retraining your martial art for fighting.

[doug maverick]

this isnt a tma v mma thread...this is a thread about adjusting your martial art for fighting... how many of you do pad and bag work, that isnt just kickboxing? but actualy practicing the movements from your form? i practice xing yi chuan, and have so for the last 6 years..my sifu taught way different, he asked me did i want to learn xing yi to teach to fight or for health? i said to fight but i would like to learn it for health as well. so he started me off for the first two months doing nei gung, san ti and these basic xing yi exercises. then i learned the five fist, but he wouldnt let me move on to learn the next fist until i could accurately apply the one ive been working on...so it took me a while to really learn it... wasnt until i started doing heavy bag work at home actually using the techniques, pi chuan, beng chuan etc...that i started realizing how they can be applied in a real life situation.


once i learned all five fist, my sifu use to make me do alot of bag work using all the five fist but in combos like boxing, learning how to flow from one move to the next, he always told me that xing yi was relentless and the fighter didnt stop, you cant thing of what is the next move or application(he never taught me applications) you just have to react to the situation.


ok there is the back story...but the question is how many people train this way in kung fu? learning to actually use what you've been training all along for? ive totally eliminated forms from my training...i just do basics from different styles ive studied, like chain punching, and kicking from wing chun, the ten hands from hung ga, stepping movements from lung ying, and pole training from lung ying, and then i do the five fist, and some of the animals i know, then with my body all tired i do about 40 mins(with breaks) of bag and if i have a friend pad work. and some sparring.

whats your regimen? what do you train kung fu for?

[dirtyrat]

these days i get together with a couple a buddies. one of them is a taekwondo/hapkido practitioner but also had practice hung gar, and we practice at his place. we don't practice forms.

after a brief warm-up, we practice breakfalls.

then my friend has us do some taekwondo/kickboxing combo drills on the pads. we may do some light sparring.

next we practice locks that common to all our styles.

and finally we practice some self defense scenarios (we have rubber knives, clubs & gun). we all add our twist from our respective styles.

[David Jamieson]

I'm not of the mind that you have to retrain so much as you have to train to fight. How is this done? Simulated fighting aka sparring. Flow drills, fire and return drills, actually rounds.

gear up and use your stuff.

a word to the wise, you WILL sustain injuries the more you ramp up training and the more realistic and pressurized you take it.

It is good to mix it up with guys with different backgrounds.

You should at least once take it full blast to help you really understand wtf is going on in that dynamic.

But you don't have to change your training so much as take it into that aspect.

So get yourself another like minded individual and get to it. :)

[Dragonzbane76]

By spending time on all areas of fighting equally in a resistant environment.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

By spending time on all areas of fighting equally in a resistant environment.

This. There is no reason to make things more complicated than they are. The Kung Fu techniques you practice should be done on a heavy bag, on mitts, and on an opponent sparring. Your grappling and Shuai Jiao should be done on an opponent practicing technique than with freestyle grappling or randori.

If it seems too intricate, complicated, pretty, and ineffective, chances are, it is.

[David Jamieson]

This. There is no reason to make things more complicated than they are. The Kung Fu techniques you practice should be done on a heavy bag, on mitts, and on an opponent sparring. Your grappling and Shuai Jiao should be done on an opponent practicing technique than with freestyle grappling or randori.

If it seems too intricate, complicated, pretty, and ineffective, chances are, it is.

yes. low percentage stuff can be kept at. Any knife you choose to hone out of bluntness will be a good weapon.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This. There is no reason to make things more complicated than they are. The Kung Fu techniques you practice should be done on a heavy bag, on mitts, and on an opponent sparring. Your grappling and Shuai Jiao should be done on an opponent practicing technique than with freestyle grappling or randori.

If it seems too intricate, complicated, pretty, and ineffective, chances are, it is.

Take your common sense somewhere else, we're peddling crazy over here !!
:D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Take your common sense somewhere else, we're peddling crazy over here !!
:D

LMAO, it's good to see not much has changed here!!:p

[Pork Chop]

Bounced around a bit, so I'll break it up.

Jow Ga:
We did a lot of pad & bag work in class anyway.
We spent a lot of time with push kicks (thrusting through the heel vs using the ball like muay thai), as well as sidekicks & round kicks.

We did a fair amount of partner work for throws & kick catches leading to throws.

I used to do a lot of gwa-sow-charp on the bag; I'll still break it out occasionally.
There are a couple of other jow ga combos I used to do as well:
gwa-pow-charp
double kup

Also in Jow Ga there are a few combos in the forms that are basically just flashy versions of basic stuff:
grab with lead, punch with rear
sidestep/angle, parry with lead, punch with rear

*I think Jow Ga actually switches the terminology, so I'm going with the more common terminology:
gwa = backfist - either falling, rising, or horizontal
sow = overhand/haymaker
charp = lead straight that you really sit on
pow = upper cut
kup = hook

================================================== ===================

Mantis

When I did it, we only hit stuff on Saturdays. That was also our sparring day.
We did a lot of low round kick, mid round kicks, push kicks, side kicks.
Remember doing a lot of Ng-Lo-Choy (hook, grab, punch) and even a bit of overhands (thought it was fan che, but might've also been sow choy).
We did a lot of breakfalls at one point, which i continued at a shuai chiao school.

================================================== ====================

Xingyi

I've done the 5 elements on the bags & with partners.
Didn't string them together as much as Maverick described.
We did a good amount of twisting push kick.
I used this stuff in sparring much later on in san shou.

================================================== =====================

Taiji

When I trained we did a lot of form, a bit of partner work, and free-form push hands.
Later on, in san shou, we picked out a lot of the throws as counters to attacks - like the wave hands through clouds kick catch, snake creeps down fireman's carry, and some push kick scoops. Brush knee push can also break down to a simple lead parry - rear punch counter.
Still use a lot of it.

[Shaolin]

what do you train kung fu for?

This


http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/156325_1574120551854_1200760709_31358245_3767484_n .jpg

[SavvySavage]

Just as an aside:
A guy I know just graduated from the New York Police academy. He said thy they regularly sparred pretty full contact resulting in many minor injuries. The NYPD arguable have the toughest job as opposed to other cops. The fact that they make everyone spar(men against women, big vs small, two people are randomly picked) is telling in that they want their officers prepared for the real deal. Doing soft compliant technique work may be part of the equation but a small part(this is in reference to striking as grappling is more complicated IMO)
If the nypd thought form work best prepared you for working the streets they'd do that a lot instead of sparring.

Just saying.

In responses to the original thread I would add a lot conditioning deprecate from forms work. Stamina, speed, strength/power, etc. I've heard people say that conditioning should be done outside of class to save time for partner work. This assumes everyone works out outside of class. Students need to be directed in how to condition themselves properly and this can only be done by giving them exercise drills in class. Then they know what specifically to do and can eventually make up their own drills.

Even people that work out at the gym, only focusing on maximal strength, need direction as well.

[Drake]

We had so many injuries from Army combatives, that we started tracking them. A LOT of people were getting hurt.

I've had busted lips, bloodied noses, black eyes, bruises, hyperextended elbow, and a dude drop his knee into the side of mine on the mat.

I've walked away a few times looking like I've been mugged. But... I love the stuff...

[David Jamieson]

We had so many injuries from Army combatives, that we started tracking them. A LOT of people were getting hurt.

I've had busted lips, bloodied noses, black eyes, bruises, hyperextended elbow, and a dude drop his knee into the side of mine on the mat.

I've walked away a few times looking like I've been mugged. But... I love the stuff...

In training or comp?

In training it's bordering on unacceptable.
In comp? Stop complaining, that's your goal to get there isn't it?

oh wait, you're not complaining....freak. :p

[Lee Chiang Po]

If you really want to test your stuff, start a fight club. Don't train with any of the members, and don't tell them what you do. Don't pick and choose who you fight, but draw lots to see who fights who. That will more represent the street fighting factors. He might be smaller or larger, stronger or weaker, taller or shorter, and he might have a martial skill or not. You then have to make your stuff work on him or not. Wear a mouth piece only and go at it. Rules of fight should only be you can not kill someone deliberately or break a bone deliberately. Other than that, go at it like your life depends on it. Anything short of that and I don't care how serious you are, you are not fighting. I used to go to the boys club and spar with the guys involved with the golden gloves. I got paid for it too. I would make it hard for him to hit me, and make him work so I couldn't hit him. We didn't try to end it with a knock out. That was not the purpose of sparring. It helped them with timing mostly. That is all sparring does. But in a real fight, you have to stop playing if you want to see what you really have.

[Yao Sing]

I don't recall ever sparring in any of the places I trained where fighters were selected by size or weight. You got who you got and that was it

We also did things like freestyle multiple attackers until you were down and could no longer fight back, class lines up and goes at you one at a time, class circles you and teacher nods to whoever to attack you (from any direction) whether you're done with current opponent or not. Also, for testing, matches weren't stopped for injuries for street applicability.

Although I did get stopped and hollered at for bleeding on my teacher's floor during one test when the big guy broke my nose. :)

[doug maverick]

the idea here is to train your ma to a point where you dont freeze during a fighting situation and just revert to a punching and kicking pattern...another thing is you cant be afraid to take a hit...i remember when i was a kid my friends and i use started this little fight club inmy friends back yard, all of us had different back rounds...and i use to lose alot because i would back up alot because i was afraid to get hit, but my backing up resulted in....me getting hit, lol. but once i adjusted to it i started to win more, and started to be able react under pressure, actually using what i know...

nowadays, i spar every once and a while and i hit the bag everyday...im no pro fighter and have no ambitions to be, i dont hang out in situations where i would get into a confrontation...also im 6'3" 250 black guy..so people pretty much leave me alone..lol. but if you dont keep your tools sharp they will dull... removing forms was the best thing i ever did..HOWEVER i think you should still learn them when you begin. but like my sifu said to me, its all about what you are learning it for. if its to teach then you have to learn the breath of the style, if its to fight then you have to take from it what works for you and get rid of what doesnt.

[David Jamieson]

You are destined to be reborn as a 90 lb white woman.

sorry, it's the cards you drew man... :p

[bawang]

also im 6'3" 250 black guy

you are have honor. i trust you.

[doug maverick]

You are destined to be reborn as a 90 lb white woman.

sorry, it's the cards you drew man... :p

lmao!!!

http://therepublika.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/mila_kunis_hot_girl_white.jpg as long as i look like that its all good.

[hskwarrior]

Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut has a very limited amount of forms and was created that way because they all trained to fight to the death in revolution after revolution from 1851 to the present. Why did i mention this? Because the system i teach was truly designed for combat. That the system wasn't designed for the betterment of our health.

Yeah, we used pads, focus mitts, and do bag work. We use them for development of individual strikes that are strictly from our system. We also use them for the development of the combinations found within our forms. Our forms combo's aren't made up of guess work but are based off of personal experience passed down from generation to generation.

The single regular strikes we work on are:


Chop Choy's (lead and reverse)
Sow Choys (aimed at your head, side of neck or back of neck, including striking limbs.)
Upper cuts (long and short)
Kwa Choy (horizontal, vertical and diagonal and spinning)
Kup Choy (Stamping fist: vertical and horizontal)
Elbows (all directions)
Knee's: (Rising and double)

*** All combo's contain these single strikes.***

We have a good number of open palm techniques as well. I don't place much stock in joint locks too much, but we have them. Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut doesn't like to kick too much but we have a few good kicks, nothing too fancy.

Under my sifu, we sparred ALOT. We were encouraged to spar at 50-75% while gloveless, other times we used gloves. my sifu always wanted us to spar realistically as opposed to KUNG FU sparring. We did alot of 2 man spar forms where once the form was completely memorized we executed our techniques full out and it was an unwritten rule that if you got hit, don't get mad at them, it wasn't their fault you got hit. i still keep that tradition alive today with my own students.

While most of my students aren't interested in pursuing a fighting career they still train to handle what ever comes at them where ever they may be at the moment. we often spar in our street clothes to keep the level of realism. the only time we wear uniforms is during street performances.

I'm not a big fan of too many animal hands but i DO love the Tiger Claw. I never used it to scratch like i've seen so many others do. i use it to rip and tear at what ever flesh i come into contact with be it your forearm, bicep, tricep, neck, or whatever.

I get my students to spar and we've even had a few styles come through especially wing chun to spar. i found it hilarious when the wing chunners would call out to their classmate what to do against CLF. Then my students let em have it CLF STYLE and they weren't able to handle it. Part of this is because i tell my students "unless they legitimately stop or drop you, keep fighting and do your thang". Outside of my club, my students are involved with other styles including MMA/BJJ who are meeting together to test out their fighting methods. This i'm proud of.....not once have any of my students ever come back to me and say "sifu, that sh1t you taught us doesn't work"....not once!

but like i've stated before, my students aren't interested in a career in sport fighting. they go to college and are working to get their degree's. One of my students is going to school to be a doctor or a surgeon or something like that which is the reason he doesn't want to sport fight but he does love to fight.

I do post some stuff on video on my youtube channel, but its always just the surface of what i teach. most of those videos are recorded the same day i taught them a new technique. I like to keep our more advanced stuff quiet and never record those. I come from a school that preferred to stay in the shadows where you would never see what we trained or used until it was too late.

I've had students whose lives were on the line and effectively used our gung fu. I've also had students who moved on to muay thai and enter their first official matches and win their first time out. all in all, i will always love my style and highly appreciate the knowledge my sifu passed down to me. sorry if i went all left field....