Rare Book Review: Strength Training Without Weights by Don McDaniel

[mickey]

Greetings,

This book was published in 1980 to introduce athletes to training methods used by gymnasts. It recommended doing resistant exercises some with apparatus and others with body weight. The author recommended that the resistance be such that the trainee cannot do more than five repetitions of each exercise. He shows that exercises, the progressions and then, the exercise routine consisting of about 60 to 70 exercises. The apparatus used suggests that either the author was way ahead of the curve or that the science of gymnastic training was way ahead of the curve:

1- Gymnastic Rings

2- Coaster Wheels (now known as Akro Wheels)

3- Surgical Tubing (Did I just hear Frost scream?)

Additional include parallel bars (I guess paralletes would do for some of these exercises) and hanging ropes.

Quite a few of the exercises would require a spotter and a well padded gym.

This book assumes a more than decent level of strength to begin with. It is ambitious and challenging work; yet, the author appears to be simply letting you know what you have to do to get where his guys are.

I wish the author would revisit his work and detail the progressions more.


mickey

[Frost]

no screams from me, i have a set of heavy duty bands and use them several times a week, i just think there is a time and a place for them and they cant replicant what you can do with barbells :)

[Zenshiite]

mickey,

If you're into that then I recommend Building The Gymnastic Body: The Science of Gymnastics Strength Training by Coach Christopher Somner. He details progressions for some of the more basic holds.

[mickey]

Hi Zenshiite,

I am aware of that book. The book I reviewed popped into my hands while everyone was waiting for Somner's book to come out. I am very apathetic about buying the book because there were many people who were waiting years, myself included, for its arrival only to have it in truncated form. The book was to be comprehensive. According to reviews, it is not; and, there is "more" to come. I don't have the time for that kind of sh!t.

Still, thank you for taking the time to make the recommendation to me.


mickey

[wenshu]

There isn't really anything in the book that isn't already in the original articles Sommer did for Dragon Door or that can be found on the current GB forums.

The only thing in it that someone might need is if they are trying to follow the Workout of the Day programming on the GB site since it's not always easy to find descriptions of TOPS Pulls, etc on the site.

I tried the main programming for a while and found that I wasn't making any progress at all and now just do focused work on a few fundamental exercises with specific short term goals. Progress has been much faster, this group training fad is getting out of control.

Really for the first year or two L-sit, front lever, back lever and controlled muscle up are going to keep you plenty busy and trying to get into all that crazy three planes of movement dynamic exercise stuff is just going to waste your time.

[JamesC]

no screams from me, i have a set of heavy duty bands and use them several times a week, i just think there is a time and a place for them and they cant replicant what you can do with barbells :)

Been thinking of adding some light pulling work with bands for some shoulder problems i've been having lately.

Any quality bands you can recommend?

[SavvySavage]

Try the book, "Overcoming Gravity: A systemstic approach to gymnasics abd bodyweight exercises" by Steven Low. It's supposed to be very good unlike Sommer's book. That's kinda what ****ed me off about the Dragoj Door stuff. They'd charge an arm and a leg an you would only get the top half of the prostitute. I need the whole package!

[Frost]

Been thinking of adding some light pulling work with bands for some shoulder problems i've been having lately.

Any quality bands you can recommend?

thats the reason i added them lol use them for rows, facepulls, rotorcuf work as well as core work
jumpstretch and ironmind all do good bands, i actually use lifeline heavy duty TNT cables, easy to change, go from light to very heavy and last for years

[IronFist]

There is some good body weight stuff. I think especially like if you are traveling or something and don't have access to a gym.

But none of it really replaces weight lifting unless you are specifically training to be able to do body weight stuff.

KFM member Ford Prefect (I think it was him) did a bunch of gymnastics stuff in place of weight training for a while and kept a diary about it and then reported his results at the end. The results were as you would expect: he got better at doing the bodyweight stuff but lost strength from the lack of weight training.

edit - here is his thread:
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37001

[wenshu]

Yeah you need weights for legs. So why do gymnasts have such big legs? Oh wait, they lift weights :D

Nope.

Straddle planche is nothing to balk at but 3 weeks? Really? Primarily static holds and no rings? That's hardly conclusive of anything.

Honestly his "experiment" should be described as what happens when you replace lifting with static holds not the broader "gymnastic movements".

Aside from that, if you don't do something for a period of time you won't be as good at it as you were before you stopped?

You.
Don't.
Say.

[SavvySavage]

GSP stated in a video that he only lifts weights once or twice a week and look how good he is. The point is to measure your success by how your skills are progessibg(if you're a martial artist) and not how much you can lift.


Our own donjutsu posted this on his blog.

http://www.uncagedfighter.com/2012/01/1-thing-you-must-do-if-you-want-to-be.html?m=1

He basically argues to get better at fighting and not to get better at exercising. It's a good article.

I believe body weight exercises are equal to weights in terms of your gains. Here's an example of a bad example of why body weight exercise abd weight lifting shpuld not be compared: A guy has only been doing 1 legged squats his whole life and you ask him to deadlift. He can't deadlift as much as a deadlifter so you deem body weight exercises to be inferior. How many one legged squats can dead lifters do? Apples and oranges.

I try to look at everything as functional or not. Instead of asking how much weight you can pull down on the universal why not ask how many pull ups he can do and how fast? How fast can he climb a rope just using his arms? This is more interesting to me.

[mickey]

Hi SavvySavage,

Thank you for the book recommendation. It looks like it would dovetail nicely with McDaniel's book.



mickey

[IronFist]

GSP stated in a video that he only lifts weights once or twice a week and look how good he is. The point is to measure your success by how your skills are progessibg(if you're a martial artist) and not how much you can lift.

What's wrong with only lifting one or two days a week?

Do people think you're supposed to lift every day or something?

[IronFist]

I believe body weight exercises are equal to weights in terms of your gains.

False. If this were true, elite level Olympic lifters and powerlifters (and strongmen) would train with body weight exercises. They don't. Why? Because bw exercises won't increase maximal strength output past a certain point.

Sure, when you're untrained they will. Take a guy who has never exercised before and see how much he can bench. Let's say 100. Now put him on a pushup program for a few weeks and then test his bench again. It will likely be higher.

Muscles get stronger (and your CNS gets more efficient) by training against progressively increasing loads. Bodyweight exercises will never achieve this. I mean you can do pushups with a weight vest and one legged squats and stuff, but there's no comparison when it comes to actually lifting weights.

Put another way, you will not get stronger (as defined by maximal muscle tension/output) if you never increase the weight against which the muscle contracts. Doing more reps of a bodyweight exercise won't do this (nor will doing more reps of a given weight). Yes, there is a slight carryover in the low reps (meaning if you increase your bench from 225x1 to 225x5, your 1RM has gone up a bit), however.

A reasonably trained athlete who increases his pushups from 30 to 100 won't see an increase on the amount of weight he can bench press.


Here's an example of a bad example of why body weight exercise abd weight lifting shpuld not be compared: A guy has only been doing 1 legged squats his whole life and you ask him to deadlift. He can't deadlift as much as a deadlifter so you deem body weight exercises to be inferior. How many one legged squats can dead lifters do? Apples and oranges.

Agreed.


I try to look at everything as functional or not. Instead of asking how much weight you can pull down on the universal why not ask how many pull ups he can do and how fast? How fast can he climb a rope just using his arms? This is more interesting to me.

Right, it's about training for your goals. Agreed 100%.

To increase your endurance for fighting you should spar more (not long distance run).

To increase "functional strength" you should do the things you need to be functional at.

To increase maximal strength you should lift heavy weights.

Due to various physiological factors however you can't excel at everything at once (marathoners are not champion sprinters), so pick what is currently most important to you and just work in a bit of the others for variation. Training for one thing for too long can mess up your strength curve, too. You can get really strong (high 1RM) but have a disproportionally low 10RM if you only do heavy low rep stuff. And vice versa, you can probably train to the point where you can bench 135 for 50 reps but not even get 1 with 225.

So like in that article you posted, if you want to be a better fighter, train fighting. Increasing your deadlift from 315 to 405 is awesome but is it really going to make you a better fighter? Not really (unless you end up needing to pick up a guy heavier than you could lift before). Although it could be argued that if you're fighting a guy who is the same weight and skill and endurance as you, but he can bench/DL/squat 800lbs and you can only bench/DL/squat 315, he has the advantage. But you get the point and I agree with the general idea of that article.

Anyway, this has all been covered a dozen times.

[IronFist]

Nope.

Straddle planche is nothing to balk at but 3 weeks? Really? Primarily static holds and no rings? That's hardly conclusive of anything.

Honestly his "experiment" should be described as what happens when you replace lifting with static holds not the broader "gymnastic movements".

Aside from that, if you don't do something for a period of time you won't be as good at it as you were before you stopped?

You.
Don't.
Say.

According to his hypothesis, he should not have lost (much) maximal strength (as measured by weight lifting) if gymnastics exercises alone were sufficient for strength training. You can allow for some loss due to decrease in CNS efficiency from not actually doing the movements for a while.

I PMed Ford a bit ago but I don't think he comes on this forum much anymore. Maybe he'll join this thread and share his thoughts. I don't want to put words in his mouth.

[SavvySavage]

False. If this were true, elite level Olympic lifters and powerlifters (and strongmen) would train with body weight exercises. They don't. Why? Because bw exercises won't increase maximal strength output past a certain point.

Sure, when you're untrained they will. Take a guy who has never exercised before and see how much he can bench. Let's say 100. Now put him on a pushup program for a few weeks and then test his bench again. It will likely be higher.

Muscles get stronger (and your CNS gets more efficient) by training against progressively increasing loads. Bodyweight exercises will never achieve this. I mean you can do pushups with a weight vest and one legged squats and stuff, but there's no comparison when it comes to actually lifting weights.

Put another way, you will not get stronger (as defined by maximal muscle tension/output) if you never increase the weight against which the muscle contracts. Doing more reps of a bodyweight exercise won't do this (nor will doing more reps of a given weight). Yes, there is a slight carryover in the low reps (meaning if you increase your bench from 225x1 to 225x5, your 1RM has gone up a bit), however.

A reasonably trained athlete who increases his pushups from 30 to 100 won't see an increase on the amount of weight he can bench press.



Agreed.



Right, it's about training for your goals. Agreed 100%.

To increase your endurance for fighting you should spar more (not long distance run).

To increase "functional strength" you should do the things you need to be functional at.

To increase maximal strength you should lift heavy weights.

Due to various physiological factors however you can't excel at everything at once (marathoners are not champion sprinters), so pick what is currently most important to you and just work in a bit of the others for variation. Training for one thing for too long can mess up your strength curve, too. You can get really strong (high 1RM) but have a disproportionally low 10RM if you only do heavy low rep stuff. And vice versa, you can probably train to the point where you can bench 135 for 50 reps but not even get 1 with 225.

So like in that article you posted, if you want to be a better fighter, train fighting. Increasing your deadlift from 315 to 405 is awesome but is it really going to make you a better fighter? Not really (unless you end up needing to pick up a guy heavier than you could lift before). Although it could be argued that if you're fighting a guy who is the same weight and skill and endurance as you, but he can bench/DL/squat 800lbs and you can only bench/DL/squat 315, he has the advantage. But you get the point and I agree with the general idea of that article.

Anyway, this has all been covered a dozen times.


I guess I was talking about from a fighting point of view. If you're training for a powerlifting comp then you should be powerlifting. That's very specific. I was talking about fighting and general strength. Body weight will get you to the same fighting ready, I believe. I'm not just talking about maximal strength. I'm talking about strength endurance, exposure strength, etc as well. If you can power lift a billion pounds, but you gas in the beginning of the match from focusing on maximal strength too much, and I throw you around...who was stronger at that moment?

This is an ongoing debate in the strength community. I can do body weight anywhere. How're you going to power lift when you aren't near a gym. Nyah Nyah poo poo

[SavvySavage]

What's wrong with only lifting one or two days a week?

Do people think you're supposed to lift every day or something?

I have friends that lift every day and they're monsters. They'd probably beat most untrained fighters and anyone that studies tai ji. There I said it! :)

[Frost]

I guess I was talking about from a fighting point of view. If you're training for a powerlifting comp then you should be powerlifting. That's very specific. I was talking about fighting and general strength. Body weight will get you to the same fighting ready, I believe. I'm not just talking about maximal strength. I'm talking about strength endurance, exposure strength, etc as well. If you can power lift a billion pounds, but you gas in the beginning of the match from focusing on maximal strength too much, and I throw you around...who was stronger at that moment?

This is an ongoing debate in the strength community. I can do body weight anywhere. How're you going to power lift when you aren't near a gym. Nyah Nyah poo poo

actually its not a on going debate, all the sensible coaches know you build strength through progressive resistance (and the best way to do this is with weights) AND then you build sports specific endurance by doing your sport and working the different energy systems through the most appropriate methods

[Dragonzbane76]

U guys make everything so dam hard. Here's a thought, how bout using both in tandem. wow what a ground breaking notion.

[wenshu]

A reasonably trained athlete who increases his pushups from 30 to 100 won't see an increase on the amount of weight he can bench press.

It is certainly not the most efficient way to increase bench press and he won't be breaking any records but it is idiocy to say that increasing strength is not increasing strength.




To increase your endurance for fighting you should spar more (not long distance run)

So why does Pacquiao, Mayweather, etc continue to put in miles every week? Because it's so ineffective I imagine and they just like getting up at 4am to go running?

Seriously what with is this oversimplified one or the other thinking?


According to his hypothesis, he should not have lost (much) maximal strength (as measured by weight lifting) if gymnastics exercises alone were sufficient for strength training. You can allow for some loss due to decrease in CNS efficiency from not actually doing the movements for a while.


Hypothesis? What hypothesis?

He did a few static holds and handstand push ups for three weeks. That is barely scratching the surface of rank beginner's gymnastics strength training.

If he was doing straight arm pulls into iron cross and press to hand stands from the floor then we could talk.


U guys make everything so dam hard. Here's a thought, how bout using both in tandem. wow what a ground breaking notion.

Hey meng, this is the internet. The way I've chosen to train (based on hive mind popular opinion) is the right way and everything else is wrong, wrong, wrong.

[ShaolinDan]

I have friends that lift every day and they're monsters. They'd probably beat most untrained fighters and anyone that studies tai ji. There I said it! :)

Even Bolo?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys are doing the either/or thing and we KNOW that isn't the case guys.
Strength training comes in many forms and depending on your goals you must choose the type that best suits you.
One can indeed get a "maximal" strength workout from BW alone, just not for very long of course.
Muscular endurance is task specific of course BUT it is MORE task specififc than cardio vascular endurance ( in other words there is more carry over from generalized muscular endurance to specific tasks then there is from general cardio to specific cardio).
Boxers do road work because road work is part of the general fitness regime of boxers, just as bag work and sparring is part of the SPECIFIC regime of boxing.
That the cardio from sparirng and bag work translates MORE directly than the cardio from roadwork is only relevant if a boxer could ONLY do one or the other.
That isn't the case of course.

[ShaolinDan]

U guys make everything so dam hard. Here's a thought, how bout using both in tandem. wow what a ground breaking notion.

This is probably the best answer.

All the same, body weight exercises can be done with progressive resistance too... squats, jumping squats, one legged squats, one legged jumping squats, push ups, incline push ups, one handed push-ups, etc.

[Dragonzbane76]

Hey meng, this is the internet. The way I've chosen to train (based on hive mind popular opinion) is the right way and everything else is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Lol u would actally think that is the thought pattern around here after reading a few posts. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lol u would actally think that is the thought pattern around here after reading a few posts. :p

Actually, if you look around this subsection forum, you will see that we have had debates about various forms of ST and training in general.
Frost and I have debated HIIT and I recall also debating HIT ST VS tradional volume and we have debated powerlifting VS OL and debated dynamic tension VS weight training and so forth.
You will also find that, by and far, the majority see the value in ALL types of ST ( to varying degrees of course).
I don't think you will find that " my way is the only way" view here, though you may find the 'My way is better", LOL !

[Dragonzbane76]

I was stating KF mag. In general, not the subforums. i actually have some of my more productive conversations in these subforums.

[IronFist]

It is certainly not the most efficient way to increase bench press and he won't be breaking any records but it is idiocy to say that increasing strength is not increasing strength.


Increasing from 30 to 100 pushups isn't increasing strength as defined by maximal power output.

Muscles get stronger by contracting against heavier loads. Going from 30 to 100 pushups is not increasing the load.

By the same token, someone who can bench 135lbs for 30 reps who increases it to 100 reps has not increased his 1RM or maximal strength.

With the exceptions of:

1) untrained noobs
2) low (approximately under 8-12 reps assuming average time under tension)

...increasing the amount of reps of something you can do is not building strength.

That doesn't mean it's useless, and that doesn't mean it's not going to help you become a better fighter or possibly help you in your sport or activity, but it's not increasing your strength.

By the same token, increasing your 1RM in something does not increase the amount of reps you can do with a lower weight (keeping those previous 2 exceptions in mind).



So why does Pacquiao, Mayweather, etc continue to put in miles every week? Because it's so ineffective I imagine and they just like getting up at 4am to go running?

I dunno, I'm not their trainers.

I'm saying increasing your running distance doesn't really tax or increase the output of the energy systems that are used in a fight. Plenty of dudes who can run 10 miles without stopping get gassed after a 2 minute round of fighting.

But yeah, some of the other examples are spot on. If you are the strongest guy on the planet but run out of endurance after 30 seconds, you better hope you can win the fight in the first 30 seconds.

Similarly, if you have infinite endurance but no strength, it's still going to be a very long fight.

[IronFist]

I have friends that lift every day and they're monsters. They'd probably beat most untrained fighters and anyone that studies tai ji. There I said it! :)

What if the tai ji guys can shoot fireballs, though? Then who would win?

[mickey]

Greetings,

This was supposed to be just a simple book review. I appreciate how you guys have kept it civil.

The author was of the belief that body weight exercises, when properly done, was superior to weight training. This was his bias. We do not have to make it ours. We have the responsibility to find the best way for our own development. For some of us it will be with weight training. For others it will be body weight exercises. And still for others it will be the combination of the two. I do not believe that everyone will respond the same way to a set of given exercises (I am talking genetics here). Until we understand that, these debates will continue.


mickey

[IronFist]

Here, I MSPainted this for you guys.

This is why going from 30-100 pushups doesn't increase your strength.

[mickey]

Hi IronFist,

Would your strength improve if you changed the way you did 30 push ups?

How about if you incorporated tension holds into the set. I am talking about doing five reps and then holding the posture halfway for a period of seconds, alternating until you get to 30?

I used to apply this method with sit ups many years ago. I went from being only able to do 30 sit ups a day to doing 200 sit ups a day. Did my abs get stronger? Yes. I had to back off because I developed this strong esophageal reflex action. I could be having a conversation with you and throw up in mid sentence. And vomiting while sick was painful.

mickey

[YouKnowWho]

What's your goal? Do you want to be able to

- bench press the most on earth?
- knock down everybody on this planet by your hook punch? or
- throw everybody on this planet by your hip throw?

With different goal, your personal training should be different. By mixing 2 different subjects (be strong and function well) in the same discussion can be confusing.

[SavvySavage]

Hi IronFist,

Would your strength improve if you changed the way you did 30 push ups?

How about if you incorporated tension holds into the set. I am talking about doing five reps and then holding the posture halfway for a period of seconds, alternating until you get to 30?

I used to apply this method with sit ups many years ago. I went from being only able to do 30 sit ups a day to doing 200 sit ups a day. Did my abs get stronger? Yes. I had to back off because I developed this strong esophageal reflex action. I could be having a conversation with you and throw up in mid sentence. And vomiting while sick was painful.

mickey


Or doing push ups with a gorilla band wrapped around your back with both your hands in them. The restance will make it so that a few push ups would be equal to many. This would increase maximal stength as well as explosive strength if you try I push really hard.

Body weight exercises aren't as one dimensional as some of you are making them out to be. If you can do a hundred regular push ups then it's time to modify by putting your feet up on a bench. Doing them at this angle makes it more challenging.


Probably the main reason exercise gurus and coaches don't push body weight exercises is because there is little money to be made. In order to make $$ I need you to buy my weights, kettle bells, and come to my gym to train. Maybe this is why weights are pushed over body weight drills.

I saw the dumbest thing at a sports store recently. They were basically selling a duffle bag with separate bags to put sand in. Then you out those bags in the duffle bag and lift. I decided I would make my own only to find out that people have been doing this for a while. Oh well. There's always a sucker who is going to buy a duffle bag. I really thought I came up with a new idea. Silly me. :(

[IronFist]

Hi IronFist,

Would your strength improve if you changed the way you did 30 push ups?

I like the way you're thinking.

The answer is... kind of.

If you do something with less leverage, such as going from "regular" pushups (hands at shoulder width) to "diamond" pushups (hands closer together, more focus on triceps), initially your triceps are probably going to get a little bit stronger (unless you could already do a lot of them when you started) because they're now doing more of the work. But once you get past a certain number of reps (time under tension), they won't get any stronger, meaning they won't be able to generate any additional force.

Same thing with going from diamond pushups to one armed pushups, for example.

It's important to remember in these examples however that something like pushups doesn't translate directly to bench press because even if you were able to match the weights exactly, the motion is still different, and the neural pathways are still different. This is the same reason why bench pressing is not like throwing a punch, and this is the same reason why all those exercises you see people doing on the cable machines, trying to mimic their golf swing, or tennis swing, or baseball swing, or throwing punches, isn't actually making them better or more powerful at that specific movement. Instead, it's making them better at doing a weird variant of it on a cable machine.

Ok, back on topic here.


How about if you incorporated tension holds into the set. I am talking about doing five reps and then holding the posture halfway for a period of seconds, alternating until you get to 30?

That may help if you're holding the posture at a weak point for you, such as where you normally fail. Sometimes power lifters will do partial reps on bench press to focus on the point where they "stall" in their lifts.

It's important to keep in mind that static holds, whether with weights or body weight, are only going to strengthen the muscle at that particular angle (+/- 15 degrees or so, I forgot the exact number).

I believe, however, that there is a minority of the population whose muscles get stronger through the entire ROM even through partial rep training. It must be a CNS wiring issue. But like I said, they're the minority so don't assume you are in this category.

Back to your example. It will appear more "tiring" and you will probably get a huge pump from it, but it's not necessarily going to make your muscles capable of producing more force once you get past a certain time under tension in your training.

Do not mistake effort for increasing strength, and do not mistake a pump for an effective workout. Low rep strength training (all sets 5 reps or less) is "easier" than higher rep endurance or bodybuilding training, because there's much less lactic acid buildup, and much less "burn." In fact, many strength programs recommend stopping a rep before failure, rather than hitting failure or trying to work through it. These workouts don't "hurt" in the traditional sense (that is NOT to say they are "easy"), but they are effective at making you strong.


I used to apply this method with sit ups many years ago. I went from being only able to do 30 sit ups a day to doing 200 sit ups a day. Did my abs get stronger?

Do you know they got stronger because you tested their maximal strength output with weights?


Yes. I had to back off because I developed this strong esophageal reflex action. I could be having a conversation with you and throw up in mid sentence. And vomiting while sick was painful.


Ouch :eek:

I've never heard of anyone throwing up from doing situps, but glad you're better now.

[IronFist]

Or doing push ups with a gorilla band wrapped around your back with both your hands in them. The restance will make it so that a few push ups would be equal to many.

False, there is no conversion for heavier weight -> lighter weight with more reps. The effect on your body is different. In other words, doing fewer pushups with added resistance is not equal to doing more pushups without added resistance.


This would increase maximal stength as well as explosive strength if you try I push really hard.

It could increase maximal strength since you are increasing the force against which your muscles are contracting.


Body weight exercises aren't as one dimensional as some of you are making them out to be. If you can do a hundred regular push ups then it's time to modify by putting your feet up on a bench. Doing them at this angle makes it more challenging.

Putting your feet on a bench changes the angle and puts more of the emphasis on your anterior (front) deltoids and takes some of the emphasis off of your chest. It's a different movement. It's "harder," but that's because you're putting more of the force on a smaller and weaker muscle. So basically, your chest is getting less of a workout.

Handstand pushups are like doing pushups with your feet up even higher. That is almost all deltoids and triceps with almost no chest involvement at all. They are harder because smaller muscles are doing more of the work.


Probably the main reason exercise gurus and coaches don't push body weight exercises is because there is little money to be made. In order to make $$ I need you to buy my weights, kettle bells, and come to my gym to train. Maybe this is why weights are pushed over body weight drills.

Or it's because there is a limit to what you can do without weights.

Body weight training has many good uses, but it's no replacement for weights.


I saw the dumbest thing at a sports store recently. They were basically selling a duffle bag with separate bags to put sand in. Then you out those bags in the duffle bag and lift. I decided I would make my own only to find out that people have been doing this for a while. Oh well. There's always a sucker who is going to buy a duffle bag. I really thought I came up with a new idea. Silly me. :(

Yeah you can make that yourself if you want. I made my own wrist roller out of a piece of PVC pipe and rope for like $5 because I didn't want to buy one.

Most people don't have the money to buy weights (barbells, dumbbells, squat rack, bench) themselves, nor do they have the space to store all of that stuff, so they join gyms.

Yes, there is some expensive nonsense out there. I am a big proponent of DIY if you can do it cheaply and effectively. So far I have DIY'ed a wrist roller and a set of parallettes that I made from about $15 of PVC pipe (they were like $50-100+ online, granted some of those were wood and/or metal). Btw, if you're gonna make parallettes, use the thicker PVC, and don't make them too long so they don't sag.

[wenshu]

Increasing from 30 to 100 pushups isn't increasing strength as defined by maximal power output.

Muscles get stronger by contracting against heavier loads. Going from 30 to 100 pushups is not increasing the load.

By the same token, someone who can bench 135lbs for 30 reps who increases it to 100 reps has not increased his 1RM or maximal strength.

With the exceptions of:

1) untrained noobs
2) low (approximately under 8-12 reps assuming average time under tension)

...increasing the amount of reps of something you can do is not building strength.

That doesn't mean it's useless, and that doesn't mean it's not going to help you become a better fighter or possibly help you in your sport or activity, but it's not increasing your strength.

By the same token, increasing your 1RM in something does not increase the amount of reps you can do with a lower weight (keeping those previous 2 exceptions in mind).




I dunno, I'm not their trainers.

I'm saying increasing your running distance doesn't really tax or increase the output of the energy systems that are used in a fight. Plenty of dudes who can run 10 miles without stopping get gassed after a 2 minute round of fighting.

But yeah, some of the other examples are spot on. If you are the strongest guy on the planet but run out of endurance after 30 seconds, you better hope you can win the fight in the first 30 seconds.

Similarly, if you have infinite endurance but no strength, it's still going to be a very long fight.


Here, I MSPainted this for you guys.

This is why going from 30-100 pushups doesn't increase your strength.

That graph is based on actual science? Or just your own oversimplified misconceptions drawn from the mindless repetition of long debunked myths about strength and conditioning?

There is no linear distinction between training for muscular endurance and training for strength. All muscular endurance training will train a little bit of strength and all strength training will train a little bit of endurance.

There is no black and white, only grey areas. Saying that someone will not increase their strength by increasing the amount of push ups they can do is retarded.

Is it the most efficient way to increase your 1rm? Absolutely not. But not everyone needs a crazy 1 rm max for the work they're putting in.

Sexy though this maybe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-nlhZ0RR4A.

Fighters would be better spent training actual fighting skills and things like VO2 max and cardiac output than trying to put 500lbs over their heads.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can't throw the words strength and power around without qualifiers, this isn't the WC forum.
:D

It would seem that the guy that can do 15 chins is stronger than the guy that can do 10, unless of course the guy dong 10 weights 200 and the guy doing 15 weights 150.
Context and all that.

In a nutshell, it is the rep range that dictates they TYPE of strength you are building/working on.
If you can only do 3 push ups then you are building your maximal strength ( how strong you are at lifting something), but if you cna do 30 push ups, you are in the realm of muscular endurance ( how long/how many reps of an activity you can do).
With BW exercises people are all over the place, fro some it is maximal strength since they can only do a few reps but for others it is muscular endurance because they can do reps "all night long".

It is incorrect to say that the guy that benches 300lbs for 3 reps is stronger than the guy that benches 200 for 10 because unless we qualify what TYPE of strength we are talking about, we may be talking past each other.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fighters would be better spent training actual fighting skills and things like VO2 max and cardiac output than trying to put 500lbs over their heads.

Why not both?
The other day I had to help get a fridge out of someone's basement and NONE of the VO2 Max training would have helped me on that.
Being able to DL over 300lbs did help me though.
Of course if I had to run to the bus in 3.6 seconds, benching 300lbs would make very little difference to me, so would being able to run for 30 min without huff and puffing.

[Frost]

Why not both?
The other day I had to help get a fridge out of someone's basement and NONE of the VO2 Max training would have helped me on that.
Being able to DL over 300lbs did help me though.
Of course if I had to run to the bus in 3.6 seconds, benching 300lbs would make very little difference to me, so would being able to run for 30 min without huff and puffing.

Of course you need both stop being sensible if twoo guys are the same weight and have the same level of conditioning who is going to tire first the stronger one because the one who can put 500 pounds over his head will be using less force and recruiting less muscles and using less power that than the one who cant
Just like you can’t get enough stimulus from your MMA training to really push your conditioning to the level needed, you also can’t get enough strength from just your MMA training
Oh and sorry Ironfist but roadwork is very scientific and very useful for combat sports, anyone who understands the energy systems and the role the aerobic system plays in all of them understands why roadwork is so important

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course you need both stop being sensible if twoo guys are the same weight and have the same level of conditioning who is going to tire first the stronger one because the one who can put 500 pounds over his head will be using less force and recruiting less muscles and using less power that than the one who cant
Just like you can’t get enough stimulus from your MMA training to really push your conditioning to the level needed, you also can’t get enough strength from just your MMA training
Oh and sorry Ironfist but roadwork is very scientific and very useful for combat sports, anyone who understands the energy systems and the role the aerobic system plays in all of them understands why roadwork is so important

Did you ever read Fred Hatfields view on roadwork and why Holyfield curtailed it when he was HW champ?

[Frost]

nope if you have a link...or care to share :o)

id qualify my statement by saying any form of steady state cardio is a good idea, roadwork was used because its easy to keep a steady state and also works the leg muscles

[wenshu]

Of course you need both stop being sensible if twoo guys are the same weight and have the same level of conditioning who is going to tire first the stronger one because the one who can put 500 pounds over his head will be using less force and recruiting less muscles and using less power that than the one who cant
Just like you can’t get enough stimulus from your MMA training to really push your conditioning to the level needed, you also can’t get enough strength from just your MMA training

There is some carry over among all these things. There is no such thing as only training one energy pathway, muscle fiber type etc. Everything is connected in some way.

Someone who trains strict PL without any accompanying conditioning is still making some adaptations to their slow twitch fibers, VO2 max and CO.

Will it be as much as someone who trains methods that specifically attack those systems? Of course not.

[sanjuro_ronin]

nope if you have a link...or care to share :o)

id qualify my statement by saying any form of steady state cardio is a good idea, roadwork was used because its easy to keep a steady state and also works the leg muscles

http://www.sportsci.org/news/news9709/hatfield.html
Training Strategy for Evander Holyfield

The time-honoured -- but unfortunately ill-conceived -- practice of long, slow distance work as a conditioning regimen for boxers is what Evander learned from the training dinosaurs of his youth, and had continued with for years. When I was brought aboard his team, prior to his fight against Buster Douglas in 1990, Evander was in sad physical condition considering the specific demands of his sport. I immediately tested Evander's responses to three minutes of boxing specific total body work (see the 3-minute drill description below), which brought his heart rate above 180 bpm. He needed a full 7 or 8 minutes to recover back to 120 bpm after this single bout, analogous to one hard boxing round. What was worse, after doing five of the 3-minute drills with a one minute rest between, his heart rate remained above 150 between bouts. In short, he did not have the capacity to sustain a high performance level for even half of the duration of a professional fight.

My responsibilities were limited to the physical conditioning component of Evander's training, which had to be integrated into his skills and sparring training. Boxers require not only agility, speed and strength in short, explosive bursts, but also a high level of anaerobic strength endurance in order to perform these bursts over and over for ten rounds or more. I designed Evander's training regimen and nutritional protocol to reflect these all-important elements. The road work ended promptly and completely.

After the 12 week cycle described below, Evander recovered quickly from intense activity, even after a series of ten, 3-minute drills. His agility and limit strength levels increased, and his lean Baudot increased from 208 to 218.

The conditioning program described below was the program I personally supervised Evander through prior to the Buster Douglas fight. He also used the same training cycle in preparation for his most recent fights against Mike Tyson, but I was not there personally to oversee his training. This preparation was supervised by a friend of mine in the strength coaching profession who assures me the Evander followed the prescribed program precisely.

[Frost]

The problem is this is one fighter, with I suspect a well developed aerobic system who could handle dropping the training for a few months and maintains what he had developed through sparring, shadow boxing etc
Most trainers from what I can tell once you have developed a good aerobic system, through road work or other steady state work will then have you move onto more demanding work, knowing that your skill work will help you maintain that level (it take roughly a third of the time to maintain a level as it did to get to that level) Even so roadwork can help with recovery from hard sessions so its good to keep doing some.
The problem comes when fighters move straight to the hard conditioning stuff without ever developing the base…and you see this way too much in MMA with fighters who have forgone road work in favour of hard anaerobic training who gas after one round
The aerobic system plays a vital role in recovery between rounds, clearing the lactic system of waste products so you can go again, so on and so on and is highly active even during anaerobic bursts
Of course hatfield is a living legend and he is Dr Squat so who am I to argue with him

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem is this is one fighter, with I suspect a well developed aerobic system who could handle dropping the training for a few months and maintains what he had developed through sparring, shadow boxing etc
Most trainers from what I can tell once you have developed a good aerobic system, through road work or other steady state work will then have you move onto more demanding work, knowing that your skill work will help you maintain that level (it take roughly a third of the time to maintain a level as it did to get to that level) Even so roadwork can help with recovery from hard sessions so its good to keep doing some.
The problem comes when fighters move straight to the hard conditioning stuff without ever developing the base…and you see this way too much in MMA with fighters who have forgone road work in favour of hard anaerobic training who gas after one round
The aerobic system plays a vital role in recovery between rounds, clearing the lactic system of waste products so you can go again, so on and so on and is highly active even during anaerobic bursts
Of course hatfield is a living legend and he is Dr Squat so who am I to argue with him

I agree with you 100% bro.
I think that it is, again, a case of BOTH and NOT either/or.
The HIIT stuff is ideal for the anerobic factors and the "slow and steady" is ideal for the core, base, aerobic conditoning that is the base from which ALL OTHER Cardio comes from.

[Pork Chop]

Even so roadwork can help with recovery from hard sessions so its good to keep doing some.

This is a big "can". Roadwork can also grind down your joints.
Lately, I'm not such a fan of grinding away mindlessly doing cardio in any form, be it roadwork, elliptical, or swimming.
When I did a lot of elliptical cross trainer, eventually I had problems with my hips.
When I did a lot of roadwork, eventually I had problems with my knees & back.
Swimming was the only one that didn't give me any "repetitive use" injuries; but it ended up being a logistical nightmare, especially in the winter (outdoor pool).

Yoga's the closest thing I have to a low-intensity workout these days and it has a bunch of other fringe benefits.

I think I'd even get a lot more benefit out of shadowboxing an additional 45 minutes instead of 45 minutes around the track.

[SavvySavage]

Here's what I think. I used to run 6 miles every day to train long distance in high school. We had some really good long distance runners that could run a mile fast and a 3 mile race fast as well. But they couldn't sprint because they didn't train for it. Sprinters trained for that short fast briar needed to win a 55 meter dash. Their times improved as the season went on. Sure I filled in to sprint when needed and I could run pretty fast but my sprint times never improved.

If I were training for a tournament I wouldn't be doing long distance running personally. I'm actually about to go jump rope for 3 minute rounds as I believe this would better improve my stamina for a match.

I noticed while sparring he other day that my heart rate don't go back down while resting. That Holyfield story is interesting. I need better stamina.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is a big "can". Roadwork can also grind down your joints.
Lately, I'm not such a fan of grinding away mindlessly doing cardio in any form, be it roadwork, elliptical, or swimming.
When I did a lot of elliptical cross trainer, eventually I had problems with my hips.
When I did a lot of roadwork, eventually I had problems with my knees & back.
Swimming was the only one that didn't give me any "repetitive use" injuries; but it ended up being a logistical nightmare, especially in the winter (outdoor pool).

Yoga's the closest thing I have to a low-intensity workout these days and it has a bunch of other fringe benefits.

I think I'd even get a lot more benefit out of shadowboxing an additional 45 minutes instead of 45 minutes around the track.

A very valid point.
While being able to run fast is something that we can use in our every day life and being able to run for a long period of time is a great skill to have ( in general terms much like being able to lift a heavy weight), swimming is perhaps the best low impact cardio work there is and can even be HIIT cardio too but the logistics can be a pain.
MA wise it does make sense that shadow boxing cardio is better than "road work" cardio.

[SavvySavage]

This is a big "can". Roadwork can also grind down your joints.
Lately, I'm not such a fan of grinding away mindlessly doing cardio in any form, be it roadwork, elliptical, or swimming.
When I did a lot of elliptical cross trainer, eventually I had problems with my hips.
When I did a lot of roadwork, eventually I had problems with my knees & back.
Swimming was the only one that didn't give me any "repetitive use" injuries; but it ended up being a logistical nightmare, especially in the winter (outdoor pool).

Yoga's the closest thing I have to a low-intensity workout these days and it has a bunch of other fringe benefits.

I think I'd even get a lot more benefit out of shadowboxing an additional 45 minutes instead of 45 minutes around the track.


I asked a pretty famous personal trainer recently about people getting injuries from jump roping and if jump rope was bad for your knees, etc.

Here's what he said:

Enter Ross Enamait, author of Never gymless: Rosstraining.com.

"As for movements or exercises that are supposedly bad for the body, it's easier for many to place blame elsewhere, rather than looking in the mirror. For example, if an individual doesn't know how to properly skip rope, he might run into problems (ex. lands too hard, takes on more work than his body is ready for, uses poor footwear, etc.).

Personally, I started skipping rope in the early 1980's. I won a jump rope contest in 1984. It's been almost 30 years and I've never had ANY knee pain.

Here's another fine example of regular rope skipping from a man in his 60's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYch48CMCUA"

Here's his response about a question regarding barefoot running:

Many pains that people experience in the lower body when running/skipping are related to footwear (or running/skipping surface). I personally use wrestling shoes for skipping but I've never gotten into barefoot running. I've run for 20+ years with regular shoes. I follow the simple belief that if it isn't broken, I'm not looking to fix it.

[wenshu]

Long slow distance work produces very specific adaptations in the heart; increase in ventricle size allowing more blood volume to be pumped per beat.

This can be measured by resting heart rate, best taken first thing in the morning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_output. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_output)

It is a very specific adaptation produced by work done at a HR range of 120 ~ 140 over a long period of time. You don't need to run 10 miles. 40 minutes three times a week is usually sufficient to jump start the adaptations.

I think a lot of people just don't like doing it cause it is boring as hell. If it's giving you joint problems you probably need to look at your technique. Stationary bike also works well as a low impact alternative.

Even shadow boxing and calisthenics work so long as you keep your heart rate in the necessary range.

Be clear, this is only one aspect of conditioning, you need to work all the systems in balance.

[Pork Chop]

"As for movements or exercises that are supposedly bad for the body, it's easier for many to place blame elsewhere, rather than looking in the mirror. For example, if an individual doesn't know how to properly skip rope, he might run into problems (ex. lands too hard, takes on more work than his body is ready for, uses poor footwear, etc.).

Personally, I started skipping rope in the early 1980's. I won a jump rope contest in 1984. It's been almost 30 years and I've never had ANY knee pain.


I have no problems jumping rope, I enjoy it.
I jump rope 3 to 5 rounds whenever I'm at the muay thai gym.
You'll find a lot of people who will say that jumping rope is no replacement for roadwork.

[SavvySavage]

I have no problems jumping rope, I enjoy it.
I jump rope 3 to 5 rounds whenever I'm at the muay thai gym.
You'll find a lot of people who will say that jumping rope is no replacement for roadwork.

Jumping rope is a lot harder, IMO.

The part I meant to show was the part he mentioned about injuries. Some people are have injuries that never healed right and they run ow whatever and it gets worse for example.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I asked a pretty famous personal trainer recently about people getting injuries from jump roping and if jump rope was bad for your knees, etc.

Here's what he said:

Enter Ross Enamait, author of Never gymless: Rosstraining.com.

"As for movements or exercises that are supposedly bad for the body, it's easier for many to place blame elsewhere, rather than looking in the mirror. For example, if an individual doesn't know how to properly skip rope, he might run into problems (ex. lands too hard, takes on more work than his body is ready for, uses poor footwear, etc.).

Personally, I started skipping rope in the early 1980's. I won a jump rope contest in 1984. It's been almost 30 years and I've never had ANY knee pain.

Here's another fine example of regular rope skipping from a man in his 60's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYch48CMCUA"

Here's his response about a question regarding barefoot running:

Many pains that people experience in the lower body when running/skipping are related to footwear (or running/skipping surface). I personally use wrestling shoes for skipping but I've never gotten into barefoot running. I've run for 20+ years with regular shoes. I follow the simple belief that if it isn't broken, I'm not looking to fix it.

All that is great but is also irrelevant.
I know a guy that goes over the ROM in doing bench flyes and he has NEVER injured himself but I wouldn't recommend doing that to anyone.
For every person that has NO issues from running I can find a person ( or 2) that has and the same goes for squatting below parallel and blocking punched with your face.

As the saying goes, "if it works for you great".

[Pork Chop]

I think a lot of people just don't like doing it cause it is boring as hell. If it's giving you joint problems you probably need to look at your technique. Stationary bike also works well as a low impact alternative.

Nah, I have structural problems with one of my legs. I was born club foot so my right leg is smaller & weaker (shoe size is 1.5 sizes different, right shin has a distinct curve to it, we're talking huge, noticeable difference). I doubt any level of technique is going to "fix" me and frankly, I'm tired of listening to fans of running tell me that my training is wrong because it's different from them. I would enjoy running if it didn't kick off such chronic pain in my back and my legs.

I don't like stationary bike either - hurts my knees along the inside edge of the kneecap. The boredom factor on the bike hits me more than any other single training activity and it really doesn't do jack for my heart rate.

I have no problems jumping rope and I walk a lot. I'd do more jump rope if I had time actually. The HIIT class I do (cardio bag) has a lot of jumping jacks and jump rope type activities, so I'd say I get a good 3 times a week.

I would expect if running or biking was that important, I would notice a huge fall off in my cardio; but that hasn't happened. In sparring, I can smoke most of my team mates and my recovery between rounds is real good.

As far as spending 45minutes doing any one thing; my time is real limited. I might consider it about 8 weeks out from a fight, but otherwise, I have a limited amount of time to get my work in and I have to make that time count.

[SavvySavage]

All that is great but is also irrelevant.
I know a guy that goes over the ROM in doing bench flyes and he has NEVER injured himself but I wouldn't recommend doing that to anyone.
For every person that has NO issues from running I can find a person ( or 2) that has and the same goes for squatting below parallel and blocking punched with your face.

As the saying goes, "if it works for you great".

If you're healthy when you first start an exercise, do it right, and build up slowly then I think most people will be fine. I think many people who have injuries, from running for example, were injured before or they never ran a day in their lives and went for it.

This thread wins the award for having the most off topic topics.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you're healthy when you first start an exercise, do it right, and build up slowly then I think most people will be fine. I think many people who have injuries, from running for example, were injured before or they never ran a day in their lives and went for it.

This thread wins the award for having the most off topic topics.

Healthy? what is this "healthy" you speak off?
:D

[wenshu]

Nah, I have structural problems with one of my legs. I was born club foot so my right leg is smaller & weaker (shoe size is 1.5 sizes different, right shin has a distinct curve to it, we're talking huge, noticeable difference). I doubt any level of technique is going to "fix" me and frankly, I'm tired of listening to fans of running tell me that my training is wrong because it's different from them. I would enjoy running if it didn't kick off such chronic pain in my back and my legs.

I don't like stationary bike either - hurts my knees along the inside edge of the kneecap. The boredom factor on the bike hits me more than any other single training activity and it really doesn't do jack for my heart rate.

I have no problems jumping rope and I walk a lot. I'd do more jump rope if I had time actually. The HIIT class I do (cardio bag) has a lot of jumping jacks and jump rope type activities, so I'd say I get a good 3 times a week.

I would expect if running or biking was that important, I would notice a huge fall off in my cardio; but that hasn't happened. In sparring, I can smoke most of my team mates and my recovery between rounds is real good.

As far as spending 45minutes doing any one thing; my time is real limited. I might consider it about 8 weeks out from a fight, but otherwise, I have a limited amount of time to get my work in and I have to make that time count.


I hear you.

Oftentimes it just seems like people dismiss a particular method as ineffective simply because they are either not very good at, don't like doing it or some combination thereof. The same erroneous thinking behind WC people saying that lifting weights is detrimental for punching power.

The recovery between rounds is more a function of the HIIT stuff anyways. I work hill sprint intervals for that myself. There is some carry over but Cardiac output is mostly about staying power in the later rounds.

[IronFist]

Man, I remember when I started doing some jump rope conditioning years ago. I had some of the worst calf soreness I've ever had for days after the first session. I overdid it :)

Ok, to all you guys arguing about "strength," say there are two people, each the same weight (not that that matters here).

The first guy has a bench press 1RM of 315 and a 10RM of 225.

The second guy has a bench press 1RM of 300 and a 10RM of 235.

(1RM = one rep max, 10RM = ten rep max)

Who is stronger, according to you?

What about two other guys:

Guy #3 can bench 135 and can do 100 pushups

Guy #4 can bench 415 and can do 25 pushups

Who's stronger?

See, like sanjuro said you have to qualify "strength." I tend to think of "strength" as meaning maximal output, so guy 1 is stronger than guy 2, and guy 4 is stronger than guy 3. Endurance is separate from maximal strength, and going from 30 to 100 pushups is not increasing maximal strength any, hence you are not getting "stronger." You're getting better conditioned and building more endurance for pushups, but not really "stronger." Although there is some overlap with the casual usage of "strong" (eg. seeing a guy doing 100 pushups and going "whoa, look how strong he is!"). But it's not really strength as much as it is endurance.

As mentioned, there is some carryover. If you increase the amount of reps you can bench 225 with from 1 to 4, yes, technically you just increased your endurance (since you're doing the same amount of work for more reps/longer time under tension), but because of the nature of low reps and nervous system adaptation, you also increased your 1RM in the process and therefore got stronger. This is not the same as increasing reps in an exercise from 30 to 100, in which there is going to be no maximal strength increase despite the endurance increase.

So like the chart I posted, the curve is kind of exponential rather than linear.

This is why formulas to estimate your 1RM based on a set of reps tend to break down above 6 reps or so, because the carryover is not linear.

Here is a common formula:

[(weight used) * (reps) * 0.3333] + weight used = estimated 1RM

Say you bench press 225 x 4. That would look like this:

(225 x 4 * .0333) + 225 = 255 (estimated 1RM)

So if you bench 225 x 4, you can reasonably estimate that your 1RM is somewhere near 255.

Now let's look at why this breaks down once you get into "high reps."

Let's say some skinny guy who thinks "weights are bad" never trains with weights, but can do body weight exercises like a champ and has developed very good endurance. This guy weighs 140 pounds.

I read somewhere that doing body weight pushups are roughly equivalent to bench pressing 60% of your body weight (compensating for angle changes, unsprung weight, etc.). I don't know if that's super accurate, but lets use it here.

So when that guy does pushups it's equivalent to about 84 pounds on bench press. Let's say he's been training for a while and can do 100 pushups without stopping. So we can reasonably conclude that, ignoring neural efficiency, he can bench press 84 pounds for 100 reps.

Let's plug that into the formula:

(84 * 100 * 0.0333) + 84 = 363.72

lol.

I promise you our guy can't bench 363.72 pounds, and I would be willing to bet that he probably couldn't even unrack 200 pounds. Why would he be able to? He has never trained with heavy weights and therefore his muscles and nervous system have had no reason to adapt to heavy weights.

Hopefully that helps explain "strength" vs "endurance" and how specific training influences one and/or the other.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I remember when I could do 60 knuckle push ups and 60 sit ups in less than 2 min ( it was a test in my kyokushin gym). I could do 80 or so non-stop at a BW of 150.
I could NOT bench 200lbs.
The last time I did push-ups I think it topped at 62 or 63.
That is about the same as when I was benching on a regular basis and was benching 295 for 5 reps at a BW of 173.
So...

[IronFist]

That is about the same as when I was benching on a regular basis and was benching 295 for 5 reps at a BW of 173.
So...

That's a good bench for that weight. Better than I've ever done. Do you remember what your squat/DL numbers were at that time?

[sanjuro_ronin]

That's a good bench for that weight. Better than I've ever done. Do you remember what your squat/DL numbers were at that time?

Hmmm, I'd have to go an check my log but in the high 300's probably...
I have DL 415 for 5 reps and squated 395 for 3 reps.
I have also done dips with 120lbs at a BW of 175.
The bench was on a machine by the way, those machines that you add weight plates to on either side.

[wenshu]

Ok, to all you guys arguing about "strength," say there are two people, each the same weight (not that that matters here).

The first guy has a bench press 1RM of 315 and a 10RM of 225.

The second guy has a bench press 1RM of 300 and a 10RM of 235.

(1RM = one rep max, 10RM = ten rep max)

Who is stronger, according to you?

What about two other guys:

Guy #3 can bench 135 and can do 100 pushups

Guy #4 can bench 415 and can do 25 pushups

Who's stronger?



Dude. Great examples. Except that they're completely made up.




Now let's look at why this breaks down once you get into "high reps."

Let's say some skinny guy who thinks "weights are bad" never trains with weights, but can do body weight exercises like a champ and has developed very good endurance. This guy weighs 140 pounds.

I read somewhere that doing body weight pushups are roughly equivalent to bench pressing 60% of your body weight (compensating for angle changes, unsprung weight, etc.). I don't know if that's super accurate, but lets use it here.

So when that guy does pushups it's equivalent to about 84 pounds on bench press. Let's say he's been training for a while and can do 100 pushups without stopping. So we can reasonably conclude that, ignoring neural efficiency, he can bench press 84 pounds for 100 reps.

Let's plug that into the formula:

(84 * 100 * 0.0333) + 84 = 363.72

lol.

I promise you our guy can't bench 363.72 pounds, and I would be willing to bet that he probably couldn't even unrack 200 pounds. Why would he be able to? He has never trained with heavy weights and therefore his muscles and nervous system have had no reason to adapt to heavy weights.

Hopefully that helps explain "strength" vs "endurance" and how specific training influences one and/or the other.

You're just making up numbers to plug into a formula, a formula which for all we know you made up as well. None of this means anything.

[IronFist]

Hmmm, I'd have to go an check my log but in the high 300's probably...
I have DL 415 for 5 reps and squated 395 for 3 reps.
I have also done dips with 120lbs at a BW of 175.

Both of those are very good.


The bench was on a machine by the way, those machines that you add weight plates to on either side.

Each of those is different from the rest so I dunno...

Still good numbers, though.

[IronFist]

Dude. Great examples. Except that they're completely made up.

Are you saying they couldn't actually happen?


You're just making up numbers to plug into a formula, a formula which for all we know you made up as well. None of this means anything.

Uh, that's the Epley formula. Sometimes also called the Nebraska formula.

Sorry if I've made you question your world view and you can't accept it. I'm sure some body weight exercises will make you feel better, though.

[wenshu]

Are you saying they couldn't actually happen?

Just because they could exist doesn't make them representative of what is actually possible.



Uh, that's the Epley formula. Sometimes also called the Nebraska formula.

Hey at least you actually backed it up with something substantive.


Sorry if I've made you question your world view and you can't accept it. I'm sure some body weight exercises will make you feel better, though.

Who said I didn't lift weights? You are a presumptuous one aren't you.

Maybe I'll go make up some numbers for body weights/exercise ability and call it an argument then pull a graph out of my ass. That would definitely make me feel better.

[Frost]

This is a big "can". Roadwork can also grind down your joints.
Lately, I'm not such a fan of grinding away mindlessly doing cardio in any form, be it roadwork, elliptical, or swimming.
When I did a lot of elliptical cross trainer, eventually I had problems with my hips.
When I did a lot of roadwork, eventually I had problems with my knees & back.
Swimming was the only one that didn't give me any "repetitive use" injuries; but it ended up being a logistical nightmare, especially in the winter (outdoor pool).

Yoga's the closest thing I have to a low-intensity workout these days and it has a bunch of other fringe benefits.

I think I'd even get a lot more benefit out of shadowboxing an additional 45 minutes instead of 45 minutes around the track.

No it’s not a big can, it’s a fact aerobic work helps increase the blood flow around the body and clear the system of waste products, it helps recovery period, now whether roadwork is bad for one person and they have to use another method, be it its, bodyweight circuits, rowing medicine ball work the principle is still the same, steady state work keeping the heart rate between 130-1250bpm, people use running simply because its easy to keep that steady state, you don’t need a HR monitor yopu simp,y go at an easy pass you can maintain, with other methods, shadow boxing etc you normally have to monitor HR because it can raise and lower depending on the combos thrown etc

I have the same problem, most heavyweights do, I do step ups, medicine ball work, shadow boxing etc over running, but the principle is still the same 30 – 60 minutes of work 2 to 3 times a week
The aerobic system is responsible for recovery as well between rounds and for bringing the heart rate down, now this means other methods need to be worked not just cardiac work, short sprints against resistance, heavy weighted step ups, certain inertval methods which don’t send you anaerobic, but without the base that roadwork/cardiac work builds all the other stuff wont work very well

[sanjuro_ronin]

No it’s not a big can, it’s a fact aerobic work helps increase the blood flow around the body and clear the system of waste products, it helps recovery period, now whether roadwork is bad for one person and they have to use another method, be it its, bodyweight circuits, rowing medicine ball work the principle is still the same, steady state work keeping the heart rate between 130-1250bpm, people use running simply because its easy to keep that steady state, you don’t need a HR monitor yopu simp,y go at an easy pass you can maintain, with other methods, shadow boxing etc you normally have to monitor HR because it can raise and lower depending on the combos thrown etc

I have the same problem, most heavyweights do, I do step ups, medicine ball work, shadow boxing etc over running, but the principle is still the same 30 – 60 minutes of work 2 to 3 times a week
The aerobic system is responsible for recovery as well between rounds and for bringing the heart rate down, now this means other methods need to be worked not just cardiac work, short sprints against resistance, heavy weighted step ups, certain inertval methods which don’t send you anaerobic, but without the base that roadwork/cardiac work builds all the other stuff wont work very well

A valid point, it has for a while been accepted that aerobic work ( low intensity to moderate and low impact if possible) aides in the recovery process in strength training.
You can choose whatever medium you want of course, from running to walking to swimming as long as it does NOT tax your recovery or put more stress on your muscles and CNS.

[Pork Chop]

No it’s not a big can, it’s a fact aerobic work helps increase the blood flow around the body and clear the system of waste products, it helps recovery period, now whether roadwork is bad for one person and they have to use another method, be it its, bodyweight circuits, rowing medicine ball work the principle is still the same, steady state work keeping the heart rate between 130-1250bpm, people use running simply because its easy to keep that steady state, you don’t need a HR monitor yopu simp,y go at an easy pass you can maintain, with other methods, shadow boxing etc you normally have to monitor HR because it can raise and lower depending on the combos thrown etc

I have the same problem, most heavyweights do, I do step ups, medicine ball work, shadow boxing etc over running, but the principle is still the same 30 – 60 minutes of work 2 to 3 times a week
The aerobic system is responsible for recovery as well between rounds and for bringing the heart rate down, now this means other methods need to be worked not just cardiac work, short sprints against resistance, heavy weighted step ups, certain inertval methods which don’t send you anaerobic, but without the base that roadwork/cardiac work builds all the other stuff wont work very well

When you keep a check on intensity, yes, you are completely right, it will aid in recovery.
Thing is, most people prescribe jogging and never qualify light intensity.
If anything, they'll tell you a certain pace to maintain or distance to hit.
My point is that it's not a nice, relaxing, low intensity workout for everyone - sometimes it's a struggle that can break you down.

30-60 min of work 2-3 times a week? Definitely!
Whether it's walking, yoga, calisthenics, shadowboxing, or kung fu forms.
Some low intensity stuff is important.

[Frost]

When you keep a check on intensity, yes, you are completely right, it will aid in recovery.
Thing is, most people prescribe jogging and never qualify light intensity.
If anything, they'll tell you a certain pace to maintain or distance to hit.
My point is that it's not a nice, relaxing, low intensity workout for everyone - sometimes it's a struggle that can break you down.

30-60 min of work 2-3 times a week? Definitely!
Whether it's walking, yoga, calisthenics, shadowboxing, or kung fu forms.
Some low intensity stuff is important.

Hence i always like to work of heart rate numbers not distance or pace, its normally the same ballpark figure for everyone and ensures you dont go too fast or too hard

[sanjuro_ronin]

When you keep a check on intensity, yes, you are completely right, it will aid in recovery.
Thing is, most people prescribe jogging and never qualify light intensity.
If anything, they'll tell you a certain pace to maintain or distance to hit.
My point is that it's not a nice, relaxing, low intensity workout for everyone - sometimes it's a struggle that can break you down.

30-60 min of work 2-3 times a week? Definitely!
Whether it's walking, yoga, calisthenics, shadowboxing, or kung fu forms.
Some low intensity stuff is important.

The heartrate thing is the way to go, like Frost mentioned and monitors aren't that expensive but another way to go is by talking, if you can carry o n a conversation while doing your cardio, it is a low/moderate pace.

[wenshu]

Hai guys!

One of my snatch attempts.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VwEB3SvuE1c/T1EITHPV_0I/AAAAAAAAAAk/NmOT2RFimYM/s1600/SnatchFail.gif

[Zenshiite]

This is probably the best answer.

All the same, body weight exercises can be done with progressive resistance too... squats, jumping squats, one legged squats, one legged jumping squats, push ups, incline push ups, one handed push-ups, etc.

I was going to say.... all this talk of "you need to increase resistance and you can't do that with push ups" is plain BS. There are any number of variables you can change to adjust your push-ups, pull-ups, squats, ab work(I'm following Paul Wade's Convict Conditioning, so I'm sticking with progressions for hanging leg raises), back bridges, handstand push-ups, etc. How is that not part of the conversation?

Sure, going beyond 30 push-ups is silly for maximal strength gains, but change that push-up into a variation that's closer to a one-arm push-up and you're immediately changed your resistance. And you can change the elevation of your feet, for that matter.

Do progressions into one-arm pull-ups, pistol squats, one-arm handstand push-ups. And you can go beyond that. Want to make those pulll-ups more challenging? Strap some weights on. Handstand push-ups more difficult? Get a couple boxes to put your hands on and get your head lower than you otherwise could.

[YouKnowWho]

The reason that we need "equipment" training because by using our own body only, our development will be limited. In order to push ourselves beyong that limit, "equipment" will be needed. Our ancestor had found this out thousands years ago. It makes no sense for any modern guy to come up a "modern" theory to disproof it.