Defense against Upper Cut

[Yoshiyahu]

In your respective Lineages How do you defend against an upper cut?


Are there any drills, applications from the three forms or san sik techniques that you utilize to defend against Upper cut?

i believe the cutting energy of Bil Sau is best used for Round Punches like Hooks. But what technique is effective against a Uppercut?

Please share your opinion?

[Chadderz]

You can slip it, or even better you can lean back. It's that simple really :D

[k gledhill]

Punch the guy in the face.

[Phil Redmond]

I'm on someone else's computer now and it isn't allowing me to view the url so I can copy and paste. :confused:
Anyway, if you go to my sifupr youtube channel and search for:
Dan Chi Sao App, and Sifu Phillip Redmond teaching Dan chi sao application you can see "one" of the techs we use. There's a pro boxer in the background making sure we "keep it real".

[jimhalliwell]

For me im not thinking how to avoid an uppercut at all!! if the fight is on at this range im knocking teeth out until its over

Jim:D

[kung fu fighter]

jum sao or gan sao with pivoting depending on the hight the uppercut comes at, but you should be attacking him if you're already that close to the opponent.

[JPinAZ]

IMO, asking what technique works against 'X' technique is really missing the boat on what WCK is all about.

[wingchunIan]

one of the reasons for rear weighting is to keep teh head back and reduce vulnerability to upper cuts. In addition if your elbows are in and down an uppercut shouldn't be able to get through, and as stated elsewhere at the range for an uppercut you should be striking.

[trubblman]

IMO, asking what technique works against 'X' technique is really missing the boat on what WCK is all about.

Too bad they dont have thumbs up in this forum. This reply shows that writer gets IT.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Wing Chun has an uppercut if that is what you want to call it, but it is not like that used in boxing. The uppercut people usually speak of is a boxing punch that is used to get in under an opponents defenses. The boxing stance begs for it, and it can be fairly useful in that kind of fighting. It is not so effective used that way against a Wing Chun fighter because he will not usually bend down into the punch like a boxer might. It is used by Chunners when fighting boxers and others that use the boxing stance.

[GlennR]

Punch the guy in the face.

And kick him in the nuts ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

Good strategy intercept him via the centerline i like it.


And kick him in the nuts ;)


No No Lee..im mean defense against an uppercut...not actually applying a Upper cut like from the chum kiu form to split the lip...But actually how does your lineage defend against an uppercut...Like for instance your bridging the gap. As you start striking or attacking your opponent slips a hook and then an uppercut...How do you defend the upper cut coming at you while your attacking. If you just keep striking him and ignore his counter strikes your gonna eat one...Why stand there an trade licks with a boxer. he is bobbing and weaving to get off an uppercut or hook while your attempting to land a strike!


Wing Chun has an uppercut if that is what you want to call it, but it is not like that used in boxing. The uppercut people usually speak of is a boxing punch that is used to get in under an opponents defenses. The boxing stance begs for it, and it can be fairly useful in that kind of fighting. It is not so effective used that way against a Wing Chun fighter because he will not usually bend down into the punch like a boxer might. It is used by Chunners when fighting boxers and others that use the boxing stance.


I respect your response Ian...But from experience I find Even with your elbows down and in an uppercut can still slip through unless you make a adjustment while your attacking. In fighting your not going to be stand there with your wu sau guards out while the other guy is throwing hooks and crosses at you. You will be attacking...part of WC is attack an defend simultaneously...what im asking is while you are fighting what basic self defense techniques do you practice against an upper cut to minimize your risk as you gain entry!



one of the reasons for rear weighting is to keep teh head back and reduce vulnerability to upper cuts. In addition if your elbows are in and down an uppercut shouldn't be able to get through, and as stated elsewhere at the range for an uppercut you should be striking.

So JPin what is WC all about?


IMO, asking what technique works against 'X' technique is really missing the boat on what WCK is all about.

Thanks fighter there only three or four of you who actually give solid view points...i also believe as you do...we share similiar ideas when it comes to defending against an uppercut.


jum sao or gan sao with pivoting depending on the hight the uppercut comes at, but you should be attacking him if you're already that close to the opponent.

lol..what about a good defensive boxer who is good at countering, weaving and bobbing an rising with an uppercut as gets back into posistion...Usually a boxer aint gonna stand there and let you rain down him teeth knocking fist...what about in sparring...if your fighter is good at throwing fast hooks and deceptive uppercuts. Whats a technique that allows you to defend and attack simultaneously against an uppercut?


For me im not thinking how to avoid an uppercut at all!! if the fight is on at this range im knocking teeth out until its over

Jim:D

[Niersun]

Lift your left knee up, put your hands in a crane position. Jump and kick him in the balls with your right foot.

[Yoshiyahu]

Lift your left knee up, put your hands in a crane position. Jump and kick him in the balls with your right foot.

Sounds to complicated and whimsical if you asked me...Why not just jum da down the center!

[Phil Redmond]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YsawCZ-MaA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4dzwaBeKxs

[sanjuro_ronin]

IMO, asking what technique works against 'X' technique is really missing the boat on what WCK is all about.

The correct.

[k gledhill]

The correct.

agree....like making a battle plan...

[Yoshiyahu]

IMO, asking what technique works against 'X' technique is really missing the boat on what WCK is all about.

So why do we drill techniques at all?

why drill pak sau or tan sau or bong sau or bil sau against certain techniques?

Why develop muscle memory?

[wingchunIan]

[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1157801]

I respect your response Ian...But from experience I find Even with your elbows down and in an uppercut can still slip through unless you make a adjustment while your attacking. In fighting your not going to be stand there with your wu sau guards out while the other guy is throwing hooks and crosses at you. You will be attacking...part of WC is attack an defend simultaneously...what im asking is while you are fighting what basic self defense techniques do you practice against an upper cut to minimize your risk as you gain entry!

QUOTE]

Yoshi, if you punch at the correct range your elbows will be down and your rear hand should be in position. Try it against someone trying to upper cut properly. Its not about peek aboo can I tap you with a heat seeking hand. Pad up and get someone to throw meaty punches at you. Uppercuts will not get through if you punch properly. If you stand in front of the guy though you can expect a rough trade, with hooks and crosses so I'd suggest angling as well. The simplest answers are the most effective.

[Yoshiyahu]

i agree with your take on angling...but still even when your punching someone hooks are thrown and variety attacks coming at you. An different punches slip in?



[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1157801]

I respect your response Ian...But from experience I find Even with your elbows down and in an uppercut can still slip through unless you make a adjustment while your attacking. In fighting your not going to be stand there with your wu sau guards out while the other guy is throwing hooks and crosses at you. You will be attacking...part of WC is attack an defend simultaneously...what im asking is while you are fighting what basic self defense techniques do you practice against an upper cut to minimize your risk as you gain entry!

QUOTE]

Yoshi, if you punch at the correct range your elbows will be down and your rear hand should be in position. Try it against someone trying to upper cut properly. Its not about peek aboo can I tap you with a heat seeking hand. Pad up and get someone to throw meaty punches at you. Uppercuts will not get through if you punch properly. If you stand in front of the guy though you can expect a rough trade, with hooks and crosses so I'd suggest angling as well. The simplest answers are the most effective.

[LFJ]

Does not being a WC practitioner disqualify me from contributing to this topic? I train Songshan Shaolin, but many of our structures and techniques are similar/identical, as I've seen, believe it or not.

We have a common technique called gongbu tuizhang (bow step pushing palm). It is a two part move and can be used as a defense against a tight-range uppercut, or in any situation where you're close to the opponent with their forearms almost vertical, as in a tight boxing style uppercut. You can even do it by stuffing their guard and going from there.

The technique is this; say a left uppercut is incoming, we use our right forearm to block on the outside of the opponents arm in a structure resembling WC's fuk sau. The wrist turns inward to either hook around the opponent's wrist, or cover the fist from above for added protection.

But the crux of the technique lies in turning the waist to the left while using the forearm/elbow to push against the outside of the opponent's arm, around the elbow or higher. Since the forearm can pivot at the elbow, it is important to push at the elbow or higher on the upper arm. Since it is directly connected to the shoulder, the turn will cause the opponent's upper body to turn. We will now be at an angle facing our opponent, but looking at their shoulders, minimizing their ability to attack with the other hand. Our right arm still maintains control of their nearest arm, so that it can't disengage for a hook punch or anything.

Meanwhile, our left hand will come inside and over the top of our right hand in a position resembling WC's taan sau, keeping the center tight and deflecting anything that might have gotten through. The left hand then continues forward turning fingers skyward to deliver a outside base-of-palm strike to the jawbone, turning the opponent's head and upper body further. As we do this we are pressing forward with our left "bow stance" into the opponent, taking their space.

The final position of the palm strike also resembles WC's wu sau, with the fingers pointing upward the forearm is slanting out and downward with the elbow slightly out. This would effectively stuff the opponents right hook punch, meeting it at the inside of the upper arm, should they be able to retreat and make such an attack, if you didn't successfully turn their upper body.

From the final position, the follow up is your choice. Whatever your style, you're in an optimal position for multi-strikes, locks, takedowns, etc..

[lance]

In your respective Lineages How do you defend against an upper cut?


Are there any drills, applications from the three forms or san sik techniques that you utilize to defend against Upper cut?

i believe the cutting energy of Bil Sau is best used for Round Punches like Hooks. But what technique is effective against a Uppercut?

Please share your opinion?
It depends on what hand the opponent is using the uppercut with . If it ' s the right hand , then I can use the left hand pak sao or left hand downward slap block with a right hand vertical fist punch to the face area . Or you can use a right palm strike to the opponents' face , even a right bil jee to the eyes .

[sanjuro_ronin]

agree....like making a battle plan...

You know the old saying...everyone has a plan...

[Yoshiyahu]

Training muscle memory until certain things become instinctive or second nature is key to applying techniques with flow an at the spur of the moment...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Training muscle memory until certain things become instinctive or second nature is key to applying techniques with flow an at the spur of the moment...

Which ONLY works as well as what you are being exposed to.
In other words:
Ingraining the muscle memory to deal with a uppercut that you know is coming and done a certain way will NOT help you to deal with an uppercut you do NOT know is coming and delivered in a different way.
As a WC person you should know that instinctive application of TECHNIQUE is inferior to instinctive application of principles while fighting.

[JPinAZ]

As a WC person you should know that instinctive application of TECHNIQUE is inferior to instinctive application of principles while fighting.

Couldn't agree more - well said!!

[wtxs]

Does not being a WC practitioner disqualify me from contributing to this topic? I train Songshan Shaolin, but many of our structures and techniques are similar/identical, as I've seen, believe it or not.

We have a common technique called gongbu tuizhang (bow step pushing palm). It is a two part move and can be used as a defense against a tight-range uppercut, or in any situation where you're close to the opponent with their forearms almost vertical, as in a tight boxing style uppercut. You can even do it by stuffing their guard and going from there.

The technique is this; say a left uppercut is incoming, we use our right forearm to block on the outside of the opponents arm in a structure resembling WC's fuk sau. The wrist turns inward to either hook around the opponent's wrist, or cover the fist from above for added protection.

But the crux of the technique lies in turning the waist to the left while using the forearm/elbow to push against the outside of the opponent's arm, around the elbow or higher. Since the forearm can pivot at the elbow, it is important to push at the elbow or higher on the upper arm. Since it is directly connected to the shoulder, the turn will cause the opponent's upper body to turn. We will now be at an angle facing our opponent, but looking at their shoulders, minimizing their ability to attack with the other hand. Our right arm still maintains control of their nearest arm, so that it can't disengage for a hook punch or anything.

Meanwhile, our left hand will come inside and over the top of our right hand in a position resembling WC's taan sau, keeping the center tight and deflecting anything that might have gotten through. The left hand then continues forward turning fingers skyward to deliver a outside base-of-palm strike to the jawbone, turning the opponent's head and upper body further. As we do this we are pressing forward with our left "bow stance" into the opponent, taking their space.

The final position of the palm strike also resembles WC's wu sau, with the fingers pointing upward the forearm is slanting out and downward with the elbow slightly out. This would effectively stuff the opponents right hook punch, meeting it at the inside of the upper arm, should they be able to retreat and make such an attack, if you didn't successfully turn their upper body.

From the final position, the follow up is your choice. Whatever your style, you're in an optimal position for multi-strikes, locks, takedowns, etc..


You are more than right, after all ... WC is the distillation product of other chines MA.

[Yoshiyahu]

Why not have both ingrained...


Technique and Principles?


Why cant both become instinctive?


Ne Way your right only training against an upper cut with out really defending against a non-choregraphic opponent who is throwing multiple attacks at you is the best way to hone your skill at defending...an uppercut wont be the only thing you need to defend against...but if its the only thing you have no Answer for...where there in lies the problem...


You have weak spot...


Not to say training and sparring will make you invincible. It wont no matter how much you train and fight sometimes things will slip through....



Which ONLY works as well as what you are being exposed to.
In other words:
Ingraining the muscle memory to deal with a uppercut that you know is coming and done a certain way will NOT help you to deal with an uppercut you do NOT know is coming and delivered in a different way.
As a WC person you should know that instinctive application of TECHNIQUE is inferior to instinctive application of principles while fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why not have both ingrained...


Technique and Principles?


Why cant both become instinctive?


Ne Way your right only training against an upper cut with out really defending against a non-choregraphic opponent who is throwing multiple attacks at you is the best way to hone your skill at defending...an uppercut wont be the only thing you need to defend against...but if its the only thing you have no Answer for...where there in lies the problem...


You have weak spot...


Not to say training and sparring will make you invincible. It wont no matter how much you train and fight sometimes things will slip through....

Unless you can train VS all types of fighting systems and how they fight ( something that WC practioners are notorious for NOT doing), the ideal way is to train against the principles.
Of course the best way to do that is to actually fight so what you need is to expose yourself to as many fighting styles as possible (testing phase) and develop the skills to deal with THEM ( development phase).
Training to defend an uppercut from a partner that is throwing them in a "WC manner" when you know they are coming will develop the skills to defend against THAT and nothing else.
A good boxer will drill an uppercut from the outside and inside and in combinations and as attacks and counters AND part of combos, sometimes leading with it or ending with it or throwing it somewhere inbetween.
And he will throw it to HIT you, at the range that it does the max effect.

And thatis just a boxer, don't even got there about how a kali guy might do it or an MMA guy, etc.

[Dragonzbane76]

Uppercut has different varities. Boxer uppercut and or dirty boxing/mma upper cut. you guys have touched on the boxing more or less. What about the half plum dirty upper? Dont know much about the techniques of wc but you should look at the technique from all angles.

[free2flow]

And thatis just a boxer, don't even got there about how a kali guy might do it or an MMA guy, etc.

Don't worry too much of a Kali guy doing an uppercut, remember, we know those guys can't really translate well into empty hands? Sorry just messing with you Sanjuro :).

Seriously against an uppercut by a Kali guy with a knife in his hand is more the challenging one.

[k gledhill]

Don't worry too much of a Kali guy doing an uppercut, remember, we know those guys can't really translate well into empty hands? Sorry just messing with you Sanjuro :).

Seriously against an uppercut by a Kali guy with a knife in his hand is more the challenging one.

Ving Tsun knife fighting tactics translate into the tactical combat approach of the empty hands, distances and methods vary for obvious reasons.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Don't worry too much of a Kali guy doing an uppercut, remember, we know those guys can't really translate well into empty hands? Sorry just messing with you Sanjuro :).

Seriously against an uppercut by a Kali guy with a knife in his hand is more the challenging one.

I mentioned Kali guys because they tend to uppercut "up the middle", through the "elbows and arms".
Some WC guys think their elbows and "guard" block uppercuts without understanding that some uppercuts are "design" for that kind of "defense".

[free2flow]

Ving Tsun knife fighting tactics translate into the tactical combat approach of the empty hands, distances and methods vary for obvious reasons.
Thanks for the info, I can see how a Wing Chun will be very good with a knife. I don't see it trained often though. IMHO this is one of those cases where I really would rather work on actual and specific techniques.

[free2flow]

I mentioned Kali guys because they tend to uppercut "up the middle", through the "elbows and arms".
Some WC guys think their elbows and "guard" block uppercuts without understanding that some uppercuts are "design" for that kind of "defense".
Got you,very good point! Bladed weapons has it's own nuances :).

[LFJ]

Why not have both ingrained...

Technique and Principles?

Why cant both become instinctive?


Training to defend an uppercut from a partner that is throwing them in a "WC manner" when you know they are coming will develop the skills to defend against THAT and nothing else.



I have to give Yoshi credit here, to some extent.

At least in the system I train, techniques and principles are not such separate things, and logically shouldn't be. In applying a certain technique I'm utilizing the principles of my style, which allow for fluid changeability. Techniques are not rigid, one application, things at all separate from the principles of the system.

If a technique does not contain those important principles, then it's a bad technique.

In the system I train, our forms contain techniques that we train to become instinctive. Such as the technique I described in a previous post (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1158117&postcount=21).

This technique can be applied in many different situations, as many different interpretations. It can be used against straight punches, uppercuts, kicks, shoot-ins, or it can be initiated from our side first. Of course small details will alter according to the situation, but the overall mechanics of the technique are the same. This is something that would be more easily demonstrable if I did a video on it...

The thing is that within the technique are contained the principles which keep us protected. So that no matter how the opponent responds, the structure of our technique will have principles in place that will allow us to stay protected and change to deal with it.

[Yoshiyahu]

Thanks for sharing LFJ...Im glad to see there is more people who train this way...



I have to give Yoshi credit here, to some extent.

At least in the system I train, techniques and principles are not such separate things, and logically shouldn't be. In applying a certain technique I'm utilizing the principles of my style, which allow for fluid changeability. Techniques are not rigid, one application, things at all separate from the principles of the system.

If a technique does not contain those important principles, then it's a bad technique.

In the system I train, our forms contain techniques that we train to become instinctive. Such as the technique I described in a previous post (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1158117&postcount=21).

This technique can be applied in many different situations, as many different interpretations. It can be used against straight punches, uppercuts, kicks, shoot-ins, or it can be initiated from our side first. Of course small details will alter according to the situation, but the overall mechanics of the technique are the same. This is something that would be more easily demonstrable if I did a video on it...

The thing is that within the technique are contained the principles which keep us protected. So that no matter how the opponent responds, the structure of our technique will have principles in place that will allow us to stay protected and change to deal with it.

OOh so your not one of those guys who believes his wu sau guard can protect him from any linear attack?

Clip of sparring a street boxer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEgMqIo3MdE)


I mentioned Kali guys because they tend to uppercut "up the middle", through the "elbows and arms".
Some WC guys think their elbows and "guard" block uppercuts without understanding that some uppercuts are "design" for that kind of "defense".



Never specifically trained with any good MMA guys. But I have trained with street fighters, boxers, and other guys from various styles. Some harder to deal with than others depending on their skill level. Before WC I had to learn basic street fighting techniques based off boxing. Its essential for where i grew up at. Going to school fighting was the thing to do. So how to throw an upper cut or hook I knew about before I even heard of sun punch or YGKYM. ne way. You are right you need many fighting styles. So true. its a good thing i have had the privilidege of meeting people from other back grounds. Like Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, Hapikido, Akido, Tae kwon Do, Hung Gar, Xing Yi, Baquazhang, Tai Chi,Street fighters, An some low level MMA guys.

I agree drill the upper cut from outside to inside and drill it with combinations. When i first learn WC started a freeflowing san shou techniques where you train against various strikes from hooks to uppercuts to right crosses to other hand techniques like hammer fist and back fist and so on. You start off slow at first to gain muscle memory and over a few months of doing you speed up. In some cases if your training partner was arrogant he would throw the punches faster at you just to hit you. So you might as well learn how to defend quicker. But the san shou is all stationary. Then your required to spar against a guy who can use anything he wants but WC. A most guys have different back grounds. My Sidai for instance train at boxing gym and did high school wrestling. Another friend of mines practice Muay Thai. My Sihing practice Karate before learning WC. My Sifu also practice Kempo in addition to other arts before training WC. I also have friends who did various other martial arts I would spar with on regular when i first learn WC. So I quickly learn how to defend against alot of stuff they would throw at me. As for slipping the uppercut...your right they are trying to slip an upper cut...but if you practice a technique long enough certain attacks will slow down when you spar. An you will notice certain shapes...lack of better term. When those shapes arise you will instantly defend against it...but this takes alot of practice!



Unless you can train VS all types of fighting systems and how they fight ( something that WC practioners are notorious for NOT doing), the ideal way is to train against the principles.
Of course the best way to do that is to actually fight so what you need is to expose yourself to as many fighting styles as possible (testing phase) and develop the skills to deal with THEM ( development phase).
Training to defend an uppercut from a partner that is throwing them in a "WC manner" when you know they are coming will develop the skills to defend against THAT and nothing else.
A good boxer will drill an uppercut from the outside and inside and in combinations and as attacks and counters AND part of combos, sometimes leading with it or ending with it or throwing it somewhere inbetween.
And he will throw it to HIT you, at the range that it does the max effect.

And thatis just a boxer, don't even got there about how a kali guy might do it or an MMA guy, etc.


So true...thats a good point?



Uppercut has different varities. Boxer uppercut and or dirty boxing/mma upper cut. you guys have touched on the boxing more or less. What about the half plum dirty upper? Dont know much about the techniques of wc but you should look at the technique from all angles.

[LFJ]

Here's a pretty nice explanation of what I was talking about with technique & principles not being so much different. Only here, the terminology is different. Technique vs Movement.

But the idea of movement explained here is really what I meant by technique. You can learn one "movement", have it ingrained, and apply it in many different situations and it will work because of the inherent principles of the movement itself. Once you understand those principles that make the movement work, you can easily change it up depending on the situation and protect yourself. All the while, still doing just the same movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdQlQ2w-McQ

[Yoshiyahu]

So True...same thing with practicing a Jum Da against a uppercut...the more use it..you can also use if for other techniques as well...the more u practice, spar and experience the more the techniques become natural...An when they become natural you learn how to adapt them to any given situtation or technique thrown at you...


But it takes time and practice!



Here's a pretty nice explanation of what I was talking about with technique & principles not being so much different. Only here, the terminology is different. Technique vs Movement.

But the idea of movement explained here is really what I meant by technique. You can learn one "movement", have it ingrained, and apply it in many different situations and it will work because of the inherent principles of the movement itself. Once you understand those principles that make the movement work, you can easily change it up depending on the situation and protect yourself. All the while, still doing just the same movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdQlQ2w-McQ