers around modern shuai jiao and the connection with qin na. as im not a shuai jiao person i figured the best place to talk would be here.

[Lucas]

huh, I think those are some of the 'missing' pictures from an old discussion I once got involved in here....

It had been suggested that the ground techniques from this book(if it's the same one)were imports from Judo.

Well, I'm familiar with all of those submissions (except #4, which I don't think I understand :) ) from my Eagle Claw curriculum. It is true though that we rarely train the ones that involve having both feet off the ground, but they are still there, and we will work on them once in a while.

But maybe there are more missing pictures with even more evolved ground-fighting...


FWIW I've never believed KF was missing ground submissions. What it seems to me to be missing in groundwork is getting position on the ground so you can pull your submission off from the ground against someone who understands wrestling.

so then that begs a question to be answered...why is the structure off in these ?

[Lucas]

what is that last submission called? im trying to find a fight i recently saw in ufc where a guy finished from there.

another thing is that obviously in those pictures this is a display the guy is compliant.

[Peaceful Orchid]

so then that begs a question to be answered...why is the structure off in these ?

More than likely because they weren't training them in a live manner, but were simply going through the motions with compliant partners.

This is one of the things that makes Judo different from Aikido and traditional Japanese JuiJitsu.

[ShaolinDan]

so then that begs a question to be answered...why is the structure off in these ?

I can't say for sure. Is this a sport or a combat shuai jiao book?

[Peaceful Orchid]

what is that last submission called? im trying to find a fight i recently saw in ufc where a guy finished from there.

another thing is that obviously in those pictures this is a display the guy is compliant.

Head & Arm or Arm Triangle.

More than likely you won't find a finish with the hips elevated like that.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Sorry, that's not Chin na. Cleary it's BJJ. You TCMA guys need to stop claiming everything as TCMA when it's not. ;)

I think most BJJ guys would be somewhat embarrassed to call that stuff theirs.

[Lucas]

thanks. and yes im fairly certain the guy that won was not balled under like that but extended and using his legs to help control

[ShaolinDan]

what is that last submission called?

Isn't it just a sleeper hold?

[Lucas]

I can't say for sure. Is this a sport or a combat shuai jiao book?

ya im not too sure, i just found these on the art of war mma site

[ShaolinDan]

oh answered already, sorry threads moving to fast for my slow mind. :)

[Lucas]

more along these lines

http://www.fighters.com/images/chadposts/1221743393232.jpg

[ShaolinDan]

ya im not too sure, i just found these on the art of war mma site

OK. Well, I'm not gonna look for the old thread I'm thinking of...it will bring back bad memories. But somewhere in the last year or so there was a thread with more information about this book.

[Peaceful Orchid]

more along these lines

Yes, those are the important details that are determined by live training.

[ShaolinDan]

more along these lines

http://www.fighters.com/images/chadposts/1221743393232.jpg

Yeah, well kung fu tries too hard to keep its feet on the ground to make good wrestlers. :)

[Peaceful Orchid]

Yeah, well kung fu tries too hard to keep its feet on the ground to make good wrestlers. :)

Last time I checked, wrestling was mostly about trying to keep your feet on the ground while trying to take your opponent off his feet.

[Lucas]

i think he means submission ground grappling

[ShaolinDan]

i think he means submission ground grappling

Yes. Sorry, can't leave any doors open in a troll mine like this. Thanks Lucas. Also I should specify the 'bottoms' of the feet. :)

[Lucas]

Also I should specify the 'bottoms' of the feet. :)

lol!!!! :eek:

[Peaceful Orchid]

Yes. Sorry, can't leave any doors open in a troll mine like this. Thanks Lucas. Also I should specify the 'bottoms' of the feet. :)

Of course that does beg the question. Why wouldn't systems that train so hard to keep the bottoms of the feet on the ground not also become very good at submissions like judo and sambo have?

[ShaolinDan]

I guess I don't feel that's the case. Eagle Claw has great submissions. Sanda has top-notch stand-up grappling. So does shaio jiao.
I only feel like its (positioning for)submission work from the ground that isn't great.

[Lucas]

I guess I don't feel that's the case. Eagle Claw has great submissions. Sanda has top-notch stand-up grappling. So does shaio jiao.
I only feel like its (positioning for)submission work from the ground that isn't great.

i dont really buy into the cultural explination often given...it kind of makes sense, but then at the same time you have actual evidnece here that the desire and intent is there to do submission work on the ground...so wtf is the disconnect

[Peaceful Orchid]

I guess I don't feel that's the case. Eagle Claw has great submissions. Sanda has top-notch stand-up grappling. So does shaio jiao.
I only feel like its (positioning for)submission work from the ground that isn't great.

Why would judo and sambo have such good ground submission work, since they are arguably some of the best in the world at maintaining the ability to stay on their feet?

And why do all systems that have verifiable evidence of their submissions working in skilled settings have the majority of their submissions on the ground?

[Peaceful Orchid]

i dont really buy into the cultural explination often given...it kind of makes sense, but then at the same time you have actual evidnece here that the desire and intent is there to do submission work on the ground...so wtf is the disconnect

The disconnect is between training for real and training with compliant partners.

[wenshu]

Of course that does beg the question. Why wouldn't systems that train so hard to keep the bottoms of the feet on the ground not also become very good at submissions like judo and sambo have?

I don't see how wrestling to throw someone on the ground automatically implies the development of submission wrestling.

For the sake of discussion, maybe it was felt that keeping it standing lends itself better to continuous action as opposed to watching someone like Big Country Roy face sitting someone for 18 minutes.

Also you guys keep using this phrase; I do not think it means what you think it means.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

[Lucas]

Also you guys keep using this phrase; I do not think it means what you think it means.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

what ever you friggin smarty pants :mad:

[Peaceful Orchid]

I don't see how wrestling to throw someone on the ground automatically implies the development of submission wrestling.

It doesn't... take Greco or Freestyle wrestling for example.

On the other hand it doesn't preclude it as judo and sambo demonstrate.


For the sake of discussion, maybe it was felt that keeping it standing lends itself better to continuous action as opposed to watching someone like Big Country Roy face sitting someone for 18 minutes.

Agreed. Historically, ground time has been limited to make matches more exciting for spectators.

[ShaolinDan]

I can't say anything I haven't before. Most of our submissions on the ground are done with us on our feet...Most of the sport fighting ends when you hit the ground...I don't really see the disconnect.

...is what I was going to say if wenshu hadn't beaten me to it. :(

[Peaceful Orchid]

Most of our submissions on the ground are done with us on our feet...(

I'll leave Lucas to come back and answer the impracticality of that after he's trained judo for 8 months or so.

[wenshu]

It doesn't... take Greco or Freestyle wrestling for example.

On the other hand it doesn't preclude it as judo and sambo demonstrate.


Agreed. Historically, ground games have been limited to make matches more exciting for spectators.

I think the focus on submissions is a relatively recent development.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLvqA22izys&feature=related

In high level Shuai Jiao if the competitors don't attempt any execution or are not constantly fighting for better hand position the ref issues a warning and will reset them.

If they feel that way about just holding the same grips for more than a few seconds how do you think it looks to them to watch two guys hug each other on the ground?


what ever you friggin smarty pants :mad:

That really hurts my feelings.

[ShaolinDan]

I'll leave Lucas to come back and answer the impracticality of that after he's trained judo for 8 months or so.

Oh, I understand...I don't want to get into this whole thing again, but anyway we do 'import' some ground-fighting in my school. :) Ultimately though, ground fighting for ground fighting is a very small part of our curriculum. Our ground-fighting is aimed at finishing a take-down, or getting back up from one...with a few reversals here and there...there is no prolonged ground game.

[Peaceful Orchid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLvqA22izys&feature=related

In high level Shuai Jiao if the competitors don't attempt any execution or are not constantly fighting for better hand position the ref issues a warning and will reset them.


Looks like Shuai Jiao doesn't have much in the way of submissions in the first place.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Oh, I understand...I don't want to get into this whole thing again, but anyway we do 'import' some ground-fighting in my school. :) Ultimately though, ground fighting for ground fighting is a very small part of our curriculum. Our ground-fighting is aimed at finishing a take-down, or getting back up from one...with a few reversals here and there...there is no prolonged ground game.

Hence the reason you can't develop much of a ground or submission game.

[wenshu]

Looks like Shuai Jiao doesn't have much in the way of submissions in the first place.

Yeah, that was kind of the point. . .

[ShaolinDan]

Looks like Shuai Jiao doesn't have much in the way of submissions in the first place.

I don't know very much about shuai jiao, just a little bit my teacher has shown me/us. (He's not a shuai jiao guy, but he's trained it some anyway) There's more than one shuai jiao. There is sport shuai jiao and combat shuai jiao. There are all kinds of hidden strikes and breaks...it's a really 'dirty' fighting styles.
One time he used me to demonstrate the sport versus combat version of a throw. It was just a variation on a hip throw(I think)...but the way the combat version was set up, my knee was locked out, and my foot stuck to the ground...if he'd finished the throw my leg definitely would have broken. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to replicate it... :) Anyway, there are many layers to shuai jiao...wish I knew more about them.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Yeah, that was kind of the point. . .

Which would make the answer to the original question of the thread be "They don't, and the disconnect is that they don't use them as part of their ruleset."

[ShaolinDan]

OK. PO. Now that I've seen your lovely posts while I was writing, I won't bother answering again...it's clear what you are.

[wenshu]

I don't know very much about shuai jiao, just a little bit my teacher has shown me/us. (He's not a shuai jiao guy, but he's trained it some anyway) There's more than one shuai jiao. There is sport shuai jiao and combat shuai jiao. There are all kinds of hidden strikes and breaks...it's a really 'dirty' fighting styles.
One time he used me to demonstrate the sport versus combat version of a throw. It was just a variation on a hip throw(I think)...but the way the combat version was set up, my knee was locked out, and my foot stuck to the ground...if he'd finished the throw my leg definitely would have broken. Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to replicate it... :) Anyway, there are many layers to shuai jiao...wish I knew more about them.

A lot of the grip breaks could be submissions but because you are standing up you can move to nullify the disadvantageous leverage which is what your opponent wants to set up the throw.

Whereas on the ground your mobility is more easily restricted hence why the majority of submissions only work on the ground.

[Peaceful Orchid]

OK. PO. Now that I've seen your lovely posts while I was writing, I won't bother answering again...it's clear what you are.

Simply making the point that if you can't practice your submissions realistically, you can't get very good at them.

[Peaceful Orchid]

A lot of the grip breaks could be submissions but because you are standing up you can move to nullify the disadvantageous leverage which is what your opponent wants to set up the throw.

Whereas on the ground your mobility is more easily restricted hence why the majority of submissions only work on the ground.

Yes, excellent point.

The other thing is that as soon as you commit to a standing submission, it makes it easier for your opponent to un-root you. Which is ironic when you hear people talking about the importance of maintaining their root yet having the mindset of applying standing submissions.

[wenshu]

Which would make the answer to the original question of the thread be "They don't, and the disconnect is that they don't use them as part of their ruleset."

Yeah, as far as I've seen and practiced modern competitive SJ doesn't.

It is possible to speculate that they existed in the past and were evident in the influence on Japanese arts. But that is speculation based on legend and apochrypha. Unless someone can point to something more substantial I have to basically say no.

Mongolian wrestling which influenced Shuai Jiao does have some form of submission wrestling. The extent of the influence of these techniques on Chinese wrestling is debatable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_wrestling
The Secret History of the Mongols (written in Mongolian in 1240 AD) in Chapter 4, Paragraph 140 records a wrestling match between Buri the Wrestler and Belgutei that took place in Eastern Mongolia on the Year of the Monkey (1200 AD):

One day Genghis Khan had Buri Bokh and Belgutei wrestle each other. Buri Bokh belonged to the Jurkhin tribe. Formerly Buri Bokh was able to hold on to Belgutei by one hand, drop him to the ground by one leg and keep him immobile there on the ground. Buri Bokh was a nationally famous wrestler. However on this occasion when Buri Bokh and Belgutei were made to wrestle with each other Buri Bokh fell on the ground despite being an undefeated champion. Belgutei managed with great effort to press Buri Bokh down at the shoulder and proceeded to sit on his belt area. He then glanced at Genghis Khan from the corner of his eye. Genghis Khan bit his lower lip. Belgutei understood the meaning of this, held Buri Bokh firmly, jerked him at the chest and buttocks and broke his back. Buri Bokh said with his back broken: “I never lost a match to Belgutei. I fell purposefully to please the Khan out of fear but now I have lost my life.” Having said this he died. Belgutei broke his back, dragged him and then left his body.

[ShaolinDan]

A lot of the grip breaks could be submissions but because you are standing up you can move to nullify the disadvantageous leverage which is what your opponent wants to set up the throw.

Whereas on the ground your mobility is more easily restricted hence why the majority of submissions only work on the ground.

Standing submissions work fine in real life, they're incredibly useful. In the ring, against someone presumably at your level and totally focused on you and you only, they are not so easy... :) But for someone training for life, not sport, they make perfect sense. Standing arm-bar is still the number one most popular knife defense as far as I know.

[wenshu]

Yes, excellent point.

The other thing is that as soon as you commit to a standing submission, it makes it easier for your opponent to un-root you. Which is ironic when you hear people talking about the importance of maintaining their root yet having the mindset of applying standing submissions.

Yes. A standing kimura is more liability than advantage.

When I first started Shuai jiao I wrestled with some BJJ/Judo players. They kept using the standing kimura and I was just like "And?"

Had I been more seasoned at that point I would have been like

"Oh, thank you. Please, have a seat."

[Peaceful Orchid]

Standing submissions work fine in real life, they're incredibly useful.

No they don't and no they aren't.


But for someone training for life, not sport, they make perfect sense.

No they don't. What makes sense for real life is understanding that they rarely work and making adjustments accordingly.


Standing arm-bar is still the number one most popular knife defense as far as I know.

Maybe by people who have never really had to defend against a real knife.

[Drake]

Sorry, but when people start comparing "knife defense" notes, they lose a LOT of credibility.

Knives are hands down one of the worst things you'll deal with, and virtually all encounters end with you getting cut.

[Drake]

No they don't and no they aren't.



No they don't. What makes sense for real life is understanding that they rarely work and making adjustments accordingly.



Maybe by people who have never really had to defend against a real knife.

You'd rather roll on the ground with a guy with a knife?

[Yao Sing]

Better to not fight back, maybe they'll get tired of cutting and stabbing before you kick the bucket. :p

[ShaolinDan]

Sorry, but when people start comparing "knife defense" notes, they lose a LOT of credibility.

Knives are hands down one of the worst things you'll deal with, and virtually all encounters end with you getting cut.

This is probably true, but from what I've seen (esp. including Dog Brothers), standing arm-bar still seems to be the most commonly taught technique. 'Course the real factors are positioning and timing...

[Drake]

This is probably true, but from what I've seen (esp. including Dog Brothers), standing arm-bar still seems to be the most commonly taught technique. 'Course the real factors are positioning and timing...

Right. Has less to do with the technique, and more about those two factors.

And honestly... if someone has a knife, unless he's presently trying to stab you, disengagement (even at the cost of pride) is your best approach.

[Yao Sing]

'Course the real factors are positioning and timing...

Isn't that the key to all fighting pretty much? How often have CMA masters made that same claim?

[Hebrew Hammer]

And honestly... if someone has a knife, unless he's presently trying to stab you, disengagement (even at the cost of pride) is your best approach.

Speak for yourself...I'd rather bleed out in a dark alley than look bad....now if he were using Jazz hands, that'd be a whole different animal.

[Lucas]

http://i881.photobucket.com/albums/ac17/paramaline/f1m34.gif

[Peaceful Orchid]

This is probably true, but from what I've seen (esp. including Dog Brothers), standing arm-bar still seems to be the most commonly taught technique. 'Course the real factors are positioning and timing...

What they teach and what they actually do seem to be two different things.

This clip seems to show that they aren't any better than anyone else at disarming knives (and they sure aren't getting in any standing arm bars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCopgQpC7ns

Thinking you can make standing submissions work other than on a fluke basis is somewhat lacking in realistic thinking. Thinking you can do them against a knife is entering the realm of total fantasy.

[Yao Sing]

Some people watch way too much TV. :rolleyes:

I liked the girl stabbing the chubby guy multiple times while he takes her to the ground. :p

[Lucas]

personally im shocked that an actual decent discussion has lasted this long

[ShaolinDan]

My dad fended off his mother in law without getting cut when she attacked him with a knife... Don't ask. :o
I've been using standing submissions successfully in 'real' fights since I was a little kid--my dad taught me.

It's all about the relative skill of you and your opponent.

[mooyingmantis]

No they don't and no they aren't.



No they don't. What makes sense for real life is understanding that they rarely work and making adjustments accordingly.



Maybe by people who have never really had to defend against a real knife.

Your statements only prove that YOU are unable to do this.

I HAVE done this this against a noncompliant, resisting opponent and I have seen it done by others in the same situation.

Though I do agree that often the defender will be cut in any type of situation where you defend bare-handed against a knife. However, CUT is not DEAD!

[Peaceful Orchid]

You'd rather roll on the ground with a guy with a knife?

Of course not. But then, sometimes you have no choice in the matter:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/802461/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBVXglHeSxM

[Peaceful Orchid]

Your statements only prove that YOU are unable to do this.

What is shows is that I have seen many people get their as_ss_es handed to them trying to put on standing submissions.


I HAVE done this this against a noncompliant, resisting opponent and I have seen it done by others in the same situation.

Occasionally it happens as a fluke, especially if your opponent is smaller and lighter than you.

Again, there is a reason why all submission systems that train in realistic manners have the majority of their submissions on the ground.

[Peaceful Orchid]

It's all about the relative skill of you and your opponent.

Personally, I'd rather be prepared and use things that work against people of high skill levels.

[bawang]

qin na means clinching.

[Drake]

If you've seen or encountered multiple knife attacks, you should consider moving...

Most only see one or two. If any.

Posturing irritates me...

[Peaceful Orchid]

Never mind. Got you mixed up with that Dan guy.

He's the one you should talk to about the posturing.

[wenshu]

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfbxt7Udqo1qe0eclo1_500.gif

[Yao Sing]

personally im shocked that an actual decent discussion has lasted this long

Ray hasn't posted yet. :)


My dad fended off his mother in law without getting cut when she attacked him with a knife... Don't ask. :o

When my wife and I were first going out I had to save her from her mother twice. Once trying to beat her with a hammer and once trying to stab her with a screw driver. She was a little bit crazy. Ok, make that a lot crazy.

[Drake]

Ray hasn't posted yet. :)


Or has he...?

*conspiracy music*

[Yao Sing]

Personally, I'd rather be prepared and use things that work against people of high skill levels.

You must have some pretty tough crackhead muggers in your area. I normally don't expect to be attacked by Rampage Jackson or similar. :D

[Peaceful Orchid]

You must have some pretty tough crackhead muggers in your area. I normally don't expect to be attacked by Rampage Jackson or similar. :D

Why train for the lowest common denominator?

[Yao Sing]

What's wrong with training for most likely?

[Peaceful Orchid]

What's wrong with training for most likely?

I'd say that's a pretty good thing to do. And most likely is that you won't be throwing on standing qui na.

[Drake]

I'd prefer to handle a fighter with a knife, because I know he'll have some sort of style or method. A thoughtful approach, ergo predictable.

Crackhead? Yeah... good luck figuring out his attack plan.

[Yao Sing]

So I should spend hours each day getting cauliflower ears and sprained joints gaining high level sport fighting skill on the chance I might have to fight off a crackhead mugger someday?

[Drake]

So I should spend hours each day getting cauliflower ears and sprained joints gaining high level sport fighting skill on the chance I might have to fight off a crackhead mugger someday?

You'll be great at disarming people who fight exactly like you do.

[Peaceful Orchid]

I'd prefer to handle a fighter with a knife, because I know he'll have some sort of style or method. A thoughtful approach, ergo predictable

Thoughtful? Have you ever seen a real knife attack?

The most thoughtful it's going to be is how he can have the blade and stick you with it before you even know he has it.

[Drake]

Thoughtful? Have you ever seen a real knife attack?

The most thoughtful it's going to be is how he can have the blade and stick you with it before you even know he has it.

Did you read the post? Methinks you didn't...

[Yao Sing]

BTW, I carry a Spyderco all the time, sometimes wear a neckknife and carry a 9mm.

[Drake]

A lot of folks I know are actually jumping on the conceal carry bandwagon...

Knife, meet gun...

[Peaceful Orchid]

Did you read the post? Methinks you didn't...

Yeah, I read it. What type of thoughtful attack plan do you think he's going to have? And what makes you think some crack or meth head isn't going to be using a weapon against you?

[Drake]

Yeah, I read it. What type of thoughtful attack plan do you think he's going to have? And what makes you think some crack or meth head isn't going to be using a weapon against you?

No, no you didn't...

[Yao Sing]

A lot of folks I know are actually jumping on the conceal carry bandwagon...

Knife, meet gun...

That and the Castle Doctrine law here in Florida is making criminal violence against the general public extremely difficult.

[Yao Sing]

Basic Chin Na I learned in Kenpo over 30 years ago. This guy had 3 months Aikido.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r90w-AXESIk&feature=related

That's what regular people can expect. There are quite a few examples out there of people with little to no skill defending themselves. Certainly don't need to be a UFC champ to be successful.

[Peaceful Orchid]

No, no you didn't...

Yep here's what you said. Clear as day.

"I'd prefer to handle a fighter with a knife, because I know he'll have some sort of style or method. A thoughtful approach, ergo predictable.

Crackhead? Yeah... good luck figuring out his attack plan. "



Looks like you think a fighter with a knife is easier to handle that a crackhead.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Basic Chin Na I learned in Kenpo over 30 years ago. This guy had 3 months Aikido.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r90w-AXESIk&feature=related

That's what regular people can expect. There are quite a few examples out there of people with little to no skill defending themselves. Certainly don't need to be a UFC champ to be successful.


You'll get no argument from me on that one. He focused on the weapon, grabbed it and took it away. That's exactly what he should have done. Notice there was no submission or attempted break, simply a manipulation of the weapon hand and taking the weapon away. Trying to finish that move into a submission/break with or without a weapon and he'd be dead or messed up.


I never said you need to have UFC level skills to be successful. What I said was attempting standing submission rarely works.

[Drake]

Yep here's what you said. Clear as day.

"I'd prefer to handle a fighter with a knife, because I know he'll have some sort of style or method. A thoughtful approach, ergo predictable.

Crackhead? Yeah... good luck figuring out his attack plan. "



Looks like you think a fighter with a knife is easier to handle that a crackhead.

Yeah... a trained fighter is predictable. VERY predictable.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Yeah... a trained fighter is predictable. VERY predictable.

So you'd rather fight a trained fighter with a blade rather than an unarmed crack head.

OK, good luck with that one.

[Drake]

So you'd rather fight a trained fighter with a blade rather than an unarmed crack head.

OK, good luck with that one.

Not what I said. How about you carefully read and analyze what I said, instead of putting words in my mouth and having me constantly correcting you?

[mooyingmantis]

What is shows is that I have seen many people get their as_ss_es handed to them trying to put on standing submissions.

Ok, let's get real. How many people have you ACTUALLY SEEN get cut, stabbed or die defending against a knife. Or are your assumptions based on classroom settings where peeps practiced "knife defenses"?


Again, there is a reason why all submission systems that train in realistic manners have the majority of their submissions on the ground.

The reason is that it is their specialty. Nothing more. I could say the same for striking based systems and standing based submission systems. And it would not be any more logical than your statement.

As an aside, anyone who fights a knife wielding attacker bare-handed willingly is an idiot. Environmental weapons are your friend. :)

[Yao Sing]

Ok, let's get real.

Forget real, it's more fun having guys in fantasyland tell others they're in fantasyland. :p

I think reality left the forum long ago.

[Yao Sing]

I bet this guy expended a lot less time and energy than rastlin' him to the ground.
Plus it's funny as hell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDjw0MlJPqQ&feature=related

I'm finding quite a few instances of crap TMA working when you need it and they aren't top level MMA either.

[mooyingmantis]

Forget real, it's more fun having guys in fantasyland tell others they're in fantasyland. :p

I think reality left the forum long ago.

LOL! Good point!

[YouKnowWho]

submissions in your shuai jiao ...

Most of the joint locking should start from standing and end on the ground. Only when your opponent is on the ground, your joint locking is then complete.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc4Ubxy54vE

Unless you use standing joint locking such as "chicken wing hold" to escort your opponent to the police department.

[Drake]

I've had ONE encounter, and he was disarmed through a freakish series of events that happened to work in my favor.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Ok, let's get real. How many people have you ACTUALLY SEEN get cut, stabbed or die defending against a knife. Or are your assumptions based on classroom settings where peeps practiced "knife defenses"?
Over the years, I've known quite a few people who got cut badly from knives. A couple died.




The reason is that it is their specialty. Nothing more. I could say the same for striking based systems and standing based submission systems. And it would not be any more logical than your statement.

Their specialty is submissions. That's why they've figured out that standing submissions don't work very well or very often.

[Peaceful Orchid]

I bet this guy expended a lot less time and energy than rastlin' him to the ground.
Plus it's funny as hell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDjw0MlJPqQ&feature=related

I'm finding quite a few instances of crap TMA working when you need it and they aren't top level MMA either.


Why are you attempting to hijack a thread about chi na and submissions into one about TMA kicks working or not working?

[Peaceful Orchid]

Most of the joint locking should start from standing and end on the ground. Only when your opponent is on the ground, your joint locking is then complete.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc4Ubxy54vE

Too bad it's almost impossible to take someone down like that.

[Yao Sing]

Not intentional, but the subject has veered in that direction a few times with all the TMA is a waste posturing.

[Yao Sing]

Too bad it's almost impossible to take someone down like that.

That guy have had some really stiff wrists or low tolerance to pain to drop that way. It's like movie fu where the guy stays on the floor unconscious after that kind of move.

BTW, that's not how I learned that one.

[YouKnowWho]

Too bad it's almost impossible to take someone down like that.

I assume you won't believe this can be used to take your opponent down to the ground either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6kXx_B5Hy0

[Peaceful Orchid]

I assume you won't believe this can be used to take your opponent down to the ground either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6kXx_B5Hy0

Maybe if your opponent is a 12 year old girl.

You can check out just about any competitive venue where takedowns are part of the ruleset. There's a reason you never see either of those types of takedowns even though it is common both for an opponent to grab the other's arm and for one opponent to get behind another.

[YouKnowWho]

Maybe if your opponent is a 12 year old girl.

You can check out just about any competitive venue where takedowns are part of the ruleset. There's a reason you never see either of those types of takedowns even though it is common both for an opponent to grab the other's arm and for one opponent to get behind another.

Who is talking about "competition"?

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/159/beggercarrydog.jpg

[Peaceful Orchid]

Who is talking about "competition"?

Like I said , you can make work against a 12 year old girl, but just because it is "not competition" doesn't mean you can make it work against anyone "on the street" who is halfway strong, partially in shape, or has a freshman level high school grappling background or 3 months of judo, sambo, or bjj.

And speaking of a little sambo, try that full nelson on someone with even a little bit of sambo and you'll get your knee broken.

[YouKnowWho]

And speaking of a little sambo, try that full nelson on someone with even a little bit of sambo and you'll get your knee broken.
What do you do to break someone's knee?

[dirtyrat]

Like I said , you can make work against a 12 year old girl, but just because it is "not competition" doesn't mean you can make it work against anyone "on the street" who is halfway strong, partially in shape, or has a freshman level high school grappling background or 3 months of judo, sambo, or bjj.

And speaking of a little sambo, try that full nelson on someone with even a little bit of sambo and you'll get your knee broken.

a bit generous aren't you?

[YouKnowWho]

you can make work against a 12 year old girl,

Do you know where did that tape come from? It was used as teaching material in Sionics, a Georgia-based Anti-terrorism school. I don't believe those students who train anti-terrorism are interesting in dealing with 12 years old girl.

[Yao Sing]

They might be but that's a different topic. :eek:

Actually this is how most of my discussions with guys like that go - seems no matter what I would do a high school kid with 3 days BJJ would tear me a new one according to the clueless.

How can you discuss anything seriously with peeps like that?

[YouKnowWho]

They might be but that's a different topic. :eek:

Actually this is how most of my discussions with guys like that go - seems no matter what I would do a high school kid with 3 days BJJ would tear me a new one according to the clueless.

How can you discuss anything seriously with peeps like that?

You can't!

It's waste of your time to discuss anything with people who think MMA is superior than TCMA.

[dirtyrat]

i've dabbled in judo & bjj. i can say with confidence that your average student is far from being street worthy in 3 months

[MightyB]

Maybe if your opponent is a 12 year old girl.

You can check out just about any competitive venue where takedowns are part of the ruleset. There's a reason you never see either of those types of takedowns even though it is common both for an opponent to grab the other's arm and for one opponent to get behind another.

You are stupid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge34hs-4PKk

A prime example of standing chin na working really well against one of your BJJ heroes.

[Peaceful Orchid]

You are stupid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge34hs-4PKk

A prime example of standing chin na working really well against one of your BJJ heroes.

Um... who's stupid?

That "standing" chi na ended up on the ground... exactly where I would predict it would.

Seems like the guy who thinks a submission on the ground is standing chi na would be the stupid one.

[Peaceful Orchid]

i've dabbled in judo & bjj. i can say with confidence that your average student is far from being street worthy in 3 months

Much more street worthy than someone trying to take down an opponent with that full nelson or the wrist lock.

[Peaceful Orchid]

You can't!

It's waste of your time to discuss anything with people who think MMA is superior than TCMA.

It has nothing to do with MMA being superior to TCMA and everything to do with unrealistic techniques and poor training methods.

Of course, iff this thread is an example of how the majority of TCMA people think, I can now see why Ray Pina rags on it so much.

[YouKnowWho]

That "standing" chi na ended up on the ground... exactly where I would predict it would.


Most of the joint locking should start from standing and end on the ground. Only when your opponent is on the ground, your joint locking is then complete.

Did we say anything different?


unrealistic techniques ...

lol. Wrist lock and full nelson (neck joint lock) are unrealistic techniques. How many joints do we have on out body?

- finger joint,
- wrist joint,
- elbow joint,
- shoulder joint,
- neck joint,
- waist joint,
- knee joint,
- ankle joint,
- toe joint,

Since most people wear shoes, it may be hard to do any toe joint locking. All the other joint locking are possible if "opportunity" presents.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Did we say anything different?

Certain techniques can be used for takedowns in a realistic manner (i.e. arm drags, alligator rolls, head shucks, head & arm throws, kimuras, suplexes, etc). These are all techniques you will see in encounters with resisting opponents.

The ones you showed will mostly be done against non-resisting opponents or on someone with whom you have a highly superior advantage such as a 12 year old girl.

[dirtyrat]

Much more street worthy than someone trying to take down an opponent with that full nelson or the wrist lock.

you're assuming this is that said someone is using the demonstrated full-nelson or wrist-lock as the primary takedown method. it can be a follow-up technique used to flow with an opponent's resistance.... also what you did not see is the all-important set-up.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Wrist lock and full nelson (neck joint lock) are unrealistic techniques. How many joints do we have on out body?

- finger joint,
- wrist joint,
- elbow joint,
- shoulder joint,
- neck joint,
- waist joint,
- knee joint,
- ankle joint,
- toe joint,

Yep and all of those can be trained in realistic manners and unrealistic manners.

[Peaceful Orchid]

you're assuming this is that said someone is using the demonstrated full-nelson or wrist-lock as the primary takedown method. it can be a follow-up technique used to flow with an opponent's resistance.... also what you did not see is the all-important set-up.

Again, there is a reason you will almost never see these techs done against resisting opponents against whom one doesn't have a huge size/strength advantage.

[Peaceful Orchid]

i've dabbled in judo & bjj. i can say with confidence that your average student is far from being street worthy in 3 months

Then it should be easy for you to enter a novice level judo or bjj tourney and demonstrate you using wrist locks and/or full nelsons to take people down, right?

[dirtyrat]

Again, there is a reason you will almost never see these techs done against resisting opponents against whom one doesn't have a huge size/strength advantage.

good comeback. sound like a broken record. ;)

[dirtyrat]

Then it should be easy for you to enter a novice level judo or bjj tourney and demonstrate you using wrist locks and/or full nelsons to take people down, right?

yeah, i'm sure i can pull it off... but i'm also sure that my methods will get me disqualified.

[Peaceful Orchid]

good comeback. sound like a broken record. ;)

So, when will you be posting your demonstration of your takedown ability with these techniques?

[YouKnowWho]

Yep and all of those can be trained in realistic manners and unrealistic manners.

How do you know that TCMA guys do not train those locks in realistic manners? TCMA guys "train" and "test" on the mat too.

[Peaceful Orchid]

yeah, i'm sure i can pull it off... but i'm also sure that my methods will get me disqualified.

Yeah, so? You're not out to win. You are there to demonstrate these techniques.

If you are worried about being disqualified go to an open mat wrestling, Sambo, sub grappling, or judo session and do the techniques there.

[dirtyrat]

So, when will you be posting your demonstration of your takedown ability with these techniques?

i'm not in the habit of posting my fav strategies/tactics :p.

[Peaceful Orchid]

How do you know that TCMA guys do not train those locks in realistic manners?

They can't train those specific locks in a realistic manner because those specific techniques are mostly ineffective.

[dirtyrat]

Yeah, so? You're not out to win. You are there to demonstrate these techniques.

If you are worried about being disqualified go to an open mat wrestling, Sambo, sub grappling, or judo session and do the techniques there.

i do still get together with my former classmates from judo...

[Peaceful Orchid]

i'm not in the habit of posting my fav strategies/tactics :p.

Yeah, of course not. Got to keep them secret. People might steal them.

Ray is making more and more sense.

[Peaceful Orchid]

i do still get together with my former classmates from judo...

But of course you would never think of providing evidence. Somebody might steal your deadly techniques, right?

[dirtyrat]

Yeah, of course not. Got to keep them secret. People might steal them.

Ray is making more and more sense.

there's no secret. i just don't like telling them to rude guys like you...

[YouKnowWho]

They can't train those specific locks in a realistic manner because those specific techniques are mostly ineffective.
May I ask,

- How old are you?
- What kind of join locks do you know?

[Peaceful Orchid]

May I ask, "How old are you?" and "What kind of wrist locks and neck locks do you know?"

I'm just an old man who dabbled in a variety of things in his youth and now plays with Tai Chi and yoga mainly for health.

As far as what wrist locks and neck locks I know, I know the difference between what works and what doesn't work.

[YouKnowWho]

I'm just an old man who dabbled in a variety of things in his youth and now plays with Tai Chi and yoga mainly for health.

As far as what wrist locks and neck locks I know, I know the difference between what works and what doesn't work.
What make you to take the mission of "exposing fraud martial arts teachers"?

[Peaceful Orchid]

What make you to take the mission of "exposing fraud martial arts teachers"?

Where did you get the idea I'm trying to expose frauds? This thread was about realistic vs. unrealistic submissions and that's what I'm discussing. There are probably thousands of fraudulent martial arts teachers teaching unrealistic techniques. I don't care if they are exposed or not. People throw good money away on rip-off products and services all the time. It's not my mission to protect them.

[YouKnowWho]

Where did you get the idea I'm trying to expose frauds? This thread was about realistic vs. unrealistic submissions and that's what I'm discussing. There are probably thousands of fraudulent martial arts teachers teaching unrealistic techniques. I don't care if they are exposed or not.
It's in your "About Me".

About Peaceful Orchid

Interests

Flowers, gardening, peace gatherings, getting along, poetry, cooking, bug imitations, exposing fraud martial arts teachers.

Occupation

Botanist

[dirtyrat]

It's in your "About Me".

About Peaceful Orchid

Interests

Flowers, gardening, peace gatherings, getting along, poetry, cooking, bug imitations, exposing fraud martial arts teachers.

Occupation

Botanist

haha!!! nice!! :D

[Peaceful Orchid]

It's in your "About Me".

About Peaceful Orchid

Interests

Flowers, gardening, peace gatherings, getting along, poetry, cooking, bug imitations, exposing fraud martial arts teachers.

Occupation

Botanist

That is a joke profile. I stole that from someone on another site because I thought it was funny and I'm not that creative. I had forgotten the part about the fraud teachers. I really couldn't care less about them.

[Frost]

christ how many times can these threads come around....11 pages :eek:

those subs at the start weren't great, as pointed out on this thread already, and as pointed out previously were more than likely taken from judo (so what nothing rong with that) as for the whole standing locks, wrist locks etc thing its been done to death out of thousands of grappling and MMA videos you can find a handful of standing subs being used (most finish on the ground like the kimura) and the rest are freakish in nature, if that doesn't tell you something about their usefulness then lord help you :eek:

[Dragonzbane76]

Didnt watch vids but from some of the coversations im sure i didnt miss anything. Anything can work but for realism i would think simple and high percentage would be the answer.

[MightyB]

Um... who's stupid?

That "standing" chi na ended up on the ground... exactly where I would predict it would.

Seems like the guy who thinks a submission on the ground is standing chi na would be the stupid one.

No - you didn't. YouKnowWho pointed out that standing chin na ends in ground submissions and then you went on a pointless, clueless, noob rant about how you can't take down someone with an arm lock unless they're a 12 year old girl. So I posted a vid of one of the top MMA fighters in the world being taken down by an arm lock. So, not only are you stupid, but in a way - you equated Renzo Gracie with a 12 year old girl, so that makes you really stupid.

[MightyB]

Attn. Peaceful Orchid:

Dear:

[X] Clueless Newbie
[ ] Loser
[ ] Previously Banned Member
[ ] Bruce Lee Wannabee
[ ] Troll
[ ] Spammer
[X] 13 year old l337 d00d
[ ] Flamer
[ ] Whiner
[X] Book Taught Loonie

You Are Being Flamed Because:

[X] You posted a Style Vs Thread
[ ] You posted a personal attack against a mod
[ ] You should have used the Search Feature
[ ] You posted the Real Ultimate Power site again
[ ] You posted a thread in Ninjitsu asking about smoke bombs/night training
[ ] You posted a MMA Spoiler in Traditional Healing
[ ] You posted a thread stating you can run up walls
[ ] You posted a ( WarCraft / WoW ) vs Diablo 2 thread
[ ] You posted an OMG The Sky is Falling thread
[X] You resurrected a long dead, stupid thread
[ ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message
[ ] You flamed someone and got burnt
[ ] You posted a thread on Dux Ninjitsu
[ ] You haven't read the stickies
[ ] You asked why you can't get into the arcade on your first post
[ ] You typed in text/leet speak
[X] You posted false information then refused to back it up.
[ ] You posted a video/site we've all seen a thousand times before
[X] You believe that people from video games are great MA experts

In Punishment, You Must:

[ ] Take down all your Bruce Lee posters
[ ] Stop posting and go to class 3 times a week
[ ] Actually post something relevant
[ ] Read the **** FAQ
[ ] Go to your room with no supper
[ ] Apologize to everybody on this forum (except Gene, who loves it!)
[ ] Stand in the corner and do kata till you die of boredom
[ ] Ride over your collection of MA video-games on a bike
[X] All of the above


In Closing, I'd Like to Say:

[ ] Learn to type using ALL the correct letters
[ ] Welcome to last week
[X] Press Alt and F4
[ ] Can I have your stuff?
[ ] Don't let the door hit you in the ass.
[ ] All your base are belong to us. Go every Zig.
[ ] Read the **** Stickies! They are there for a reason!
[ ] All of the above
__________________

[Drake]

It's crazy. Superman and Clark Kent have never met, despite both of them being close friends with Lois Lane. Whenever Superman is around, Clark never is. And they look and act so similarly...

[Brule]

Drake,

Were any of them friends with Peter Parker?

[Peaceful Orchid]

No - you didn't. YouKnowWho pointed out that standing chin na ends in ground submissions and then you went on a pointless, clueless, noob rant about how you can't take down someone with an arm lock unless they're a 12 year old girl. So I posted a vid of one of the top MMA fighters in the world being taken down by an arm lock. So, not only are you stupid, but in a way - you equated Renzo Gracie with a 12 year old girl, so that makes you really stupid.

What I pointed out was that particular wrist lock would almost never result in bringing the opponent to the ground. I said nothing about being able to take someone down with a kimura. Kimuras to the ground are standard defenses from single/double legs and when the opponent has one's back. Sakuraba used them very effectively throughout his career.


Dear MightyB

You are being informed warned of the following infractions:


[Penal Code #10965] Not being able to read.



[Section A] Making up falsehoods based on the inability to read.

[SPJ]

Sorry to drag this dead, rotting, lifeless corpse of a horse back into the light of day....BUT I thought some of you who may not have seen a few of these photos might like the interesting tid bit i found on the art of war site. Not sure if this has been posted here, but it is interesting. for the practitioners of shuai jiao here, are these images shown similar to the practice you have, or do you not practice these types of submissions in your shuai jiao ?? if not, here is the disconnect?

http://www.artofwarfc.cn/?q=node/276

http://www.artofwarfc.cn/sitepics/news/news200907074.jpg
http://www.artofwarfc.cn/sitepics/news/news200907071.jpg
http://blacktaoist.com/images/news200907073.jpg

does not matter what they are called

interested in counters.

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Like all striking arts share many similarities, so do grappling arts.
From the very first time a caveman slapped a "bong-bang" on an other cavemen to this very second where someone, somewhere, is slapping a "mata leao" on someone else.
The only difference has been on the variations of the core submissions.
It doesn't matter who borrowed from whom because they ALL borrowed from someone.
As for whether systems A has these techniques the obvious answer is that would depend on the teacher and what the student is interested in learning.
This should have ended with Frost post:

Frost christ how many times can these threads come around....11 pages

those subs at the start weren't great, as pointed out on this thread already, and as pointed out previously were more than likely taken from judo (so what nothing rong with that) as for the whole standing locks, wrist locks etc thing its been done to death out of thousands of grappling and MMA videos you can find a handful of standing subs being used (most finish on the ground like the kimura) and the rest are freakish in nature, if that doesn't tell you something about their usefulness then lord help you

[David Jamieson]

Wait...is someone denying the infallibility of wrist control?

In case anyone needs reminding of how important it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QInKKHlB51g

[wenshu]

It's crazy. Superman and Clark Kent have never met, despite both of them being close friends with Lois Lane. Whenever Superman is around, Clark never is. And they look and act so similarly...


Drake,

Were any of them friends with Peter Parker?

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/7/72188/1635841-1294698_green_lantern_batman1_super_super.jpg

[Peaceful Orchid]

does not matter what they are called

interested in counters.

:)

1- Person on bottom uses left hand to control opponent's right knee while flattening his back onto the ground and take the pressure off the elbow.

2- Person on bottom uses left arm to underhook opponent's right arm and comes underneath arm to take opponent's back.

3- Person on bottom uses left arm to control opponent's left foot and push it over top of head removing leverage from elbow.

4- Person on top needs to pass opponent's guard or use good ground and pound.

5- Person on bottom uses left arm to come underneath opponent's right arm and frame on opponent's chin to keep him from moving downwards to be able to finish or person on bottom can turn to his right, coming to an all fours position while trapping the opponent's arm and sweeping him over to the bottom position.

6- Person on bottom swims his arms under opponent's legs and pushes them up, removing pressure on the neck.

7- Person in front turns to his right while using his right arm against opponent's hips to keep from following behind turning the choke into a side headlock.

8- Person in guillotine brings right hand over opponent's back and pulls opponent's wrist downwards with left hand, relieving pressure on the neck.

9- Person on bottom brings right arm up and grips hand, using double grip to push elbow into opponent's trapezius while starting to turn to his right and come to all fours position.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lets not forget the counters to the counters and the counters to the counters of those counters.
:D

[David Jamieson]

Lets not forget the counters to the counters and the counters to the counters of those counters.
:D

I personally prefer a polished stone counter with 2 sinks. :p

[Peaceful Orchid]

Lets not forget the counters to the counters and the counters to the counters of those counters.
:D

First counter to counter: put submission on effectively in the first place.

[wenshu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cW2nMf1gk

[Lucas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cW2nMf1gk

fuk thats disgusting...

[MightyB]

http://www.artofwarfc.cn/sitepics/news/news200907074.jpg
http://www.artofwarfc.cn/sitepics/news/news200907071.jpg
http://blacktaoist.com/images/news200907073.jpg

Too much space. :p

[Peaceful Orchid]

Too much space. :p

Really, which ones in particular?

[MightyB]

Really, which ones in particular?

all - look at his butt on the head and arm, his hips on the guillotine, his sleeper/RNC is good if you don't know DHG, his head and body on his scarf... :eek: He's not pinching his knees, etc. etc.

[Yao Sing]

From an admitted non-expert on grappling, in the triangle wouldn't the arm position (guy getting choked - on side of head opposed to across neck) be more critical than the butt in the air?

[Drake]

Yeah.. people think choke means to cut off oxygen. You actually cut off the blood flow to the brain on the sides of neck. Instant results.

[Yao Sing]

I actually knew that, I meant getting the arm across the front of the neck (like the BJJ I've seen) so that pressure could be better applied to sides of neck. I thought maybe the arm on the side might have prevented pressure on that side. Kinda like the "answer phone" principle.

[Gru Bianca]

Yeah.. people think choke means to cut off oxygen. You actually cut off the blood flow to the brain on the sides of neck. Instant results.

Which in a way is the same thing as oxigen is brought to the brain thru blood, you cut the circulation of it and no blood/oxigen supply to the brain and voila' .... shut down

[Drake]

Which in a way is the same thing as oxigen is brought to the brain thru blood, you cut the circulation of it and no blood/oxigen supply to the brain and voila' .... shut down

Nappy time for Bobo... :D

[MightyB]

From an admitted non-expert on grappling, in the triangle wouldn't the arm position (guy getting choked - on side of head opposed to across neck) be more critical than the butt in the air?

he's got the head and arm ok and if you're looking at a Judo manual without instruction, you'd read that you do want as much leverage going into the choke as you can get by raising your hips - but here's the clincher - you always Always go perpendicular to the opponent as possible to prevent being rolled. It's a stability thing. Think about a table. A table with two legs is easy to tip, he's giving up a portion of his stability by initiating the choke. Sort of like in CMA - if you encounter chin na, you strike because he's engaged his hands into the lock. Well, in a head and arm, you've engaged your base into the lock - you have to keep your hips perpendicular so you can keep your center of mass far away from your opponent. In Judo, when you apply that lock / choke - you would put one knee into your opponent, the other (the near his head leg) is posted straight out with live toes. You try to circle with live toes to his head side. and again to reiterate, your knee on his leg side is in his ribs if you can manage.

You should also triangle your arms and imagine that you're popping his head off like you'd pop the head off of a dandelion. But this technique is actually classified as hold down or immobilization technique where you achieve ippon by holding your opponent, it's actually hard to choke out a person from this position if they have the cajones not to pu$$ out.

[Chadderz]

I actually knew that, I meant getting the arm across the front of the neck (like the BJJ I've seen) so that pressure could be better applied to sides of neck. I thought maybe the arm on the side might have prevented pressure on that side. Kinda like the "answer phone" principle.

Like this?

http://bjj4life.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/triangle.jpg

[Yao Sing]

I meant arm triangle. Went back to the pic on page 3 of this thread and I guess it's the folded arm that threw me off making it look different.


he's got the head and arm ok and if you're looking at a Judo manual without instruction,

Funny you say that but in the absence of any other opportunity I taught myself Judo from a book when I was about 10 years old and practiced the moves on my little sister.

The really funny thing is when one of the older guys on the school bus saw me with the book he teased the crap out of me telling everyone (sarcastically) not to mess with me because I knew Judo. Once that spread around non of the bully's picked on me for almost 2 years.:p

[Syn7]

I personally prefer a polished stone counter with 2 sinks. :p

2 actual sinks or the double? I prefer the double with the middle a bit lower so water doesnt run everywhere when you cross over. Especially handy when preparing veggies. And you gotta love the suspended strainers. Makes the job much cleaner and more efficient.

[Yao Sing]

[In my best Chico Marx voice]
Strainers? My mama told me never to talk to strainers. ;)

[Syn7]

Yeah.. people think choke means to cut off oxygen. You actually cut off the blood flow to the brain on the sides of neck. Instant results.

There are arterial chokes and then there are wind/air chokes. Both are useful and both work well. Most of the popular chokes we see in MMA are arterial chokes. I've heard both go by a few different names. But technically the air ones are chokes whereas the blood ones are strangleholds. But over the years it all just started being called chokes.

[Yao Sing]

I remember Stranglehold. Ted Nugent right? :D

[Syn7]

lol. Paul McCartney too. But is was a really bad song.



I guess the simplest way of putting it is that a lack of blood is strangulation whereas a lack of wind is choking.

[Drake]

There are arterial chokes and then there are wind/air chokes. Both are useful and both work well. Most of the popular chokes we see in MMA are arterial chokes. I've heard both go by a few different names. But technically the air ones are chokes whereas the blood ones are strangleholds. But over the years it all just started being called chokes.

Or...useful and useless chokes, to put it succinctly.

[Syn7]

Or...useful and useless chokes, to put it succinctly.

Wow. Are you backpeddling here or do you really feel wind chokes are useless?

[Dragonzbane76]

Who resurrected this dead thing anyhow?

[Drake]

Wow. Are you backpeddling here or do you really feel wind chokes are useless?

I've always felt that way. Could you point out where I'm backpedaling?

[Peaceful Orchid]

I've always felt that way. Could you point out where I'm backpedaling?

Wind chokes are useless? Several police departments have banned their use among their officers because they were resulting in deaths.

[Drake]

Wind chokes are useless? Several police departments have banned their use among their officers because they were resulting in deaths.

Yes. Useless. And yes, this has been tested. And yes, against MANY resisting (and hitting back) opponents. And YES, I have been doing this for more than a day.

A lot of utterly ineffective techniques are banned because some way or another, someone got killed, be it a drunk choking on his own vomit, etc. Police aren't trying to kill a person, and it's easy to do just that when a suspect isn't in their right mind. You just made a causation error.

But if you expect a video, I'm afraid I am just going to tell you to go play hide and go **** yourself.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Yes. Useless. And yes, this has been tested. And yes, against MANY resisting (and hitting back) opponents. And YES, I have been doing this for more than a day.

A lot of utterly ineffective techniques are banned because some way or another, someone got killed, be it a drunk choking on his own vomit, etc. Police aren't trying to kill a person, and it's easy to do just that when a suspect isn't in their right mind. You just made a causation error.

But if you expect a video, I'm afraid I am just going to tell you to go play hide and go **** yourself.

Hmmm... all I can say is that you need to grapple with some higher level people if you've never felt a good choke that cuts off your ability to breath.

[David Jamieson]

The problem with stopping the airflow kind of chokes is that there is a really good chance of crushing the windpipe which could be fatal.

The thing with stopping blood to the brain, is that it causes unconsciousness. So, it's safer. Definitely if one is learning these things it is better to go for blood chokes.

[Drake]

Hmmm... all I can say is that you need to grapple with some higher level people if you've never felt a good choke that cuts off your ability to breath.

The guy was a very high level. MMA fighter, level 4 Army combatives. And it DOES cut off your ability to breathe. He taught us that you can go without breathing long enough to break the choke, just like you can get through painful "submissions" which really just hurt more than anything.

We went through countless drills with this, too, in all sorts of situations. It's just a matter of remaining calm.

I'm calling shenanigans... and arrogance. Funny how when someone disagrees with you, they just aren't training at a "high enough level". Are you REALLY that full of yourself?

[Drake]

The problem with stopping the airflow kind of chokes is that there is a really good chance of crushing the windpipe which could be fatal.

The thing with stopping blood to the brain, is that it causes unconsciousness. So, it's safer. Definitely if one is learning these things it is better to go for blood chokes.

They'd really have to catch you off guard (or drunk, hence the police issue) for that. Your neck isn't made of glass. I've had a LOT of people go for the air choke. Never saw a crushed windpipe, either as a participant or observer.

[David Jamieson]

They'd really have to catch you off guard (or drunk, hence the police issue) for that. Your neck isn't made of glass. I've had a LOT of people go for the air choke. Never saw a crushed windpipe, either as a participant or observer.

blade of a forearm across the throat would crush the windpipe.

harder to slip now that people are finally dropping their chins at all times, shrugging as much as they can and generally learning to avoid getting wrapped as best as possible.

so yeah, in sports? It's not likely, but lets say a cop puts a nightstick across a throat and squeezes. It ain't glass you're right, but it is like a toilet paper roll with that much force and it will collapse.

Pete's sake an elbow strike will bend your rib and give you a whince. :p

[Drake]

blade of a forearm across the throat would crush the windpipe.

harder to slip now that people are finally dropping their chins at all times, shrugging as much as they can and generally learning to avoid getting wrapped as best as possible.

so yeah, in sports? It's not likely, but lets say a cop puts a nightstick across a throat and squeezes. It ain't glass you're right, but it is like a toilet paper roll with that much force and it will collapse.

Pete's sake an elbow strike will bend your rib and give you a whince. :p

I think a nightstick in general can be pretty damaging across the board.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I believe the reason that "air chokes" were outlawed by police was because they were being done with the nightstick.
I recall some deaths in the LA area or something like that.

[Drake]

I believe the reason that "air chokes" were outlawed by police was because they were being done with the nightstick.
I recall some deaths in the LA area or something like that.

Whether it's being choked by them, smacked upside the head by them, or across the back of the knees... nightsticks suck. Can we agree on this, at least?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Whether it's being choked by them, smacked upside the head by them, or across the back of the knees... nightsticks suck. Can we agree on this, at least?

Hey, some people pay good money for that kinky **** :D

[Drake]

Hey, some people pay good money for that kinky **** :D

It wasn't THAT expensive! :eek:

[Peaceful Orchid]

The guy was a very high level. MMA fighter, level 4 Army combatives. And it DOES cut off your ability to breathe. He taught us that you can go without breathing long enough to break the choke, just like you can get through painful "submissions" which really just hurt more than anything.

Couldn't have been that high of a level. An air choke that is locked in won't be broken, so there is no "long enough." Generally, these are known as slow chokes and are pretty widely known to be quite effective.

[Drake]

Couldn't have been that high of a level. An air choke that is locked in won't be broken, so there is no "long enough." Generally, these are known as slow chokes and are pretty widely known to be quite effective.

Sorry, you are wrong. Utterly and completely wrong. Again.

[Frost]

hang on isnt the guilotine a wind choke and not a blood choke, and the same thing with the dan severn version of the rear naked choke?

if so has anyone bothered to tell renzo and his crew that developing the 10 finger guilotine was a waste of time, not to mention calling up marcelo garcia and telling him the marcellotine simply wont work and not to bother with it? :confused::eek:

[Dragonzbane76]

Those chokes are a mixture of both air and blood, which they should be.


Gee.... frost what would any of those guys know about chokes not like they have any experience with them. :D

[Frost]

Those chokes are a mixture of both air and blood, which they should be.


Gee.... frost what would any of those guys know about chokes not like they have any experience with them. :D

I dont know maybe they simply havent come up against good enough opponents to test their chokes :confused:

I still remember joe rogan commentating on one of renzos guysfight where he was using an arm in guillotine and saying it will never work..Then watching the guy put his opponent to sleep

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chokes cut off the oxygen supply to the brain by cutting off the "windpipe", a classic example is the RNC with the forearm across the throat.
Strangles ( and yes there is some debate about using the terms but that is irrelevant for this discussion) cutt of the oxygen supply by cutting off the supply of blood to the brain ( the common RNC AKA "sleeper hold" or "mata leao" in BJJ is an example).
Fact is the many times a chokes does BOTH or can do both depending on the position.
Strangles ( to keep the distinction) require that BOTH sides of the neck be compressed to get the QUICKEST result BUT even only one side can do the job at times ( it will take longer to say the least).
Fact is that done correctly ALL types work but strangles are safest ( less chance of trauma to the throat).
Now, that said there is some debate as to whether a person on certain type sof drugs, like PCP, is effected by strangles.
I recall reading that only a choke would work, but then I recall reading that is not the case so...
The only time I went up against a guy on PCP I ended up knocking him down a flight of stairs and someone else picked him up and thrown him out so...

Anyways.

[Peaceful Orchid]

if so has anyone bothered to tell renzo and his crew that developing the 10 finger guilotine was a waste of time, not to mention calling up marcelo garcia and telling him the marcellotine simply wont work and not to bother with it? :confused::eek:

How dare you! Of course the 10 finger was a waste of time, because everyone knows that you simply can escape it because you have so much time until your oxygen runs out. :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

Couldn't have been that high of a level. An air choke that is locked in won't be broken, so there is no "long enough." Generally, these are known as slow chokes and are pretty widely known to be quite effective.

Whatever. A 10 finger guiolltone can be easily defended by tripoding up, putting your head on the mat, and then wrapping your arm around the opponents neck and pushing in with your shoulder....EVEN if it's initially tight.

Of course the guy will try to flatten you out to prevent the tripod defense, but there's not much he can do because both arms are engaged in the choke.

[MasterKiller]

I'm calling shenanigans... and arrogance. Funny how when someone disagrees with you, they just aren't training at a "high enough level". Are you REALLY that full of yourself? Peaceful Orchid = Dale Franks, BJJ black belt.

[Pork Chop]

Peaceful Orchid = Dale Franks, BJJ black belt.

so he is knifefighter?
welcome back dude. :)

[Peaceful Orchid]

Whatever. A 10 finger guiolltone can be easily defended by tripoding up, putting your head on the mat, and then wrapping your arm around the opponents neck and pushing in with your shoulder....EVEN if it's initially tight.

Of course the guy will try to flatten you out to prevent the tripod defense, but there's not much he can do because both arms are engaged in the choke.

LOL... that's why little Nogera chocked out many of the worlds top grapplers with it over and over again when he was competing.

Apparently, you don't realize that Nogera developed this choke specifically as a counter to the BJJ defense against the normal guillotine.

[wenshu]

Show us on the doll where Wing Chun touched you.

http://www.hofwat.com/touched.jpg

It's ok, you're safe now. Wing Chun can't hurt you anymore.

[MasterKiller]

LOL... that's why little Nogera chocked out many of the worlds top grapplers with it over and over again when he was competing.

Apparently, you don't realize that Nogera developed this choke specifically as a counter to the BJJ defense against the normal guillotine.

Gee, one of the best in the world can do things most others can't? That's novel. In other breaking news, water is wet.

If it was indefensible, that's all people would use.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Gee, one of the best in the world can do things most others can't? That's novel. In other breaking news, water is wet.

If it was indefensible, that's all people would use.

Not indefensible, but definitely not this:

Whatever. A 10 finger guiolltone can be easily defended by tripoding up, putting your head on the mat, and then wrapping your arm around the opponents neck and pushing in with your shoulder....EVEN if it's initially tight.


Oh, and BTW, it IS almost all he used to finish people with, both in grappling championships and MMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What's it's record by OTHER fighters?

[Peaceful Orchid]

What's it's record by OTHER fighters?

I don't know, although I do know he made it a point not to show the details of how he was doing it.

That being said, the point isn't how many other people can use it effectively, the point is wind chokes are definitely effective.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't know, although I do know he made it a point not to show the details of how he was doing it.

That being said, the point isn't how many other people can use it effectively, the point is wind chokes are definitely effective.

I agree, wind chokes work.
There are a few vidoes on youtube about the 5 and 10 finger choke, even some on DVD too, by Marcelo Garcia for one and Chris Brennan.
I have to admit that alot of that stuff ( 5 and 10 finger chokes) remind me of Sperry's "the grip".

[MasterKiller]

I agree, wind chokes work. Everything works when you don't have a defense for it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Everything works when you don't have a defense for it.

Is this another "water is wet" thing?
:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

As with all things, the set-up is crucial AND if you can pullout a variation that your opponent hasn't seen then the chances are higher.
Machida VS Coutre anyone?

[MasterKiller]

Air choke this guy...

http://i.imgur.com/2Jjse.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Peter Griffin ?

[Drake]

Chokes cut off the oxygen supply to the brain by cutting off the "windpipe", a classic example is the RNC with the forearm across the throat.

The RNC is an arterial choke. Unless you want to call the Army wrong. Or Judo. And it's the CROOK of the elbow that is supposed to go across the throat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear_naked_choke

[Frost]

The RNC is an arterial choke. Unless you want to call the Army wrong. Or Judo. And it's the CROOK of the elbow that is supposed to go across the throat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear_naked_choke

and if done with the dan severn grip its a air choke right across the windpipe, and you see this alot in MMA because of glove control

[YouKnowWho]

the set-up is crucial ...

One of the set up can be done by surprise from behind. You can do either with a rope of with your forearm blade.

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/159/beggercarrydog.jpg

In TCMA, the "wind choke" is just a hip throw with head lock while your hip touch your opponent's back (instead of his belly) when you try to throw him "backward (instead of forward)". If you can lift your opponent's feet off the ground, you have taken pretty much all his defense and counters away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl5Hx3ZK6yc

[Drake]

and if done with the dan severn grip its a air choke right across the windpipe, and you see this alot in MMA because of glove control

Never did it with gloves... wouldn't know.

[Peaceful Orchid]

One of the set up can be done by surprise from behind. You can do either with a rope of with your arm.

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/159/beggercarrydog.jpg

The "wind choke" is just a hip throw with head lock while your hip touch your opponent's back instead of his belly when you try to throw him "backward". If you can lift your opponent's feet off the ground, you have taken pretty much all his defense and counters away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl5Hx3ZK6yc

I don't know why you insist on continuing to post less than workable, low percentage moves (unless you are trolling).

Stick to what you have experience with.

[Peaceful Orchid]

The RNC is an arterial choke. Unless you want to call the Army wrong. Or Judo. And it's the CROOK of the elbow that is supposed to go across the throat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear_naked_choke

Kind of ironic that the first picture shown there is of the elbow off to the side.

BTW, a good RNC is a combination of blood choke and air choke, as well as making your vertebrae in the neck feel like they are going to snap.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't know why you insist on continuing to post less than workable, low percentage moves (unless you are trolling).

Stick to what you have experience with.

I assume you have no knowledge in "hip throw". Is "hip throw" part of your BJJ training? I have used this exactly move in the street of Hawaii. I know it works 100% effectively.

[Drake]

Kind of ironic that the first picture shown there is of the elbow off to the side.

BTW, a good RNC is a combination of blood choke and air choke, as well as making your vertebrae in the neck feel like they are going to snap.

WTF? Why would you bother with cutting off the airflow if you have the arterial block? That doesn't even make sense. Not even a teensy weensy itty bitty amount of sense.

The ONLY point of an airflow choke is during competition, where, as Frost points out, gloves get in the way. Also arterial chokes are VERY dangerous, and we all know VERY dangerous is strictly prohibited in sports.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The RNC is an arterial choke. Unless you want to call the Army wrong. Or Judo. And it's the CROOK of the elbow that is supposed to go across the throat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear_naked_choke

Hadaka Jime is BOTH the wind choke AND the arterial choke.
Here is the wind wipe choke
https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSmelYrf0iOOfikSeF_-5GC24FZrWFNO-itcovQEohg7wnerB5l

The "naked" comes from not using the sleeve or gi like in other chokes.

Here is the "sleeper" version ( with the same name o course):
https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3UR7UBp-S8w1GgTY4NMBWzOsXpaByVY-iCv4yN39NE6-DBLAF

[Drake]

This is why I think some of the "MMA'ers" here are actually "MMA wannabes". Your own ****ing style says you are wrong.

http://www.mma-training.com/rear-naked-choke/

Now, PO, are you an actual MMA fighter, or just some bullsheeter who browses the internet, watches UFC, then comes here pretending to be an expert?

You are wrong. There's no "middle of the road" here. You are 100%, undeniably wrong.

[Drake]

Hadaka Jime is BOTH the wind choke AND the arterial choke.
Here is the wind wipe choke
https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSmelYrf0iOOfikSeF_-5GC24FZrWFNO-itcovQEohg7wnerB5l

The "naked" comes from not using the sleeve or gi like in other chokes.

Oh, that looks effective... :rolleyes:

[Peaceful Orchid]

I assume you have no knowledge in "hip throw". Is "hip throw" part of your BJJ training?

You think those are hip throws?

Sorry, but I'm having trouble seeing how anyone can take you seriously with the junk examples you post.

You want to know why the judo guys gave you a hard time? This is a perfect example.

[Drake]

And the RNC isn't a direct translation from Judo, a sport art. Two different things entirely.

There is a distinct difference in effectiveness between arterial and air chokes. I have been through both, both giving and receiving.

Second myth. You have to catch a guy by surprise to execute a RNC. Not true. It does, however, require some quick thinking and ability to change guards rapidly and fluidly. Against others who know this technique, it's even more difficult, because they know when someone is going for it, and will do whatever it takes to avoid it.

[Peaceful Orchid]

WTF? Why would you bother with cutting off the airflow if you have the arterial block? That doesn't even make sense. Not even a teensy weensy itty bitty amount of sense.

You don't "bother" with it. It's part of what happens with a RNC.



The ONLY point of an airflow choke is during competition, where, as Frost points out, gloves get in the way. Also arterial chokes are VERY dangerous, and we all know VERY dangerous is strictly prohibited in sports.

WTF are you talking about? Arterial chokes are the LESS dangerous ones and are the ones that are within the rules of sport.

[YouKnowWho]

You think those are hip throws?

Sorry, but I'm having trouble seeing how anyone can take you seriously with the junk examples you post.

You want to know why the judo guys gave you a hard time? This is a perfect example.
Apparently you truly don't understand the "hip throw". The hip throw can be done by controlling the

- waist (lower body control), or
- neck (upper body control).

It can also be done by throwing your opponent

- forward, or
- backward.

Why don't you put up your "hip throw" clip if you said that you know how to do it? Please tell us your method to "set up" any "hip throw".

As I have said, for any your "personal" clip that you put up, I'll put up one of mine so you won't feel being cheated. Is that fair?

[bawang]

john wang, you need to start eating meat again to get the big muskles. vegetarian make u look likje woman. if u get the big muskles they scares

[Drake]

You don't "bother" with it. It's part of what happens with a RNC.



WTF are you talking about? Arterial chokes are the LESS dangerous ones and are the ones that are within the rules of sport.

Uh yeah. Dude.. you are obviously clueless. Like I said, even your OWN style says you are wrong.

"The rear naked choke is a submission hold used in mixed martial arts that cuts off the flow of blood to the brain. If applied correctly, it will force the opponent to submit. If they do not submit, they will pass out within a matter of seconds."

"Yes, it is harmful to cut off blood supply to the brain. Whether you pass out or not, there may be minor damage in the brain. Such damage can be very difficult to detect even with extensive medical examinations."

"Blood choke holds are the most dangerous (like the Rear Naked Choke), these chokes cut off blood flow to the brain via the two carotid arteries in the neck. "

Either back your **** up or STFU.

[Drake]

Apparently you truly don't understand the "hip throw". The hip throw can be done by controlling the

- waist (lower body control), or
- neck (upper body control).

It can also be done by throwing your opponent

- forward, or
- backward.

Why don't you put up your "hip throw" clip if you said that you know how to do it? Please tell us your method of "set up" any "hip throw".

As I have said, for any your "personal" clip that you put up, I'll put up one of mine so you won't feel that you will be cheated. Is that fair?

Don't waste your time with him. He doesn't understand MMA, much less kung fu.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Oh, that looks effective... :rolleyes:

Now who's trolling, LOL !

[YouKnowWho]

Don't waste your time with him. He doesn't understand MMA, much less kung fu.
You are right. I believe he is KF after all. But KF knows that I'm not a troll from Bullsh!tdo. :confused:

[Drake]

Now who's trolling, LOL !

Ok ok... got me. Let me elaborate.

I believe the translation issue with RNC comes from some impressions that it is a direct translation from the judo term, and thus, the technique. The two are separate entities.

Secondly, the technique, from that imagine, looked ineffective, due to the gaps, allowing for an easy break, and what appears to be a generally ineffective technique, that may just cause pain and difficulty breathing, two things which a good fighter can mitigate and get over.

Non-trolly enough for you? ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok ok... got me. Let me elaborate.

I believe the translation issue with RNC comes from some impressions that it is a direct translation from the judo term, and thus, the technique. The two are separate entities.

Secondly, the technique, from that imagine, looked ineffective, due to the gaps, allowing for an easy break, and what appears to be a generally ineffective technique, that may just cause pain and difficulty breathing, two things which a good fighter can mitigate and get over.

Non-trolly enough for you? ;)

better, LOL !
I chose that pic because it is clear that the pressure is on the windpipe and not the arteries on that version of the RNC.
These are better:
https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTA89AkvQ66OwkKXnFBqC-lqwGFWGQRjc1QTGfd6GewTLs8Dobw

https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR5Pyk5v9_l4IA8pGiOKleKjz8mnfxlg xedthtJ_QQJ93rwCgWr

There is also an advantage to this choke in the sense that, unlike the artery choke where if the opponent tuck in the chin he can buy some time ( not much), in this version the tucked in chin can b e used to apply pressure:

https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ7l0PgcnqC_Kgp9b5AV7sxMasEyWUns zpV0DVhCzV9mxMM6Dut9w

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are some mixed views about the two RNC.
In Judo the sleeper version is always advocated because it is safer ( easier to control, less chance of injury) and more effective.
In a Gene Lebell seminar ages ago he mentioned the same thing BUT said that in some cases the wind pipe chokes was better ( but didn't expand).
Personally I have done both and had both done on me.
Obviously the windpipe one hurts a helluvalot more.

[YouKnowWho]

Here is the "sleeper" version ( with the same name o course):
https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3UR7UBp-S8w1GgTY4NMBWzOsXpaByVY-iCv4yN39NE6-DBLAF

I do think this is not that effective because the contact point is the inside elbow joint (soft spot - too much muscle there) instead of the "forearm blade (hard edge)".

May be in that picture, his opponent tried to bend his neck "sideways" to stop the blood flow (instead of air flow).