When are we going to stop this?

[YouKnowWho]

How many threads do we need to argue "TCMA vs. MMA"? Have we said everything that we want to say. Is there anything new that we have not yet covered?

Do we run out of meaningful discussion subjects in this forum? :(

[Drake]

I say we shut down every thread that goes that way.

[bawang]

we should go back to talking about tai chi wrestling.

[Drake]

we should go back to talking about tai chi wrestling.

Taking a break from your KFC? Be sure to wipe the grease and chemicals off your fingers before typing... it'll take the letters right off your keyboard.

[TenTigers]

problem is, every time a new guy joins the forum, he has to bring this up.
Without being total dix like at bullshido, we can politely him the situation and let him know how to access the archived threads.

[Neeros]

I propose a discussion on the pros and cons of mexican wrestling as a legitimate fighting style for MMA.

I'll start.

Pro. Masks are cool

Con. Can't climb the cage for aerials.

[dirtyrat]

How many threads do we need to argue "TCMA vs. MMA"? Have we said everything that we want to say. Is there anything new that we have not yet covered?

Do we run out of meaningful discussion subjects in this forum? :(

yup, just about it seems....

[RenDaHai]

I know what your saying YKW,

I say we add an entire 'Kung Fu Vs. MMA' forum and put it at the top of the list. That way it all gets put in there and the 'Kung Fu' forum can be more in depth.

Seriously.

[TenTigers]

I think we should have a link to trollshido.
It would be like a trap door.

[Yao Sing]

Just do like the "Is Shaolin Do for real?" thread and make one monster thread.

Actually, wait until this fades and see how empty this place gets. This seems to go in cycles. Crap threads dominate. Been that way since the KFO days.

[Yao Sing]

Thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0tziI98L6c&feature=related

[Yum Cha]

Hey Bawang,

Isn't it almost cold enough to eat the Dog? Got any good recipes?

Is it like 'Dog 2 ways' or?


Drake, you sound cranky, still living on them MREs? You getting short yet?

[Drake]

Hey Bawang,

Isn't it almost cold enough to eat the Dog? Got any good recipes?

Is it like 'Dog 2 ways' or?


Drake, you sound cranky, still living on them MREs? You getting short yet?

I AM cranky... but that is an unrelated issue. I still have some time left over here... but I am on the downhill in terms of service overall.

[YouKnowWho]

If you

- train TCMA, you will never say that TCMA is not effective.
- don't train TCMA then why do you want to join in any TCMA discussion?

I was in Judo forum once. One guy said, "You are not even a Judoka. Nobody care about your opinion. Why are you still hanging around here?" I left that forum quickly after that and never looked back. That guy was right. I don't train Judo and I should not get involve with Judo discussion at all (even if Chinese wrestling is very similar to Judo).

[Jimbo]

As TT said, a lot of newcomers (and some old-timers) will always bring up the old argument and think they're being original.

The key is to just not respond to those types of threads/posts, if we don't like them. The problem is, people always do respond. Then it becomes a protracted argument (not a debate) that goes on for pages and pages. Over and over again.
It won't stop until we stop ourselves from responding. I'm not saying don't debate; we need disagreements. It's how you learn. But the TCMA vs. MMA name-calling is beyond a dead horse; it's long since decomposed.

[YouKnowWho]

It won't stop until we stop ourselves from responding.
Sometime it's hard not to try to protect the honor of the TCMA. Where should we draw that line?

[Jimbo]

Sometime it's hard not to try to protect the honor of the TCMA. Where should we draw that line?

I understand that. I don't like it when people make sweeping negative statements about CMA either. The problem is, by constantly responding to those types of posts, we then prevent any meaningful discussion, because the negative types will derail every thread, knowing they'll get the attention they crave. It really is that simple.

[YouKnowWho]

I understand that. I don't like it when people make sweeping negative statements about CMA either. The problem is, by constantly responding to those types of posts, we then prevent any meaningful discussion, because the negative types will derail every thread, knowing they'll get the attention they crave. It really is that simple.

I think I agree with you on this. We have to stop some place. I'll stop to response to those threads then.

[Yum Cha]

For the longest time, I lurked and posted only in the southern forum, where things were really more about lineage battles than style battles. :D:D:D

Main forum, well, you know, the generous provider of this resource pays for it through advertising, meaning 'bums on seats'. A lively irrational argument about theoretical BS, with a full dose of trolling makes for a couple rounds of nachos for Gene, which I believe he is known to share as well....

But, ultimately, its up to each of us to control ourselves. You don't have to participate in those redundant arguments more than a couple of times to learn.

[-N-]

I say we add an entire 'Kung Fu Vs. MMA' forum and put it at the top of the list. That way it all gets put in there and the 'Kung Fu' forum can be more in depth.

Sounds good to me!

[Syn7]

Yup, just make an MMA vs TMA forum and put all threads relating to it in there and be done with it. Let them go on about it all they want. it would sure help clean up the general forum.

[Pork Chop]

I understand that. I don't like it when people make sweeping negative statements about CMA either. The problem is, by constantly responding to those types of posts, we then prevent any meaningful discussion, because the negative types will derail every thread, knowing they'll get the attention they crave. It really is that simple.

Maybe I'm guilty of this, but I had fun doing the research and got to touch on some stuff that's interesting to me - like what techniques I learned from cma that I use all the time in sparring.

Granted, the bickering's not productive, but I'll take any excuse I can to talk shop.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Sometime it's hard not to try to protect the honor of the TCMA. Where should we draw that line?

Want to "protect the honor" of TCMA. Post clips like this that would be great examples of TCMA being effective and would show you actually know what you are talking about.:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=789_1328390550


Instead of ones like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc4Ubxy54vE

that only show you've got zero understanding of realistic techniques and only give people more ammunition against you.

[YouKnowWho]

Instead of ones like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc4Ubxy54vE

that only show you've got zero understanding of realistic techniques and only give people more ammunition against you.
Do you know who is the person in that clip? Those are all his students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZouSsrTGNE

[Peaceful Orchid]

Do you know who is the person in that clip? Those are all his students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZouSsrTGNE

I couldn't care less who it is. If he is teaching mostluy things like that, he's one of those fraudulent martial arts teachers you were talking about.

[YouKnowWho]

I couldn't care less who it is. If he is teaching mostluy things like that, he's one of those fraudulent martial arts teachers you were talking about.

I'll take that back if I were you.

Again, How old are you?

[Peaceful Orchid]

Do you not see the irony of posting clips of a teacher teaching techniques that you claim are realistic and then posting clips of his students going live and not a single one of them is able to pull off one of the techniques you are claiming to be effective.

On the other hand, maybe those really are effective techniques, but he is such a bad teacher that he can't teach his students how to use them.

BTW, At least you are now posting examples of techniques that actually work. This is more along the lines of what you need to do since your mission seems to be to protect the honor of TCMA. Better than those clips that just sabotage that mission.

[YouKnowWho]

Do you not see the irony of posting clips of a teacher teaching techniques that you claim are realistic and then posting clips of his students going live and not a single one of them is able to pull off one of the techniques you are claiming to be effective.

On the other hand, maybe those really are effective techniques, but he is such a bad teacher that he can't teach his students how to use them.

The wrist lock can only work

- if your opponent grabs on your wrist.
- when you hold on his grabbing hand, he still refuses to let it go.

That was exactly how that clip was showing. You opponent can raise and bend his elbow to release the pressure. You can then change it into X. If your opponent turns his body to release the pressure, you can then change it into Y. Both X and Y are not showing in that clip. Since I don't believe you are truly interest in this subject. there is no need to describe X and Y in detail.

Please tell us know will you set up a "wrist lock".

[Peaceful Orchid]

The wrist lock can only work

- if your opponent grabs on your wrist.
- when you hold on his grabbing hand, he still refuses to let it go.

That was exactly how that clip was taught.

Please tell us know will you set up a "wrist lock".

I won't set up a wrist lock because, generally, they are way too low percentage.

What I will set up when someone tries to do that wrist lock to me when I "refuse to let go" is an arm drag to take the back or move into a double leg or step behind takedown.

[Peaceful Orchid]

The wrist lock can only work

- if your opponent grabs on your wrist.
- when you hold on his grabbing hand, he still refuses to let it go.



Most wrestlers will grab your wrist if you put it out there. Most will also take you down when you attempt to use your other hand to grab the way that was shown in that clip.

[YouKnowWho]

I won't set up a wrist lock because, generally, they are way too low percentage.

What I will set up when someone tries to do that wrist lock to me when I "refuse to let go" is an arm drag to take the back or move into a double leg or step behind takedown.

Now you are talking about wrestling. In another thread we were talking about "Chinese Qin Na Submission".

[Peaceful Orchid]

What is even more ironic is that a guy who teaches jacket wrestling is attempting to show a wrist grab takedown. That's like a BJJ guy trying to teach the intricacies of heel hooks.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Now you are talking about wrestling. In another thread we were talking about "Chinese Qin Na Submission".

And I said that won't work against even against a novice level wrestler or anyone else who has a minimum of grappling experience.

[YouKnowWho]

Most wrestlers will grab your wrist if you put it out there. Most will also take you down when you attempt to use your other hand to grab the way that was shown in that clip.
I strongly doubt about that.

Did I start this thread? When am I going to stop?

[Peaceful Orchid]

I strongly doubt about that.

Easy to prove me wrong. Wrestling season is right now. Find an open mat training night, go there and try your wrist lock technique. Post the clips of what happens when you do that.

Of course, you would never want to have actual documentation of something like that because it would show how wrong you are.

[YouKnowWho]

Easy to prove me wrong. Wrestling season is right now. Find an open mat training night, go there and try your wrist lock technique. Post the clips of what happens when you do that.

When did I say that "wrist lock" will always work in the ring? Did I say that "joint locking" will work when "opportunity" presents?

You still have not answered my question yet.

----- "How old are you?" -----

[Peaceful Orchid]

When did I say that "wrist lock" will always work in the ring? Did I say that "joint locking" will work when "opportunity" presents?-

And my point was that opportunity will rarely present so it's generally better to focus on opportunities that will present significantly more often such as those things shown in the clips of the fraudulent teacher's students.



-
You still have not answered my question yet.

----- "How old are you?" -----

LOL... What business of yours is it how old I am and how is it relevant to the conversations at hand?

[YouKnowWho]

LOL... What business of yours is it how old I am and how is it relevant to the conversations at hand?

Because I will feel stupid myself to find out that I'm "arguing" with a 16 years old kid.


in the clips of the fraudulent teacher's students.
Again, If I were you, I'll take that back. To say that someone is "fraud" online is not a good idea.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Because I will feel stupid myself to find out that I'm "arguing" with a 16 years old kid.

I told you I'm an old man.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Again, If I were you, I'll take that back.

I think have a right to watch someone do something and then make a determination that I am of the opinion he teaching fraudulent techniques. Unless that is against the rules of the forum I won't be taking anything back.

[YouKnowWho]

I think have a right to watch someone do something and then make a determination that I am of the opinion he teaching fraudulent techniques. Unless that is against the rules of the forum I won't be taking anything back.

If you say that's a fraudulent techniques, why don't you put up a clip and show us the right way to teach that technique?

I'll promise you that for every personal clip that you put up, I'll put up one of my personal clip so you will not feel being cheated.

[Peaceful Orchid]

To say that someone is "fraud" online is not a good idea.

i guess he could somehow hunt me down and sue me, so on the off chance that I might get some frivolous lawsuit thrown at me, let me rephrase that:

"I think that is a fraudulent technique. I do not know the teacher, so I don't know whether or not he is a fraud himself."

[Peaceful Orchid]

If you say that's a fraudulent techniques, why don't you put up a clip and show us the right way to teach that technique?

I'll promise you that for every personal clip that you put up, I'll put up one of my personal clip so you will not feel being cheated.

There is no way to teach that technique in a proper manner because it is a crappy technique that is extremely low percentage. I wouldn't teach that technique in the first place because I believe it would be fraudulent to do so.

[YouKnowWho]

i guess he could somehow hunt me down and sue me, so on the off chance that I might get some frivolous lawsuit thrown at me, let me rephrase that:

"I think that is a fraudulent technique. I do not know the teacher, so I don't know whether or not he is a fraud himself."
The TCMA world is much darker and dirty than that. There is no way that I can believe that you are "old".

Thanks for the correction. I can tell you this. If David C. K. Lin is a fraud teacher then we won't have any non-fraud teachers left on this planet.

As far as the "fraudulent technique", that "small circle wrist lock" existed in TCMA for over thousands years. Have I seen it worked by my own eyes? No! Do I think it may have a chance to work? Yes! maybe one day when you and I meet and if you grab on my wrist (this is important), I may be able to convince you at that moment. Until then, it's just your words vs. my words.

Haven't "argued" with anybody like this for a long time. It's fun. After my retirement, time is the only thing that I have plenty of it. :D

[Peaceful Orchid]

Thanks for the correction. I can tell you this. If David C. K. Lin is a fraud teacher then we won't have many non-fraud teachers left on this planet.

As far as the "fraudulent technique", that "small circle wrist lock" existed in TCMA for over thousands years. Have I seen it worked by my own eyes? No! Do I think it has chance to work? Yes! maybe one day when you and I meet and if you grab on my wrist and "refuse to let my hand go (this is important)", I may be able to convince you at that moment. Until then, it's just your words vs. my words.

So, basically, the technique that you used as your prime example for standing chi na, is one you have never seen work for real and also depends on the opponent being stupid and/or slow enough not to let go when you make your move.

No wonder Ray gives you guys a hard time for living in fantasy-land.

[YouKnowWho]

So, basically, the technique that you used as your prime example for standing chi na, is one you have never seen work for real and also depends on the opponent being stupid and/or slow enough not to let go when you make your move.

No wonder Ray gives you guys a hard time for living in fantasy-land.

I'm not in favor of wrist lock myself because my opponent still has too much freedom on his elbow joint, but I'm in favor of elbow lock, shoulder lock, waist (spine) lock, knee lock, ankle lock, and head lock.

I have used this elbow lock so many times on the mat. It's one of the 1st degree black belt testing requirement in ACSCA. One of my guys had shown this "elbow lock" in his Sambo/Judo club (all my guys have cross training) and those Sambo and Judo guys all loved it.

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/1032/cracking.jpg

[Peaceful Orchid]

I'm not in favor of wrist lock, but I'm in favor of elbow lock, shoulder lock, waist (spine) lock, knee lock, ankle lock, and head lock.

I have used this elbow lock so many times on the mat. It's one of the 1st degree black belt testing requirement in ACSCA.

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/1032/cracking.jpg

One of my guys had shown this "elbow lock" in his Sambo/Judo club and those Sambo and Judo guys all loved it.

Whew boy. I've finally figured it out. You are a troll from Bullshido posting here to make kung fu people look stupid.

Looks like I'm the stupid one for taking so long to figure this one out.

Good one. You got me. Nice troll job. I'm impressed!

I need some new troll glasses.

[YouKnowWho]

You are a troll from Bullshido posting here to make kung fu people look stupid.
Am I? I thought you are. :confused:

The "崩(Beng) - Crack" is 100% TCMA joint locking skill.

[Lokhopkuen]

Whew boy. I've finally figured it out. You are a troll from Bullshido posting here to make kung fu people look stupid.

Looks like I'm the stupid one for taking so long to figure this one out.

Good one. You got me. Nice troll job. I'm impressed!

I need some new troll glasses.

It's sad that you don't even realize you are trolling an experienced, respected teacher of traditional art. He doesn't have to do anything to make you look stupid, you're doing a capital job on your very own.

BTW
Welcome to our Kung Fu forum;)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Peaceful Orchid,
Your stats say you joined in 1970. You have 136 posts in all that time.

That tells me you are on staff at KFM and know darn well who "You Know Who" is.

Stop being an ass! :mad:

[MightyB]

So, basically, the technique that you used as your prime example for standing chi na, is one you have never seen work for real and also depends on the opponent being stupid and/or slow enough not to let go when you make your move.

No wonder Ray gives you guys a hard time for living in fantasy-land.

Noob - you don't see standing chin na very often in MMA because it's not practiced. It doesn't mean it doesn't work. I posted a clip of someone busting a top MMA athlete's arm with standing chin na takedown... someone who's obviously practiced standing chin na techniques.

Guess what other takedowns you don't see often in MMA? Uchi-mata, Sumi Gaeshi, heck you don't even see O-goshi, but if you are stupid enough to believe those takedowns don't work, then there's no help for you.

MMA isn't everything DB.

[Brule]

I remember a time when they said, high kicks are useless and don't work. But, TCMA still practised them and so did everyone. Then when they started causing KO's in MMA, all of a sudden the tune changed. Now you see them more regularly than before. Just because it hasn't happened in MMA doesn't mean it's ineffective.

[David Jamieson]

Content comes from you guys. If you don't want anymore mma v tcma threads stop responding to them when they get posted by your garden variety posters who can't seem to get out of the wet paper bag no matter how hard they punch.

I personally would rather talk about myriad other things such as:

- Origins of a given art.
- Methods and how they were developed
- Results from using an ancient method and if it is still valid today
- How styles address strength and maintenance of suppleness
- Fast gains or slow and steady, which would you rather do?

and so on.

I think it works along the lines of the lower your thought forms, the more likely you are gonna keep repeating those same thought forms.

"If you listen to fools, the mob rules" as Dio said. lol

[KungFuBiker]

It’s actually kinda funny, a thread started primarily to complain about the constant bickering about TCMA v/s MMA that (almost) immediately degenerates into…
Seriously, you guys remind me of a cross town junior-high rivalry. And it’s not just TCMA v/s MMA it also seems to occur (and is just as ridiculous) between TCMA schools/styles. I am certain many of you are Sifus and/or Black Belts in a discipline where restraint and respect are one of the many things taught and you can’t do any better?
I am a recent newcomer to these threads and I joined thinking it would be fun and interesting to connect with people who share my interest in the martial arts, maybe learn some things about different styles. Sad to say I am disappointed.

[David Jamieson]

It’s actually kinda funny, a thread started primarily to complain about the constant bickering about TCMA v/s MMA that (almost) immediately degenerates into…
Seriously, you guys remind me of a cross town junior-high rivalry. And it’s not just TCMA v/s MMA it also seems to occur (and is just as ridiculous) between TCMA schools/styles. I am certain many of you are Sifus and/or Black Belts in a discipline where restraint and respect are one of the many things taught and you can’t do any better?
I am a recent newcomer to these threads and I joined thinking it would be fun and interesting to connect with people who share my interest in the martial arts, maybe learn some things about different styles. Sad to say I am disappointed.

Well, we can't please everyone and to be honest, there are many who simply don't care. the social aspect will always be organic and changing.

There are many here who are serious practitioners, teachers, students etc. Some of them are even famous!

Rule of thumb when wading into these things is that you have to understand you are going to shovel a lot of snow before you get to the cabin... :)

[Ray Pina]

How many threads do we need to argue "TCMA vs. MMA"? Have we said everything that we want to say. Is there anything new that we have not yet covered?:(

I don't look at is as a TCMA vs MMA issue. I look at it as a TCMA validity issue.... MMA, being today's modern standard, is simply what it is being measured against now.

A car manufacturer not obsessed right now with alternative fuel methods will be gone, have no future in 25 years.

TCMA should have been obsessed with keeping their training and core materials about applicable combat the momment the government started to get involved, push form and ultimately Wu Shu.

Everyone got fat off the Bruce Lee buzz then Jackie Chan. Multiple generations of non warriors passed along fluff to another generation ducking open competition.

This of course does not apply to the hardcore legit TCMAers here or the UFC fighters moonlighting as Shaolin Monks. Its the other guys we don't see anywhere doing anything.

This should be issue No. 1 for Kung Fu if it seeks any legitimacy as a martial art.

[Peaceful Orchid]

It's sad that you don't even realize you are trolling an experienced, respected teacher of traditional art. He doesn't have to do anything to make you look stupid, you're doing a capital job on your very own.

If that's what an experienced TCMA thinks are effective, high percentage techniques then it's easy to see why Ray thinks so lowly of TCMA's in general.

[wenshu]

Peaceful Orchid,
Your stats say you joined in 1970. You have 136 posts in all that time.

That tells me you are on staff at KFM and know darn well who "You Know Who" is.

Stop being an ass! :mad:

All that means is that the date_joined field in the MYSQL db is NULL. PHP's date() function outputs 0000-00-00 as 1970-01-01.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_time

It is likely because it is an alternate account of a member of the old system that got transferred over here like most of the regulars or there was a bug when they joined and the field was left NULL.

[David Jamieson]

I don't look at is as a TCMA vs MMA issue. I look at it as a TCMA validity issue.... MMA, being today's modern standard, is simply what it is being measured against now.

A car manufacturer not obsessed right now with alternative fuel methods will be gone, have no future in 25 years.

TCMA should have been obsessed with keeping their training and core materials about applicable combat the momment the government started to get involved, push form and ultimately Wu Shu.

Everyone got fat off the Bruce Lee buzz then Jackie Chan. Multiple generations of non warriors passed along fluff to another generation ducking open competition.

This of course does not apply to the hardcore legit TCMAers here or the UFC fighters moonlighting as Shaolin Monks. Its the other guys we don't see anywhere doing anything.

This should be issue No. 1 for Kung Fu if it seeks any legitimacy as a martial art.


So, how are YOU helping that Pina? You say this stuff as if you mean it, but really, your general tack is anti tcma, bitter rants and ignoring the people who do exactly what you demand.

You don't even consider the sheer amount of fluff and nonsense that goes on in mma schools and excuse it because you favour it.

Maybe you should man up, be honest and properly understand your own point of view.

In other words, if you think TCMA should adapt and modernize, then go do that and be happy with your thing. There is no reward in stomping yoru feet and whining like a little b*tch because people like to do forms and qigong.

FYI I've had offers to purchase forms and lineage by mma clubs that can't get their body of students into the regular sparring and ramped up flow drills. Why? Because there are a lot of people who aren't into that because there is no goal for them. They don't want to fight amateur level, they don't want to fight pro or semi-pro, they want a martial arts workout and some basic training and continuation. Where are they gonna get that if some jerk keeps demanding they go full on and get injured all the time if they really want to learn.

In my opinion, there is loads of immature thought in many different houses of training. All of them have their dummies and fails.

What is sad is that no matter how many times it is explained to you you maintain that irritating troll dumbness.

[hskwarrior]

So, how are YOU helping that Pina? You say this stuff as if you mean it, but really, your general tack is anti tcma, bitter rants and ignoring the people who do exactly what you demand.

You don't even consider the sheer amount of fluff and nonsense that goes on in mma schools and excuse it because you favour it.

Maybe you should man up, be honest and properly understand your own point of view.

In other words, if you think TCMA should adapt and modernize, then go do that and be happy with your thing. There is no reward in stomping yoru feet and whining like a little b*tch because people like to do forms and qigong.

FYI I've had offers to purchase forms and lineage by mma clubs that can't get their body of students into the regular sparring and ramped up flow drills. Why? Because there are a lot of people who aren't into that because there is no goal for them. They don't want to fight amateur level, they don't want to fight pro or semi-pro, they want a martial arts workout and some basic training and continuation. Where are they gonna get that if some jerk keeps demanding they go full on and get injured all the time if they really want to learn.

In my opinion, there is loads of immature thought in many different houses of training. All of them have their dummies and fails.

What is sad is that no matter how many times it is explained to you you maintain that irritating troll dumbness.

Who is this? and what did you do with Jamieson? :eek:

[SPJ]

there is a subforum for MMA

all MMA related topics discussed there.

I like some of the MMA gears but not all of them

glove, shorts, etc

I really like things loose and a bit over size

but sometimes, no matter what

you sweat and got statics or electrical shock from MMA wares

cotton is the best

me think.

:)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The internet is full of strange, demented people. Take a glance sometime at a story on Yahoo and read the comments section at the bottom. For a story I read recently about a woman and her children dying in a house fire there were comments such as "Roast in hell, *****" and "One less welfare recipient to vote for Obama".

The point is, the internet is a vastness of stupid, illogical, ill-informed people trying to get a rise out of someone, all while being completely anonoymous. It's easy to say that kind of crud when there are no repricussions for your actions. It's easy to drag a well respected TCMA instructor like You Know Who through the mud when you will never post any relevant information about yourself, just more bull sh**it about how "MMA is da best", "My board shorts and rash guard make me stone cold killa", and of course "If it's not BJJ, it's crap and not worth anything, fighting didn't even exist until Helio Gracie was born".

Please, get over yourselves. No one of any relevance cares who you are or what you do, or you wouldn't hide behind a screen name.

[Chadderz]

The internet is full of strange, demented people. Take a glance sometime at a story on Yahoo and read the comments section at the bottom. For a story I read recently about a woman and her children dying in a house fire there were comments such as "Roast in hell, *****" and "One less welfare recipient to vote for Obama".

The point is, the internet is a vastness of stupid, illogical, ill-informed people trying to get a rise out of someone, all while being completely anonoymous. It's easy to say that kind of crud when there are no repricussions for your actions. It's easy to drag a well respected TCMA instructor like You Know Who through the mud when you will never post any relevant information about yourself, just more bull sh**it about how "MMA is da best", "My board shorts and rash guard make me stone cold killa", and of course "If it's not BJJ, it's crap and not worth anything, fighting didn't even exist until Helio Gracie was born".

Please, get over yourselves. No one of any relevance cares who you are or what you do, or you wouldn't hide behind a screen name.

Well to be fair it's a two way street man! there are idiots on both sides of every argument. I've heard my fair part (in person) of kung fu guy saying "Well, That (BJJ) just looks really gay to be honest."

Other things like "a 100 year old kung fu master would kick Chuck Lidells answer."

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well to be fair it's a two way street man! there are idiots on both sides of every argument. I've heard my fair part (in person) of kung fu guy saying "Well, That (BJJ) just looks really gay to be honest."

Other things like "a 100 year old kung fu master would kick Chuck Lidells answer."

Yes well, no MA has the monopoly on stupidity.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I really don't have any issues with debating the merits of MMA VS TMA.
There is nothing new here of course because this debate ( "sport" vs TMA) has been going on for ages, Kano had to deal with it, so did Oyama and so many others.
It may be the the "true" argument is not of sport vs TMA or MMA VS TMA, but oen of fighters VS non-fighters.
Don't know...
One thing is for sure, a debate that has been around for over 100 years is NOT going anywhere.

On a side note, one of the earliest sport vs "the real" was mentioned from the times of Alexander and there was that case of when swordsmanship in Japan was becoming more about form than function, that Yagyu Jubei challended 3 swordsman to duel to prove that their "passive" swordsmanship was inferior and he killed 2 and cut the arm off the third.

There is a lesson there though- in those cases the people that were making the statements FOUGHT to prove their points.

[Brule]

Yes well, no MA has the monopoly on stupidity.

May i introduce you to the wing chun forum? :D

[TenTigers]

I don't look at is as a TCMA vs MMA issue. I look at it as a TCMA validity issue.... MMA, being today's modern standard, is simply what it is being measured against now.


and McDonald's and Burger King are the standard for measuring a hamburger.
See, it all depends on the relative experience of those doing the measuring and those who value it.
Most people's experience of haute cuisine is McDonald's, just as most people's experience of Martial Art these days is MMA.
There is a whole world out there. Most will never see it.

[Jimbo]

I really don't have any issues with debating the merits of MMA VS TMA.
There is nothing new here of course because this debate ( "sport" vs TMA) has been going on for ages, Kano had to deal with it, so did Oyama and so many others.
It may be the the "true" argument is not of sport vs TMA or MMA VS TMA, but oen of fighters VS non-fighters.
Don't know...
One thing is for sure, a debate that has been around for over 100 years is NOT going anywhere.

On a side note, one of the earliest sport vs "the real" was mentioned from the times of Alexander and there was that case of when swordsmanship in Japan was becoming more about form than function, that Yagyu Jubei challended 3 swordsman to duel to prove that their "passive" swordsmanship was inferior and he killed 2 and cut the arm off the third.

There is a lesson there though- in those cases the people that were making the statements FOUGHT to prove their points.

In recent history, I'll also add to that the rivalry between Motobu Choki and Funakoshi Gichin.

The issue is more about when things devolve into insults, than actual debating. All of the CMA were developed because at the time, the developers perceived shortcomings in the arts that were available to them.

I know some people really enjoy the child-like back-and-forth insults, but it gets old fast. You can compare it to the kid in elementary school who liked to f@rt in class. It was amusing the first time, maybe the 2nd and 3rd times. But after that, it's just boring, annoying and it stinks up everything.

[Ray Pina]

First off, my comments were not directed towards You Know Who.... I respect his opinions and posts. I agree with a lot of them.


So, how are YOU helping that Pina? You say this stuff as if you mean it, but really, your general tack is anti tcma, bitter rants and ignoring the people who do exactly what you demand.

I'm not helping or not helping. I'm writing truth and reality.... aside from the masses of San Da and San Shou fighters who are somehow going unnoticed by the UFC, the traditional version of Chinese Martial Arts, the ones that DON'T train like kickboxing and MMA. The ones that are NOT like Coach Ross's gym, but MORE LIKE the striking foam noodle, lion dancing, drunken form, light chi sau, iron palm but no use, one inch punch to the air, tiaiji push hands, ba gua circle walking types.... all of those! Who aren't fighting anywhere. All the 18 to 35 year old guys training like that and NO pro UFC/MMA fighters..... they can't claim what even TKD can claim. That when used wit proper skill it works against other tough, trained fighters.




You don't even consider the sheer amount of fluff and nonsense that goes on in mma schools and excuse it because you favour it.

Maybe in your experience. I've trained at Renzo Gracies and three different MMA clubs here. They're teams actually. There is the team spirit.

Renzo's school is huge but still attracts about an even number of people who are hobbyists and weekend competitors. But there is also a rank of world class competitors.

Here in Puerto Rico, in the three teams I train with. EVERYONE competes in BJJ gi and no gi. You're not forced to, but you're training the same way as everyone else anyway and highly encouraged. It is clear rank is involved with competition. Everyone competes in BJJ.

There's usually 2 to 3 guys in each club, including the head coach, that fights MMA.




if you think TCMA should adapt and modernize, then go do that and be happy with your thing. There is no reward in stomping yoru feet and whining like a little b*tch because people like to do forms and qigong..
You have been misunderstanding me.... TCMA is dead. There is no modernizing.

Also, I do not care or whine over what Kung Fu people do with their time. I only point out that its not fighting, and thus when they comment they are talking from out of their a$$ hole.




FYI I've had offers to purchase forms and lineage by mma clubs that can't get their body of students into the regular sparring and ramped up flow drills.
Shame on them. Perhaps they aren't successful because they aren't bright.... an organization trying to make it as a fight club turns to you:confused:



Why? Because there are a lot of people who aren't into that because there is no goal for them. They don't want to fight amateur level, they don't want to fight pro or semi-pro, they want a martial arts workout and some basic training and continuation.

This is my overall point: You can't dumb down martial arts. It's not easy and not for everyone and that's why the discipline gets instilled in those who truly walk the path of a martial artist.

Basic training and conditioning? You get that in high school gym class.

You become a black belt level martial artist, an elite athlete, by training and conditioning hard. By doing countless hours of hard drills. Hard sparring. By getting the bloody noses. By breaking your bones and sometimes others by accident.

Organizations, styles as a whole, progress from taking those skills and putting them to the test in competition. Those styles are alive.



Where are they gonna get that if some jerk keeps demanding they go full on and get injured all the time if they really want to learn.

If they really wanted to learn they would join a boxing, kick boxing, MMA, Judo or BJJ club. Maybe TKD or karate if it's a good school (the previous organizations have quality control built in, due to competition)

Do you think you're doing the people a service that really want to learn by having them do hours of form instead of hours of take down drills? Iron palm training instead of basic live boxing drills? Chi Sau instead of real sparring?

These "students of martial arts" develop a false sense of security, though they know it inside. They live week lives dodging and ditching being their highest selves..... this is also why I will not respond to you further. I don't respect you. You close topics and delete topics that are totally suitable except for your world view.

My posts are not about me or you. They're about week Kung Fu. If you take offense to that, it's because you know you haven't done the fighting I'm talking about. And neither have your students.... if you had, one video post = conversation over. You haven't and won't, because you can't. And that's why you're angry and that's my point.... frustrated cowardly men.

[Lucas]

when i started judo i had a HUGE leg up on people who were new to judo and to martial arts both. no question, simply because of my cma training. the judo club i belong to is no joke, at all. serious competitors, olympic athlete quality head instructor. hell we had a guy come up to train before he went to compete via invitation at abu dhabi...if you know what abu dhabi is then ya...every person that learned i did kungfu was down with it. i was told that i was a natural grappler from the first day of training. i give 100% of that credit to my kungfu training. no question at all in my mind. i know because its my life and my training. this mma vs tma or cma is dead thing is generally from what iv noticed an internet thing. real people training in the gym could not care any less.

for me, the cma training ive had, is quite validated in my eyes as it has helped me tremendously.

HOWEVER!!!

there was still alot of crap i cut out. this is what ray is talking about usually.

[wenshu]

I'm not helping or not helping. I'm writing truth and reality.... aside from the masses of San Da and San Shou fighters who are somehow going unnoticed by the UFC, the traditional version of Chinese Martial Arts, the ones that DON'T train like kickboxing and MMA. The ones that are NOT like Coach Ross's gym, but MORE LIKE the striking foam noodle, lion dancing, drunken form, light chi sau, iron palm but no use, one inch punch to the air, tiaiji push hands, ba gua circle walking types.... all of those! Who aren't fighting anywhere. All the 18 to 35 year old guys training like that and NO pro UFC/MMA fighters..... they can't claim what even TKD can claim. That when used wit proper skill it works against other tough, trained fighters.

I'm gonna yell so maybe this time you'll pay attention.


http://i.imgur.com/yXnyG.png
http://i.imgur.com/O8VRc.png

[Snipsky]

Shame on them. Perhaps they aren't successful because they aren't bright.... an organization trying to make it as a fight club turns to you

Jealous much? LMAO. WE don't see anyone going to you now do we? you had ONE student, how'd that pan out? LMAO.

Kung Fu is dead? yet there are hundreds of thousands of kung fu students around the world. I believe you're just a kung fu hater because you have no culture yourself. i believe you are a bitter betty because you don't have any students. So you run your mouth in a place that contains the very element you claim to hate. its nobody's fault but your own for not being a legend or even famous, how about well known? LMAO. thats your own doing.

you wouldn't be wasting your time on a forum if you were really doing something productive with your MMA schtick. yet you come here to spew your despise for TCMA. still, TCMA continues to thrive regardless of YOU. :p


Do you think you're doing the people a service that really want to learn by having them do hours of form instead of hours of take down drills? Iron palm training instead of basic live boxing drills? Chi Sau instead of real sparring?

If people didn't want to learn forms, do lion dancing, or practice weapons they will never get to use in their lives they wouldn't join these kung fu schools. IDIOT.

Most people want to be able to defend themselves. If they wanted to be fighting champions they would indicate that when considering a potential school. even still, the amount of kung fu students worldwide totally eclipses that of MMA world.

But all in all, if TCMA wasn't worth talking about, then you wouldn't be wasting your time with it would you? I don't see the MMA CHAMPS on any kind of forums sounding your your dumb arse so whats that say about you? jajajajaja.


These "students of martial arts" develop a false sense of security, though they know it inside. They live week lives dodging and ditching being their highest selves....

WTF? is that some wierdo hippy surfer boy mumbo jumbo?


They're about week Kung Fu.

This is TWICE now that you spelled "WEAK" as WEEK.......and you claim to be a writer?

[Drake]

Jesus studied TCMA.

[Lucas]

anyone read the newest ezine article by leeli

thats the same dude wiz cool c was telling us to watch out for as an up and comming shuai jiao mma fighter...looks like the guy is **** good.

[hskwarrior]

Kung Fu is dead? yet there are hundreds of thousands of kung fu students around the world. I believe you're just a kung fu hater because you have no culture yourself. i believe you are a bitter betty because you don't have any students. So you run your mouth in a place that contains the very element you claim to hate. its nobody's fault but your own for not being a legend or even famous, how about well known? LMAO. thats your own doing.

you wouldn't be wasting your time on a forum if you were really doing something productive with your MMA schtick. yet you come here to spew your despise for TCMA. still, TCMA continues to thrive regardless of YOU.

The only place he'll be a legend is on this forum. :D

[MasterKiller]

Jesus studied TCMA.

Yeah, and he verbally submitted.

[Ray Pina]

this mma vs tma or cma is dead thing is generally from what iv noticed an internet thing. real people training in the gym could not care any less.


Real people training in the gym know what you're capable of. You don't blah, blah, blah if you're everyone's throwing dummy.

That was one of my biggest frustrations with TCMA. I started TCMA as a second degree black belt in Issin-Ryu.... and I had to contend with sniviling seniors who demanded respect without having done anything to earn it.

Daily conversation within the first 4 months of training:
Me" When are we going to spar."

Sifu: "You can't spar with the senior's they'll hurt you. We don't train to spar or sport. We train to kill."

A lot of people believed that line I heard at pretty much every kwoon I trained at or visited.

If you're a natural at Judo or BJJ your rank will right away say more than blah, blah, blah. Those styles are regimented and standardized somewhat via competition. A brown belt in BJJ means something...... then there's always results.

This is different than "my sifu said."

[RenDaHai]

These "students of martial arts" develop a false sense of security, though they know it inside. They live week lives dodging and ditching being their highest selves..... this is also why I will not respond to you further. I don't respect you. You close topics and delete topics that are totally suitable except for your world view.

My posts are not about me or you. They're about week Kung Fu. If you take offense to that, it's because you know you haven't done the fighting I'm talking about. And neither have your students.... if you had, one video post = conversation over. You haven't and won't, because you can't. And that's why you're angry and that's my point.... frustrated cowardly men.


Sanjuro Pointed out the debate might better be called Fighters Vs. Non-Fighters. I think thats very true. Ray, why does everyone have to be a fighter? The world doesn't work that way. ANd don't non-fighters have a right to study some MA as well? They don't want to do the hardcore stuff, it will also not help them become better fighters because they are psychologically not fighters, it doesn't matter what skills they practice.

And the way they practice, however 'week' will probably help them put their hands in front of their face when trouble starts, and you know what, most of the time that's enough. They won't be able to counter anyway because its not in them to do so. So forcing them to train an aggressive style is useless. Aggressive defence is as minimal as possible, leaving as much space to counter as possible. Its not a good defence if you don't intend to counter.

So you know what, slap contact Chi Sao is enough for these guys... Whatever you think its better than nothing. They wouldn't want to do more. And combat proficiency is low on the list of their reasons for doing MA. And when it comes to the many other things a MA gives you, for many of these things, even lion dance can be stronger than mma.

Were not all the same..... A Rabbit is better off using Rabbit style than tiger style. Tiger style is stronger than rabbit style, but its just not appropriate for a rabbit. If a rabbit starts acting like a tiger, he won't last long at all.

Forgive the Child like metaphor, but I thought it may be the best way to get through to people who still don't get it.

****, I'm doing the debate again.... Gene please ban me.

[Lucas]

Real people training in the gym know what you're capable of. You don't blah, blah, blah if you're everyone's throwing dummy.

That was one of my biggest frustrations with TCMA. I started TCMA as a second degree black belt in Issin-Ryu.... and I had to contend with sniviling seniors who demanded respect without having done anything to earn it.

Daily conversation within the first 4 months of training:
Me" When are we going to spar."

Sifu: "You can't spar with the senior's they'll hurt you. We don't train to spar or sport. We train to kill."

A lot of people believed that line I heard at pretty much every kwoon I trained at or visited.

If you're a natural at Judo or BJJ your rank will right away say more than blah, blah, blah. Those styles are regimented and standardized somewhat via competition. A brown belt in BJJ means something...... then there's always results.

This is different than "my sifu said."

I agree completely. Hey Ray check out the Legend Fighting Championships. serious pro mma fighters there. If you actually read the Fighters BIOS most that claim SANDA as their style, are out of cma training camps to produce the SANDA program. just pull up all the hongkong/china fighters from their fighter rosters and you will se a shat ton of cma sanda fighters. it is a chinese mma circuit, so you will also notice they seperate muay thai from sanda in the style listing for each fighter. if you take the time, and do the research on those fighters, you will see that the way CMA represents itself in MMA is through Sanda and Shuai Jiao.

http://www.legendfc.com/en/fighters/60/Yao-Honggang/

a CMA Sanda program essentially cuts out all the fluff of cma that fighters dont need to compete in the ring. its a stream lined system of training. many sanda fighters are straight up cma .

[uki]

but you still can't grab the monkey's peach in the mma. ;)

[Ray Pina]

I'm gonna yell so maybe this time you'll pay attention.


http://i.imgur.com/yXnyG.png
http://i.imgur.com/O8VRc.png


All of these UFC SHUI JIAO fighters that are flooding my mind.... are they of the coach ross kick boxing, wrestling, MMA type of gyms. Or are they of the form, lion dancing, kwan do spinning kwoons?

oh wait, Shui Jiao is a sport, mostly derived of Judo and Sambo players and nothing to do with Wing CHun, Taiji, Ba Gua, etc, etc, etc.

Let me rephrase my statement then so I'll be deemed more accurate:

The following styles are dead martial arts:
Wing Chun
Hung Gar (all of the Gar family styles)
S. Mantis
N. Mantis
N. Shaolin
S. Shaolin
Bak Mei
Taiji
Ba Gua
Hsing-I
Dog boxing
Five animals
Dragon style
Lama Pai
Chinese sword
Leopard Kung Fu
Monkey Kung Fu
All the animal kung fus
White Crane
Drunken fist

... I thought it was just easier to say TCMA since the what, 3 Shui JIao and San Da guys claim kickboxing.

Anyway WuShu lives and prospers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree completely. Hey Ray check out the Legend Fighting Championships. serious pro mma fighters there. If you actually read the Fighters BIOS most that claim SANDA as their style, are out of cma training camps to produce the SANDA program. just pull up all the hongkong/china fighters from their fighter rosters and you will se a shat ton of cma sanda fighters. it is a chinese mma circuit, so you will also notice they seperate muay thai from sanda in the style listing for each fighter. if you take the time, and do the research on those fighters, you will see that the way CMA represents itself in MMA is through Sanda and Shuai Jiao.

http://www.legendfc.com/en/fighters/60/Yao-Honggang/

a CMA Sanda program essentially cuts out all the fluff of cma that fighters dont need to compete in the ring. its a stream lined system of training. many sanda fighters are straight up cma .

Considering the history of Sanda/sanshou I am not sure how much credit TCMA can take.
They certainly can't take MORE credit than the other systems from which techniques and training were borrowed from.

[Ray Pina]

Sanjuro Pointed out the debate might better be called Fighters Vs. Non-Fighters. I think thats very true. Ray, why does everyone have to be a fighter? The world doesn't work that way. ANd don't non-fighters have a right to study some MA as well? They don't want to do the hardcore stuff, it will also not help them become better fighters because they are psychologically not fighters, it doesn't matter what skills they practice.

And the way they practice, however 'week' will probably help them put their hands in front of their face when trouble starts, and you know what, most of the time that's enough. They won't be able to counter anyway because its not in them to do so. So forcing them to train an aggressive style is useless. Aggressive defence is as minimal as possible, leaving as much space to counter as possible. Its not a good defence if you don't intend to counter.

So you know what, slap contact Chi Sao is enough for these guys... Whatever you think its better than nothing. They wouldn't want to do more. And combat proficiency is low on the list of their reasons for doing MA. And when it comes to the many other things a MA gives you, for many of these things, even lion dance can be stronger than mma.

Were not all the same..... A Rabbit is better off using Rabbit style than tiger style. Tiger style is stronger than rabbit style, but its just not appropriate for a rabbit. If a rabbit starts acting like a tiger, he won't last long at all.

Forgive the Child like metaphor, but I thought it may be the best way to get through to people who still don't get it.

****, I'm doing the debate again.... Gene please ban me.

So are you saying TCMA is a way for week, timid people to experience martial arts by dressing in ancient chinese clothes and playing with fake weaponry? I'm OK with that. I applaud that.

Don't post footage of a fool on a roof and somehow relate it to martial proficiency. Same for lying on a bed of nails. Hitting your head against a wall. Doing golden turtle posture.

Personally, martial arts is about fighting. It's learning the technique, it's gaining the conditioning and physical and mental toughness to meet violence with more, better controlled violence. That's what martial arts are.

Race car driving is about racing fast cars around the track. It's not for everyone. My niece has a battery operated SUV toy car she rides in that I can out pace walking backwards..... don't call it race car driving. Don;t call di(king around martial arts training.

You either race cars or you don't.
You either train martial arts or you don't.

[Ray Pina]

Considering the history of Sanda/sanshou I am not sure how much credit TCMA can take.
They certainly can't take MORE credit than the other systems from which techniques and training were borrowed from.

The Chinese are actually very smart and I respect them.... it's the stupid Americans that buy the Shaolin Kung Fu the same way they buy the fake brand name bags in Chinatown. Cheep crap that fails.

The Chinese are actually smart. Just like they're taking apart our drone that "landed" in Iran, they took western boxing and kick boxing and Judo and Sambo. They took what worked and place the Made in China logo on it = San Da

They're training Gracie BJJ in Shanghai. I go every year. I'll be there next month.

China will produce an international MMA champ eventually.... it won't look like Wing Chun. Not because they refined it so much. It's because it will be MMA: kick boxing with wrestling and Judo.

My other issue is, why is kick boxing viewed as a dirty subject around here. tons of great technique. MMA is all about using nothing but the best techniques..... why would this be resisted? Wing CHun is kick boxing. Hung Gar is kick boxing..... or used to be. Maybe. Some say. < ------ been dead to long to guarantee.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Considering the history of Sanda/sanshou I am not sure how much credit TCMA can take.
They certainly can't take MORE credit than the other systems from which techniques and training were borrowed from.

I really believe San Shou comes down to three main components of mixture 1. Western Boxing 2. Various TCMA 3. Shuai Jiao

The theory of true Sanda was the four areas of fighting 1. Da-Punches, Elbow, Upper Body Strikes 2. Ti-Kicks and Lower Body Strikes 3. Shuai- Throwing/Grappling techniques 4. Na- Seizing or submission techniques

I have always felt that most of the hand strikes and punching was western boxing, kicks were from traditional Kung Fu with some Thai influence, wrestling from Shuai Jiao and even some Greco Roman, and the submission from Chin Na techniques and various jiujitsu. Considering the sport version generally does not allow ground grappling, the last one is moot for the sport version. However, with the MMA emergance, it will be utilized more obviously.

[wenshu]

mostly derived of Judo and Sambo players a


Shuai Jiao is a hell of a lot older than Judo and Sambo. It has similar stances, movements and training methods to many of the styles in your little list there and could easily be argued to be traditional chinese martial art.

I would say your bias is blatant and lazy but I'm too distracted by your poor imitation motivational speaker "reach your higher selves" jibberish.

Your whole world is this <-> ****ing big.

[Lucas]

Considering the history of Sanda/sanshou I am not sure how much credit TCMA can take.
They certainly can't take MORE credit than the other systems from which techniques and training were borrowed from.

thats why its important to actually look at the fighters bio, imo. from there many times you can learn what the make up of their sanda is. for instance i saw one that claimed shaolin kungfu for his sanda training...thats pretty straight forward if you ask me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So are you saying TCMA is a way for week, timid people to experience martial arts by dressing in ancient chinese clothes and playing with fake weaponry? I'm OK with that. I applaud that.

Don't post footage of a fool on a roof and somehow relate it to martial proficiency. Same for lying on a bed of nails. Hitting your head against a wall. Doing golden turtle posture.

Personally, martial arts is about fighting. It's learning the technique, it's gaining the conditioning and physical and mental toughness to meet violence with more, better controlled violence. That's what martial arts are.

Race car driving is about racing fast cars around the track. It's not for everyone. My niece has a battery operated SUV toy car she rides in that I can out pace walking backwards..... don't call it race car driving. Don;t call di(king around martial arts training.

You either race cars or you don't.
You either train martial arts or you don't.

You are being too black and white dude.
The fact is that TCMA do NOT (just) attract fighters, the vast majority do NOT go to a TCMA to fight ( although they may go to learn to protect themselves).
No one goes:
I want to be a pro fighter, I am joining a wing chun school.
No, people that want to be fighters join fight gyms.
Sure that is changing a bit with Sanda, but right now only WITHIN the TCMA community ( and what does that tell you?).
Outside the TCMA community people that want to be fighters go into MMA, Boxing or MT,
People that want to compete in a MA sport go into Judo or TKD or Wrestling or Sambo ( depending on their community).
That leaves the rest.

Sure TCMA has fighters, but those are the guys that CHOSE TCMA and became or already were fighters and that is a very small minority.
The same can be said for the majority of Karate styles and so many other MA too.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Sanjuro Pointed out the debate might better be called Fighters Vs. Non-Fighters. I think thats very true. Ray, why does everyone have to be a fighter? The world doesn't work that way. ANd don't non-fighters have a right to study some MA as well? They don't want to do the hardcore stuff, it will also not help them become better fighters because they are psychologically not fighters, it doesn't matter what skills they practice.

Not everyone needs to be a fighter. The problem almost always starts when the non-fighters tell the fighters what "works" when it's pretty obvious they have no clue what really works and what doesn't work.

[Ray Pina]

Your whole world is this <-> ****ing big.

That last line is funny because I just got over jet jag. In the past 3 weeks I;ve been in Hannover, Germany, New York City and Las Vegas. Next month I got to Shanghai:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

thats why its important to actually look at the fighters bio, imo. from there many times you can learn what the make up of their sanda is. for instance i saw one that claimed shaolin kungfu for his sanda training...thats pretty straight forward if you ask me.

Sure, but as I mentioned to Ray, when people in TCMA want to be fighters their choice is ( typically and right now):
Join a Sanda gym
Join a "kickboxing" gym
Join a MMA gym

Of course there are more issues there also, since you have to be part of the organization to compete, but it is also very clear that it is in THOSE gyms that they take it to the next level.

[RenDaHai]

You either train martial arts or you don't.

Well, I guess it depends on your definitions.

WuShu doesn't translate to Martial Arts. It is the Art of Wu, and Wu doesn't translate perfectly as 'Martial'. Gong Fu has nothing to do with Martial Arts at all. So actually, no, they don't call it Martial Arts, they call it what it is, WuShu and GongFu. Telling someone 'I don't want to fight' and if that works and they don't fight you, then that is wushu.


Dude, you have a real simple world view. Don't say stuff like N. Shaolin is a dead MA. Its not the style, its the poeple who train it. There are 60,000 students in Shaolin, law of averages says some of them are some real Violent people, you think they can't use it?

Its a mentality your arguing against, don't stereotype the styles. Its just makes you sound wrong.

Its fair to argue about the mentality behind trainers, its a reasonable argument, but its been done and finished.

[Lucas]

China will produce an international MMA champ eventually.... it won't look like Wing Chun. Not because they refined it so much. It's because it will be MMA: kick boxing with wrestling and Judo.



If i remember correctly Yao is going to defend his title soon. he started martial arts in shuai jiao. with his shuai jiao he went 47-3 in various wrestling championships. you can look it up...so if he does become an international champ, he'll have his shuai jiao to thank.

yes he is a brown belt in bjj, yes he has trained muay thai. doesnt take away from the fact that HE claims shuai jiao as his primary style.

[Lucas]

That last line is funny because I just got over jet jag. In the past 3 weeks I;ve been in Hannover, Germany, New York City and Las Vegas. Next month I got to Shanghai:)

dude im jealous :mad:

[Lucas]

Sure, but as I mentioned to Ray, when people in TCMA want to be fighters their choice is ( typically and right now):
Join a Sanda gym
Join a "kickboxing" gym
Join a MMA gym

Of course there are more issues there also, since you have to be part of the organization to compete, but it is also very clear that it is in THOSE gyms that they take it to the next level.

you must get off on ***** slapping the correct and making it your bang maid

[Peaceful Orchid]

No one goes:
I want to be a pro fighter, I am joining a wing chun school.


What they do is go:

I'm joining a (insert any myriad of wing chun or other non-fighting type schools) because i want to be a "street" fighter.

[RenDaHai]

Not everyone needs to be a fighter. The problem almost always starts when the non-fighters tell the fighters what "works" when it's pretty obvious they have no clue what really works and what doesn't work.

True that. But its just as big a problem when a sports fighter tells someone what they do will work in the street because it works in the ring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you must get off on ***** slapping the correct and making it your bang maid

Well, we been around the block right?
We know that things are never so black and white as Ray makes them but we also know that there is an element of truth to what he says about the current state of many TCMA.
I just don't think that matters to the vast majority of people doing those MA.
When I was in TKD, it was a sport and going into the Olympics and and there was much noise and popularity and you knwo what?
The guys that competed were still the ones that were competing BEFORE the fame and are still the ones competing after it.
The majority couldn't care less.
They came 3X week, did their gradings, got their belts and whatever.
Those of us that trained 3 hours a day, they bled and broke bones, guess what?
We could and still can use that TKS to kick butt because that was how we trained it.
I have a buddy of mine that has been doing MMA for 2 years (this will be his 3rd) and he treats it like "his TKD".
Sure he gets a more well rounded training and such but guess what?
He is not and will never be a fighter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What they do is go:

I'm joining a (insert any myriad of wing chun or other non-fighting type schools) because i want to be a "street" fighter.

An idiot like that deserves all they get.

[Peaceful Orchid]

True that. But its just as big a problem when a sports fighter tells someone what they do will work in the street because it works in the ring.

A huge number of things that work in the ring will work on the street. Generally, "ring fighters" have far more "street" experience than do the guys who "train for the street" and know much more about what works there than the guys who are "street training."

[sanjuro_ronin]

True that. But its just as big a problem when a sports fighter tells someone what they do will work in the street because it works in the ring.

Everything I have learned and done in the ring has worked on the street, everything.
WHY?
Because on the street the other guy is NOT ( Typically) a guy that trains hours every day to beat up people, but some bully that THINKS he can fight because he has NEVER met a trained fighter before.

[Peaceful Orchid]

An idiot like that deserves all they get.

I give you Exhibit A


True that. But its just as big a problem when a sports fighter tells someone what they do will work in the street because it works in the ring.

[wenshu]

That last line is funny because I just got over jet jag. In the past 3 weeks I;ve been in Hannover, Germany, New York City and Las Vegas. Next month I got to Shanghai:)

It's a shame that someone so well traveled is so obstinately incapable of seeing past their own one dimensional prejudices.

[Golden Arms]

The following styles are dead martial arts:
Wing Chun
Hung Gar (all of the Gar family styles)
S. Mantis
N. Mantis
N. Shaolin
S. Shaolin
Bak Mei
Taiji
Ba Gua
Hsing-I
Dog boxing
Five animals
Dragon style
Lama Pai
Chinese sword
Leopard Kung Fu
Monkey Kung Fu
All the animal kung fus
White Crane
Drunken fist

... I thought it was just easier to say TCMA since the what, 3 Shui JIao and San Da guys claim kickboxing.

Anyway WuShu lives and prospers.

You sure like to talk like you know a lot...

Just so other posters know how much of an authority you are on fighting, why don't you publicly state your record again?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I give you Exhibit A

That is NOT what you were talking about and if you read Ren's posts you see he is not one to "join a MA school to be a street fighter".

The fact that TCMA have as much misconceptions about sport combat that sport combat guys have about TCMA is quite obvious.

[wenshu]

An idiot like that deserves all they get.


True that. But its just as big a problem when a sports fighter tells someone what they do will work in the street because it works in the ring.


I give you Exhibit A

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round. . .

[wenshu]

The fact that TCMA have as much misconceptions about sport combat that sport combat guys have about TCMA is quite obvious.

I try and have as many misconceptions about both.

[Yao Sing]

Generally, "ring fighters" have far more "street" experience than do the guys who "train for the street" and know much more about what works there than the guys who are "street training."

Since we're always admonished for not having video or some documentation to back our claims I would like to ask if you have any to support your above statements. Any studies done, anecdotal evidence, maybe name some names of guys who "train for the street" that have no "street" experience. Fair is fair.

See, your comment is what's known as a "strawman" argument.

[Peaceful Orchid]

That is NOT what you were talking about and if you read Ren's posts you see he is not one to "join a MA school to be a street fighter".

The fact that TCMA have as much misconceptions about sport combat that sport combat guys have about TCMA is quite obvious.


Sounds like he is. Otherwise, he would understand that ring techniques also work in the street.

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by Peaceful Orchid View Post
Generally, "ring fighters" have far more "street" experience than do the guys who "train for the street" and know much more about what works there than the guys who are "street training."

Thats the difference between self defense and sport fighting. People who train for the street are just your ordinary people who have lives (marriage, kids, grand kids) and want something to keep in shape as well as deal with a mugging, an assault, or what have you while sport fighters usually do so looking for a paycheck. to get that fame. and do be recognized as a professional sport fighter.

When there are SO many people who love the martial arts and don't want to pursue a "FIGHTING" career, who are just happy enough knowing they might have an advantage over cruel, crazy, or just plain out violent people, why is this wrong? why should they receive unfair labels?

I don't see kung fu instructors claiming to be great fighters. yeah maybe they claim the style is deadly, but again i haven't seen anyone claiming to be great fighters. It seems that only the MMA jockers, wannabe's, and mouth boxers that insult TCMA and their teachers assume this claim.

I just don't get why pick on people who don't do what you do? People running around claiming to be fraud detectors...only ONE part of TCMA has to do with fighting. that is fighting. but students of TCMA get to do much more than just fight. I still don't see them claiming to be schools of Fighting Champions.

anyone with half of a half brain knows the only way to be good at sport fighting is go to a sport fighting school. I'm positive that one would see that not too many people want to fight....most want to be fans of sport fighting. just because someone doesn't devote their lives and careers to sport fighting is no reason to constantly pick on TCMA which will be around long after the Sport fighting fad fades away.

remember this, regardless of how many people think they're great fighters, there are just as many who would rather put a bullet in your head rather than fight.

[Peaceful Orchid]

When there are SO many people who love the martial arts and don't want to pursue a "FIGHTING" career, who are just happy enough knowing they might have an advantage over cruel, crazy, or just plain out violent people, why is this wrong? why should they receive unfair labels?

It's not wrong. What's wrong is them trying to tell the fighters that what they do somehow works "on the street" but is too deadly to be used in the ring.


I don't see kung fu instructors claiming to be great fighters. yeah maybe they claim the style is deadly, but again i haven't seen anyone claiming to be great fighters.

Claiming the "deadly style" is just as bad as claiming the "great fighter" label.

[Drake]

It's not wrong. What's wrong is them trying to tell the fighters that what they do somehow only works "on the street."



Claiming the "deadly style" is just as bad as claiming the "great fighter" label.

http://www.ultimatesportstalk.com/MMA/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/rex_kwon_do_11.jpg

[Peaceful Orchid]

http://www.ultimatesportstalk.com/MMA/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/rex_kwon_do_11.jpg

Oh, it's You Know Who showing his deadly wrist takedown again.

[hskwarrior]

It's not wrong. What's wrong is them trying to tell the fighters that what they do somehow only works "on the street."

the only difference between the two is controlled safe environment vs the opposite. what works in the street will work in the ring. just in the street being slammed into the concrete may have different consequences than being slammed on a mat.

there are many people who have talked about fighting but never been in one.

[Pork Chop]

while sport fighters usually do so looking for a paycheck. to get that fame. and do be recognized as a professional sport fighter.

Most of the guys I know that train and compete don't think that way.
They just want to see what they can do and test themselves.
Yes, there are some pro fighters who just want a paycheck, but while in-ring glory can be nice, the number of glory-hounds that I've come across have been few and far between.


Just because someone doesn't devote their lives and careers to sport fighting is no reason to constantly pick on TCMA which will be around long after the Sport fighting fad fades away.

Not to nit-pick, but if the ancient greeks are to be believed; sport fighting has existed long before martial arts as civilian self-defense.

[Peaceful Orchid]

the only difference between the two is controlled safe environment vs the opposite.

Here's a prime example of the problem with non-sport fighters trying to tell sport fighters what is what.

Full contact fighting such as MMA, boxing, or Muay Thai is far from safe. If you'd ever once in your life been back in the dressing room during these types of events you'd never call them safe.

[hskwarrior]

Not to nit-pick, but if the ancient greeks are to be believed; sport fighting has existed long before martial arts as civilian self-defense.

It is silly to think only the greeks new how to fight.


Full contact fighting such as MMA, boxing, or Muay Thai is far from safe. If you'd ever once in your life been back in the dressing room during these types of events you'd never call them safe.

uhhhh....ok :confused: how many MMA fights are done on cement?

[Peaceful Orchid]

Most of the guys I know that train and compete don't think that way.
They just want to see what they can do and test themselves.
Yes, there are some pro fighters who just want a paycheck, but while in-ring glory can be nice, the number of glory-hounds that I've come across have been few and far between.



Not to nit-pick, but if the ancient greeks are to be believed; sport fighting has existed long before martial arts as civilian self-defense.

Quoted for the truth it tells.

[Peaceful Orchid]

It is silly to think only the greeks new how to fight.


What's silly is to think that combative sports are a "fad".

[Pork Chop]

It is silly to think only the greeks new how to fight.


They were just some of the first to have schools/gymnasiums opened for the teaching of martial arts.

[hskwarrior]

Quoted for the truth it tells.

so you know most of the guys he knows? LOL:eek:

[Peaceful Orchid]

so you know most of the guys he knows? LOL:eek:

No, but I've been around combative sports fighters most of my life. My experience has been with them has been exactly the same as what he was saying.

[hskwarrior]

What's silly is to think that combative sports are a "fad".

MMA is a fad, just like everything else. something else with take center stage eventually.


No, but I've been around combative sports fighters most of my life. My experience has been with them has been exactly the same as what he was saying.

so how old are you? and if this true, you should have some kind of name in that circle right? there's no reason for you to be anonymous right? tell us who you are.

[Peaceful Orchid]

MMA is a fad, just like everything else. something else with take center stage eventually.

Unfortunately, based on how fast it is growing and the marketing muscle behind it, it's probably going to have one heck of a long run.

[Drake]

I think the bigger issue is... this is a KUNG FU FORUM. For ****s' sake, it says it in the URL and virtually everywhere on the screen. There's no shortage of MMA sites out there, and even this forum was nice enough to create a place for MMA people.

It's like someone into rifles intentionally going to an archery website to **** with people. It's trolling in its most literal form. Do you see me going to an MMA forum mocking those *******s and telling them to get with 21st century and carry a god **** gun? NO. Because it is RUDE and ****ing INCONSIDERATE.

I didn't come here to talk about MMA, and I am sick and ****ing tired of every kung fu discussion here being derailed by inconsiderate, egotistical *******s who have made it their mission to harass others trying to have a conversation.

If I want to read about MMA, I'll go to an MMA website. You can also go there and discuss MMA. Otherwise, **** off.

Rant complete.

[hskwarrior]

Unfortunately, based on how fast it is growing and the marketing muscle behind it, it's probably going to have one heck of a long run.

its possible. but i still believe it will give way to something else. when the new and more exciting shows its face, it will happen. it will then take its place like everyone else.


It's like someone into rifles intentionally going to an archery website to **** with people. It's trolling in its most literal form. Do you see me going to an MMA forum mocking those *******s and telling them to get with 21st century and carry a god **** gun? NO. Because it is RUDE and ****ing INCONSIDERATE.

i think there should be a rule that any MMA jockers coming here to insult TCMA for the mere pleasure of doing so should be blocked or banned from visiting this site. nothing is beneficial with them around.

[Peaceful Orchid]

so how old are you? and if this true, you should have some kind of name in that circle right? there's no reason for you to be anonymous right? tell us who you are.

I'm just an old guy who used to do sambo and wrestling with "hooks" way before most people had ever seen a real submission before.

[Yao Sing]

Not to nit-pick, but if the ancient greeks are to be believed; sport fighting has existed long before martial arts as civilian self-defense.

Not to nit-pick but how do you date the origin of civilian self-defense? I'm serious, just "debating". It seems logical that "real" fighting would preceed "sport" fighting. By "real" I mean trying to injure/kill.


Full contact fighting such as MMA, boxing, or Muay Thai is far from safe. If you'd ever once in your life been back in the dressing room during these types of events you'd never call them safe.

Same could be said about professional wrestling and their fights are choreographed. :)


MMA is a fad, just like everything else. something else with take center stage eventually.

I still say CMA and more "elaborate" moves will eventually find their way into UFC (and MMA in general) as the crowds scream for better entertainment. I suspect that eventually it COULD possibly end up like Pro Wrestling and aim more for entertainment.

The general public is fairly "dumbed down" so I could see a Martial Art version of Pro Wrestling becoming more popular than UFC.

Since I live in an entertainment area I actually thought about doing that and providing a live CMA show when I had my school in the Kissimmee (attractions) area.

[Peaceful Orchid]

I think the bigger issue is... this is a KUNG FU FORUM. For ****s' sake, it says it in the URL and virtually everywhere on the screen. There's no shortage of MMA sites out there, and even this forum was nice enough to create a place for MMA people.

It's like someone into rifles intentionally going to an archery website to **** with people. It's trolling in its most literal form. Do you see me going to an MMA forum mocking those *******s and telling them to get with 21st century and carry a god **** gun? NO. Because it is RUDE and ****ing INCONSIDERATE.

I didn't come here to talk about MMA, and I am sick and ****ing tired of every kung fu discussion here being derailed by inconsiderate, egotistical *******s who have made it their mission to harass others trying to have a conversation.

If I want to read about MMA, I'll go to an MMA website. You can also go there and discuss MMA. Otherwise, **** off.

Rant complete.

I'm old and I do mostly tai chi now. I originally started reading here to learn more about the miscellaneous kung fu topics. I never talked much about those because, other than my tai chi and a few training session with some other CMA styles, I don't have much experience.

I only started posting more when I started seeing posts from people claiming things about which they obviously had no or very little experience.

[hskwarrior]

I'm just an old guy who used to do sambo and wrestling with "hooks" way before most people had ever seen a real submission before.

I'm just an old guy myself. I come from a family of martial artists and street fighters. i started my fighting young. I used to do karate, judo, tai mantis, boxing, streetfights, but for 3 decades of my life i've been a Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut guy. :D

I'm 44 this year. and YOU?

[Peaceful Orchid]

i think there should be a rule that any MMA jockers coming here to insult TCMA for the mere pleasure of doing so should be blocked or banned from visiting this site. nothing is beneficial with them around.

I think there should be a rule against anyone who has clearly not done "sport fighting" to be banned when they start insulting sport fighting for having rules and trying to tell them what would work on the deadly street when they clearly have not a clue.

[hskwarrior]

I'm old and I do mostly tai chi now. I originally started reading here to learn more about the miscellaneous kung fu topics. I never talked much about those because, other than my tai chi and a few training session with some other CMA styles, I don't have much experience.

I only started posting more when I started seeing posts from people claiming things about which they obviously had no or very little experience.
Reply With Quote

I've never really dealt with you, but i appreciate your cordiality....


I think there should be a rule against anyone who has clearly not done "sport fighting" to be banned when they start insulting sport fighting for having rules and trying to tell them what would work on the deadly street when they clearly have not a clue.

Oh i AGREE. if only this was one of those places, it just may work. sorry. this is a KUNG FU forum.....not a sport fighting forum and unsure if there will ever be a merging of the two..

[RenDaHai]

Sounds like he is. Otherwise, he would understand that ring techniques also work in the street.

Shiiiiiitttt, I wasn't saying they didn't, I was reversing the logic of your statement. It doesn't work in the street 'because' it works in the ring. It works 'cause your the guy who can make it work. It works cause you have the mind to make it happen. Not because its a technique that works in the ring. And yeah, there are many things that are a good idea in the ring which are not in reality.

I'd been to all kinds of classes..... then after being in the real thing I don't think any of them prepared me any better than any of the others.

[hskwarrior]

It works 'cause your the guy who can make it work.

That right there is the only true answer.

[Yao Sing]

I'm just an old guy who used to do sambo and wrestling with "hooks" way before most people had ever seen a real submission before.

In another thread (or was it this one?) you said you play Tai Chi. Is it fair to paint all Tai Chi guys as hippies that can't fight?

That's the kind of broad strokes you paint all the CMA guys with when you have no clue what they know and/or can do in any given situation (street, ring or other).

Take the blinders off already.

[Drake]

Just did a quick Google search on MMA forums. 10,900,000 hits. Go to any one of those to discuss the merits of MMA. I'm sure they'll be glad to have you.

[Peaceful Orchid]

I've never really dealt with you, but i appreciate your cordiality....



Oh i AGREE. if only this was one of those places, it just may work. sorry. this is a KUNG FU forum.....not a sport fighting forum and unsure if there will ever be a merging of the two..

Then if the kung fu people don't want the "sport crowd" ruining things all they have to do is keep the subject on kung fu and off of sport.

Seems like lately almost every other topic started buy a kung fu guy has something to do with comparing kung fu to MMA.

[hskwarrior]

Then if the kung fu people don't want the "sport crowd" ruining things all they have to do is keep the subject on kung fu and off of sport.

Seems like lately almost every other topic started buy a kung fu guy has something to do with comparing kung fu to MMA.

I would never go to YOUR house and tell you how to parent YOUR children. simple as that.

[Yao Sing]

Look at how many views this forum gets compared to how many actually post something. Basically coming on here and saying CMA is crap and THE ONLY way to learn to fight is in an MMA gym.

That's a false statement and we're not going to sit here quietly and let that poison the minds of the few looking for info about CMA before they make a choice on which school to attend.

[Peaceful Orchid]

In another thread (or was it this one?) you said you play Tai Chi. Is it fair to paint all Tai Chi guys as hippies that can't fight?

It's been my experience so far that the tai chi people I have come in contact with don't know much about combative applications and are simply doing it for their health.


That's the kind of broad strokes you paint all the CMA guys with when you have no clue what they know and/or can do in any given situation (street, ring or other)..

I don't claim to know what all or most CMA guys can do or not do. What I do know is what works and what doesn't work when it comes to full force grappling applications.

It's very obvious when people talk about grappling applications of which they really have no clue as was exposed and admitted in my exchange with the supposed "respected" TCMA teacher here yesterday.

[hskwarrior]

It's been my experience so far that the tai chi people I have come in contact with don't know much about combative applications and are simply doing it for their health.

maybe because most do tai chi for health. could be huh?


I don't claim to know what all or most CMA guys can do or not do. What I do know is what works and what doesn't work when it comes to full force grappling applications.

what about FULL FORCE stand up fighting? if you want to grapple, talk about grappling, inquire about it, why not go to a grappling forum? Why go to mcdonalds and ask for a whopper?

[Peaceful Orchid]

I would never go to YOUR house and tell you how to parent YOUR children. simple as that.

No, but if you came to my house and I started telling you how to raise your children or disciplining them myself, you'd probably have a few choice words to say to me.

[hskwarrior]

No, but if you came to my house and I started telling you how to raise your children or disciplining them myself, you'd probably have a few choice words to say to me.

but you are in my house right now. and of course i would. but I don't comment too much on things i'm not fully knowledeable about outside of my street fighting experience and what kung fu works for me.

[Peaceful Orchid]

maybe because most do tai chi for health. could be huh??

Yeah, and that's fine. That's why I do it. It's a great movement therapy.



what about FULL FORCE stand up fighting? if you want to grapple, talk about grappling, inquire about it, why not go to a grappling forum? Why go to mcdonalds and ask for a whopper?

As I said, I generally just read to learn about kung fu related stuff.

I don't post much unless someone else starts posting about grappling or sometimes full-contact fighting.

[Lucas]

Seems like lately almost every other topic started buy a kung fu guy has something to do with comparing kung fu to MMA.

or you get things like how i started a thread just to inquire about chinese qin na and the submissive qualites or the lack there of...i never once brought up mma, though somehow it turned into that.

i think mainly this is because mma is the giant elephant in the room. mma is primarily the standard by which modern martial arts are judged. i have nothing wrong with that personally.

[wenshu]

Where are all the Sumo UFC fighters? That's what I want to know.

If Big Country Row can sit on someone's face for 18 minutes and a bunch of redneck sheep call that elite then I want to see what some chankonabe slurping fat boy can do in the cage.

[hskwarrior]

As I said, I generally just read to learn about kung fu related stuff.

I don't post much unless someone else starts posting about grappling or sometimes full-contact fighting.

OH.....sorry. did i miss your questions about kung fu techniques and only read what we are discussing right now?

what exactly would you like to know about kung fu itself?

[hskwarrior]

chankonabe

whats that? :confused:

[MightyB]

What I do know is what works and what doesn't work when it comes to full force grappling applications.

:confused:

and you know this how???

[Peaceful Orchid]

but you are in my house right now. and of course i would. but I don't comment too much on things i'm not fully knowledeable about outside of my street fighting experience and what kung fu works for me.

I'm pretty sure this is a kung fu forum. I do a form of kung fu so this is as much my house as it is yours.

Stick to kung fu and I will simply keep quiet and read and learn.

When you start posting about my field of expertise, you'll then hear from me about it.

[MightyB]

I'm pretty sure this is a kung fu forum. I do a form of kung fu so this is as much my house as it is yours.

Stick to kung fu and I will simply keep quiet and read and learn.

When you start posting about my field of expertise, you'll then hear from me about it.

Still wondering???? Where do you get your vast grappling expertise?

[Peaceful Orchid]

:confused:

and you know this how???

I started grappling probably before you were born. I was doing sambo and hook wrestling long before anyone outside of Brazil had ever heard of BJJ. I was doing Sambo tourneys when it was sanctioned by the AAU and most people has never heard of a knee bar or heel hook.

[MightyB]

I started grappling probably before you were born. I was doing sambo and hook wrestling long before anyone outside of Brazil had ever heard of BJJ.

Really now... I doubt that. HS wrestling isn't grappling, nor is it Sambo.

[Drake]

I'm going to go ahead and write this off as trolling.

[Peaceful Orchid]

OH.....sorry. did i miss your questions about kung fu techniques and only read what we are discussing right now?

what exactly would you like to know about kung fu itself?

I don't have specific questions. I simply come here to read and explore.

[hskwarrior]

I'm pretty sure this is a kung fu forum. I do a form of kung fu so this is as much my house as it is yours.

Stick to kung fu and I will simply keep quiet and read and learn.

When you start posting about my field of expertise, you'll then hear from me about it.

UH, for one, we don't know you and since you won't give out your name, there's no way to verify if you actually do have "EXPERTISE" or just very knowledgeable.


I don't have specific questions. I simply come here to read and explore.

STALKER LOL

[MightyB]

I'm going to go ahead and write this off as trolling.

True Dat - if he had all that vast experience - he'd be confident in posting his name, maybe a clip or two, maybe where he supposedly trains. :)

My guess, MMA fanboy. Like Ralek, but without the classic one liners and whit.

[Yao Sing]

It's been my experience so far that the tai chi people I have come in contact with don't know much about combative applications and are simply doing it for their health.

That's the answer I expected. What I was referring to was not TC combat applicability itself but judging a book by it's cover, something that's done here quite often.

One of the guys I trained with in Tai Chi is mainly known as a Tai Chi guy but actually he fought full contact bouts in his youth. Like you, anyone giving him grief for being a "hippie Tai Chi player that can't fight" will be in for a surprise.

Stop the straw man and broad brush arguments and I'm sure tempers will settle.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Really now... I doubt that. HS wrestling isn't grappling, nor is it Sambo.

WTF kind of stupid comment is that?

High school wrestling isn't grappling? WTF is it then if it's not grappling?

Of course it isn't sambo. Who said it was?

What's wrong with you?

[Yao Sing]

Where are all the Sumo UFC fighters? That's what I want to know.

That was handled in UFC #1.

Man, you need a super fast computer and Internet connection to keep up with this thread. :eek:

[Drake]

WTF kind of stupid comment is that?

High school wrestling isn't grappling? WTF is it then if it's not grappling?

Of course it isn't sambo. Who said it was?

What's wrong with you?

There's more to kung fu, or in your alleged field of Tai Chi, than movements. You seem to be missing about 85% of the point. You are wrapped up, pointlessly, in mechanics and caught up in popular opinion. Had you truly understood the point of kung fu, you would not have come here and behaved so rudely.

You are embarassing yourself, and you are too proud of yourself to admit it.

[MightyB]

WTF kind of stupid comment is that?

High school wrestling isn't grappling? WTF is it then if it's not grappling?

Of course it isn't sambo. Who said it was?

What's wrong with you?

because a two bit washout jock strap boy on a class D wrastl'n squad don't know jack shiite about grappling. And that's what I suspect you are... maybe... you probably don't even have that much experience. Meh - I do Judo, compete regularly in Judo and grappling tourneys (at least twice a year... sometimes more), my name's easy to find, you'll find that I post clips on youtube...

You ... hide, and then act like you know something. That means

TROLL and F.O.S. (full o shiite)

[ShaolinDan]

How many threads do we need to argue "TCMA vs. MMA"? Have we said everything that we want to say. Is there anything new that we have not yet covered?

Do we run out of meaningful discussion subjects in this forum? :(

"Once an evil deed is done it never ends. It goes on. And it will go on forever. Bwahahahaha."

[Pork Chop]

Not to nit-pick but how do you date the origin of civilian self-defense? I'm serious, just "debating". It seems logical that "real" fighting would preceed "sport" fighting. By "real" I mean trying to injure/kill.


In a nutshell, my premise is that military arts pre-dated sport arts, which in turn pre-dated civilian self defense arts.

Looked up Kalaripayattu, thinking it pre-dated chinese kung fu.
http://www.yourdiscovery.com/martialarts/southasia/kalaripayatta/index.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalaripayattu
Found that the wiki said that it started between the 9th and 12th century AD.
This appears to be one of the first civilian arts.

Wrestling as a sport goes back over 15,000 years; with the oldest cave drawings in France dating to that time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling

Wrestling as a sport was popular in Egypt as far back as 2300BC
http://wysinger.homestead.com/nubiansport.html

Greek wrestling was added to the olympics in 700BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_wrestling
Minoan art has depicted youths boxing dating back to 1500BC (which is ironically believed to be the first use of gloves) and Greek Boxing was added to the olympics in 688BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_boxing
Pankration was added to the olympics in 648 BC and might be much older than that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration

If you know of any "reality"-based civilian martial arts that were not sports that are older, I'd be very curious to read about them.

[MightyB]

The old Chinese dude who's book pic that started this recent ranting and nonsense... IMO His locks were a bit too loose.

Just saying. :D

[hskwarrior]

If you know of any "reality"-based civilian martial arts that were not sports that are older, I'd be very curious to read about them.

the age of an art isn't the case at hand. what really matters from the top to the bottom and all the way around, the individual makes the martial art. if you can't fight, you shouldn't be fighting. period.

[Pork Chop]

the age of an art isn't the case at hand. what really matters from the top to the bottom and all the way around, the individual makes the martial art. if you can't fight, you shouldn't be fighting. period.

Actually, that was in response to your claim that sport fighting was a fad. MMA may be riding a high of popularity that may some day wane; just like boxing was much more popular in the 50s than it is today. But these types of sports have been around since the dawn of time and really aren't going anywhere.

[hskwarrior]

Actually, that was in response to your claim that sport fighting was a fad. MMA may be riding a high of popularity that may some day wane; just like boxing was much more popular in the 50s than it is today. But these types of sports have been around since the dawn of time and really aren't going anywhere.

i don't disagree bro. but when the next bigger thing comes along MMA in the spotlight will lose is glamour and make way. thats all im saying.

[Drake]

i don't disagree bro. but when the next bigger thing comes along MMA in the spotlight will lose is glamour and make way. thats all im saying.

Next big thing will be chainsaws and sledgehammers.

[hskwarrior]

Next big thing will be chainsaws and sledgehammers.

or Tai Chi!!!!!! LMAO

Just thinking bout it, the people who hide behind a computer to troll around must have one very sad life to pretend so much.

[SavvySavage]

because a two bit washout jock strap boy on a class D wrastl'n squad don't know jack shiite about grappling. And that's what I suspect you are... maybe... you probably don't even have that much experience. Meh - I do Judo, compete regularly in Judo and grappling tourneys (at least twice a year... sometimes more), my name's easy to find, you'll find that I post clips on youtube...

You ... hide, and then act like you know something. That means

TROLL and F.O.S. (full o shiite)

Unless this is the twilight zone hs wrestling is grappling. My friends who study bjj don't like fighting against conditioned wrestlers.

Just my 2 cents. Everyone continue.

[Drake]

http://www.daveandthomas.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/southpark.jpg

[Peaceful Orchid]

Meh - I do Judo, compete regularly in Judo and grappling tourneys (at least twice a year... sometimes more),

Sure ya do.

I noticed you had no comments about how to counter any of those "loose" submissions when the guy asked for them.

Or maybe you just don't like technical conversations and would rather just talk cr@p.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Unless this is the twilight zone hs wrestling is grappling. My friends who study bjj don't like fighting against conditioned wrestlers.

Just my 2 cents. Everyone continue.

Definitely the twilight zone with some pretty clueless people who claim to be grapplers yet think wrestling is not grappling.

Too funny.

[Lucas]

all things considered i think peaceful orchid knows his technical aspects of submisson work and grappling in general, at least his technical posts elude to such

[Lucas]

not saying you got the most tact tho :p

[Syn7]

there is a subforum for MMA

all MMA related topics discussed there.

I like some of the MMA gears but not all of them

glove, shorts, etc

I really like things loose and a bit over size

but sometimes, no matter what

you sweat and got statics or electrical shock from MMA wares

cotton is the best

me think.

:)

You training on a shag carpet or what? I can honestly say that static charge has never been a big issue. Sure I get zapped here and there but it`s not distracting or disturbing in any meaningful way other than a good laugh here and there when somebody over-reacts.

[MightyB]

Unless this is the twilight zone hs wrestling is grappling. My friends who study bjj don't like fighting against conditioned wrestlers.

Just my 2 cents. Everyone continue.

Agreed! I play the old card when they're better than me... because I'm like their dad's age in some cases. Plus you can do the "instructor" trick, which is... when they get you in something like an Americana, say "stop, here let me show you how you can apply that better". ;)

[MightyB]

all things considered i think peaceful orchid knows his technical aspects of submisson work and grappling in general, at least his technical posts elude to such

Didn't see the post - basics: Telephone any choke attempts... don't panic, telephone and wait for them to tire or give up the position. I don't even attempt any escape from a sunk Americana or Kimura - too dangerous. Any straight arm crush, turn to get parallel to the attack or pillow the attackers leg. The old dude gave space in a lot of the picks - in his scarf - you could turn into him, go parallel, get a knee under, roll him past your head. His sleeper is deep, but deep half guard is an option, his guillotine - a lot of space, step in to the side, ride him down, escape to side control... etc, etc, etc... :rolleyes:

DB

[Lucas]

Didn't see the post - basics: Telephone any choke attempts... don't panic, telephone and wait for them to tire or give up the position. I don't even attempt any escape from a sunk Americana or Kimura - too dangerous. Any straight arm crush, turn to get parallel to the attack or pillow the attackers leg. The old dude gave space in a lot of the picks - in his scarf - you could turn into him, go parallel, get a knee under, roll him past your head. His sleeper is deep, but deep half guard is an option, his guillotine - a lot of space, step in to the side, ride him down, escape to side control... etc, etc, etc... :rolleyes:

DB

oh a wise guy huh ;) wheres all these smarty pants coming from? :eek:

[Syn7]

That last line is funny because I just got over jet jag. In the past 3 weeks I;ve been in Hannover, Germany, New York City and Las Vegas. Next month I got to Shanghai:)

I don`t understand why you come here? You say you are successful and you act like you have things to do yet you find the time to come to a Kung Fu website and argue that Kung Fu is dead?

What`s your motivation? Are you here just to validate some sense of superiority or what? Seriously, honest question. I`m just sitting here thinking that if I felt what you feel I couldn't be bothered to read anything on this site let alone sign up and participate.

So what is your motivation? Are you trying to save the ignorant masses from being scammed by the fraudulent sifu wannabees? or are you here for your own ego and some deep seeded need to be right which sends you into conflict? Do you argue with people very often? have you thought of speaking to a professional? I could give you some referrals if you need help with that.

[hskwarrior]

I don`t understand why you come here? You say you are successful and you act like you have things to do yet you find the time to come to a Kung Fu website and argue that Kung Fu is dead?

This is his fantasy.....LOL


Are you here just to validate some sense of superiority or what?

superior people don't need to bark that loud. they already KNOW they are superior. remember in high school the kid who says he is always getting laid is the one who isn't gettin none. LOL

[Lucas]

I could give you some referrals if you need help with that.

hook it up im batsh!t crazy!

[Syn7]

hook it up im batsh!t crazy!

He can be helped. You Cannot!

[Yao Sing]

I don`t understand why you come here? You say you are successful and you act like you have things to do yet you find the time to come to a Kung Fu website and argue that Kung Fu is dead?

As I recall Ray showed up when he was still in CMA but looking for more fight contests. Not really any CMA bashing back then, in fact he seemed (to me) to be alluding to being the CMA fighter in MMA that he currently claims doesn't exist.

It wasn't until he started spending all his time with the MMA crowd that he started saying crap about CMA, teacher and training.

Someone fed him a line of BS and he bought into it HL&S.

[Yao Sing]

Actually I called up some of Ray's old posts and he apparently used a different name (Bak Mei) previous to using his real name so I guess he was here probably before me.

Anyhow you wouldn't think it's the same person. He definitely turned into a jerk when he switched from CMA to MMA.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8417&page=2

[Gru Bianca]

All of these UFC SHUI JIAO fighters that are flooding my mind.... are they of the coach ross kick boxing, wrestling, MMA type of gyms. Or are they of the form, lion dancing, kwan do spinning kwoons?

oh wait, Shui Jiao is a sport, mostly derived of Judo and Sambo players and nothing to do with Wing CHun, Taiji, Ba Gua, etc, etc, etc.

Let me rephrase my statement then so I'll be deemed more accurate:

The following styles are dead martial arts:
Wing Chun
Hung Gar (all of the Gar family styles)
S. Mantis
N. Mantis
N. Shaolin
S. Shaolin
Bak Mei
Taiji
Ba Gua
Hsing-I
Dog boxing
Five animals
Dragon style
Lama Pai
Chinese sword
Leopard Kung Fu
Monkey Kung Fu
All the animal kung fus
White Crane
Drunken fist

... I thought it was just easier to say TCMA since the what, 3 Shui JIao and San Da guys claim kickboxing.

Anyway WuShu lives and prospers.

Listen, I've a proposal for you, since you are so sure about your claim of TCMA being dead, and since you claim to be a writer, why don't you embark in a world wide jeourny seeking out all this "dead" TCMA teachers and write about that? Be clear that to well judge you have to limit yourself to stand up and see how easy it is for you to teach them a lesson. And since you are at that why don't you start with the Hop Gar school of Sifu Chris Heintzman since you claim Lama is dead. It shouldn't be too far from you

[Syn7]

Actually I called up some of Ray's old posts and he apparently used a different name (Bak Mei) previous to using his real name so I guess he was here probably before me.

Anyhow you wouldn't think it's the same person. He definitely turned into a jerk when he switched from CMA to MMA.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8417&page=2

This cat did a huge 180 ay!!! Talking bout old school masters breaking wrists before and how it doesn't work now. It seems like he swallowed a bit of the CMA bullsh1t back then. Like he had a mysticized view of Kung Fu. Those kinds of people are susceptible to all sorts of manipulation.

[hskwarrior]

Listen, I've a proposal for you, since you are so sure about your claim of TCMA being dead, and since you claim to be a writer, why don't you embark in a world wide jeourny seeking out all this "dead" TCMA teachers and write about that? Be clear that to well judge you have to limit yourself to stand up and see how easy it is for you to teach them a lesson. And since you are at that why don't you start with the Hop Gar school of Sifu Chris Heintzman since you claim Lama is dead. It shouldn't be too far from you

ya noticed how he left out Choy Lee Fut....even HE knows we like to fight :p

[Yao Sing]

Anybody else notice how dead the other forum/threads are these days?

So to answer the original question I guess

never

:D :D :D :D :D

[Pork Chop]

Anybody else notice how dead the other forum/threads are these days?

So to answer the original question I guess

never

:D :D :D :D :D

I think that's more indicative of threads that aren't broad enough in their appeal.
The threads in the subforms get super specific.
The threads in the general forum don't often strike a chord with me.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

All that means is that the date_joined field in the MYSQL db is NULL. PHP's date() function outputs 0000-00-00 as 1970-01-01.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_time

It is likely because it is an alternate account of a member of the old system that got transferred over here like most of the regulars or there was a bug when they joined and the field was left NULL.

All accounts that transferred over from the old Kung Fu Online forum have dates of 1969, or 1970.

In all that time less than 170 posts? This HAS to be either a long dormant KFM staff account, or a forgotten troll account of a long time member who is banned under his main username..possibly even Ralek/Rolls returning after a long retirement.

[SPJ]

The following styles are dead martial arts:
Wing Chun
Hung Gar (all of the Gar family styles)
S. Mantis
N. Mantis
N. Shaolin
S. Shaolin
Bak Mei
Taiji
Ba Gua
Hsing-I
Dog boxing
Five animals
Dragon style
Lama Pai
Chinese sword
Leopard Kung Fu
Monkey Kung Fu
All the animal kung fus
White Crane
Drunken fist

... I thought it was just easier to say TCMA since the what, 3 Shui JIao and San Da guys claim kickboxing.

Anyway WuShu lives and prospers.

can not speak for all

but ba gua still alive and active among Taiwan's police and special service units.

there are may active qin na and passive qin na

if not solved around wrist, solve it with elbow

if not, solve it with shoulder

if not, solve it with flipping body

if not, solve it with steps such as grinding body

etc etc

lots of counter and counter counter or neutralization or solving

fun fun fun

the reason that drove me to learn ba gua

I first witnessed the demo among police training in late 1970s in high school.

--

some of the moves are not safe or not allowed or illegal in sports venue

thus you do not see them

but there are there.

:)

[doug maverick]

How many threads do we need to argue "TCMA vs. MMA"? Have we said everything that we want to say. Is there anything new that we have not yet covered?

Do we run out of meaningful discussion subjects in this forum? :(

ive been saying this for the last two years...and i know jameson mentioned something about grouping them all into one thread...but they just keep popping up...its ridiculous..

[SavvySavage]

Listen, I've a proposal for you, since you are so sure about your claim of TCMA being dead, and since you claim to be a writer, why don't you embark in a world wide jeourny seeking out all this "dead" TCMA teachers and write about that? Be clear that to well judge you have to limit yourself to stand up and see how easy it is for you to teach them a lesson. And since you are at that why don't you start with the Hop Gar school of Sifu Chris Heintzman since you claim Lama is dead. It shouldn't be too far from you

Why stand up only? That would be a bit unfair. If such a thing were to happen it should be all or nothing.

[David Jamieson]

Next big thing will be chainsaws and sledgehammers.

I'm thinking it will go slowly.

Escrima and Kali for instance. Double stick fighting, some protective armor. Then teh armor will go away and the welts will be ouchy!

people will love it! sick *******s that they are....

[Gru Bianca]

Why stand up only? That would be a bit unfair. If such a thing were to happen it should be all or nothing.

Simply because I believe it is already clear to all that Kung Fu doesn't have a specialized arsenal on the ground at par with Bjj or wtestling. My point is that Kung Fu as a stand up art is as legit as any other art at par with Thai Box and the like.
Ray on the other hand seems very convinced that Kung Fu as a stand up art isn't worth it, hence my proposal.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Rolling, rolling, rolling, keep them doggies rolling !!
:D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Simply because I believe it is already clear to all that Kung Fu doesn't have a specialized arsenal on the ground at par with Bjj or wtestling. My point is that Kung Fu as a stand up art is as legit as any other art at par with Thai Box and the like.
Ray on the other hand seems very convinced that Kung Fu as a stand up art isn't worth it, hence my proposal.

A good Shuai Jiao practioner should be able to use his art against BJJ. The thing is, very few arts are going to be as good at submission work as BJJ. Maybe Sambo, true submission wrestling, a Judoka well schooled and trained in newaza, that type of thing. But since pretty much most BJJ focuses soley on ground work, positions, and subs it's hard to beat them at that game.

However, getting them to the ground should be the test. Most BJJ players don't have the wrestling and take down skills that a wrestler, judoka, or well trained Shuai Jiao guy has, and this should be what is worked. Many BJJ don't like going up against wrestlers. Why?? Because wrestlers control the pace, have great movement, are hard as hell to take down, and take you down in dominant position.

BJJ is a great style and has the best subs , but some of you that think it is the be all grappling style really need to get out more.:rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well said dude.
Shuai Jiao is basically Judo without the newaza ( combat shuai jiao is a beast of another colour BUT still puts less emphaises on ground work then typical Judo).
Combat Shuai Jiao is the MMA of TCMA, just very few people train it.
John Wang being the person to speak to about it on this forum of course.
And FYI:
Grappling arts are THE oldest MA, hopology studies have shown this to be conclusive.
Striking has always been a "secret" part of the ancient MA, typically done with concealed weapons of even "loaded" fists.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Listen, I've a proposal for you, since you are so sure about your claim of TCMA being dead, and since you claim to be a writer, why don't you embark in a world wide jeourny seeking out all this "dead" TCMA teachers and write about that? Be clear that to well judge you have to limit yourself to stand up and see how easy it is for you to teach them a lesson. And since you are at that why don't you start with the Hop Gar school of Sifu Chris Heintzman since you claim Lama is dead. It shouldn't be too far from you

Are you Sifu Chris Heintzman?

If not, why are you throwing out challenges for a crew of fighters to show up at his school and go against them?

[Peaceful Orchid]

Combat Shuai Jiao is the MMA of TCMA,.

No it's not. MMA is full contact fighting with a long history of public matches and plethora of evidence of techniques being used at high levels on fully resisting opponents.

Combat Shuai Jiao has no verifiable documentation of public matches of full contact fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No it's not. MMA is full contact fighting with a long history of public matches and plethora of evidence of techniques being used at high levels on fully resisting opponents.

Combat Shuai Jiao has no verifiable documentation of public matches of full contact fighting.

Don't confuse the Vale tudo matches of yesteryear with the MMA sport of today.
MMA of today does not have a LONG history, but it certailny h as a long enough one.
That said I was not comparing two SPORTS but two METHODS and combat shaui jiao is a complete MA that has striking and clinching and throwing and submissions, just what MMA the combat system is.
As for Combat shuai jiao NOT having and verifiable documentation of public matches of full contact, yes you are right about that.
Of course if you feel the need to see for yourself whether combat shuai jiao is effective or comparable, I am sure that can be arranged.
In the spirit of the MMA "long history" that you seem so fond of.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Don't confuse the Vale tudo matches of yesteryear with the MMA sport of today.

MMA of today is a hybrid/evolution of vale tudo, watered down to make it a more acceptable sport and a more viable business model. But it is still inexorably related to the older form of vale tudo.




That said I was not comparing two SPORTS but two METHODS and combat shaui jiao is a complete MA that has striking and clinching and throwing and submissions, just what MMA the combat system is.

A large part of the METHOD of both vale tude and MMA is to have verifiable, documented matches. That is a large part of what makes it effective.



Of course if you feel the need to see for yourself whether combat shuai jiao is effective or comparable, I am sure that can be arranged.
In the spirit of the MMA "long history" that you seem so fond of.

How might that be arranged?

[sanjuro_ronin]

MMA of today is a hybrid/evolution of vale tudo, watered down to make it a more acceptable sport and a more viable business model. But it is still inexorably related to the older form of vale tudo.




A large part of the METHOD of both vale tude and MMA is to have verifiable, documented matches. That is a large part of what makes it effective.




How might that be arranged?

Agreed.
As for the arrangement, whereabouts are you located?
Contray to what some like to think, TCMA are very open ( or should be if they have nothing to hide) to people coming in and getting a taste for their type of training.
You won't need to actually fight anyone else you want to but from what I gather you have been around the block enough to be able to get an idea of the system simply by doing some training with them.
Of course if you want to test them I am sure they can accomodate you.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Agreed.
As for the arrangement, whereabouts are you located?
Contray to what some like to think, TCMA are very open ( or should be if they have nothing to hide) to people coming in and getting a taste for their type of training.
You won't need to actually fight anyone else you want to but from what I gather you have been around the block enough to be able to get an idea of the system simply by doing some training with them.
Of course if you want to test them I am sure they can accomodate you.

The only way to test a system is to have full contact fights, which is pretty much what vale tudo/MMA is all about and is what makes it different from "combat" Shuai Jiao.

[YouKnowWho]

The only way to test a system is to have full contact fights, which is pretty much what vale tudo/MMA is all about and is what makes it different from "combat" Shuai Jiao.
The term "combat Shuai Chiao" is just a different name for "Sanshou" and "Sanda". The only difference is the "combat Shuai Chiao" has much looser "3 seconds holding rule (If throw is not achieved within 3 seconds, the referee has to break the clinching)".

Do the following clips contain enough "full contact fight" for you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NRlJPOycMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o0MZ8LU5a0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn_vGp4qG_s

These guys train 100% "combat Shuai Chiao". No boxing, no MT, no kickboxing, no wrestling, no Judo. They only train Shuai Chiao and longfist (some Taiji and mantis). They do cross train BJJ but the ground game is not required in the "combat Shuai Chiao" tournament.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only way to test a system is to have full contact fights, which is pretty much what vale tudo/MMA is all about and is what makes it different from "combat" Shuai Jiao.

Well then, I am sure that you can be accomodated.
Whereabouts are you?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do the following clips contain enough "full contact fight" for you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NRlJPOycMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o0MZ8LU5a0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn_vGp4qG_s

These guys train 100% "combat Shuai Chiao". No boxing, no MT, no kickboxing, no wrestling, no Judo. They only train Shuai Chiao and longfist (some Taiji and mantis). They do cross train BJJ but the ground game is not required in the "combat Shuai Chiao" tournament. The term "combat Shuai Chiao" is just a different name for "Sanshou and Sanda.

I am sure that when he tells us where he is that we can find somewhere from him to find out for himself.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Well then, I am sure that you can be accomodated.
Whereabouts are you?

Are you are representative of "combat" Shuai Jiao?

[Peaceful Orchid]

Do the following clips contain enough "full contact fight" for you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NRlJPOycMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o0MZ8LU5a0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn_vGp4qG_s

These guys train 100% "combat Shuai Chiao". No boxing, no MT, no kickboxing, no wrestling, no Judo. They only train Shuai Chiao and longfist (some Taiji and mantis). They do cross train BJJ but the ground game is not required in the "combat Shuai Chiao" tournament. The term "combat Shuai Chiao" is just a different name for "Sanshou and Sanda.


I am sure that when he tells us where he is that we can find somewhere from him to find out for himself.

I'm confused. Originally you were saying combat Shuai Chiao was somehow different than something like Sanshou and that it was more like MMA (which would include continuous ground fighting). Those clips has no ground fighting (which is a big part of MMA).

Now you are using a quote with clips showing it being the same as Sanshou.

So which is it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you are representative of "combat" Shuai Jiao?

Nope, but you can direct your inquiry to John Wang, the poster you know as youknowwho.

I am just a moderator trying to keep things going and keeping a thread productive.
And giving you the benefit of the doubt.

[Pork Chop]

I'm confused. Originally you were saying combat Shuai Chiao was somehow different than something like Sanshou.

Now you are using a quote and showing clips of it being the same as Sanshou?

So which is it?

Sanshou is the ruleset of the competition; Combat Shuai Chiao is the school of training.

YouKnowWho is the local representative of Combat Shuai Chiao.

[YouKnowWho]

Those clips has no ground fighting (which is a big part of MMA).
The "ground fight" is not used in Sanshou and Sanda format. All of my guys train "ground fight" today. One of my guys even won the 2nd place in local "grappling tournament".

This is how "combat Shuai Chiao" is trained in US.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spc1f3VWxrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ccEMs-Mx8c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UxUpBSiI1c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9SCD4iFt4c

[Peaceful Orchid]

Sanshou is the ruleset of the competition; Combat Shuai Chiao is the school of training.

YouKnowWho is the local representative of Combat Shuai Chiao.

Fair enough.

So, if that's the case, why is a school of training that supposedly trains in a method akin to MMA competing something that is more related to something like Muay Thai rather than doing MMA which should be more representative of what they train?

[Peaceful Orchid]

The "ground fight" is not used in Sanshou and Sanda format. All of my guys train "ground fight". One of my guy even won the 2nd place in local "grappling tournament".

This is how "combat Shuai Chiao" is trained in US.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spc1f3VWxrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ccEMs-Mx8c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UxUpBSiI1c

Which would make it more along the lines of something like Muay Thai and less along the lines of MMA.

[Peaceful Orchid]

The "ground fight" is not used in Sanshou and Sanda format. All of my guys train "ground fight" today. One of my guys even won the 2nd place in local "grappling tournament".

This is how "combat Shuai Chiao" is trained in US.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spc1f3VWxrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ccEMs-Mx8c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UxUpBSiI1c

Which would naturally lead to the question: Since you supposedly have guys going live against opponents in competitions, why are you not using footage of the techniques they are using in live settings to demonstrate what works instead of showing questionable techniques against compliant partners?

[Peaceful Orchid]

All of my guys train "ground fight" today. One of my guys even won the 2nd place in local "grappling tournament".

Awesome. Congratulations to him.

Could you post the list of the upcoming grappling competitions and the divisions your team will be competing in?

[YouKnowWho]

Which would naturally lead to the question: Since you supposedly have guys going live against opponents in competitions, why are you not using footage of the techniques they are using in live settings to demonstrate what works instead of showing questionable techniques against compliant partners.

That "wrist lock" clip was for teaching. During the "development" stage, your opponent will give you all the opportunity that you need (cooperative opponent). After you have learned the skill, you will have to go through "testing" stage. During the "testing" stage, your opponent will not give you any opportunity at all (non-cooperative opponent).

A simple example will be, if you lay down on the ground, there is no way that your opponent can develop his "hip throw" by using you as training partner.

If you look at any Judo, wrestling, MT, ... teaching clips online, you will always see cooperative opponent in those clips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSwW7YRwvRk

TCMA does separate:

- partner training (develop),
- sparring/wrestling (test),
- solo drill (polish),
- equipment training (enhance).

[Peaceful Orchid]

Do the following clips contain enough "full contact fight" for you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NRlJPOycMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o0MZ8LU5a0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn_vGp4qG_s

These guys train 100% "combat Shuai Chiao". No boxing, no MT, no kickboxing, no wrestling, no Judo. They only train Shuai Chiao and longfist (some Taiji and mantis). They do cross train BJJ but the ground game is not required in the "combat Shuai Chiao" tournament. The term "combat Shuai Chiao" is just a different name for "Sanshou and Sanda.

Which of those fighters in those clips do you train?

[Peaceful Orchid]

That "wrist lock" clip was for teaching. During the "development" stage, your opponent will give you all the opportunity that you need (cooperative opponent). After you have learned the skill, you will have to go through "testing" stage. During the "testing" stage, your opponent will not give you any opportunity at all (non-cooperative opponent).

Which would naturally lead to another question: Why would the development stage include techniques that even the instructor had never seen work for real in a live setting?

[Peaceful Orchid]

A simple example will be, if you lay down on the ground, there is no way that your opponent can develop his "hip throw" by using you as training partner.

However, hip throws have a proven record of effectiveness. Wrist lock takedowns do not.

[YouKnowWho]

Which of those fighters in those clips do you train?
My guys all have body tattoo (BMF). :D


Which would naturally lead to another question: Why would the development stage include techniques that even the instructor had never seen work for real in a live setting?
I have not seen wrist lock working on the mat because most people are not stupid enough to grab on their opponent's wrist and refuse to let it go.

I have seen the following finger lock worked. If you have "common sense", you will know in your heart that it will work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH23u2k7QF8

The reason is simple. Some people will be stupid enough to "push on your chest". This is why the "small joint multiplication" is not allowed in most of the wrestling rules.

[David Jamieson]

mma today is NOTHING like vale tudo.

holy crap.

The no holds barred (nhb) was the inception point for modern mma.

Vale tudo was no gloves, no jock no mouthguard and anything went including fish hooks, eye gouges, elbows to the back of the head and the back, no tapping etc etc etc.

TO claim that mma is "like" that is...well, goofy in my opinion.
You don't honestly think people are dumb enough to elevate today's sport fighting to that kind of violence do you?

UFC and Strikforce pretty much define what modern mma is.

Vale Tudo is a step away from stabbing each other to death. If it had knives, that is exactly what would happen. Way beyond what we see now with timed rounds, the 32 rules , tapping etc etc.

man, people talk crap!

[YouKnowWho]

Which would naturally lead to another question: Why would the development stage include techniques that even the instructor had never seen work for real in a live setting?
There are about

- 10 different punches,
- 20 different kicks,
- 50 different joint locks,
- 400 different throws,
- ??? different ground skills.

we just don't have time to master all skills in our life time.

The wrist lock is easy to counter by:

- bend the elbow,
- raise the elbow,
- turn your body.

In TCMA, it's called "三把腕子(San Ba Wan Zi) - 3 wrist locks combo". You have to know 3 different ways to lock your opponent's wrist to make it work. Again, most people are not stupid enough to grab on their opponent's wrist and refuse to let it go in combat.

[Pork Chop]

So, if that's the case, why is a school of training that supposedly trains in a method akin to MMA competing something that is more related to something like Muay Thai rather than doing MMA which should be more representative of what they train?

2 reasons:
1. Shuai Chiao may do ground training, but the bread & butter that they're famous for is takedowns. Sanshou is not muay thai, takedowns score.
2. Shuai Chiao is a chinese art and sanshou is a chinese competition format.

You could go compete in a BJJ tournament as a Judoka, but it's probably just easier to find a Judo competition.

[YouKnowWho]

Could you post the list of the upcoming grappling competitions and the divisions your team will be competing in?
The "grappling competition" is done on individual level and not by the ACSCA (American Combat Shuai Chiao Association) level. The ACSCA does not encourage or discourage the integration of the "ground game". Since most people who trained "combat Shuai Chiao" already had BJJ or wrestling in their previous background (one of my guys even had 22 years in calligiate and freestyle wrestling and some coaching). The ground game was brought in without ACSCA officially involved.

David C. K. Lin will bring his guys to compete Shuai Chiao and Sanshou/Sanda in China this coming June. My guys will joint in his team this time.

[Peaceful Orchid]

2 reasons:
1. Shuai Chiao may do ground training, but the bread & butter that they're famous for is takedowns. Sanshou is not muay thai, takedowns score.
2. Shuai Chiao is a chinese art and sanshou is a chinese competition format.

You could go compete in a BJJ tournament as a Judoka, but it's probably just easier to find a Judo competition.

So it seems kind of disingenuous to call it the MMA of CMA.

[Peaceful Orchid]

mma today is NOTHING like vale tudo.

holy crap.

The no holds barred (nhb) was the inception point for modern mma.

Vale tudo was no gloves, no jock no mouthguard and anything went including fish hooks, eye gouges, elbows to the back of the head and the back, no tapping etc etc etc.

TO claim that mma is "like" that is...well, goofy in my opinion.
You don't honestly think people are dumb enough to elevate today's sport fighting to that kind of violence do you?

UFC and Strikforce pretty much define what modern mma is.

Vale Tudo is a step away from stabbing each other to death. If it had knives, that is exactly what would happen. Way beyond what we see now with timed rounds, the 32 rules , tapping etc etc.

man, people talk crap!

If you are responding to my post, it seems like you are the one who talks uninformed crap, considering the fact that I didn't say MMA was like Vale Tudo. I said it was a watered down version that has evolved for marketing, business, and public acceptance reasons.

[Peaceful Orchid]

The "grappling competition" is done on individual level and not by the ACSCA (American Combat Shuai Chiao Association) level. The ACSCA does not encourage or discourage the integration of the "ground game". Since most people who trained "combat Shuai Chiao" already had BJJ or wrestling in their previous background, the ground game was brought in without ACSCA involved.

So basically, when you said this:


All of my guys train "ground fight" today. One of my guys even won the 2nd place in local "grappling tournament".

You really meant that one of the guys who trains with you and was already trained in the ground game before he trained with went on his own to a local grappling tourney to compete.

[David Jamieson]

Hey look everyone! It's Japanese Nick Cage!

http://i.imgur.com/lWEUa.jpg

I mean, if we're going to talk silly crap...

kf..is that you? :p

[David Jamieson]

If you are responding to my post, it seems like you are the one who talks uninformed crap, considering the fact that I didn't say MMA was like Vale Tudo. I said it was a watered down version that has evolved for marketing, business, and public acceptance reasons.

Think much of yourself? The tack you were going with it is what I was talking about and you're still wrong.

NHB is where american or modern mma comes form.

Vale Tudo was at best, AT BEST somewhat inspirational to it.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Think much of yourself? The tack you were going with it is what I was talking about and you're still wrong.

NHB is where american or modern mma comes form.

Vale Tudo was at best, AT BEST somewhat inspirational to it.

The first three UFCs (which was known as NHB back then) were the same rulesets as the original Vale Tudo matches. Current MMA is a direct evolution of those early UFC's.

Brazilian Vale Tudo >>> American/Asian/European NHB >>> Current MMA

[Drake]

There's Superman... but where's Clark Kent? He must be out getting orange juice... freshly squeezed.

[JamesC]

So...


MMA vs TMA



Also...


Chuck Norris

[sanjuro_ronin]

There's Superman... but where's Clark Kent? He must be out getting orange juice... freshly squeezed.

he's never around when...hey...wait a minute !

[sanjuro_ronin]

So...


MMA vs TMA



Also...


Chuck Norris

Chuck Norris has been mentioned.
Thread is over.
Internet is beaten !

[Lucas]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--t_Jxdbw_S0/TXN0JNZz80I/AAAAAAAAAGs/9ERgXJnBQts/s350/superman%2Bdrunk.jpg

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Chuck Norris has been mentioned.
Thread is over.
Internet is beaten !

http://thenormanomicon.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/chucknorriscountry.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs44/f/2009/114/f/4/Chuck_Norris_demotivational_by_randomgibberish.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.funnymotivationalposters.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Chuck-Norris.jpg

[wenshu]

Who the **** hangs out on a discussion board all day just to hate on the main topic?

Seriously, WHO DOES THIS? What is wrong with you? Were you molested by Wing Chun? Does reliving the memory of losing your sexual innocence to Wing Chun leave you with extreme PTSD so much so that just the thought of a wooden dummy renders you paralyzed with fear, rocking back and forth on the floor in the fetal position sucking your thumb?

If you told me that then maybe I could understand the desire to hang out on a discussion board all day for the sole purpose of disdain trolling the central topic.

I frequent a few discussion forums of varying topics and I've never seen anything like this. Its not even like it's exciting to troll here. "Oh, wow, three people think that eye gouges work in a street fight. Heerrrrrnnnggg I better tell them off, that'll validate my daily pathetic disaster of a life."

I'm going to go hang out on a videogame forum because I hate videogames.

Or, hay guys, **** FLYFISHING MAN, THAT **** SUCKS. THEY PUT THE FISH BACK THAT'S NOT REAL FISHING! Lets go spend all day trolling the flyfishing forum. WOOOOOOOOOOO.

****ing pathetic.

[David Jamieson]

Carlos Norris.

Let's go back to calling him Carlos.

Also, why is he wearing a Marines uni? He was AirForce wasn't he?

(also a tang soo do traditional martial artist) :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/mon-motivators-20.jpg?w=500&h=625

[David Jamieson]

@wenshu - It's probably Knife Fighter back for more. lol. :p

neurotic obsession and all that...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Who the **** hangs out on a discussion board all day just to hate on the main topic?

Seriously, WHO DOES THIS? What is wrong with you? Were you molested by Wing Chun? Does reliving the memory of losing your sexual innocence to Wing Chun leave you with extreme PTSD so much so that just the thought of a wooden dummy renders you paralyzed with fear, rocking back and forth on the floor in the fetal position sucking your thumb?

If you told me that then maybe I could understand the desire to hang out on a discussion board all day for the sole purpose of disdain trolling the central topic.

I frequent a few discussion forums of varying topics and I've never seen anything like this. Its not even like it's exciting to troll here. "Oh, wow, three people think that eye gouges work in a street fight. Heerrrrrnnnggg I better tell them off, that'll validate my daily pathetic disaster of a life."

I'm going to go hang out on a videogame forum because I hate videogames.

Or, hay guys, **** FLYFISHING MAN, THAT **** SUCKS. THEY PUT THE FISH BACK THAT'S NOT REAL FISHING! Lets go spend all day trolling the flyfishing forum. WOOOOOOOOOOO.

****ing pathetic.

Not sure what you are trying to say...

[Iron_Eagle_76]

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/mon-motivators-20.jpg?w=500&h=625

My faith in humanity is somewhat restored!!:)

[David Jamieson]

Not sure what you are trying to say...

Yeah, that wasn't clear at all.

Name Names! Point fingers! Testify!!

[wenshu]

Not sure what you are trying to say...

I don't want to talk about it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr143/jamielowndes/couture.jpg