Deconstructing Kung Fu

[MightyB]

Some other threads got me to thinking about this -

Prior to 1880, JuJitsu was just a collection of favorite techniques practiced by thugs (described this way by Kano himself - you look up the articles). It was associated with criminals and the Yakuza and really wasn't something that a civilized person would do. He changed all that by finding a single unifying principle "ju" and then codified the main body of techniques and Kata. He took out the most lethal moves and yada yada yada... Olympic sport.

I say we reverse engineer TCMA starting with analyzing forms.

My theory is that a TCMA style was a collection of favorite dirty tricks. Look at any form. Even if you perfect the whole form, out of that form of say some 50 techniques, you'll probably only find 3 or 4 that are personally applicable to you. Those would be your "go to" techniques. If you perfect those techniques against a living opponent, I think you'll find your true martial ability growing in leaps and bounds.

Thoughts and discussion.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What sux, is that there are way too many lines, where this is the only way to drive applications from your forms.

Thankfll there are still lineages who teach these uses.

Fight first, forms later. That is the old way.

[MightyB]

Fight first, forms later. That is the old way.

Good point. When my teacher described the creation of forms, he said that the old masters would beat the crap out of each other and then try to analyze what they did. They'd then take their favorites and put those into a sequence for preservation and transmission. I think this is important to keep in mind.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

One of the main problems is not so much that forms are taught and practiced, it is when they are taught as the main course of a Kung Fu program. Basics should be taught above all, the four elements of chinese martial arts. Da (Punches, elbows, upper body striking) Ti (Kicks, knees, lower body striking Shuai (Throws, clinch technique) Na (Seizing, trappling, submissions).

Also, blocking, parrying, trapping, and sticky hand technique should be taught, along with bag work, mitt work, two person drills, and most importantly freestyle sparring and grappling.

You Know Who said it best on here once, teach your students how to fight first. Then, they have their whole lives to learn and do forms.

[MightyB]

One of the main problems is not so much that forms are taught and practiced, it is when they are taught as the main course of a Kung Fu program. Basics should be taught above all, the four elements of chinese martial arts. Da (Punches, elbows, upper body striking) Ti (Kicks, knees, lower body striking Shuai (Throws, clinch technique) Na (Seizing, trappling, submissions).

Also, blocking, parrying, trapping, and sticky hand technique should be taught, along with bag work, mitt work, two person drills, and most importantly freestyle sparring and grappling.

You Know Who said it best on here once, teach your students how to fight first. Then, they have their whole lives to learn and do forms.

but to me the forms give insight into the "dirty tricks" of a style. I agree that you shouldn't overemphasize their importance, but neither should they be too de-emphasized. Otherwise you get no variance or "style" between fighting arts. The trick is finding the balance in how to approach forms practice. Learn it, analyze, apply. But where do you start? Do you start with a kickboxing / san da approach and then introduce style through form? IDK...

[Iron_Eagle_76]

but to me the forms give insight into the "dirty tricks" of a style. I agree that you shouldn't overemphasize their importance, but neither should they be too de-emphasized. Otherwise you get no variance or "style" between fighting arts. The trick is finding the balance in how to approach forms practice. Learn it, analyze, apply. But where do you start? Do you start with a kickboxing / san da approach and then introduce style through form? IDK...


This could be one approach, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that if the instructor chooses to go this route. But I still believe a simple emphasis on basics is where you start at. It's funny because everyone likes to distinguish kickboxing/Sanda training and Kung Fu training, when to me they are one and the same.

Kung Fu should involve doing bag work, mitts, shield kicks, along with sparring with equipment so that the students can learn to give and take shots in a safe manner. All combat sports do this, boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, MMA, ect. I fail to see the distinction and quite honestly I feel Kung Fu practioners think it is some kind of sin to spar like a kickboxer, when in truth, that is what you are going to look like with equipment on.

You can also spar with fingerless gloves which will enable you to do open hand strikes such as palms, ridgehands, tiger claws, and several other strikes found in Kung Fu that cannot be done with the use of boxing gloves. This is why I have my students spar both ways, one to develop power and realism, the other to refine technique.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Here is a video of two of my students sparring recently. Both these young ladies have about six months training with me, no previous experience. The advantage to having equipment is that they can practice at a harder contact level which is essential for devlopment. I also have them spar as I said with fingerless MMA gloves for devloping open hand striking and trappling/sticky hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFpFshHaBk4&list=UUwVQdvTSCvWTxzPNdacy4aw&index=2&feature=plcp

[Subitai]

Some other threads got me to thinking about this -

I say we reverse engineer TCMA starting with analyzing forms.

My theory is that a TCMA style was a collection of favorite dirty tricks. Look at any form. Even if you perfect the whole form, out of that form of say some 50 techniques, you'll probably only find 3 or 4 that are personally applicable to you. Those would be your "go to" techniques. If you perfect those techniques against a living opponent, I think you'll find your true martial ability growing in leaps and bounds.

I think you are exactly on the right track MightyB.

Many people look at a form and see a ROLO-Deck (index cards) of techniques that are possible. But there is no way in hell that they can "Sift though" all those techniques, pick one and then apply it in the same time as a punch for example.

The more experienced you are... the more you realize that you only need a few entries and a few counters in the begining. Then if you stick with it long enough, the other methods open themselves up to you as you mature.

I go further and break them down into primary, secondary and so forth type. Everyone has thier OWN WAY...or way of NO WAY, haha.

But anyway, the only thing people believe nowawdays is if you make a YouTube and prove it... short of actually meeting up and touching hands ie.

Keep on keepin' on man,
"O"

[Pork Chop]

But where do you start? Do you start with a kickboxing / san da approach and then introduce style through form? IDK...

Aside from Judo, you do mantis, right?
Is mantis really mantis without ng-lou-choy or dil sau?
Maybe, maybe not, it's debatable but it might be a tough argument.

Breaking down dil sau (the "ng" in "ng-lou-choy" if I'm not mistaken) - what is it?
Typically it's intercepting, redirecting, and hooking an incoming, straight-line attack.
In other words, it's a counter.

In order to counter, you need to be provided an input.
In order to learn proper countering, you need to have someone providing you proper input.
Given this era and your location, what's going to be the most common (and proficient), straight line fist attack?...Probably a boxing jab and/or cross (and by extension: mma, sanshou, muay thai, etc because they train it).
At the very least you'll want to learn how to properly execute that technique so your partner can counter it realistically.

There also may need to be some re-tooling in order to make it work.
Bareknuckle styles tend to build attacks and counters based off the body as a target; head shots weren't quite as common as since the advent of gloves - so you'll probably have to raise it to cover the head.
Plus, you're probably going to want to figure out how to do it with gloves for safety reasons and if you have any aspirations at the sport side of things.
Don't even get me started on the tweaking the technique for committed vs non-committed attacks (jabs vs crosses)...

How far do you take it then?
Do you train basic boxing/sanshou/muaythai/mma in its entirety first and then add your flavor?
Do you borrow the offense from the common sport stuff and teach your own defense from the get go?

Those questions are where it all gets difficult.
Your end product may look significantly different than your form and then you have the wonderful prospect of being accused of doing "sloppy kickboxing" by someone who never even bothered to put in the effort to retool their stuff for modern scenarios.

[Pork Chop]

Here is a video of two of my students sparring recently.

Chick with black gloves fights like a dude. :)
Kept thinking in the back of my head - "turn your hips over on those kicks!", but I understand that might not be your style.
Good clip.

[MightyB]

Aside from Judo, you do mantis, right?
Is mantis really mantis without ng-lou-choy or dil sau?
Maybe, maybe not, it's debatable but it might be a tough argument.

Breaking down dil sau (the "ng" in "ng-lou-choy" if I'm not mistaken) - what is it?
Typically it's intercepting, redirecting, and hooking an incoming, straight-line attack.
In other words, it's a counter.



I think ou lou choy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km1P3VhFMYI) is the defining "dirty trick" of mantis.

[Pork Chop]

I think ou lou choy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km1P3VhFMYI) is the defining "dirty trick" of mantis.

That's pretty much what I'm talking about :)
The next step would be putting some gloves on and having him feed proper jabs/crosses at realistic speed while the receiver gets to work on that.

[MightyB]

That's pretty much what I'm talking about :)
The next step would be putting some gloves on and having him feed proper jabs/crosses at realistic speed while the receiver gets to work on that.

That's Dave - he's not a striker at all, and has no interest - just a grappler, but he was willing to pose as one for the camera. :D

One of my biggest problems and always has been is finding sparring partners (even in Judo). That's the one thing I do like about BJJ - no shortage there. That's where I go when I'm getting ready for competition.

[-N-]

That's pretty much what I'm talking about :)
The next step would be putting some gloves on and having him feed proper jabs/crosses at realistic speed while the receiver gets to work on that.

Ou lou choy does not have to be in response to an attack. You can initiate your own attack with it.

Don't use it against a jab.

[Pork Chop]

Ou lou choy does not have to be in response to an attack. You can initiate your own attack with it.

Don't use it against a jab.

Admittedly, I'm not expert with mantis, just had some experience with it.
I'm really curious to learn how ou lou choy can be used to lead off an attack.
In B's video, he had a cool example of leading off with a jab and then when the other guy parries, flowing into the ou-lou-choy as soon as contact is made.

As far as defending a jab - yeah, a full ou-lou-choy would probably unrealistic; but you could probably get away with a modified dil sau to use as a parry.

[MasterKiller]

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6872&stc=1&d=1329758845

[-N-]

I'm really curious to learn how ou lou choy can be used to lead off an attack.

Just explode in and apply ou lou choy against is lead guard hand.


As far as defending a jab - yeah, a full ou-lou-choy would probably unrealistic; but you could probably get away with a modified dil sau to use as a parry.

Not worth trying to catch a real jab with a dil sau. Might get away with it if theguy's jab is lazy.

Easier to slip and drop low for a body shot with the lead hand. Use the back hand for parry. In Mantis, that would bo choy steal heart punch. Boxers do basically the same thing.

Follow up from there is up to you. One classic one would be to to go back up with lead uppercut, follow with lead hook. Back hand is using fung(seal) to assist the followups.

[Pork Chop]

One of my biggest problems and always has been is finding sparring partners (even in Judo). That's the one thing I do like about BJJ - no shortage there. That's where I go when I'm getting ready for competition.

In striking arts, it's even more difficult to find good partners.
Can't tell you how many sparring sessions have devolved into this. (http://youtu.be/WmzREkByfbc)
Been yelled at for even stalking like Floyd Sr in that clip.

In Baltimore, I don't think I realized how good I had it - used to complain because there weren't many guys my own size to work with.
But, for larger guys, that's probably always going to be the case, and the guys I did get to work with at Baltimore Sanshou were really great - so I've learned to be more appreciative.

I don't have the option like you do to go to a mma gym for good partners - because most mma gyms have cr@p for striking and locally, they all spar like meatheads (see the vid above).

Boxing gyms can be cool if you take it slow and get to know the trainers for a while (weeks) before ever asking to spar. Still gotta watch out for the occasional nutbag who starts dropping elbows when he can't hit you with his punches.

I like my muay thai gym, but at the moment there's nobody I really enjoy sparring with. Even the one guy that's good near my weight class still takes things really personally, has a worse temper than I do, hits like a mac truck, and spars with 6 year old cheap everlast gloves with no paint on the knuckles and probably even less padding.

Maybe I'm in the wrong sport; but if I'm going to put my body through an actual fight, I at least want to get some credit for it (either an amateur record or money).

I'm always on the lookout for good training partners. I'm trying to kick off some of those relationships by offering to hold pads for anybody that comes along - either help the nice guys get to a decent level, or help the decent guys to look at it as a team instead of in-gym competition.

Taking my ego out of it, volunteering to "lose" the sparring session, and being quick to be verbal about slowing it down if it gets a little intense has helped me out so far.

[Pork Chop]

Just explode in and apply ou lou choy against is lead guard hand.

...

Not worth trying to catch a real jab with a dil sau. Might get away with it if theguy's jab is lazy.

Easier to slip and drop low for a body shot with the lead hand. Use the back hand for parry. In Mantis, that would bo choy steal heart punch. Boxers do basically the same thing.

Follow up from there is up to you. One classic one would be to to go back up with lead uppercut, follow with lead hook. Back hand is using fung(seal) to assist the followups.

Great info, thanks!

I agree, not worth catching a jab.

I was taught dil sau as a "mirror block" - from center line to outer, using the thumb side of the forearm, palm facing up; before it turns over with the hooking motion. That "mirror block" part might work as a parry, especially if it's opposite stance (orthodox vs southpaw).

I do like the idea of slipping and going to the body. My bread and butter is parrying the jab with my lead (southpaw vs orthodox) and firing the jab over the top with the same hand - you see it in a lot of forms from a lot of styles as a bunch of different expressions.

My muay thai coach likes to do a follow up combo like the one you described, adding a cross at the end.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Chick with black gloves fights like a dude. :)
Kept thinking in the back of my head - "turn your hips over on those kicks!", but I understand that might not be your style.
Good clip.

Actually turning the hips over is very much my style and they admittedly need work on this for their kicks. Yes, the girl with black gloves does hit and fight like a guy!!

[Pork Chop]

Actually turning the hips over is very much my style and they admittedly need work on this for their kicks. Yes, the girl with black gloves does hit and fight like a guy!!

didn't mean to criticize.
a lot of times in sanshou, we were taught not to turn the hip all the way over because it was more likely to be caught and get you thrown.
in muay thai, they just don't give a f*ck hehe

[Pork Chop]

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6872&stc=1&d=1329758845

http://www.tofugu.com/2012/02/18/japanese-f art-scrolls/

o geeze...

[Sardinkahnikov]

http://www.tofugu.com/2012/02/18/japanese-f art-scrolls/

o geeze...

Every time I log into this forum I learn something bizarre about our world.

[wenshu]

In Buddhism there are the 8 winds; the winds of gain and loss, the winds of honor and dishonor, the winds of praise and blame, and the winds of joy and suffering.

An old poet and calligrapher was struck by inspiration during mediation and wrote a verse about how he was able to remained unmoved by the 8 winds. Delighted with his work he gave it to his servant to deliver to his friend, a Chan master who lived across the river.

The servant delivered the poem to the master who upon reading it wrote down one word and gave it to the servant to send back to the poet. The word was "****".

Upon reading the note sent in response to his poem the poet rushed across the river, confronted the Chan master and demanded an explanation for the indignity.

The Chan master replied,

"You are unmoved by the 8 winds but a **** blows you across the river."

[MightyB]

we need a "like" button.

In Buddhism there are the 8 winds; the winds of gain and loss, the winds of honor and dishonor, the winds of praise and blame, and the winds of joy and suffering.

An old poet and calligrapher was struck by inspiration during mediation and wrote a verse about how he was able to remained unmoved by the 8 winds. Delighted with his work he gave it to his servant to deliver to his friend, a Chan master who lived across the river.

The servant delivered the poem to the master who upon reading it wrote down one word and gave it to the servant to send back to the poet. The word was "****".

Upon reading the note sent in response to his poem the poet rushed across the river, confronted the Chan master and demanded an explanation for the indignity.

The Chan master replied,

"You are unmoved by the 8 winds but a **** blows you across the river."

[Yum Cha]

Nice Vid B,

Note, this is an 'outside' move, makes the other arm counterstrike difficult.

You can use an elbow as easy as a fist if you have momentum as well as the pull.

Deconstructing patterns for fighting:
One thing we have is combinations. Combinations that build on the results of the first move and a predicted mechanical response.


Lots of times, a move in a form has both a benign and a vicious alternative...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

but to me the forms give insight into the "dirty tricks" of a style. I agree that you shouldn't overemphasize their importance, but neither should they be too de-emphasized. Otherwise you get no variance or "style" between fighting arts. The trick is finding the balance in how to approach forms practice. Learn it, analyze, apply. But where do you start? Do you start with a kickboxing / san da approach and then introduce style through form? IDK...

Forms were instituted at Shaolin by the Emperor Zhao Kuang Yin as a method of grading and proving achievement. They were originally diplomas, for the most part, only taught after a student has mastered his art.

They were never meant to be studied to learn "Dirty tricks". Such things should reveal themselves easily, and much more thoroughly if you are deeply steeped in the arts guiding principals, fundamentals and concepts of application.


On the rare occasions I teach, I teach the form as the last part of each unit. It's the certificate saying they earned thier skills for that unit.

[mooyingmantis]

Admittedly, I'm not expert with mantis, just had some experience with it.
I'm really curious to learn how ou lou choy can be used to lead off an attack.
In B's video, he had a cool example of leading off with a jab and then when the other guy parries, flowing into the ou-lou-choy as soon as contact is made.

As far as defending a jab - yeah, a full ou-lou-choy would probably unrealistic; but you could probably get away with a modified dil sau to use as a parry.

Pork Chop,
My school never uses gou lou chui as a defensive method. Here is how we use it offensively and the philosophy behind it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WavZrEtUCI

At 02:47 and on is the answer to your question.

[mooyingmantis]

Here is a video of two of my students sparring recently. Both these young ladies have about six months training with me, no previous experience. The advantage to having equipment is that they can practice at a harder contact level which is essential for devlopment. I also have them spar as I said with fingerless MMA gloves for devloping open hand striking and trappling/sticky hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFpFshHaBk4&list=UUwVQdvTSCvWTxzPNdacy4aw&index=2&feature=plcp

Iron Eagle 76,
I enjoyed the clip. Great job with your students!

The lady who dominated the fight had a lot of heart. I thought she performed better than the two guys featured in the other sparring clip you put up.
The only critique I would give is: combos, combos, combos! They seemed to be trying to be "one hit wonders" for the most part.

My students train combos from the very first class and must use them in sparring. Every time they try to be "one hit wonders", I step in and they spar with me. I show them what it feels like to be on the receiving end of combinations. They get the point fairly quickly that way. :)

[mooyingmantis]

Forms were instituted at Shaolin by the Emperor Zhao Kuang Yin as a method of grading and proving achievement. They were originally diplomas, for the most part, only taught after a student has mastered his art.

What is your source for this information?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It's pretty well known. There are endless discussions on the subject on the Shaolin forum. It all happened during the time Zhao Kuang Yin was sending his generals to Shaolin, when Abbot Fu Ju was organizing the arts.

Forms existed here and there prior to this. However it was during this time that they became integral to Shaolin systems. Later it spread to the countryside and everyone started making forms for their arts.

Go to the Shaolin forum and ask any of the research junkies.

[wenshu]

What is your source for this information?

His imagination.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Iron Eagle 76,
I enjoyed the clip. Great job with your students!

The lady who dominated the fight had a lot of heart. I thought she performed better than the two guys featured in the other sparring clip you put up.
The only critique I would give is: combos, combos, combos! They seemed to be trying to be "one hit wonders" for the most part.

My students train combos from the very first class and must use them in sparring. Every time they try to be "one hit wonders", I step in and they spar with me. I show them what it feels like to be on the receiving end of combinations. They get the point fairly quickly that way. :)

Thanks for the compliments, Richard. Yes, they certainly need to work on combinations better, but I think this is a beginner's biggest problem as you said, the one hit wonder syndrome. Funny thing is, often when doing basics, bag work, and mitt work they do all combos taught but seem to forget all this when sparring. But it gives me something to have them work harder towards.

[-N-]

Pork Chop,
My school never uses gou lou chui as a defensive method.

We'll do gou lou chui counterattack on a partial retreat as part of swallow/spit theory.

More often we initiate though.

[Pork Chop]

Pork Chop,
My school never uses gou lou chui as a defensive method. Here is how we use it offensively and the philosophy behind it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WavZrEtUCI

At 02:47 and on is the answer to your question.

That was pretty cool, thanks for the lesson!
Hooking right off the bat was kind of reminiscent of the probing jab that becomes the hook.
Even simple boxing counters can be very hard to execute, so I'm digging the proactive approach.

[mooyingmantis]

We'll do gou lou chui counterattack on a partial retreat as part of swallow/spit theory.

More often we initiate though.

Norm,
Yes, we also do that type of drill. We just prefer gou lou chui as an offensive move. I guess I should have not used the word "never". LOL!

Here is a clip of my son and I doing the drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYozF7DXrm8

[-N-]

Norm,
Yes, we also do that type of drill. We just prefer gou lou chui as an offensive move. I guess I should have not used the word "never". LOL!

Here is a clip of my son and I doing the drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYozF7DXrm8

It's a nice one to use in sparring if you want to bait someone into a trap :)

Single goose exits formation is another nice one to use in that context.

[MightyB]

That was pretty cool, thanks for the lesson!
Hooking right off the bat was kind of reminiscent of the probing jab that becomes the hook.
Even simple boxing counters can be very hard to execute, so I'm digging the proactive approach.

The reason I like to initiate off of a jab is because they'll give you their hand, where as if you go directly for a grab, their natural instinct is to pull away.

Small Print: Just watch out for the catch jab because you'll eat one if you're not prepared.

[Pork Chop]

The reason I like to initiate off of a jab is because they'll give you their hand, where as if you go directly for a grab, their natural instinct is to pull away.


Yeah, the video looked like he was doing more of a guard probe first than just a straight up grab.
In muay thai there's the reverse parry, which is slightly similar: http://youtu.be/SeDluczFPn4

[Yao Sing]

This is why people would learn a form a year. You break it down and break it down more, find the essence of the movement and how it works together.

After you have it, throw away the form. Keep the form if you plan on teaching it...its just a tool.

That's the backward mentality that drives the forms focus in CMA. That should only be the case if all you have is the form, otherwise a good instructor would teach the moves first then the form later once they have the moves down.

Somewhere along the line this got reversed.

If you learn the form first how do you know you're doing the moves correctly?

[LFJ]

That's the backward mentality that drives the forms focus in CMA. That should only be the case if all you have is the form, otherwise a good instructor would teach the moves first then the form later once they have the moves down.

Somewhere along the line this got reversed.

If you learn the form first how do you know you're doing the moves correctly?

IMHO, that shows little understanding of forms.

They way I was taught and teach, is that the forms train our structure (to do the moves correctly). Each movement should have principles intact that will serve as our fighting structure during attack and defense. We train the form first to ingrain these principles and structure. Then learn to take that and apply it, in ways that can be easily adapted and change to the situation, yet still maintain the structure and principles of the system that will keep us protected and put us in an advantageous position.

Forms often exaggerate the movements to ingrain the structure (best practiced slowly at first to ensure this). Then it's easier to be flexible and learn changeability. These are necessary tools for being able to use our skills in fighting.

Of course, originally forms were created by taking techniques and structures that worked in fighting. But we don't need to go through that trial-and-error process now. With a good teacher, we'll study the form not for a collection of techniques, but for ingraining structures and principles which we can use in our own fighting, using what works for us.

If on the other hand, you don't study proper structure and just jump to techniques and sparring then you will be lost. You aren't studying a system. And what's the point of learning forms after that? That's studying structure after a fight... a little late.

Imagine if your style is WCK, and you jump to sparring before chi sau, and attempt chi sau before learning the structures and principles in the forms. Or learn the forms out of order. Ridiculous, eh?

That's not my style, but a good example. The ultimate goal is fighting, but you can't start there. Study your forms for the structures and principles, not single techniques. Then use that for your fighting.

Learning a form (your tools) afterward, as a "certificate", is absolutely pointless. But I guess many people don't know what the forms are actually teaching them....

[Yao Sing]

Then every school I ever went to, Karate and Kung Fu, taught me wrong since I almost always learned the moves first before the form. Even seminars will do that to a certain extent.

So then what is the answer to my question?

"If you learn the form first how do you know you're doing the moves correctly?"

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by Andy Miles View Post
This is why people would learn a form a year. You break it down and break it down more, find the essence of the movement and how it works together.

After you have it, throw away the form. Keep the form if you plan on teaching it...its just a tool.

I agree and disagree. I agree with the first part 100%. The second part i disagree 100%.

If i knew that my student would just take the techniques from the form and then discard the form i would ask him to leave. don't waste my time wanting to learn the system just tell me you want to know the fighting techniques ahead of time and we can construct a specially designed program for you. aside from that, i'd be shaming my elders by pillaging time honored traditional forms in such a way.

Sure, forms are tools. more like Blue Prints to me. but after using that hammer to repair something, do you throw the hammer in the garbage? i mean who would do that? :confused:

[wenshu]

Forms often exaggerate the movements. . .

. . . we'll study the form not for a collection of techniques, but for ingraining structures and principles which we can use in our own fighting, using what works for us.


This point is very nicely stated.

[sanjuro_ronin]

TMA must really be dense and not very bright because they need forms to teach them and help them remember stuff that other MA don't need any forms to do.
Frightening.
:D

[LFJ]

So then what is the answer to my question?

"If you learn the form first how do you know you're doing the moves correctly?"

I thought I answered that.... with my first paragraph in response.

"the forms train our structure (to do the moves correctly). Each movement should have principles intact that will serve as our fighting structure during attack and defense. We train the form first to ingrain these principles and structure. Then learn to take that and apply it, in ways that can be easily adapted and change to the situation, yet still maintain the structure and principles of the system that will keep us protected and put us in an advantageous position."

Likely, if you try a move without first understanding the structure, you'll perform it incorrectly and it won't work in actually fighting. You might have it work when you are applying a technique with a compliant partner, but.....

In fighting we don't use "techniques" as such, we use movement with principles and structure intact from the forms training.

Subitai said it well:


Many people look at a form and see a ROLO-Deck (index cards) of techniques that are possible. But there is no way in hell that they can "Sift though" all those techniques, pick one and then apply it in the same time as a punch for example.

So, again, we respond with movement with structures that have principles intact to keep us protected while we attack and defend, while the techniques may be forced to change. We can't rely on that.

To answer your question once again, we will know we are doing the movement correctly, because we trained the proper structure in the form.

[LFJ]

TMA must really be dense and not very bright because they need forms to teach them and help them remember stuff that other MA don't need any forms to do.
Frightening.
:D

That's if people learn forms for endless techniques, rather than to train structure and principles the forms are actually teaching us, so that we can effectively fight with them.

[YouKnowWho]

TMA must really be dense and not very bright because they need forms to teach them and help them remember stuff that other MA don't need any forms to do.
Frightening.
:D
There are better way to record TCMA techniques than form. I prefer to use the "tree" approach instead. When you apply a certain technique, your opponent may response N number of different ways, you then have to handle those N different responses. Your tree then breach out with N brenches from the root. How big will your tree grow depends on your understanding of the combat.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's if people learn forms for endless techniques, rather than to train structure and principles the forms are actually teaching us, so that we can effectively fight with them.

To train structure and principles in a fighting context one must fight.
For structure to be effective DURING a fight it must be trained by fighting since one NEEDS the opponent to "test" our structure and without testing nothing is developed to its potential.
One CAN'T develop structure to be used VS an unpredictable opponent WITHOUT an unpredictable opponent.
To say that doing forms "VA the air" develops structure VS a live opponent is like saying that practicing swimming in the air develops the ability to swim in the water.
It does not.

[Yao Sing]

Well I'm just dense then because I don't see an answer in your response. So you teach a form and your student just copies (approximates) the movement as best he can with no clue what he's actually doing and this teaches proper structure?

The form gives you the proper structure (your answer) how? How does trying to imitate the teacher's movements in the air teach proper structure?

I've seen many students think they are doing forms correctly but they aren't. That's why some folks video tape themselves.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are better way to record TCMA techniques than form. I prefer to use the "tree" approach instead. When you apply a certain technique, your opponent may response N number of different ways, you then have to handle those N different responses. Your tree then breach out with N brenches from the root. How big will your tree grow depends on your understanding of the combat.

I prefer the "knuckle sandwich" approach.
For whatever your opponent responds, you give him a "knuckle sandwich".
:D

[Yao Sing]

Back in my old Kenpo days we had a running joke "I'll shuto you" as the response to anything. It was a spoof of the old "rabbit punch" mentality the clueless had about martial arts. Remember the TV heroes would always knock out the bad guys with a Karate Chop to the back of the neck?

[hskwarrior]

To say that doing forms "VA the air" develops structure VS a live opponent is like saying that practicing swimming in the air develops the ability to swim in the water.
It does not.

Its just like alot of gung fu practitioners think they have powerful punches because it FEELS strong to the puncher. But it all changes with the blink of an eye when you bring in bag or pad work and get the practitioner to strike full power and they instantly realize they really don't hit as hard as they thought. :rolleyes:

[LFJ]

To train structure and principles in a fighting context one must fight.
For structure to be effective DURING a fight it must be trained by fighting since one NEEDS the opponent to "test" our structure and without testing nothing is developed to its potential.
One CAN'T develop structure to be used VS an unpredictable opponent WITHOUT an unpredictable opponent.
To say that doing forms "VA the air" develops structure VS a live opponent is like saying that practicing swimming in the air develops the ability to swim in the water.
It does not.

Of course. I don't think I ever suggested just practicing forms and never fighting/sparring to test the structure you've trained. But I'm also talking about the principles within the structures. With those principles intact you will be able to adapt and change to whatever your unpredictable opponent does, and still be able to protect yourself while attacking.


Well I'm just dense then because I don't see an answer in your response. So you teach a form and your student just copies (approximates) the movement as best he can with no clue what he's actually doing and this teaches proper structure?

The form gives you the proper structure (your answer) how? How does trying to imitate the teacher's movements in the air teach proper structure?

I've seen many students think they are doing forms correctly but they aren't. That's why some folks video tape themselves.

With no clue what he's actually doing? Why? Bad teacher?

Students do forms incorrectly, yes. That's why a teacher corrects them, and meanwhile teaches them what it's function is. So you first train the form for structure and principles, then put it to the test.

Never did I suggest you should just train forms, and not understand their function, and never test it in sparring. lol :confused:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its just like alot of gung fu practitioners think the have powerful punches because it FEELS strong to the puncher. But it all changes with the blink of an eye when you bring in bag or pad work and get the practitioner to strike full power and they instantly realize they really don't hit as hard as they thought. :rolleyes:

Indeed.
That forms were a method of SOLO training when PARTNER training was not possible is obvious and it is obvious with every MA that use forms.
What we do find in an almost unique way is how Asian MA tend to favour pre-arranged forms over "free style forms".
Many systems teach the pre-arranged forms at the "beginner" level and then the practioner takes them and goes more "free style" to suit their needs.
Think a boxer that learns the pre-arranged form of jab-cross and jab-cross uppercut and cross-hook-uppercut, etc, etc and while he learns them in a set pattern, he is them told to "freestyle" them into his "own form", aka "shadowboxing.
Western MA tend to favour this approach.

[Yao Sing]

Its just like alot of gung fu practitioners think they have powerful punches because it FEELS strong to the puncher. But it all changes with the blink of an eye when you bring in bag or pad work and get the practitioner to strike full power and they instantly realize they really don't hit as hard as they thought. :rolleyes:

And some find out they don't even punch correctly when their wrist collapses.


Of course. I don't think I ever suggested just practicing forms and never fighting/sparring to test the structure you've trained. .......

With no clue what he's actually doing? Why? Bad teacher?

I'm not suggesting you do only forms. Just wanted to clarify that.

Students have no clue what they're doing when they learn forms without learning the moves first because they need to have the context of the move. Until then it's just "wave arms in the air like this".

[hskwarrior]

Indeed.
That forms were a method of SOLO training when PARTNER training was not possible is obvious and it is obvious with every MA that use forms.
What we do find in an almost unique way is how Asian MA tend to favour pre-arranged forms over "free style forms".

The problem is that some sifu won't share certain insights into the system because they expect you to pick up on it.

Solo training, if doing forms, you should be in the mindset of an actual combative scenario while practicing them. too many people place their emphasis in the wrong area of training. worrying too much about structure, being too technical, or with their ACTING during a form.

Sifu always taught us to act like we were fighting while demonstrating. put our heads in the right place. when practiced long enough structure gets built.

Freestyle.....also something my sifu stressed with us. I've actually won 1st place trophies for forms i instantly made up on the spot. one time i tied for first and the judges asked me to do the same form again.....i was like OOPS.....didn't see that coming. i tried....could have taken grand champion but i bowed out. i made a boo boo and got sidetracked.

also, sifu made us freestyle our CLF in street demo's due to too many video cameras focused on us. Its an awesome feeling freestyling your system and it being clearly identifiable visually as the traditional stuff we learned.


And some find out they don't even punch correctly when their wrist collapses.



EXACTLY

[LFJ]

Students have no clue what they're doing when they learn forms without learning the moves first because they need to have the context of the move. Until then it's just "wave arms in the air like this".

Yes, but wave them like this and not like that, slowly and precisely first. And now here's the reason and principle it contains. Now use this same structure you've trained in a partner drill. Now use this structure and use the principles to adapt from it in a more free response partner drill. Now use this structure and principles in free sparring. Now in fighting.

That's the function of forms, to ingrain structure and principles and learn changeability. Not just 100's of techniques in response to certain hypothetical situations. Choosing the proper one in a nanosecond is impossible. Respond with principles. Learn the principles from the structures in your forms. Test and adapt them in drills and sparring. And now you are learning a system of martial arts that works for the individual.

[LFJ]

also, sifu made us freestyle our CLF in street demo's due to too many video cameras focused on us. Its an awesome feeling freestyling your system and it being clearly identifiable visually as the traditional stuff we learned.

This is good. I often do this when solo training.

[Yao Sing]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I was taught to learn the moves first, especially the difficult ones. I've done 3 different flavors of Kenpo, some Shotokan and Tai Kwon Do, ,Praying Mantis, Choy Lay Fut, trained at the Wah Lum Temple for 15 years (and they're forms heavy) and most of the time the moves come before the forms.

Moves came before forms in history, why should it be any different teaching? I have a friend that trained in Pai Lum in the early days and he said they never did any forms and he was a ranked (point) fighter.

[LFJ]

Moves came before forms in history, why should it be any different teaching?

Before forms, there were line drills of loose techniques. That's what the military used in training. A form is just a longer sequence of movements. So it's basically the same thing. They drilled short movements the same way, and for the same purpose (to ingrain the structures and principles to keep them safe on the battlefield). A lot of the empty hand forms have the same movements that were done with weapons in hand. So that if they dropped their weapon, they'd continue with the same principles just applied to empty hand.

I did give my answer to this teaching question already. That the recorded movements came from what worked in fighting (not 100's of individual techniques, but structures and principles). Now we train those without having to go through the same process of trial and error. Then the forms are trained in the way or for the purpose I described. This may have been reversed, it certainly is so in the West, because people want quick answers to questions. Which may be okay for simple self-defense, but seems counter-intuitive for trained fighters.

Keep in mind, this is posted by "LFJ" and I did start my first response on this topic with IMHO... :rolleyes:

[Yao Sing]

My point being what were those line drills composed of? No matter how you want to look at it single moves came first, before forms and before line drills. Otherwise what would they consist of? Made up stuff?

Knifefighter actually thought that forms were made up first then they tried to figure out applications for the made up moves.

Too bad but it doesn't, and never did, work that way.

Did you learn forms your first day, or week? Or did you learn basic moves (what the forms consist of) first?

If you know the moves, and their names, you can pick up old manuscripts and learn forms. Without knowing the moves the manuscripts, books, video etc are almost useless. Certainly not a good way for a beginner to learn.

[Yao Sing]

One line of Kenpo I trained taught individual moves (basics) first then short sequences which had names. The forms were a string of the moves/sequences.

Another line that a friend from my first Kenpo school switched to built the forms up by adding new moves to the sequences for each belt.

Different approaches but both starting with basic moves building into sequences/drills then into forms. That's the progression.

Starting with forms without having the forms building blocks could easily introduce and reinforce incorrect habits. And a lot of people can't visualize. They have troubling picturing an opponent when doing forms. They need to understand what they're doing first.

Form without function is just "waving hands in air". Trying to copy the teachers movements does not teach proper structure. It approximates it and needs to be drilled with an opponent to "get it right".

I've seen students who were lost in a form clean them up after learning what they were supposed to be doing. If they would have learned that move first they wouldn't have spent so much time doing it wrong.

This even happened to me when I learned a form (on the side) without having the basic moves of that form. Someone eventually told me I had the moves all wrong. By then the "bad" moves were ingrained into me and it was harder relearning it than it would have been to learn it correctly the first time.

[Yao Sing]

Actually a good example is when I watched an ex-Wah Lum instructor try to teach one of his students a form when that student hadn't learned the basic moves (stances, punches, etc).

Instead of saying "do a Lady Horse Stance" he was trying to get him to do it by copying while learning the form and it was completely foreign to him. This guy was totally fumbling around and lost.

Most of us can spot someone who learned a form we know from a book or video.

[LFJ]

My point being what were those line drills composed of? No matter how you want to look at it single moves came first, before forms and before line drills. Otherwise what would they consist of? Made up stuff?

Uh, they were made up of single moves. Not like the lines of Tantui which are like forms, but like in Songshan Shaolin we do line drills of single moves, like gongbu xiexing, for example, alternating sides.


Did you learn forms your first day, or week? Or did you learn basic moves (what the forms consist of) first?

Of course we do basic moves first, but previously you asked how you know the moves are correct, which sounds like you learn applications for moves you don't learn until later, so you can do the moves right. Which seems odd.

It's like you are using fighting as basics to learn to do forms as the end goal, rather than learning forms to ingrain structures and principles to aid you in fighting as the end goal.

Am I misunderstanding you?

[Yao Sing]

Uh, they were made up of single moves. Not like the lines of Tantui which are like forms, but like in Songshan Shaolin we do line drills of single moves, like gongbu xiexing, for example, alternating sides.

We do line drills of the same move over and over alternating sides as well as line drills of a string of moves (like 10 Roads Tan Tui). Yes, moves come before forms (short line drills or longer sets).


Of course we do basic moves first, but previously you asked how you know the moves are correct, which sounds like you learn applications for moves you don't learn until later, so you can do the moves right. Which seems odd.

No, you learn the move with app before you learn the form. The form is just choreography for the moves you learned previously.

You can't learn apps then learn the move later. You can learn the move without learning the app but you can't learn an app without learning the move. If you learn the move without the app how do you know you're doing it correctly? If you don't know what you're doing you're just imitating and may or may not get it right.


It's like you are using fighting as basics to learn to do forms as the end goal, rather than learning forms to ingrain structures and principles to aid you in fighting as the end goal.

Am I misunderstanding you?

If you equate fighting to applications then you're correct. IOW, the forms are a compilation of moves/apps, whether the form is intended as a database, example of combos, or attribute training. In all three cases I just mentioned as reasons for a form they still consist of individual moves.

I believe those moves/apps should be learned first, before learning the form.

You learn numbers first before manipulating them in equations. You learn words first before stringing them into sentences.

[hskwarrior]

Knifefighter actually thought that forms were made up first then they tried to figure out applications for the made up moves.

This just shows his utter ignorance to kung fu period.

I will admit for a beginner to learn the form first is confusing because he doesn't truly understand what he's doing until he learns applications drills and such. but if one is serious is his path, the answers will come from inside.....not from someone else.

[LFJ]

You can't learn apps then learn the move later. You can learn the move without learning the app but you can't learn an app without learning the move. If you learn the move without the app how do you know you're doing it correctly? If you don't know what you're doing you're just imitating and may or may not get it right.

I did misunderstand you.

However, when teaching single moves I first show the app so the student has an idea. But they do not drill apps until their moves reach a certain standard, which means their structure will be proper and they can make use of its inherent principles.

Before that their structure is awkward and therefore principles and concepts are not adhered to, making the apps sloppy and inneffective.


If you equate fighting to applications then you're correct.

It is adhering to principles that will give you the position to protect yourself when you don't know what is coming, not knowing 100's of apps for hypothetic situations.

[Yao Sing]

I did misunderstand you.

I'm terrible at explaining things. What takes 2 pages of typing here would take 2 minutes face to face.

[hskwarrior]

good thing about these misunderstandings is the conversations are nice and peaceful.

[YouKnowWho]

I was taught to learn the moves first, ...

This approach will not work well if you want to train throwing skill or ground skill. Without an opponent, it's very difficult to throw or roll with an imaginary opponent. Even in the striking art, it's also difficult to punch or kick an imaginary opponnet.

[Yao Sing]

This approach will not work well if you want to train throwing skill or ground skill. Without an opponent, it's very difficult to throw or roll with an imaginary opponent. Even in the striking art, it's also difficult to punch or kick an imaginary opponnet.

What you describe is what I mean by "learning the move first". We were talking about learning moves individually as opposed to learning them in a form.

Could you teach a throw or ground skill in a form without teaching it individually first?

I suspect the student would be seriously lost. BTW, what you said in another thread was basically what I said here in this one so I know you agree in principle.

[Jimbo]

The problem is that some sifu won't share certain insights into the system because they expect you to pick up on it.

Solo training, if doing forms, you should be in the mindset of an actual combative scenario while practicing them. too many people place their emphasis in the wrong area of training. worrying too much about structure, being too technical, or with their ACTING during a form.

Sifu always taught us to act like we were fighting while demonstrating. put our heads in the right place. when practiced long enough structure gets built.

Freestyle.....also something my sifu stressed with us. I've actually won 1st place trophies for forms i instantly made up on the spot. one time i tied for first and the judges asked me to do the same form again.....i was like OOPS.....didn't see that coming. i tried....could have taken grand champion but i bowed out. i made a boo boo and got sidetracked.

also, sifu made us freestyle our CLF in street demo's due to too many video cameras focused on us. Its an awesome feeling freestyling your system and it being clearly identifiable visually as the traditional stuff we learned.

I was taught to freestyle early on in CLF, as well. Actually shadow-boxing CLF style. You'd be surprised how many people can't do it. No, it isn't the same as actual sparring or fighting, but it's an invaluable exercise in developing spontaneity, flow, and coordination (in a solo training manner). Along with application drills, pad/bag work, and various levels of sparring, the freestyling helps make you move more naturally and automatically.

As far as forms go, I agree that many MAists try to be too cerebral about it regarding things like body mechanics, etc. By the time you're doing forms, those things should pretty much be ingrained with the basics.

[-N-]

Its just like alot of gung fu practitioners think they have powerful punches because it FEELS strong to the puncher. But it all changes with the blink of an eye when you bring in bag or pad work and get the practitioner to strike full power and they instantly realize they really don't hit as hard as they thought. :rolleyes:

I'm all for the heavy bag and spend a few hours on one every weekend.

But a few years ago, i didn't have the bag and was only kicking air. At that time, I joined a karate group to get extra sparring workout. They had inflatable kicking shields and they definately felt my roundhouse kicks and front kicks through the shields.

The blackbelts even asked me specifically how I trained to get that much power in my kicks. I told them, "Nothing special. I've just been kicking air a lot." They couldn't believe it.

I made sure they found out kf guys could fight too. Broke a few of their stereotypes for them.

[YouKnowWho]

We were talking about learning moves individually as opposed to learning them in a form.

Agree with you on that. May be we should say that it's better to learn "2 men drill" first before we learn "solo form" or "solo drill".

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

We do line drills of the same move over and over alternating sides as well as line drills of a string of moves (like 10 Roads Tan Tui). Yes, moves come before forms (short line drills or longer sets).



No, you learn the move with app before you learn the form. The form is just choreography for the moves you learned previously.

You can't learn apps then learn the move later. You can learn the move without learning the app but you can't learn an app without learning the move. If you learn the move without the app how do you know you're doing it correctly? If you don't know what you're doing you're just imitating and may or may not get it right.



If you equate fighting to applications then you're correct. IOW, the forms are a compilation of moves/apps, whether the form is intended as a database, example of combos, or attribute training. In all three cases I just mentioned as reasons for a form they still consist of individual moves.

I believe those moves/apps should be learned first, before learning the form.

You learn numbers first before manipulating them in equations. You learn words first before stringing them into sentences.

I agree with this completely.

It's my observation that forms are advanced body mechanics training, and a store house of the curriculum. They are for accomplished teachers, not students.

[MightyB]

We've all heard stories where some bad arse fights his way across China taking on all comers - kicking arse and taking names. Then he gets to some unknown sh!tsville village and comes across some old man who promptly hands him his arse. He then kow tows, makes a couple of animal sacrifices, and begs his way into the old man's heart to become the next inheritor of some super fist style.

There is a moral to that story/myth: The people could fight before they learned kung fu... and they weren't morally just self-righteous douche-bag martial knights.

[MightyB]

moral from this entire thread:

Forms are a great promotional tool and should denote rank in TCMA.

A "best practice" that can and should be adopted is that a person must display a certain amount of martial ability and understanding before they learn a form that denotes or connotates a certain rank or level in a given martial art.

Clarification: The demonstrated ability has to contain an element of kicking arse.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I'm all for the heavy bag and spend a few hours on one every weekend.

But a few years ago, i didn't have the bag and was only kicking air. At that time, I joined a karate group to get extra sparring workout. They had inflatable kicking shields and they definately felt my roundhouse kicks and front kicks through the shields.

The blackbelts even asked me specifically how I trained to get that much power in my kicks. I told them, "Nothing special. I've just been kicking air a lot." They couldn't believe it.

I made sure they found out kf guys could fight too. Broke a few of their stereotypes for them.

I think one of the preconceived notions is that kicks have to be practiced on a heavy bag or mitts all the time. You should be breaking it down and shadow boxing with your kicks, throwing all snapping and power kicks and refining technique. I just worked on this last night with my students at class, spent about an hour doing basics and mechanics for kicks and punches, the ABC's so to speak.

Throwing the kick in the air along with throwing the kick on a target are what builds distance, timing, speed, and power. All these things work together and the person's kicks will improve.

Way too much ignorance gets spouted about ONLY kicking mitts or heavy bags, or punching mitts or heavy bags. You still need a balance of both methods.;)

[Pork Chop]

Way too much ignorance gets spouted about ONLY kicking mitts or heavy bags, or punching mitts or heavy bags. You still need a balance of both methods.;)

Actually this is a big deal to sport folks.
The guys that know what they're doing recommend tons of shadow boxing - boxing, muay thai, sanshou, mma.
You have to know how to miss.

[hskwarrior]

You have to know how to miss.

true. you can give up your back big time if you don't know what to do after you miss.

[David Jamieson]

The question is still: "what is kung fu"

Is Kung Fu strictly martial arts? No. You would be wrong if you thought so and limited in your practice if that's all you did.

When undertaking study of Kung Fu what is the primary subject of study? Is it techniques? Strength? Conditioning? No. it's not these things. TO study Kung Fu is to study the self and to learn to cultivate positive energies that support that being IE you in all of it's endeavours.

Kung Fu is a manifest reality of the 8 fold path of Buddhism in on respect.
By learning how to achieve Kung Fu we learn:

1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right speech
4. Right action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right effort
7. Right mindfulness
8. Right concentration

1. - the right view is that we are not always going to be the best fighter or a champion, but that to work towards being the best we can is the right view.

2. - the right intention is why we begin to study and we we keep studying. We intend to bring good into the world through the cultivation of ourselves as a human being.

3. - Right speech is to discuss and to argue with decorum and to not fall down into the gutter of ad-hominem and meaningless hyperbole.

4. -Right action directs us to discern what is the proper course of action and to take it. This is derived from duly noting the rest of the 8 fold path.

5. - Right Livelihood. Don't use skills you've developed to harm others. This is a direct statement that you should not be involved in criminal activities.

6. - Right Effort. No half measures, either train or go fishing. Make the correct amount of effort. Not too much that you are paled and not so little that you have not made the right effort.

7. Right mindfulness. Your ethical and moral compass govern your mind and who and what you pay attention to,how thoroughly so is determined. be aware of the world and be aware of arguments being fed to you. Discern the false and leave it.

8. Right concentration - Focus on the task at hand, maintain sight of the goal. Don't stray into petty issues of ego and desire.

As much as some people desperately want to cast "Kung fu" as merely martial arts, it doesn't matter because it's not that. Martial Arts is certainly a Limb of Kung Fu.

Perhaps this is where the uninitiated struggle with the concept and can't get past their mma-vs-tcma arguments.

For what it is worth, it is not always correct to call all TCMA "Kung Fu" especially those systems that are corrupt, impeded by said corruption or incomplete in being able to finish out what is claimed to be in the curricula.

So, NO Kung Fu is NOT Buddhism. But in a very real sense it is related to that 8 fold path as far as what the achievement of Kung Fu produces as a person. Cultivation and maintenance are required. There is no end to Kung Fu practice except that which is brought by death. If you do not practice, you do not have Kung Fu.

It really is to strive to be a whole and balanced person. Capable of bringing harm or peace where needed through only the exercise of Kung Fu as manifest through the self.

Martial arts are otherwise all the same except in regards to focus on attack and defense as the model of fighting.

[Jimbo]

I'm all for the heavy bag and spend a few hours on one every weekend.

But a few years ago, i didn't have the bag and was only kicking air. At that time, I joined a karate group to get extra sparring workout. They had inflatable kicking shields and they definately felt my roundhouse kicks and front kicks through the shields.

The blackbelts even asked me specifically how I trained to get that much power in my kicks. I told them, "Nothing special. I've just been kicking air a lot." They couldn't believe it.

I made sure they found out kf guys could fight too. Broke a few of their stereotypes for them.

I believe, like weights or anything else, that heavy bag work as well as 'air work' can be overdone. They are both necessary. It's good to work one's tools to exhaustion at times, but if you work too much of something (say, kicking), it's easy to develop sloppiness/bad habits.

When I watch some MMA fights, I always found it odd when Joe Rogan acts amazed when a fighter snaps his roundhouse kick back when he misses instead of either swinging through in a full circle or temporarily leaving himself 'flapping in the wind,' meaning neither swinging fully through nor snapping it back. The latter clearly shows that the fighter only practices his kicks full-out into targets and pads and no little to no air kicking.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I believe, like weights or anything else, that heavy bag work as well as 'air work' can be overdone. They are both necessary. It's good to work one's tools to exhaustion at times, but if you work too much of something (say, kicking), it's easy to develop sloppiness/bad habits.

When I watch some MMA fights, I always found it odd when Joe Rogan acts amazed when a fighter snaps his roundhouse kick back when he misses instead of either swinging through in a full circle or temporarily leaving himself 'flapping in the wind,' meaning neither swinging fully through nor snapping it back. The latter clearly shows that the fighter only practices his kicks full-out into targets and pads and no little to no air kicking.

There seems to be some misconceptions about kicking into the air in your post.
The MT round kick can NOT be snapped back and that is what Joe is quite probably seeing the vast majority of times.
It has nothing to do with kicking the air or lack there-of because MT fighters shadowbox quite a bit, which would include kicking the air of course.

Every MA strikes the air, but they don't do it to develop impact force, they do it to develop the flexibility and "form" for correct kicking.

[Lucas]

i do it cuz i hate the air and it deserves to feel my power

[sanjuro_ronin]

i do it cuz i hate the air and it deserves to feel my power

And yet it survives !!

[Lucas]

And yet it survives !!

the wiley bastid!!

[Jimbo]

SJ, Looking back at my post, I can see your point.

I've not trained MT, but have trained with some friends who have. The main example in my mind was when a fighter misses a round kick (usually a leg kick) and neither snaps it back nor spins through, but instead leaves his leg dangling for about a second with his back partly exposed and arms akimbo. The guys I sparred with, when they would miss, tended to spin through the missed kick and often covered themselves with a spinning backfist or with their guard up. They did not snap their kicks, but tended to whip all the way through, sharply, when they missed or practiced air kicking (meaning their roundhouse kicks).

[sanjuro_ronin]

SJ, Looking back at my post, I can see your point.

I've not trained MT, but have trained with some friends who have. The main example in my mind was when a fighter misses a round kick (usually a leg kick) and neither snaps it back nor spins through, but instead leaves his leg dangling for about a second with his back partly exposed and arms akimbo. The guys I sparred with, when they would miss, tended to spin through the missed kick and often covered themselves with a spinning backfist or with their guard up. They did not snap their kicks, but tended to whip all the way through, sharply, when they missed or practiced air kicking (meaning their roundhouse kicks).

The hip extension and lack of snap (extension)in the MT round kick makes "snapping" it back impractical, to say the least.
A TKD round kick tends to use both knee and hip extension, one being prioritized over the other depending on range or which leg is used ( lead or rear).
leaving the leg "out there" is a no-no in every system that uses kick, unless the leg being left out there is gonna be "dropped" as part of a follow up attack.
A good solid kick with power and speed delivered to a target should NOT be ABLE to be "left out there", it will either follow-through or, upon reaching extension, "snap back".
Crappy kicks with no power or speed or form are those that get left out there like a soggy noodle.
And every one of us have thrown our share of noodle kicks, LOL !

[Pork Chop]

The MT round kick can NOT be snapped back and that is what Joe is quite probably seeing the vast majority of times.
It has nothing to do with kicking the air or lack there-of because MT fighters shadowbox quite a bit, which would include kicking the air of course.


The common conception of Thai fighters rotating through every round kick is also not 100% accurate. We may spin all the way through a round kick if it's a power shot, but it's not ideal.
Often, we either break connection at the hip, let the leg drop (but not touch the ground), then swing back (kinda like kicking a football or soccer ball); or we try to swing it all the way back from full extension (quite a bit more difficult). Kind of hard to describe.

Here, Buakaw starts bringing it back the last 30 seconds after his coach starts talking to him.
http://youtu.be/DRzfueeeAbI

[Jimbo]

Yes, I was referring to poor kicking in general, as opposed to one style's kicks vs. another.

And yes, I've 'noodle-kicked' before...esp. when very exhausted. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The common conception of Thai fighters rotating through every round kick is also not 100% accurate. We may spin all the way through a round kick if it's a power shot, but it's not ideal.
Often, we either break connection at the hip, let the leg drop (but not touch the ground), then swing back (kinda like kicking a football or soccer ball); or we try to swing it all the way back from full extension (quite a bit more difficult). Kind of hard to describe.

Here, Buakaw starts bringing it back the last 30 seconds after his coach starts talking to him.
http://youtu.be/DRzfueeeAbI

I don't recall saying that they spin through every kick but good points.

[Jimbo]

The common conception of Thai fighters rotating through every round kick is also not 100% accurate. We may spin all the way through a round kick if it's a power shot, but it's not ideal.
Often, we either break connection at the hip, let the leg drop (but not touch the ground), then swing back (kinda like kicking a football or soccer ball); or we try to swing it all the way back from full extension (quite a bit more difficult). Kind of hard to describe.

Here, Buakaw starts bringing it back the last 30 seconds after his coach starts talking to him.
http://youtu.be/DRzfueeeAbI

Thanks for the insights, Pork Chop.

[Pork Chop]

I don't recall saying that they spin through every kick but good points.

Wasn't implying that you were; more just trying to describe what happens when we don't rotate through the kick - ie that the leg is more likely to drop before it comes back.
Muay thai kicks with the hip, the leg is usually bent slightly until the moment of impact, and you're right that the retraction's going to come from the hip - not bending at the knee.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wasn't implying that you were; more just trying to describe what happens when we don't rotate through the kick - ie that the leg is more likely to drop before it comes back.
Muay thai kicks with the hip, the leg is usually bent slightly until the moment of impact, and you're right that the retraction's going to come from the hip - not bending at the knee.

The clip of Buakaw was excellent by the way.
He is born fighter that guy.
Beautiful form too ( though his punches are a bit too "thai" for me ;) )

[Pork Chop]

The clip of Buakaw was excellent by the way.
He is born fighter that guy.
Beautiful form too ( though his punches are a bit too "thai" for me ;) )

That's why you supplement with a little Ramon Dekkers. (http://youtu.be/WMZ6R71Y4Ww) :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's why you supplement with a little Ramon Dekkers. (http://youtu.be/WMZ6R71Y4Ww) :D

Dekkers was formidable.
One of those "define a generation" types.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I was taught to freestyle early on in CLF, as well. Actually shadow-boxing CLF style. You'd be surprised how many people can't do it. No, it isn't the same as actual sparring or fighting, but it's an invaluable exercise in developing spontaneity, flow, and coordination (in a solo training manner). Along with application drills, pad/bag work, and various levels of sparring, the freestyling helps make you move more naturally and automatically.

As far as forms go, I agree that many MAists try to be too cerebral about it regarding things like body mechanics, etc. By the time you're doing forms, those things should pretty much be ingrained with the basics.

That depends on your perspective. In my view forms work is more about *Advanced* body mechanics. By that I mean they are to take people already proficient in body mechanical skills to the next levels and beyond.

Anyone can do a few moves right. However to do an entire form, nonstop without a single break in structure or mechanics is a whole nuther mode of operations. You just can't get that level of refinement doing one or 2 move drills.

[David Jamieson]

That depends on your perspective. In my view forms work is more about *Advanced* body mechanics. By that I mean they are to take people already proficient in body mechanical skills to the next levels and beyond.

Anyone can do a few moves right. However to do an entire form, nonstop without a single break in structure or mechanics is a whole nuther mode of operations. You just can't get that level of refinement doing one or 2 move drills.

I think a lot of people who claim to hate forms are mostly that way because they don't know many, can't do many if any properly or correctly even after years of practice and when they get into the basics and learn some application stuff, suddenly forms are useless, even though, they really never undertook to absorb them as anything more than superficial movement.

Forms do things for your body that are beneficial as well. they set a foundation that it's very easy to pick up applicable moves off of.

But, haters are gonna hate. Most haters actually hate their own inadequacies, because otherwise, how could they possibly hate something they barely understand and for those people who say ineffective, or not efficient, what do they know? They are just saying these things and NOT once have I seen a clear argument regarding WHY forms are bad. Just blunt throw downs that they are.

Forms are a tool that can be used your whole life. they are interesting and generally work the whole body when they are well constructed.

Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people still make attempts at doing them well through practice. Even that says something about the value of them.

[Drake]

I like forms.

Doesn't mean I won't rip someone's heart out in an actual fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like forms.

Doesn't mean I won't rip someone's heart out in an actual fight.

I think everyone likes forms, heck I still have a few of the medals I won in forms competition, yes, that's right, FORMS COMPETITION !
:p
I remember my old TKD instructor telling me that, " Anyone can fight and beat up or get beat up, but forms takes skill and talent".
While I don't agree 100% I do know what he meant.

I think that no one really thinks forms have NO value, I just think that there is an issue with the DEGREE of value forms CAN have in regards to actual fighting.

[Jimbo]

I think a lot of people who claim to hate forms are mostly that way because they don't know many, can't do many if any properly or correctly even after years of practice and when they get into the basics and learn some application stuff, suddenly forms are useless, even though, they really never undertook to absorb them as anything more than superficial movement.

Forms do things for your body that are beneficial as well. they set a foundation that it's very easy to pick up applicable moves off of.

But, haters are gonna hate. Most haters actually hate their own inadequacies, because otherwise, how could they possibly hate something they barely understand and for those people who say ineffective, or not efficient, what do they know? They are just saying these things and NOT once have I seen a clear argument regarding WHY forms are bad. Just blunt throw downs that they are.

Forms are a tool that can be used your whole life. they are interesting and generally work the whole body when they are well constructed.

Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people still make attempts at doing them well through practice. Even that says something about the value of them.

DJ,
I don't know if you're implying that I'm a forms hater, but I'm not. I really don't see how you could equate my post with being a 'hater.' I like forms. I practice forms. Like SR, I still have medals from forms comps (Mantis and CLF forms). I don't do dozens of them, but I have several that I rotate among. IMO, they have their place, an important one in kung fu. My point was, that a lot of kung fu people seem to believe that by learning 'X-form' they will suddenly be given the key to some kind of greater secret fighting power (NOT saying you or RD's Alias are like that). When in fact a different form may expose them to new or variants of existing concepts. That's a different thing entirely from trying to generate power mainly through doing form work.

Of course, forms teach you to use your body in a greater range of movements and postures than 2-man application drills, sparring, etc., alone. And it's also been my experience that forms can actually augment, to a certain degree, in your ability to apply your art when used in conjunction with the other aspects (gong, basics, drills, applications, various levels of sparring, etc.). And yes to RD's Alias, doing forms properly is a whole different ballgame to doing basics or low-number combos. But it works both ways. Those who are solid in all the other aspects tend to have the better forms ... not prettier, just better. While forms are not a requirement for learning to fight, IMO they can add a richness and valuable physical/mental benefits for those who do practice them.

I'm neither a die-hard forms junkie nor a person with 'formophobia.'

[MightyB]

Forms actually decrease fighting ability... and overperformance of forms has been scientifically shown to decrease p3nile size and potency! :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Currently I practice the following forms:
Sanchin - the original Higaonna version
SanJian - Fujian WC verison
Sam bo jin- Southern Mantis version
tid sin kuen

[MightyB]

Currently I practice the following forms:
Sanchin - the original Higaonna version
SanJian - Fujian WC verison
Sam bo jin- Southern Mantis version
tid sin kuen


Forms actually decrease fighting ability... and overperformance of forms has been scientifically shown to decrease p3nile size and potency!
:D
See - made my point!

[sanjuro_ronin]

:D
See - made my point!

You Sir, have the boorish manners of a Yale man !
I find you bothersome and uncouth !
Good day to you sir !

*puts on monocle and top hat*

[TenTigers]

Forms actually decrease fighting ability... and overperformance of forms has been scientifically shown to decrease p3nile size and potency! :eek:
****, I woulda been fkin huge if it wernt for forms....

[TenTigers]

Currently I practice the following forms:
Sanchin - the original Higaonna version
SanJian - Fujian WC verison
Sam bo jin- Southern Mantis version
tid sin kuen
not gonna win you any forms comps.
Then again, I took second in the internal division once for doing TSK. Everyone else is dreamily doing Tai-Chi, and I come and bust out TSK.
One of the judges said to me, "I don't really know your system, and what exactly that form was, but I could see it was very internal, and your chi was amazing!"

freakin tai chi hippies.....

[Yao Sing]

<backwoods accent> I tried forms once, made me want to rape and kill</backwoods accent>
:p

[TenTigers]

<backwoods accent> I tried forms once, made me want to rape and kill</backwoods accent>
:p
must've been sam bo gin. Jow Faw Yup Moor!!!!:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

not gonna win you any forms comps.
Then again, I took second in the internal division once for doing TSK. Everyone else is dreamily doing Tai-Chi, and I come and bust out TSK.
One of the judges said to me, "I don't really know your system, and what exactly that form was, but I could see it was very internal, and your chi was amazing!"

freakin tai chi hippies.....

LOL !
No they aren't really competition oriented BUT they all develop something that I use in my day-to-day MA.
I debated long and hard as to whether I should keep Fu Hok kuen but I decided that if I was trying to find a reason to do it, then maybe it isn't what I need right now.

[David Jamieson]

Nope, not referring to you at all Jimbo.
Just referring to my own experience.
I still pretty much hold to that view.

[MightyB]

<backwoods accent> I tried forms once, made me want to rape and kill</backwoods accent>
:p

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/p480x480/394139_2969829202357_1160534852_32427196_120189717 4_n.jpg
..........

[David Jamieson]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/p480x480/394139_2969829202357_1160534852_32427196_120189717 4_n.jpg
..........

what's awesome about that poster is that it represents corporate/fascist influences being freely dropped on the public and government in order to do something that is entirely unrelated.

Back then, reefer madness was a plan to stop the kentucky hemp farmers from having the monopoly on resources for paper production. Hearst bought a way to make pulp from wood, deforest large tracts fo land and make paper while making "marajuana" (a mexican slang word) an "enemy". Meanwhile, it was done for greed and power and weed NEVER was anything like what your typical dust ****er thinks it is or was.

Not unlike how these days, those same dust ****ers are trying to invade your privacy and destroy your rights to privacy by presenting bills and legislation as ways of getting at paedophiles. What a load of rot.

It's a load of crap and it is one step towards an ever growing Orwellian nightmare.

On the other hand, one could challenge any of the people who say that forms doesn't help at all by telling us how they don't help a person develop?

so, anyone wanna field how exactly forms are detrimental to fighting development?

If you take up dance, it really helps your footwork in sword or in boxing. I'm still waiting for a clear explanation from anyone as to why forms are bad and can't help you understand physical conflict and areas of attack and defense?

[Yao Sing]

Sheesh, it was funny until the adults showed up and all.

[RenDaHai]

Forms actually decrease fighting ability... and overperformance of forms has been scientifically shown to decrease p3nile size and potency! :eek:

Yeah, thats why we shaolin developed exercises to counter those effects;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDGrQjH6BO0

[Pork Chop]

Currently I practice the following forms:
Sanchin - the original Higaonna version
SanJian - Fujian WC verison
Sam bo jin- Southern Mantis version
tid sin kuen

man any one of those would be fun.

the only ones i still remember & occasionally bust out are:
Small Tiger - Jow Gar
24 Step - Competition Taiji
Lian Huan Quan (probably spelling it wrong) - tang shr tao xingyi

learned 2 different versions of Gung Gee, but never kept it - not a fan of the deep, static stances, have thought about "raising" it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

man any one of those would be fun.

the only ones i still remember & occasionally bust out are:
Small Tiger - Jow Gar
24 Step - Competition Taiji
Lian Huan Quan (probably spelling it wrong) - tang shr tao xingyi

learned 2 different versions of Gung Gee, but never kept it - not a fan of the deep, static stances, have thought about "raising" it.

You shouldn't worry too much about modifying any form you know, its been done over and over by others before it ever got to you.
There are no real "pure" forms anymore, not in the sense of being unaltered from their creator to the last person that taught you.
Some of the "typical" modifications is stance height and pace and even distance covered.

[Pork Chop]

You shouldn't worry too much about modifying any form you know, its been done over and over by others before it ever got to you.
There are no real "pure" forms anymore, not in the sense of being unaltered from their creator to the last person that taught you.
Some of the "typical" modifications is stance height and pace and even distance covered.

I'm reluctant to try because I never did it enough to really get the form down in the first place (usually takes months and months of daily practice). So I would be trying to re-learn the form (from video i took at the time I learned it) and modifying it at the same time. Also, working out at home is rarely do-able for me with the 2 year-old.

I'll break out the video camera tonight and give it another stab if I can get a half hour to myself.
Thursday night yoga practice is turning out to be a logistical nightmare, so I'm thinking about trying something else for stretching & breathing.

[Lucas]

Buakaw Kick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gloGY3UDZDo&feature=player_embedded#!)

[bawang]

You shouldn't worry too much about modifying any form you know

when i do forms, it looks like im kickboxing.

[hskwarrior]

when i do forms, it looks like im kickboxing.

why are you kicking boxes? :confused:

[Pork Chop]

Found this vid today while looking up a mantis form referenced in another thread:
http://youtu.be/xh_Bt0Pljn4
I'm really liking the first part: slip, up-parry, straight punch.
The follow up is a little awkward, even in the video.
I think I would look at the downward press, hop-step, bring the knee up & stomp as a clinch, hop-step, and lead knee instead - but with my muay thai background, I'm biased.
If I was a mma guy (or even as a sanshou guy), after the parry & punch, I would probably go for a high single - coz you're already in perfect position.

[Pork Chop]

I doubt anybody's checking this thread anyway; but I found another cool vid.
These guys are kung fu cousins to the first school I trained at:
http://youtu.be/Y_xAf_P8Bt4
There's some of that that I'm not a huge fan of; but there's some stuff that's nice.

[-N-]

I doubt anybody's checking this thread anyway; but I found another cool vid.
These guys are kung fu cousins to the first school I trained at:
http://youtu.be/Y_xAf_P8Bt4
There's some of that that I'm not a huge fan of; but there's some stuff that's nice.

Their "Japanese" kung fu is better than what I've seen from a lot of people. :)

[-N-]

The follow up is a little awkward, even in the video.

Not just the followup, even

[dirtyrat]

Found this vid today while looking up a mantis form referenced in another thread:
http://youtu.be/xh_Bt0Pljn4
I'm really liking the first part: slip, up-parry, straight punch.
The follow up is a little awkward, even in the video.
I think I would look at the downward press, hop-step, bring the knee up & stomp as a clinch, hop-step, and lead knee instead - but with my muay thai background, I'm biased.
If I was a mma guy (or even as a sanshou guy), after the parry & punch, I would probably go for a high single - coz you're already in perfect position.

the up-parry occurs 1st, followed by the slip & straight punch. although in my 1st kung fu style, we would actually used the slip 1st followed by an uppercut to the arm (using the "slipping" hand as a measure) instead of an up-parry. then we follow the arm with maybe a phoenix-eye punch to the arm-pit. our choice in footwork is also a bit different. not such a big movement.

[Pork Chop]

Not just the followup, even

Yah the thrust kicks just aren't doing it for me.
In muay thai, we have stomps from the clinch ("dirty" technique) - front of the knee, side of the knee, top of the foot - but they're close range stomps; not so much "thrusting".
If he did a knee then a downward stomp, or a knee & then a penetrating step through (like to set up a "cut" or a hip throw); I think I could see it working better.

[Pork Chop]

the up-parry occurs 1st, followed by the slip & straight punch. although in my 1st kung fu style, we would actually used the slip 1st followed by an uppercut to the arm (using the "slipping" hand as a measure) instead of an up-parry. then we follow the arm with maybe a phoenix-eye punch to the arm-pit. our choice in footwork is also a bit different. not such a big movement.

I'd like to see it in action.
I've punched incoming punches before, when I had trouble getting the angle on a good parry. I've never seen it with an uppercut.
I like to parry and do head movement at the same time - kinda like extra insurance.
Shots to the armpits hurt; they were a big target in bareknuckle boxing.

[dirtyrat]

I'd like to see it in action.
I've punched incoming punches before, when I had trouble getting the angle on a good parry. I've never seen it with an uppercut.
I like to parry and do head movement at the same time - kinda like extra insurance.
Shots to the armpits hurt; they were a big target in bareknuckle boxing.

i'm sure you could figure it out with by practicing it some friends.

we had two types of ready stance: neutral (self-defense) & fighting (sparring). we mainly trained on the neutral stance, because my teacher's focus was self-defense.

yes, you would use a head movement with the slip, but we kept our movements tight. often times we would just turn the foot out (same side as the parrying hand, of course) from the neutral stance & turn the head and shifting the weight.

with the uppercut, you would strike with the proximal interphangeal joints (sorry, my medical background's kicking in) instead of the main knuckles (metacarpal phalangeal joints). the target is that sensitive spot on the elbow. you could hit the wrist as well, but then you would be using the metacarpal-phalangeal joints. you would using the parrying hand as a measure. its not so much a power shot; just to distract his mind.

[Mike Patterson]

I doubt anybody's checking this thread anyway; but I found another cool vid.
These guys are kung fu cousins to the first school I trained at:
http://youtu.be/Y_xAf_P8Bt4
There's some of that that I'm not a huge fan of; but there's some stuff that's nice.

That's Masaki Senga. He was trained by Hsu Hong Chi (my teacher) in the 70's. What they do is not exactly what he was taught through Tang Shou Tao, but he has incorporated some of the concepts nicely. I had seen this vid myself once before when surfing about and it made my smile. Thanks for bringing it up again. :)

[SPJ]

Some other threads got me to thinking about this -

Prior to 1880, JuJitsu was just a collection of favorite techniques practiced by thugs (described this way by Kano himself - you look up the articles). It was associated with criminals and the Yakuza and really wasn't something that a civilized person would do. He changed all that by finding a single unifying principle "ju" and then codified the main body of techniques and Kata. He took out the most lethal moves and yada yada yada... Olympic sport.

I say we reverse engineer TCMA starting with analyzing forms.

My theory is that a TCMA style was a collection of favorite dirty tricks. Look at any form. Even if you perfect the whole form, out of that form of say some 50 techniques, you'll probably only find 3 or 4 that are personally applicable to you. Those would be your "go to" techniques. If you perfect those techniques against a living opponent, I think you'll find your true martial ability growing in leaps and bounds.

Thoughts and discussion.

we walk one step at a time.

we also learn

or practice one move or one posture at a time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2JlPEbfitI

[David Jamieson]

I think if one practices mindfulness and awareness they increase their potential overall in any endeavour.

Many people are not mindful of their practice and come at it from ego or from someone else's direction.

We can all increase strength and conditioning.

We can all have a toolkit that serves us for our fighting needs.

If you compete, great! If you train in solitude, great!

Simply be aware.