Reminder to everyone [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Lost_Disciple

07-19-2001, 05:56 AM

Man my bench is pitiful. I work out alone so I really can't get my bench up. I'm wondering if my tris are the problem.

Instead of bench I usually do:
-military press with a 1RM of a little over 115 (yah, I know that's weak).
-dips- sometimes losing it when I go all the way down.

I weigh about 225 and my other lifts look like:
Deadlift- did 315 twice, could do more, but couldn't get anything moving with 365
Squat- One a$$-to-the-ground of 275 (also sounds weak)
Lunge- 1RM of 225
Pullups- 1, maybe 2 decent (yah I'm weak)
barbell curl- 1RM of 115

I guess what I'm saying is that some of my lifts look like they're getting there and others look really weak to what I see other people doing online and in the gym. Trying not to get frustrated.

Stranger

07-19-2001, 02:37 PM

I was a personal trainer in a gym for several years. This guy was decline benching heavy one day without a spotter. I was in between clients and gym policy dictated that I asked the guy if he would like a spot. He politely declined. Not 5 seconds later, blood curdling scream- the guy dropped the bar across his mouth.

I had to clean the mess- blood everywhere! :( :eek: :rolleyes:

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

Ford Prefect

07-19-2001, 03:34 PM

I actually gave up benching a few months ago. I read a university study about injuries from benching, and they came to the conclusion that the body (shoulder specifically) isn't built to support heavy weight in that position. I just do overhead presses and various push-ups now. I haven't seen it effect my athletic performance in the least so far.

UberShaman

07-19-2001, 04:18 PM

I always work out by myself, luckily I have a power cage at home so it hasnt been a problem

shaolin_knight

07-19-2001, 10:53 PM

Yeah, benches are a waste of time. Unless you are trying to impress someone, then the bench is the way to go. I gave it up too.

To the guy that was wondering about his triceps, they mainly lift the last part. Strengthening your triceps doesn't really help with your bench. It helps some people, because if you take a little break from the lift and do something else, when you come back you might be able to start improving your bench. Do cycling instead (not bicycling). You know what cycling is don't you? If not just ask. :)

IronFist

07-20-2001, 12:04 AM

When done responsibly, benching is an excellent exercise, in my opinion. Nothing else works my shoulders and chest as well as flat benching. But, my body is weird in that I never have to do any shoulder-specific exercises, and I can still max out almost every shoulder machine I've ever tried. I guess i have good shoulder genes.

But I do like the progress my chest makes when benching. For all you non-benchers, what do you do to develop power in your chest?

Iron

Lost_Disciple

07-20-2001, 03:30 AM

I'm about 5'10, 5'11 with lanky arms and a thick torso. Since I started lifting, wide-grip benches have always been a lot easier than narrow/standard grip, that also might be due to increased shoulder dependency as well. BTW- I find that close grip benches work my shoulders way more than tris, and way more than the other 2 styles of benching. Maybe I just have weak shoulders?

By cycling do you mean messing with number of reps, sets, and tempo? Or are you talking about a set plan with a set schedule (ie. loading phase, etc) similar to cycling supplements? Sorry if I sound igno'ant.

I think I like working dips and military presses more than bench. Both of them are really difficult for me, but the gains I make with either seem to lead to more changes functional strength.

On a side note, I split my training into 2 half-body days lately.
My sets pretty much go:
4 sets for the first 2 exercises (the big ones): 8-6-4-1
3 sets for the next 2 or 3 exercises:
8-6-2
2 sets for the assistors:
6-4 (or 2-1, depending on how I'm feeling)

Upperbody: Dips, Pull/Chin ups, Military Presses, bent rows (machine or freeweight), tricep extensions, and barbell curls.

Lowerbody: Squats, Deadlifts, Lunges, hamstring curls, kick outs (extensions), and calves.

The plan is to stick abs with martial arts/aerobic days, but I'm just getting started with this schedule and taking it a little slow. I'm also looking for someone to help me do medicine ball training.

Probably more info than you wanted to know, but I kinda like this routine & its equal focus on upper & lower.

ged

07-20-2001, 09:33 AM

i had this really good talk with one of the instructors today about weightlifting, he said some interesting things, im just gonna list a couple, can ppl please comment?

ged

07-20-2001, 09:38 AM

i had this really good talk with one of the instructors today about lifting weights, he said some interesting things, im just gonna list a couple, can ppl please comment?

1) working out legs is the most important thing for MA

2) to develop the muscle wanted for MA, do exercises, especially triceps, really really slow. this confused me because i would of thought fast reps would be the go

3) chest is slightly important, but not that useful

4) back, eg lats, is useful. this surprised me.

thanks

Lost_Disciple

07-20-2001, 12:41 PM

What I got from my bud in San Da:

1. Legs are really important. Using Legs in conjunction with the arms, ie a clean and jerk, is good bcause you learn how to coordinate both for maximum power.

2. You should always mess with rep tempo. You get more gains from changing up the tempo- doing some slow some fast. I think explosive power is necessary for punching and kicking. I've heard both though: light weight & fast reps, slow reps as heavy as you can go. I think going as quickly as you can on the concentric part and as slowly as you can go on the eccentric part might be the best mix. For example: on a pull up, pull yourself up as quick as possible, and lower yourself slowly. There was a british study done on purely eccentric lifting- (in the case of pull ups, it's like lowering yourself for 30 seconds). They found that the atheletes were more sore and ill tempered when training like that. Personally, I think being sore isn't necessarily a good thing. So if you're going to go slow, don't do too much if you don't want it to interfere with your other training.

3. Bench wasn't as important as military press. He didn't want a thick chest because it was harder to keep his elbows in for his guard. He didn't want too much size on his triceps cuz he felt it might hinder quickness as well as make it harder to keep his arms up in later rounds. He worked shoulders hard cuz he said a portion of the power comes from the shoulder.

4. Lats & bis are good for being able to snap punches back quickly they also give hooks & uppercuts more power. Again power over size with the biceps to maintain speed and not hurt endurance.

If all else fails read Pavel!!
His stuff really works; what little of it I've tried. He's also really martial arts oriented, having trained the Russian Special Forces.

I know Iron's gonna speak on this and make what I said look amateur. :) So hope this helps in the meantime.

Juggler

07-20-2001, 12:46 PM

Is there a difference between bench-pressing and doing ordinary push-ups?

ged

07-20-2001, 01:13 PM

ah thanks, that does help a fair bit. makes sense.

i have another question - a few months ago, i started doing military press with dumbbells (theres probably another name for it) and i got up to about 6 reps of 15kg on each (hey im 17 and skinny, lol). my last workout, i tried doing it with a barbell.

not too good. i could barely lift anything. i have a friend who says this is because barbell mil pressing does more back, and dumbbells does more triceps. this makes sense, cuz i dont have the strongest back around.

any ideas?

the instructor said that you can have a mix between the two types of muscles, cuz of course you have to look good, so my plan is to work out for mass until i can at least lift respectable weights, then change to building fast twitch.

oh yeah thats the other thing he said which surprised me - that you cant build bulk, then CHANGE it to fast twitch, you have to build them separately. that, quite frankly, sux. he said that speed is paramount tho, and that priority should be given to building fast twitch.

so is fast twitch built by doing high reps quickly? or low reps done really slowly? (i think that these were the gains you were talking about disciple, but im not sure what gains u meant, slow or fast twitch)

i know thats not the best organized post, sorry. but maybe someone can make sense of it?

by the way, its very possible that i have some of my definitions, eg slow twitch and fast twitch, confused. if so, please correct me.

Lost_Disciple

07-20-2001, 08:50 PM

About the military press:
If you go from 15kg x 2 dumbbells x 2.2 (conversion to pounds); you're only lifting about 66 pounds (30kg).
Remember, if you switch to a barbell, the bar can sometimes weigh up to 45 pounds (22.5 kg); which means the total weight you could add would be twenty-one pounds (7.5 kg) or a 10 pound (5kg) weight on each side. I know these conversions s*ck, but the point I'm trying to make is to not forget the weight of the bar. Dumbbell military presses (I call them that actually) require more stabilizer muscles than the barbell and should be harder. It kind of depends how you're doing each exercise, I'd venture to say that you're just not used to doing them with the barbel and once you get the form down comfortably, you'll be okay- take it slow.

About fast-twitch vs. Slow twitch:
To tell you the truth the high speed- high reps thing was something I was told by martial arts instructors, however most of the weight training resources I've checked (including pavel I think) have determined this idea to be flawed. A nice mixture, like I said, was getting fast twitch on the way up with the movement and a little bit slower on the way down. Fast twitch exercises shouldn't be that many reps and they show better results when done with heavy weights.

You're right about your definitions. Things like slow reps, and even horse stance will train slow twitch muscles. My advice is still to do moderate to heavy weight, not too many reps (6 to 8 sounds good), go explosive on the lifting portion and lower it back down slowly. You can train both at the same time. I'd say fast twitch were more important. I'm curious where you read that training fast twitch muscles won't help you gain muscle mass. I'd heard the exact opposite, that if you gear your nutrition towards mass, train 'til failure, and do exercises that rely on fast twitch fibers, it was the best way to gain mass. Sprinters use fast-twitch muscles and look at them: they maintain higher amounts of lean body mass (and lower bodyfat percentages actually).

There are some excerpts from Pavel's books and tons of other training information at http://www.t-mag.com
I only promote that site cuz the guys there have been so friendly and have helped me every step of the way, answering any questions I've had. If they don't have any info on their site about fast twitch vs. slow twitch or how martial artists should work out, and if they can't answer your questions via e-mail; they'll definitely pass them on to someone who can (Pavel or maybe Australian strength coach Ian King).

Train hard.

IronFist

07-20-2001, 09:22 PM

Quotes from ged:

i had this really good talk with one of the instructors today about lifting weights, he said some interesting things, im just gonna list a couple, can ppl please comment?

"1) working out legs is the most important thing for MA"

I assume he was talking about training for sheer strength here, and not training for size. He was right in the sense that training legs is important (and most people don't do it), but I wouldn't say it's the "most" important. I mean obviously, if you're a wrestler or grappler, having strong legs is important, but for even a stand up fighter leg strength is important as well. I wouldn't say it's more important than upper body strength, though. Most likely, he was just emphasizing legs training because almost no one ever trains legs anyway, so maybe he was trying to drill the importance of it into your head :) (after all, how often do you actually see people doing squats in a gym vs. how often do you see people doing curls or bench press :) )

"2) to develop the muscle wanted for MA, do exercises, especially triceps, really really slow. this confused me because i would of thought fast reps would be the go"

He was probably thinking about throwing punches here when he gave you this advice, and assumed that the tricep is the most important muscle in a punch. While having a strong tricep is helpful in generating a strong punch, it's not the most important factor. For instance, you could have a tricep that is capable of lifting a huge amount of weight, but if you don't have other aspects of throwing a punch, ie. proper body mechanics, speed, etc, the punch won't be very powerful. As for the "very very slow" thing, there was once a school of thought that said "train slowly for speed, and vice versa." I'm pretty sure that's been proven false, however. In your triceps training, don't go too slow, just go for a good contraction and feel the muscle working. 2 or 3 seconds per rep.

"3) chest is slightly important, but not that useful"

My opinion seems to contradict a lot of people here. In my opinion, a strong chest is very important. I can see problems from having a chest that is too big, but why wouldn't you want chest strength? Contrary to what most people believe, the main function of the pectorals is not to push the arm out (like a bench press), but to draw the arm inward (like if you hold out your arms so your body makes a "T" and then keeping your elbows straight, bring your hands together in front of you). So, obviously having strong pecs would allow you to have more strength in any movement that involves this motion (including bringing punches to the centerline).

"4) back, eg lats, is useful. this surprised me."

Any movement that invovles pulling your hands towards your body from any angle uses your lats. So, strong lats can be important for things like pulling your opponent off balance, etc.

Well, that's my opinion about your first post.

Iron

IronFist

07-20-2001, 09:28 PM

Quote from Juggler:

"Is there a difference between bench-pressing and doing ordinary push-ups"

Yep. Doing pushups is generally going to be using less weight then if you were to bench press. Benching will build more overall raw strength, where as pushups will build a bit of strength, but only endurance after that. The differance is apparent in that you can do maybe 50 pushups, but most people bench with a weight that they can't lift more than 8 or 10 times.

Also, technically speaking, the angle of standard pushups on the floor is more similar to decline bench press :)

So, it depends what you are after. If you want raw strength, do bench press. If you want endurance of the chest and triceps and anterior delts, do pushups. They both work the same muscles, just in different ways.

Or, do both :)

Iron

IronFist

07-20-2001, 10:04 PM

Lost_Disciple:

Sorry buddy :) , I respect you, but I can't let a praise of www.t-mag.com (http://www.t-mag.com) go unrebuttled. ;)

First, before I start, let me say that in the past t-mag has had some informative articles concerning Pavel, and occasionally they will have something decent.

But for the most part, I cannot stand them. Remember when TC Luoma said that he is 235 and 5% bf year round? When he FINALLY got the guts to post his pic, well, check out for yourself what "235 at 5%" bf looks like:

TC Luoma:
http://www.t-mag.com/img/photos/tc161.jpg

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! He claims those are 16" biceps in that pic, btw.

Funnier yet was that this pic appeared in an issue where he first bashed Mentzer's physique, not to mention the fact that they wait until he DIES to bash him. It's funny that this guy is giving out advice to bodybuilders.

Yeah, then there's their supplement line, Biotest. I love how all their stuff "feels like deca." Yeah, "When I was on androsol, my dog was afraid of me because I was bursting with testosterone." Alrighty stud.

Let's not forget that they are hypocrites. Brock Strasser bashes Pat Arnold for overhyping his new product (1-AD), but, hello, like Biotest isn't overhyped just a bit? Oh, that's right, it feels just like real steroids. My bad. And what about their tribulus product? Too bad there's not actually enough active ingredient to affect a mouse, much less a human.

Sorry, if you enjoy their mag, then continue reading it. But I think they are a bunch of hypocritical liars. It's sad they think they are so "hardcore." And any time I've ever emailed them, their responce was just trying to get me to buy some crÃ*ppy Biotest products.

Iron

Lost_Disciple

07-21-2001, 10:01 AM

Well, he's got both a torn bicep and a pec- if you look you can see. I will say it's a lame looking pic.
If you read the Mentzer article then you'll realize he slagged them right before he died and they were mostly b*tching about not getting a chance to retort.
On top of all that, I think the crap they wrote about Dan Duchaine was totally messed up.
I know Poliquin left them, and that kind've should've been a clue that it wouldn't be the same as when it started.
I didn't see the over-hyping bit. Their site is sponsored by Biotest, and yes there are advertisements; but they're easy to pick out & skip.
If you've ever read their articles about the Lion's Den, they say some stuff that ticked me off- kissed waaay too much bootie and acted like Lion's Den was the only serious martial art school in the world.
I've never been asked to try anything from Biotest when I wrote them; but I've already bought some Md-6 from them. MD6 showed a lot better results than Xenadrine and other ECA stacks that spiked my heart rate and energy levels a lot more. Had to stop taking it because of some drug interaction with some medication I've been on.
I like the way they maintain their old articles. They also had a nice interview with Pavel and put a lot of training info from him on there. They've got a lot of nice training info on there and detail a ton of different diets.

BTW- I usually only read stuff from Shugart and Patterson, a guy I know up here at school has known Shugart a long time.

For all their faults, they've got a bunch of valuable info; if you don't mind overlooking some bs. I understand if you don't like them. Do you know of any better sites that have as deep and varied a body of articles and info? I'm always looking for new sites for info. Admittedly, I don't know a lot and I'm not real good at distinguishing fraud from the real stuff. You know a lot more than me and I respect your advice

Lost_Disciple

07-21-2001, 10:04 AM

One more thing, TC's something like 6'4; so those arms very well could be 16 inches. There's another article where he says he's always been told he's got "chicken arms".

ged

07-21-2001, 02:54 PM

ok thanks guys for commenting on my stuff.

ive got one more point to clear up in my mind, then i think ill have this stuff down.

and the point is about toning.

i have always been told that to build muscle, you do low reps slowly. to tone the EXISTING muscle (not to build fast twitch fibres?) you do high reps, quickly.

but if you have to build the two types of muscle fibres separately, then your not really toning the muscle then are you? your creating new muscle entirely.

so, is fast twitch the same as toning

and if not, what does fast twitch muscle look like? is it the flabby stuff? or tight stuff?

hopefully someone can interpret what im on about

thanks

Lost_Disciple

07-21-2001, 09:52 PM

Think I'll let IronFist take the lionshare on this one. I covered it a bit in my last post.

In a nutshell though:

Size comes from training to failure and proper nutrition.

High speed lifting with high reps doesn't really accomplish much, rather high speed with high weight (not so many reps) should build fast twitch.

Nutrition has more to do with whether or not you look flabby or tight. I think people who focus more on slow-twitch fibers tend to have less mass and maybe more cuts- the slow pace being similar to isometric training.

Sprinters have fast twitch muscles; but so do power lifters. I think it's pretty well proven that fast twitch muscles lead to greater lean body mass (muscle), which means greater increases in Human Growth Hormone release, and also greater increases in metabolism.

Pavel talks against high rep exercise, as it leads to a condition where the muscles are always tense, similar to rigor mortis. This is a really bad summary of what he was talking about, so u might wanna check his book to find out.

Okay, that turned out a lot longer than I planned, but hope it helps. I'm pretty sure if I'm wrong on anything IronFist will clean it up for yo

ged

07-22-2001, 01:48 AM

thanks for that.

i know you guys have kind of covered this, and im sorry for bring it up again, but ive never really considered bodybuilding in terms of fast twitch slow twitch, instead just toning or bulk. so this is an entirely new concept for me.

ill try your method of fast raise, slow lower, and see where that takes me, with 6 to 8 reps.

so sprinters and powerlifters have fast twitch, what do bodybuilders have? and more importantly, do bodybuilders move fast? ive got this image, reinforced by my instructor's talk, that bodybuilders are slow.

Lost_Disciple

07-22-2001, 03:43 AM

Pretty muscle doesn't necessarily mean effective muscle.

It really depends on the bodybuilder, how they train, and their training goals. There a few competitive body builders who have absolutely no endurance whatsoever and thus no speed. But that's not the rule for people training with weights. Competition bodybuilders do a lot of isometrics when they pose. Nothing about the competition requires any speed. However, if you look at that Bak Mei guy from San Fran, Zhang Luo, he's huge, like Bolo Yeung's size. Ever seen Ken Shamrock? He doesn't seem to have any problems. It is feasible though that a lot of extra mass can get in the way of more intricate techniques.

I think weights can supplement your training. If done right, they can increase your strength. You really only gain a lot of weight if you want to. In the beginning phase, you may gain 10 or 15 pounds as your muscles become accustomed to weight training, however in order to continue gaining you actually have to gear your workouts and nutrition that way.

I've read somewhere that long rests in between sets, lifting heavy with few reps per sets but more sets, and not going to failure will help you get strong without putting on weight or becoming overtrained like a lot of "high rep" people. Your work out would look something like 6 to 8 sets of 1 to 2 reps, all heavy, none done to failure with at least a minute and a half rest between each set.

Back to your question though, I'd always heard that fast twitch muscles can grow the largest, so I wouldn't be suprised if a lot of bodybuilders focused solely on fast twitch. As Pavel likes to say, Bodybuilders largely have "fake" muscles, or muscles with no functional purpose.

You'll probably get a lot of slow twitch training in your kung fu in the form of horse stance or isometrics done in forms (not sure what style you are). I'd recommend supplementing this with fast twitch training to complete the picture, so to speak.

I'm not used to talking fast twitch vs. slow twitch either. I usually balance size, fat burning, power, and endurance. Kung fu gives you a lot of endurance, but sometimes you may want some extra power, or more muscle mass. I also think weights and western training are better at burning fat, but that's a personal preference. The idea of "toning" so to speak is considered outdated by most weight trainers these days. Lifting heavy burns more calories than doing a ton of reps, it also speeds up your metabolism much faster. Your diet makes more of a difference than anything anyway in getting slimmer AND getting bigger.

Read the threads on protein if u want some more diet info. Actually, there are a bunch of threads that talk about diet.

Just hope all this helps. I don't claim to be an expert, so find some good research by some experts on the 'net if you can

IronFist

07-22-2001, 05:08 AM

Two things really quick. I didn't have a chance to read everyone's responces, but i'll be back on later to finish these replies.

1: Lost_Disciple: Size is related to nutrition as you said, however, training to failure isn't always required. Lee Priest never trains to failure :) But you're right in saying that the volume required to gain size is high (hence the trianing to failure).

@: Lost_Disciple again: Check out www.anabolicextreme.com. (http://www.anabolicextreme.com.) Their articles are fewer per issue, but the issues come out each friday. There are a few years of back issues to read, too. A lot of the site deals with steroids, but a lot doesn't as well, so if that's not your thing, skip those articles (even tho I read them because I find them interesting).

Additionally, they have two message boards: Extreme forum (the steroid board, I don't go there much) and the TNT board, which is related to training and everything else. The people there are infinately more knowledgable than those at t-mag, and while most of them are Bodybuilders, they still know quite a bit about trianing nutrition etc.

Iron

Lost_Disciple

07-22-2001, 05:24 AM

Thanks a lot for the link! :)
I wanna check it out right now, but I'm supposed to be studying for my History midterm. hehe
Probably get to it after Tuesday.

shaolin_knight

07-23-2001, 12:22 AM

Lost Disciple, do you have Pavel's book Power to the People? Get it. It sounds like you are interested in his methods. When I say use cycling, I'm talking about the kind of cycling that Pavel talks about in his book. I didn't like it at first, but now I love it (because of the gains in pounds). To Ironfist, about working the chest, I don't work my chest really. I like the side press. I did a variation of the curl that worked my chest a little, but not much. I don't see a point it working my chest. I can go from lying down to standing up just by pushing myself up fast. So I figure I have all the chest strength I need. Why do you think people need strength in the bench press? For me, I like to hit a heavy bag. And those side presses seem to have improved my punching power a lot. My shoulders are rock hard. I train as a martial artist though. You know more about bodybuilding, weight training, diet, and all that other stuff. That's what's cool about the Training and Health forum. You learn new stuff! Of course, I care about how I look too, and I don't eat a lot of fatty foods. Deadlift, side press, some ab training, and kung fu training keep me looking how I want to look. Keep up the good posts everyone. :)

Lost_Disciple

07-23-2001, 01:06 AM

I've wanted Pavel's book for a while; but my the average of my 2 bank accounts right now is $0.00 (negative $40 and positive $40) and all my credit cards are maxed out. Ohhh the life of a college student.

BTW Could you describe the side press? I don't know this exercise offhand.

IronFist

07-23-2001, 02:36 AM

Lost_Disciple, I was in the process of writing a long reply to you when my computer froze (again). I'm too pÃ¬ssed to write the whole thing again, so I'm just going to retype the most important part.

I know, getting annoyed easily is a bad characteristic for MA, but my computer tends to freeze on my in the middle of long posts, sometiems I type them in notepad so I can save every few minutes, and the copy and paste them here, but on my last post I was like "nah, I don't think it would freeze." But after typing for like 30 minutes, Winamp stopped and the mouse cursor froze. Crape! Anyhoo, enough bÃ¬tching, here's what I had to say.

Your work out would look something like 6 to 8 sets of 1 to 2 reps, all heavy, none done to failure with at least a minute and a half rest between each set.

According to Pavel, one and a half minutes rest inbetween sets would be too little, and would thus promote bulk. I think instead a workout would be like 2 sets, or 5 reps, 3-5 minute rest (that's the basis for Pavels' PTP workout). Not going to failure keeps you from being as sore the next day.

Anyway, all the other stuff I had typed was either elaborating on what you said, or agreeing with you, or bashing a few mainstream ideas. Nothing too important.

If my computer freezes before I post this I'm going postal.

Iron

Lost_Disciple

07-23-2001, 03:58 AM

Don't worry about it, I get ****ed all the time, oh wait, I'm not a good martial artist. Ah well. :)

I only said 1.5 minutes cuz there was a recommendation I read somewhere that resting 30 to 90 seconds between sets will keep your workout somewhat aerobic, build endurance, and trim more fat. I agree that 3 to 5 would be a lot better.

Maybe you should get another, smaller mp3 player. I dunno, how old's your comp?

Got kicked out of the wrestling/martial arts room today by the aerobics people who wear their tennis shoes and tear up the expensive wrestling mats; finished maybe half my workout. grrr