Teaching Kung Fu from the Beginning

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Teaching martial arts I believe is an art itself and I wondered for those who teach or those with experience who can talk about their teachers, what are the core elements it takes to make someone's Kung Fu strong.

This is not a set routine but rather a guideline of what I find important for teaching Kung Fu:

Basics- The absolute foundation that must be taught. I consider basics the tools and mechanics for everything. When teaching a punch, kick, block, throw, counter, ect., one should break this technique down in an A to Z fashion so that the student understands the what and why of what they are doing.

Stance Training- Always get disagreements on this, but stance training, both stagnant and transitional, are essential to a student's foundation and rooting, which is a requisite for strong Kung Fu. Footwork, dropping the weight, counter sinking, sweeping, throwing, all come from good stance work and strong rooted legs.

Bag Work- Working the heavy bag is something that is essential to build power, speed, and timing. There is nothing wrong with doing basics in line and throwing techniques in the air to learn and refine form, however, if a student never hits anything, how do they learn the true mechanics of it? Absolute requirement.

Mitt Work- Seperate yet equally important to bag work, mitt work refines technique, builds speed and power, and increases and improves accuracy. I hold mitts often for my students and do set techniques as well as freestyle movement. I believe kicks are best practiced on mitts and have them partner up and do kicks such as front snap, side snap, crescents, hooks, roundhouses, and spinning for the more advanced. We hold Thai Mitts to work power roundhouses, knees, and push kicks. We kick body shields with front thust kicks, side thrust kicks, and roundhouses. This refines.

Two Person Drills- Step sparring to give students the mechanics and know how to do certain techniques and combinations. It could be something as simple as jab, cross, roundhouse to advanced sticky hand drills, jamming and bridging, or clinch. Very essential in my opinion.

Sparring- The absolute necissity for good Kung Fu, sparring can be done at different levels but what is required is freestyle movement and reactionary techniques. I have my students spar in three manners

1. Hard Sparring- Full Equipment (Head Gear, Boxing Gloves, Shin Guards) Heavy Contact with protection for minimal injury, let's them go without much fear of injury.

2. Refined Sparring-MMA or Fingerless Gloves, Less contact but more focus on technique and open hand strikes, clinch, and grabbing and sticky techniques.

3. San Shou- Same as Hard Sparring but with throws, ground work, ground strikes, submissions, ect. Often you can mix this with refined sparring moreso for subs due to the inability with boxing gloves.

Throwing/Shuai Training/Submissions/Chin Na- Can fall into the basics category but freestyle and randori must be done for best results.

Iron Training- Bang arms, bang shins, kick ribcage, kick legs, and overall make the body a piece of steel. I have begun to implement much more of this into my teaching routine as it was a huge part when I was coming up through.

Forms- Set patterns which define the system you teach. I also include Chi Kung and meditation into this area. While I do not feel these have as important of a role as others I mentioned, they are a part of Kung Fu and have their place within the system being taught.

Please feel free to tell of your teaching method or of the teaching method that you learned with. I feel as an instructor nothing in Kung Fu should be stagnant and we should always be trying to teaching and training methods.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I keep it simple:
The first year- "kick boxing/mma" type training.
It creates a practical and functional core to build everything from.
After that, it depends of what the student wants to learn and why he wants to learn.
No STATIC stance training ( all of the stance work is dynamic).
Strength training is a must.
Gungs and such are taught after.

[TenTigers]

I keep it simple:
The first year- "kick boxing/mma" type training.
It creates a practical and functional core to build everything from.
After that, it depends of what the student wants to learn and why he wants to learn.
No STATIC stance training ( all of the stance work is dynamic).
Strength training is a must.
Gungs and such are taught after.
I do the same, but I do teach static stance training. It teaches the student to feel and their body to learn what is a proper stance, so that when they are doing active drilling, they can maintain structure.
Look at your worst students and realize that while it may not be the norm, it is common. The beginner is lazy. Perhaps not intentionally, but they will find the easy way out. They will come out of their structure, they will drop their hands, they will do incomplete movement.
Static training gives the teacher the ability to make on the spot corrections and adjustments, and in time, it will take.
(that last part, if you say it like Yoda...)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I do the same, but I do teach static stance training. It teaches the student to feel and their body to learn what is a proper stance, so that when they are doing active drilling, they can maintain structure.
Look at your worst students and realize that while it may not be the norm, it is common. The beginner is lazy. Perhaps not intentionally, but they will find the easy way out. They will come out of their structure, they will drop their hands, they will do incomplete movement.
Static training gives the teacher the ability to make on the spot corrections and adjustments, and in time, it will take.
(that last part, if you say it like Yoda...)

Perhaps, but I really haven;t seen it do that any better than dynamic stance training and at least when it is dynamic they are learning a skillset on top of it.
Some of the best "rooted" MA are wrestlers and judoka and they do NO static stance training at all, same thing for sumotoris.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Strength training and conditioning is a huge part of my class as well. I teach twice a week and have two hour classes, so a lot of the material is in those two hours and that includes loads of conditioning. It has always worked for us. I would probably seperate it more if I taught more days of the week, but I don't run a commercial school and have a job and a life outside of my gym so it is what it is.

[David Jamieson]

There is no such thing as a static stance. Not even in Kung Fu. There is always adjustment and motion happening.

Here's a good article:
http://www.citraining.com/Emerging-Concepts-Posture.html

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is no such thing as a static stance. Not even in Kung Fu. There is always adjustment and motion happening.

Here's a good article:
http://www.citraining.com/Emerging-Concepts-Posture.html

Static is stance for the "sake" of stance - 20 min horse stance is an example.
Dynamic stance work is maintaining a stance while under "pressure".

[ShaolinDan]

Perhaps, but I really haven;t seen it do that any better than dynamic stance training and at least when it is dynamic they are learning a skillset on top of it.
Some of the best "rooted" MA are wrestlers and judoka and they do NO static stance training at all, same thing for sumotoris.

They used to make the wrestlers in my H.S. hold a half-squat position to time... :)
Somewhere sometime TGY posted something interesting about static stance training, something to do with activating the muscle core...

[Drake]

Planks are static exercises, and GREAT for your core.

Just because it doesn't make something blow up or have an immediate combat application doesn't mean it's not useful.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Guys, knock yourselves out, LOL !
Just because I don't do them nor would I teach them doesn't mean YOU shouldn't if you want to.

[wenshu]

I find great benefit in static training. More than just Horse stance; tuck planche, front & back levers, l- sits.

I don't go crazy with it; between 10 - 30 seconds to at the very most a few minutes focused on perfect form. They're a great form of active recovery exercise. You can't lift heavy, max out pull ups and do hill sled sprints every single day.

It has it's place but it's no panacea or end all be all to training. Neither is weight lifting.

[Drake]

Guys, knock yourselves out, LOL !
Just because I don't do them nor would I teach them doesn't mean YOU shouldn't if you want to.

I've never NOT done core work. I don't come here for fitness advice, anyway. :D

[Neeros]

I love how the first response recommends you train them in kickboxing/mma when you want to teach them Kung fu. :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

I love how the first response recommends you train them in kickboxing/mma when you want to teach them Kung fu. :rolleyes:

That you don't get it shows that you don't get it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've never NOT done core work. I don't come here for fitness advice, anyway. :D

Awesome !
You shouldn't come here for fitness advice anyways, or MA advice either for that matter.
:D

[Drake]

Awesome !
You shouldn't come here for fitness advice anyways, or MA advice either for that matter.
:D

I just come here for the nachos and pics. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just come here for the nachos and pics. :D

Smart man ;)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I keep trying to quit this place, but where else can you find a forum with nachos, ninjettes, awesome trolls, STEP, and of course the philosopy that Kung Fu is dead on a Kung Fu forum. Fellow, it's kind of like Old Milwaukee, "It doesn't get any better than this".

[Neeros]

That you don't get it shows that you don't get it.

:D

I do get it though, kung fu is so degraded nowadays that your advice is good advice for most people.

[sanjuro_ronin]

:D

I do get it though, kung fu is so degraded nowadays that your advice is good advice for most people.

Personally I have never felt that "kung fu" is a god starting art, I tend to view it more of a "finishing" thing but that's just me.
Also, if you notice you will see the quotation marks around the "kickboxing/mma".
There is a reason for that, think "sanda".

[sanjuro_ronin]

I keep trying to quit this place, but where else can you find a forum with nachos, ninjettes, awesome trolls, STEP, and of course the philosopy that Kung Fu is dead on a Kung Fu forum. Fellow, it's kind of like Old Milwaukee, "It doesn't get any better than this".

We are unique, we even get people stating that cutting the oxygen supply to the brain by putting pressure on the windpipe doesn't work.
:D

We're sexy and we know it !

https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkbn2zg5zNmaGs7wG-BUxbptGTzTh6HYoJ38fElfEKMTWBEPSG

[Drake]

We are unique, we even get people stating that cutting the oxygen supply to the brain by putting pressure on the windpipe doesn't work.
:D

We're sexy and we know it !

https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQkbn2zg5zNmaGs7wG-BUxbptGTzTh6HYoJ38fElfEKMTWBEPSG

Hey, I'll even let you try it on me, just to prove my point.

Of course... we must be fully oiled up and in bikinis prior. That way we can...um...accurately reflect... err... real combat, or something. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey, I'll even let you try it on me, just to prove my point.

Of course... we must be fully oiled up and in bikinis prior. That way we can...um...accurately reflect... err... real combat, or something. :D

No more Spartacus for you !

[Neeros]

Personally I have never felt that "kung fu" is a god starting art, I tend to view it more of a "finishing" thing but that's just me.
Also, if you notice you will see the quotation marks around the "kickboxing/mma".
There is a reason for that, think "sanda".

*Shrugs* So far I think it is giving me a better foundation than my old training, only because it fits my own aims and objectives though.

Modern Sanda is a good example, while magnificent to watch just like all kickboxing/ mma, it's hard to spot traditional footwork and patterns being used.

I simply want to compete in Sanda using traditional methods, not ones that have been cross-trained into it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey, I'll even let you try it on me, just to prove my point.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eun5h5FoieU

[Lee Chiang Po]

Teaching is a hard earned skill. You don't really have to know much about the subject in order to teach it. A book, and a bit of advance study and you can teach any subject. The idea that one must be a champion fighter in order to teach is foolish. Most people will get ahead of themselves and start working students in things they shouldnt be doing. A student must know every aspect of the things he is taught, and this requires you teach everything in the sequence it belongs in.
A bad example would be to start by teaching a quick version of sil lim and then start chi sao almost immediately. Depending on the number of students and the number of hours the student spends in the kwoon, a beginner is many months away from chi sao.
certain systems of gung fu are represented by certain concepts and methods. If you go and learn another system of fighting first, you will always find fault with the new system and alter it to match up with what you have already learned, be it good or bad. You mix black and white, you get gray. Mix good and bad and you get mediocre.

[Brule]

Teaching is a hard earned skill. You don't really have to know much about the subject in order to teach it. A book, and a bit of advance study and you can teach any subject. The idea that one must be a champion fighter in order to teach is foolish. Most people will get ahead of themselves and start working students in things they shouldnt be doing. A student must know every aspect of the things he is taught, and this requires you teach everything in the sequence it belongs in.
A bad example would be to start by teaching a quick version of sil lim and then start chi sao almost immediately. Depending on the number of students and the number of hours the student spends in the kwoon, a beginner is many months away from chi sao.
certain systems of gung fu are represented by certain concepts and methods. If you go and learn another system of fighting first, you will always find fault with the new system and alter it to match up with what you have already learned, be it good or bad. You mix black and white, you get gray. Mix good and bad and you get mediocre.

Dude, a bad example would be to start teaching wing chun period !!!!

Maybe i'll start it's own thread but for those who teach kids, how do you change your method? I'm talking 6 - 8 year olds.

[David Jamieson]

I don't teach kids, but when I did...

It's about keeping their attention and playing games that are somewhat physically demanding for a kid.

co-ordination balance and structure are important to develop in children. When they are aware of posture and stepping etc, it will benefit them greatly as they grow into the art further.

there should not be any full contact striking against each other at all whatsoever until at the very least they are in the 16-18 yr old range.

Not only for liability concerns, but because of real physical concerns. IE: a kid is not developed, their bones are still forming and their skull is not completely sealed until at least 18 years old.

so games in the spirit of kung fu that encourage and produce co-ordination, balance and comradeship amongst them.

form is also a good place for kids to start.

For older people, it is a concern to me personally that they actually have the guts to fight. this can be read pretty quickly with light sparring, gloved up, headgear etc. You can get a look at how the person moves and feels about the situation as it is going on.

heavy bag can show good or bad structure.

mitts can show good or bad timing, reflexes and footwork if you get that in there.

Depending on where a persona is at, they could start from anywhere. But typically it's first, develop strength and condition. When that is good or solid, move on to technique. Move that to drills, move that to sparring then build, rebuild and keep building.

by the time the law of diminishing returns kicks in, you should have yourself a pretty handy individual.

Practice on their own cannot be encouraged enough. This is where most fail. Quite frankly it takes some time before a person develops good practice habits. Basically, they really have to want to succeed to get into good habits.

That's something you cannot turn on or off. It's either there or it's not. Either way that's ok.

I still won't teach kids. lol (mostly because they bring all their parents' baggage with them)

[Brule]

I ask because my two boys are showing a lot of interest, actually one is more so than the other, and are asking me to teach them kung fu. I have started with the basics stances and moving around in them but was curious how other went about this.

[wenshu]

Maybe i'll start it's own thread but for those who teach kids, how do you change your method? I'm talking 6 - 8 year olds.

Teach them a real sport.

[dirtyrat]

*Shrugs* So far I think it is giving me a better foundation than my old training, only because it fits my own aims and objectives though.

Modern Sanda is a good example, while magnificent to watch just like all kickboxing/ mma, it's hard to spot traditional footwork and patterns being used.

I simply want to compete in Sanda using traditional methods, not ones that have been cross-trained into it.

i feel kung fu gave me a great foundation. no matter what other martial art (judo, gjj, hapkido, fma, jeet kune do, etc) i studied afterwards, my instructors were always impressed with how fast i caught on.

thing about training, westerners seem big on categorizing things. there's talk about different combat ranges - striking, kicking, trapping, clinching, grappling. when i learn kung fu, these things were never neatly separated, but integrated synergistically. for example a block could be an attack that could push/pull the opponent off-balance for a takedown/throw.

[David Jamieson]

Teach them a real sport.

I would agree, hence the games and such that they are taught in martial schools.

A team sport would be better for them developmentally.

Training a martial art solo can leave the kid adrift in a sea of thought he shouldn't be hampered with until he's at least your age! lol

[David Jamieson]

i feel kung fu gave me a great foundation. no matter what other martial art (judo, gjj, hapkido, fma, jeet kune do, etc) i studied afterwards, my instructors were always impressed with how fast i caught on.

thing about training, westerners seem big on categorizing things. there's talk about different combat ranges - striking, kicking, trapping, clinching, grappling. when i learn kung fu, these things were never neatly separated, but integrated synergistically. for example a block could be an attack that could push/pull the opponent off-balance for a takedown/throw.

You should see what the Japanese do when it comes to pigeonholing every single tiny move you make. lol

ever done Karate? Judo?

[dirtyrat]

You should see what the Japanese do when it comes to pigeonholing every single tiny move you make. lol

ever done Karate? Judo?

karate, a bit. i felt like i was slumming it. lol. jk. i took Okinawan goju ryu actually. i saw a lot similarities to kung fu.

judo, yes. i know what you're saying....

[Drake]

Karate is good.

TKD is good, too.


ANYTHING that gets a child out and interacting and getting exercise is very good.

You could be holding back the next Pele or Joe Montana by making them stand in a horse stance for 30 mins and remembering forms.

[Brule]

I would agree, hence the games and such that they are taught in martial schools.

A team sport would be better for them developmentally.

Training a martial art solo can leave the kid adrift in a sea of thought he shouldn't be hampered with until he's at least your age! lol

They both play organized soccer, so it's not like kung fu is the only activity they are doing. It's more like an interest or hobby which will hopefully fourish.

[sanjuro_ronin]

They both play organized soccer, so it's not like kung fu is the only activity they are doing. It's more like an interest or hobby which will hopefully fourish.

Sofia is turning 9 and wants to do MA.
I started at 9 so I think that is a good age.
I will probably put her in Judo or TKD, not sure which, and train her at home on the bag and pads.
If I can find a MMA gym that has kids class, I will put her in that.

[TenTigers]

Sofia is turning 9 and wants to do MA.
I started at 9 so I think that is a good age.
I will probably put her in Judo or TKD, not sure which, and train her at home on the bag and pads.
If I can find a MMA gym that has kids class, I will put her in that.
I would go with judo first.
It teaches them to fall safely, and that is a skill that will take her through life.
The throws and falling will "toughen her up." and prepare her for harder banging around later.
Throws at that age are fight enders. You drop a nine yr old on their back, and knock the wind out of them and it's over. As a parent, you would much rather have your daughter throw someone than get sued for her kicking a kid's teeth out.
You can train her flexibility and kicks and punches at home and later on, send her to a striking or mma school.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would go with judo first.
It teaches them to fall safely, and that is a skill that will take her through life.
The throws and falling will "toughen her up." and prepare her for harder banging around later.
Throws at that age are fight enders. You drop a nine yr old on their back, and knock the wind out of them and it's over. As a parent, you would much rather have your daughter throw someone than get sued for her kicking a kid's teeth out.
You can train her flexibility and kicks and punches at home and later on, send her to a striking or mma school.

As a former judoka I agree :)
Finding one to fit our schedule, that maybe tricky....

[Lee Chiang Po]

Dude, a bad example would be to start teaching wing chun period !!!!

Maybe i'll start it's own thread but for those who teach kids, how do you change your method? I'm talking 6 - 8 year olds.


I really think the worst example would be to attempt to teach any 6-8 year old about any kind of fighting. I once seen 2 young korean kids, about 6 years old, that were both black belts in TKD. Rediculous really. On average, kids this age are not able to learn the principal concepts of such matters. They are best left at playing silly child games. 10 years of age being the absolute earliest age to start training. I also think WC would be the best option here as it is more realistic and more in line with a childs ability to move. Even adults have difficulty learning to do some of the stuff in other gung fu systems.

[Jimbo]

As a former judoka I agree :)
Finding one to fit our schedule, that maybe tricky....

I also agree with TT. Judo was the first MA I ever began learning, and it helped me immensely as a kid. At the young age I was introduced into it (10), I was one of those kids who was afraid of fist-fighting/kicking, but felt much more confident at throwing/wrestling. And yes, I found that judo really hardens/toughens the body and mind, and lays a great foundation for future training in other MA's. If you can find a dojo that fits your schedule, I think judo would be perfect for your daughter's first MA.

Either that, or take her to some classes and let her choose which one she'd like to start with.

[TenTigers]

Either that, or take her to some classes and let her choose which one she'd like to start with.
yeah? What if she chooses wu-shu, or one of those commercial Shaolin Karotty self-defense we teach five animals birthday party schools? Or one of those that you see on yuotube, with the chik in the Chinese dress with leggings and barefoot, chopsticks in her hair, doing modern dance with a fan schools? What then, huh? What then?
No. Throw her in a Judo school and be done with it.

[Lucas]

id say judo too....:( however once she does cross over to kungfu, she'll be able to out grapple everyone in the kungfu school :D

also that way if she does choose wushu dance, then she'll have judo with her forever.

[doug maverick]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/421723_10101485188771715_12427183_69219790_4553338 11_n.jpg

[TenTigers]

Doug-could you send that to my facebook page? I love it!

[doug maverick]

Doug-could you send that to my facebook page? I love it!

yea dude..whats your fb? wait we might already be friends on face book..lol

[TenTigers]

yea dude..whats your fb? wait we might already be friends on face book..lol
Rik Kellerman

[Syn7]

Training and teaching in todays world is so different from what it used to be. Real apprenticeships were hardcore. You lived with your teacher, or close by and you did a lot for him outside of the art. That teacher became like a godfather. It just isn't like that so much these days. It must have a huge effect on the arts in general.

This is true in most professions tho. In the west we rarely pass our skills on to our kids anymore. Farmers do still. A few other professions, but not many. Nepotism is like your best friend and your greatest enemy lol. Guess it depends how smart you are and what kind of stock you come from.

[SPJ]

We may start from boxing or kickboxing.

We may start from Judo or Akido.

As long as we continue our learning in punches, kicks, grappling and throws.

There are many styles or specializations of skills in kung fu.

As long as we start somewhere.

and we continue our learning.

---

I start with tan tui.

I start with shuai jiao.

the paths may vary.

the destination is the same.

:)