Teaching in a Park [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Yao Sing

03-01-2012, 06:04 PM

mooyingmantis

03-01-2012, 06:32 PM

Back in the 70s and early 80s I taught in a park in Ft. Wayne, Indiana. I loved it!

In June I will be heading to China to study with a well-known Mantis instructor. He teaches in a park. Nuff said!

-N-

03-01-2012, 06:44 PM

Yes on the park. No fees or donations, but the students do very well in remembering birthdays and xmas.

Mainly, we take payment in sweat and discipline. Pay up or gtfo!

And none of that, "I'm paying, so I'll tell you what I want to learn."

Snipsky

03-01-2012, 10:15 PM

Given the time and energy I put into students, I can't afford to trade so much of my life for such little money. I invest in them only to the degree that they invest in themselves.

Martial arts has taught me to respect and manage energy. The most efficient way to do this is the only take students who have a good heart and who who think differently enough to contribute to my understanding.

The cost of my tuition depends entirely upon the student.

After a trial period I may accept and the amount of money is clearly marked out based on how long they can hold a proper horse stance. 5 minutes of horse stance costs a great deal more than 40 min.

The students I have now are exceptionally high quality. I admire all of them and trust them completely. The ones who left leave me with no regret or resentment.

Rotten wood can't be carved. Its not the wood's fault, the fault is with the carpenter for picking the wrong wood.

OH MY?!?!?!? Holy Load of malarky........you win!

xinyidizi

03-01-2012, 11:24 PM

With the economy the way it is how do you avoid having a class full of non-donating students?

You could tell them it's based on donations but somehow suggest a range for what you normally expect. This way people who can pay will have a have better idea about the tuition fee and at the same time people who can't afford it will know that they can still discuss their situation with you.

MasterKiller

03-02-2012, 07:15 AM

If the teacher has no equipment costs, no supplies costs, no insurance costs, or any other overhead costs to run classes, the classes should be cheap. If some guy is charging you $85 to learn forms in his backyard 2 hours a week, walk away.

$10/month is about the maximum you should kick in for something like that. If he's not going to run classes like a professional teacher, he shouldn't be charging like a professional teacher.

Yao Sing

03-02-2012, 10:38 AM

I was paying $12 per class for Yoga. I don't know what it cost him for the room we used or if it was donated a couple days a week for a few hours. He would sell blocks of lessons for a discount but they had to be used within a certain time period.

I've also done some Tai Chi from a Chinese guy in a parking garage for a five dollar donation per class.

$10 a month hardly seems worth it to me. I can understand a higher cost to pay for equipment and overhead but the real value is what the instruction is worth.

Without overhead do you really think learning CMA is only worth a dollar or two a class?

MasterKiller

03-02-2012, 11:02 AM

Without overhead do you really think learning CMA is only worth a dollar or two a class?

I charge $50/month for three 2-hr classes a week. That's $2.08/hour for my time, and I have a gym full of proper equipment.

ShaolinDan

03-02-2012, 11:17 AM

I charge $50/month for three 2-hr classes a week. That's $2.08/hour for my time, and I have a gym full of proper equipment.

That's about half of what most fighting gyms seem to be charging.
Of course the more students you have, the less you can charge per student.
With just a few students, it's almost like a private lesson--more personal instruction time--> greater cost/value.

Figure what you're willing to teach for, divide by number of students...then compromise. :)

Depending who your students (or their parents) are, trading time for time might be an option as well.

Yao Sing

03-02-2012, 12:17 PM

I don't know the current rates around here but $100 a month is probably about average. Certainly teaching a couple of neighborhood kids for $2 a class is just not worth it to me.

BTW, this isn't just a spare time activity. I'm forced to find alternate sources of money so the few skills I have will each have to bring in enough to pay the bills.

crazyfistmonk

03-02-2012, 03:05 PM

First, I don't teach kids. I have a policy to refer them to the local ITF Tae Kwon Do school. Secondly, I teach out of my garage which has been converted into my personal gym/gwoon. I accept only a few serious students at a time and have, on occasion, turned students away. Because I don't attempt to earn a living from teaching, money is not a motivating factor. I do charge a nominal monthly fee, but I also expect my students to work and contribute to earn their martial education. Plus, my students are very good about observing traditional etiquette and frequently bring me food, gifts, etc. to show their appreciation and respect. My gym is open every night from 5pm-11pm and my students are welcome to come and train whenever they like. However, they need to prove their commitment and are only given what they are willing to put in. Likewise, senior students are responsible for nearly all of a newer student's initial instruction. I'm usually there, in and out, but I am far more hands on with my senior students who have put in the time and effort to earn their training. Because money is not a motivating factor, if a student can't cut it, it matters little if they leave and don't come back. I don't advertise. New students are typically recommended by an existing student who brings them in. We are a very close group, and I end up with some very loyal, dedicated students this way.

Grumblegeezer

03-02-2012, 03:06 PM

I teach a small group at a public park, twice a week for a total time amounting to about 3 1/2 to 4 hrs. There's no rent or insurance, but I do provide basic stuff like focus mitts, a wall bag, kicking shield, and sparring gear. I also have to pay monthly instructor's license fee, and personally cover all membership fees and testing fees to our national assn. For that I charge a flat rate of $40 per month ...which, incidently is exactly what I pay my own instructor (in a different system) who teaches in a park too. Even with almost no overhead, at this price I'm basically just breaking even. If I rented indoor space I'd have to charge more, teach shorter classes and get more students. For now I prefer the park.

Now as far as dues... I never turn anybody away because they can't pay. Still the guys are really good about paying. They know my costs and try to help out.

SPJ

03-02-2012, 07:19 PM

1. the space and the weather are limiting factors for teaching a group of people in the park.

2. If you could reserve a community club house indoor, it is better.

Usually you pay a nominal rental of the room, due to the fact that you pay monthly association fee already.

3. If you do a lot of throwing practice, a good mattress is necessary.

Maybe indoor is better for this.

4. Yes you may bring along mittens, bags, pads to the park. It is better that let the students bring their own. due to personal hygiene etc.

---

Since everyone shares the park, we have to sort of designate a circle of area by placing some safety cones around your practice area.

we do not want to hurt passersby by accident.

--

5. My brothers would place a desk with fliers of school info and sign up sheets. They get a lot of new students this way in the park.

:)

YouKnowWho

03-02-2012, 08:17 PM

1. the space and the weather are limiting factors for teaching a group of people in the park.

To practice in heavy rain is very important life experience training. If you have eaten toilet paper mixed in water, everything will taste good for the rest of your life.

mooyingmantis

03-02-2012, 09:08 PM

Training in parks is also great for networking. You never know who is watching and the other martial artists you may meet. It is a great way to find others with which to cross train. :)

MasterKiller

03-02-2012, 09:53 PM

Plus, my students are very good about observing traditional etiquette and frequently bring me food, gifts, etc. to show their appreciation and respect. ....However, they need to prove their commitment and are only given what they are willing to put in. Likewise, senior students are responsible for nearly all of a newer student's initial instruction. I'm usually there, in and out, but I am far more hands on with my senior students who have put in the time and effort to earn their training. .
This is ridiculous. If they pay you, you teach them. If they wanted to learn from your sh1tty senior students, they would pay them instead.

All the other bullsh1t with bringing you food and you refusing to teach new people, etc... is just preposterous.

If you open a public school, even if it's in your garage, you should act like a professional teacher and not some movie caricature of what you think a Sifu is supposed to be like.

crazyfistmonk

03-02-2012, 10:26 PM

MK...
As hard as it may be for you to believe, I don't consider your opinion before I do things, especially when it comes to training and teaching. That's the problem...far too much catering to students' whims because they're paying the bills.
Good luck with your own training and teaching methods. Our dialogue here is finished.

hskwarrior

03-02-2012, 11:47 PM

xinyidizi

03-03-2012, 04:20 AM

I don't know anything about how the things are in western countries and how western people think about Chinese traditions but crazyfistmonk's way is the method most of the high level teachers in China use in their classes. In our class senior students who have been training for 10~20 years train the beginners but the shifu also spends some time training us at the beginning and the end of each class. Altogether I think that it's a very efficient method as sometimes the senior students can fill in the huge gap between beginners and a shifu who has trained for 50 plus years.

YouKnowWho

03-03-2012, 07:51 AM

This is ridiculous. If they pay you, you teach them. If they wanted to learn from your sh1tty senior students, they would pay them instead.

I had watched many TCMA teachers taught their class in the park. Their senior students did the teaching and correction for the 1 hour and 1/2. For the last 1/2 hour, the teacher stood up and checked and corrected each students. One advantage for this approach is the teacher will teach his senior students "how to teach" which is a good thing for the future generation.

I don't know anything about how the things are in western countries.
In Kempo Karate schools, the beginnerd even have to sign on their contracts that they will need to teach other beginners so many hours in order for them to be promoted to the next color belt.

MasterKiller

03-03-2012, 05:01 PM

MK,

CFM does it the old school way. I know exactly of what he's talking about because the same thing happened at my teachers school. students bought things for sifu, dropped off some food for the family and so on. I would even drop by my sigungs place before he passed to bring him a chicken.

When i was at my sifu's school I often trained the new students too. Sifu would come around and check what they learned after.

Don't come down on homeboy too hard....i lived what he mentioned. its just the old school way.

Who cares? In this day and age, and especially when you ARE NOT IN CHINA, its 'sifus' like this that keep people really interested in fighting away. You basically cater to LARPers and fringe sociopaths who feel the need as adults to have another adult rule over them from a high teaching pedestal. Adults bring you food because you yell at them while they stand in horse stance? Get over yourself, bro!

My disgust for instructors like this is why my students call me 'coach.'

If you see the Buddha in the road, kill that bast@rd.

Syn7

03-03-2012, 05:01 PM

I charge $50/month for three 2-hr classes a week. That's $2.08/hour for my time, and I have a gym full of proper equipment.

So do you only work 6 hours a week as an MA instructor and have another job? or do you have so many students that you have to run simultaneous curriculum and are busy all week?

I was under the impression you were full time instructor.

hskwarrior

03-03-2012, 05:07 PM

Adults bring you food because you yell at them while they stand in horse stance? Get over yourself, bro!

get over myself? for real? :confused: its like that? :confused:

MasterKiller

03-03-2012, 05:28 PM

So do you only work 6 hours a week as an MA instructor and have another job? or do you have so many students that you have to run simultaneous curriculum and are busy all week?

I was under the impression you were full time instructor.

I run 3 structured classes/week. The other nights are 'open mat' where people come and go as they please. I also have a day job, so money is never a motivating factor in how I teach.

Pork Chop

03-03-2012, 05:52 PM

get over myself? for real? :confused: its like that? :confused:

I don't think it was you specifically. I think he meant any teacher that demands that sort of treatment.

The last time I trained in an actual kwoon, I think my sifu showed me maybe 1 or 2 things himself in the 2+ years I was there. Everything else was taught by 1 of 3 or 4 seniors (maybe more). Thing is, my senior classmates were really good and established in their own rights, with their own reputations - so I was happy to learn from them. Usually conflicts were no big deal, you just did it the way the particular senior who you were talking to wanted it. The only time I had any trouble was on one occasion when 2 of the seniors had a conflicting viewpoint, I had sided with one of the seniors, and later sifu sided with the other.

We did the traditional etiquette with food and tea in the restaurant as well. Unfortunately for me, I was pretty much the lowest ranking student the entire 2+ years I was there. LOL

MasterKiller

03-03-2012, 05:53 PM

get over myself? for real? :confused: its like that? :confused:

Well, not you in particular, but if you are one of these guys who feels students should be so grateful to you for allowing them to PAY for lessons that you expect them to bring you free chicken sandwiches, then it is what it is.

The difference is, I'm grateful people come to me to teach them...

hskwarrior

03-03-2012, 08:02 PM

Well, not you in particular, but if you are one of these guys who feels students should be so grateful to you for allowing them to PAY for lessons that you expect them to bring you free chicken sandwiches, then it is what it is.

Since you don't really know how i feel about it, YOU should get over yourself, BRO. LOL just sayin :rolleyes:

if you would have asked how i feel about it, you would have discovered we share the same thoughts on certain things. but personally, i don't see a problem with the way i was taught, trained or how my sifu ran his school. I've witnessed many many people feeding my sifu, doing errands for him, and so on. Although i don't ask this of my students i WILL ask my senior students to teach the newer ones. WHY? to give them teaching experience. to make sure they are able to effectively relate the correct things.

It is what it is.

omarthefish

03-04-2012, 03:11 AM

Who cares? In this day and age, and especially when you ARE NOT IN CHINA, its 'sifus' like this that keep people really interested in fighting away. You basically cater to LARPers and fringe sociopaths who feel the need as adults to have another adult rule over them from a high teaching pedestal. Adults bring you food because you yell at them while they stand in horse stance? Get over yourself, bro!

My disgust for instructors like this is why my students call me 'coach.'

If you see the Buddha in the road, kill that bast@rd.

OTOH, it's not really possible for someone to make a living as a full time martial arts instructor without delegating most of the teaching out to assistant instructors. Since, as you just posted, you have a day job and this teaching thing is just something you do on the side, it's not such an issue.

Honestly, how much one on one time does anyone have with any of the big name instuctors out there that are running large schools? Just do the math. If you have 50+ students in your school at any given time, trying to take full responsibility for all the teaching 1 to 1 is a fools errand.

There's no need to interpret it as some sort of neo-confucian kiss arse nonsense. As to bringing the occasional gift of food or whatever...heaven forbid you should create a sense of family and community on your school! :eek:

Pork Chop

03-04-2012, 07:33 AM

There's no need to interpret it as some sort of neo-confucian kiss arse nonsense. As to bringing the occasional gift of food or whatever...heaven forbid you should create a sense of family and community on your school! :eek:

Isn't that also kind of a buddhist thing? Monks live off of the donations of others; the begging showing the removal of ego in acceptance, the giving a sign of compassion. In exchange, the monks offer teachings & prayers to the lay people.

With a kung fu sifu, I would imagine this would be symbolic of a similar student-teacher relationship.

East-Asian culture in general has different etiquette regarding gifts than the States.
There are certain social obligations that are different than what is standard in in American culture, but not entirely absent: gifts for birthdays, Christmas, Valentine's day, Halloween, and Easter.

On the other hand, back to the topic of being taught by an instructor vs his students; I've always been of the mind that having a good gym/kwoon/camp is more important than the head instructor/sifu/coach. Iron sharpens iron. I'd rather be working with a team of "assistants," each giving one-on-one time, than a single head instructor who has to divide his attention 20 ways.

MasterKiller

03-04-2012, 07:47 AM

There's no need to interpret it as some sort of neo-confucian kiss arse nonsense. As to bringing the occasional gift of food or whatever...heaven forbid you should create a sense of family and community on your school! :eek:

That's exactly what CMF described. It's not people helping out and bringing a pie once in a while; he EXPECTS others to do all the work an cotow for the knowledge he probably earned himself in a Colorado strip mall.

I buy the food for our cookouts. I give my students free tshirts, wristbands, etc...whenever I can. Because the Students, not the Teacher, are the lifeblood of the school. Once in a while someone bakes me something for a holiday, etc.... But I sure as hell would never expect adults who pay for my lessons to feed me on a regular basis.

You want to talk about Family? That's how a family works. The head of the household provides. You don't send your 12 y/o out to mow lawns to earn money for your dinner because you yourself are too arrogant to work.

xinyidizi

03-04-2012, 08:28 AM

The confucian culture in China(as long as it's not overdone) is actually one of the things that has impressed me about this country. In a Chinese family the ranking of each individual and his/her responsibilities towards the other family members is very clear and it helps the unity and the harmony of the family. I have learned a lot about the relationship between people from living in China and it has improved my relationship with my parents and friends a lot. I think the same is true for a kung fu club as these traditions keep the unity of the class and give you a ton of opportunities to meet Kung fu brothers and uncles who would treat you as one of their own and would teach you their experience. Having a huge family like this is not something that can be bought just by money, there are many other factors involved for keeping it this way and occasionally bringing gifts and running errands for the shifu is the least one student can do to show his respect.

crazyfistmonk

03-04-2012, 09:53 AM

MasterKiller

03-04-2012, 10:14 AM

My money is on CFM either being a product of Shaolin Do or CSC.

hskwarrior

03-04-2012, 10:18 AM

As to bringing the occasional gift of food or whatever...heaven forbid you should create a sense of family and community on your school!

THAT! THAT is what its all about right there!!!!

Sure. some Sifu's can dangle things from the system he or she may know you want to learn. Sure, the Sifu may ask you do something for him or her. BUT i've never ......NOT ONCE in my thirty years of gung fu study known a sifu to say "if you want this or that you MUST pay my bills, feed my family, or do as i tell you". Well, there is one sifu who used to make his students sell AMWAY.....but thats another story.

In my sifu's school, it was never a rule that you HAD to do something for him. People did things for him out of complete respect for him. WE NEVER FELT OBLIGED. we just DID. Many of his students would do things. In fact, my sifu did it for his late sifu and is still doing it for his current Sifu. its called tradition. and i'm quite sure ALL of my classmates aren't Drain Bamaged and can make their own decisions to do it or to deny it.

having a sifu is like having a second father. Those kind of people who just wouldn't do the things mentioned in this thread makes me wonder just how good do you take care of your REAL PARENTS? If they needed something would you shut them out and go find new parents? How dare your parents ask for something, right? :rolleyes:

We ALL will have different perspectives, experiences, morals, attitudes and such. this is great because it feels good to be an individual. Yet, to judge someone who will WILLINGLY take care of their sifu, teacher or whatever in a harsh light in MY opinion is TOTALLY WRONG. I don't judge those who WON'T take care of their sifu, thats THEIR choice.

IDK, i just feel that when you ignore tradition, you shut out alot of other things as well. JUST MY OPINION OTOH, I'M SURE THERE ARE SIFU AND PAST SIFU WHO DID THIS INTENTIONALLY TO GULLIBLE NON CHINESE.

wenshu

03-04-2012, 10:22 AM

Don't be too hard on MK; he makes assumptions and draws conclusions based on his own interpretation of others' statements. It's a character flaw. Some deep-seated, unresolved issues with his parents, I suspect.
There will always be those who buck traditional etiquette and values in favor of what they perceive as development. Without people like MK there would be nothing to contrast correct behavior against.
In other words, don't cast your pearls before swine. They don't know the difference between pearls and corn, and you'll just end-up looking the fool.

After all, as an obviously wiser man than any of us once said, "It is what it is".

No. He's just being realistic. No need to attack his character because he thinks people shouldn't be taken advantage of.

This isn't China. Guanxi is defined and cultivated differently in the West. We don't place emphasis on formalized gift giving and the Chinese expats teaching in the U.S know this and adjust their expectations of western students accordingly. In China they were expected to do shifu's laundry in fulfillment of 尊师重道 (zun shi zhong dao) but in many cases that shifu was their primary guardian so it was as if caring for a parent. That doesn't make a lot of sense for people who train less than a dozen hours a week.

What happens all to often in the west is some white guy starts calling himself a shifu and demanding gifts and tribute from students in exchange for what is at best questionable material. Not only do they not have any legitimate skills to pass on but they dishonor these cultural observances by employing them as nothing more than a scam with which to demand fealty from gullible, easily impressionable students who are often desperate for an authority figure to mentor them. The Busted Martial Artists (http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48947&highlight=busted+martial+artists) thread is filled with examples of the abuse of this relationship.

Judging by the performance of his students and the amount of instruction for the price MK is practically operating a charity.

SPJ

03-04-2012, 11:46 AM

In the US

one on one or personal trainer is popular

for weight loss

for yoga

for tai cheeze

for kung fu

etc etc.

kool.

:cool:

YouKnowWho

03-04-2012, 01:03 PM

In the US, one on one or personal trainer is popular...
I don't teach one on one. Since I don't teach solo forms, To let my solo student to use me as his throwing dummy, he just doesn't pay me enough for that. :D

MasterKiller

03-04-2012, 01:44 PM

having a sifu is like having a second father. Those kind of people who just wouldn't do the things mentioned in this thread makes me wonder just how good do you take care of your REAL PARENTS? If they needed something would you shut them out and go find new parents? How dare your parents ask for something, right? :rolleyes:.

Adults who come to a Kung Fu class looking for a 2nd dad need to spend less time in horse stance and more time in therapy.

hskwarrior

03-04-2012, 01:53 PM

Adults who come to a Kung Fu class looking for a 2nd dad need to spend less time in horse stance and more time in therapy.

I have been with my sifu since i was 14 years old dude. I'd hate to see how you treat your father in law. on the real. It makes me wonder how you treat your sifu as well. but thats YOU and not me. You're entitled to your own way of thinking as is everyone else.

I thinks its time you get off the horse.....no ones talking about doing the horse. AT ALL. :confused::confused::confused:

you have no REAL DEEP connection or passion for anything huh? if you do, what is THAT passion? ALL martial artist who have teachers have second fathers in them. YOUR teacher raised YOU from your gung fu birth to teaching his system, owning your own place. he is equivalent to your father in that respect. I hope i don't come off as an ungrateful student cause right or wrong my sifu taught me ALOT.

MasterKiller

03-04-2012, 02:38 PM

I have been with my sifu since i was 14 years old dude. I'd hate to see how you treat your father in law. on the real. It makes me wonder how you treat your sifu as well. but thats YOU and not me. You're entitled to your own way of thinking as is everyone else.

I thinks its time you get off the horse.....no ones talking about doing the horse. AT ALL. :confused::confused::confused:

you have no REAL DEEP connection or passion for anything huh? if you do, what is THAT passion? ALL martial artist who have teachers have second fathers in them. YOUR teacher raised YOU from your gung fu birth to teaching his system, owning your own place. he is equivalent to your father in that respect. I hope i don't come off as an ungrateful student cause right or wrong my sifu taught me ALOT.

If adults are PAYING you for classes, you aren't their daddy. You don't get to boss them around. You don't get to make them mow your lawn or bake you a chicken.

If you want to foster a familial group and try to preserve some outdated and frankly misinterpreted notion of tradition, then your students shouldn't pay you a dime. They should live in your house and do all your chores and in return you teach them.

Once you open your doors to the public and start charging, even if you're in the park, you should lose all the bullsh1t and just teach people what you are getting paid to teach them.

That doesn't mean you can't like each other, or mutually respect one another. But for Christ's sake drop the pretense and just get on with the business of helping people learn to fight and stay healthy.

hskwarrior

03-04-2012, 02:52 PM

If adults are PAYING you for classes, you aren't their daddy. You don't get to boss them around. You don't get to make them mow your lawn or bake you a chicken.

Have you been to this kind of school?

If you want to foster a familial group and try to preserve some outdated and frankly misinterpreted notion of tradition, then your students shouldn't pay you a dime. They should live in your house and do all your chores and in return you teach them.

Thats your entitled way to think.

Once you open your doors to the public and start charging, even if you're in the park, you should lose all the bullsh1t and just teach people what you are getting paid to teach them.

I think there's like a cultural difficulty here. I love SF. :D

That doesn't mean you can't like each other, or mutually respect one another. But for Christ's sake drop the pretense and just get on with the business of helping people learn to fight and stay healthy.

yeah i feel culture clash for sure. :D

Well, i can say this much with pretty much 100% confidence, no matter how much you may hate that idea, nothing YOU can do will stop it from happening. so stop being mad at it. If you don't want to follow that tradition....don't. Other will for sure. Others won't. I'm past all that. its just an after thought for me.

wenshu

03-04-2012, 05:50 PM

Washing shifu's drawers and bringing him his dinner isn't an authentic traditional kung fo relationship.

Getting beaten like a red headed step child is.

crazyfistmonk

03-04-2012, 06:34 PM

HSKW hit the proverbial nail on the head; although he's clearly wasting his breath and energy on someone who's sole intention is to level personal attacks at someone he knows absolutely nothing about. I don't need to attack MK's character or misrepresent and misquote his statements. For one, it serves no purpose, as anyone possessing anything above an adolescent mentality has better things to do with their time. Second, whatever personal issues MK has are his and his alone to work through and to eventually come to grips with. I have been misquoted several times over and conclusions have been drawn based solely on opinion and personal agenda with absolutely no truth to back them up. Yet, I've kept my mouth shut and have allowed MK to demonstrate through his own words and actions where his value system really lies. I could pick apart the blatant inconsistencies in almost every single statement he has made like so much overcooked chicken, but I choose not to because the bottom line is this: I don't care what someone posting on a public forum has to say about me personally. It doesn't matter. Until he makes the mistake of showing up on the doorstep of my Gym with his seriously flawed attitude in tow, nothing he says carries any weight or has any merit to it, whatsoever. There are numerous blowhards like MK in this world. Eventually, what they put out comes back to them in spades, often breaking them completely, or leaving them even more bitter, jaded, and hateful than they were to begin with. By typing so much as a single word I've already given MK far more attention than he deserves. Of course, the accusations, assumptions, and provocations will continue to fly if for no other reason than he simply doesn't know any better.

I'll let him continue to sink his own ship, because as far as I'm concerned, MK is an afterthought and this thread is closed.

MasterKiller

03-04-2012, 07:40 PM

CFM is a white boy trained by a white boy trained by non-Chinese, yet somehow feels obligated to act FOB. What a riot.

hskwarrior

03-04-2012, 07:47 PM

CFM is a white boy trained by a white boy trained by non-Chinese, yet somehow feels obligated to act like FOB. What a riot.

so you know CFM?

MasterKiller

03-04-2012, 07:48 PM

so you know CFM?

Brother, this cat is a dime a dozen.

hskwarrior

03-04-2012, 07:57 PM

Brother, this cat is a dime a dozen.

I can't speak for him, but he seems to be a little better than some of the nuts in our peanut gallery. go light man. you seem a little wound up....tryin to hut ma feewings n all dat shtuff........:D

MasterKiller

03-04-2012, 08:15 PM

I can't speak for him, but he seems to be a little better than some of the nuts in our peanut gallery. go light man. you seem a little wound up....tryin to hut ma feewings n all dat shtuff........:D

You were wearing a silk kung fu suit when typed that, weren't you?

hskwarrior

03-04-2012, 08:29 PM

You were wearing a silk kung fu suit when typed that, weren't you?

I only wear the silk kong poo suit when i'm bout ta get ma sexies on for da night....:D

you weren't naked except for your leather chaps when you asked that were you?
put some glasses on him and he looks alot like you bro....LOL

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kbJYfR8kDfY/TjBoYnowEdI/AAAAAAAAKC8/EoXJO93mSQg/s1600/unisex-biker-cowboy-leather-effect-chaps-150-p.jpg

YouKnowWho

03-04-2012, 09:27 PM

having a sifu is like having a second father.

This go both ways. Can you become a good 2nd father for your student? If he

- commits some crime, will you be able to hide him in your house, or give him cash so he can be on the run?
- is in jail, will you be able to bail him out?
- ...

If a teacher doesn't want to have that kind of commitment, he will not be qualified to be the 2nd father.

Brule

03-05-2012, 07:30 AM

Some people watch too many movies and take them as truth. If you're an adult, act like one. If you choose to teach, don't expect gifts froom your students. You should expect them to pay the fees and do the work in being a better MA or get in shape, whatever their goal was in the first place. You're not there to coddle anyone. And to the thing about senior students teaching, hey, they know more than you, so learn from them.

Xian

03-05-2012, 08:41 AM

diego

03-07-2012, 12:36 PM

That's exactly what CMF described. It's not people helping out and bringing a pie once in a while; he EXPECTS others to do all the work an cotow for the knowledge he probably earned himself in a Colorado strip mall.

I buy the food for our cookouts. I give my students free tshirts, wristbands, etc...whenever I can. Because the Students, not the Teacher, are the lifeblood of the school. Once in a while someone bakes me something for a holiday, etc.... But I sure as hell would never expect adults who pay for my lessons to feed me on a regular basis.

You want to talk about Family? That's how a family works. The head of the household provides. You don't send your 12 y/o out to mow lawns to earn money for your dinner because you yourself are too arrogant to work.
Yeah my sifu usually brings pork and sweet buns for the younger students to snack on in case they are lacking energy..my sifu would rather me warm up for an hour than ****ing bake him a cake...he owns real estate he can go to the Bakery...:D

sanjuro_ronin

03-07-2012, 12:57 PM

Washing shifu's drawers and bringing him his dinner isn't an authentic traditional kung fo relationship.

Getting beaten like a red headed step child is.

There it is !!

Lucas

03-07-2012, 01:09 PM

dont forget that he'll point out all your deficiencies, never offer praise more than a 'mmmm' sound on rare occasions, scowl constantly, tell you to move faster and have more power without fail, shake his head everytime you look for approval, smile and laugh only when you make mistakes, and most importantly he'll make pain your constant companion.

David Jamieson

03-07-2012, 01:10 PM

This go both ways. Can you become a good 2nd father for your student? If he

- commits some crime, will you be able to hide him in your house, or give him cash so he can be on the run?
- is in jail, will you be able to bail him out?
- ...

If a teacher doesn't want to have that kind of commitment, he will not be qualified to be the 2nd father.

No. Fathering does not include aiding and abetting crimes or becoming a criminal yourself. Fathering is to teach not to be involved with crime on that front, to cultivate personal integrity and to take responsibility for ones actions and to be held accountable for them.

As a father, you will help him to understand that he must make the correction and reverse his criminal activity and start cultivating a better person within himself.

If in Jail, then depending on circumstance, yes, giving assurance or bail is ok. It still doesn't release the student from being in need of the lessons of accountability and responsibility.

You commit to the person, not their foolish behaviours. As a father, it behooves you to make attempts at correcting improper behaviours and instilling good behaviours.

a father isn't a cohort or partner in crime. It is a position of authority and guidance and of course love.

sanjuro_ronin

03-07-2012, 01:12 PM

hskwarrior

03-07-2012, 01:30 PM

i STILL WANNA KNOW WHICH TEACHER ACTUALLY TELLS HIS STUDENTS NOT TO SHOW UP UNLESS THEY BROUGHT A GIFT? WHO THE FUK IS THAT?

IF I BROUGHT MY SIFU SOME FOOD IT WAS BECAUSE I WANTED TO DO IT. IF HE DOES IT FOR HIS SIFU, WHO THE FUK ARE WE TO TELL SOMEONE ELSE WHO DOES THINGS LIKE THIS OUT OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL IS WRONG?

HAVING FREE WILL MEANS YOU CAN DO IT OR CHOOSE NOT TO DO IT. SO FUKIN WHAT THERE ARE STUDENTS WHO TAKE CARE OF THEIR TEACHERS? SMELLS LIKE JEALOUSY TO ME :D

Brule

03-07-2012, 01:46 PM

Smells like someone hit a nerve. Not sure anyone is saying the teacher tells the students that he wants a combo #2 with a side salad before he comes to the next class, i think it has more to do with the student thinking this is what he should do in order to be 'in' and get the goods. Of course, there may be those who expect some KFC and sometimes, when the expectation is there, it manifests itself in other ways.

Lucas

03-07-2012, 01:56 PM

****, do we all have the same father? er teacher....

Its the reason why we are all such classy, outstanding individuals.

hskwarrior

03-07-2012, 02:01 PM

Nah, not mad. i just think its no ones business if a students wants to do something for his or her sifu. no students HAVE TO do anything. even when they pay they don't HAVE TO show up. but they do.

the idea of doing something for your teacher upsets or disturbs some people is silly as fuk.

one of my students knows i LOVE ME SOME PASKRAMI SAMMICHES.....and regularly asks if i would like one from the place he goes to. sheeeeeet.....i gets hooked up!

sanjuro_ronin

03-07-2012, 02:11 PM

Its the reason why we are all such classy, outstanding individuals.

* stops banging hooker in ass *

That's right my brother !

*goes back to banging hooker*

-N-

03-07-2012, 06:52 PM

East-Asian culture in general has different etiquette regarding gifts than the States.

Yes on the etiquette. Not that I expect or require it.

One kid asked to join the class. He brought a gift of oranges and noodles - symbolizing wishes of wealth and long life.

His parents saw traditional kung fu being taught semi privately at the park. They wanted him to learn, and they taught him how to introduce himself and pay his respects.

I can get my own oranges and noodles, but that etiquette let me know about his character and what kind of family he came from, and helped to let me know if I should take him as a student.

Shaolin

03-07-2012, 10:28 PM

Anyone teaching in a park, home, garage or similar for donations only?

I'm wondering how it works out for you? I've taken Tai Chi in a parking garage for donation. With the economy the way it is how do you avoid having a class full of non-donating students?

Obviously I'm considering doing this (to make a few dollars). I've had neighbor's in the past wanting me to teach their kids. The best I could do now would be very informal class but asking for a donation for my time.

Thoughts?

In my opinion if you're meeting at a park, home, garage 3 times per week for about an hour/hour and a half charge about $50 per month. Don't do donations because if people can get something for free they will and they won't have a tendency to be loyal; not everyone just most.

Some comments have been made about if you're teaching in a situation like this you don't have overhead and should charge next to nothing. This is false. Gas is an overhead expense, vehicle maintenance and upkeep is an overhead, if you supply the training equipment such as hitting/kicking pads, training weapons, grappling mats. Do you still pay for training with an instructor? Overhead expense. And if no to any of this your time is an overhead expense. It's an irreplaceable commodity and should be valued. If you're not doing it for charitable purposes cheap to free training/education probably says something about your services.

If you're an instructor looking to teach but start up capital is limited a garage is a great place to start, many members on here have turned their garages/dens into great training facilities. Spend your money on equipment and marketing. When you've saved up enough and outgrown the garage you can look to sublet space. (If you'd like details on how to sublease contact me through email)

hskwarrior

03-07-2012, 10:54 PM

In my opinion if you're meeting at a park, home, garage 3 times per week for about an hour/hour and a half charge about $50 per month. Don't do donations because if people can get something for free they will and they won't have a tendency to be loyal; not everyone just most.

NOW this is something my sifu would say.

MasterKiller

03-08-2012, 07:13 AM

Gas is an overhead expense, vehicle maintenance and upkeep is an overhead, if you supply the training equipment such as hitting/kicking pads, training weapons, grappling mats. Do you still pay for training with an instructor?
Gas and vehicle maintenance? Are you kidding me? If you drive an SUV, do you get to charge more than if you ride a scooter?

And LOL at making other people subsidize your tuition with your own instructor. If you open up classes to the public, it's not the public's responsibility to maintain your lifestyle choices.

RickMatz

03-08-2012, 08:32 AM

I think a teacher's time and knowledge have value.

I wouldn't expect someone else to give me the benefit of their own hard work in acquiring that knowledge for nothing.

What is fair? It's what the market will bear: what the student feels it is worth it for him to pay and what the teacher is willing to accept for his time.

Shaolin

03-08-2012, 08:36 AM

Gas and vehicle maintenance? Are you kidding me? If you drive an SUV, do you get to charge more than if you ride a scooter?

And LOL at making other people subsidize your tuition with your own instructor. If you open up classes to the public, it's not the public's responsibility to maintain your lifestyle choices.

My vehicle is a company vehicle, it's only used for the purposes of my business. Therefore it makes it an overhead expense. At my level lessons with my instructors cost triple what it costs a beginning hobbyist/novice. My students can expect that my knowledge will continue to grow and stay on the "cutting edge" as far as martial arts and fitness. They can rely on me to provide a clean, safe environment with any equipment required to help make them successful in achieving their goals.

Maybe you don't share the same viewpoints and that's fine. I am a career martial artist and a business owner. I practice my business with honor, morals and integrity. I set my business up to provide myself and family with a comfortable life and to provide them with opportunities to be happy and successful. I make wise choices to ensure my business doors stay open for the next 30 years.

RickMatz

03-08-2012, 09:02 AM

A karate dojo I'm acquainted with has an interesting way to handle tuition.

Beginners pay a higher rate than the more advanced students and must pay 3 full months in advance. Even if someone drops out after 1 class, they've paid up.

As you advance in rank, the rate gets reduced.

The idea is that the beginners who frequently drop out subsidizes the ones who stick around.

MasterKiller

03-08-2012, 09:12 AM

Attention class! I just bought a new F-150, so your tuition is going up $10!

hskwarrior

03-08-2012, 09:18 AM

Attention class! I just bought a new F-150, so your tuition is going up $10!

Ya know, my student brought me an AWESOME paskrammi sammich last night. And i didn't know he was going to do that. he did that on his own free will, knowing my love fer da paskrammi.

There is one ......only one thing that's missing with you bro. its clear too. Boy that paskrammi was off the hook brah..:D

rett

03-08-2012, 09:24 AM

Nobody thinks it's strange if music teachers teach out of their homes. The price they charge is based on their skill and ability to teach. If they produce concert-level musicians, or even soloists, as my aunt and uncle did then they can charge as much as they want and buy a nice house in a nice neighborhood, nice car and the works.

They can turn away students they think aren't talented enough (politely) and pretty much do anything else the way they see fit.

No difference with martial arts, in my opinion. There are lots of different ways to do it. There's just no point in saying "my way is the only right way, all other ways are wrong".

hskwarrior

03-08-2012, 09:34 AM

The real problem here I BELIEVE is people are charging based on what they feel they're worth. Look at it this way, a restaurant could charge $10 for a really good Bacon Cheeseburger at one place. And another place you may find that same burger for 15 dollars. Same burger, same goodness, different prices. each one priced based on what people think its worth.

if you don't want to pay $15 dollars for a burger, the one thing you're gonna do is find a cheaper place. Still, there are some who have no problem with paying that $15.

it's all about choice.

Iron_Eagle_76

03-08-2012, 09:35 AM

My students pay me with Coors Light and Thai Hookers, so far it has been a pretty good deal!!:D

hskwarrior

03-08-2012, 09:41 AM

My students pay me with Coors Light and Thai Hookers, so far it has been a pretty good deal!!

hahahaha. ****, i gotta speak to my students about this. :D

David Jamieson

03-08-2012, 09:50 AM

My students pay me with Coors Light and Thai Hookers, so far it has been a pretty good deal!!:D

so...parrot pee and trannys are your price points?

:p

bawang

03-08-2012, 10:34 AM

i think when you taught enough to someone, you should part ways, unless you wanna spar.

if you dont spar and just do forms theres no reason for someone to stay and keep paying you.

TenTigers

03-08-2012, 10:41 AM

TenTigers

03-08-2012, 10:47 AM

Yes on the etiquette. Not that I expect or require it.

One kid asked to join the class. He brought a gift of oranges and noodles - symbolizing wishes of wealth and long life.

His parents saw traditional kung fu being taught semi privately at the park. They wanted him to learn, and they taught him how to introduce himself and pay his respects.

I can get my own oranges and noodles, but that etiquette let me know about his character and what kind of family he came from, and helped to let me know if I should take him as a student.
more gold!!!