Loy Lau Hoi Sung, Lut Sau Jik Chung.

[kung fu fighter]

Is the concept of Retain what comes in, send off what retreats, Rush in on loss of contact only used when sticking to an opponent in close range or is it for closing distance with an opponent when no contact already exist through stepping?

[Buddha_Fist]

Strategy for how to engage the exchange. No "sticking"...

[LoneTiger108]

One of the most used and misinterpreted piece of original Wing Chun Kuen Kuit out there!!

This is an actual 'practise' not a strategy. It isn't supposed to be used as a general saying to encompass everything in Wing Chun. It has a specific time and place to be served up to a student from my limited experience :)

[Buddha_Fist]

One of the most used and misinterpreted piece of original Wing Chun Kuen Kuit out there!!

This is an actual 'practise' not a strategy. It isn't supposed to be used as a general saying to encompass everything in Wing Chun. It has a specific time and place to be served up to a student from my limited experience :)

How you train and what you see/understand determines how you move.

We train to attain habits that follow certain strategies and that will determine how we act under pressure in a confrontation. These strategies repeat themselves in all the drills we do (they have to for the above to work), and this starts right from the beginning. Punch down for a variety of reasons, even weight distribution for balanced footwork, intercepting instead of moving back and forth, use of footwork to allow for flanking and limiting the opponent's options (intercepting, persuing, etc.), etc.

[k gledhill]

How you train and what you see/understand determines how you move.

We train to attain habits that follow certain strategies and that will determine how we act under pressure in a confrontation. These strategies repeat themselves in all the drills we do (they have to for the above to work), and this starts right from the beginning. Punch down for a variety of reasons, even weight distribution for balanced footwork, intercepting instead of moving back and forth, use of footwork to allow for flanking and limiting the opponent's options (intercepting, pursuing, etc.), etc.


good post.

[Phil Redmond]

One of the most used and misinterpreted piece of original Wing Chun Kuen Kuit out there!!
Ok, please enlighten us.


. . . This is an actual 'practise' not a strategy.
Why can't it be both?


. . .It has a specific time and place to be served up to a student from my limited experience :)
At least you're honest. :)

[LoneTiger108]

Ok, please enlighten us.

I wouldn't even try Phil as you all know so much already :)


Why can't it be both?

If you want strategies, go buy a copy of the Sun Tzu!! It can't be both because it isn't both according to my understanding. It is a simple training method which has it's time andplace in learning. That's all. And before anyone else starts with the insults, yes my understanding will be different than most because my learning was different than most.

I've asked this time and time again on this forum with regards to this specific line, which is just a single paired couplet that belongs to a far bigger piece of Kuit. So, in short, if you can't tell me what is before and after this example why should I even bother trying to explain what I know??!

And FWIW I have always been honest here Phil. I don't like liars and Wing Chun can really do with more truth seekers imho.

[LoneTiger108]

We train to attain habits that follow certain strategies and that will determine how we act under pressure in a confrontation.

A habitual practice, yes I agree. To develop good habits for fighting, yes to a point. But it is a method. That's all.


These strategies repeat themselves in all the drills we do (they have to for the above to work)

No they shouldn't, especially this specific METHOD.

I will give you all an example:

I 'create' a hole for you to charge into as a trap, do you still charge in? THAT is a strategy, and that is not why we have all heard this line! We have heard it because the echo of past Sifus is somehow haunting us!! As elders, you would have created the same holes during specific practise to 'teach this method'. No? Not to set a trap for your student to fall into!! Well, some Sifus do like the bully boy tactic I know, but this is just wrong and bad for us all as a whole imho.

It is normally linked to the forward pressure analogy, and if you want it's purpose it is to teach single interactive rotations of the seed (what you all call 'dan chisau!'). Man, I'm normally the one to over complicate things, yet here we are...

[Buddha_Fist]

A habitual practice, yes I agree. To develop good habits for fighting, yes to a point. But it is a method. That's all.

:confused:




No they shouldn't, especially this specific METHOD.

I will give you all an example:

I 'create' a hole for you to charge into as a trap, do you still charge in? THAT is a strategy, and that is not why we have all heard this line! We have heard it because the echo of past Sifus is somehow haunting us!! As elders, you would have created the same holes during specific practise to 'teach this method'. No? Not to set a trap for your student to fall into!! Well, some Sifus do like the bully boy tactic I know, but this is just wrong and bad for us all as a whole imho.

There's no time for Chi-Sao games. It's about punching power, swift footwork, taking opportunities, not allowing for opportunities, etc. Loi Lao Hoi Sung Lat Sao Jik Chung is built into how we move/act.


It is normally linked to the forward pressure analogy, and if you want it's purpose it is to teach single interactive rotations of the seed (what you all call 'dan chisau!'). Man, I'm normally the one to over complicate things, yet here we are...

:confused:

At least you're aware of it.

[k gledhill]

:confused:




There's no time for Chi-Sao games. It's about punching power, swift footwork, taking opportunities, not allowing for opportunities, etc. Loi Lao Hoi Sung Lat Sao Jik Chung is built into how we move/act.



:confused:

At least you're aware of it.



I tried to reply too, but felt it a waste of finger pressure. Spencer believes there are 3 tan sao's for 3 levels....I have to walk away from that one. :D

[LoneTiger108]

I tried to reply too, but felt it a waste of finger pressure. Spencer believes there are 3 tan sao's for 3 levels....I have to walk away from that one. :D

Aww Kev you let me down! ;) What's the matter? Having trouble understanding another point of view like 'Buddha Fist'?

[LoneTiger108]

There's no time for Chi-Sao games. It's about punching power, swift footwork, taking opportunities, not allowing for opportunities, etc. Loi Lao Hoi Sung Lat Sao Jik Chung is built into how we move/act.

This post of yours says it all for me.

Unfortunately you sound like you are on an unimpressionable path so don't waste my time.

PLEASE tell me what Lut Sao (lutsau) is referring to and THEN tell me "There's no time for Chi-Sao games" :o

Sadly ignorance seems to be alive in this thread and for once it isn't my doing...

Tell me which line here is LLHS LSJC :D

詠春拳訣

詠春絕技　源自少林　招無虎鶴　法無五行
只談線位　力與角度　同門技力　四位三度
以弱勝強　始是功夫　內外相消　並無絕招
蓄勁似蛇　發勁似貓　朝形似雞　陰陽發力
不行心意　只用精神　來留去送　甩手直沖
梅花五點　手腳互通　門分內外　手有生死
勁發六合　力從地起　發勁在腰　出招在膊
力未還原　切忌出手　寸內發勁　力有對錯
發盡散盡　散盡發盡　力有八種　當知分間
真假虛實　蓄谷鬆散　線有安危　主分內外
頂位定位　得不追手　拳入三關　任我行走
馬有五敗　十者九壞　演挾跪撐　攤身最慣
敵手行橋　必須落馬　蹬腰作勢　為搶內門
上不過膊　中不過爭　下三路手　以腳消腳
擺放有威　打須有勢　三角朝形　線守分明
橋行中線　指尾垂地　正身子午　側身爭底
兩點之間　直線最短　轉馬朝形　以圓化直
敵壓三關　以橫打直　拳有三尖　掌有三角
有身打身　無身打頸　怕打終打　貪打防空
以攻為守　以守為攻　追形接打　變化無窮
三樁三拳　步手身全　地腳梅花　木人紅船
念頭主守　尋橋打手　追形之始　求諸標指
旁邊輔助　箭槌八種　走馬斜角　幡龍跳躍
固定標步　半全起腳　練力之法　階段五重
鬆沉穩勁　清脆玲瓏　先鬆後緊　再緊後鬆
鬆鬆緊緊　循環不窮　邪行仇念　正用精神
假想有敵　不可用心　意投於外　一點精神
反覆練習　配合由勤　手腳屬我　控制隨心
升肩聳膊　氣提不利　意沉身穩　高低無忌
發力出招　必第一下　手腳發力　與身無關
力無定位　喉嚨爭膊　嘴不閉氣　力發無形
動靜無礙　語出如寧　拳爭掌膊　也可傷人
中路邊欄　拋橋窒手　詠春八手　皆可攻守
標圈伏綁　綑刮耕攤　可從中破　綑手橫攔
綁有正錯　錯非真錯　按頭屹尾　按尾屹頭
中間綁起　有影無形　武欲精通　唯從苦練
先成後化　先化後成　刀切雖齊　墨守成規
藝能巧變　將形補位　因緣各就　殊途同歸

And this is just a little example of what is already out there dude...

[k gledhill]

Aww Kev you let me down! ;) What's the matter? Having trouble understanding another point of view like 'Buddha Fist'?

Lets just say we dont share ideas.

[Buddha_Fist]

I tried to reply too, but felt it a waste of finger pressure. Spencer believes there are 3 tan sao's for 3 levels....I have to walk away from that one. :D

Sigh... I fell for it... Shame on me...

[Graham H]

Come on guys! You are arguing with a member of the original secret ving tsun society. Spencer has been fortunate enough to learn things that we have not been exposed to. His lineage has been accepted into the special circle. Of course there are three levels of tan sau. You must be silly to think that you can know the "real" meaning of LSJC. We are mere mortals. I have seen the error of my ways and accept the fact that Spencer Devine is a living legend and I will never disagree with him again.

See I was in a shop that sold ancient chinese gung fu artifacts and this old man came through the blinds, took me into a back room and exposed me to the real history of Ving Tsun. Bizarrely enough EVERYTHING is as Spencer says. He took me to a time in the past where I was taught real Martial Arts. On my return I promised to spread my message and show people the light. I was promised three things if I complete my mission.....

1. I will be able to generate electricty through my finger tips.
2. have the ability to spontaeously combust at will.
3. Fly through the air during swordplay.

Once I have completed these tests a corrupt former monk will host a tournament of Martial Arts on a secret island where I will be able to show off my skills. My Teacher is also immortal and has a special relationship with the ancestors (spencer will know what I'm on about).

So my message to you guys is back off! Leave Spencer alone! We can learn some valuable things from him.

The End!

Graham "hidden monkey, ***** turtle" H

[anerlich]

Watch out Graham, he'll post at you in Chinese ideograms, just like he did with poor Buddha Fist.

[WC1277]

WC1277---- Think of it this way, when you shift gears on a standard transmission how many movements is it? Foot off the gas and clutch in, shift gears, clutch out and back on the gas. Three movements. The same with the keystone function. The body absorbs force and takes away the power i.e. the clutch takes away the power of the engine. The body, with proper structure, returns along the same path i.e. the gear replaces the same spot the previous gear was in. The body now exerts a more powerful force due to the combination of momentum and stored energy i.e. clutch released with foot on gas. Three movements. Forward intent....---- WC1277
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joy ---- Well put. Also blends with one of the best wing chun kuen kuit--stay with what comes, accompany it when it leaves.

Not a technique but a tool for skill development. ----Joy

[LoneTiger108]

Come on guys! You are arguing with a member of the original secret ving tsun society. Spencer has been fortunate enough to learn things that we have not been exposed to. His lineage has been accepted into the special circle. Of course there are three levels of tan sau. You must be silly to think that you can know the "real" meaning of LSJC. We are mere mortals. I have seen the error of my ways and accept the fact that Spencer Devine is a living legend and I will never disagree with him again.

See I was in a shop that sold ancient chinese gung fu artifacts and this old man came through the blinds, took me into a back room and exposed me to the real history of Ving Tsun. Bizarrely enough EVERYTHING is as Spencer says. He took me to a time in the past where I was taught real Martial Arts. On my return I promised to spread my message and show people the light. I was promised three things if I complete my mission.....

1. I will be able to generate electricty through my finger tips.
2. have the ability to spontaeously combust at will.
3. Fly through the air during swordplay.

Once I have completed these tests a corrupt former monk will host a tournament of Martial Arts on a secret island where I will be able to show off my skills. My Teacher is also immortal and has a special relationship with the ancestors (spencer will know what I'm on about).

So my message to you guys is back off! Leave Spencer alone! We can learn some valuable things from him.

The End!

Graham "hidden monkey, ***** turtle" H

:D One of the funniest things I've read on here over the years!

Pity you're still a knob :p