Ip Man and his Code of Conduct

[LoneTiger108]

I just thought that this may be a good time to post this here considering the amount of constant rule breaking that seems to be happening in our wide Wing Chun circle these days...

I would also like to hear from anyone who has more or different sets of Mo Duk, because I have and I understand that this early piece was specifically used by Ip Man to promote his public school in Hong Kong, and it was shared with the majority of his students who we have traces of today. A more Traditional version exists FME.

I have no interest in hearing from anyone who couldn't give a sh!t about this sorth of thing, so I'm not expecting too many responses! ;)

Here's an example from Sifu Samuel Kwoks site

http://www.kwokwingchun.co.uk/assets/2009/3/12/CodeofConduct.jpg

And here is the same example from Sifu Augustine Fong

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/401263_2941822978815_1058417759_2458665_276165427_ n.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ideals strived for are not always ideal achieved.
For some reason WC tends to attract the " I am right you are wrong because My Sifu said so" crowd.
While almost every MA has its "code of conduct", we typically can count on "one hand" those that exemplifiy it.
That is why they "stick out".

[WingChunABQ]

For some reason WC tends to attract the " I am right you are wrong because My Sifu said so" crowd.

Yeah, it's weird. It's like debating religion or something.

Frankly I think a lot of the bickering is facepalm-worthy.

[LoneTiger108]

Well, what I am saying is that "Ip Man said THIS!" :D

If you have anything more to add to the conversation, please do, but why go over old ground and start all the bickering in the first place??

And Sanjuro!! ****!! I should close this thread straight away because you have posted here lol! If you aint a Wing Chun student, what do you care??? ;) The Hung Gar you so readily promote on the forum has it's fair share of 'face-palm' moments too wouldn't you say??

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, what I am saying is that "Ip Man said THIS!" :D

If you have anything more to add to the conversation, please do, but why go over old ground and start all the bickering in the first place??

And Sanjuro!! ****!! I should close this thread straight away because you have posted here lol! If you aint a Wing Chun student, what do you care??? ;) The Hung Gar you so readily promote on the forum has it's fair share of 'face-palm' moments too wouldn't you say??

I put in my time in WC, as you know but you are correct, Hung Ga has its moments of "Icon nutriding".
Ip Man's code of conduct is nothing different than many others but the fact that He felt that one was needed in WC does, perhaps, speak to the issues that WC has and continues to have.
I think that if people did truly follow this code ( or any other) that there would be more CIVIL discussions but there still would be discussions and debate and diagreements.
Maybe there would be a more "live and let live" attitude would would be great.
Personally I don't see WHY WC guys are so anal retentive about their art, truly.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1160370]I put in my time in WC, as you know but you are correct, Hung Ga has its moments of "Icon nutriding".
Ip Man's code of conduct is nothing different than many others but the fact that He felt that one was needed in WC does, perhaps, speak to the issues that WC has and continues to have.
I think that if people did truly follow this code ( or any other) that there would be more CIVIL discussions but there still would be discussions and debate and diagreements.
Maybe there would be a more "live and let live" attitude would would be great.
Personally I don't see WHY WC guys are so anal retentive about their art, truly.[/QUOTE
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most good wc guys are not anal retentive. Internet forums give a greatly distorted view of reality.
Most good wc guys are NOT participants on this forum.

A code of conduct is a normative ideal for a group.There is always a gap between an ideal and achievement- such as freedom of speech and being arrested for exercising it or getting punched in the mouth for engaging in it.


Even internet wc disagreements are mild compared to many dog breed specific chat lists

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1160370]I put in my time in WC, as you know but you are correct, Hung Ga has its moments of "Icon nutriding".
Ip Man's code of conduct is nothing different than many others but the fact that He felt that one was needed in WC does, perhaps, speak to the issues that WC has and continues to have.
I think that if people did truly follow this code ( or any other) that there would be more CIVIL discussions but there still would be discussions and debate and diagreements.
Maybe there would be a more "live and let live" attitude would would be great.
Personally I don't see WHY WC guys are so anal retentive about their art, truly.[/QUOTE
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most good wc guys are not anal retentive. Internet forums give a greatly distorted view of reality.
Most good wc guys are NOT participants on this forum.

A code of conduct is a normative ideal for a group.There is always a gap between an ideal and achievement- such as freedom of speech and being arrested for exercising it or getting punched in the mouth for engaging in it.


Even internet wc disagreements are mild compared to many dog breed specific chat lists

joy chaudhuri

You are probably right Joy and yes, internet forums do tend to give a distorted view of reality.
That said, why DO we have such issues CONSISTENTLY on the WC forum?

[LoneTiger108]

Ip Man's code of conduct is nothing different than many others but the fact that He felt that one was needed in WC does, perhaps, speak to the issues that WC has and continues to have.

Now that, imo, is a very good point.

I've heard a few variations on why this specific code was used, and it wasn't so much a 'Club Code' it was the rules for his own Seniors to abide by and pass on. I think this was easy to manage whilst he was alive, but once gone it just went crazy because brother was competing against brother. Rule No. 3!

After looking into older rule sets, this one particularly speaks in Confician tones, of which Ip Man, and especially his eldest son Ip Chun, were brought up on. Prior to the Revolution Martial Arts was a little more Buddhist/Taoist in nature and so you may have had a rule to 'Remove' rather than 'Participate' in Society. Nowadays, I think most arts out there are so much more open but still maintain and preserve these older teachings fme.

I have always believed that the Wing Chun student who couldn't care less for cultural learning (Man Fa) will only ever grasp the basic external structure of Martial Arts. The commercial engine as it is today. Those who are searching for more fulfillment from their years dedication tend to, at some point, look deeper into the language for starters and this is a very good starting point. Wouldn't you agree?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now that, imo, is a very good point.

I've heard a few variations on why this specific code was used, and it wasn't so much a 'Club Code' it was the rules for his own Seniors to abide by and pass on. I think this was easy to manage whilst he was alive, but once gone it just went crazy because brother was competing against brother. Rule No. 3!

After looking into older rule sets, this one particularly speaks in Confician tones, of which Ip Man, and especially his eldest son Ip Chun, were brought up on. Prior to the Revolution Martial Arts was a little more Buddhist/Taoist in nature and so you may have had a rule to 'Remove' rather than 'Participate' in Society. Nowadays, I think most arts out there are so much more open but still maintain and preserve these older teachings fme.

I have always believed that the Wing Chun student who couldn't care less for cultural learning (Man Fa) will only ever grasp the basic external structure of Martial Arts. The commercial engine as it is today. Those who are searching for more fulfillment from their years dedication tend to, at some point, look deeper into the language for starters and this is a very good starting point. Wouldn't you agree?
Have you read the works of Brian Kennedy and others in regards to how MA were before the cultural revolution in China?
While it is fanciful to believe the stories of MA codes and acts of valour in the pre- 20th century China, historical records don't really show that.
Most MA that we h ave now were "carried along" in the arms of bodyguards and fighters, not "scholars" or people of high "moral code" and most certainly not ( typically) by "warrior monks" of high moral fiber.
Stories that are passed down don't always tell the history.

The more MA history I study that more I realize that the true MA of the past had more in common with Mike Tyson than Qwai Chan Cain.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1160380]

You are probably right Joy and yes, internet forums do tend to give a distorted view of reality.
That said, why DO we have such issues CONSISTENTLY on the WC forum?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 possible explanations.

1. Discussion without sufficient moderation often become noise.
2. There is difference between anarchy and free speech. The latter includes listening.
3. The term lineage has lost it's traditional CMA meaning. Now i can put myself in the WSL
(substitute others) lineage by attending a few classes and seminars and engage in lineage wars.
4. Non wc folks expecting entertainment, anonymous key boarders, the perceived power of being behind a key board and not being held responsible,
5. Old shotokan had some quality control- now withered. The money making ability of TKD is based on degrees of silence among teachers who are not always friends..They laugh on the way to the bank.
6. Wing chun has poor quality control. Anyone can just use words like wc or whatever and engage in wc discussions....xyz, red flag, black flag, some mainland latecomers, non seamless synthesizers--you name it, Alice in wonderland.Wing chun IMO needs to shrink- not expand.
7. hyperactive keyboarders with itchy fingers jumping in on where there is motion.
8.egos and mad hatters.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Have you read the works of Brian Kennedy and others in regards to how MA were before the cultural revolution in China?

Yes I'm sure I have read that one, but my studies went more into Buddhist and Taoist traditions to be fair.


Stories that are passed down don't always tell the history.

The more MA history I study that more I realize that the true MA of the past had more in common with Mike Tyson than Qwai Chan Cain.

I kinda of agree with you here, but I like the saying 'A Master is not born, he/she is made'. This does not apply to fighters imo because I believe you are born with that instinct, or not. Fight or flight and all that.

What about your hung Gar Code of Conduct?? Have you an example of that for us to compare?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes I'm sure I have read that one, but my studies went more into Buddhist and Taoist traditions to be fair.



I kinda of agree with you here, but I like the saying 'A Master is not born, he/she is made'. This does not apply to fighters imo because I believe you are born with that instinct, or not. Fight or flight and all that.

What about your hung Gar Code of Conduct?? Have you an example of that for us to compare?

All MA systems have a code of conduct, even the western ones ( typically based on the code of chivalry).
Many of the codes are "school specific" of course but they all share common elements.
The Jing Wu is an example.

The core has always been to be righteous to each other ( brothers in the system) to not pray on but protect the weak.
To be honest and not quarrelsome
DO not lie or cheat or mislead because these are signs of weakness.
To not being shame and dishonur to our MA by behaviour or by fighting with it without permission or to use it to hurt others.
Etc, etc.

[WingChunABQ]

Have you read the works of Brian Kennedy and others in regards to how MA were before the cultural revolution in China?

This sounds interesting. Which works are these?

[sanjuro_ronin]

This sounds interesting. Which works are these?

Brian has two:
http://www.amazon.com/Brian-Kennedy/e/B001K8O6X8/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_9?qid=1330454622&sr=8-9

This one is also very good in regards to Shaolin:
The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar (Jan 2008)

[WingChunABQ]

Awesome! Thanks!

[couch]

Well...I'm terribly happy that I'm so far removed from Ip Man it's not funny - AND I live in North America. I'm off the hook then. :D Back to my heavy bag and sprints...

[anerlich]

If you need a list of rules from a dead guy (be it 39 or 2012 years ago) to tell you how to behave, IMO you should be prohibited from reproducing.


I have always believed that the Wing Chun student who couldn't care less for cultural learning (Man Fa) will only ever grasp the basic external structure of Martial Arts. The commercial engine as it is today. Those who are searching for more fulfillment from their years dedication tend to, at some point, look deeper into the language for starters and this is a very good starting point. Wouldn't you agree?

No.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you need a list of rules from a dead guy (be it 39 or 2012 years ago) to tell you how to behave, IMO you should be prohibited from reproducing.



No.

I think you are being to harsh.
I don't think anyone is suggesting you NEED a list of rules from a dead guy, especially since we already have that list in one for or another ( though some could argue that knowing the history of that list is important).
And I disagree that we can't get anything from the history of our chose art.
EX:
Some claiming to be tradionalist will say this and that about a system and how it should be.
Yet to examine that history of said system shows that was NOT how it was nor how it should be.
And example of that is a group claiming to be tradtionalists and saying that one should NOT test the system against other systems while the very history of that system shows that was how it was developed and continued to evolve.

[GlennR]

I just thought that this may be a good time to post this here considering the amount of constant rule breaking that seems to be happening in our wide Wing Chun circle these days...

I would also like to hear from anyone who has more or different sets of Mo Duk, because I have and I understand that this early piece was specifically used by Ip Man to promote his public school in Hong Kong, and it was shared with the majority of his students who we have traces of today. A more Traditional version exists FME.

I have no interest in hearing from anyone who couldn't give a sh!t about this sorth of thing, so I'm not expecting too many responses! ;)

Here's an example from Sifu Samuel Kwoks site

http://www.kwokwingchun.co.uk/assets/2009/3/12/CodeofConduct.jpg

And here is the same example from Sifu Augustine Fong

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/401263_2941822978815_1058417759_2458665_276165427_ n.jpg

This is the part of the MA's that i just dont get.

Id suggest all of the above things are basic attributes of any "good" person, regardless of wether they do MA's or not.

Im currently reading Richard Dawkin's "the God Delusion" and he devotes a large section of his book to the (supposed) relationship with religion and correct moral behaviour. He basically espouses that you dont have to be part of any religion to be morally sound.... id agree with him.

Id use his argument to dispute the worth of the above "codes".

[anerlich]

And I disagree that we can't get anything from the history of our chose art.

I'm not suggesting that.

I am highly sceptical of the notion that immersing oneself uncritically in "culture" and "language" will necessarily make you a better martial artist, fighter, or human being.

My points of reference are BJJ (which shows an art can be removed from its cultural and linguistic context and thrive, and perhaps even progress faster thanks to the liberation from cultural shackles), and Matt Thornton's writings on TMA's (the downside of secrets, special terminology, etc.).

Some may mention the stereotypical MMA meathead, but IMO unprejudiced observations will show that TMAs have at least as many psychos and sociopaths, and certainly more new age weirdness. The (often inaccurate and self-serving) "history" and "cultural heritage" of TMA's arguably abet rather than prevent such tendencies.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the part of the MA's that i just dont get.

Id suggest all of the above things are basic attributes of any "good" person, regardless of wether they do MA's or not.

Im currently reading Richard Dawkin's "the God Delusion" and he devotes a large section of his book to the (supposed) relationship with religion and correct moral behaviour. He basically espouses that you dont have to be part of any religion to be morally sound.... id agree with him.

Id use his argument to dispute the worth of the above "codes".

When the codes have become part of the "norm" then no, one doesn't need to be a part of where they MAY h ave come from, Dawkins is quite correct in that regard.
Of course the grand "sez who?" may have something to say about that.
That Ip Man, like others, saw a NEED to formalize these things that should be "second nature" shows that they are not as second nature as they shoudl be or that we think they are.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not suggesting that.

I am highly sceptical of the notion that immersing oneself uncritically in "culture" and "language" will necessarily make you a better martial artist, fighter, or human being.

My points of reference are BJJ (which shows an art can be removed from its cultural and linguistic context and thrive, and perhaps even progress more thanks to the liberation from cultural shackles), and Matt Thornton's writings on TMA's (the downside of secrets, special terminology, etc.).

Some may mention the stereotypical MMA meathead, but IMO unprejudiced observations will show that TMAs have at least as many psychos and sociopaths. The history and "cultural heritage" of TMA's arguably abet rather than prevent such tendencies.

I agree and to a certain point we must realize that culture and language of a TMA may even the the source of the problems in that MA.

[GlennR]

That Ip Man, like others, saw a NEED to formalize these things that should be "second nature" shows that they are not as second nature as they shoudl be or that we think they are.

But did he say that? Spencer has thrown up a couple of codes from two other people, im yet to be convinced IM had a written code.

And even if they arent second nature, what gives a martial arts instructor the right to impose his values on someone else?

[sanjuro_ronin]

But did he say that? Spencer has thrown up a couple of codes from two other people, im yet to be convinced IM had a written code.

And even if they arent second nature, what gives a martial arts instructor the right to impose his values on someone else?

A MA instructor has every right to impose his values on any person that is willing to be trained by him, that is his right.
Just as it is the students to tell him where to go and leave.

[GlennR]

A MA instructor has every right to impose his values on any person that is willing to be trained by him, that is his right.
Just as it is the students to tell him where to go and leave.

Fair enough to a degree, if the guy is a knob tell him to leave, if the instructors a knob dont train with him.

Thats the reality in any relationship, be it work, family or friends.

I have my own business with 12 people working for me, should i put up a set of values similar to the codes Spencer put up?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fair enough to a degree, if the guy is a knob tell him to leave, if the instructors a knob dont train with him.

Thats the reality in any relationship, be it work, family or friends.

I have my own business with 12 people working for me, should i put up a set of values similar to the codes Spencer put up?

Why not? you certainly CAN do that.
Whether it will work for you is another matter.
lets not forget that lawyers are suppose to follow a code of ethics.
Enough said.

[GlennR]

Why not? you certainly CAN do that.
Whether it will work for you is another matter.
lets not forget that lawyers are suppose to follow a code of ethics.
Enough said.

Yes i COULD try that, i could also turn up naked to work and both would go down the same with my staff.

The code of ethics in regards to Lawyers (and doctors) would be there to ensure legal ramifications to clientele (and i guess the practitioner) in the case of something going wrong. I dont see the connection to what we are talking about.

Anyway, seems we agree to disagree

[anerlich]

I agree and to a certain point we must realize that culture and language of a TMA may even the the source of the problems in that MA.

I concur.

I don't necessarily have a problem with a set of rules in an MA school. My own BJJ instructor has what I regard as quite a good one for his schools. A school IMO lives or dies on its mat culture.

It's passing down dogma uncritically from a historical figure, and assuming that said dogma's association or antiquity necessarily provides it with greater gravitas, that I have problems with.

Yip Man was an Wing Chun expert. His reputation as moral philosopher or ethicist is unremarkable.

[Vajramusti]

I concur.

I don't necessarily have a problem with a set of rules in an MA school. My own BJJ instructor has what I regard as quite a good one for his schools. A school IMO lives or dies on its mat culture.

It's passing down dogma uncritically from a historical figure, and assuming that said dogma's association or antiquity necessarily provides it with greater gravitas, that I have problems with.

Yip Man was an Wing Chun expert. His reputation as moral philosopher or ethicist is unremarkable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ip Man's statement hangs in my school: Two caligraphies of Ip Man's advice- one by my sifu and another one done by a Chinese student of mine. None of my teachers- mentors in philosophy, gurus in yoga, guides in the academic world, high school. college and competitive boxing coaches , martial arts teachers and sihings, political heroes including Jefferson were perfect. Ip Man was not a perfect human being.But in my evolution I didn't look for perfect human beings.Before reading Nietzsche.
I knew that the perfect was the enemy of the good. I was interested in knowledge and was grateful when directly or indirectly good knowledge was shared.I debated most of my teachers but was grateful for the knowledge that was shared.
Honoring one's teachers and gratitude are pretty good virtues...in my books.

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Honoring one's teachers and gratitude are pretty good virtues...in my books.

Agree.

Not sure that blind allegiance to a set of rules allegedly set by my teacher's teacher's teacher is required to do that.

For those claiming adherence to Buddhist or Taoist traditions, IMO neither is about allegiance to dogma but rather the opposite.

[Vajramusti]

This is the part of the MA's that i just dont get.

Id suggest all of the above things are basic attributes of any "good" person, regardless of wether they do MA's or not.

Im currently reading Richard Dawkin's "the God Delusion" and he devotes a large section of his book to the (supposed) relationship with religion and correct moral behaviour. He basically espouses that you dont have to be part of any religion to be morally sound.... id agree with him.

Id use his argument to dispute the worth of the above "codes".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posting a list of sayings has little to do with religion. BTW not beinga theist or anti theist,
I don't pay much attention to Dawkins.

joy chaudhuri

[Wayfaring]

I wonder where hanging out in an opium den in a blue fog fits into Ip Man's code of conduct.

[GlennR]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posting a list of sayings has little to do with religion. BTW not beinga theist or anti theist,
I don't pay much attention to Dawkins.

joy chaudhuri

Hardly sayings Joy, they're ways to lead your life.

Ten commandments ring a bell?

[k gledhill]

I wonder where hanging out in an opium den in a blue fog fits into Ip Man's code of conduct.

Throat cancer is very painful, I imagine, it killed him...perhaps the opium lessened his misery.

[Wayfaring]

Throat cancer is very painful, I imagine, it killed him...perhaps the opium lessened his misery.

While that is a plausible explanation, and not one that I would criticize, it doesn't seem to hold up to the history involved. His addiction was claimed to be over many years beyond his later years cancer, and also could very easily be the cause of the throat cancer from consistent smoking seeing medical statistics of ENT cancer.

But it is an explanation that more cult-like followers would easily embrace...

[jesper]

Fair enough to a degree, if the guy is a knob tell him to leave, if the instructors a knob dont train with him.

Thats the reality in any relationship, be it work, family or friends.

I have my own business with 12 people working for me, should i put up a set of values similar to the codes Spencer put up?

It may not be written down, but you do have a set of codes for your those working for you.
Even when selecting new workers you will look for people fitting into your code.

[LoneTiger108]

Not sure that blind allegiance to a set of rules allegedly set by my teacher's teacher's teacher is required to do that.

Y'know what I find interesting about this post? You presume that I followed my Sifu blindly or something? That we didn't debate, share ideals and even argue bitterly about values, ethics and such like!!??

If you would only try to reassess what you have pre-judged about my personal history with my teacher, you may find that I'm not as blind as you imagine.

I just happen to be the only student of his, like ever, to reveal such things. That's all. And I do so with his full support now, unlike before when we first promoted his methods back in 1994. It was only after 1997 that he decidied to go public really.

Besides, there are no 'alleged' things here. I am giving you 'facts'. I speak as truthfully as I'm able here (most of the time!! lol!) and yet I still feel that you hold that against me for some reason?

Nevermind. We all have our ways to train and teach Martial Arts. Each to their own and all that jazz...

[LoneTiger108]

Some good posts and opinions here and it is quite interesting to hear people compare this simple list to dogma of a Religion. I mean, c'mon guys!! If anything it is just something that has been passed by Ip Man that he considered important. Now you can think about that for as much or as little time as you like, the fact is it happened.

I find comfort in knowing that out of all the Kuit that exists, among all the variations of technical ability and personal interprestaion of Wing Chun that exist, THIS piece is universal to ALL of Ip Mans eldest and closest students.

If, for whatever reason, you have no desire to know it or couldn't care less for such things then that's your choice. I'm only offering an opinion, and that is I find this specific code is generally what I have witnessed among the Wing Chun practitioners I have met in the UK. They all have good virtues and want to help eachother improve. I only wish this would be more apparent here, but we can't have everything eh?! ;)

And if you can't be bothered with something like this, you will have no time for a Curriculum like this http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1160414&postcount=1

I guess I fit into that minority of people who like the language and culture of China, well the Cantonese Martial Artist at least lol!!!

[Vajramusti]

Hardly sayings Joy, they're ways to lead your life.

Ten commandments ring a bell?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having different sayings in a poetic form is common in Chinese martial culture.
Without a context meanings can be misunderstood.

The ten commandments is a tribal code- not mine!!

joy

[Vajramusti]

I wonder where hanging out in an opium den in a blue fog fits into Ip Man's code of conduct.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pointless sarcasm. Ip Man had his flaws.
Members of a relatively well to do class of Chinese people were drawn into opium houses and culture ---negative effects of western imperialism- the opium wars and the required selling of opium...the Brits shipped it from my hometown Calcutta to Canton regularly. Not just IM but YKS and others.
US Tobacco companies even now do quite a job selling tobacco in Asia--sans the attempt at restrictions in the US.

I don't engage in pointless sarcasm about lineage ancestors in non IM lineages or other IM lineages..

Thus, I also enjoy Coleridge's poetry without dwelling on his personal habits.

joy chaudhuri

[Jake104]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pointless sarcasm. Ip Man had his flaws.
Members of a relatively well to do class of Chinese people were drawn into opium houses and culture ---negative effects of western imperialism- the opium wars and the required selling of opium...the Brits shipped it from my hometown Calcutta to Canton regularly. Not just IM but YKS and others.
US Tobacco companies even now do quite a job selling tobacco in Asia--sans the attempt at restrictions in the US.

I don't engage in pointless sarcasm about lineage ancestors in non IM lineages or other IM lineages..

Thus, I also enjoy Coleridge's poetry without dwelling on his personal habits.

joy chaudhuri

Spoken like a true Marxist/Communist/Socialist:rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

Spoken like a true Marxist/Communist/Socialist:rolleyes:
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The levels and depths of understanding of ideas---- -self evident !

[LoneTiger108]

Am I right in saying that Joy is the only person here who has this Code of Conduct presented in his hall? Who else?

Anyone use a picture of Ip Man, or your Sifu and ancestry?

Just intrigued because I don't see much evidence here of direct connection to the Wing Chun family, and I know there are some here! ;)

[Vajramusti]

Am I right in saying that Joy is the only person here who has this Code of Conduct presented in his hall? Who else?

Anyone use a picture of Ip Man, or your Sifu and ancestry?

Just intrigued because I don't see much evidence here of direct connection to the Wing Chun family, and I know there are some here! ;)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pictures of Ip man, Ho Kam Ming and Augustine Fong hang in my training area.
What others do is their business.

joy

[LoneTiger108]

Very true Joy, but it is nice to hear all the same. :)

I think I was among the first foreigners to have a copy of my Sigungs picture lol!! But it does hang in my own studio. My Sifu too has his set-up at home but not in his club because he doesn't own the hall (according to him that wouldn't be right!)

It would be nice to hear from others that share the respect in this way...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Am I right in saying that Joy is the only person here who has this Code of Conduct presented in his hall? Who else?

Anyone use a picture of Ip Man, or your Sifu and ancestry?

Just intrigued because I don't see much evidence here of direct connection to the Wing Chun family, and I know there are some here! ;)

Every commercial school I have trained in: TKD, Kyokushin, judo, WC, Hung Kuen had a code of conduct AND pictures of the founders/reknown practioners.
Nothing at all wrong with that, far from it.

[Vajramusti]

Every commercial school I have trained in: TKD, Kyokushin, judo, WC, Hung Kuen had a code of conduct AND pictures of the founders/reknown practioners.
Nothing at all wrong with that, far from it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fer sure. My school is not quite commercial.

joy

[LoneTiger108]

Nothing at all wrong with that, far from it.

Agreed 100% and this falls into code of conduct no.9 ;)

But you have a very traditional background in Martial Arts (from what I see) and there are obviously some Wing Chun people who shy away from this cultural practise because it just doesn't interest them, or they have never been exposed to this way of life by their Sifu. Maybe even their Sifu hated the idea!!

I find nothing wrong in that either, but I'm a traditional kind of guy in the end I suppose. May even go as far as burning a bit of incense too! Am I bad??! :eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

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Fer sure. My school is not quite commercial.

joy

I said commercial to distinguish from private, no offense intended Joy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agreed 100% and this falls into code of conduct no.9 ;)

But you have a very traditional background in Martial Arts (from what I see) and there are obviously some Wing Chun people who shy away from this cultural practise because it just doesn't interest them, or they have never been exposed to this way of life by their Sifu. Maybe even their Sifu hated the idea!!

I find nothing wrong in that either, but I'm a traditional kind of guy in the end I suppose. May even go as far as burning a bit of incense too! Am I bad??! :eek:

The cultural trappings of ANY MA are not always for everyone, some people may have cultural or even religious reasons for avoiding them and as long as their teacher is ok with that, we should have no comment on it.
That said, I know many a teacher who's MA is entrenched in their culture and you can't get one without the other.

My exposure to the Yagyu Shinkage ryu system was a prime example of that.

[Vajramusti]

I said commercial to distinguish from private, no offense intended Joy.
-------------------------------------
I understood Sanjuro.No offense taken whatsoever.

joy

[Wayfaring]

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Pointless sarcasm. Ip Man had his flaws.
Members of a relatively well to do class of Chinese people were drawn into opium houses and culture ---negative effects of western imperialism- the opium wars and the required selling of opium...the Brits shipped it from my hometown Calcutta to Canton regularly. Not just IM but YKS and others.
US Tobacco companies even now do quite a job selling tobacco in Asia--sans the attempt at restrictions in the US.

I don't engage in pointless sarcasm about lineage ancestors in non IM lineages or other IM lineages..

Thus, I also enjoy Coleridge's poetry without dwelling on his personal habits.

joy chaudhuri

I don't believe it is pointless sarcasm. It actually is not sarcasm at all, merely an observation. I am pointing out a dichotomy in behavior versus what he wrote and published as a "code of conduct".

Sure the Brits shipped opium. But it was a personal moral choice to have that habit or not. It wasn't the Brits fault Ip Man chose to succomb to that habit. It was a vice.

Now there are many martial arts teachers that just teach the art and don't publish "codes of conduct". However, if one does, just like the martial arts teachers teachings of the martial art it would be completely illogical not to examine whether or not the "code of conduct" was one the teacher successfully lived through his life and thus was passing on or not. In this case it appears not.

What's pointless is your comparison of how you don't engage in pointless sarcasm about other lineage ancestors. And how you compare Coleridge's poetry.

I too enjoy fictional works done by author's with challenging vices. I enjoy Sherlock Holmes works, but have read that A. Conan Doyle also had an opium habit. However, the author wasn't writing a "code of conduct" to be passed down to all his martial arts schools either.

Part of a cult-like behavior IMO is seeing white knights charge to the rescue of the image of a man that was just a man with vices. I can enjoy Ip Man's "code of conduct" as something he tried to use throughout his life to keep him focused on his virtues and away from his vices as striving for virtue and falling short is common to all mankind.

However, I have to be realistic about it. I'm more interested in his discourse on elbow position as I know that to have been empirically tested.

[WingChunABQ]

Am I right in saying that Joy is the only person here who has this Code of Conduct presented in his hall? Who else?

Anyone use a picture of Ip Man, or your Sifu and ancestry?

Just intrigued because I don't see much evidence here of direct connection to the Wing Chun family, and I know there are some here! ;)

In my Sifu's kwoon hang these sayings, the kuit in Chinese and English, photos of Yip Man, Ho Kam Ming, Augusting Fong, Joy and others.

[Vajramusti]

In my Sifu's kwoon hang these sayings, the kuit in Chinese and English, photos of Yip Man, Ho Kam Ming, Augusting Fong, Joy and others.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wing chun ABQ
Say hello to your sifu for me when you see him.
I don't do facebook, twitter, link etc but email is fine.
Regrads,

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

That said, I know many a teacher who's MA is entrenched in their culture and you can't get one without the other.

Here was my challenge!! Although, if truth be told, I wanted to learn as much as possible and I have always been into the culture through cantonese childhood friends, so I personally didn't see the problem because I thought that's how it should be!


Part of a cult-like behavior IMO is seeing white knights charge to the rescue of the image of a man that was just a man with vices. I can enjoy Ip Man's "code of conduct" as something he tried to use throughout his life to keep him focused on his virtues and away from his vices as striving for virtue and falling short is common to all mankind.

That sounds reasonable, as long as your reference to White Knights wasn't aimed at me! lol!

I can add this: If you wanted to set-up a Martial Art school (as Ip Man did in HK) you would have to submit your codes and curriculums to the local council. This was, of course, not the only reason for such things to exist, but it had a major influence of the writings 'of the time'.

The same applies to me in the UK, if I wanted to gain support from my local government. My Sifu too has done this for years in his local area, and this is obviously one of the major factors behind us performing in front of Royalty. Cultural exchange is very big here in the UK ;)

[trubblman]

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Pointless sarcasm. Ip Man had his flaws.


I didnt read it as sarcasm. I read it as saying that there is a difference between Ip Man the person and Ip Man the icon.

[LoneTiger108]

I didnt read it as sarcasm. I read it as saying that there is a difference between Ip Man the person and Ip Man the icon.

I think, with regards to Ip Man the person, there are so many new generations entering the system now that we have thousands upon thousands of people who have learnt about Wing Chun and Ip Man from the movies. The projection of him as an Icon.

As far as I am aware there is only one book in print that attempts to share more examples of Ip Mans personality and life, written by Ip Ching. And that too promotes the iconic side to the man but there are still glimmers in there.

I am happy that his Code of Conduct survived at least because it does show what he was aiming for too. It was his way of sharing the older traditions, which he knew and understood, with his more modern students at a time of massive change in Martial Arts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It wasn't just Ip Man, look at Oyama and so many others.
They all have codes of conduct in their systems and all fell far short of them.
Such is human nature.
Codes of conduct are goals to strive for and while we can always say that a teacher was "Do what as I say, not as I do", the fact is that ALL teachers are/were like that.
Truth is truth, regardless of the source and if one holds certain things to be right and correct then they are just that.

[anerlich]

Y'know what I find interesting about this post?

Well, yeah, you went on to tell me.


You presume that I followed my Sifu blindly or something? That we didn't debate, share ideals and even argue bitterly about values, ethics and such like!!??

You're the only one presuming anything here. I never said any of that sh!t. Regular readers would be unsurprised to hear that you get into lots of arguments, I guess.


If you would only try to reassess what you have pre-judged about my personal history with my teacher, you may find that I'm not as blind as you imagine.

After several years we are far beyond "pre-judgement". I don't GAF about your personal history with your teacher, nor about the intricacies of your personality.


I don't care much either way.

Good. STFU then.


I just happen to be the only student of his, like ever, to reveal such things. That's all. And I do so with his full support now, unlike before when we first promoted his methods back in 1994. It was only after 1997 that he decidied to go public really.

A sequence of events in which I have no interest.


Besides, there are no 'alleged' things here. I am giving you 'facts'. I speak as truthfully as I'm able here (most of the time!! lol!) and yet I still feel that you hold that against me for some reason?

I don't agree with you on a number of subjects, including your own and your teachers' apparently perceived importance in the scheme of things. Occasionally you get ridiculously pompous, and attract the derision you deserve for that. What you claim as fact is more often than not just your or your seniors' opinion.

If these are genuine YM rules of conduct, it is not fact but opinion that they form a tradition which must be preserved. Other opinions might have it that they are just a set of bleedingly obvious platitudes that most people would come up with on their own with some introspection, and that such sets of rules impede rather than promote personal growth.

[anerlich]

My teacher's school has a shrine with pictures of YM and John Church, a former instructor and student and member of the Australian SAS who was killed in the line of duty. Also Barbara Rich, a former student who died of cancer a couple of years back.

Also formal photographs of past and current instructors and senior instructors. And many more of students, sparring sessions, kickboxing, BJJ and MMA competition matches, etc. etc.

There is a code of conduct on the wall which came from William Cheung (though as the self-appointed gatekeeper of YM tradition, Spencer, would protest, NOT FROM YIP MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) .

I wrote an extensive analysis of it in a thesis for my instructor level grading, which monomaniacs and the REALLY bored could probably find on the web in the unlikely event they were interested.

[LoneTiger108]

There is a code of conduct on the wall which came from William Cheung (though as the self-appointed gatekeeper of YM tradition, Spencer, would protest, NOT FROM YIP MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Wouldn't you just love that??!! ME!! Self appointed gatekeeper of Ip Man?? WTF dude?? How did you come to that conculsion?? All I have done here is start a thread to share thoughts on Ip Mans Code of Conduct :(


I wrote an extensive analysis of it in a thesis for my instructor level grading, which monomaniacs and the REALLY bored could probably find on the web in the unlikely event they were interested.

Finally, we have evidence of you looking into this at some point, even if you seem to not approve of such discussions. So, quick question, was it the same as the ones I posted here??

I see you were taught 'Hung Suen' Wing Chun by Rick Spain? So just maybe you have your own lineage issues and complications to deal with? Personally, I'm not interested in any of that. I couldn't care if you practice a million different Martial Arts. I am only interested in finding people who want a similar outcome from our dialogue.

People who want unification of the Wing Chun family. :)

[anerlich]

Finally, we have evidence of you looking into this at some point, even if you seem to not approve of such discussions.

Evidence? Finally? Am I going to be subpoenaed?


So, quick question, was it the same as the ones I posted here??

Quick answer, no.


I see you were taught 'Hung Suen' Wing Chun by Rick Spain? So just maybe you have your own lineage issues and complications to deal with?

I have no lineage issues or complications, nothing to deal with. WTF are you on about?


Personally, I'm not interested in any of that.

Stupid of you to bring it up then.


I couldn't care if you practice a million different Martial Arts. I am only interested in finding people who want a similar outcome from our dialogue.

Neither fact concerns me.


People who want unification of the Wing Chun family.

Oh, Jeez, not this family sh!t again. :eek:

[LoneTiger108]

Oh, Jeez, not this family sh!t again. :eek:

As you should know by now, that is what interests me and was one of the reasons I started a thread about Ip Mans Code Of Conduct. So if you have no more to contribute, thanks for your input.

I ask again, does anyone else here other than myself (Lee Shing family) or Joy and WingChunABQ (Ho Kam Ming Family) have this version of Ip Mans Code Of Conduct?

http://www.kwokwingchun.co.uk/assets/2009/3/12/CodeofConduct.jpg