Deadlift Help

[IronFist]

Ok, this is pìssing me off now. I know that some people here have been deadlifting for a long time, so maybe you guys can help me.

Alright. Of the "three big lifts," I've been doing Bench and Squat since I started lifting weights. However, until I read PTP a few weeks ago, I had never done a deadlift before. Here's where I get pìssed.

Tonight, I was deadlifting (regular stance) 135. Yeah, that's right. One bloody plate on each side, and after 5 reps, my lower back was sore as hell, like I had just done 1,000,000 hyperextensions. What's up with that? I can squat a ton more than 135, so why can't I DL that much?

Even weirder, is that if I do Sumo style deadlifts, I'm fine and there's no soreness at all. I can teach clients to deadlift, and they have no problem either. I just can't do regular stanced DLs. I've even had 2 powerlifters check my form, and they find nothing wrong. Is my lower back just really weak (despite never being sore ever, for any other exercise, even heavy squats?) or is my body just not proportioned for regular deadlifts.

Input, please.

Iron

[dumog93]

I got real sore for the first month across my lower back when changing from sumo to conventional deadlifting.Of course part of this was getting my form down with the change and dropping the weight down again.It's been three months now since i changed over and i'm getting my legs under me more and using my lower back a little less.I've probably also built up my lower back a little more.It seems to me conventional requires a bit more in the way of back muscles to get good pulls.Maybe as your back gets used to it and you get your legs under you(if that's even the problem) things will smooth out.I'm almost caught up to my sumo all time best,except with conventional i don't get the big pressure to the side of my knees that was causing me problems.

good luck,

Devildog

[UberShaman]

Deadlifts hit you like no other exercise. The sumo style DL's let your legs share more of the load. Your lower back will catch up pretty quickly. How slowly are you lowering the weight? Do you wear a belt when you squat?

[Daedalus]

Deadlifts are not suppossed to work your back. You should be maintaining the normal curvature of your spine throughout a deadlift.

Deadlifts are designed to work your gluteus maximus and your hamstrings(biceps femoris).

If they are hurting your lower back then you're doing them incorrectly.

Be careful.

[UberShaman]

Deadlifts are indeed a lower back exercise. You sound like your thinking about stiff legged deadlifts which are a different exercise.

[IronFist]

Deadlifts are a lower back exercise, Daedalus.

Uber: No belt (for Pavel's reasoning, along with my own). I will never wear a lifting belt when I lift (however, I do wear a weighted belt with a chain so i can hook plates on when doing pullups, but that's a different kind).

Also, as for lowering the weight, I pretty much drop it, but I go down with it. In other words, I do not slowly lower it.

Iron

[UberShaman]

Well your doing everything right, could be the proportion thing like you mentioned

[Daedalus]

Sorry guys,..my bad.

Uber,
You're right, I was thinking of the stiff legged deadlift.

:D

[IronFist]

Thanks for the advice guys. I may stick with Sumos + hyper extensions for a cycle, and then go on to Regulars.

Iron

[Grappling-Insanity]

I've only done regular DL's. I've head of sumo DL's but never seen them. Can any1 plz describe them 2 me???

[dumog93]

Stiff legged deadlifts definitely work your lower back.Look at a MRI of someone doing a stiff legged deadlift(there is a book with MRI's of legs and back during different exercises for those you wondering exactly what each one hits more.I got my book through musclemag i think if anyone is interested.On the wearing of a belt during deadlifts....it is a must! Once you get your deadlifts over a certain point(300 pounds for me)you are putting a wicked amount of stress on your abdominal wall.The abdominal wall is not nearly as strong as your entire back and shoulders(which is what it is stabilizing against).Wearing a belt will keep you from pulling your ab muscles and upper groin.This is by no means a scientific breakdown,but only the observations and hearsay passed on by an intermediate deadlifter.I was told the belt is a must by Ricky Crain,someone i trust that knows what he is doing more than i.I am currently deadlifting 505 for a single at 190 pounds,Ricky does 760 or so at 165 pounds.

-Jeff

[dumog93]

The sumo allows you to setup with less stress placed on your lower back,more on your knees.Conventional will work your legs just as much if you are doing them correctly,just at a little different angle.For sumo setup i approach the bar upright and place my shins against it with my toes pointing out at around a 45 degree angle out. / like so.I make sure my shins are rubbing the marks on the bar(the rings where people normally set a finger in preparation to bench),i set my hands about shoulder width and squat down with my ass parallel and then go.It's harder to explain than to watch.The basic steps are leg setup(stance),grip,hips,go.

-Jeff

[IronFist]

if you have to wear a belt to max out your lifts, then you don't have that level of "practical strength" for life. If you get in a fight, you can't go "I can't put forth enough effort to control you here because i'm not wearing my lifting belt."

Strengthen your abs. Then ditch the belt.

That's my opinion.

Iron

[TjD]

i see people doing squats/deadlift with belts all the time in my gym, nice really BIG guys... with round bellies - i rarely see any of these guys take time to work their abdominals

i think a lot of these big powerlifters need to help out their abs a bit more ;) because i see someone squat 400 lbs with a belt, and they have a nice beer gut/donut around their midsection - and i never see them do crunches

when you only work one muscle, and never the opposing one, thats always asking for trouble - so why work out your back and not your abs?

i think using a belt leads to unhealthy practices personally so i never do - if something isnt strong enough, you work on it and make it strong enough


peace
travis

if you never get into a fight,
you can never be defeated,
if you can never be defeated,
you are invincible

[dumog93]

Well fellas,i hate to tell you,but striking a balance between abs and your back is like telling a croc he needs to work on opening his jaws more and his bite less.He is designed more for chewing than opening his mouth and any amount of training would take centuries and countless generations to filter down to where it would be practical.Now as for human applications...i can do stiff legged deadlifts with 315 pounds for reps.There is no way in hell i can do that with a sit up motion hanging or lying....because that is not the way we are built.I am in no way obese and am merely stating the facts.Some genetic things we have to live with.Yes,we can push things a little,but never will i be able to have abs the same strength as my back.It might not even be possible,but i am sure it won't hinder me regardless.As for why we lift heavy....plain and simple to gain strength.Pushing our strength envelope to say 600 pounds on a deadlift at 185 pounds of bodyweight would make standing up and shaking someone off your back a piece of cake.My point is,the belt is for pushing the envelope.Don't wear a belt when you are trying to apply the strength to a sport at a much lower level,such as lifting another competitor in a jiu-jitsu tourney.Anyone that wants to argue feel free.Seeing deadlifters as lard-asses that have to wear belts sounds like a cop-out to me.I'm definitely not a lard-ass and i wear a belt.I don't use wrist straps,but i do use knee wraps.My body is not meant to lift 500+ pounds in either the deadlift or squat without safety equipment and added stability,but i assure you i could drop the weight 25% and go without...but what would be the point? To each his own i suppose,i am just trying to get the myth of the lard-ass strongman out of here.There are a lot of crazy strong individuals who are far from fat,but the rest of us degrade what they have accomplished by acting like the fox and claiming we don't want the sour grapes anyway.

-Jeff

[namkuen]

IronFist, I don't deadlift; however, I do know most lower back pains are caused from either insufficient breath (chi) circulation into the lower heaven (dan tien) (the abdomen) or incorrect body alignment. Both cause tenstion to be developed in the lower back.

Since your technique has been checked out by power lifters, then I would suspect the former. To correct the problem of insufficient circulation into the abdomen, I recommend that you practice sitting meditation to focus your breath into the abdomen. This will strengthen the abdomen, even to the point where it is the motor for your inhaling and exhaling, instead of the lungs.

For a somewhat indepth explanation of how to do sitting meditation, please refer the Flexibility topic by Herring. There, I explain to him some basic and advanced principles of meditation.

I hope this helps. If you'd like you can email me with any further questions that you may have!

Peace!!!

DWR

One who conquers others is strong, but one who conquers himself is mighty! Lao Tzu

[IronFist]

Dumog said:

"i can do stiff legged deadlifts with 315 pounds for reps.There is no way in hell i can do that with a sit up motion hanging or lying....because that is not the way we are built."

Well, think about what you just said. No one said that a muscles antagonist muscles are going to be EXACTLY the same strength. Their strength just stays in proportion to the other muscle. Obviously if you can SLDL with 315 pounds, there's more than just your lower back working, and you wouldn't have the same assistance doing crunches with 315.

SLDL's work your hamstrings too, they can't help your abs on ab exercises. You've also got spinal cord support, which really doesn't come into play on crunches either.

It's like, no one's biceps are as strong as their triceps, but if one were to build ONLY the biceps and not the triceps, they would run into problems because proportionally, the triceps could not keep up with the bi's.

Hope that makes sense.

Iron

[shaolin_knight]

Ironfist, I got a little sore on deadlifts at first too. It went away, I think because I was doing the stuff in Pavel's Beyond stretching. If you increase your flexibility and strength, it shouldn't bother you. Also, maybe try a slightly lower weight (don't be embarrassed, I had to start real low, but I moved up.) Just what worked for me. I noticed too that when the weight got heavier I couldn't be lazy or cheat or I would get sore. Follow Pavel's words to the T. Re-read the deadlift section. Are you doing the breathing right? That helps me. Let us know how you do. Power to you!

[dumog93]

Iron,i'm really not trying to antagonize you,but i'm not really seeing the argument.Doing weighted sit-ups you would be using support muscles and helpers as well like your quads as a primary helper as opposed to hamstrings for SLDLs.The point i was making about the wearing of belts can be made simpler by comparing it to other ways we train.Do you wrap your hands when boxing,or at least wear gloves? A belt is both a piece of safety equipment and a support device to offer a little help if you happen to not be perfect on your form.If you aren't deadlifting heavy then maybe it isn't as important.I don't disagree with the point about useable strength at all other than the way you put it.You made it seem as though someone using a belt deadlifting heavy poundages has no useable strength.The argument i was putting forth was that to push our strength performance envelope beyond a certain point you have to use a belt to push the heavy weights.I don't think i can build my abs to a point that they aren't going to feel like they are getting ready to become external organs when going to 500 pounds or more.Maybe it's possible,but i probably won't try it anytime soon.My ab strength has increased right along with my quads,shoulders,back and grip...but reaches a point of diminishing returns after 400 or so.It is a commonly accepted practice such as wrapping your knees or wearing a football helmet when we're going to ram each other at top speed.While i'm sure you can't lift 100% of what you could lift with a belt training this way,i'm also fairly certain training without a belt will put you nowhere near the strength performance level of the ones that use it as an aid.

my two cents,

-Jeff

p.s.-didn't mean to come off so belligerent on the earlier posts either,bad training week :(

[This message was edited by dumog93 on 07-16-01 at 02:43 PM.]

[IronFist]

Dumog:

No dude, I didn't take offence don't worry :) as for what you said,

"Do you wrap your hands when boxing,or at least wear gloves?"

I don't (usually). Only because I feel it is important enough to develop adaquate strength in my wrists (and such) so that if i do get into a fight, I won't need gloves and i'll be able to confidently punch without worry about wrist stability or whatever.

If you like using a belt, go for it. I'm sure I could pick up a bit more if I did too, I just choose not too. I know how PL's use their "squatting suits" and stuff in competitions. While personally I think that's kind of dumb, cuz it's like "yeah, i can squat 1000lbs! I rule! Oh, but if i'm not wearing this suit, i can only squat 800lbs." Actually, I just made those numbers up, but you get my point.

I just don't like to see people relying so heavily on belts. I see guys bench in belts, do pullups in belts, it's like, that's really doing more harm than good.

But, if you can DL 500 lbs, I can't talk shìt to you at all, regardless of if you use a belt or not :P

But when I can DL 600lbs, with no belt, I'll look you up so I can talk smack :P

Later dude,

Iron

[ElPietro]

Stiff legged deadlifts work virtually every muscle in your body. The focus is on lower back and hamstrings, and you should also feel a burn in your traps the next couple days. Basically squats are a great compound movement but doesn't hit upper body like deads do. If you experience pain then drop the weight and focus on form. Never worry about how much weight you start with. Your lower back is sore because the muscle is fatigued, no meditation required. I do deadlifts on back day, some do them on leg day, but if you deadlift you shouldn't squat and vice versa. It's a heck of a load on your body and doing both exercising in one week is pretty tuff. Maybe rotate deads and squats week to week and see how your gains will be. I sldl 300lbs and find that each week it's easy to add more weight. Usually your grip will fail before you back when you get used to the motion.

[TIDAL]

Don't overdo your back either. If your bringing your muscles to failure with deadlifts you should give them the most time to recover.

The back muscles heal the slowest of all muscles and are usually the first to become overtrained. So dont overdo it or you'll end up with some injuries.

TIDAL