CSL Sparring Clip

[Alan Orr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP-DdxkEV0Y

Nice of Clip of my student Sai sparring with Andy.

[k gledhill]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP-DdxkEV0Y

Nice of Clip of my student Sai sparring with Andy.

Sure you posted the right clip, it looks like two guys boxing with low round kicks....;)

[Phil Redmond]

Sure you posted the right clip, it looks like two guys boxing with low round kicks....;)
My Wing Chun uses low and mid-level round kicks and you do the best you can with gloves on. At least they are mixing it up for real. More Wing Chun people should mix it up then we'll all be united regarding fighting someone trying to hit you for real. But it seems as if most WC people are stuck on demos with compliant partners thinking they are doing a real "martial" art.

[Phil Redmond]

I'd be willing to put money on the fact that most of the famous names in the Wing Chun community have never fought extensively against resisting opponents. And if they did or do they wouldn't be pulling off the "Wing Chun" techniques non fighters expect to see in a "real" fight.

[Alan Orr]

Sure you posted the right clip, it looks like two guys boxing with low round kicks....;)


It is two guys boxing. CSL Wing Chun Chinese Boxing Skills. This is our wing chun! We train we real pressure, not just demos or head guards where you can hot without any defence. We have all sort of kicks in wig chun, it is kung fu, kicks are not limited. The skill of the punching and kicking is the art not the training drills.

[Graham H]

I agree and thats why I call beef stew, fish and chips...............curry i call chicken kung po and why I call my cat a dog. Same thing really.

Wing Chun today is fundamentally any system that incorporates the names SLT, CK, BJ etc even though the meaning and reasons behind these forms can be totally different. Just because you guys put that into competitions you think it justifies whatever you want to call it............namely Wing Chun. If I wanted to learn how to kick box and I lived in your area then maybe your scholl would be a good choice but I don't. I like to practice Wing Chun which isnt what I see in your videos and the way you explain it contradicts everything I think. If I was to come to your school and you asked me if I had any previous MA experience I would have to say yes mainly Wing Chun and then I would have to spend the next weeks, months, years relearning a totally different menthod but still say I practice Wing Chun. Does that make sense?

Call it Alan Orr mixed martial arts but calling it Wing Chun is wrong. Its not Wing Chun its kickboxing. Whether it works or not is irrelevant and just because you guys have trophies and fight cards does not add weight to anything.

A student of yours contacted me last year as he was interested in learning the WSLPB method and though e mails and conversations I concuded that he knew as much about Wing Chun as I know about quantum physics. Although I never got to have an opinion about his fighting skills as he never turned up. He may have beat me into the wall but he still knows nothing about Wing Chun. Bit like you really.

The time you waste replying to this Alan could be better spent doing other things so don't bother. I tend not to log on anymore because I can't stand to see what a farce Wing Chun has become from the lies of you, BoneTiger and Phil Redmond.

So why you guys are posting videos of stuff and stroke each others ego and have pops at Kevin Gledhill when to me he is one of a small group of people on this forum who actually makes sense I have better things to do like watch the paint dry.

Toodle pip!

G

[Jansingsang]

It is two guys boxing. CSL Wing Chun Chinese Boxing Skills. This is our wing chun! We train we real pressure, not just demos or head guards where you can hot without any defence. We have all sort of kicks in wig chun, it is kung fu, kicks are not limited. The skill of the punching and kicking is the art not the training drills.

All i see here is two guys doing kickboxing Imho there is no concepts of the wing chun at play here. As for the kicks these types don't exist within wing chun or there be in the forms nothing more to add here

[Alan Orr]

I agree and thats why I call beef stew, fish and chips...............curry i call chicken kung po and why I call my cat a dog. Same thing really.

Wing Chun today is fundamentally any system that incorporates the names SLT, CK, BJ etc even though the meaning and reasons behind these forms can be totally different. Just because you guys put that into competitions you think it justifies whatever you want to call it............namely Wing Chun. If I wanted to learn how to kick box and I lived in your area then maybe your scholl would be a good choice but I don't. I like to practice Wing Chun which isnt what I see in your videos and the way you explain it contradicts everything I think. If I was to come to your school and you asked me if I had any previous MA experience I would have to say yes mainly Wing Chun and then I would have to spend the next weeks, months, years relearning a totally different menthod but still say I practice Wing Chun. Does that make sense?

Call it Alan Orr mixed martial arts but calling it Wing Chun is wrong. Its not Wing Chun its kickboxing. Whether it works or not is irrelevant and just because you guys have trophies and fight cards does not add weight to anything.

A student of yours contacted me last year as he was interested in learning the WSLPB method and though e mails and conversations I concuded that he knew as much about Wing Chun as I know about quantum physics. Although I never got to have an opinion about his fighting skills as he never turned up. He may have beat me into the wall but he still knows nothing about Wing Chun. Bit like you really.

The time you waste replying to this Alan could be better spent doing other things so don't bother. I tend not to log on anymore because I can't stand to see what a farce Wing Chun has become from the lies of you, BoneTiger and Phil Redmond.

So why you guys are posting videos of stuff and stroke each others ego and have pops at Kevin Gledhill when to me he is one of a small group of people on this forum who actually makes sense I have better things to do like watch the paint dry.

Toodle pip!

G

Excellent post!! Just shows you have no idea of how 'training' wing chun becomes a applied Chinese boxing system. I have said this so many times. Our forms and Chi Sao are training for application. You don't see a boxer bring a speed ball or heavy bag into the ring.

Keep up your demo training lol

I will be posting a lot more clips and training questions. If you hate them so much them don't want them! I have lots of emails from people saying they love them - real wing chun - real understanding - not just chain punching dummys.

One or my students contacted you haha got a name? At least I can answer that then. Otherwise it means nothing. Most my students would have no idea what you talk about for sure. We teach wing chun thats different to you.

So if you if its not wing chun that you know, it must be wrong and not wing chun... right of course.

[Alan Orr]

All i see here is two guys doing kickboxing Imho there is no concepts of the wing chun at play here. As for the kicks these types don't exist within wing chun or there be in the forms nothing more to add here

Not all wing chun is a move from a form.

The principles of wing chun are fist and hip connection. Structure of power development. Weight control. Some things are hard to see if you do not train that way. Timing of movement.

Try to grow passed the 'where is bong and tan' they teach you your awareness of position - not blocks. When you are in close you will clinch and guide with the correct line for movement if you understand the shapes of wing chun. Problem is a lot of wing chun people are not sparring and testing.

[Alan Orr]

I'd be willing to put money on the fact that most of the famous names in the Wing Chun community have never fought extensively against resisting opponents. And if they did or do they wouldn't be pulling off the "Wing Chun" techniques non fighters expect to see in a "real" fight.

Your right Phil 100%

[Alan Orr]

Graham h -

I like to practice Wing Chun which isnt what I see in your videos and the way you explain it contradicts everything I think. If I was to come to your school and you asked me if I had any previous MA experience I would have to say yes mainly Wing Chun and then I would have to spend the next weeks, months, years relearning a totally different menthod but still say I practice Wing Chun. Does that make sense?


Alan - No it does not make sense. What I explain contradicts everything you think - So what? You have proved what? You know what? You train with who?

Yes you would have to relearn everything if you came to my school as what I teach is based on dealing with real pressure from real fighters.

We have the Chi Sao event at seni this year, why not enter? If you have good wing chun you should be able to hold you own under some pressure right?

[Buddha_Fist]

We have the Chi Sao event at seni this year, why not enter? If you have good wing chun you should be able to hold you own under some pressure right?

Why do a drill competition to begin with? The different lineages use Chi Sao as a platform to train different things, even though it may look somewhat similar. It's like matching up two boxers of different clubs in a jumping jack competition. If fighting is the end goal of all of your training and drills, what at the end matters, the bottom line, then why waste time on a competition based on a drill? You can argue all what you want about jumping jacks or Chi-Sao being elemental to training and about their significance, but it does not change the bottom line.

[Sean66]

I agree, Buddha Fist. Chi sao competitions are pointless.

Here is what they turn into here in France:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqhwhZ30qLE

[Alan Orr]

Why do a drill competition to begin with? The different lineages use Chi Sao as a platform to train different things, even though it may look somewhat similar. It's like matching up two boxers of different clubs in a jumping jack competition. If fighting is the end goal of all of your training and drills, what at the end matters, the bottom line, then why waste time on a competition based on a drill? You can argue all what you want about jumping jacks or Chi-Sao being elemental to training and about their significance, but it does not change the bottom line.

Good post in terms of your point. Chi Sao is a very advance level of developing from drills to application level. It is the bridge between the two.

So if your chi sao skill should be able too control some pressure and keep balance and structure.

The idea of the event is to test basics on the same terms. Just as BJJ is not the same as MMA. Striking changes BJJ applications, but BJJ still works. Its different with the Gi and without, but in the end its all ways to grow.

Wing Chun often has people telling your wrong and their right. But in the end if you have way to prove that then its pointless.

My guys have done that in MMA, Boxing, kickboxing and Chi Sao events. Some may say wing chun is for the street etc etc all cool. But beating unskilled people is not a good test or fighting on the street is not a great idea. Thats why most arts have controlled comps to test the basic of the systems they train.

Not everyone wants to train for that level of sport combat. So the Chi Sao event is a good way for more people to have a chance to test and like. The people who entered last time loved it. Only a few guys on the sidelines had negative things to say.

[Alan Orr]

I agree, Buddha Fist. Chi sao competitions are pointless.

Here is what they turn into here in France:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqhwhZ30qLE

I think head guards change the game too much. but at least they are trying.

These are from the last event -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDEPNCo8AbU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGiAoMQSRtQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaHpjNMb3sw&feature=related

In the end you don't have to like it. Its for some and not others.

[k gledhill]

I agree, Buddha Fist. Chi sao competitions are pointless.

Here is what they turn into here in France:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqhwhZ30qLE

Ugly.......

[couch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP-DdxkEV0Y

Nice of Clip of my student Sai sparring with Andy.

Enjoyed it. Would love to see him sparring again today - two years later! It'd be cool to see how his game has evolved.

It's good to see you mixing it up. Boxing/MT/MMA training is commonly lightyears ahead of TMA in terms of applicability and pressure testing. Evolve or die.

CTK

[Vajramusti]

Ugly.......
--------------------------
And terrible (referring to chi sao pic from France)

joy

[Alan Orr]

Enjoyed it. Would love to see him sparring again today - two years later! It'd be cool to see how his game has evolved.

It's good to see you mixing it up. Boxing/MT/MMA training is commonly lightyears ahead of TMA in terms of applicability and pressure testing. Evolve or die.

CTK


Yes Sai is really tough now. He has grown so much from CSL system and training. He has learned live outside the comfort zone.

[Buddha_Fist]

Good post in terms of your point. Chi Sao is a very advance level of developing from drills to application level. It is the bridge between the two.

So if your chi sao skill should be able too control some pressure and keep balance and structure.

The idea of the event is to test basics on the same terms. Just as BJJ is not the same as MMA. Striking changes BJJ applications, but BJJ still works. Its different with the Gi and without, but in the end its all ways to grow.

Wing Chun often has people telling your wrong and their right. But in the end if you have way to prove that then its pointless.

My guys have done that in MMA, Boxing, kickboxing and Chi Sao events. Some may say wing chun is for the street etc etc all cool. But beating unskilled people is not a good test or fighting on the street is not a great idea. Thats why most arts have controlled comps to test the basic of the systems they train.

Not everyone wants to train for that level of sport combat. So the Chi Sao event is a good way for more people to have a chance to test and like. The people who entered last time loved it. Only a few guys on the sidelines had negative things to say.

Basing again the whole argument on the premise of people using Chi-Sao with the same purpose, performing it in the same way, and that proving that the end result is reflected by that... Jumping jacks again... I know a lot of people that are awesome at Chi-Sao, yet have no clue about timing, distance, footwork, etc. when sparring. No need to over-complicate things, stick to the bottom line (fighting competition), it's that simple.

Now, does participating or winning in a MMA or other combat sport competition automatically attest to the level of your Wing Chun? No. It proves that you have sharpened your attributes (endurance, speed, timing, punching power, etc.) with whatever tools you are using and that they worked against specific individuals at a specific time of your martial art career. You can do that with whatever method/martial art you are using and can call your thing whatever you want. Whether it is in other people's mind good Wing Chun depends on whether you are following Wing Chun principles and its body mechanics, as well as the eye of the beholder. There is no need to justify here with words what you do. If it's good Ving Tsun, then people will recognize it as such. If people don't, suck it up and continue working hard on it. That's what a fighter does.

[Alan Orr]

Basing again the whole argument on the premise of people using Chi-Sao with the same purpose, performing it in the same way, and that proving that the end result is reflected by that... Jumping jacks again... I know a lot of people that are awesome at Chi-Sao, yet have no clue about timing, distance, footwork, etc. when sparring. No need to over-complicate things, stick to the bottom line (fighting competition), it's that simple.

Now, does participating or winning in a MMA or other combat sport competition automatically attest to the level of your Wing Chun? No. It proves that you have sharpened your attributes (endurance, speed, timing, punching power, etc.) with whatever tools you are using and that they worked against specific individuals at a specific time of your martial art career. You can do that with whatever method/martial art you are using and can call your thing whatever you want. Whether it is in other people's mind good Wing Chun depends on whether you are following Wing Chun principles and its body mechanics, as well as the eye of the beholder. There is no need to justify here with words what you do. If it's good Ving Tsun, then people will recognize it as such. If people don't, suck it up and continue working hard on it. That's what a fighter does.

And your point is what?

I posted a clip to share. People like it or not - no problem at all.

We have tested our system of wing chun on many levels. You can either see that or not. - no problem

You what to test chi sao with pressure or not - no problem

But people telling me its wrong, then I have to answer and question them.

I really don't have a problem with people not liking what we do. But you can't not tell me its not wing chun. Unless like graham you say its only wing chun if it doesn't work lol

[JPinAZ]

--------------------------
And terrible (referring to chi sao pic from France)

joy

To me, the chi sau clip looked like 2 beginners, so didn't look entirely 'terrible' if that's the case.
Hey, I have a clip of one of your more experienced students doing 'chi sau' where they teach, maybe I should post that up so we can compare? ;)

[Buddha_Fist]

And your point is what?

I posted a clip to share. People like it or not - no problem at all.

We have tested our system of wing chun on many levels. You can either see that or not. - no problem

You what to test chi sao with pressure or not - no problem

But people telling me its wrong, then I have to answer and question them.

I really don't have a problem with people not liking what we do. But you can't not tell me its not wing chun. Unless like graham you say its only wing chun if it doesn't work lol

Why can't people tell you what they see or don't see? That's the whole point of a forum, isn't it? No need to start misconstruing what others said to defend yourself or what you do. Graham never wrote that something is only Ving Tsun when it doesn't work.

[Alan Orr]

Why can't people tell you what they see or don't see? That's the whole point of a forum, isn't it? No need to start misconstruing what others said to defend yourself or what you do. Graham never wrote that something is only Ving Tsun when it doesn't work.

People can say what they like of course. I am only replying to the lack of understanding that some have. If I have never had first hand experience I don't post my opinions as it would lack meaning.

[trubblman]

. But you can't not tell me its not wing chun.

Oh yes one can tell you that it is NOT Wing Chun. If that's Wing Chun then the World Kickboxing Association is full of Wing Chun practitioners. And BTW if I may I would like to refute one point not made by you but another respondent:granted most Wing Chun, as well as most other martial arts, are practiced with a compliant partner. But even sparring is practicing with a compliant partner because your partner does not have the intent to cream you into smithereens. To me the argument that sparring makes one a better fighter is at best disingenuous. The more realistic you make practice the better it is. But unless you showing me that you are in an environment where your opponent has every intention beating the living snot out of you and putting you in the hospital, then I am going to call BS on the efficacy of sparring, to me the difference between doing drills and sparring is only a matter of degree of compliance. Even in the celebrated man-up-stand-up videos, the fighters are not fighting to seriously injure the other.

[WC1277]

I know for a fact that Wing Chun "can" look like Wing Chun in real fighting on many different levels. Structure, "sticking", trapping, timing, distance....the whole nine yards. This isn't boasting, just pointing out that I have seen and experienced it first hand.

Sport fighting does not blend with WC strategy and principles very well. There are many contraindications to the system. For example, I have a buddy who I spar with every now and then. I'll play the game with him, attack/withdrawal, because my goal isn't to really hurt him. But every now and then he gets out of hand. In those situations I usually don't withdrawal and end up hurting him because I'll explode into him the way you're supposed to with WC. Sport fighting is playing a game that is not your game, and the irony of it is that while people say that they're pressure testing, it's very obvious they're trying to avoid getting hit. WC doesn't work that way. If you withdrawal on your own without your opponent moving you back for you, you're playing their game, not yours.

Just look at nature to see how animals fight. Almost all of them stay put when fighting and only move back when they are "moved" back....

Most of you will probably think it's easy for me to say this in words and I understand that. But WC isn't for everyone and probably should be for far less people than it already is IMO...

[Alan Orr]

Oh yes one can tell you that it is NOT Wing Chun. If that's Wing Chun then the World Kickboxing Association is full of Wing Chun practitioners. And BTW if I may I would like to refute one point not made by you but another respondent:granted most Wing Chun, as well as most other martial arts, are practiced with a compliant partner. But even sparring is practicing with a compliant partner because your partner does not have the intent to cream you into smithereens. To me the argument that sparring makes one a better fighter is at best disingenuous. The more realistic you make practice the better it is. But unless you showing me that you are in an environment where your opponent has every intention beating the living snot out of you and putting you in the hospital, then I am going to call BS on the efficacy of sparring, to me the difference between doing drills and sparring is only a matter of degree of compliance. Even in the celebrated man-up-stand-up videos, the fighters are not fighting to seriously injure the other.


True depends on how hard you are sparring. But most guys who never spar are going to get their a-s kicked in any fight with a skilled ring fighter.

[Alan Orr]

I know for a fact that Wing Chun "can" look like Wing Chun in real fighting on many different levels. Structure, "sticking", trapping, timing, distance....the whole nine yards. This isn't boasting, just pointing out that I have seen and experienced it first hand.

Sport fighting does not blend with WC strategy and principles very well. There are many contraindications to the system. For example, I have a buddy who I spar with every now and then. I'll play the game with him, attack/withdrawal, because my goal isn't to really hurt him. But every now and then he gets out of hand. In those situations I usually don't withdrawal and end up hurting him because I'll explode into him the way you're supposed to with WC. Sport fighting is playing a game that is not your game, and the irony of it is that while people say that they're pressure testing, it's very obvious they're trying to avoid getting hit. WC doesn't work that way. If you withdrawal on your own without your opponent moving you back for you, you're playing their game, not yours.

Just look at nature to see how animals fight. Almost all of them stay put when fighting and only move back when they are "moved" back....

Most of you will probably think it's easy for me to say this in words and I understand that. But WC isn't for everyone and probably should be for far less people than it already is IMO...



Of course sparring has a level of give and take, just like chi sao has. I can play chi sao for hours or finished it in seconds. Sparring is the same, you can spar 5 rounds or you can try to finish them in the first round. That's a whole different level of pressure which is good to train at times. I chi sao light and hard, I spar light and hard. Its all part of learned and testing yourself its not a winning game. My point is if you don't do it you can't really have much to say about it. As you spar you have seen the pros an cons, which is good, thats the point.

I train BJJ and I would not like to be in my back in a real fight, but the BJJ gives me a whole different level of understanding fighting and the ground game. I've seen many times what happens to guys that think they can't be taken down and they would do this or that if it was for real. In fact they do the same - get taken down and tapped out. A choke means your dead. That very real.

[trubblman]

True depends on how hard you are sparring. But most guys who never spar are going to get their a-s kicked in any fight with a skilled ring fighter.

Glad you said most. That means there are some who will not. But seriously there's an advantage in sparring but IMO the advantages are not the compliance. The advantages are that sparring can tell your level of conditioning. Techniques dont matter if you are too tired. And most importantly you can work on timing when on sparring.

And the term skilled ring fighter is too broad to really mean anything. John Jones and Manny Pacquaio are skilled ring fighters. So are the the dudes in the WWF. So are the guys in the back alley boxing gym.

One area flaw I see in sparring is no matter what, there is rarely in any inter-martial arts sparring. Its easy for 2 Ving Tsun guys to spar, 2 boxing guys, 2 FMA guys to spar. It's rare that you see any real cross martial arts sparring ( including MMA which always seems to devolve into boxing, muay thai and grappling, so that no matter what the practitioners mother art is, all MMA fighters look the same.)

[Alan Orr]

Glad you said most. That means there are some who will not. But seriously there's an advantage in sparring but IMO the advantages are not the compliance. The advantages are that sparring can tell your level of conditioning. Techniques dont matter if you are too tired. And most importantly you can work on timing when on sparring.

And the term skilled ring fighter is too broad to really mean anything. John Jones and Manny Pacquaio are skilled ring fighters. So are the the dudes in the WWF. So are the guys in the back alley boxing gym.

One area flaw I see in sparring is no matter what, there is rarely in any inter-martial arts sparring. Its easy for 2 Ving Tsun guys to spar, 2 boxing guys, 2 FMA guys to spar. It's rare that you see any real cross martial arts sparring ( including MMA which always seems to devolve into boxing, muay thai and grappling, so that no matter what the practitioners mother art is, all MMA fighters look the same.)



When I say skilled ring fighter - I am of course talking about boxers, thai boxing, mma fighters and of any level. I have seen many times wing chun guys that can't spar or last pass only 30 seconds when hit hard and put under pressure.

My guys and I spar with guys from many martial art backgrounds. All MMA fighters look different to me. You can see lots of different fighting styles striking styles, grappling styles etc.

Sparring is not real fighting, but it gives the mental pressure to most people that they will never get doing drills alone.

[Jake104]

I know for a fact that Wing Chun "can" look like Wing Chun in real fighting on many different levels. Structure, "sticking", trapping, timing, distance....the whole nine yards. This isn't boasting, just pointing out that I have seen and experienced it first hand.

Sport fighting does not blend with WC strategy and principles very well. There are many contraindications to the system. For example, I have a buddy who I spar with every now and then. I'll play the game with him, attack/withdrawal, because my goal isn't to really hurt him. But every now and then he gets out of hand. In those situations I usually don't withdrawal and end up hurting him because I'll explode into him the way you're supposed to with WC. Sport fighting is playing a game that is not your game, and the irony of it is that while people say that they're pressure testing, it's very obvious they're trying to avoid getting hit. WC doesn't work that way. If you withdrawal on your own without your opponent moving you back for you, you're playing their game, not yours.

Just look at nature to see how animals fight. Almost all of them stay put when fighting and only move back when they are "moved" back....

Most of you will probably think it's easy for me to say this in words and I understand that. But WC isn't for everyone and probably should be for far less people than it already is IMO...

You are correct. It is far too easy just to be put into words. So where's your proof? Surely you must have many videos illustrating what you are claiming? Oh wait, I forgot. It is probably to deadly to be filmed. My bad. Well then go back to talking. Because we all know talking is a much better training method than sparring with pressure...

[trubblman]

You are correct. It is far too easy just to be put into words. So where's your proof? Surely you must have many videos illustrating what you are claiming? Oh wait, I forgot. It is probably to deadly to be filmed. My bad. Well then go back to talking. Because we all know talking is a much better training method than sparring with pressure...

Because surely the writer has to show you a video to convince YOU.

[Jake104]

Because surely the writer has to show you a video to convince YOU.

No he could show me in person since I am local :D..

[Phil Redmond]

I know for a fact that Wing Chun "can" look like Wing Chun in real fighting on many different levels. Structure, "sticking", trapping, timing, distance....the whole nine yards. This isn't boasting, just pointing out that I have seen and experienced it first hand. . .
Can you direct us to where you have seen Wing Chun look like Wing Chun in a real fight?
I know our fighters do the best they can against resisting opponents. We even have a fighter who pulled off a trap and knockout if a fight. But I'd like to see what you were referring to. Also, have you ever competed?

[trubblman]

No he could show me in person since I am local :D..

Oh really? Where are you?

[Jake104]

Oh really? Where are you?

In the corner . Can't you read? Where are you?

[trubblman]

In the corner . Can't you read? Where are you?

Baltimore, MD

[Jake104]

Baltimore, MD

So why you butting in then tough guy?

[trubblman]

So why you butting in then tough guy?

This is a forum. By definition a forum is a meeting place where people go to discuss things. It is not a private conversation. Therefore I am not butting in. There is a method to send private messages if that is your intent.

[Jake104]

This is a forum. By definition a forum is a meeting place where people go to discuss things. It is not a private conversation. Therefore I am not butting in. There is a method to send private messages if that is your intent.

My mistake it sounded as if you wanted to meet up with me and maybe catch a quick lunch or maybe a movie. Since you were so interested in where I live . Even know it's clearly seen in the upper right hand corner of my posts. My apologies for the misunderstanding . But if you are ever out in my neck of the woods . Please contact me ahead of time so I can see what is playing at my local Harkins. Thank you and have a great day

[jeetsao]

wc1277
"Sport fighting does not blend with WC strategy and principles very well"
Agree. The video is Kick boxing.

[Phil Redmond]

wc1277
"Sport fighting does not blend with WC strategy and principles very well"
Agree. The video is Kick boxing.
Whoa, just what a person who has never tried their WC against people outside of their Kwoon on a regular basis would say. A "good" Wing Chun man can blend do well in sport fighting. I know I did and so do students in other Wing Chun lineages. Yeah, I know, Wing Chun is too deadly for competitions :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Wow others see what it is clearly. You can fight with vt that looks exactly like you train, I know, crazy talk.

[Grumblegeezer]

My mistake it sounded as if you wanted to meet up with me and maybe catch a quick lunch or maybe a movie. Since you were so interested in where I live . Even know it's clearly seen in the upper right hand corner of my posts. My apologies for the misunderstanding . But if you are ever out in my neck of the woods . Please contact me ahead of time so I can see what is playing at my local Harkins. Thank you and have a great day

Jake, you internet warrior, give it up. Anybody can see you're way too cheap to spring for a movie.

BTW, bring your headgear to the park and I'm game to give it a try again. Or if you prefer I'll bring the Escrima gear! --The geez

[anerlich]

It's rare that you see any real cross martial arts sparring ( including MMA which always seems to devolve into boxing, muay thai and grappling, so that no matter what the practitioners mother art is, all MMA fighters look the same.)


The reason for what you call "devolution" may be because boxing MT and grappling actually work in the ring, while the others only seem to work in some of the fictional deadly streetfights and chi sao sparring sessions with straw men quoted here.

There's probably a local MMA comp you guys with the "highly evolved" arts can enter. It is open to all stylists. Enter and win, then criticize, otherwise STFU.


Sport fighting does not blend with WC strategy and principles very well

Roughly translated: The average WC practitioner will get his a$$ kicked up between his shoulder blades by the average sportfighter.


Most of you will probably think it's easy for me to say this in words and I understand that. But WC isn't for everyone and probably should be for far less people than it already is IMO...

I think WC is for you. It's the best style for making unsubstantiated claims of prowess on the internet.

Nice vid, Alan.

[Phil Redmond]

The reason for what you call "devolution" may be because boxing MT and grappling actually work in the ring, while the others only seem to work in some of the fictional deadly streetfights quoted here. . . .
Even though people get hurt in ring fights I guess they don't count Andrew.


. . .There's probably a local MMA comp you guys with the "highly evolved" arts can enter. It is open to all stylists. Enter and win, then criticize, otherwise STFU.. . .
Why would someone want to test their art in the most realistic way outside of fighting in the street? :rolleyes:


. . .Roughly translated: The average WC practitioner will get his a$$ kicked up between his shoulder blades by the average sportfighter. .
You and I both know why.



. .I think WC is for you. It allows you to say whatever you like on the web without having to back it up.
Gooooooal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUTzrMZVAAw&feature=related

[GlennR]

I know for a fact that Wing Chun "can" look like Wing Chun in real fighting on many different levels. Structure, "sticking", trapping, timing, distance....the whole nine yards. This isn't boasting, just pointing out that I have seen and experienced it first hand.

Sport fighting does not blend with WC strategy and principles very well. There are many contraindications to the system. For example, I have a buddy who I spar with every now and then. I'll play the game with him, attack/withdrawal, because my goal isn't to really hurt him. But every now and then he gets out of hand. In those situations I usually don't withdrawal and end up hurting him because I'll explode into him the way you're supposed to with WC. Sport fighting is playing a game that is not your game, and the irony of it is that while people say that they're pressure testing, it's very obvious they're trying to avoid getting hit. WC doesn't work that way. If you withdrawal on your own without your opponent moving you back for you, you're playing their game, not yours.

Just look at nature to see how animals fight. Almost all of them stay put when fighting and only move back when they are "moved" back....

Most of you will probably think it's easy for me to say this in words and I understand that. But WC isn't for everyone and probably should be for far less people than it already is IMO...


I was going to reply to this ,but Anerlich has probably said all that i was going to.

[Phil Redmond]

I was going to reply to this ,but Anerlich has probably said all that i was going to.
Yep . . . .:D

[WC1277]

Where did I say anything about WC being the king all, be all? Anerlich, Glenn, Phil, all you mma wannabes have no idea what you're talking about. Much less, what Wing Chun is and isn't! All I implied was that WC doesn't meld well with sport fighting. I didn't say it was 'more deadly' or better or whatever other threat to your manhood it could be. I don't know why it's such a hard concept to grasp. You can try all day trying to "make it work for you" in your supposed pressure testing. But that is not what WC is, I emphasize is not.

All WC is at the end of the day is structure. I don't think WC in action looks any more like chi sao than any of you do. But it does have a very specific structure. It's no different from Mike Tyson's uppercut or Ali's momentary rooted foot when he lands a KO punch. They're all examples of good structure. And that's it, that's all WC is, but it's a recognizeable structure. I can tell you right now, Phil's guys don't have it, Alan's guys don't have it(although he, himself has it sometimes), and there's a pretty **** good chance Glenn and Anerlich don't have it either. Their ignorance betrays them.

Guys like you are the ones who not only give WC a bad name trying to fit a square in a round hole but are also the perfect example of taking an "idea" and destroying it. If you want to "test" your "version" of WC, why don't you do it like the giants before you and ACTUALLY fight in real fights, otherwise go join the mma forum. I know I have a choice to be on this forum and I chose to be, but it doesn't mean the pathetic examples of WC practitioners doesn't get to me sometimes considering I've shared with all of you ideas that are more accurate and true with regards to WC than any of you will ever have the opportunity to hear.

So Good luck and enjoy your delusions...

[Jake104]

Jake, you internet warrior, give it up. Anybody can see you're way too cheap to spring for a movie.

BTW, bring your headgear to the park and I'm game to give it a try again. Or if you prefer I'll bring the Escrima gear! --The geez

Wow, why the sudden change of heart? For the last 7 mOnths you have been making excuses as to why sparring is to dangerous. Something about concussions and some study you read or seen on tv. The last few times Tiny and i sparred you wanted nothing to do with it. You sat on the sidelines and watched.
Now on a internet forum you act a different way? Come on bro, quit being fake.

This in a nutshell is the problem with WC. Way too many fakes. Wing Chun is a joke because legitamit folks who actually use there art like Phil , Allan and others are constantly blasted by the non fighting, nut riding, fan boy, fakes like yourself and others on these boards.

[LoneTiger108]

I tend not to log on anymore because I can't stand to see what a farce Wing Chun has become from the lies of you, BoneTiger and Phil Redmond.

Awww G!! You make me feel so sad. :(

I wasn't going to post on this thread, because although I respect Alan and what his guys are doing we are simply not on the same page with regards to our Wing Chun understanding. I think we have come to understand that of eachother and just avoid conversation!

BUT to even 'suggest' that I am a liar is a bit rich coming from you :eek:

I have never lied here, never will. And I would hope you haven't either because all we can all do is the best with the knowledge that our Sifus have shared with us. As honestly as we can.

Once you lose that you would lose everything.

So please, grow up man...

[trubblman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP-DdxkEV0Y

Nice of Clip of my student Sai sparring with Andy.

One of the problems with this vdo, is that however effective it looks as sparring -- and I will admit it is great practice for fighting -- I could have done this type of sparring without ever having gone to one martial arts class. For instance at 0:15 seconds what VT punch was that? To me that was your garden variety street type lean in straight punch.

[JPinAZ]

Wow, why the sudden change of heart? For the last 7 mOnths you have been making excuses as to why sparring is to dangerous. Something about concussions and some study you read or seen on tv. The last few times Tiny and i sparred you wanted nothing to do with it. You sat on the sidelines and watched.
Now on a internet forum you act a different way? Come on bro, quit being fake.

This in a nutshell is the problem with WC. Way too many fakes. Wing Chun is a joke because legitamit folks who actually use there art like Phil , Allan and others are constantly blasted by the non fighting, nut riding, fan boy, fakes like yourself and others on these boards.

Hey, sounds like I'm missing out out on all the fun! When andwhere do you guys get together? Have room for one more? :)

[Chadderz]

Well I think, and this is totally personal opinion of course, that a lot of Wing Chun practitioners have this notion of "form over function". So you will stick with your side-on goat stance, with your hands near your chest, thinking that no matter what comes, it won't get past your arms.

In reality of course, because you have never sparred with anybody ever, you have all this self confidence, and you promptly get pounded by somebody who HAS actually been hit in the head before. It's called pressure testing, and it is the most essential part of training for self-defence, by a mile.

Now because Alan is trying to actually apply WC to competition AND self defence you are all very unhappy because he found out that for practical purposes he dumped the (rather terrible) stance, and only uses it as a beginners training method.

What you, who claim to teach WC, should do, is actually spar REGULARLY, and see how much your style needs improving. THEN you should all go and spar with people from OTHER styles, and compare notes, and see what needs changing.

After you've done all this, please come back and post videos, because nothing would make me happier than seeing good WC working under pressure. (:

[GlennR]

Where did I say anything about WC being the king all, be all? Anerlich, Glenn, Phil, all you mma wannabes have no idea what you're talking about. Much less, what Wing Chun is and isn't! All I implied was that WC doesn't meld well with sport fighting. I didn't say it was 'more deadly' or better or whatever other threat to your manhood it could be. I don't know why it's such a hard concept to grasp. You can try all day trying to "make it work for you" in your supposed pressure testing. But that is not what WC is, I emphasize is not.

Oh grow up. Your story of the death match with your mate was all about implying that when you activate your deadly WC then the sport fighter doesnt have a chance. Incidentally, your understanding of sport fighting is ordinary at best from what you write.


All WC is at the end of the day is structure. I don't think WC in action looks any more like chi sao than any of you do. But it does have a very specific structure. It's no different from Mike Tyson's uppercut or Ali's momentary rooted foot when he lands a KO punch. They're all examples of good structure. And that's it, that's all WC is, but it's a recognizeable structure. I can tell you right now, Phil's guys don't have it, Alan's guys don't have it(although he, himself has it sometimes), and there's a pretty **** good chance Glenn and Anerlich don't have it either. Their ignorance betrays them.

Structure?? Really? Who would have thought.
Read my posts regarding Alan's style, even one from several years ago when everyone said it wasn't WC, and i said forget the strikes... watch his structure.
I show people at my MT/boxing gym the differences in application of the different structures.... application, you should try it sometime.
So i think i have a fair understanding as do Phil, Andrew and plenty of the guys that dont adhere to WC mantra like yourself.
Oh, and you dont understand Ali's punch either. Learn some boxing before you profess expertise.


Guys like you are the ones who not only give WC a bad name trying to fit a square in a round hole but are also the perfect example of taking an "idea" and destroying it. If you want to "test" your "version" of WC, why don't you do it like the giants before you and ACTUALLY fight in real fights, otherwise go join the mma forum. I know I have a choice to be on this forum and I chose to be, but it doesn't mean the pathetic examples of WC practitioners doesn't get to me sometimes considering I've shared with all of you ideas that are more accurate and true with regards to WC than any of you will ever have the opportunity to hear.

I'll quote John McEnroe here...... Are you serious???

So let me get this right (ill use me as an example but in sure the other wannabes" have similar stories), i walk into a MT gym 3-4 years ago to have a look and see what its all about. Tell them im a WC guy and can i join in. Take a class, then another and im into it.
Fast forward to now and obviously sparring is a large part of the focus. But here's the thing, im the guy that does things a bit differently, structures different (wow!) use of space is a bit different, clinch work is a bit different...... and its all WC.
And when these guys get kicked or punched, they get controlled in the clinch, and so on, they'll say "that WC's OK isn't it" or "i thought WC didn't work" or "i didn't think WC guys fight" or "how the hell did you do that?".

Seeing the light sunshine??
US "wannabes" arent the problem.... its delusional clowns like you that are
And as for this.."why don't you do it like the giants before you and ACTUALLY fight in real fights" ... i live in a civilised society where the only way to practice legally what im doing is what im doing now. And from some of the clips ive seen of the "giants era" ill stick with what im doing now.


So Good luck and enjoy your delusions...

No luck needed when you train hard and realistically pal.... oh, good luck

[anerlich]

If you want to "test" your "version" of WC, why don't you do it like the giants before you and ACTUALLY fight in real fights

I thought that was what Alan was doing.

I don't need to "test" any "version" of anything. I am quite happy with my WC training. I'm arguing with your claims and "epiphanies".

I am not making claims of being able to trounce a local MMA trainee who, for reasons of either masochism or pity, has taken on the doomed-for-disappointment task of befriending you. And for some reason extrapolating that out to being able to handle anyone from another style, pro fighters, soccer hooligans, criminals, the entire SAS regiment, etc.

I'm unlikely to seek fights at 57, and at the moment rather than trying to emulate the giants before me, I have my hands full dealing with the delusions of adequacy, and wholesale misunderstanding of MMA training and tactics, of the pygmies before me such as yourself.

Good luck with your deathmatches and streetfights! Find a good lawyer, insurance company and make sure you have top of the range medical cover. Maybe do some jail visitations now for when you need someone to watch your back on the inside later after the legal karma from all the corpses you leave on the pavement arena catches up with you.

Post your accomplishments on Youtube - get arrested and spend some time in prison where you'll really learn about keepin' it real as the supreme WC badass you must be because you beat up your amateur MMA-training friend!


Their ignorance betrays them.

Pots and kettles.

[WC1277]

Oh grow up. Your story of the death match with your mate was all about implying that when you activate your deadly WC then the sport fighter doesnt have a chance. Incidentally, your understanding of sport fighting is ordinary at best from what you write.

.

Structure?? Really? Who would have thought.
Read my posts regarding Alan's style, even one from several years ago when everyone said it wasn't WC, and i said forget the strikes... watch his structure.
I show people at my MT/boxing gym the differences in application of the different structures.... application, you should try it sometime.
So i think i have a fair understanding as do Phil, Andrew and plenty of the guys that dont adhere to WC mantra like yourself.
Oh, and you dont understand Ali's punch either. Learn some boxing before you profess expertise.



I'll quote John McEnroe here...... Are you serious???

So let me get this right (ill use me as an example but in sure the other wannabes" have similar stories), i walk into a MT gym 3-4 years ago to have a look and see what its all about. Tell them im a WC guy and can i join in. Take a class, then another and im into it.
Fast forward to now and obviously sparring is a large part of the focus. But here's the thing, im the guy that does things a bit differently, structures different (wow!) use of space is a bit different, clinch work is a bit different...... and its all WC.
And when these guys get kicked or punched, they get controlled in the clinch, and so on, they'll say "that WC's OK isn't it" or "i thought WC didn't work" or "i didn't think WC guys fight" or "how the hell did you do that?".

Seeing the light sunshine??
US "wannabes" arent the problem.... its delusional clowns like you that are
And as for this.."why don't you do it like the giants before you and ACTUALLY fight in real fights" ... i live in a civilised society where the only way to practice legally what im doing is what im doing now. And from some of the clips ive seen of the "giants era" ill stick with what im doing now.



No luck needed when you train hard and realistically pal.... oh, good luck

Like I said, you and your compatriots can go join the mma forum then. None of you have offered next to nothing as far as sharing actual WC knowledge on this forum. Just a bunch of little cry babies who only accept "pressure testing" i.e. sparring, sport fighting, as undeniable proof of effectiveness. Apparently no one can disagree with your "methods" of proving. Let me ask you something smart ass. Should a monster truck race in NASCAR? Should a NASCAR compete in a monster truck arena? Should a skateboarder use rollerblades in a skateboard contest? Should a rollerblader use a skateboard? Should professional baseball players use aluminum bats? Should swimmers be not allowed to shave? Should a gun be allowed at a knife fight? Should a samurai sword be allowed at fist fight?

Why don't any of these seemingly same catergory things go together genius? Just because WC uses fists and feet like your beloved mma doesn't mean it would fare well in an mma bout. Obviously it hasnt! Does that mean its worthless or ineffective because it's a negative in sport fighting? I guess NASCAR's should be called worthless then and everything else above I stated. Different tools for different games smart one. Instead of destroying and containdicting everything WC is, I'd rather keep my tool for its appropriate use. You're an idiot. It's no different from destroying your pocketknife to screw in a Phillips screw because you're too dumb to realize there's a thing called a screwdriver for that.

Like I said before....Good luck with your delusions....

[anerlich]

Just because WC uses fists and feet like your beloved mma doesn't mean it would fare well in an mma bout. Obviously it hasnt!

Obviously and evidently.


Does that mean its worthless or ineffective because it's a negative in sport fighting?

No one said it was. You basically said MMA, MT, and grappling were crap. When you got called on it you spazzed out with "you guys are idiots" and "none of you understand Wing Chun because you disagree with ME! WAAAAAHHHHH!"


Just a bunch of little cry babies

Holy crap, look who's talking.


Like I said, you and your compatriots can go join the mma forum then.

I think I'll stay here and push your buttons some more. Too easy.

[WC1277]

Obviously and evidently.



No one said it was. You basically said MMA, MT, and grappling were crap. When you got called on it you spazzed out with "you guys are idiots" and "none of you understand Wing Chun because you disagree with ME! WAAAAAHHHHH!"



Holy crap, look who's talking.

Where did I say mma was crap? Quote me then?

[anerlich]

I paraphrased. If you feel you've been misquoted, too bad for you.

You made a number of personal attacks and drew unfounded conclusions about people who disagreed with you, and then frothed at the mouth with that NASCAR / monster truck rubbish, so excuse me if I laugh at you for trying to claim some sort of higher moral ground, superior rhetorical skill, or precision in argument.

[GlennR]

]Like I said, you and your compatriots can go join the mma forum then.

Ok, so unless you are "pure" WC you cant be here? Genius.


None of you have offered next to nothing as far as sharing actual WC knowledge on this forum. Just a bunch of little cry babies who only accept "pressure testing" i.e. sparring, sport fighting, as undeniable proof of effectiveness. Apparently no one can disagree with your "methods" of proving. Let me ask you something smart ass. Should a monster truck race in NASCAR? Should a NASCAR compete in a monster truck arena? Should a skateboarder use rollerblades in a skateboard contest? Should a rollerblader use a skateboard? Should professional baseball players use aluminum bats? Should swimmers be not allowed to shave? Should a gun be allowed at a knife fight? Should a samurai sword be allowed at fist fight?

That is without a doubt the stupidest analogy ive heard on this forum. The fact that you cant actually relate to combat without resorting to some totally unrelated
topic shows how far removed from reality you are.


Why don't any of these seemingly same catergory things go together genius? Just because WC uses fists and feet like your beloved mma doesn't mean it would fare well in an mma bout. Obviously it hasnt! Does that mean its worthless or ineffective because it's a negative in sport fighting? I guess NASCAR's should be called worthless then and everything else above I stated. Different tools for different games smart one. Instead of destroying and containdicting everything WC is, I'd rather keep my tool for its appropriate use. You're an idiot. It's no different from destroying your pocketknife to screw in a Phillips screw because you're too dumb to realize there's a thing called a screwdriver for that.

I stand corrected.... THATS now the stupidest analogy ive heard on this forum.
Screwdrivers, pocket knifes??
Is this a wordworking class?

[Grumblegeezer]

Wow, why the sudden change of heart? For the last 7 mOnths you have been making excuses as to why sparring is to dangerous. Something about concussions and some study you read or seen on tv. The last few times Tiny and i sparred you wanted nothing to do with it. You sat on the sidelines and watched.
Now on a internet forum you act a different way? Come on bro, quit being fake.

This in a nutshell is the problem with WC...

OK, I'm gradually coming around to your point of view and you get all ticked off? Lighten up a bit. Seriously. There's enough negativity on this forum already. As for being a fake, naw. I'm the real thing... an authentic couch-potato these days, and not feeling too good about it!

[anerlich]

It's no different from destroying your pocketknife to screw in a Phillips screw

Many decent pocket knives and multifunction tools these days have perfectly serviceable Phillips head attachments.

Of course such implements are sneered at by the purists with REAL pocket knives.

Leatherman - the MMA heretic of the pocketknife world :rolleyes:

[GlennR]

Many decent pocket knives and multifunction tools these days have perfectly serviceable Phillips head attachments.

Of course such implements are sneered at by the purists with REAL pocket knives.

Leatherman - the MMA heretic of the pocketknife world :rolleyes:

Mmmmmmmmm, what lineage is that Leatherman from?

[SouthernGungFu]

Awww G!! You make me feel so sad. :(


So please, grow up man...

Sarcastic.

[Wayfaring]

Not all wing chun is a move from a form.

The principles of wing chun are fist and hip connection. Structure of power development. Weight control. Some things are hard to see if you do not train that way. Timing of movement.

Try to grow passed the 'where is bong and tan' they teach you your awareness of position - not blocks. When you are in close you will clinch and guide with the correct line for movement if you understand the shapes of wing chun. Problem is a lot of wing chun people are not sparring and testing.

I agree. Also, I liked the sparring clip - to me shows an adaptation of the art to a more limited rules format like MMA. I have no problem seeing the body mechanics of WC there. It was a good solid full contact mma rules sparring round.

Don't understand the criticism on this thread of "that's not WC". People are looking for tan, bong, fuk instead of the core fundamentals of the art such as centerline, hip/elbow connection, flanking facing. They need to learn to see beyond the shapes to what is really important.

[Frost]

Can I ask Alan (and this is a semi serious question) were you bored when you posted this clip and just looking to start another flame war with the too deadly to spar street fighting keyboard worriers (sorry I mean warriors) on this forum?
It as always amazes me people can take the time to write about how unwingchun like Alans stuff is, respond to him over and over, and yet can’t find the time to…oh I don’t know…actually post a clip of themselves in action….the best most of them can do is post a clip of PB swinging a pole or playing slap fighting with a student (WSL must be turning in his grave)

It also amazes me that the few people not badmouthing Alan, phil, Andrew, Wayfaring have all come from clubs where fighting and sparring is commonplace

It really is amusing here on the WC forum

[sanjuro_ronin]

Alan, my friend, I don't know why you bother bro.

[Sardinkahnikov]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP-DdxkEV0Y

Nice of Clip of my student Sai sparring with Andy.

1:06 - I used the jing gerk/punch (mostly tai kuen) combo ALOT back when I trained Wing Chun, too.

It's specially useful when you're shorter and want to close in without eating punches.

One of the guys I trained with was pretty good in catching you with a hook when you were closing in (what an d1ck!:D), so the front kick was good to "check" his movement - the punch was then used to engage.

PS: You should be careful with the background music you select, man. That song could **** your students off so much they'll hurt each other. :p

[LFJ]

Not all wing chun is a move from a form.

The principles of wing chun are fist and hip connection. Structure of power development. Weight control. Some things are hard to see if you do not train that way. Timing of movement.

Try to grow passed the 'where is bong and tan' they teach you your awareness of position - not blocks. When you are in close you will clinch and guide with the correct line for movement if you understand the shapes of wing chun. Problem is a lot of wing chun people are not sparring and testing.I agree. Also, I liked the sparring clip - to me shows an adaptation of the art to a more limited rules format like MMA. I have no problem seeing the body mechanics of WC there. It was a good solid full contact mma rules sparring round.

Don't understand the criticism on this thread of "that's not WC". People are looking for tan, bong, fuk instead of the core fundamentals of the art such as centerline, hip/elbow connection, flanking facing. They need to learn to see beyond the shapes to what is really important.

Can anyone point to a timestamp on the video where any such WC principle is being utilized? Maybe we just don't see it?

I'm not looking for taan, bong, fuk, etc.. But I don't see any centerline, hip/elbow connection, flanking facing or any of these concepts.

What I do see is a lot of dropping or pulling back of the rear hand when throwing a punch with the other, such as at 1:15 and many other places. Most defense is just "cover your head" like a boxer. I see no body mechanics, counterattacks or other principles of WC demonstrated.

Perhaps point to a timestamp like that and explain how it shows a certain WC principle. Since it's all pure WC that should be easy enough, right? I should wonder why so many are just seeing kickboxing, and no WC....?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Can anyone point to a timestamp on the video where any such WC principle is being utilized? Maybe we just don't see it?

I'm not looking for taan, bong, fuk, etc.. But I don't see any centerline, hip/elbow connection, flanking facing or any of these concepts.

What I do see is a lot of dropping or pulling back of the rear hand when throwing a punch with the other, such as at 1:15 and many other places. Most defense is just "cover your head" like a boxer. I see no body mechanics, counterattacks or other principles of WC demonstrated.

Perhaps point to a timestamp like that and explain how it shows a certain WC principle. Since it's all pure WC that should be easy enough, right? I should wonder why so many are just seeing kickboxing, and no WC....?

Would you be able to point us to a video that shows "real WC" between two fighters actually fighting?

Of course one can argue that if you could actually SEE the techniques it wouldn't be WC, but I wouldn't take it that far.

[LFJ]

I'm not looking for technique, per se, but principles such as what was mentioned by the previous poster. Are they displayed anywhere in the fight clip at hand?

[GlennR]

Can anyone point to a timestamp on the video where any such WC principle is being utilized? Maybe we just don't see it?

I'm not looking for taan, bong, fuk, etc.. But I don't see any centerline, hip/elbow connection, flanking facing or any of these concepts.

What I do see is a lot of dropping or pulling back of the rear hand when throwing a punch with the other, such as at 1:15 and many other places. Most defense is just "cover your head" like a boxer. I see no body mechanics, counterattacks or other principles of WC demonstrated.

Perhaps point to a timestamp like that and explain how it shows a certain WC principle. Since it's all pure WC that should be easy enough, right? I should wonder why so many are just seeing kickboxing, and no WC....?

Thats a fair question LFJ
I think the key to the video is the title of it. Its "CSL Boxing", i think its saying "hey we are in the ring within a sporting context and this is our take on it using CSL principals".
Its true what you say about lack of apparent hand techniques, but as they are staying at a primarily kicking/boxing range they are using tools better suited for that range.
But, they have a flavour about their structure and footwork which certainly isnt MT/boxing and (to my eye anyway) is presenting a WC structure.
Thats my take on it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not looking for technique, per se, but principles such as what was mentioned by the previous poster. Are they displayed anywhere in the fight clip at hand?

Ask the guy fighting what principles he used.
I always remember that take from WSL, how he was criticized for using a knee strike to beat an opponent, how he was asked what WC principle he used and he said:
Closest weapon to closest target.
Or something to that effect.

[Frost]

I'm not looking for technique, per se, but principles such as what was mentioned by the previous poster. Are they displayed anywhere in the fight clip at hand?

so thats a no then you cant post it?

[GlennR]

Ask the guy fighting what principles he used.
I always remember that take from WSL, how he was criticized for using a knee strike to beat an opponent, how he was asked what WC principle he used and he said:
Closest weapon to closest target.
Or something to that effect.

To be fair, he asked a civil and intelligent question.
If you say you can see WC in it, point it out for him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

To be fair, he asked a civil and intelligent question.
If you say you can see WC in it, point it out for him.

I was pointing out that if he can't see what he thinks he SHOULD see that has no baring on whether it is "WC", or not, whatever that even means.
Some would argue that the moment an elbow is thrown that it isn't WC.
Some would say that if there is no "chi sao" evident that it isn't WC.
Some would argue that if it doesn't look like what they THINK it should, it isn't WC.
Of course that leads us to the often debated point of what SHOULD WC look like VS a person trying to knock you face off and NOT doing "chi sao" with you.
That leads us to the question of what WC should look like VS something that is NOT WC.
That also leads us to the question of what WC should look like in a practical fight and NOT a controlled drill.

[LFJ]

so thats a no then you cant post it?

You're passing the buck...

We already have a video posted for analysis, which some people are suggesting shows WC principles, while many aren't seeing it. So I asked for someone to analyze the video and explain where WC principles are being utilized.

It does nothing but pass the buck to say "show me a video" in response. I could say the same thing to you. "So that's a no, then you can't say where the principles are in this clip?"

I thought it was a fair question....

[LFJ]

I was pointing out that if he can't see what he thinks he SHOULD see that has no baring on whether it is "WC", or not, whatever that even means.
Some would argue that the moment an elbow is thrown that it isn't WC.
Some would say that if there is no "chi sao" evident that it isn't WC.
Some would argue that if it doesn't look like what they THINK it should, it isn't WC.
Of course that leads us to the often debated point of what SHOULD WC look like VS a person trying to knock you face off and NOT doing "chi sao" with you.
That leads us to the question of what WC should look like VS something that is NOT WC.
That also leads us to the question of what WC should look like in a practical fight and NOT a controlled drill.

Already said I wasn't looking for techniques or appearance of WC, but the principles that some have claimed are present. I just don't see them being utilized.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We we do see in that clip (the first one) is the guy in the tank top ( called TT from now on) doing th is:
Striking up the centerline
Checking and trapping the hands and hitting ( with gloves so it must be modified accordingly from bare hands)
Controlling the centerline and striking with the elbows down ( where a typical boxer would have most definitly gone for hooks and overhands on more than one occasion).
Head gear and gloves make for modifications and adjustments, things that one must do in ANY fight.

[GlennR]

We we do see in that clip (the first one) is the guy in the tank top ( called TT from now on) doing th is:
Striking up the centerline
Checking and trapping the hands and hitting ( with gloves so it must be modified accordingly from bare hands)
Controlling the centerline and striking with the elbows down ( where a typical boxer would have most definitly gone for hooks and overhands on more than one occasion).
Head gear and gloves make for modifications and adjustments, things that one must do in ANY fight.

Now we're talking ;)

Regarding the lack of hooks and over hands id agree with you there, i dont think their footwork sets them up for them

[Wu Wei Wu]

Irrespective of background arts (e.g. Wing Chun) people quickly adopt a skill-set during sparring which looks less like the art and more like you would expect from a non-traditional fighter.

The more you spar, the more you intuitively start moving in a way that fits the profile for sparring (head movement, mobility), which oftentimes departs from the strict tactics adhered to in traditional arts. If you want to "see" moves then ask the person doing the sparring to show you a form!

God knows, that my training in Wing Chun was more "traditional" than 99% of the posters here, but my EXPERIENCE training with and against reasonable fighters from other arts has allowed me to conform less to tradition and more in line with what happens in fighting.

Sticking to tradition lends to a good understanding of the martial art, period. Sparring bridges the gap between the tradition and fighting. Ultimately sparring isn't fighting. But better to be a decent sports fighter which transfers better to street effectiveness, than a "dry-land swimmer" theorist.

Suki

[Alan Orr]

I agree. Also, I liked the sparring clip - to me shows an adaptation of the art to a more limited rules format like MMA. I have no problem seeing the body mechanics of WC there. It was a good solid full contact mma rules sparring round.

Don't understand the criticism on this thread of "that's not WC". People are looking for tan, bong, fuk instead of the core fundamentals of the art such as centerline, hip/elbow connection, flanking facing. They need to learn to see beyond the shapes to what is really important.


Nice post. Thanks

[Alan Orr]

Can I ask Alan (and this is a semi serious question) were you bored when you posted this clip and just looking to start another flame war with the too deadly to spar street fighting keyboard worriers (sorry I mean warriors) on this forum?
It as always amazes me people can take the time to write about how unwingchun like Alans stuff is, respond to him over and over, and yet can’t find the time to…oh I don’t know…actually post a clip of themselves in action….the best most of them can do is post a clip of PB swinging a pole or playing slap fighting with a student (WSL must be turning in his grave)

It also amazes me that the few people not badmouthing Alan, phil, Andrew, Wayfaring have all come from clubs where fighting and sparring is commonplace

It really is amusing here on the WC forum

The flame wars do make me laugh for sure. But really ... my goal to to help wing chun! I love wing chun but hate seeing all his demo of 'fighting skills' when the best example is to do it. I'm not trying to say I'm better that anyone - I'm just showing what we do and why. I even want to show day to day clips of sparring and training, but then I get people saying 'at 2.10 secs' you turn you small finger the wrong way! LOL Its real training with real pressure in the real world.

Anyway I will be posting a lot more clips! I've been busy this week training 2 of my fighters in CSL Wing Chun boxing skills, so I find it hard not laugh about guys telling I don't know wing chun. Who really think that I don't know wing chun?

[Alan Orr]

Well I think, and this is totally personal opinion of course, that a lot of Wing Chun practitioners have this notion of "form over function". So you will stick with your side-on goat stance, with your hands near your chest, thinking that no matter what comes, it won't get past your arms.

In reality of course, because you have never sparred with anybody ever, you have all this self confidence, and you promptly get pounded by somebody who HAS actually been hit in the head before. It's called pressure testing, and it is the most essential part of training for self-defence, by a mile.

Now because Alan is trying to actually apply WC to competition AND self defence you are all very unhappy because he found out that for practical purposes he dumped the (rather terrible) stance, and only uses it as a beginners training method.

What you, who claim to teach WC, should do, is actually spar REGULARLY, and see how much your style needs improving. THEN you should all go and spar with people from OTHER styles, and compare notes, and see what needs changing.

After you've done all this, please come back and post videos, because nothing would make me happier than seeing good WC working under pressure. (:

Very true.

[Alan Orr]

Can anyone point to a timestamp on the video where any such WC principle is being utilized? Maybe we just don't see it?

I'm not looking for taan, bong, fuk, etc.. But I don't see any centerline, hip/elbow connection, flanking facing or any of these concepts.

What I do see is a lot of dropping or pulling back of the rear hand when throwing a punch with the other, such as at 1:15 and many other places. Most defense is just "cover your head" like a boxer. I see no body mechanics, counterattacks or other principles of WC demonstrated.

Perhaps point to a timestamp like that and explain how it shows a certain WC principle. Since it's all pure WC that should be easy enough, right? I should wonder why so many are just seeing kickboxing, and no WC....?

I will post a new clip with a breakdown of some of the applications we use in sparring. It will example the bridge between forms - chi sao - sparring - fighting.

The hand must cover you head when you punch. In real fighting people don't just take chain punches with out throwing back at you. You have to be able to hit and not get hit - if you can. Sometime you will have to take a hit. Thats fighting.

In the clip I can see - use of body weight, positioning, power control, power development, control in line of attack, correct fist use, correct control of defence when attacking and much more.

You learn tan. jum etc as control of your own movement and space. I will show a few examples in my next clips.

I will do a clip tonight on chain punching as well! What it is and what its not in CSL Wing Chun!

I look forward to seeing others post their clips of sparring and how they bridge chi sao to sparring or fighting!

[Alan Orr]

You're passing the buck...

We already have a video posted for analysis, which some people are suggesting shows WC principles, while many aren't seeing it. So I asked for someone to analyze the video and explain where WC principles are being utilized.

It does nothing but pass the buck to say "show me a video" in response. I could say the same thing to you. "So that's a no, then you can't say where the principles are in this clip?"

I thought it was a fair question....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZnIVhighInU