Alan Orr Questions 4 - Chain Punching

[Alan Orr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZnIVhighInU

Filmed a load of clips this week.

This one is on chain punching.

best Alan

[nasmedicine]

Very well put together video and I agree with your POV. Hopefully this video will not start another pointless argument about how "it's not wing chun".

[wingchunIan]

great clip and commentary, only thing I'd add (which you kind of covered but addressed as a weakness for beginers) is that if the opportunity is there to hit then the ability to strikie again quickly allows you to take it. If the line is open there's no need to look for another one, you simply keep hitting until the opponent does something to make you change ie throws something back, puts something in the way etc.
One of the biggest downers I have on so called wing chun sparring / fighting clips is when you see people "chain punching" way out of range and at all costs with no attention to what the opponent is doing

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Chaining" strikes (punches or otherwise) is simply linking them together in a fluid series of strikes.
The issue I see a lot is that they do NOT have enough impact force to compromise the opponents structure ( defense and ability to counter) or they are thrown too far out or they are not linked together with the footwork.
Great clip Alan.
The crucial element of any chine striking is, IMO, the first and/or second strike, if they are NOT powerful enough to cause the opponent to "cover up" or are not powerful enough to keep the opponent from countering then the puncher is left open to counters, especially hooks as Alan showed.

[kung fu fighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZnIVhighInU

Filmed a load of clips this week.

This one is on chain punching.

best Alan

very good example of linking defense to bring in offense



If the line is open there's no need to look for another one, you simply keep hitting until the opponent does something to make you change ie throws something back, puts something in the way etc.
One of the biggest downers I have on so called wing chun sparring / fighting clips is when you see people "chain punching" way out of range and at all costs with no attention to what the opponent is doing

I agree!


The crucial element of any chine striking is, IMO, the first and/or second strike, if they are NOT powerful enough to cause the opponent to "cover up" or are not powerful enough to keep the opponent from countering then the puncher is left open to counters, especially hooks as Alan showed.

Depends on your angle!

[kung fu fighter]

The crucial element of any chine striking is, IMO, the first and/or second strike, if they are NOT powerful enough to cause the opponent to "cover up" or are not powerful enough to keep the opponent from countering then the puncher is left open to counters, especially hooks as Alan showed.

It depends on your angle!

[sanjuro_ronin]

It depends on your angle!

No, not really because unless you hit him hard enough he will adjust to whatever angle you happen to be at.
Angleing out and hitting from the blind side is great of course, but unless your strikes do enough, you opponent will have the very nasty and irritating habit of hitting you back ( or countering you in some other method).
IMO, nothing is more crucial than compromising the opponents structure ie: his ability to counter what you are doing.

[jesper]

great video alan :D

Think the greatest difference in chain punching - at least as I was brought up - was in the tactical application.

As a new rookie we were taught to just go at it and overwhelm the opponent with relentless strikes and kicks. does that work against a good fighter, nope but then as a rookie your more or less ****ed in that situation anyway and your best bet will be in using a really agressive strategy and pretty much hope for the best. it will however teach you to quickly end fights against most "normal" opponents.

Later as you progress you learn to apply other strategems and concepts and chain punching takes more of a backseat, or at the very least change nature so its not so much a matter of trading punches, like you showed in your demo.

[kung fu fighter]

No, not really because unless you hit him hard enough he will adjust to whatever angle you happen to be at.

Agree, however getting an angle allows you more time to be able to counter attack proactively against his hook punch, because he would have to square back up to be able to reach you with his hook punch, thus travelling atleast twice the distance which takes more time, not to mention he has to square back up to even find you. This allows you to either intercept his attack or change your angle again. In essence he is always one step behind on timing (he is always playing catch up)

Punching power is a whole different topic, without strong punching power, you're gambling/taking risk anyway.

[Yoshiyahu]

These two guys are right on the money. I perfer chain punching after I got an intial opening. If I land a strike then i will turn it into chain punching an overwhelm you. I like to have control of the opponents center before I chain punch. i feel its safer and you can advoid an opponent timing your chainpunching if you are bridging with his face with each and every hit. although I utilize chain punching to time my opponent from the outside or create entries to hit him. Not so much bridging the gap. But once the gap is bridge I will utilize it keep him off balance. But as I chain punch I will slip other techniques in an chain them together like using your horse to generate power with the waist an utilizing Toh Ma, Biu Ma and Cho Ma to add force to the strikes!!!



chain punching down the floor at my opponent is fruitless. why Chain punch in the air. I rather do so when i have a connection and I can actually hit something. The only time I see raining chain punch against someone is a person who isnt moving alot. Then you can chain punch and kick simultaneously to hit him low and high or make him cover. Once you have him covering your can manipulate his structure and hit him anywhere else vunerable.


great clip and commentary, only thing I'd add (which you kind of covered but addressed as a weakness for beginers) is that if the opportunity is there to hit then the ability to strikie again quickly allows you to take it. If the line is open there's no need to look for another one, you simply keep hitting until the opponent does something to make you change ie throws something back, puts something in the way etc.
One of the biggest downers I have on so called wing chun sparring / fighting clips is when you see people "chain punching" way out of range and at all costs with no attention to what the opponent is doing


"Chaining" strikes (punches or otherwise) is simply linking them together in a fluid series of strikes.
The issue I see a lot is that they do NOT have enough impact force to compromise the opponents structure ( defense and ability to counter) or they are thrown too far out or they are not linked together with the footwork.
Great clip Alan.
The crucial element of any chine striking is, IMO, the first and/or second strike, if they are NOT powerful enough to cause the opponent to "cover up" or are not powerful enough to keep the opponent from countering then the puncher is left open to counters, especially hooks as Alan showed.

[WingChunABQ]

Nice video, but it's not Wing Chun.

[WingChunABQ]

Just kidding. Good stuff! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agree, however getting an angle allows you more time to be able to counter attack proactively against his hook punch, because he would have to square back up to be able to reach you with his hook punch, thus travelling atleast twice the distance which takes more time, not to mention he has to square back up to even find you. This allows you to either intercept his attack or change your angle again. In essence he is always one step behind on timing (he is always playing catch up)

Punching power is a whole different topic, without strong punching power, you're gambling/taking risk anyway.

You may be missing my point Nav, if your strike doesn't compromise his structure your angle won't mean much.
It seems you are assuming he can't make adjustments, which we know that is NOT the case UNLESS he is "too busy" with something else, that something being having to deal with the force of the impact of the initial strike(s).
How many times have we seen a boxer KO'd in the middle of his combos?
Enough to realize that the impact of our strikes MUST compromise the opponent or else.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its not just striking, its taking advantage of momentum behind strikes from both opponents....a skill we work on.

Explain please.

[kung fu fighter]

You may be missing my point Nav, if your strike doesn't compromise his structure your angle won't mean much.
It seems you are assuming he can't make adjustments, which we know that is NOT the case UNLESS he is "too busy" with something else, that something being having to deal with the force of the impact of the initial strike(s).
How many times have we seen a boxer KO'd in the middle of his combos?
Enough to realize that the impact of our strikes MUST compromise the opponent or else.

Hey Bro!
Hitting is only one way of comprising the opponent's structure. a very effective way, but still only one method.

All I am saying is if the opponent adjust, we also adjust our angle accordingly to deal with his adjustment. Fighting is alive always changing from moment to moment, So my position is not fixed, if the opponent adjust his angle to square up to me I adjust as well to keep a positional advantage, being on an angle allows you to read his intent early enough to stay just ahead of him in regards to timing and gaining an advantageous position. This forces the oponent to take the long route, while I take the short root, therefore I am more economical in my movements, moving less but arriving first. One thing I should mention is that this is all going on while I am hitting him multiple times from all different angles as his lines are opening.

There are lots of tank abbott types out there who can take a good punch. Without angular positioning and timing, even if we have amazing power we will still end up trading with them. In my opinion Boxers are some of the hardest punchers out there, because that's there main area of focus. How many times in a boxing match have you seen boxers exchange punches with little effect on both combatants, Unless it's one in a million like a young Mike Tyson.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey Bro!
Hitting is only one way of comprising the opponent's structure. a very effective way, but still only one method.

True, but we are talking about chain striking so...


All I am saying is if the opponent adjust, we also adjust our angle accordingly to deal with his adjustment. Fighting is alive always changing from moment to moment, So my position is not fixed, if the opponent adjust his angle to square up to me I adjust as well to keep a positional advantage, being on an angle allows you to read his intent early enough to stay just ahead of him in regards to timing and gaining an advantageous position. This forces the oponent to take the long route, while I take the short root, therefore I am more economical in my movements, moving less but arriving first. One thing I should mention is that this is all going on while I am hitting him multiple times from all different angles as his lines are opening.

As long as you don't assume that your opponent is reacting to you instead of ACTING upon you.


There are lots of tank abbott types out there who can take a good punch. Without angular positioning and timing, even if we have amazing power we will still end up trading with them. In my opinion Boxers are some of the hardest punchers out there, because that's there main area of focus. How many times in a boxing match have you seen boxers exchange punches with little effect on both combatants, Unless it's one in a million like a young Mike Tyson.

For sure, but in a certain way you are making my point and while I agree that angleing if crucial, i maintain my point that all the angles in the world won't save you from getting hit if the opponent isn't "preoccupied" with what you are doing.

Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard.
WC does NOT advocate the "get in, hit and get out" strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.

[WC1277]

Similar explanation.....

http://www.fongswingchun.com/ChainPunchDemo.mp4

[kung fu fighter]

True, but we are talking about chain striking so...



As long as you don't assume that your opponent is reacting to you instead of ACTING upon you.



For sure, but in a certain way you are making my point and while I agree that angleing if crucial, i maintain my point that all the angles in the world won't save you from getting hit if the opponent isn't "preoccupied" with what you are doing.

Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard.
WC does NOT advocate the "get in, hit and get out" strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.
I didn't know that you were referring to Chainpunching like how the Leung ting guys apply it. I don't apply it that way, the way I apply it is linking defense to bring in offense. So my retreating hand is always doing something to set up or clear the way for my forward striking hand.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I didn't know that you were referring to Chainpunching like how the Leung ting guys apply it. I don't apply it that way, the way I apply it is linking defense to bring in offense. So my retreating hand is always doing something to set up or clear the way for my forward striking hand.

I think we may be talking a bit past each other or maybe about different things...allow me to clarify:
To repeat this part because it is crucial:
Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard.
WC does NOT advocate the "get in, hit and get out" strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.

I don't recall any WC principle that advocates going in, hitting and getting out.
Do you?

[WingChunABQ]

Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard.
WC does NOT advocate the "get in, hit and get out" strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.


I'd agree with that. The controlling hands half of chain punching demonstrated in the videos are the WC answer to the problem of the other guy hitting back.

Good controlling hands are pretty hard to do in reality.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'd agree with that. The controlling hands half of chain punching demonstrated in the videos are the WC answer to the problem of the other guy hitting back.

Good controlling hands are pretty hard to do in reality.

And that really is the jist of it, in reality it is very hard to control the hands/arms of an opponent that is hitting us, especially of we are hitting ( trying to) hit him at the same time.
And this "same timeing" happens a lot in a real fight.

[WingChunABQ]

Yup. Takes a lot of training and practice.

As for "getting out", there are several examples of the principle in the footwork of the Chum Kiu, Biu Jee and Wooden Dummy forms.

[Vajramusti]

I think we may be talking a bit past each other or maybe about different things...allow me to clarify:
To repeat this part because it is crucial:
Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard.
WC does NOT advocate the "get in, hit and get out" strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.

I don't recall any WC principle that advocates going in, hitting and getting out.
Do you?
----------------------------------------------
Boxing strategy -of get in, hit and get out is different from wc strategy of both hands and both side working together (north paw/ south paw ambidextrous work) and controlling. Wing chun takes longer to learn than boxing. Although in old boxing hip throws were known- with the evolution of boxing rules it's primarily a striking art-
with the referee stopping throwing, grabbing, etc-the wing chun tool box is full of contoling tools. IMO and practice.Striking is only part of the wing chun game in my pov FWIW. Other povs can vary

PS I understood Alan's good distinction between a good punch and one where the elbow goes straight up losing power.


joy chaudhuri.

[kung fu fighter]

Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard.

Although this is all true, In boxing one is also taught how to use angles and ring generalship. In fact Angles work off anticipating the opponent is going to hit back.


WC does NOT advocate the "get in, hit and get out" strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.

I agree, that's because WC works best in between clinching and boxing range, and prefers to fight in close. where as boxing uses the stick and move strategy which is more suited to long range fighters.

The wooden dummy techniques is a better example of how wing chun should function than chain punching in my opinion.



I don't recall any WC principle that advocates going in, hitting and getting out. Do you?

I agree in empty hands fighting, the exception probably being when fighting with baat jam do or pole and you have to regroup.

[Yoshiyahu]

The Video is nice one from a boxing stand point...But chain punching in a static Posistion is unrealistic.

In Wing Chun we desire to end the fight quickly. Wing Chun is not an art about sticking and moving or slugging it out toe to toe with a guy to see who has the strongest chin. Wing Chun is about Controlling your opponent structure,elbow, centerline and posture. It's about sticking or forward pressure to continously attack your opponent like a swarm of bees. Its about Continously attacking and hitting a guy until he is no more. No stick and move...Just stick and attack constantly...

there are various techniques in WC that utilize different aspects to control the opponent. There are also various basic Techniques that train power or the utilization of power in different facets...

Such as:

1.The Meridan Punch generates it power from YGKYM while facing the opponent. It uses the curl to issue force.

2.The Dragon punch is lauch from the YGKYM while turning the body or shifting the stance. In other words you use your waist to generate power. The power is generated and issued by way of Cho Ma.

3.The Arrow Punch is launched from the ding ma or forward stance. The Arrow Punch uses chasing steps or shooting steps to transfer power from the body. Your body weight adds more power to your punch as you front step either to keep up or to dart in. Its power comes from Toh Ma or Biu ma. You can combine Dragon Punch and Toh Ma for even greater power. An of course Biu ma allows for you to generate even more power since your body structure is being launched with greater velocity.

4.Chain Punch is different. It is practiced and drilled in YGKYM at first. In the air you can learn how to do three star chain punch and continous chain punch non-stop. Both have various applications I wont go into. But with the continous chain punch...One needs timing and senstivity to get it off properly. You dont just start chain punching for no reason. You have to either create an opening or feel for one. Creating Openings should be taught in san shou drills and also bridging the gap drills. Feeling for openings should be taught in chi sau which is the way you develop sensitivity in my wing chun. Gor sau is how you intergrate, innovate and culminate the skills, principles and theories learn from the system. Everything from the forms, drills, and chi sau should be intergrated into applicable fighting unit. If you lack Sensitivity how can you adapt to your opponents attack or counter attack. If you just go blinding running across the room chain punching in the air do expect your opponent to stand there an wait to be hit. You have apply chain punch when he doesn't realize it is coming. Basic Techniques like Pak Da or Lop Dap or Jut Da give you the distraction you need to create an opening to utilize continous linked attacks. Once you utilize a meridan punch or arrow punch to gain entry or you damage your opponents structure you can launch the dreaded chain punches...The chain punch is not as powerful as the arrow punch or meridan punch, But it is faster than they are.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie02_01.jpg


To build up your chain punch you can utilize a wall bag and a heavy bag to cultivate more power. In addition to that you can use wrist weights or dumb bells to develop more speed in power...Doing chain punch in the air slowly, medium and fast with weights will give you greater impact. Explosive push ups are also great in addition to other forms of push ups respective lineages may have. One should train every part of the punch indiviually and then all together. Such as the wrist, the Arm, The waist and the hips and the root.


If your chain punch is so weak that an opponent can launch a hook or an upper cut you need to work on basics first...If you are consecutively sticking and chain punching your opponent shouldnt be able to do anything but fall. The idea is to overwhelm him with precision strikes to his weak points to destroy his structure, control his centerline and make him no more. Punch when you should. Don't Punch when you shouldn't. You should have sensitivy and know when to strike. Your strickes should be precise and accurate. When you chain punch you apply Toh Ma and Biu Ma to generate power power with your chain punch. The speed is from the chain punch, the power is from Biu Ma. Your weight transfers behind your punches and your structure carries your power.

-Also One Should develop Skill-

If you have all techninque and principles but No skill your WC will be weak...The following is what makes up your skill level and makes you a better fighter...

1.Endurance
2.Stamina
3.Strength
4.Flexibility
5.Power
6.Speed
7.Coordination
8.Agility
9.Accuracy
10.Balance
11.Timing
12.Sensitivity

[nasmedicine]

It depends on your angle!

I agree angles are effective and important, the following was plucked from Augustine Fong's Website, this is something that we are already know however I will post it for emphasis.

"Do not collide with a strong opponent.

A strong opponent's defense cannot by easily blasted through; consequently you should not attack or contact the opponent's power straight on. When faced with strong power do no go against it. Instead go around the direction of the power to attack at an angle so that you are not colliding with the strong position. The feeling of when to go in and when to go around is developed through wing chun sticky hands practice. This principle is also for timing so that when you feel strong power, that is not the time to attack directly but to go around. "
Source: http://www.fongswingchun.com/FIGHTING.pdf

If you have the ability to knock out every opponent with ever shot then you are a rare case. In reality there are those who can and can not take a well placed hit. For those who can, it is obvious that they will counter and this is the whole point of training chi sao, gor sao then graduating to sparing in wing chun. It is in those exercises that you can develop "your" ability to link/chain your attack while simultaneously trying to defend. And by defend I mean to either avoid trading hits or making it an "uneven trade". Angle's not only help you with defense (as phil would say using the blind side) but they also help with offense. Speed and timing are a must. What you can't do with one hit you must do with more than one. There are not absolutes in wing chun or fighting in general. In any case that is my opinion, again great video Alan, keep them coming.

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZnIVhighInU

Filmed a load of clips this week.

This one is on chain punching.

best Alan

FWIW I thought the best part of Alans clip was when he mentions the practicality in function of chained strikes being akin to the speedball training of a boxer. Learning static drills of lien wan kuen to develop a habit is one thing, and being able to apply this method in the thick of it is another. I agree 100%

But I will add that there seems to be confusion about the language implication with this sort of fistwork. Not so much from Alan, but from some of the posts here. 'Lien Wan Kuen' implies that the fists are linked and revolving continuously, More of a 'stunning' method for fast hands. If, like Alan, you are well versed enough to react to an aggressive fighter and continue to link up these fists you are doing something right ;) but this isn't 'only' Lien Wan because there is an element of receiving and giving pressure too. FME and learning we referred to this method as Seep Dai and this is exactly what Alan acheives here, continuing to express his Lien Wan fist work while receiving continuous attacks in different ways.

This is called Seep Dai Lien Wan Kuen.

So to be clear on the 'power' thing. If you are charging through the defense continuously, with pretty much no regard for what's coming back atcha, this is called Lien Wan Chong Kuen. If you are stop/starting (but still quite continous) like in the clip you ar doing Seep Dai Lien Wan Kuen.

Both are simple ways of expressing the Wing Chun Fist, and both are present in Alans clip just not the only methods available to us, as (I think) Yoshi was also trying to explain.

[CFT]

Hi Spencer, do you have the characters for 'seep dai' at hand? I can't think of what they could be from your description.

[LoneTiger108]

Hi Spencer, do you have the characters for 'seep dai' at hand? I can't think of what they could be from your description.

Now that would be 'sharing too much' lol! ;) I will see when I get home...

[CFT]

Really?!! TIA.

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree if your opponent can regain his posture from concussive chain punches then you need to be able to switch in the thick of things.

Personally you can train chain punches as 'Finishing techniques or entry technique(works well on weaker opponents).

I perfer to blast my opponent with a meridan punch first while or pak da or lop da to open his gates an stun him for a second before intiating linked chain punches.


When I start to cycle of continous chainpunches the idea in mind is to completely keep you compromise, off balance and hurt you. I not randomly hitting your head with link chains. My punches are bashing in your nose each and every time. As you move back i move in still punching the center of your face and hitting that Nose.


FWIW I thought the best part of Alans clip was when he mentions the practicality in function of chained strikes being akin to the speedball training of a boxer. Learning static drills of lien wan kuen to develop a habit is one thing, and being able to apply this method in the thick of it is another. I agree 100%

But I will add that there seems to be confusion about the language implication with this sort of fistwork. Not so much from Alan, but from some of the posts here. 'Lien Wan Kuen' implies that the fists are linked and revolving continuously, More of a 'stunning' method for fast hands. If, like Alan, you are well versed enough to react to an aggressive fighter and continue to link up these fists you are doing something right ;) but this isn't 'only' Lien Wan because there is an element of receiving and giving pressure too. FME and learning we referred to this method as Seep Dai and this is exactly what Alan acheives here, continuing to express his Lien Wan fist work while receiving continuous attacks in different ways.

This is called Seep Dai Lien Wan Kuen.

So to be clear on the 'power' thing. If you are charging through the defense continuously, with pretty much no regard for what's coming back atcha, this is called Lien Wan Chong Kuen. If you are stop/starting (but still quite continous) like in the clip you ar doing Seep Dai Lien Wan Kuen.

Both are simple ways of expressing the Wing Chun Fist, and both are present in Alans clip just not the only methods available to us, as (I think) Yoshi was also trying to explain.

[wingchunIan]

I think we may be talking a bit past each other or maybe about different things...allow me to clarify:
To repeat this part because it is crucial:
Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard.
WC does NOT advocate the "get in, hit and get out" strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.

I don't recall any WC principle that advocates going in, hitting and getting out.
Do you?

can't say i agree with this statement. Only boxers who have no power are trained in this way. Every boxing coach I've ever trained under emphasised the need to hurt the opponent and then stay on top of him with relentless combinations, the only caveat was taking care not to "gas" which is only relevant when wearing gloves as not many people can take more than a couple of well placed bare knuckle blows. There are plenty of top boxers who equally adopt a strategy of staying in the pocket because it suits their physical and mental attributes.
I'd agree though that the WC I learn / teach doesn't advocate a get in and get out approach, as having done all of the hard work to close the distance and get into range (typically inside many strikers prefered range) the last thing I want to do is bounce back out again to have to do it all again.

[sanjuro_ronin]

can't say i agree with this statement. Only boxers who have no power are trained in this way. Every boxing coach I've ever trained under emphasised the need to hurt the opponent and then stay on top of him with relentless combinations, the only caveat was taking care not to "gas" which is only relevant when wearing gloves as not many people can take more than a couple of well placed bare knuckle blows. There are plenty of top boxers who equally adopt a strategy of staying in the pocket because it suits their physical and mental attributes.
I'd agree though that the WC I learn / teach doesn't advocate a get in and get out approach, as having done all of the hard work to close the distance and get into range (typically inside many strikers prefered range) the last thing I want to do is bounce back out again to have to do it all again.

You know that "get out" doesn't mean "get back" or "move back" right?
It means hit and get to an area that you can't get counter punched at, like Tyson, Leonard, Jones and many others did.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Up the pressure and this is chain punching;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgoP37DVNSs

Suki

[Alan Orr]

Up the pressure and this is chain punching;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgoP37DVNSs

Suki

No this is a stronger opponent beating up a weaker opponent.

[Alan Orr]

You get an idea of why we spend so many hours conditioning a punching elbow. :D

Don't put all your eggs in the same basket.

[Yoshiyahu]

So you think the chain punch is basically a useless tool.



Don't put all your eggs in the same basket.

[Alan Orr]

So you think the chain punch is basically a useless tool.

I never said that at all. Why do people always post what 'I think'. Please ask me question or ask me, but don't said telling me what I think.

Chain punching is great training and conditioning. Its good for learning line and elbow control and position changes. But to use as a main attack in chi sao for example would be limited, as you would be just wasting what the main point of chi sao is all about. To be able to keep pressure on your opponent and control them. If you are just chain punching at them you may control or overwhelm a weaker less skilled opponent - but that not developing anything new. Being able to read and counter as you attack is a developing skill. All I am saying is a lot of guys just chain punch without any defence and it becomes a bad habit. That means in sparring they end up attacking with chain punches and become very open for counters.

Also I see chain punch as a chain or link of punches ( which is what I said on the clip) so it can be in one line or many lines of attack. I would maybe hit 1-3 in the same line if it was really open and the opponent was off balance, otherwise I would punch 1-6 on different lines and with different beats - in order to keep control and hold a good defence at the same time.

[Yoshiyahu]

Im sorry i stand corrected. I wrote the statement wrong. Sometimes I word things statements when Im really meaning it in a question form. but yes I by no means meant to asssume that you think that chain punch is an useless tool. I was simply asking a question because you keep saying that chain punch in general doesn't work on skilled fighters. Now chainpunch is not first or even the main technique we use. But we still use it. Its very effective if you know when to use it or slip it in as I say.

Infact we believe in the FLOW or linking attacks together in a continous motions from multiple vectors,directions, angles etc. We dont just chain down the middle with downward circle punches. We strike from everwhere while taking the centerline an controlling it with entry techniques like pak da, jum da, lop da, and jut da for starters.


Also let me reintrate. Your explanation of the principles behind chain punch is right on the money. I totally agree with you with people who only use chain punch and front kick as their wing chun techniques. Im glad you have videos that deal with using wing chun in a mma enviroment. But I feel that some of your adaptation may be watering down the wing chun or totally changing it from its purpose. I think your innovations may work well against Trained MMA person with some BJJ skill. But a season street fighter i dont know. Just because you practice Martial Arts, WC, or BJJ or MMA everyday and beat some top contenders doesn't mean some thug street fighter can't mop your top. Especially if thats all he been doing since he was eight years.


I try to adapt my WC to the street fighting scenario because thats all I encounter when i started learning WC. In fact thats the reason why i learned WC in the first place to deal with a street fighter. AS for MMA. If i was to train...i think Muay Thai Kicks, and elbows, Boxing Punches and strategies, and BJJ submissions and escapes and redirections are best suited for MMA. You can use some techniques from WC. But the whole format of WC is to hurt your opponent bad really fast so he cant continue to fight. In a MMA bout its about superior endurance, superior stamina and superior conditioning whens nine times out of ten. Just my opinion.


Both fighters are basically defensive fighters waiting patiently for an opening. In the streets Fist just start going. A person wants to fight you. He just rushes you or you rush him. No feints, No waiting, No bobbing and weaving or covering in the streets just hit hit hit. I think WC spring bridge arms and flow are good for that...Controlling the opponent so you can hit him at the same time is great effective tool.


I guess where we differ is I see Chain Punching as both a conditioning and training tool as well as actual technique to be utilize by the principle it teaches. I see the chain punch as tool that is best used in conjunction with your moving horse. To keep your opponent flailing. But I dont think it will work all the time. You need to be in posistion and have an opening to apply it.



I never said that at all. Why do people always post what 'I think'. Please ask me question or ask me, but don't said telling me what I think.

Chain punching is great training and conditioning. Its good for learning line and elbow control and position changes. But to use as a main attack in chi sao for example would be limited, as you would be just wasting what the main point of chi sao is all about. To be able to keep pressure on your opponent and control them. If you are just chain punching at them you may control or overwhelm a weaker less skilled opponent - but that not developing anything new. Being able to read and counter as you attack is a developing skill. All I am saying is a lot of guys just chain punch without any defence and it becomes a bad habit. That means in sparring they end up attacking with chain punches and become very open for counters.

Also I see chain punch as a chain or link of punches ( which is what I said on the clip) so it can be in one line or many lines of attack. I would maybe hit 1-3 in the same line if it was really open and the opponent was off balance, otherwise I would punch 1-6 on different lines and with different beats - in order to keep control and hold a good defence at the same time.

[Phil Redmond]

There's an old saying that goes, the best way to beat a WC guy is with round punches.
Alan's clip explained why. ;)

[YouKnowWho]

There's an old saying that goes, the best way to beat a WC guy is with round punches.
Alan's clip explained why. ;)
A 45 degree downward hook punch can deflect all your straight line punches.

- The straight line can be used to defeat the circular curve. The circular curve can be used to defeat the straingt line.
- The single can be used to defeat double. The double can be used to defeat single.
- ...

TCMA has a lot of "contradiction" like this. It all depends on "strategy".

[Phil Redmond]

A 45 degree downward hook punch can deflect all your straight line punches.

- The straight line can be used to defeat the circular curve. The circular curve can be used to defeat the straingt line.
- The single can be used to defeat double. The double can be used to defeat single.
- ...

TCMA has a lot of "contradiction" like this. It all depends on "strategy".

Thumbs up on that one.

[Alan Orr]

Im sorry i stand corrected. I wrote the statement wrong. Sometimes I word things statements when Im really meaning it in a question form. but yes I by no means meant to asssume that you think that chain punch is an useless tool. I was simply asking a question because you keep saying that chain punch in general doesn't work on skilled fighters. Now chainpunch is not first or even the main technique we use. But we still use it. Its very effective if you know when to use it or slip it in as I say.

Infact we believe in the FLOW or linking attacks together in a continous motions from multiple vectors,directions, angles etc. We dont just chain down the middle with downward circle punches. We strike from everwhere while taking the centerline an controlling it with entry techniques like pak da, jum da, lop da, and jut da for starters.


Also let me reintrate. Your explanation of the principles behind chain punch is right on the money. I totally agree with you with people who only use chain punch and front kick as their wing chun techniques. Im glad you have videos that deal with using wing chun in a mma enviroment. But I feel that some of your adaptation may be watering down the wing chun or totally changing it from its purpose. I think your innovations may work well against Trained MMA person with some BJJ skill. But a season street fighter i dont know. Just because you practice Martial Arts, WC, or BJJ or MMA everyday and beat some top contenders doesn't mean some thug street fighter can't mop your top. Especially if thats all he been doing since he was eight years.


I try to adapt my WC to the street fighting scenario because thats all I encounter when i started learning WC. In fact thats the reason why i learned WC in the first place to deal with a street fighter. AS for MMA. If i was to train...i think Muay Thai Kicks, and elbows, Boxing Punches and strategies, and BJJ submissions and escapes and redirections are best suited for MMA. You can use some techniques from WC. But the whole format of WC is to hurt your opponent bad really fast so he cant continue to fight. In a MMA bout its about superior endurance, superior stamina and superior conditioning whens nine times out of ten. Just my opinion.


Both fighters are basically defensive fighters waiting patiently for an opening. In the streets Fist just start going. A person wants to fight you. He just rushes you or you rush him. No feints, No waiting, No bobbing and weaving or covering in the streets just hit hit hit. I think WC spring bridge arms and flow are good for that...Controlling the opponent so you can hit him at the same time is great effective tool.


I guess where we differ is I see Chain Punching as both a conditioning and training tool as well as actual technique to be utilize by the principle it teaches. I see the chain punch as tool that is best used in conjunction with your moving horse. To keep your opponent flailing. But I dont think it will work all the time. You need to be in posistion and have an opening to apply it.


I understand what you may' think' , but I can say 100% that nothing watered down in my wing chun. I teach everyday people who have defended well with our system on the street, fighters that use it in the ring/cage and lots of door and security personal who tell me they have never seen a system so deep and street effective. All opinions, but tested ones. So we are far from watered down. If it was watered down it would never work at all.

This whole idea that street fighters are tougher of better that skilled MMA fighters is a whole other debate. I train for both as most tough street fighters are now doing MMA! lol

You are again telling what I think about chain punching. I could have put up a clip on chain punching that would be hours long. It was just a few minutes to get an idea out. Please don't feel the need to explain anything to me. If you want to post clips to watch then great.

[Alan Orr]

There's an old saying that goes, the best way to beat a WC guy is with round punches.
Alan's clip explained why. ;)


Very true Phil

[kung fu fighter]

I don't create a bridge, my opponent creates one for me when trying to defend himself against my attacks. When I strike my opponent, he has Basicly 4 options.

1. He does nothing and get hit
2. His hands or feet comes in contact with mine as he tries to cover up, block, or reach for my limbs.
3. He evades my line of attack
4. he strikes back

[Alan Orr]

I don't create a bridge, my opponent creates one for me when trying to defend himself against my attacks. When I strike my opponent, he has Basicly 4 options.

1. He does nothing and get hit
2. His hands or feet comes in contact with mine as he tries to cover up, block, or reach for my limbs.
3. He evades my line of attack
4. he strikes back


He may counter strike you

He may take you down

He takes your balance

He controls you and puts you into a submission


Lots of things can happen.

[stonecrusher69]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZnIVhighInU

Filmed a load of clips this week.

This one is on chain punching.

best Alan

Good vidoe,good information

[k gledhill]

Alan have you trained VT knives yet ?

[Alan Orr]

Good vidoe,good information

Thanks, more to come.

[Alan Orr]

Alan have you trained VT knives yet ?

Of course, I been training wing chun for 25 years now. I'm not that slow. I have also learn 4 different sets as my teacher knows many sets and likes to show us the CSL set but also others so we know pros and cons of different styles and systems.

Why do you ask?

[k gledhill]

Of course, I been training wing chun for 25 years now. I'm not that slow. I have also learn 4 different sets as my teacher knows many sets and likes to show us the CSL set but also others so we know pros and cons of different styles and systems.

Why do you ask?

Do you spar with knives ?

[Alan Orr]

Do you spar with knives ?

Yes my teacher Robert Chu is very skilled with wing chun weapons as well other Chinese and Japanese and also lucky enough to be weapon trained by Guro Mark Wiley as well.


http://www.alanorr.co.uk/htdocs/eskrima/Eskrima%20system%20synopsis.html

Guro Mark is a master with blades. I also studied Aikido, Kenjutsu, Judo, Iaijutsu.

So yes I spar and train with wing chun blades plus many others. Again why do you ask?

[k gledhill]

I just dont see a tactical VT correlation in your clips...... you always allow yourself to be wailed on front and center to prove your demo hypothesis and then rely on a stand and trade approach with 'tan bong' and tomahawk wu sao without any motion or mention to recover a lost line, bad line, or countering line of incoming force, instead you choose to hold tight....?

[Alan Orr]

I just dont see a tactical VT correlation in your clips...... you always allow yourself to be wailed on front and center to prove your demo hypothesis and then rely on a stand and trade approach with 'tan bong' and tomahawk wu sao without any motion or mention to recover a lost line, bad line, or countering line of incoming force, instead you choose to hold tight....?

I think I show lots of tactical wing chun. When you spar with good fighters you can't just move to the side and change lines at will or chain punch while they stand still. Anyway this clip and it was just one clip was about why you can't stand and chain punch as often seen in lots of VT demos in fact. I think you can see at about 3.00 in that I take my opponents balance and turn him to control the side position countering coming force with my structure control. We don't always do anything, all depends on many things. Not sure why you are always looking for something missing. lol Its just one clip and for one clip I think it shows enough. It was aimed at one problem not the whole system in 4 mins. We have structure power so when we take the centre we can turn the opponent rather that need to step out, which we may also do if needed.

Blades have different ranges and different protocols as well. Some stuff relates to empty hands and some does not. Spar with no head guards and post the clip I like to see your tactical VT. Thats not a big ask is it? Then maybe we can see you point.

[k gledhill]

I think I show lots of tactical wing chun. When you spar with good fighters you can't just move to the side and change lines at will or chain punch while they stand still. Anyway this clip and it was just one clip was about why you can't stand and chain punch as often seen in lots of VT demos in fact. I think you can see at about 3.00 in that I take my opponents balance and turn him to control the side position countering coming force with my structure control. We don't always do anything, all depends on many things. Not sure why you are always looking for something missing. lol Its just one clip and for one clip I think it shows enough. It was aimed at one problem not the whole system in 4 mins. We have structure power so when we take the centre we can turn the opponent rather that need to step out, which we may also do if needed.

I have seen your clips and there are many so we can agree to disagree. good luck.

[Alan Orr]

I have seen your clips and there are many so we can agree to disagree. good luck.

Yes I think you say the same thing each time I post. We disagree, we already know that. that's no problem. If you are going to keep asking me the same thing then you really need to answer my same question. Post your sparring and give us examples.

[kung fu fighter]

He may counter strike you

He may take you down

He takes your balance

He controls you and puts you into a submission


Lots of things can happen.

These all fall into the 4 categories that i mentioned above

For him to take you down, he has make some kind of contact before taking you down, thus bridging

for him to take your balance, he has to bridge or make some kind of contact

for him to control you and put you in some kind of submission, he has to make some kind of contact to set it up such as taking you down and getting into position. but having done BJJ and Wrestling i understand ground fighting is a whole new ball game. But i am specificly referring to stand up fighting which wing chun is designed for.

[Alan Orr]

These all fall into the 4 categories that i mentioned above

For him to take you down, he has make some kind of contact before taking you down, thus bridging

for him to take your balance, he has to bridge or make some kind of contact

for him to control you and put you in some kind of submission, he has to make some kind of contact to set it up such as taking you down and getting into position. but having done BJJ and Wrestling i understand ground fighting is a whole new ball game. But i am specificly referring to stand up fighting which wing chun is designed for.

For sure, but that's a lot of different things that can happen from the bridge contact. The counter punch is a big fight changer.

[k gledhill]

Yes I think you say the same thing each time I post. We disagree, we already know that. that's no problem. If you are going to keep asking me the same thing then you really need to answer my same question. Post your sparring and give us examples.

That's because I see the same ambiguous "Why you cant see my WC..." clips being made to 'explain ' why only YOU can see it along with your tomahawk wu-sao stuck in your forehead...:D

We see more than you give us credit for ....;)

[Alan Orr]

That's because I see the same ambiguous "Why you cant see my WC..." clips being made to 'explain ' why only YOU can see it along with your tomahawk wu-sao stuck in your forehead...:D

We see more than you give us credit for ....;)

Well you don't seem to see much as you miss all the important points and try to focus on areas outside of the clips and then try to have a dig about the areas you don't understand. Then you never answer my questions and never post any clips. No big deal to me. The feedback on my clips has been excellent. I don't know why you are so worried about what I do.

[k gledhill]

Well you don't seem to see much as you miss all the important points and try to focus on areas outside of the clips and then try to have a dig about the areas you don't understand. Then you never answer my questions and never post any clips. No big deal to me. The feedback on my clips has been excellent. I don't know why you are so worried about what I do.

Well as long as you're happy Alan....may the tomahawk wu sao on your forehead work for you :D rotflmao :D I swear I thought you were trying to stifle a laugh when you said "this is wu-sao" , but you did well to keep a straight face ;).

I dont post clips, maybe I will try.... I make many clips for instruction , basic pak sao, jut ideas, but its for my students not the general public.

[Alan Orr]

Well as long as you're happy Alan....may the tomahawk wu sao on your forehead work for you :D rotflmao :D I swear I thought you were trying to stifle a laugh when you said "this is wu-sao" , but you did well to keep a straight face ;).

I dont post clips, maybe I will try....

Its a shame to have a limited mind and are only be able to try to poke fun. Your view is not important to me at all. I understand my wing chun worries your views, so put you dummy back in and you will be just fine.

[k gledhill]

Its a shame to have a limited mind and are only be able to try to poke fun. Your view is not important to me at all. I understand my wing chun worries your views, so put you dummy back in and you will be just fine.

Look if I thought a 'tomahawk' wu-sao in my forehead would work, I would be right next to you...My views ? I didn't reinvent Ving Tsun and make clips to explain why it looks so much like boxing now, but, er ...isn't, its really cleverly disguised CSL.
True to fashion if guys dont agree with you they have a challenged IQ.

A tomahawk wu at my forehead to you, it could be the start of a new cool school salute ;)

[Alan Orr]

Look if I thought a 'tomahawk' wu-sao in my forehead would work, I would be right next to you...My views ? I didn't reinvent Ving Tsun and make clips to explain why it looks so much like boxing now, but, er ...isn't, its really cleverly disguised CSL.
True to fashion if guys dont agree with you they have a challenged IQ.

A tomahawk wu at my forehead to you, it could be the start of a new cool school salute ;)

Wing Chun is a chinese boxing art. Martial arts when trained in a real way still grow. We are not stuck with just training drills. True too fashion? I have had guys agree or disagree, no problem. I dislike it when fools try to make fun as they have nothing else they can say. CSL has been tested and is used by fighters in the modern world. Where not talking about back in the day when no one can remember or when stories can grow into epic battles lol.

I understand whenever I post a clip you start with you BS to take away the fact that you don't understand it so don't want others to like it. I post the clips so people can just chat and talk about wing chun development. Oh sorry you are not into that. fine, then why all the noise?

[k gledhill]

Wing Chun is a chinese boxing art. Martial arts when trained in a real way still grow. We are not stuck with just training drills. True too fashion? I have had guys agree or disagree, no problem. I dislike it when fools try to make fun as they have nothing else they can say. CSL has been tested and is used by fighters in the modern world. Where not talking about back in the day when no one can remember or when stories can grow into epic battles lol.

I understand whenever I post a clip you start with you BS to take away the fact that you don't understand it so don't want others to like it. I post the clips so people can just chat and talk about wing chun development. Oh sorry you are not into that. fine, then why all the noise?

I agree VT fighters are in constant conditioning.

Why the noise ? because I saw a clip of a guy with a wu sao on his forehead blocking a guy who was standing in front of him punching with 2 free hands :D:D

[Alan Orr]

I agree VT fighters are in constant conditioning.

Why the noise ? because I saw a clip of a guy with a wu sao on his forehead blocking a guy who was standing in front of him punching with 2 free hands :D:D

Its funny over a 1,000 people have watched the clip already and I have had endless emails and posts on facebook from people saying they really liked it and it has helped the face of wing chun in the martial arts. And then we have you. LOL

[Grumblegeezer]

I agree VT fighters are in constant conditioning.

Why the noise ? because I saw a clip of a guy with a wu sao on his forehead...

Dang, I'm so retarded. I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. What "wu-sau on his forehead..."? All I saw was Alan demonstrating some stuff that made a lot of sense to me. Sorry.

[Alan Orr]

Dang, I'm so retarded. I don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. What "wu-sau on his forehead..."? All I saw was Alan demonstrating some stuff that made a lot of sense to me. Sorry.


He is upset as what I have talked about in terms of chain punching is different to his view. So he is trying to make light of it, so we forget that if what I have shown is to be true then his ideas may not be quite right.

When I posted this clip which explains why a few things we do differently - he then said its not the same as how he sees wing chun - lol yes thats what the clip is about - a different vie point. So I don't know why he is posting anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhownwwVHdA&feature=related

[k gledhill]

He is upset as what I have talked about in terms of chain punching is different to his view. So he is trying to make light of it, so we forget that if what I have shown is to be true then his ideas may not be quite right.

When I posted this clip which explains why a few things we do differently - he then said its not the same as how he sees wing chun - lol yes thats what the clip is about - a different vie point. So I don't know why he is posting anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhownwwVHdA&feature=related

Not upset at all Alan, just having a laugh :D

[GlennR]

Not upset at all Alan, just having a laugh :D

Seriously Kev, whats to laugh at if it works?

[Vajramusti]

I don't do LG's or AO's kind of wing chun. But form is for development prior to application where relevant variations arise. If the wu is trained properly - with springy joint work- it can do things
at various levels and angles.

joy chaudhuri

[Alan Orr]

I don't do LG's or AO's kind of wing chun. But form is for development prior to application where relevant variations arise. If the wu is trained properly - with springy joint work- it can do things
at various levels and angles.

joy chaudhuri

Agreed, Wing Chun is not a dead art in the right hands.

[Wayfaring]

Look if I thought a 'tomahawk' wu-sao in my forehead would work, I would be right next to you...My views ? I didn't reinvent Ving Tsun and make clips to explain why it looks so much like boxing now, but, er ...isn't, its really cleverly disguised CSL.
True to fashion if guys dont agree with you they have a challenged IQ.

A tomahawk wu at my forehead to you, it could be the start of a new cool school salute ;)

You make a lot of and poke a lot of fun at the wu sau adaptation which is really nothing more than a mma adaptation of the inner hand to cover strikes. Boxers and MT fighters cover similarly with the hand touching the head. Why do they do this? Because it presents more structure against a hard hitting punch than hanging a hand out in space with a collapsed elbow, which is only going to work against slap fighting attacks.

What is the purpose of wu sau? Of the inner hand? To pick up what passes the outer hand mun sau, to "hand off" from the outer hand to the inner hand, to present a secondary front for defending attacks from entering your space, to be the "inner gate". Does the wu hand traditionally contact the head? No, but against a powerful strike the additional structure may be necessary to deflect the power of the attack. A hard strike can collapse a hand in to the point where you are getting hit by your own hands if you don't defend it properly. How it plays out is one punch in a combo is hard enough to collapse in on you, then the 2nd and 3rd combos already have you on the run and do more damage. This is what it is like sparring against a pro boxer for example. Unless your defense is very tight you're going to be on the run.

What this shows me about you is that you never spar with strikes that have enough power to knock someone out. That proves pretty true by all the YouTube stuff I see which more resembles middle school slap fights than full power striking matches.

If your whole system is built around ideals like that then it is going to fold under pressure when you are really getting hit hard.

If people can't find the ingenuity to look beyond traditionalism and can only see to the point of rejecting a concept if it "looks like boxing" and can't broaden their viewpoints to apply WC in other scenarios then WC is doomed to die out as an art IMO.

[Alan Orr]

You make a lot of and poke a lot of fun at the wu sau adaptation which is really nothing more than a mma adaptation of the inner hand to cover strikes. Boxers and MT fighters cover similarly with the hand touching the head. Why do they do this? Because it presents more structure against a hard hitting punch than hanging a hand out in space with a collapsed elbow, which is only going to work against slap fighting attacks.

What is the purpose of wu sau? Of the inner hand? To pick up what passes the outer hand mun sau, to "hand off" from the outer hand to the inner hand, to present a secondary front for defending attacks from entering your space, to be the "inner gate". Does the wu hand traditionally contact the head? No, but against a powerful strike the additional structure may be necessary to deflect the power of the attack. A hard strike can collapse a hand in to the point where you are getting hit by your own hands if you don't defend it properly. How it plays out is one punch in a combo is hard enough to collapse in on you, then the 2nd and 3rd combos already have you on the run and do more damage. This is what it is like sparring against a pro boxer for example. Unless your defense is very tight you're going to be on the run.

What this shows me about you is that you never spar with strikes that have enough power to knock someone out. That proves pretty true by all the YouTube stuff I see which more resembles middle school slap fights than full power striking matches.

If your whole system is built around ideals like that then it is going to fold under pressure when you are really getting hit hard.

If people can't find the ingenuity to look beyond traditionalism and can only see to the point of rejecting a concept if it "looks like boxing" and can't broaden their viewpoints to apply WC in other scenarios then WC is doomed to die out as an art IMO.

Very nice post. Clear well written and to the point.

[k gledhill]

What you two show me is that you dont understand wu sao. :D You can agree with each other , rant [wayfaring] and show clips of guys kickboxing [alan], it doesnt change the fact that WU sao has a specific role AND position.
I have no care whether you give 2 sh*ts :D

[Alan Orr]

What you two show me is that you dont understand wu sao. :D You can agree with each other , rant [wayfaring] and show clips of guys kickboxing [alan], it doesnt change the fact that WU sao has a specific role AND position.
I have no care whether you give 2 sh*ts :D


Why keep taking time to post then? Cool pic, which one is you? lol

[trubblman]

What you two show me is that you dont understand wu sao. :D You can agree with each other , rant [wayfaring] and show clips of guys kickboxing [alan], it doesnt change the fact that WU sao has a specific role AND position.
I have no care whether you give 2 sh*ts :D

Moe is trying to show Larry how to defeat Curly's guard with the 2 finger biu ji strike to the eyes.

[Alan Orr]

Moe is trying to show Larry how to defeat Curly's guard with the 2 finger biu ji strike to the eyes.

If its good enough for the stooges then its good enough for me!

[WC1277]

Wu sau does have variables in angles but not so much in height. To retain the same structure at the height of your forehead, a short-extended biu sau would be far more structurally sound. Despite our brief agreement we had, Alan, about making the opponent "lean on your wall" conversation, I really do think you are taking much more creative freedom with your supposed "Wing Chun" than is really acceptable IMO. Why not just call it something else similar to Jeet Kune Do origins? Sure, you have WC influence, but influence at best, is what I'd call your b@stardized version of it. The naysayers will leave you alone and you'll truly have a MMA style you can call your own. Everybody wins, but most importantly, you won't look like a fool trying to make a fortune cookie, which inherently are universal, apply to ring fighting concepts.

[Wayfaring]

What you two show me is that you dont understand wu sao.

Well then why don't you educate us on what the hell you would do with a wu sau in a full contact ring type match, rather than all your left-handed insults, stupid descriptions, and images of 3 stooges.

Unless you can do that then your criticism is void of any content and thus rightly should be discounted. Ridicule and "you don't understand" statements don't cut it.

[Wayfaring]

Wu sau does have variables in angles but not so much in height. To retain the same structure at the height of your forehead, a short-extended biu sau would be far more structurally sound.

Wrong. Jong sau (outer hand) - wu sau - with structure (inner hand) elbows on the nipple line protects your upper gate.

If something gets past your wu hand covering with a hand connected to your head is simply the most practical option to protect yourself without giving up space.

[WC1277]

Wrong. Jong sau (outer hand) - wu sau - with structure (inner hand) elbows on the nipple line protects your upper gate.

You don't know what you're talking about....

[Chadderz]

Despite our brief agreement we had, Alan, about making the opponent "lean on your wall" conversation, I really do think you are taking much more creative freedom with your supposed "Wing Chun" than is really acceptable IMO. Why not just call it something else similar to Jeet Kune Do origins? Sure, you have WC influence, but influence at best, is what I'd call your b@stardized version of it. The naysayers will leave you alone and you'll truly have a MMA style you can call your own. Everybody wins, but most importantly, you won't look like a fool trying to make a fortune cookie, which inherently are universal, apply to ring fighting concepts.

Somebody sounds a bit jealous. I'd say Alan grasps Wing Chun, and combat in general a lot better than form huggers.

[GlennR]

Wu sau does have variables in angles but not so much in height. To retain the same structure at the height of your forehead, a short-extended biu sau would be far more structurally sound. Despite our brief agreement we had, Alan, about making the opponent "lean on your wall" conversation, I really do think you are taking much more creative freedom with your supposed "Wing Chun" than is really acceptable IMO. Why not just call it something else similar to Jeet Kune Do origins? Sure, you have WC influence, but influence at best, is what I'd call your b@stardized version of it. The naysayers will leave you alone and you'll truly have a MMA style you can call your own. Everybody wins, but most importantly, you won't look like a fool trying to make a fortune cookie, which inherently are universal, apply to ring fighting concepts.

Ahhh, great to see your reality based opinion again.

[GlennR]

You make a lot of and poke a lot of fun at the wu sau adaptation which is really nothing more than a mma adaptation of the inner hand to cover strikes. Boxers and MT fighters cover similarly with the hand touching the head. Why do they do this? Because it presents more structure against a hard hitting punch than hanging a hand out in space with a collapsed elbow, which is only going to work against slap fighting attacks.

What is the purpose of wu sau? Of the inner hand? To pick up what passes the outer hand mun sau, to "hand off" from the outer hand to the inner hand, to present a secondary front for defending attacks from entering your space, to be the "inner gate". Does the wu hand traditionally contact the head? No, but against a powerful strike the additional structure may be necessary to deflect the power of the attack. A hard strike can collapse a hand in to the point where you are getting hit by your own hands if you don't defend it properly. How it plays out is one punch in a combo is hard enough to collapse in on you, then the 2nd and 3rd combos already have you on the run and do more damage. This is what it is like sparring against a pro boxer for example. Unless your defense is very tight you're going to be on the run.

What this shows me about you is that you never spar with strikes that have enough power to knock someone out. That proves pretty true by all the YouTube stuff I see which more resembles middle school slap fights than full power striking matches.

If your whole system is built around ideals like that then it is going to fold under pressure when you are really getting hit hard.

If people can't find the ingenuity to look beyond traditionalism and can only see to the point of rejecting a concept if it "looks like boxing" and can't broaden their viewpoints to apply WC in other scenarios then WC is doomed to die out as an art IMO.

Thats a great post WF
Youre bang on in regards to people not trialling themselves to big shots. Weve just had a guy with 7 years WC experience, 6ft 3 and id say 90kg who quickly stated that he was unable to deal with the power we could throw at him (MT).

Everytime he tried to how us a response to something he crumpled.
Was he great at WC? No. Was he bad? No, he was ok.
But he's like so may guys out there that just havent got out there and tested what they have learnt.
GlennR

[Alan Orr]

Wu sau does have variables in angles but not so much in height. To retain the same structure at the height of your forehead, a short-extended biu sau would be far more structurally sound. Despite our brief agreement we had, Alan, about making the opponent "lean on your wall" conversation, I really do think you are taking much more creative freedom with your supposed "Wing Chun" than is really acceptable IMO. Why not just call it something else similar to Jeet Kune Do origins? Sure, you have WC influence, but influence at best, is what I'd call your b@stardized version of it. The naysayers will leave you alone and you'll truly have a MMA style you can call your own. Everybody wins, but most importantly, you won't look like a fool trying to make a fortune cookie, which inherently are universal, apply to ring fighting concepts.

Its a point of view. No one can tell me what is correct in CSL wing chun other that my teacher. I don't think I look like a fool and would not worry about that anyway, thanks. My wing chun is very pure in terms of principles on the martial arts. We are not limited to not growing and developing

As stated my others, you are showing a limited view. What I am doing is training and used my fighters. Wing Chun is a fighting system. Put some gloves on and spar then tell me what happens.

[k gledhill]

Wrong. Jong sau (outer hand) - wu sau - with structure (inner hand) elbows on the nipple line protects your upper gate.

If something gets past your wu hand covering with a hand connected to your head is simply the most practical option to protect yourself without giving up space.

Clueless.....;)

[Alan Orr]

Clueless.....;)

Are you? I am sure you can drill you way to enlightenment.

[Wayfaring]

Clueless.....;)

Enjoy your fantasy world, where you can fight and have PB's love child.

Muppet. :D

[Wayfaring]

You don't know what you're talking about....

Coming from the guy whose solution is "a half extended biu sau". That's much better than bong or tan, right?

These threads are certainly seperating out the fighters from the fantasy boys. ;)

[k gledhill]

Are you? I am sure you can drill you way to enlightenment.

... moving a hand backwards to my forehead to deal with a hand coming forwards to hit my head.....Nope, I dont do that. But I will try your way with an open mind and respond with my research results. ;)

[Wayfaring]

I live and breath it daily :D wank*r ;)

Dreaming of having PB's love child? Yes. We know. :D

[k gledhill]

Coming from the guy whose solution is "a half extended biu sau". That's much better than bong or tan, right?

These threads are certainly seperating out the fighters from the fantasy boys. ;)

And guys with no clue about VT.

[Vajramusti]

Coming from the guy whose solution is "a half extended biu sau". That's much better than bong or tan, right?

These threads are certainly seperating out the fighters from the fantasy boys. ;)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WC 2377 is correct from a wing chun perspective. While a wu is adjustable.. an adjusted
biu would be better at a forehead level.

Fighting? Wing chun is not the only way to fight. But wing chun does have it's own structure and dynamics,

There are good, bad, and middling wc folks but wc is not MT or MMA.


joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WC 2377 is correct from a wing chun perspective. While a wu is adjustable.. an adjusted
biu would be better at a forehead level.


Not at inner gate range - no structure. Check your elbow structure with a half extended biu - no way that will hold up to any kind of force coming in on a punch. The elbow has no hip alignment supporting it. It's force on no structure force, and a speed race to see if you can get inside the punch to extend the biu. If you can't it's going to collapse in on you and you hit yourself in the head, then get hit by the second punch in the combo. Lucky strike strategy IMO.

Your wc is not all wc.

From a pure wc perspective, once the wu hand travels above the high reference point (right under your nose), pulling to high bong sau is what has structure, keeping the wrist of the bong on the high reference point. That is especially the answer if you are behind in the reaction and catching up. You can spread with tan but have to be ahead of it both in reaction time and angling.

[k gledhill]

Not at inner gate range - no structure. Check your elbow structure with a half extended biu - no way that will hold up to any kind of force coming in on a punch. The elbow has no hip alignment supporting it. It's force on no structure force, and a speed race to see if you can get inside the punch to extend the biu. If you can't it's going to collapse in on you and you hit yourself in the head, then get hit by the second punch in the combo. Lucky strike strategy IMO.

Your wc is not all wc.

From a pure wc perspective, once the wu hand travels above the high reference point (right under your nose), pulling to high bong sau is what has structure, keeping the wrist of the bong on the high reference point. That is especially the answer if you are behind in the reaction and catching up. You can spread with tan but have to be ahead of it both in reaction time and angling.

Clueless...when did telepathy become part of your wc ?

[Frost]

Yes I think you say the same thing each time I post. We disagree, we already know that. that's no problem. If you are going to keep asking me the same thing then you really need to answer my same question. Post your sparring and give us examples.

lol priceless cheers for the laugh but we all know kevin doesnt care enough to post clips of himself in action ...but he does seem to care enough to tell everyone else what they are doing is wrong :)

[Vajramusti]

Not at inner gate range - no structure. Check your elbow structure with a half extended biu - no way that will hold up to any kind of force coming in on a punch. The elbow has no hip alignment supporting it. It's force on no structure force, and a speed race to see if you can get inside the punch to extend the biu. If you can't it's going to collapse in on you and you hit yourself in the head, then get hit by the second punch in the combo. Lucky strike strategy IMO.

Your wc is not all wc.

From a pure wc perspective, once the wu hand travels above the high reference point (right under your nose), pulling to high bong sau is what has structure, keeping the wrist of the bong on the high reference point. That is especially the answer if you are behind in the reaction and catching up. You can spread with tan but have to be ahead of it both in reaction time and angling.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We just have different perspectives and opinions. I do practice and apply from a well known Ip man lineage perspective. And my biu sao works just fine- not just in theory.An empirical question.
The elbow in biu is properly aligned structurally. Work on it a lot to insure that it among other dynamics is properly aligned.

I am interested in other forms of martial activity but I do wing chun. I don't always agree with Kevin but he does wing chun-though he now is often on his own PB sales pitch...his business.

Alan's last shot of his student or partner in red trunks is a fine example of ring fighting/kick boxing with some wing chun alignment.

Again, wing chun is not the only possible system but on a wing chun forum I try to just discussing wing chun..

It's interesting to me that except for the general forum- the wing chun forum gets the most hits of any other forum.


No sarcasm intended.
joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We just have different perspectives and opinions. I do practice and apply from a well known Ip man lineage perspective. And my biu sao works just fine- not just in theory.An empirical question.
The elbow in biu is properly aligned structurally. Work on it a lot to insure that it among other dynamics is properly aligned.

I am interested in other forms of martial activity but I do wing chun. I don't always agree with Kevin but he does wing chun-though he now is often on his own PB sales pitch...his business.

Alan's last shot of his student or partner in red trunks is a fine example of ring fighting/kick boxing with some wing chun alignment.

Again, wing chun is not the only possible system but on a wing chun forum I try to just discussing wing chun..

It's interesting to me that except for the general forum- the wing chun forum gets the most hits of any other forum.


No sarcasm intended.
joy chaudhuri

Business ?? Um how did you like my last DVD series Joy ? Which clip of me doing something did you like :D
exactly ;)

[k gledhill]

lol priceless cheers for the laugh but we all know kevin doesnt care enough to post clips of himself in action ...but he does seem to care enough to tell everyone else what they are doing is wrong :)

We all know Frost hasn't got a clue about VT, so its pointless showing him anyway :D

[k gledhill]

I am the fat guy doing my secret KJG Wing Chun in this fight ,can you see my VT skills ?
:D
CLIP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6fdYJU8MAqw)

[Vajramusti]

Business ?? Um how did you like my last DVD series Joy ? Which clip of me doing something did you like :D
exactly ;)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good grief:Business in the context of my post= your prerogative-no hidden meaning.

joy

[WC1277]

Not at inner gate range - no structure. Check your elbow structure with a half extended biu - no way that will hold up to any kind of force coming in on a punch. The elbow has no hip alignment supporting it. It's force on no structure force, and a speed race to see if you can get inside the punch to extend the biu. If you can't it's going to collapse in on you and you hit yourself in the head, then get hit by the second punch in the combo. Lucky strike strategy IMO.

Your wc is not all wc.

From a pure wc perspective, once the wu hand travels above the high reference point (right under your nose), pulling to high bong sau is what has structure, keeping the wrist of the bong on the high reference point. That is especially the answer if you are behind in the reaction and catching up. You can spread with tan but have to be ahead of it both in reaction time and angling.

I know this isn't a beloved sparring video of yours but it shows many good examples of how "our" structure is or can be applied including the short extended biu sau. It's long, many good parts, a few ok parts, but none the less, if you watch carefully, you'll see that our hands almost always stay center and our bodies turn them....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2chOzs-2Xg&nomobile=1

[JPinAZ]

Wrong. Jong sau (outer hand) - wu sau - with structure (inner hand) elbows on the nipple line protects your upper gate.

If something gets past your wu hand covering with a hand connected to your head is simply the most practical option to protect yourself without giving up space.


Not at inner gate range - no structure. Check your elbow structure with a half extended biu - no way that will hold up to any kind of force coming in on a punch. The elbow has no hip alignment supporting it. It's force on no structure force, and a speed race to see if you can get inside the punch to extend the biu. If you can't it's going to collapse in on you and you hit yourself in the head, then get hit by the second punch in the combo. Lucky strike strategy IMO.

Your wc is not all wc.

From a pure wc perspective, once the wu hand travels above the high reference point (right under your nose), pulling to high bong sau is what has structure, keeping the wrist of the bong on the high reference point. That is especially the answer if you are behind in the reaction and catching up. You can spread with tan but have to be ahead of it both in reaction time and angling.

Dave

I'd agree with you on your above assessments of wu sau from a WC perspective. When you say it is 'inner gate', I would agree. If talking inner/outter gate, our wu sau comes online because someone has passed our jong sau, which is something covered by our 2-line concepts.
But I would also further add that, for me, being 'inner gate' is pointing more to it being tool used for defending entry 'into the box'. When in this close range and facing where su sau is applicable, we are being forced to use wrist energy, as our 'kiu sau range' and ability to use 6 gate leverage has been passed. And,as you point out, in the case of wu sau to defend the box, our elbow will need the necessary alignment to support the structure (along with the fwd wrist energy)

Now, looking at Alan's demonstration of 'wu sau' with his hand covering head action, I would say no, that is not wu sau from our above descriptions. His box has already been entered, his elbow is raised (so no hip connection) and no fwd wrist energy is being employed because in reality he's pulling he had back and it's collapsing to his forehead.
Yes, this is an acceptable basic defensive covering tool he is using because his control of space and timing has been compramised to the point it's his best/last option, but it's not wu sau.

Let me note before Alan jumps all over me - I am not saying that what he is doing won't work - it can in this case. And yes, I realize this is a demo. An no, I am I saying Alan and his guys can't fight or don't train hard - their record speaks for itself.
But IMO, it's still not wu sau, at least not from any definition I've ever heard, or any application I've ever seen. If he argues it is, then I would further guess his definition of what WC is probably far from how most of the people here define it. And that's fine too if it works for him, but I can also understand why a lot of people have a difficult time 'seeing' a lot of WC in what he does, especially if he calls this hand on head covering action wu sau...

[Chadderz]

I know this isn't a beloved sparring video of yours but it shows many good examples of how "our" structure is or can be applied including the short extended biu sau. It's long, many good parts, a few ok parts, but none the less, if you watch carefully, you'll see that our hands almost always stay center and our bodies turn them....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2chOzs-2Xg&nomobile=1

But the idea is to break free from drills like chi sao, and start getting it to work in sparring and real life :p

[WC1277]

But the idea is to break free from drills like chi sao, and start getting it to work in sparring and real life :p

Still should be good structure though. I've already said many times I don't think real fighting looks like chi sao. But there is only so much creative freedom one can do with angles, structure, and WC timing and still be within that realm....

[Chadderz]

Still should be good structure though. I've already said many times I don't think real fighting looks like chi sao. But there is only so much creative freedom one can do with angles, structure, and WC timing and still be within that realm....

I'm not saying that it's not good structure, I'm saying try and keep that structure in sparring, or a live scenario. I guarantee it doesn't look like chi sao. xD

[WingChunABQ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2chOzs-2Xg&nomobile=1

This is one of my favorite videos of Chi Sao on Youtube. Super clean, well exectued, really good structure, fine execution.

And, you know, mullets.

[WingChunABQ]

But the idea is to break free from drills like chi sao, and start getting it to work in sparring and real life :p

Not unless you need to use those drills for development.

[Chadderz]

Not unless you need to use those drills for development.

Yeah, but a lot of Wing Chun guys get stuck in the trap of training ONLY in drills.

[Phil Redmond]

Yeah, but a lot of Wing Chun guys get stuck in the trap of training ONLY in drills.
That's mostly what I've seen in my 40+ years in Wing Chun and I include ALL lineages in that statement. It's only a few that will leave the nest and fly.

[WingChunABQ]

That's mostly what I've seen in my 40+ years in Wing Chun and I include ALL lineages in that statement. It's only a few that will leave the nest and fly.

Me too (though I'm only pushing 16 years in the art ;) ). Although, the ones that do fly and make the art their own are amazing.

On the other hand, I've seen a lot of people try to skip over drills/ concepts/ conditioning and end up with shoddy Wing Chun. I suppose the trick is knowing when to step out of the nest.

[Frost]

We all know Frost hasn't got a clue about VT, so its pointless showing him anyway :D

According to you know one here does have a clue, apart from you and the other pb n*triders, strange how you care so much to post every day about how clueless we all are, mock others when they actually have the b&lls to post clips of themselves when all you can post is clips of your mancrush doing chi sao and pole work……and yet you cant find the time to post one clip of yourself doing anything…and i mean anything

Seriously why do you bother

[k gledhill]

According to you know one here does have a clue, apart from you and the other pb n*triders, strange how you care so much to post every day about how clueless we all are, mock others when they actually have the b&lls to post clips of themselves when all you can post is clips of your mancrush doing chi sao and pole work……and yet you cant find the time to post one clip of yourself doing anything…and i mean anything

Seriously why do you bother

Hit a nerve have we, Mr troll ? its a VT forum numb n*utz , I DO VT, DO YOU ? :D

[Frost]

Hit a nerve have we, Mr troll ? its a VT forum numb n*utz , I DO VT, DO YOU ? :D

Actually its a wing chun forum, and since you seem to think your VT is so different from everyone elses why dont you ask them to start a VT one :)

hit a nerve, Lol if you had i might have made a few cracks about your obsession with PBs poll...i just happen to think your behaviour is both funny as h*ll and sad as f&ck, trying to convice people you have the secret wing chun without having the b*lls to post any clips :rolleyes:

Troll behaviour 101
tell everyone they are doing the art wrongly
never post any clips of yourself in action
Always talk down about other lineages and say yours in the correct one and only your lineage has the real art

who does that sound like here? :)

[k gledhill]

Actually its a wing chun forum, and since you seem to think your VT is so different from everyone elses why dont you ask them to start a VT one :)

hit a nerve, Lol if you had i might have made a few cracks about your obsession with PBs poll...i just happen to think your behaviour is both funny as h*ll and sad as f&ck, trying to convice people you have the secret wing chun without having the b*lls to post any clips :rolleyes:

Troll behaviour 101
tell everyone they are doing the art wrongly
never post any clips of yourself in action
Always talk down about other lineages and say yours in the correct one and only your lineage has the real art

who does that sound like here? :)

Ah yes, Frost standard response to getting owned on a forum..RANT..:D

He doesnt even train in Wing Chun Ving Tsun Wing Tzun Wong Chong..

OWNED !:D

[Frost]

How can I be owned when I freely admit what arts I have done and haven’t done? Do you engage your brain before typing?:confused:
When have I ever said I do wing chun, I have said before I did some wing chun back in the day and pop in here for a laugh because its probably the funniest forum here (unintentionally)
And you are a classic example of why the forum is so funny, why the likes of Alan post their clips here is beyond me

So how about posting your clips for the wing chun guys here to Critique, or do we have to wait for hell to freeze over for that to happen :)

[Wayfaring]

I know this isn't a beloved sparring video of yours but it shows many good examples of how "our" structure is or can be applied including the short extended biu sau. It's long, many good parts, a few ok parts, but none the less, if you watch carefully, you'll see that our hands almost always stay center and our bodies turn them....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2chOzs-2Xg&nomobile=1

OK. So I think I see where you guys are going with this structure wise. Many times the inner hand gets collapsed in to the chest. In "our" WC structure that's undesirable. You guys seem to try to change the angle to free it up. I can accept that as a workable alternative. I can see how a collapsed elbow half extended biu could by changing the angle could provide the extension needed to give it structure.

Believe it or not we do a lot of that type of thing in BJJ - if something is pinned change the angle to free it.

I still think it can be problematic like around :46 to :48 of that clip - the aikido wrist lock attempt there is not very realistic and I don't think would hold up to harder pressure.

[Wayfaring]

Now, looking at Alan's demonstration of 'wu sau' with his hand covering head action, I would say no, that is not wu sau from our above descriptions. His box has already been entered, his elbow is raised (so no hip connection) and no fwd wrist energy is being employed because in reality he's pulling he had back and it's collapsing to his forehead.
Yes, this is an acceptable basic defensive covering tool he is using because his control of space and timing has been compramised to the point it's his best/last option, but it's not wu sau.

Sure - agree. The structure in that cover actually does come from connecting the hand to the head and absorbing the strike on the forearm. Without the elbow connection to the hip, unless another support structure is employed like that the crashing power of the punch will get through and cause problems.

I'm not a purist enough to argue the meaning of "wu" beyond the concept of "inner hand".

[Wayfaring]

I am the fat guy doing my secret KJG Wing Chun in this fight ,can you see my VT skills ?
:D
CLIP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6fdYJU8MAqw)

I think k is jealous because Curly has better WC than he does. That's why he keeps posting that picture... :D

[Wayfaring]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We just have different perspectives and opinions. I do practice and apply from a well known Ip man lineage perspective. And my biu sao works just fine- not just in theory.An empirical question.
The elbow in biu is properly aligned structurally. Work on it a lot to insure that it among other dynamics is properly aligned.

Sure. My background is not Ip Man (or very little Ip Man - Moy Yat). HFY has no lineage through Ip Man. I commented on the structure on the response to WC1227. You have to change the alignment to connect the inner hand hip / elbow. And IMO there is a timeframe in there where you have no structure.



I am interested in other forms of martial activity but I do wing chun. I don't always agree with Kevin but he does wing chun-though he now is often on his own PB sales pitch...his business.

Sure k does wing chun. IMO the Gary Lam / Ernie Barrios guys are a better application of WSL background than the stuff I've seen from PB. And k is a little bit of a chode. :D



Alan's last shot of his student or partner in red trunks is a fine example of ring fighting/kick boxing with some wing chun alignment.

Again, wing chun is not the only possible system but on a wing chun forum I try to just discussing wing chun..

It's interesting to me that except for the general forum- the wing chun forum gets the most hits of any other forum.


No sarcasm intended.
joy chaudhuri

I think what people find funny (I do) is all the dogma around what "is" and what "is not" wing chun.

Ip Man was known to have several sources of instructors. I doubt he himself put that much effort into defining the boundaries.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1160341]OK. So I think I see where you guys are going with this structure wise. Many times the inner hand gets collapsed in to the chest. In "our" WC structure that's undesirable. You guys seem to try to change the angle to free it up. I can accept that as a workable alternative. I can see how a collapsed elbow half extended biu could by changing the angle could provide the extension needed to give it structure.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You guys? But your"our" WC structure? Don't know what it is.
Going back to the relevant part of the thread- a very high forehead level wu would not be
the best choice..but there are other things besides that Alan seems to be interested in.
Changing angles can do many things when needed. No try... do.
But then again, I doubt that there can be a good dialog on the meaning of structure.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Ip Man was known to have several sources of instructors. I doubt he himself put that much effort into defining the boundaries.

Really?

I personally think he knew exactly what he was doing and exactly how much to push out into the public domain at the time. That, for me, is pretty definite as far as boundaries and understanding of Wing Chun are concerned.

It was all written and documented by his own family and his close students, so what you want to ask yourself is 'if Ip Man developed his own curriculum, where is it now?'

[Wayfaring]

Really?

I personally think he knew exactly what he was doing and exactly how much to push out into the public domain at the time. That, for me, is pretty definite as far as boundaries and understanding of Wing Chun are concerned.

It was all written and documented by his own family and his close students, so what you want to ask yourself is 'if Ip Man developed his own curriculum, where is it now?'

He was from what I've gathered very much inclined to teach different things to different people.

That to me doesn't show a lot of evidence of an exact unified boundaried system IMO.

Of course some worship the ground he walked on and call that genius. I don't. I think he inspired a lot of cult-like followers.

[Wayfaring]

You guys?
Fong.


But your"our" WC structure? Don't know what it is.

HFY.



Going back to the relevant part of the thread- a very high forehead level wu would not be
the best choice..but there are other things besides that Alan seems to be interested in.

It's a boxers/MT fighters cover. He's extending the concept to call it "wu". Yeah - blasphemy, right. ;)



Changing angles can do many things when needed. No try... do.
But then again, I doubt that there can be a good dialog on the meaning of structure.

joy chaudhuri

All right then, Yoda.

On structure, it seems to work for civil engineers. It only seems to lose meaning in WC "dogma". I don't think it's that difficult - hip supporting elbow is the basic tenet.

[k gledhill]

He was from what I've gathered very much inclined to teach different things to different people.

That to me doesn't show a lot of evidence of an exact unified boundaried system IMO.

Of course some worship the ground he walked on and call that genius. I don't. I think he inspired a lot of cult-like followers.

One idea, lots of confusion.

[Vajramusti]

One idea, lots of confusion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ip Man did not need to teach more than a few till he had to survive in Hong Kong.
Students came and went. Many/most were short timers.
Further IM often made individual specific corrections depending on the person he was dealing with.
There is often a difference between the intention of the teacher, possible distortions in conveying intent, broken telephones and the distortions in student perceptions of what a teacher said or did.
A few students saw the diamond behind it all.
With the spreading of wing chun and people jumping on the bandwagon- lots of gibberish has emerged. The real art is often covered with grime.
WC is not alone...good top quality taiji also has to be searched for by serious students.

joy chaudhuri

[Mutant]

Nice article and video, Alan. I think that you are adding to the forum here, while this other fellow seems to insist on detracting from the forum. Its the crackpot ****ing contests back and forth that that make me roll my eyes and not get into these forums regularly, as it just gets too stupid to read... Anyway, great stuff.

[Wayfaring]

Ip Man did not need to teach more than a few till he had to survive in Hong Kong.
Students came and went. Many/most were short timers.
Further IM often made individual specific corrections depending on the person he was dealing with.
There is often a difference between the intention of the teacher, possible distortions in conveying intent, broken telephones and the distortions in student perceptions of what a teacher said or did.
A few students saw the diamond behind it all.
With the spreading of wing chun and people jumping on the bandwagon- lots of gibberish has emerged. The real art is often covered with grime.
WC is not alone...good top quality taiji also has to be searched for by serious students.

joy chaudhuri

good post...

[Phil Redmond]

We all know Frost hasn't got a clue about VT, so its pointless showing him anyway :D
You could show us that do WC. I'm willing to learn anything good if you're willing to share. I put myself out there for criticism. ;)

[Ozzy Dave]

... moving a hand backwards to my forehead to deal with a hand coming forwards to hit my head.....Nope, I dont do that. But I will try your way with an open mind and respond with my research results. ;)

Alan make a good point, WC kiu sao need to be trained in both a forwards and backwards (i.e. returning towards the body) direction.

I personally try everything against boxing (which I also train in) as its my benchmark for fist striking and there are sometimes when you need to accommodate an incoming force by flowing with it, be it either timing related or just to withstand the force of the blow.

Focusing on forwards movement only is fine when training for an ambush style attack where your effectiveness if focused on ending the confrontation as quickly as possible in the shortest amount of exchanges, however when a scenario goes on for longer e.g. an MMA bout, without the ability to flow with the oncoming force you would come unstuck very quickly IMO.

Nice vid Alan thanks,

Dave

[Alan Orr]

Alan make a good point, WC kiu sao need to be trained in both a forwards and backwards (i.e. returning towards the body) direction.

I personally try everything against boxing (which I also train in) as its my benchmark for fist striking and there are sometimes when you need to accommodate an incoming force by flowing with it, be it either timing related or just to withstand the force of the blow.

Focusing on forwards movement only is fine when training for an ambush style attack where your effectiveness if focused on ending the confrontation as quickly as possible in the shortest amount of exchanges, however when a scenario goes on for longer e.g. an MMA bout, without the ability to flow with the oncoming force you would come unstuck very quickly IMO.

Nice vid Alan thanks,

Dave

Yes I agree. What I have shown in that clip was a very small area. Its not all we do at all. As you train with contact you will understand that more that others.

[k gledhill]

Alan make a good point, WC kiu sao need to be trained in both a forwards and backwards (i.e. returning towards the body) direction.

I personally try everything against boxing (which I also train in) as its my benchmark for fist striking and there are sometimes when you need to accommodate an incoming force by flowing with it, be it either timing related or just to withstand the force of the blow.

Focusing on forwards movement only is fine when training for an ambush style attack where your effectiveness if focused on ending the confrontation as quickly as possible in the shortest amount of exchanges, however when a scenario goes on for longer e.g. an MMA bout, without the ability to flow with the oncoming force you would come unstuck very quickly IMO.

Nice vid Alan thanks,

Dave

How does it work on your forehead ? :D

[Alan Orr]

Nice article and video, Alan. I think that you are adding to the forum here, while this other fellow seems to insist on detracting from the forum. Its the crackpot ****ing contests back and forth that that make me roll my eyes and not get into these forums regularly, as it just gets too stupid to read... Anyway, great stuff.

Many thanks. I agree - its so hard to post clips without guys telling why its not wing chun or why is not what they know. Then they try to find something to rant about and so on. I'm not really interested in that. What I do works and is a system and I am just showing a different view via real experience. I would hope others would do the same rather than make empty comments.

[Alan Orr]

How does it work on your forehead ? :D

Back again. You are so f''king sad bro. You must worry so much about your limited views that you feel you need to continued to post and waste people time.

[k gledhill]

Back again. You are so f''king sad bro. You must worry so much about your limited views that you feel you need to continued to post and waste people time.

Alan, I disagree with a wu sao being placed on ones forehead as an angle to intercept a punch to the head immobile, get used to it. Others have agreed with me too...
Like a goalie at a penalty shot jumping back into the net as the ball is kicked....We cut off the angles of the shooter is all I am saying, a goalie goes at an attack attempting to score to shut down potential angles , intercepting the shooter.
There is a reason in forms and fighting we don't bring the hands back past a certain point.

Intercepting fist, starts with wu sao.

I'm not sad mate, I just don't agree with you...and this is your standard "I dont understand post"

[Frost]

You could show us that do WC. I'm willing to learn anything good if you're willing to share. I put myself out there for criticism. ;)

dont worry phil you dont do the real VT so you wouldnt get it either :)

And the fact you do put out clips makes you a much better man than some here :)

[k gledhill]

dont worry phil you dont do the real VT so you wouldnt get it either :)

And the fact you do put out clips makes you a much better man than some here :)

Trolling again....stirring the tea cup ;)

[Frost]

Trolling again....stirring the tea cup ;)

Pot and kettle :)

[k gledhill]

Pot and kettle :)

Storm in a tea cup....

[Frost]

Storm in a tea cup....

full of hot air :)

we could go all day, lets just leave it at both alan and phil think its important enough to post clips to show what they are talking about...you dont see it as that important (but still like to shout from the gallery):)

[Alan Orr]

Alan, I disagree with a wu sao being placed on ones forehead as an angle to intercept a punch to the head immobile, get used to it. Others have agreed with me too...
Like a goalie at a penalty shot jumping back into the net as the ball is kicked....We cut off the angles of the shooter is all I am saying, a goalie goes at an attack attempting to score to shut down potential angles , intercepting the shooter.
There is a reason in forms and fighting we don't bring the hands back past a certain point.

Intercepting fist, starts with wu sao.

I'm not sad mate, I just don't agree with you...and this is your standard "I dont understand post"

Opinion - no problem, disagree - no problem. But you think on and on about something which was not fully explained and not even the point of the clip. You are like a crying baby.

When you spar with real fighters you learn about real fighting. You always need a plan b. What I showed was plan b if you miss what you would like to do. Simple. No big deal. You just don't like hearing anything other that what you do.

[k gledhill]

full of hot air :)

we could go all day, lets just leave it at both alan and phil think its important enough to post clips to show what they are talking about...you dont see it as that important (but still like to shout from the gallery):)

Troll.....:rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Opinion - no problem, disagree - no problem. But you think on and on about something which was not fully explained and not even the point of the clip. You are like a crying baby.

When you spar with real fighters you learn about real fighting. You always need a plan b. What I showed was plan b if you miss what you would like to do. Simple. No big deal. You just don't like hearing anything other that what you do.

Fine we can agree to disagree then ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=Frost;1160655, lets just leave it at both alan and phil think its important enough to post clips to show what they are talking about...you dont see it as that important (but still like to shout from the gallery):)[/QUOTE]

This is a very valid point IMO.
There are WC instructors that believe that SHOWING what they are doing and why is crucial to bridging that "WC bridge" that exists not only between the WC lineages but other MA as well.
To guys like Phil and Alan I say THANK YOU!
One can find demo or seminar footage a plenty from various WC instructors but what Phil and Alan ( I speak of them because this thread is Alan's and Phil has commented on this thread) post is not ONLY the tehory of their WC ( which is ALL that demos and seminar footage can show) but the PRACTICAL application of their WC.
Something that is VERY LACKING from others who are just as vocal and just as prolific posters of videos.

[k gledhill]

This is a very valid point IMO.
There are WC instructors that believe that SHOWING what they are doing and why is crucial to bridging that "WC bridge" that exists not only between the WC lineages but other MA as well.
To guys like Phil and Alan I say THANK YOU!
One can find demo or seminar footage a plenty from various WC instructors but what Phil and Alan ( I speak of them because this thread is Alan's and Phil has commented on this thread) post is not ONLY the tehory of their WC ( which is ALL that demos and seminar footage can show) but the PRACTICAL application of their WC.
Something that is VERY LACKING from others who are just as vocal and just as prolific posters of videos.


Some guys just dont do clips.... ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some guys just dont do clips.... ;)

I am not talking about those that don't, I am talking about those that DO.

[mjw]

Good example of application vs developmental

[LoneTiger108]

I am not talking about those that don't, I am talking about those that DO.

Do you Sanjuro??

It's been a long day and I forget if I have seen you on the Youtube machine! ;)

[Vajramusti]

Do you Sanjuro??

It's been a long day and I forget if I have seen you on the Youtube machine! ;)
------------------------------

He has!!

joy

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do you Sanjuro??

It's been a long day and I forget if I have seen you on the Youtube machine! ;)

Oh I don't compete anymore and due to health issues I have had to curtail my hard sparring very, very much.
But what I "proclaim" is nothing so different that can be seen on any youtube video of kyokushin or MT or any other full contact system and the videos I do post are about developing kungs like the Iron Palm or the PE fist or about strength and conditioning.
That said if I was ever to post a video about techniques or fighting strategy I would most 100% follow the adage:
See it taught, see it fought.
EX:
If I was to post a video eschewing the benefist of chi sao then I would make sure that video showed the attributes developed from chi sao in a hard contact setting ( the the opponent NOT being complacient) and NOT chi sao drills.

[LoneTiger108]

But what I "proclaim" is nothing so different that can be seen on any youtube video of kyokushin or MT or any other full contact system and the videos I do post are about developing kungs like the Iron Palm or the PE fist or about strength and conditioning.

I thought I had seen you PE fist clip. Different than what I do if I remember right, but good stuff all the same.


If I was to post a video eschewing the benefist of chi sao then I would make sure that video showed the attributes developed from chi sao in a hard contact setting ( the the opponent NOT being complacient) and NOT chi sao drills.

I don't think any 'Chisau' clip I film would be worth putting up because I tend to approach the whole interactive training differently than most. Saying that, I understand the frustration felt by Alan when he gets criticized for sharing his thoughts here even though he handles it far better than I would or have lol!

I mean, I have had disagreements with him about certain things too, but I do know a Martial Artist when I meet one and nobody can take that fact away from Alan and his approach to training, even if his Wing Chun idea is different to some. For me it makes sense what he is doing. I can see his progression and why he sees it this way or that and if anyone here met some of his students I think you would understand too!!

Good people trying to do good promtions for Wing Chun, and I never always thought like this lol! Even he knows I don't like competitions!!! ;)

[LoneTiger108]

Some guys just dont do clips.... ;)

And some simply put up numerous clips of others to get their point across dude! I mean, when will the time ever come for you to share a simple 2 min clip with us Kev?? You know you want to :D ;)

[k gledhill]

And some simply put up numerous clips of others to get their point across dude! I mean, when will the time ever come for you to share a simple 2 min clip with us Kev?? You know you want to :D ;)

When hell freezes over, pigs fly, and Frost learns VT....never :D okay maybe .

[Frost]

When hell freezes over, pigs fly, and Frost learns VT....never :D okay maybe .

or when you grow a set :)

[k gledhill]

or when you grow a set :)

Nope never....:D

[Frost]

Nope never....:D

at least you are honest :)

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree very well. I just think your kinda of saying the traditional utilization of chain punch as technique is not usable against a skilled MMA fighter who has never experienced that technique...

but again im not speculating only giving my opinion!



I understand what you may' think' , but I can say 100% that nothing watered down in my wing chun. I teach everyday people who have defended well with our system on the street, fighters that use it in the ring/cage and lots of door and security personal who tell me they have never seen a system so deep and street effective. All opinions, but tested ones. So we are far from watered down. If it was watered down it would never work at all.

This whole idea that street fighters are tougher of better that skilled MMA fighters is a whole other debate. I train for both as most tough street fighters are now doing MMA! lol

You are again telling what I think about chain punching. I could have put up a clip on chain punching that would be hours long. It was just a few minutes to get an idea out. Please don't feel the need to explain anything to me. If you want to post clips to watch then great.

[Chadderz]

I agree very well. I just think your kinda of saying the traditional utilization of chain punch as technique is not usable against a skilled MMA fighter who has never experienced that technique...

but again im not speculating only giving my opinion!

Traditional train punching isn't going to work against ANYBODY. Except other guys who think it works ironically enough....

[Alan Orr]

I thought I had seen you PE fist clip. Different than what I do if I remember right, but good stuff all the same.



I don't think any 'Chisau' clip I film would be worth putting up because I tend to approach the whole interactive training differently than most. Saying that, I understand the frustration felt by Alan when he gets criticized for sharing his thoughts here even though he handles it far better than I would or have lol!

I mean, I have had disagreements with him about certain things too, but I do know a Martial Artist when I meet one and nobody can take that fact away from Alan and his approach to training, even if his Wing Chun idea is different to some. For me it makes sense what he is doing. I can see his progression and why he sees it this way or that and if anyone here met some of his students I think you would understand too!!

Good people trying to do good promtions for Wing Chun, and I never always thought like this lol! Even he knows I don't like competitions!!! ;)

Thanks bro

[Alan Orr]

This is a very valid point IMO.
There are WC instructors that believe that SHOWING what they are doing and why is crucial to bridging that "WC bridge" that exists not only between the WC lineages but other MA as well.
To guys like Phil and Alan I say THANK YOU!
One can find demo or seminar footage a plenty from various WC instructors but what Phil and Alan ( I speak of them because this thread is Alan's and Phil has commented on this thread) post is not ONLY the tehory of their WC ( which is ALL that demos and seminar footage can show) but the PRACTICAL application of their WC.
Something that is VERY LACKING from others who are just as vocal and just as prolific posters of videos.

Many thanks.

Funny really Phil and I have different systems and different ideas but we have common ground in the way we think about martial arts development and training. We also have always been able to chat and talk about stuff with no problem and have become friends. Is that not what a forum should produce? wing chun forum - all wing chun guys - building wing chun? That is martial respect.


Maybe we should only listen to ideas from guys that take the 5 mins to post some clips to share rather that the guys who waste our time telling us we are wrong - even though we have shown that it works and why.

[WingChunABQ]

Many thanks.

Funny really Phil and I have different systems and different ideas but we have common ground in the way we think about martial arts development and training. We also have always been able to chat and talk about stuff with no problem and have become friends. Is that not what a forum should produce? wing chun forum - all wing chun guys - building wing chun? That is martial respect.

I agree.

Some of the most productive exchanges I've ever seen between martial artists were when my teachers would bring in teachers of other styles to share their methods with us - radically different approaches to acheive the same ends. The respect you're talking about was alive.

I currently have the luck to train at a gym where lots of other stylists train too, and all the teachers there actively share their knowledge with each other. Good stuff.

The piddle matches only seem to happen on the internet, where there's no danger of provoking a physical conflict. Funny how that works.

[JPinAZ]

Maybe we should only listen to ideas from guys that take the 5 mins to post some clips to share rather that the guys who waste our time telling us we are wrong - even though we have shown that it works and why.

haha, you're so right. How can anyone know what they are doing or have a valid opinion that may differ from yours :eek: if they haven't posted up a clip of themselves on youtube?
(BTW, just because someone posts a clip doesn't mean what they are doing is WC simply because they titled it as such. Youtube is full of garbage WC clips. Not saying yours are/aren't but a clip doesn't validate one's knowledge of WC)

IMO, a lot of what you do goes against many basic WC principles from my understanding. If what you do works for you, great, but I don't need to flood youtube with a bunch of my training clips to offer my view (which I usually back up with examples) or have my opinion count.
You'll have to excuse me if I didn't follow your 'new rules' by not doing it in a video clip - I thought this was a forum for written words and views..

[JPinAZ]

I agree.

Some of the most productive exchanges I've ever seen between martial artists were when my teachers would bring in teachers of other styles to share their methods with us - radically different approaches to acheive the same ends. The respect you're talking about was alive.

I currently have the luck to train at a gym where lots of other stylists train too, and all the teachers there actively share their knowledge with each other. Good stuff.

The piddle matches only seem to happen on the internet, where there's no danger of provoking a physical conflict. Funny how that works.

Dave, I hear what you're saying. The only issue I have is Alan's approach of 'Hey, I post videos, so unless you either agree with me or post your own, you don't have a clue what you're talking about or what you're looking at'.

Where's the 'respect' in that?

[WingChunABQ]

Dave, I hear what you're saying. The only issue I have is Alan's approach of 'Hey, I post videos, so unless you either agree with me or post your own, you don't have a clue what you're talking about or what you're looking at'.

Where's the 'respect' in that?

Maybe. But he has a point insofar as anybody can type anything on the internet without backing it up. I do respect his view of establishing some sort of 'proof' of what we say.

His Wing Chun may not be my Wing Chun, but at least he's using video evidence to prove that he's actually practicing something, and not just some obese corn-chip repository lurking on an internet forum in his underwear.

(and my name's not Dave ;) )

[Alan Orr]

haha, you're so right. How can anyone know what they are doing or have a valid opinion that may differ from yours :eek: if they haven't posted up a clip of themselves on youtube?
(BTW, just because someone posts a clip doesn't mean what they are doing is WC simply because they titled it as such. Youtube is full of garbage WC clips. Not saying yours are/aren't but a clip doesn't validate one's knowledge of WC)

IMO, a lot of what you do goes against many basic WC principles from my understanding. If what you do works for you, great, but I don't need to flood youtube with a bunch of my training clips to offer my view (which I usually back up with examples) or have my opinion count.
You'll have to excuse me if I didn't follow your 'new rules' by not doing it in a video clip - I thought this was a forum for written words and views..

Thats cool. Yes there is a lot of bad wing chun on youtube for sure.

I don't really think everyone has to post a clip to have a view. I think my point is if you feel so strongly about a clip you and have to on and on about it - then you should post a clip to show why. Otherwise is a bit pointless.

In terms of respect. I think respect is earned and I like to think I talk to people in the same way they talk to me.

[Alan Orr]

I agree.

Some of the most productive exchanges I've ever seen between martial artists were when my teachers would bring in teachers of other styles to share their methods with us - radically different approaches to acheive the same ends. The respect you're talking about was alive.

I currently have the luck to train at a gym where lots of other stylists train too, and all the teachers there actively share their knowledge with each other. Good stuff.

The piddle matches only seem to happen on the internet, where there's no danger of provoking a physical conflict. Funny how that works.

Nice post.

[Yoshiyahu]

Traditional train punching isn't going to work against ANYBODY. Except other guys who think it works ironically enough....

I betcha I could use traditional chain punching against you joined with moving horse an it would work just fine!

[Phil Redmond]

Many thanks.

Funny really Phil and I have different systems and different ideas but we have common ground in the way we think about martial arts development and training. We also have always been able to chat and talk about stuff with no problem and have become friends. Is that not what a forum should produce? wing chun forum - all wing chun guys - building wing chun? That is martial respect.


Maybe we should only listen to ideas from guys that take the 5 mins to post some clips to share rather that the guys who waste our time telling us we are wrong - even though we have shown that it works and why.
Exactly, I don't believe in that secret crap or superiority crap. You and I are different Alan but we pressure test what we do. We can learn from each other. I have never ridiculed another WC person even though I've seen some things that indicate the person never tried his "Chun" against a resisting opponent. I believe the secret is hard training.

[Phil Redmond]

Alan, I talked to your Sifu tonight and told him that he should be proud of you. I hope to see him in L.A. in a few weeks. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is quite interesting to me that, even though Alan and Phil have different views and come from different lineages and even disagree on certain things, that their approach to WC - pressure testing it- has brought them to common ground.
As it has with other people who do the same thing-pressure test- their WC.
People who do that-pressure test their WC- always find common ground AND seem to work well together regardless of where they "came from".
There is a lesson there...

[WingChunABQ]

Yup. It's hard to talk BS with a mouthful of blood and loose teeth.

[k gledhill]

Yup. It's hard to talk BS with a mouthful of blood and loose teeth.

:D never a truer word has been said.... "its your nose, not mine" , was a phrase my old sifu would use.

[WingChunABQ]

:D never a truer word has been said.... "its your nose, not mine" , was a phrase my old sifu would use.

My sifu once said, "If somebody says there are no absolutes, hit them. Hard."

[Wayfaring]

Exactly, I don't believe in that secret crap or superiority crap. You and I are different Alan but we pressure test what we do. We can learn from each other. I have never ridiculed another WC person even though I've seen some things that indicate the person never tried his "Chun" against a resisting opponent. I believe the secret is hard training.

Yes, everybody has a plan until they get hit.

It is honestly encouraging to see good viewpoints like this around. It makes me feel better about the likelihood of WC being around in 50 yrs...

[JPinAZ]

Thats cool. Yes there is a lot of bad wing chun on youtube for sure.

I don't really think everyone has to post a clip to have a view. I think my point is if you feel so strongly about a clip you and have to on and on about it - then you should post a clip to show why. Otherwise is a bit pointless.

In terms of respect. I think respect is earned and I like to think I talk to people in the same way they talk to me.

Cool, and I hear what you're saying, but I also dissagree with you on some of it. This isn't a video hosting forum. If you expect people to use videos for replies, that's what youtube is for.
But you started a thread on a text-based forum, so I don't think it's pointless to 'discuss' the clip here without a video of our own. BTW, discussing is different than going 'on and on' as you put it.

If you didn't want discussion, then why the he11 post your clips up here in the first place? If not for self glorification (not saying it's the case), then you should be more than willing and comfortable discussing with both those that agree with what you do and those that don't - comes with putting yourself out there. If not, then I think you creating this thread here is rather pointless. ;)

On another note, I'm with anyone saying that you have to pressure test on a regular basis your art if you are going to have any chance at developing any real skill - that goes for any MA. I would also agree a lot of TMA's schools (WC or otherwise) have lost focus of this idea. And, while I give credit to those putting up clips others to see (and crituqe), I don't think hard training or pressure testing your art it anything 'secret', new or inventive. Maybe something that is sometimes ignored by those afraid to have there secrure world challenged, but not some mystery only a few are now discovering :).

[Alan Orr]

Cool, and I hear what you're saying, but I also dissagree with you on some of it. This isn't a video hosting forum. If you expect people to use videos for replies, that's what youtube is for.
But you started a thread on a text-based forum, so I don't think it's pointless to 'discuss' the clip here without a video of our own. BTW, discussing is different than going 'on and on' as you put it.

If you didn't want discussion, then why the he11 post your clips up here in the first place? If not for self glorification (not saying it's the case), then you should be more than willing and comfortable discussing with both those that agree with what you do and those that don't - comes with putting yourself out there. If not, then I think you creating this thread here is rather pointless. ;)

On another note, I'm with anyone saying that you have to pressure test on a regular basis your art if you are going to have any chance at developing any real skill - that goes for any MA. I would also agree a lot of TMA's schools (WC or otherwise) have lost focus of this idea. And, while I give credit to those putting up clips others to see (and crituqe), I don't think hard training or pressure testing your art it anything 'secret', new or inventive. Maybe something that is sometimes ignored by those afraid to have there secrure world challenged, but not some mystery only a few are now discovering :).


As far as I can see this forum has lots of video posting going on. That's one of the best ways to show your point of view. And once again I am not saying that's the only way. Also my first clip was not posted my me. But as people where asking questions and talking - I then posted the rest. I am happy not to post them on this forum if that's what people want. I just thought it was good for people to see other views of wing chun and also wing chun that is being used my fighters.

I never made any comments that pressure testing was new or a mystery. The point is maybe some don't do it or do it very well.

The pointless idea on comments we directed to people who don't train in this way. If you don't spar with good fighters or different styles then its hard to listen to views on sparring and fighting from these guys. Thats all.

[JPinAZ]

As far as I can see this forum has lots of video posting going on. That's one of the best ways to show your point of view. And once again I am not saying that's the only way. Also my first clip was not posted my me. But as people where asking questions and talking - I then posted the rest. I am happy not to post them on this forum if that's what people want. I just thought it was good for people to see other views of wing chun and also wing chun that is being used my fighters.

I never made any comments that pressure testing was new or a mystery. The point is maybe some don't do it or do it very well.

The pointless idea on comments we directed to people who don't train in this way. If you don't spar with good fighters or different styles then its hard to listen to views on sparring and fighting from these guys. Thats all.

Hey, I think it's cool you are willing to post them up and share what you're doing - even if I don't agree with everything you do ;)
And I also agree, clips are a great way to show one's POV, 'specially when the written word can only do go so far without a visible example. I was just commenting that I didn't think it had to be required to have your own to be able to comment on them. At least we understand each other now.
IMO, the best way to have these types of discussions is in-person since you can also feel the energy involved. But since we're on a forum and everyone lives all over the world, we gotta make do wtih what we got.

The pressure testing/mystery comment wasn't really toward you, just commenting on another line of discussion the thread was going on.

[Alan Orr]

Hey, I think it's cool you are willing to post them up and share what you're doing - even if I don't agree with everything you do ;)
And I also agree, clips are a great way to show one's POV, 'specially when the written word can only do go so far without a visible example. I was just commenting that I didn't think it had to be required to have your own to be able to comment on them. At least we understand each other now.
IMO, the best way to have these types of discussions is in-person since you can also feel the energy involved. But since we're on a forum and everyone lives all over the world, we gotta make do wtih what we got.

The pressure testing/mystery comment wasn't really toward you, just commenting on another line of discussion the thread was going on.

That's all cool. I agree. I think the forum can be of use when it's about people sharing and talking. Not agreeing on stuff is totally cool with me. That's kind of the point in some way - to see other stuff and understand what they do even if its not what you would do. Some people are a bit to worried by stuff they can't understand or ideas that are different to their own. These guys are a pain as they stop the whole thread to debate their own insecure views. That's the part of the forum that bores the hell out of me. Having to answer the same questions on every thread. I am sure others are tried of that as well. Anyway thank You. Its nice to not 100% agree and not be personal about it... like adults!