Finnally a good bagua fighting video

[wiz cool c]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=6h-gev8goEI&NR=1
finnally a good bagua fighting video. in my opinion that guy in the white shirt did a dam good job expressing bagua under pressure

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

No, he really didn't.

[Kung Fu God]

Dizzy watching that guy.

1) Nobody gives you their hand to walk round and round with.

2) Walking round and round does not mean its Ba Gua. It means someone wants you to think they look like Ba Gua. Ba Gua is all about what happens after contact.

3) With the opening side blade kick from a distance, round house and axe kick... better representation of Tae Kown Do.

[Kung Fu God]

One also has to understand levels.

Pee Wee league vs Pee Wee league

Little League v Little League

Pony League v Pony League

College vs College

Pro vs Pro


At every level baseball is being represented..... but differently. You're not going to find high level Ba Gua by two teenagers outside uncle's Dongzhou dumpling shop.

[wiz cool c]

No, he really didn't.

ok master show me your great kung fu fighting video

[wiz cool c]

Dizzy watching that guy.

1) Nobody gives you their hand to walk round and round with.

2) Walking round and round does not mean its Ba Gua. It means someone wants you to think they look like Ba Gua. Ba Gua is all about what happens after contact.

3) With the opening side blade kick from a distance, round house and axe kick... better representation of Tae Kown Do.

everyone always says that is not bagua when they see a fight with a bagua guy. i have studied bagua in america and in china where i live, and he used ever aspect of baugua,the kicks ,throws and hand techniques. maybe you guys watch too many old kung fu movie and expect the guy to never get touched.

[hskwarrior]

2) Walking round and round does not mean its Ba Gua. It means someone wants you to think they look like Ba Gua. Ba Gua is all about what happens after contact.

Yet it is still Bagua as only Bagua students circle each other in such a fashion. :rolleyes:


1) Nobody gives you their hand to walk round and round with.

I don't even do bagua but i dare someone to attack my front hand. you will quickly learn you got set up. :rolleyes:



3) With the opening side blade kick from a distance, round house and axe kick... better representation of Tae Kown Do.

its no wonder why you left gung fu. LMAO it doesn't even want you. LAME As$

[Snipsky]

Ray Pina wants to be a KUNG FU GOD. His story is a tragic one. His ship has sailed as time quickly passes by him and his pawr wittle shouldah injuwee. sooooo sad for him.....NOT! :D

Kung Fu doesn't want him. This forum doesn't want him. must make you wonder what his BJJ mates think of him and his stinky gi. :D

[Kung Fu God]

All of that doesn't make the above video substantial.

Signs I look for to determine Ba Gua skill are regular all steps that happen to be kicks. They're low, looks likes walking, but attacking legs. Not lean back to kick high... like TKD.

I also look for striking incoming attacks and using them as levels to turn the other. Ba Gua does not circle themselves. They turn the other.

[hskwarrior]

ll of that doesn't make the above video substantial.

Signs I look for to determine Ba Gua skill are regular all steps that happen to be kicks. They're low, looks likes walking, but attacking legs. Not lean back to kick high... like TKD.

I also look for striking incoming attacks and using them as levels to turn the other. Ba Gua does not circle themselves. They turn the other.

You're no authority on Bagua and no one really cares about you RAY......:p

[Kung Fu God]

Ray Pina wants to be a KUNG FU GOD. His story is a tragic one. His ship has sailed as time quickly passes by him and his pawr wittle shouldah injuwee. sooooo sad for him.....NOT! :D

Kung Fu doesn't want him. This forum doesn't want him. must make you wonder what his BJJ mates think of him and his stinky gi. :D

If Ray Pina's story is tragic -- a lifetime martial artist who continues to compete and lives in Puerto Rico surfing, winning regional BJJ tournaments -- what is yours? With the exception of one or two others here, no one here has fought outside of the confines of TCMA tournaments. Post after post arguing over photos with students, ideas and philosophies but no one even at a standard level of today, never mind dominating. Many chiefs but no indians. All sifu/masters, no able fighters.

And to ban Ray Pina for pointing these truths out.... shameful! We should all be embarrassed. martial artists who are so thin skinned they can't handle diverging opinions? Weak!

[wenshu]

How's the diet going?

[Snipsky]

If Ray Pina's story is tragic -- a lifetime martial artist who continues to compete and lives in Puerto Rico surfing, winning regional BJJ tournaments -- what is yours? With the exception of one or two others here, no one here has fought outside of the confines of TCMA tournaments. Post after post arguing over photos with students, ideas and philosophies but no one even at a standard level of today, never mind dominating. Many chiefs but no indians. All sifu/masters, no able fighters.

And to ban Ray Pina for pointing these truths out.... shameful! We should all be embarrassed. martial artists who are so thin skinned they can't handle diverging opinions? Weak!

Ray Pina lives in a very lonely world. yes, his story is tragic. but only to him. the rest of us giggle about it like giddy little girls. LOL

[Lee Chiang Po]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=6h-gev8goEI&NR=1
finnally a good bagua fighting video. in my opinion that guy in the white shirt did a dam good job expressing bagua under pressure

Really? A good fighting video of Gagua? As compared to what?

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=6h-gev8goEI&NR=1
finnally a good bagua fighting video. in my opinion that guy in the white shirt did a dam good job expressing bagua under pressure

It's not a good idea to "cross your legs" in front of your opponent in combat. If your opponent just rushes in with good timing, you will be down.

[Syn7]

The guy in the white has horrible throws. So many times I'm like "ok now he has his back, surely he can secure the throw" yet he did nothing but lose position. These kinds of vids are ok with context but overall I find them boring compared to what I could be watching.

And how many grapplers out there werent watching this vid the whole time thinking "i could have taken him down there, and there, and there, and there......"

Based on what I saw in the vid I really do think I could take eaither of those guys in a street fight. Of course maybe they are far better than the vid suggests. Prolly not tho.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It's not a good idea to "cross your legs" in front of your opponent in combat. If your opponent just rushes in with good timing, you will be down.

Which is just one reason why i didn't think this was a good demonstration of Bagua.

The Bagua player here started his mistakes with this. If you watch, you will notice he is spending a great deal of time in the prey position, and giving up the predatory position to his opponent. He's lucky his opponent does not know how to take the gifts he was given.

Real Bagua does not leave you constantly vulnerable like this.

[wiz cool c]

master master please you video

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

master master please you video

If you had any level of understanding, you would comprehend my words, and not need me to post a video.

[wiz cool c]

put up or shut up

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

So, based on your insecurities here, I take it you are the bad Bagua kid in the video?

[wiz cool c]

So, based on your insecurities here, I take it you are the bad Bagua kid in the video?

i takes a big man to put downs someones hard work and accomplishments with a few words on the internet

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

i takes a big man to put downs someones hard work and accomplishments with a few words on the internet

Or a stark realist.

[Kung Fu God]

put up or shut up

Our entire Kung Fu community needs to heed these words.

[Kung Fu God]

You're no authority on Bagua and no one really cares about you RAY......:p

Ray Pina's Ba Gua lineage goes like this:

Dong Hei Chuan, Gung Bo Tien, Wong Tson Fei, Master Bond Chan...... that's probably one of the most direct lineages on this forum.

Ray Pina also won a Vale Tudo match in Rio last Oct. He also took Gold int the Carribean BJJ open in 2009 and 2008.

How does this compare to what you are currently doing with your martial art? What you have done?

[Mas Judt]

What's with all the hating of Ray Pina? I go away for a while and this place seems more like a schoolyard than the um... schoolyard it used to look like.

Ray clearly has found his way and is stepping up for it. Good for him!

[Lebaufist]

Why do people on web forums always pretend they are always picture perfect when they fight? :rolleyes:

Its was scrappy, a nice exchange, a few nice techniques here and there.

A few missed opportunities, so what...


In the heat of it, you do what you can do, when you can do it.

[Pork Chop]

What's with all the hating of Ray Pina? I go away for a while and this place seems more like a schoolyard than the um... schoolyard it used to look like.

Ray clearly has found his way and is stepping up for it. Good for him!

I think it's because he became a broken record with how "everybody in tcma is cr@p, nobody can fight, you're all wasting your time."

Personally I got a bit peeved when I posted videos of a couple mma fighters talking about their shaolin training experience, how it affected them as people and as fighters; to which Ray kept repeating that since some wiki site listed what they do as kickboxing/muay thai that none of their other training "counts".

I don't mind the guy personally. I think he brings a unique view to various discussions. I just wish he wasn't so closed-minded against kung fu. Yes, he got burned. Yes, he's seen some cr@ppy schools - we all have. But that doesn't mean that everybody is clueless on how to use the stuff or that the stuff is fake.

Heck, our own lkfmdc has an entire blog devoted to "this is what I learned, this is what I still use, this is how I updated the training, and these are the champions that have come out of my gym."
Of course lkfmdc "doesn't count", because he has a muay thai program now. Forget the fact that sanda events are hard to come by, muay thai events are 10 times more common, and his fighters needed to learn how to succeed in the thai ruleset & scoring system. None of it "counts" because of the name of the class & because his fighters aren't fighting out of deep horse stances.

Not only that, but there are other fighters on the board who've related their own, personal experiences. Again, none of it "counts" because they weren't fighting bareknuckle, with deep, rooted, training stances, and slashing people up with tiger claws like Ray expected.

The same argument over and over, thread after thread, every single post just became tiresome.
His kung fu fantasies were shattered. Okay. Get over it. Either reapply what's there, to make it functional, and make it your own; or walk away and do something else.
Most of us here just don't feel like hearing a broken record repeating "what you're doing is useless" ad nauseum.

[taai gihk yahn]

really?

wow

[Brule]

really?

wow

Some think he has been resurrected as the Kung Fu God, myself included.

[taai gihk yahn]

Some think he has been resurrected as the Kung Fu God, myself included.

it wouldn't be the first time he pretended not to be himself...

[wenshu]

I think it's because he became a broken record with how "everybody in tcma is cr@p, nobody can fight, you're all wasting your time."

Personally I got a bit peeved when I posted videos of a couple mma fighters talking about their shaolin training experience, how it affected them as people and as fighters; to which Ray kept repeating that since some wiki site listed what they do as kickboxing/muay thai that none of their other training "counts".

I don't mind the guy personally. I think he brings a unique view to various discussions. I just wish he wasn't so closed-minded against kung fu. Yes, he got burned. Yes, he's seen some cr@ppy schools - we all have. But that doesn't mean that everybody is clueless on how to use the stuff or that the stuff is fake.

Heck, our own lkfmdc has an entire blog devoted to "this is what I learned, this is what I still use, this is how I updated the training, and these are the champions that have come out of my gym."
Of course lkfmdc "doesn't count", because he has a muay thai program now. Forget the fact that sanda events are hard to come by, muay thai events are 10 times more common, and his fighters needed to learn how to succeed in the thai ruleset & scoring system. None of it "counts" because of the name of the class & because his fighters aren't fighting out of deep horse stances.

Not only that, but there are other fighters on the board who've related their own, personal experiences. Again, none of it "counts" because they weren't fighting bareknuckle, with deep, rooted, training stances, and slashing people up with tiger claws like Ray expected.

The same argument over and over, thread after thread, every single post just became tiresome.
His kung fu fantasies were shattered. Okay. Get over it. Either reapply what's there, to make it functional, and make it your own; or walk away and do something else.
Most of us here just don't feel like hearing a broken record repeating "what you're doing is useless" ad nauseum.

This sums it up perfectly.

I for one actually agree in principle with a lot of what he says. However, it's painfully obvious he is not interested in any sort of constructive discussion and just wants to act out some deep seated resentments. He clearly has a major grudge against anything Chinese and refuses to even acknowledge any evidence presented to him to refute his one note criticisms. He is obviously obsessed with kung foobar or he wouldn't keep coming back to repeat the same **** over and over again.

Someone burnt him real bad. This is like a group therapy session where Ray keeps acting out a cry for help and everybody has to tell him they're perception of how his behavior reflects his personal animosities.

And really that's ok. If that is his contribution than so be it. Just be aware that if you put yourself up on a pedestal people are going to call you on it. So don't get all butt hurt when really all you wanted was the attention in the first place.

I don't even think he should have been banned, especially after he was initially granted a reprieve. On the other hand calling out other members in open thread titles shows a definite lack of decorum. Just send a PM.

He was already plenty obnoxious before he started using an alt and referring to himself in the third person so really banning him just made it worse. Everybody piling on him really only reinforces his feeling of being a pariah. Maybe if everybody started kissing his ass and playing into his delusions of grandeur he would stop trying to publicly ameliorate his personal demons and see a therapist/binge drink like normal people.

[Kung Fu God]

put up or shut up


i takes a big man to put downs someones hard work and accomplishments with a few words on the internet



Either reapply what's there, to make it functional, and make it your own; or walk away and do something else.
Most of us here just don't feel like hearing a broken record repeating "what you're doing is useless" ad nauseum.




I for one actually agree in principle with a lot of what he says. However, it's painfully obvious he is not interested in any sort of constructive discussion and just wants to act out some deep seated resentments. He clearly has a major grudge against anything Chinese and refuses to even acknowledge any evidence presented to him to refute his one note criticisms. .

To continu to do the same things the same way and expect different results......?

The criticism is that video does not show "GOOD" Ba Gua fighting.

Ray Pina's critisicm was that their is no video of Good Kung Fu in relation to Good other styles.... Best Kung Fu vs Best Boxing. Best Kung Fu vs. Best Judo. Best Kung Fu vs Best MMA.

Instead of considering the argument, looking at ourselves as a community of devoted martial artists and the capabilities we produce in our students, he was banned.

[Kung Fu God]

What's with all the hating of Ray Pina? I go away for a while and this place seems more like a schoolyard than the um... schoolyard it used to look like.

Ray clearly has found his way and is stepping up for it. Good for him!




Ray Pina got banned? really?

wow


While websites and magazines have a right to control their content, that right does not cancel out individual right. There is certainly a case for discrimination and cyber bullying.

[hskwarrior]

To continu to do the same things the same way and expect different results......?

The criticism is that video does not show "GOOD" Ba Gua fighting.

Ray Pina's critisicm was that their is no video of Good Kung Fu in relation to Good other styles.... Best Kung Fu vs Best Boxing. Best Kung Fu vs. Best Judo. Best Kung Fu vs Best MMA.

Instead of considering the argument, looking at ourselves as a community of devoted martial artists and the capabilities we produce in our students, he was banned.

everyone see's through your fake persona and knows who you are. but you're a nut talking about yourself in the third person. LOL

[Pork Chop]

Ray Pina's critisicm was that their is no video of Good Kung Fu in relation to Good other styles.... Best Kung Fu vs Best Boxing. Best Kung Fu vs. Best Judo. Best Kung Fu vs Best MMA.

Instead of considering the argument, looking at ourselves as a community of devoted martial artists and the capabilities we produce in our students, he was banned.

That is not it at all.
Like a child covering his ears to anything he didn't want to hear, Ray denied any and all empirical evidence contrary to his claims & accusations.
His nonsensical ranting caused the forum to lose established members like lkfmdc.
He proved himself closed-minded, not open to respectful discussion, and that's why he was banned.
Granted, I'm not sure I agree with the banning, but when you refuse to accept any body else's input or opinions, then what is the point of discussion?
There are plenty of people retooling their stuff and moving to be more active in sporting venues as a means to stress test their skills; look at Masterkiller, among others.
Many people realize the need for change from old ways of thinking and are working hard to incorporate it.
They don't appreciate being told that their hard work "doesn't count."

[YouKnowWho]

Real Bagua does not leave you constantly vulnerable like this.

The Bagua "circle walking" training is for health and self-cultivation. It's not for combat.

Trying to use "self-cultivation" training in "combat" is as bad as trying to use "combat training" for "health".

A simple example is that "speed" is not that important in "health" and "self-cultivation". But it's extream important in "combat". For those who enjoy their training in slow speed, they may find a big surprise in combat.

[Kung Fu God]

That is not it at all.
Like a child covering his ears to anything he didn't want to hear, Ray denied any and all empirical evidence contrary to his claims & accusations.
His nonsensical ranting caused the forum to lose established members like lkfmdc.
He proved himself closed-minded, not open to respectful discussion, and that's why he was banned.

I have to say, I agree with his general statements.....that doesn't make me close minded. Do you feel you presented ample evidence showing that Kung Fu is consistently producing fighters capable of competing in non-TCMA specific events such as boxing, professional kick boxing and MMA? Is there a recognized name in Kung Fu competing in the UFC? Has Kung Fu produced a champion in Pride, UFC, King of Cage? Has Kung Fu wrestling won prominently in Abu Dhabi?

I just don't think we have produced that level of talent yet. Maybe that hasn't been our focus. But we won't get there by turning a blind eye. How do we get our best fighters from standing out in San Da to at least toeing the line in main stream events? Not by doing the same thing we've done in the 80s, 90s.

This featured Ba Gua player is not the answer. Does he have Ba Gua skill.... some. Did he gain good position a number of times.... yes! That's very good. SHows skill and understanding. Could he gain such a position on a college level grappler? Remains to be seen.

[Kung Fu God]

The Bagua "circle walking" training is for health and self-cultivation. It's not for combat.

Trying to use "self-cultivation" training in "combat" is as bad as trying to use "combat training" for "health".
.

I would also say its trains connectivity and fluidity. As well as drive in kicking.... it also serves as a kind of structure maintaining shadowboxing.

[David Jamieson]

Ray was banned for being an agitating ass hole with no purpose except to troll people.

I was the one who had him banned.

And I'll do it again to anyone who follows suit.

hope that is LOUD and CLEAR to you. :mad:

[hskwarrior]

And I'll do it again to anyone who follows suit.

hope that is LOUD and CLEAR to you.

KUNG FU GOD (WANNABE) is none other than RAY PINA. He just can't NOT sound like himself. is he really that lame thinking no one can tell they are one and the same? :confused::confused::confused:

[Kung Fu God]

\ He clearly has a major grudge against anything Chinese .

This about someone who spent over 10 years training Kung Fu in NYC Chinatown with Chinese Americans? About someone who visits China every year? Someone who participated in this Kung Fu forum until being banned for trying to light a fire under our a$$es?


Oh, but we don't need to hear it.

No?

[David Jamieson]

If found to be true, he's out.
A bad attitude is like a flat tire, you are not going to get far with it.

[hskwarrior]

If found to be true, he's out.
A bad attitude is like a flat tire, you are not going to get far with it.

just read through his posts. he can't change the hater that dwells within.


This about someone who spent over 10 years training Kung Fu in NYC Chinatown with Chinese Americans? About someone who visits China every year? Someone who participated in this Kung Fu forum until being banned for trying to light a fire under our a$$es?

There are better ways to light a fire under the as$es of some. Your approach is completely destructive to whatever kung fu is left in this world. You have shamed all of your kung fu elders with your hatred.

[Kung Fu God]

Ray was banned for being an agitating ass hole with no purpose except to troll people.

I was the one who had him banned.

And I'll do it again to anyone who follows suit.

hope that is LOUD and CLEAR to you. :mad:

I'll save you the trouble.....


it is me you kook!

I just wanted to see if there was a legit reason for me being banned. I'm glad you came out with it.

I posted here to provide some honest, unbiased feedback.... as a fighter! I've been accused of setting people up for sparring and then thrashing them. When the video shows the same people coming back to fight more than once. Or stepping up to fight after I just beat someone. After seeing the intensity. I showed footage of me fighting when I only trained Kung Fu. Pure TCMA. Didn't win fights, but definitely showed moments of technique. Not to mention I'm still fighting. And winning.

fata$$ warrior. Look at this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA6sLOQpO4w&list=UUcs6YqQSMD9bNtKTH_WOQMg&index=5&feature=plcp
At 3:22..... that's how you control both hands before hitting. Notice. Total control= other goes down when hit.

And this video is now almost 10 years old. Now there is years of competing MMA experience behind it.

Here is one of the 4 students I've had in my life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S80wD9YBKVQ&list=UUcs6YqQSMD9bNtKTH_WOQMg&index=7&feature=plcp

Again, almost 10 years ago.

Perfect? Far from it! Room for improvement? Tons. That's what the past 10 years were far. And the next 10 years as well.

Shame on all of you for allowing someone to be banned for disagreeing. For repeatedly defending their position. It isn't going to change because you don't have the courage to change the way you change and relate to the martial community as a whole.

Good luck. You're all going to need it.

[hskwarrior]

it is me you kook!

I just wanted to see if there was a legit reason for me being banned. I'm glad you came out with it

So phukin lame........it was crystal clear.

[Kung Fu God]

So phukin lame........it was crystal clear.

I'm going to show up at your door months from now and challenge you in front of your students and then come back on here and post the video of your fat ass ducking me. Or me hurting you severely.

[Yao Sing]

Shame on all of you for allowing someone to be banned for disagreeing.

Obviously he still doesn't get it.

[hskwarrior]

i'm going to show up at your door months from now and challenge you in front of your students and then come back on here and post the video of your fat ass ducking me. Or me hurting you severely.

rotfflmao!!!!!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are better ways to light a fire under the as$es of some. Your approach is completely destructive to whatever kung fu is left in this world. You have shamed all of your kung fu elders with your hatred.

This truly sums it up Ray.
The simple fact is not WHAT you are saying, it is HOW and WHY you are saying it.

[Drake]

I'm going to show up at your door months from now and challenge you in front of your students and then come back on here and post the video of your fat ass ducking me. Or me hurting you severely.

Considering you cut up your heavy bag because you thought it was satanic, it's not very Jesus-ey of you to threaten people.

And FYI, folks... this isn't the only alias of Ray floating about. He's like that V for Vendetta dude.

[hskwarrior]

Considering you cut up your heavy bag because you thought it was satanic, it's not very Jesus-ey of you to threaten people.

I got something waiting for the day he shows up on my doorstep. :D

[wenshu]

Banning him is not going to make a difference.

He can't stay away from this place.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I got something waiting for the day he shows up on my doorstep. :D

Don't forget the lube.
:D

[hskwarrior]

Don't forget the lube.

LMAO.....i heard that!!!

[Pork Chop]

I have to say, I agree with his general statements.....that doesn't make me close minded. Do you feel you presented ample evidence showing that Kung Fu is consistently producing fighters capable of competing in non-TCMA specific events such as boxing, professional kick boxing and MMA? Is there a recognized name in Kung Fu competing in the UFC? Has Kung Fu produced a champion in Pride, UFC, King of Cage? Has Kung Fu wrestling won prominently in Abu Dhabi?

I just don't think we have produced that level of talent yet. Maybe that hasn't been our focus. But we won't get there by turning a blind eye. How do we get our best fighters from standing out in San Da to at least toeing the line in main stream events? Not by doing the same thing we've done in the 80s, 90s.



Found another nice link listing off major kung fu fighters for you:
http://www.usaskf.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38:a-brief-history-of-the-us-open-challenge&catid=5:press-releases&Itemid=15

I know a lot of these guys personally, some through friends.
A lot of them I have first hand experience with what and how they train.
KJ went with the Baltimore San Shou coach (Julio Trujillo) to fight sanda on chinese tv.
Melvin Guilard fought my Baltimore San Shou team mate (Jon Tissue) at New Orleans.
Pat Barry knocked out my Baltimore San Shou team mate (Paul) with a head kick.
Aaron Honeycutt's a Maryland guy who trained with almost every one of my team mates & coaches.
The Boston guys (Josh, Marvin, Pope, Mutant) have made appearances on this forum.
Met Max Chen at Kuoshu Lei Tai event in Maryland through my team mates.
Scott Sheely has accounts on the Underground.
Jose Palacios fought my Baltimore San Shou team mate (Rahsaan Kimbrow).
Mike Altman was close with the Baltimore San Shou coach (Julio Trujillo) and we've exchanged emails.
Ndaba was my main teacher at the Wong Kung Fu Association in Washington DC.

A lot of these guys did move on to do more - boxing, muay thai, etc.
Some just don't want to do mma, myself included.
I don't enjoy training ground work; it makes me claustrophobic, it's not fun and I've had very bad luck with training partners in the past. I don't do mma because I don't want to get ground & pounded by a high school wrestler with no stand up, who's protected by the illegality of soccer kicks, stomps, downward elbows, and knees to a downed opponent.
Not every stand up guy wants to go do mma, but most guys do try out muay thai and/or boxing.
Why should shuai chiao people do Abu Dhabi? Most of the good ones will at least try their hand at Judo from time to time.
Everything does not start and stop with mma.

I'll give you a little anecdote about Ndaba because I don't have the time or patience to go through all of them. He grew up doing Jow Ga kung fu and boxing. He trained with American Kickboxing pros and eventually became a Team Suriyasak muay thai fighter under Master K in the DC/Virginia area; all while still mainly training Jow Ga. He distinguished himself in muay thai fights as part of the Suriyasak team by knocking out people with front kicks - an EXTREME rarity in muay thai; but one of the signature techniques of Jow Ga. "How can such a simple thing be a signature technique?" you ask; well, the creator of Jow Ga (Jow Lung) killed someone with such a front kick (ie the "stealing the heart kick"). Ndaba's use of it was definitely a byproduct of his Jow Ga training. He still teaches at the school now. He still plays forms and does traditional training. Current mma.tv kickboxing forum moderator and former KFM member Khun Kao Charuad can provide verification of the above details; as far as I know, his fights aren't on youtube (yet).

[Kung Fu God]

I'll keep it simple because I also have lost patience and this is my last post here for a long while.

Trained is past tense. Fought is past tense.... I once won a tournament with a spinning back kick. Another with a shooto.

I don't know any of these people because they aren't doing anything in MMA that makes them stand out.... maybe it's a claustraphobia thing.

BJJ, TKD, Karate, Thai, FreeStyle.... all of these have produced main stream fighters in UFC, Pride, King of Cage in the past. Most important, they do TODAY! Now!

If you want to list a few names of San Da players, there's no shortage of video of Kung Fu guys getting limbs broken by BJJ players. Being embarrassed.

I respect San Da fighters. It's extremely challenging and tough. I think you do them a disservice classifying meatballs like fatboywarrior with them. At the same time, they call it ultimate fighting for a reason. If you don't allow athletes who specialize in take downs/ground and pounds, you're avoiding.... plane and simple. For all the talk of MMA being sport. San Da is much more sport oriented with constant stoppage.

[Lucas]

racism is gross

[Pork Chop]

I don't know any of these people because they aren't doing anything in MMA that makes them stand out.... maybe it's a claustraphobia thing.

never heard of kj noons? okay there tough guy....


At the same time, they call it ultimate fighting for a reason. If you don't allow athletes who specialize in take downs/ground and pounds, you're avoiding.... plane and simple. For all the talk of MMA being sport. San Da is much more sport oriented with constant stoppage.

Wanna see a MMA guy's face go ghost white?
Tell him he's gotta go full thai rules with mma gloves against a legit muay thai guy.
Meanwhile, the muay thai guy's thinking "why do we gotta wear the gloves?".

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't think that anyone is saying that MMA is not the "ultimate" sports testing ground for one all-around fighting ability, it most certainly yes just that.
Arguably it may NOT be the b est way to develop that ability but it certainly is the best way to test that ability.
Of course before there was MMA many fighters tested their "all around" fighting ability by testing their "sub systems".
You wanted to test your punching you did boxing.
Test your kicking? TKD
Grappling? Judo or wrestling
Test your total striking aresenal? MT
And so forth.
MMA allows us to test them all at once, yes BUT it doesn't allow us to develop them to their highest level all at once.
No 5 year MMA guy will have the throwing skills of 5 years in Judo or the punching skill of 5 years in boxing, etc.
But then again MMA fighters/practioners are working on developing the most complete game they can for their chosen venue, just like every other sport combat guy.
Its fine to compare one combat sport with another BUT what exactly are you comparing and why?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

The Bagua "circle walking" training is for health and self-cultivation. It's not for combat.

Trying to use "self-cultivation" training in "combat" is as bad as trying to use "combat training" for "health".

A simple example is that "speed" is not that important in "health" and "self-cultivation". But it's extream important in "combat". For those who enjoy their training in slow speed, they may find a big surprise in combat.

I disagree completely. Bagua is a combat art. It was developed to protect caravans and was the art of the Imperial guard in the last dynasty. The circle walking has direct applications to training and usage.

I think the issue here is that it's almost NEVER actually done. Only pale imitations of it are seen openly. This becomes clear when you are blessed with seeing some of the real stuff in person.

I think almost all online demos, and competitions I have seen it in the practitioner has the container, but not the art that goes inside of it. I really think Bagua is an almost extinct art...well, the real stuff anyway.

People who walk around in a circle for health are not doing bagua.

[wenshu]

You have to take into consideration the influence of the NJSAC unified rules and how they shape the way MMA is trained.

People are going to train whatever techniques will help them score. The rules of MMA favor proficiency at certain techniques. While other rule sets favor others.

Like Sanjuro & Chops said no MMAer is going to get into a boxing or muay thai match and start dominating. No pure BJJ athlete is going to mop the floor at a Judo tournament and a Judo player will find much of his arsenal null and void in a Shuai Jiao rule set.

It is impossible to compare everything on purely linear criteria.

[Lucas]

It is impossible to compare everything on purely linear criteria.

unless your batsh!t crazy, then its easy!

[Drake]

I'll keep it simple because I also have lost patience and this is my last post here for a long while.

Buh-bye...

[Kung Fu God]

never heard of kj noons? okay there tough guy....



Wanna see a MMA guy's face go ghost white?
Tell him he's gotta go full thai rules with mma gloves against a legit muay thai guy.
Meanwhile, the muay thai guy's thinking "why do we gotta wear the gloves?".

I agree with this 100%

But why isn't your argument that MMA guys go ghost white when they have to face the Tru2Form champion of 2011?

[Kung Fu God]

no MMAer is going to get into a boxing or muay thai match and start dominating. No pure BJJ athlete is going to mop the floor at a Judo tournament and a Judo player will find much of his arsenal null and void in a Shuai Jiao rule set.
.

This is not true.

There are former boxing, kick boxing and Thai champions now competing in the UFC. It's common for a olympic wrestler to win at a no gi BJJ contest. Happens all the time.

[Kung Fu God]

MMA allows us to test them all at once, yes BUT it doesn't allow us to develop them to their highest level all at once.
No 5 year MMA guy will have the throwing skills of 5 years in Judo or the punching skill of 5 years in boxing, etc.
But then again MMA fighters/practioners are working on developing the most complete game they can for their chosen venue, just like every other sport combat guy.
Its fine to compare one combat sport with another BUT what exactly are you comparing and why?

I agree with you 100%

Nothing beats specialization.

I respect pure Judo guys who don't fight but mix it up on mats. I respect pure BJJers, boxers, etc.

I also highly respect the ability of Wushu players. What they do requires great skill, ability, determination..... it's not the same thing. It's not martial art. It's not combat sport.

I'll take it further. The sparring I witness at every TCMA tournament I've been to... I label it almost combat sport. It's sparring I did as a child in karate.

Sanda = 100% combat.

Most Kung Fu trained in the USA is not San Da oriented. So my "Why" is that I can't stand the stupidity I encounter here with people posting footage of a man on a roof as an example of Kung Fu's combat effectiveness. Really?

My answer to unrelated skill is Joel Tudor, BJJ black belt and champion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS9kTzCtZWo

[Drake]

Wow... that was a FAST return!

[Snipsky]

Wow... that was a FAST return!

what a liar. he said he wasn't gonna post here for a long time. yeahhhhhh right :rolleyes:

[wenshu]

This is not true.

There are former boxing, kick boxing and Thai champions now competing in the UFC. It's common for a olympic wrestler to win at a no gi BJJ contest. Happens all the time.

Um, read the post again. You're going in the wrong direction. Try and pay attention. Name one champion boxer who started in MMA before moving to straight Boxing and started winning belts? Muay Thai?

Judo guys clean up at BJJ tournaments all the time too. Cause BJJ comes from Judo and they have similar rule sets. That's the point. People train the skills that will net them the most points outside of a straight IPPON or submission and those skills are determined by the rule sets the competition operates under.

Like Muay Thai doesn't emphasize throws from the clinch because they don't score for throws and San Da doesn't emphasize knees because they get more points for successful throws. If they started scoring for throws in Muay Thai the clinch game will change real fast.

You have absolutely no concept of context at all.

You think everything is on this one to one comparison and it's not.

I knew I should have started a pool on how long you would actually stay away for.

[Drake]

I knew I should have started a pool on how long you would actually stay away for.

Impossible. Most of us hadn't even come back from the bathroom between his "departure" and "return".

And why make a fake account after being banned, only to leave after sneaking back in?

[Pork Chop]

I agree with this 100%

But why isn't your argument that MMA guys go ghost white when they have to face the Tru2Form champion of 2011?

Jumped on to address your original edit: "how come nobody shakes in their boots to fight a sanda, sambo guy?" and I see you changed it. Truth is, sanda/sanshou guys are starting to get a rep & get respect among the thai community in Thailand.

Tru2Form's barely what, a year old?
Granted, I think it's cr@p; but if they upped the contact level to at least that of kyokushin, some day it might not be bad.
I think lei tai's not that bad, and with a few tweaks it could be an awesome format; though I absolutely despise those face masks.

The way I look at it is this: either you're part of the problem or you're part of the solution.

I still appreciate all my first sifu did for me, I miss him. I appreciate everything everybody did for me coming up in traditional - even the guys who gave me a hard time.

I can either b!tch and moan about the state of kung fu, or I can seek out the nuggets of goodness, maybe even pitch in and help out my friends who didn't go the ring fighting route, but want an experienced eye to help them filter through their stuff.

The truth of the matter is that my training doesn't feel complete only focusing on the fighting techniques for the ring. I enjoy the process of development. I guess my approach is that of a martial artist as opposed to a fighter who hates to train and only wants to throw down. My first sifu instilled in me this desire to reach mastery in something. It doesn't matter whether that's a different way to create angles, a better way to read an opponent's intentions, a different way to generate power, a new combo, or even breathing & meditation techniques.
There really is a lot of good stuff out there and I truly enjoy seeing it.

[Syn7]

Why do people on web forums always pretend they are always picture perfect when they fight? :rolleyes:

Its was scrappy, a nice exchange, a few nice techniques here and there.

A few missed opportunities, so what...


In the heat of it, you do what you can do, when you can do it.

What heat? It was a dance, nothing more.

[Kung Fu God]

Name one champion boxer who started in MMA before moving to straight Boxing and started winning belts? Muay Thai?



Stephan Bonnar started with wrestling at 10, TKD at 13. Started training Gracie BJJ in 1999...... in 2001won the Ironheart Crown for boxing. In 2002 won the golden gloves.

Do you want more?

Unlike trying to find a UFC fighter claiming Kung Fu.... I have a HUGE list of fighters I can pull from.

Most pro fighters start as specialists in striking or grappling and then round out there skills . They're already at a black belt level or standout out competitor.

[Kung Fu God]

Truth is, sanda/sanshou guys are starting to get a rep & get respect among the thai community in Thailand. .

Oooh. I didn't know they were killing it in the Thailand scene.

Again. WHen you say San Da. That's one way of training. And as you stated, those training the San Da way often find their way to MMA because its the natural progression for a modern fighter. When you say Kung Fu, that's another way of training. That way leads to talking and dominating cooperating students.




Tru2Form's barely what, a year old?
Granted, I think it's cr@p; but if they upped the contact level to at least that of kyokushin, some day it might not be bad.
You have got to be smoking crack.




My first sifu instilled in me this desire to reach mastery in something. It doesn't matter whether that's a different way to create angles, a better way to read an opponent's intentions, a different way to generate power, a new combo, or even breathing & meditation techniques.
There really is a lot of good stuff out there and I truly enjoy seeing it.

That's beautiful. No arguments with that.

My only issue is the word martial artist.... its thrown around too easily. To make an art out of controlling violence requires a high level of familiarizaion with it. It requires real fighting.

My NO. 1 argument is that this is not stressed in TCMA as it is in other combat sports such as boxing, kick boxing, BJJ, JUdo. Those styles are experts with dealing in violence in there way. You mentioned angles, reading intention.... if it can't be applied against full resistance it is worthless as far as tools for the martial artist. They become ****tail party tricks. The "Hold me this way" demonstrations. And a whole class of people attracted to Shaw Brother Fu eat it up, because it gives them the impression without getting dirty.

Its a scam.

I take boxing.... the coaches all have pro fights. I take BJJ.... the coaches are all champions. I train MMA, the coaches and teamates competing, fighting.

What real life credentials do most of the sifu and training brothers here have? None!

[Yao Sing]

Here we go again. :eek::eek:

[hskwarrior]

Here we go again.

be careful....he may come to your door and hurt you. LOL

[Lee Chiang Po]

I'm going to show up at your door months from now and challenge you in front of your students and then come back on here and post the video of your fat ass ducking me. Or me hurting you severely.

Not saying you couldn't do that, but will say you will have to do a little better than that one video you posted of you getting whipped.

[wenshu]

Stephan Bonnar started with wrestling at 10, TKD at 13. Started training Gracie BJJ in 1999...... in 2001won the Ironheart Crown for boxing. In 2002 won the golden gloves.

Do you want more?

Unlike trying to find a UFC fighter claiming Kung Fu.... I have a HUGE list of fighters I can pull from.

Most pro fighters start as specialists in striking or grappling and then round out there skills . They're already at a black belt level or standout out competitor.

One guy who won some amateur comps who trained in wrestling? That's all you got?

Fact is there isn't a single fighter in the UFC who can stand against a professional Boxer or Muay Thai fighter.

Most pro fighters start out as a blah blah blah blah. . .

Thanks Captain Obvious.

[Gru Bianca]

One guy who won some amateur comps who trained in wrestling? That's all you got?

Fact is there isn't a single fighter in the UFC who can stand against a professional Boxer or Muay Thai fighter.

Most pro fighters start out as a blah blah blah blah. . .

Thanks Captain Obvious.

Since when are u under the impression that making sense works with him?:eek:

[Drake]

be careful....he may come to your door and hurt you. LOL

Just hang a heavy bag outside of your door. Its satanic powers will drive him away. :D

[SavvySavage]

One guy who won some amateur comps who trained in wrestling? That's all you got?

Fact is there isn't a single fighter in the UFC who can stand against a professional Boxer or Muay Thai fighter.

Most pro fighters start out as a blah blah blah blah. . .

Thanks Captain Obvious.

How many Thai fighters could just box with a pro boxer under boxing rules? How many Thai boxers can wrestle well with a division 1 wrestler or work the ground well against a bjj blackbelt?

The rules of the competition dictate the training regimen and skill set. MMA allows it all in the octagon which makes it fair for everyone.

[Kung Fu God]

One guy who won some amateur comps who trained in wrestling? That's all you got?

Fact is there isn't a single fighter in the UFC who can stand against a professional Boxer or Muay Thai fighter.



Oh, you want another.

UFC veteran Roli Delgado won his first pro Muay Thai fight last year.

I can keep listing MMA fighters who moonlight and win in boxing, Muay Thai, grappling, Judo...... they all are experts in one of those fields to begin with. That's how they made it to the UFC.

Generally, a serious martial artist pushes themselves. Wants to find limits and reach past them.... get past "the clastraphobia" of being ground and pounded. They learn to escape mount and side control. That's what initially brought me to BJJ.

They go from boxing to MMA. From Thai to MMA. The best progress upwards. SOme can't hang, and go back to their specialty.

SO that's two listed easily.

I'm still waiting for the 1 .... ONE..... UFC fighter that lists Kung FU TODAY!!!!!!!

That's why I got band. That's why I'm called an a$$hole. I point it out clean and clear...... Kung FU is fooling itself.

You try to attack me. I don't get flustered and defensive. I know I'm a kook.... but I still do my fighting. That's what training martial arts is.

Don't you see the irony of you demanding me to list MMA fighters who have fought pro boxers. You should be listing all the Kung Fu koodos but can't. Its resolved to small Ross-like venues of San Da. Of guys who essentially train Muay Thai..... and the couple of Kung FU legends apparently doing form and whipping a$$ in some Thailand backwater:)

[Kung Fu God]

Other MMAers with sanctioned boxing experience
Matt Phinney
Brian Johnson
BJ Penn
Quinton Jackson
Rashad Evans
Spencer Fisher
Marcus Davis
Chris Lytle
Pulver
Diaz
Monson
Frye
Din Thomas
Crocop
KJ Noons
Andrei Arlovski


James Toney, former boxing world champ.... LOST to Randy Couture in UFC 118. In round 1.
George St Pierre trained with Freddie Roach

I can go on and on and on. The fact that you don't realize most pro MMAers are at a high level of boxing explains a lot.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Oh, you want another.

UFC veteran Roli Delgado won his first pro Muay Thai fight last year.

I can keep listing MMA fighters who moonlight and win in boxing, Muay Thai, grappling, Judo...... they all are experts in one of those fields to begin with. That's how they made it to the UFC.

Generally, a serious martial artist pushes themselves. Wants to find limits and reach past them.... get past "the clastraphobia" of being ground and pounded. They learn to escape mount and side control. That's what initially brought me to BJJ.

They go from boxing to MMA. From Thai to MMA. The best progress upwards. SOme can't hang, and go back to their specialty.

SO that's two listed easily.

I'm still waiting for the 1 .... ONE..... UFC fighter that lists Kung FU TODAY!!!!!!!

That's why I got band. That's why I'm called an a$$hole. I point it out clean and clear...... Kung FU is fooling itself.

You try to attack me. I don't get flustered and defensive. I know I'm a kook.... but I still do my fighting. That's what training martial arts is.

Don't you see the irony of you demanding me to list MMA fighters who have fought pro boxers. You should be listing all the Kung Fu koodos but can't. Its resolved to small Ross-like venues of San Da. Of guys who essentially train Muay Thai..... and the couple of Kung FU legends apparently doing form and whipping a$$ in some Thailand backwater:)

I can't name a UFC fighter, but Strike Force has Cung Le. If you look at his signature moves, most of them are Chinese Long Fist.

Also, Art of War in China is drawing out all of the old school fight clubs as well. There is a LOT of authentically trained fighters there, who have done little more than supplement their base with BJJ and maybe changed over to the MT round kick.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are also a couple of MT fighters that became world champs in Boxing or rated in the top 5.

One can ALWAYS transition from a specialized sport to MMA and vice-versa, that is pretty obvious and shouldn't really be up for debate.
To the degree that one is effective in said transition, that is another thing.
I believe it is a matter of WHAT one is tranistion to.
A MMA guy who is a natural striker will transition well into MT or boxing and not as well into wrestling or judo and vice-versa of course.
Common sense.

[Kung Fu God]

I can't name a UFC fighter, but Strike Force has Cung Le. If you look at his signature moves, most of them are Chinese Long Fist.

Cung Lee is a great fighter. I enjoyed watching him fight in the K-1 days. Spectacular.

With that said, he hasn't been a stand out in MMA. Even has been rumored to pay off fighters. And now makes movies.

The fact that a fighter of his level can't make it in the UFC is a testament to the skill level there. I'm not saying Kung Fu needs to have a UFC fighter. Kung Fu needs to recognize how stale it has become in relation to the rest of combat arts.


Art of War in China is drawing out all of the old school fight clubs as well. There is a LOT of authentically trained fighters there, who have done little more than supplement their base with BJJ and maybe changed over to the MT round kick.

Just a little supplement of an entire new style. Change one molecule, one strand of DNA and its something else already.

You can't compete in San Da, Muay Thai, boxing, Judo or MMA training Kung Fu the way 90% of Kung Fu players train. You need boxing gloves, mouth piece and mats. You need to train live always. With varying degrees of intensity. If you're not training that way, you cant compete with guys who are.

hkwarriors guys can hit the foam noodle for 20 years and do 2 man drills leaving each others attacking limbs free forever.... that's all they'll be doing.

Kung Fu needs to change. It starts with getting tougher. Making the weak strong or make the weak quit. You dumb a style down for tuition, drag students out with forms and belts, and you have what you have now..... no intelligent response or excuse for the massive failure to produce fighters of that level.

[wenshu]

Oh, you want another.

UFC veteran Roli Delgado won his first pro Muay Thai fight last year.

I can keep listing MMA fighters who moonlight and win in boxing, Muay Thai, grappling, Judo...... they all are experts in one of those fields to begin with. That's how they made it to the UFC.

Generally, a serious martial artist pushes themselves. Wants to find limits and reach past them.... get past "the clastraphobia" of being ground and pounded. They learn to escape mount and side control. That's what initially brought me to BJJ.

They go from boxing to MMA. From Thai to MMA. The best progress upwards. SOme can't hang, and go back to their specialty.

SO that's two listed easily.



First one was an amateur who has been busted for steroid use. The second one is a fluke.

Where are all the UFC fighters? You don't even see them on professional undercards.

Again, there is no fighter who started in MMA that can hang with championship Boxers or Muay Thai.

I don't think you understand how this works.

[Kung Fu God]

.

Again, there is no fighter who started in MMA that can hang with championship Boxers or Muay Thai.



Randy Couture beat heavy weight champ James Tony in round 1.

[wenshu]

How was that a boxing match?

Toney is an overweight washed up former champ who went to UFC after he couldn't cut it in boxing anymore. What does that tell you?

There is no fighter who started in MMA that can hang with championship Boxers or Muay Thai.

[wiz cool c]

So, based on your insecurities here, I take it you are the bad Bagua kid in the video?

nope this is me with my bagua instructor Zhang Sheng Li in Beijing

[SavvySavage]

nope this is me with my bagua instructor Zhang Sheng Li in Beijing,and with Zhou Quan Sheng.a living legend in Beijing shuai jiao,who was my teacher for several years,and my good friend a coach yao hung gong,you can read his interview on the front page of this website[the peoples champ} he even mentions me in the article.and my teacher jin lei min here in shenzhen.

When you say your teacher can use ba gua in a fight how did he do that? Did you see him sparring, defending himself against a vagrant, or does he do partner drills ferociously? I'm just trying to understand how you guage whether or not someone can use their ba gua.

[SavvySavage]

Cung Lee doesn't count. He is featured on a program about fighting martial arts. One half of the DVD is Japanese arts where they are hitting each other, sparring, etc. the other half features kung fu and this is the worst part of the DVD. Most of what they show is the shaolin monks jogging and various Kung fu styles but only demonstrating forms. The only fighting part of the Kung fu was about Cung Lee and a rematch with a guy he beat once. Cung talks about how he started out in traditional kung fu but didn't like the lack of fighting in it. He wanted to learn to fight so he had to leave tcma to do San shao.

It was stated that most of his techniques are from long fist. This is a big issue I have with kung fu. Just because a technique can be extrapolated from a form doesn't mean the style contains it. How many long fist guys can do what Cung can do. Would Cung be as good if he had stayed with tcma? Probably not.

The wing chun bil form has a move at the end where you put your palms together, bend over, and swing your arms between your legs. Does this mean wing chun has shoulder throw or hip throw? How many wing chunners stray from chi sao to practIce the wc hip throw? There is no wc hip throw becaUse wc doesn't train it...even though it can be seen in a form.

[wiz cool c]

When you say your teacher can use ba gua in a fight how did he do that? Did you see him sparring, defending himself against a vagrant, or does he do partner drills ferociously? I'm just trying to understand how you guage whether or not someone can use their ba gua.

where did i say that?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Cung Lee doesn't count. He is featured on a program about fighting martial arts. One half of the DVD is Japanese arts where they are hitting each other, sparring, etc. the other half features kung fu and this is the worst part of the DVD. Most of what they show is the shaolin monks jogging and various Kung fu styles but only demonstrating forms. The only fighting part of the Kung fu was about Cung Lee and a rematch with a guy he beat once. Cung talks about how he started out in traditional kung fu but didn't like the lack of fighting in it. He wanted to learn to fight so he had to leave tcma to do San shao.

It was stated that most of his techniques are from long fist. This is a big issue I have with kung fu. Just because a technique can be extrapolated from a form doesn't mean the style contains it. How many long fist guys can do what Cung can do. Would Cung be as good if he had stayed with tcma? Probably not.

The wing chun bil form has a move at the end where you put your palms together, bend over, and swing your arms between your legs. Does this mean wing chun has shoulder throw or hip throw? How many wing chunners stray from chi sao to practIce the wc hip throw? There is no wc hip throw becaUse wc doesn't train it...even though it can be seen in a form.

Based on my experience with the Indo arts, I think a lot of Chinese lines are just the container. The content however, survives just fine elsewhere.

What Cung Le does, IS real Chinese Kung Fu (except for the MT kick). San Shou IS real Kung Fu for the most part. It's the fighting part of Long Fist from what I can see.

Gloves and Gear aside, It can be argued that San Shou/San Da is closer to authentic, Old School Kung Fu, than most so called traditional schools. Shuia Jiao falls into this camp as well.

[SavvySavage]

How was that a boxing match?

Toney is an overweight washed up former champ who went to UFC after he couldn't cut it in boxing anymore. What does that tell you?

There is no fighter who started in MMA that can hang with championship Boxers or Muay Thai.

It showed that striking only may not be enough. I saw a guy in Prode just try to do takedowns. That was his signature. No striking at all. He got a knee right to the face while attempting a takedown and was knocked out instantly. Grappling alone isn't enough either.


A good fight would be Mayweather and Anderson Silva. They'd duck each other, while hyping the fight for months going into years. We'd be so entertained that we'd forget they they never actually fought.

[SavvySavage]

where did i say that?

My bad. I guess you didn't say that.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

nope this is me with my bagua instructor Zhang Sheng Li in Beijing

Notice how your teacher is on the predatory angle, and you are in the position of prey? There is a key to the puzzle right there.

[wiz cool c]

i'm not saying he can or can't,but i have been involved in bagua for about maybe 7 years,martial arts maybe close to 30,and to be honestly i haven't seen a whole lot of proof that bagua works either in sparring or competition, but one thing i can say is, bagua works well in real fights, i can think of at least 4 different occasions i used the techniques in real fights ,and they worked well

[SavvySavage]

i'm not saying he can or can't,but i have been involved in bagua for about maybe 7 years,martial arts maybe close to 30,and to be honestly i haven't seen a whole lot of proof that bagua works either in sparring or competition, but one thing i can say is, bagua works well in real fights, i can think of at least 4 different occasions i used the techniques in real fights ,and they worked well

And here comes the style conundrum. All styles have kicks right? There is a stomping kick in ba gua in their crane stepping drills. Stomping kicks are in all styles. If I stomp kick a guy tryin to rob me was I doing ba gua or tkd or hung gar? Depending on the style of the person in the fight they will claim they used x style.

I don't believe in any of this using this style or that style in a fight.

[Kung Fu God]

It can be argued that San Shou/San Da is closer to authentic, Old School Kung Fu, than most so called traditional schools..

Yes. Because San Shou/San Da are based on dominating violent encounters, it's about combat, which is what martial arts is 100% about (the training of that provides side benefits of self realization, etc). What "so called traditional schools" are about is not unlike what civil war renditions are about. Playing make believe (see photo above of silk pajamas and unrealistic fighting posture)

[ShaolinDan]

I miss the arguments about whether or not marijuana is good for your MA or not...

[Pork Chop]

There are also a couple of MT fighters that became world champs in Boxing or rated in the top 5.

One can ALWAYS transition from a specialized sport to MMA and vice-versa, that is pretty obvious and shouldn't really be up for debate.
To the degree that one is effective in said transition, that is another thing.
I believe it is a matter of WHAT one is tranistion to.
A MMA guy who is a natural striker will transition well into MT or boxing and not as well into wrestling or judo and vice-versa of course.
Common sense.

The names you're looking for are:
Samart Payakaroon, Somluck Kamsing, and Khaosai Galaxy.
Otherwise, I agree with you.

The guys who transition into other sports have an aptitude and a lot of specialized training in the sport they transition to (whether before or after they started mma training).

A better example would be guys like Forest Griffen or Rich Franklin - guys that never really specialized, they were "mma" from day one. Those guys have decent stand up for mma, but would get tooled in any striking sport.

I'm not really here to discuss the merits of mma versus other striking sports. It's almost an impossible argument to make, because mma wouldn't be where it is if it didn't borrow so much from those other sports (just look how many mma guys have trained with Freddie Roach - boxing's premier trainer).

My point was that I'm not scared to throw down with mma folks under my own rule set and just because I don't like their rule set doesn't make what I do any less valid - especially when they come to people from my sport(s) for training.


You can't compete in San Da, Muay Thai, boxing, Judo or MMA training Kung Fu the way 90% of Kung Fu players train. You need boxing gloves, mouth piece and mats. You need to train live always. With varying degrees of intensity. If you're not training that way, you cant compete with guys who are.

I'm curious where you get this 90% number.
I no longer think that's the case.
The popularity of mma is making a lot of teachers realize that they need train in ways to deal with people who watch events and "trane ufc."
I don't know that I've ever been to a kung fu school that didn't at least have mats and a heavy bag; where everyone didn't have their own sparring gear (real stuff not the foam-dipped garbage).
Yes, there are a lot of people who work out in the park; but I doubt that's the sum-total of their training.

[Pork Chop]

I miss the arguments about whether or not marijuana is good for your MA or not...

Yeah, I'm sorry we hijacked this thread.

Back to the original intent of this thread (ie bagua); looking at that pic above, I can't help but think that the application should be at closer range. Imagine the left hand with an overhook, grabbing under the opponent's tricep, the right hand behind the neck pushing the head down, while the left leg stomps the side of the opponent's knee. Voila, you've got dirty fighting in the clinch.

As far as the clip - the bagua guy seemed to be at a severe size disadvantage. He could've had a lot of those throws, but his execution wasn't very good - ie twisting without breaking balance. Lateral movement is a pain in the a$$ to deal with. Like everyone else, I don't like crossing the legs either, but if you're way out of range, it's not as bad. My honest opinion is that there are better, faster forms of footwork than traditional circle walking - most fighters actually do shuffle in circles, it's intrinsic to boxing footwork. I think if they focused more on the lateral/circular movement-principle of the style instead of getting caught up so much on the expression of that specific walk they might have more success. Circular movement can be vulnerable to people who lead you and throw where they know you will be, crossing the legs is vulnerable to straight line attacks, so it would seem common sense to want to limit the vulnerabilities. Just my observations though, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Kung Fu God]

My point was that I'm not scared to throw down with mma folks under my own rule set and just because I don't like their rule set doesn't make what I do any less valid - especially when they come to people from my sport(s) for training. .

Awesome. As it should be for any series practicing, dedicated martial artist still in that peak age of 22-40.



I'm curious where you get this 90% number.
.

It's probably closer to 98%

Take all the members here. Sifus and students... and divide it by the number of people who have participated in a state sanctioned kick boxing, San Da or MMA event.

[David Jamieson]

Bye Ray.

Please cool off and don't come back until you have.