Don't Use Muscle

[WingChunABQ]

"Don't use muscle" was one of those mantras at the first WC school I studied in. It was always a bit puzzling to me because without muscle, we couldn't even hold our heads up let alone do kung fu. I came to understand that it means "use structure to generate power".

Is "don't use muscle" something that's been highly emphasized for others as well?

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Don't use muscle" was one of those mantras at the first WC school I studied in. It was always a bit puzzling to me because without muscle, we couldn't even hold our heads up let alone do kung fu. I came to understand that it means "use structure to generate power".

Is "don't use muscle" something that's been highly emphasized for others as well?

It is impossible NOT to use muscle.
What those things mean is to NOT OVERLY rely on brute strength.
Correct MA technique is when you apply strength at the right time of application of technique.

[hunt1]

Going to disagree a small bit sanjuro.

2 ways to do things: Internal, which has the prime focus of power generation from the skeleton and tendons. External prime focus of power generation from muscles like triceps etc.

Muscle is always involved however what is meant is not to focus on using muscle or strength but rather focus on using your skeleton and tendons.

For example in tennis the goal is to use your body, turning and twisting of your hips and waist to hit the ball. Your arm should be like a whip. It transmits the power generated by the body it does not generate the power itself.

Wing chun is the same. arm is the whip power comes from proper use of the body.

Most untrained people however generate power from contraction, tension of their muscles first.

Hence awlays being told to relax etc. tension in muscles actually holds power back. So the saying don't use muscle is a crude inaccurate way to try to convey the idea of let power generate and flow from the body and allow the arms to be amore whip like when striking.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Going to disagree a small bit sanjuro.

2 ways to do things: Internal, which has the prime focus of power generation from the skeleton and tendons. External prime focus of power generation from muscles like triceps etc.

Muscle is always involved however what is meant is not to focus on using muscle or strength but rather focus on using your skeleton and tendons.

For example in tennis the goal is to use your body, turning and twisting of your hips and waist to hit the ball. Your arm should be like a whip. it transmits the power generated by the body it does not generate the power itself.

It is impossible to move without muscular effort.
The human body does NOT work that way.

[hunt1]

Read what i wrote not what you think I wrote, Clearly said muscle is always involved!

Any activity that involves striking or just pure power generation the proper mechanics are the same and are in essence taught the same by qualified teachers. Tennis,Baseball,Golf', Olympic lifting or wing chun all the same

[sanjuro_ronin]

Read what i wrote not what you think I wrote, Clearly said muscle is always involved!

Any activity that involves striking or just pure power generation the proper mechanics are the same and are in essence taught the same by qualified teachers. Tennis,Baseball,Golf', Olympic lifting or wing chun all the same

Yeah I read and this here is one HUGE misconception:

2 ways to do things: Internal, which has the prime focus of power generation from the skeleton and tendons. External prime focus of power generation from muscles like triceps etc

You can't move, much less generate power from your skeleton and tendons without using muscular force.
Every athlete that needs to be quicker or more explosive works on building stronger muscles.

You said:

Muscle is always involved however what is meant is not to focus on using muscle or strength but rather focus on using your skeleton and tendons.

Thing is that you CAN'T use your skeletal structure without exerting muscular effort for focusing on using your skeleton and tendons means nothing really.


For example in tennis the goal is to use your body, turning and twisting of your hips and waist to hit the ball. Your arm should be like a whip. it transmits the power generated by the body it does not generate the power itself.

Have you seen the dominant arm of a tennis player?
A tennis stroke is a whole body action, including the arm, it is NOT simply a transmitter.
Notice the bodies of tennis players now?
Notice that are hitting faster, harder and playing more powerful?


Any activity that involves striking or just pure power generation the proper mechanics are the same and are in essence taught the same by qualified teachers. Tennis,Baseball,Golf', Olympic lifting or wing chun all the same

And what do coaches in Tennis, baseball, OL et all advocate to make their athlete faster, more explosive?

[Frost]

And what do coaches in Tennis, baseball, OL et all advocate to make their athlete faster, more explosive?

oh oh (puts hand up) can i answer please!!!!!!!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Every style that voices the whole "don't use muscle" thing is simply trying to instill that fact that brute strength can only take you so far, but every MA system advocates USING strength at the right time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

oh oh (puts hand up) can i answer please!!!!!!!!

If you say OL I will smack you !
:D

[Frost]

Was going to say strength training that works both the CNS system and the bodies’ ability to contract its muscles quickly….OL lifts are just implied by the statement, as are squats, plyros and deads :cool:

[Grumblegeezer]

It is impossible to move without muscular effort.
The human body does NOT work that way.

Of course. But the idea is to develop and employ structures (that could be seen as the skeletal and tendon aspect) and kinetic linkages that allow you to relax unnecessary muscle groups and maximise your efficiency. Less gas, more mileage.

Another thing is learning to borrow your opponent's force. Relax and use his power to augment yours.

On the other hand if you are huge and awesomely powerful, why bother? Unfortunately, I'm smallish and old. Gotta go with the 'chun.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course. But the idea is to develop and employ structures (that could be seen as the skeletal and tendon aspect) and kinetic linkages that allow you to relax unnecessary muscle groups and maximise your efficiency. Less gas, more mileage.

Another thing is learning to borrow your opponent's force. Relax and use his power to augment yours.

On the other hand if you are huge and awesomely powerful, why bother? Unfortunately, I'm smallish and old. Gotta go with the 'chun.

Of course, but all that
employ structures (that could be seen as the skeletal and tendon aspect) and kinetic linkages that allow you to relax unnecessary muscle groups and maximise your efficiency. Less gas, more mileage. requires the use of muscles and the stronger they are the less effort you will have to use.
Luckily strength is one of the last things we lose as we get older and one of the things that we can hold on to the longest.
Its about the economic use of strength and, as with all things, the most strength you have to use economically, the better.
This of course goes beyond MA since the vast majority of us will need strength in our everyday lives for more than we will need MA.

[hunt1]

Ah, I see now your just obtuse.

Proper technique is the proper use of the skeleton and joints to accomplish the task.

Using dead lift as an example. Most untrained people simply bend over and try to lift with their arms and upper back. This would be a version of external muscle first usage.

Proper lift is based on technique which is based on the use of knees, hips spine position. The arms are not the primary lifters arms insure the grip and prime goal is to maintain connection to the rest of the body through the shoulder joints. The power for the lift comes from engagement of the lower body muscles . This engagement is accomplished via the hips, knees and spine. this is internal usage. The use and alignment of the skeleton provides the platform over which the larger muscles are then engaged.

The lift is accomplished via use of the skeleton. If the skeleton is not used properly the lifter will not achieve maximum results and injury will eventually occur.

Sure tennis and all other athletics ruse weight bearing exercises in some form. However the technique used is based on the use of the ankles hip knee shoulder joints etc. Don't see any tennis players with 21 inch guns Focus is overall body not individual muscle development.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ah, I see now your just obtuse.

Proper technique is the proper use of the skeleton and joints to accomplish the task.

Using dead lift as an example. Most untrained people simply bend over and try to lift with their arms and upper back. This would be a version of external muscle first usage.

Proper lift is based on technique which is based on the use of knees, hips spine position. The arms are not the primary lifters arms insure the grip and prime goal is to maintain connection to the rest of the body through the shoulder joints. The power for the lift comes from engagement of the lower body muscles . This engagement is accomplished via the hips, knees and spine. this is internal usage. The use and alignment of the skeleton provides the platform for over which the larger muscles are then engaged.

The lift is accomplished via use of the skeleton. If the skeleton is not used properly the lifter will not achieve maximum results and injury will eventually occur


and you CAN'T use your skeleton WITHOUT your muscles.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure tennis and all other athletics ruse weight bearing exercises in some form. However the technique used is based on the use of the ankles hip knee shoulder joints etc. Don't see any tennis players with 21 inch guns Focus is overall body not individual muscle development.

Don't confuse strength with hypertrohy.
Muscle mass is an indication of muscle size, not strength.

[Grumblegeezer]

...you CAN'T use your skeleton WITHOUT your muscles.

Obviously. Did anybody imply otherwise?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Obviously. Did anybody imply otherwise?

Imply?
Well, how do you read this implication?

2 ways to do things: Internal, which has the prime focus of power generation from the skeleton and tendons. External prime focus of power generation from muscles like triceps etc.

Internal = power generated from skeleton and tendons ( which do NOT generate power)
External: Power generated from muscles "like triceps etc.".

That seems to me to imply that muscles are NOT used when "generating" power from bones (skeleton) and tendons, no?

[wenshu]

2 ways to do things: Internal, which has the prime focus of power generation from the skeleton and tendons. External prime focus of power generation from muscles like triceps etc.

As far as I know that is not even remotely close to an accurate definition of internal power generation.

I think what you mean to say is something like

心与意合，
xin yu yi he
Heart harmonizes with the Intent

意与气合，
yi yu qi he
Intent harmonizes with the Qi

气与力合；
qi yu li he
Qi harmonizes with the power/strength

手与足合，
shou yu zu he
hands harmonize with the feet

肘与膝合，
zhou yu xi he
elbows harmonize with the knees

肩与胯合
jian yu kua he
shoulders harmonize with hips

[Brule]

Ah, I see now your just obtuse.

Proper technique is the proper use of the skeleton and joints to accomplish the task.

Using dead lift as an example. Most untrained people simply bend over and try to lift with their arms and upper back. This would be a version of external muscle first usage.

Proper lift is based on technique which is based on the use of knees, hips spine position. The arms are not the primary lifters arms insure the grip and prime goal is to maintain connection to the rest of the body through the shoulder joints. The power for the lift comes from engagement of the lower body muscles . This engagement is accomplished via the hips, knees and spine. this is internal usage. The use and alignment of the skeleton provides the platform over which the larger muscles are then engaged.

The lift is accomplished via use of the skeleton. If the skeleton is not used properly the lifter will not achieve maximum results and injury will eventually occur.

Sure tennis and all other athletics ruse weight bearing exercises in some form. However the technique used is based on the use of the ankles hip knee shoulder joints etc. Don't see any tennis players with 21 inch guns Focus is overall body not individual muscle development.

FINALLY !!! Someone providing a clear explanation of an internal deadlift. Now if you can describe an internal hip throw, we can close this mother down and exclaim that you have won the internetz. :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

FINALLY !!! Someone providing a clear explanation of an internal deadlift. Now if you can describe an internal hip throw, we can close this mother down and exclaim that you have won the internetz. :rolleyes:

I THINK what he means is that the internal stucture of the skeleton, when itis correct aligned, is what makes a move internal, as opposed to "just using your muscles" without proper form.
If that is the case he is correct of course, and if that is the case then every powerlifter and weight lifter is an internal athlete since that is exactly what they do.

[WingChunABQ]

There's also all that stuff about Chi.

[YouKnowWho]

"Don't use muscle"

The better words should be to "use your body to pull/push your limbs". All TCMA systems try to achieve this. It has nothing to do with "internal" and "external". For example, when you try to block a punch with your arm, you can do in the following 2 different ways:

- Move your arm and don't move your body. If you miss the blocking, your will get hit.
- Move your body and let your body to pull your arm. If you miss the blocking, since your body is already moved out of the striking path, you will not get hit.


I THINK what he means is that the internal stucture of the skeleton, when itis correct aligned, is what makes a move internal, as opposed to "just using your muscles" without proper form.
Try to assume that correct body alignment only exist in the "internal" system is rediculus IMO.


if you can describe an internal hip throw, we can close this mother down and exclaim that you have won the internetz. :rolleyes:
I have expected to see an "internal hip throw" and "internal roundhouse kick" for over 10 years. So far I still have not yet seen any. :(

[anerlich]

We seem to all be on the same page viz. that solid technique, leverage, overcomes brute strength applied with inferior technique ... unless your opponent is a bull elephant.

It's when you add the label "internal" that things get messed up.


Proper lift is based on technique which is based on the use of knees, hips spine position. The arms are not the primary lifters arms insure the grip and prime goal is to maintain connection to the rest of the body through the shoulder joints. The power for the lift comes from engagement of the lower body muscles . This engagement is accomplished via the hips, knees and spine. this is internal usage. The use and alignment of the skeleton provides the platform over which the larger muscles are then engaged.

So by doing heavy deadlifts with good technique, we're training internally rather than strength training? Long bow.

Somewhat cumbersome attempting to refute the need for muscular strength using a powerlifting and strength/power training movement as the example.

Done properly, learning to lift heavy can actually teach you to use your body more efficiently. At some level at least, technique is strength is technique.

Yelling out "don't use muscle" is poor pedagogy IMO. Better to say things like "Whole body, use the hips, like a whip" etc.


I'm smallish and old. Gotta go with the 'chun.

I'm probably older than you, but I do better at the chun and physical life in general when strong and old, rather than just old.

[k gledhill]

"Better to say things like "Whole body, use the hips, like a whip" etc."

[YouKnowWho]

As far as I know that is not even remotely close to an accurate definition of internal power generation.

I think what you mean to say is something like

心与意合，
xin yu yi he
Heart harmonizes with the Intent

意与气合，
yi yu qi he
Intent harmonizes with the Qi

气与力合；
qi yu li he
Qi harmonizes with the power/strength

手与足合，
shou yu zu he
hands harmonize with the feet

肘与膝合，
zhou yu xi he
elbows harmonize with the knees

肩与胯合
jian yu kua he
shoulders harmonize with hips

Just had another discussion on another forum on "muscle group isolation" vs. "function body unification" work out in the gym. IMO, the "6 harmony" principle is so important for any TCMA guy's training. The "muscle group isolation" just go the complete opposite direction.

To have "6 harmony" ability without huge muscle vs. to have huge muscle without "6 harmony" ability is exactly what we are discussing here.

[WingChunABQ]

Just had another discussion on another forum on "muscle group isolation" vs. "function body unification" work out in the gym. IMO, the "6 harmony" principle is so important for any TCMA guy's training. The "muscle group isolation" just go the complete opposite direction.

To have "6 harmony" ability without huge muscle vs. to have huge muscle without "6 harmony" ability is exactly what we are discussing here.

Can you elaborate on the 6 Harmony stuff? I'm not sure I know what you mean.

[YouKnowWho]

Can you elaborate on the 6 Harmony stuff? I'm not sure I know what you mean.

The human body is like 3 separate springs. Without training, those 3 springs will be compressed and released indepently. With training, all 3 springs can be compressed and released at the same time.

- Your "hand" and "foot" should start to move at the same time and stop to move at the same time.
- Your "elbow" and "knee" should start to move at the same time and stop to move at the same time.
- Your "shoulder" and "hip" should start to move at the same time and stop to move at the same time.
- The other 3 harmonies are a bit "abstract".

Again, this is just general TCMA guideline which has nothing to do with styles, or "internal" and "external" stuff.

[WingChunABQ]

Thanks! What about the 'abstract' ones?

[hunt1]

First I owe every apology. It was supposed to say The way I look at it. external is _ and internal is_. I messed up the typing and did not review to correct it. Internal= is just inside the body. Nothing more internal than your skeleton.


Now after that bingo. Sanjuro and everyone else seems to understand what I am saying.

Trying to type things in a way that everyone understands what I am saying seems to be more difficult for me than i thought. So many have different understanding of Wing Chun or TCM terminology in general I try to avoid using them and it seems cant be clear or precise in English either.

The basics being if your body does not work in harmony, unified etc etc nothing else you do will ever work the way its really supposed to. Yes people can make themselves functional or more while still not using body structure but they will always be short of what they could obtain

Chi is whole other subject. if you look at it as breath training then most wing chun people that punch fast don't use it because they hold their breath when they are punching. Most power lifters do use it because they coordinate their movement with their breath.

Chi, internal external names don't matter all humans have it , can build and train it and they do and often with out even having names for it.

[YouKnowWho]

Thanks! What about the 'abstract' ones?
I prefer to develop skill on the body instead of in my head. To wait for your brain to give order to your body is just too slow. The order should come from your "spin nerve (subconscious reflection)" instead. What you think you have is not what you truly have. Whatever that can come out of your body without the mind involved is truly what you have. When your opponent attacks you, your body respond naturally and you suddently realize that your opponent is down under your knee. To me, that's the true TCMA ability. I prefer to train my mind to be "blank" instead of

- 心与意合，xin yu yi he, Heart harmonizes with the Intent
- 意与气合，yi yu qi he, Intent harmonizes with the Qi
- 气与力合；qi yu li he, Qi harmonizes with the power/strength.

This way, even I'm drunk, I can still be able to defend myself if needed.

[YouKnowWho]

Internal= is just inside the body.

A simple example can explain "don't use muscle" quite easily. Let's take the Karate "block and punch" as example. Your blocking arm should be like to "raise the curtain", and you punch is like to enter your body under that curtain. Your body "push" your arm in training, and your body "chase" your arm in combat.

[nasmedicine]

"Don't use muscle" was one of those mantras at the first WC school I studied in. It was always a bit puzzling to me because without muscle, we couldn't even hold our heads up let alone do kung fu. I came to understand that it means "use structure to generate power".

Is "don't use muscle" something that's been highly emphasized for others as well?

Don't use muscle = Use proper body mechanics and physics (muscle use is always apparent just in as small of an amount as possible, otherwise you would not be able to move or stand or breath. "use 10 lbs to overcome 100 lbs")

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I believe that the issue is not that one should not use muscle but is instead that one must use muscle properly. As others have already pointed out there are many ways to do things, but all movement requires the use of muscle.

I think that the idea is to connect your body, and its various segments, from many parts which are seperate, to many parts working in concert. This unification of the body and use of the bodies structure is what allows one to generate great power.

Consider applying a pak to an opponents punch using the arm and shoulder alone. Now compare that to applying the same movement but using ones body movement/structure. With a step into the opponent where the pak acts more as a guide you may find you are capable of moving a much larger person off of the line.

Lowering ones center allows greater power generation without an increase in muscle or strength. It just takes getting everyting working together as a unit.

[Lee Chiang Po]

"Don't use muscle" was one of those mantras at the first WC school I studied in. It was always a bit puzzling to me because without muscle, we couldn't even hold our heads up let alone do kung fu. I came to understand that it means "use structure to generate power".

Is "don't use muscle" something that's been highly emphasized for others as well?

I am not even going to pretend that I know what your sifu was meaning when he said that, but it is a concept that is common to Wing Chun. It has nothing to do with skeletons and tendons or even muscles. It is a simple concept really, and nothing so deep and complicated should be read into it. By not using muscle has nothing to do with internal or external or generating power. It is just so simple. Lets take a simple block. You never try to block a kick or punch. Never meet brute force with brute force. If so, then the most brutish will always win. The skill part of this comes in that rather than trying to block a force with force, you redirect or parry it off to the side. You can try this simply by letting someone place their fist in the palm of your hand and then try to stop them from pushing through with their fist. You can only do it if you are stronger than he is. Now, simply push the fist off to the side as it tries to pass through, and you find very little resistance. By taking the path of less resistance if you will. This is the Wing Chun way of things.
Now, having said all that, strength is very important. Even if using the path of least resistance, you will find even less resistance if you are strong. Strength is a factor that should be considered in any event.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello,

I believe that the issue is not that one should not use muscle but is instead that one must use muscle properly. As others have already pointed out there are many ways to do things, but all movement requires the use of muscle.

I think that the idea is to connect your body, and its various segments, from many parts which are seperate, to many parts working in concert. This unification of the body and use of the bodies structure is what allows one to generate great power.

Consider applying a pak to an opponents punch using the arm and shoulder alone. Now compare that to applying the same movement but using ones body movement/structure. With a step into the opponent where the pak acts more as a guide you may find you are capable of moving a much larger person off of the line.

Lowering ones center allows greater power generation without an increase in muscle or strength. It just takes getting everyting working together as a unit.

Now couple that WITH strength and then you have one awesome fighter.

[Niersun]

Do not use muscle doesnt make sense.

He probably meant do not fight force with force. I.e. if he is pulling you, do not pull back.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Do not use muscle doesnt make sense.

He probably meant do not fight force with force. I.e. if he is pulling you, do not pull back.

For sure, of course NO MA ever advocates force VS force or to rely purely on strength.

[Sihing73]

Now couple that WITH strength and then you have one awesome fighter.

Thanks, but I am really not that awesome ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

Alot of stuff in wing chun is common fighting knowledge...

Its just the wording is all wrong.


Upon impact you tighten the fist. But not while your arm is being shot out at your opponent.

Imagine your arm is like a whip. You throw the whip out but the whip is not stiff or hard it goes out relax. But when the whip cracks the target, ie flesh it does so with great damage and impact. Imagine your fist are inceniaries bullets. Your body is the gun. You thrust your fist at your opponent upon impact the bullets explode. But the bullet doesn't change at all while in the air. its still in its natrual state. You launch or thrust your fist at your opponent but do not tense up because it cause you to slow down or loose velocity. The power inpart comes from the speed or velocity at which you thrust your fist.


The snap at end comes when you make contact tighen your fist upon impact. If your fist remains loose you will hurt your hand. Try this on wall bag first. The wall bag teaches you how to punch correctly. If your doing it wrong your wrist will be sore.


Relax your joints. thrust your fist out like a shock put or ball being thrown in the air.

just my two cents!




"Don't use muscle" was one of those mantras at the first WC school I studied in. It was always a bit puzzling to me because without muscle, we couldn't even hold our heads up let alone do kung fu. I came to understand that it means "use structure to generate power".

Is "don't use muscle" something that's been highly emphasized for others as well?