Lost(?) forms of Abbott Gee Sins' disciples?

[LaterthanNever]

In looking back, I ought to have put all this info in one post..

Oh well..:confused:

Anyway..

Here are some forms that(according to the article) the disciples of Gee Sin supposedly practiced. Does anyone know if the sets have died out altogether? And if not, where are they/who practices or teaches them?

Hung Hsi Kuan/Hung Hei Gung: suposedly had a son named Hung Wen Ting(forerunner and founder of Hung Fut). The article states that Hung(not distinguishing if it was father or son) taught the following forms: Double Dragon Fight for Pearl, Nocturnal Tiger comes out of the forest, Five Shape fist(is this the same as Ng Ying Kuen or the 5 animal fist? Not sure), 10 shape fist(same as 5a/5e?)..and others..

Huang K'un: supposedly one of the earliest students of Gee Sin. He was known to teach the forms: Ahrat Fist, 14 stomp, and 5 element taming the tiger fist.

Lu Ak Choy: No explanation necessary. His forms are known far and wide

Hsieh Ya Fu. Taught the forms- Buddah Fist and Double taming the tiger fist.

Lan T'ou Ho--his nickname was "rotten head ho"(!) and he taught the forms: 10 shape comet fist(I believe Master Ho Lap Tin teaches a form w/ a similar name?), Hung Ga broken line hand, and Tiger tail kick(is this a form? Or just the name of a movement?)

T'an Yi Chun- Taught the forms : 3 expanded fist and steel wrapped golden pole.


My interest in posting this was to start a friendly discussion since someone previously posted a list of forms that Wong Fei Hung supposedly practiced in his youth which were supposedly lost in the midst of time. I think someone said the translation was by a figure by the name of "Leung Daat".

[hskwarrior]

Choy Gau Lee, Mok Da Si, Lau Sam-Ngan and Li Yao San

[PM]

Leung Daat is not a reliable source, he is a fiction writer, everybody laughs at him in Canton.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If a form is lost that must mean something, especially of the systems survived without it.

[LaterthanNever]

The article where I got the names of the forms of Gee Sins' disciples is NOT from Leung Daat, but another Hung Ga master.

As for them surviving without being carried forward..being significant of something..well they could have also been very effective forms. Does the fact that noone continues to practice them mean they should not be inquired about?:rolleyes:

It was said that the late Ip Man's teacher in Wing Chun took some forms with him to the grave that he never taught Grandmaster Ip. Does this mean that someone should not inquire if anyone on earth learned them?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The article where I got the names of the forms of Gee Sins' disciples is NOT from Leung Daat, but another Hung Ga master.

As for them surviving without being carried forward..being significant of something..well they could have also been very effective forms. Does the fact that noone continues to practice them mean they should not be inquired about?:rolleyes:

It was said that the late Ip Man's teacher in Wing Chun took some forms with him to the grave that he never taught Grandmaster Ip. Does this mean that someone should not inquire if anyone on earth learned them?

Nothing wrong with inquiring, nothing at all.
Many times the history of a system can be "cleared" up because of what was "left to die" sort of speaking.
The problem is that too many times I have seen the reason for the search being to find some "too deadly" form that was never taught because it was too deadly, or some BS like that.

[LaterthanNever]

"The problem is that too many times I have seen the reason for the search being to find some "too deadly" form that was never taught because it was too deadly, or some BS like that. "

:o LOL. I was having a discussion w/ someone once and he was saying to not be a "forms collector" which is a valid point. A short time later..a sifu from the same style said to me "You can beat 90% of the guys in the street if you knew only Fu-Hok really well and nothing else!".

True. Very true. But the downside is that if one didn't learn anything else..then you only know ONE form!

And what happens when one encounters an attack from someone who doesn't conform to the "90% of the guys on the street?"

[Mr. C]

Could this be one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnJIFYPzMlU


I believe this is one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja2WVX2_Zn4

and maybe this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNTfFjhv6Ys&feature=related

[sanjuro_ronin]

"The problem is that too many times I have seen the reason for the search being to find some "too deadly" form that was never taught because it was too deadly, or some BS like that. "

:o LOL. I was having a discussion w/ someone once and he was saying to not be a "forms collector" which is a valid point. A short time later..a sifu from the same style said to me "You can beat 90% of the guys in the street if you knew only Fu-Hok really well and nothing else!".

True. Very true. But the downside is that if one didn't learn anything else..then you only know ONE form!

And what happens when one encounters an attack from someone who doesn't conform to the "90% of the guys on the street?"

You may be falling into the "forms teach righting" fallacy.
If you face a guy that doesn't conform to the "90% of the guys on the street" thing, what makes you think some ancient form will have what you need?
Fighting teaches fighting and forms may allow you to "catalog" what you learn in fighting but forms can't teach you to fight.
There is no downside to knowing "only" one form, there is however a downside to know only one way to fight.
Some fighters, indeed some systems HAVE NO forms at all and yet their practioners fight quite well.

I think that when we see an "ancient" for we get a history lesson ( though we can never know for sure how old or how unadultered any form is) in what a teacher viewed as important to pass down to his students.

[hskwarrior]

You may be falling into the "forms teach righting" fallacy.

Is that righting vs wronging? LMAO......:D

[LaterthanNever]

"You may be falling into the "forms teach righting" fallacy."

Nope. But if you are implying that forms are a waste just because it's not akin to a fight in the street, then what is the point behind learning forms at all?


"If you face a guy that doesn't conform to the "90% of the guys on the street" thing, what makes you think some ancient form will have what you need?"

I think you are assuming some inaccuracies here. As for "some ancient" form..have you learned forms(regardless of if it was one form or 10 forms) in your martial arts career? If so, then it obviously couldn't have held zero value to you..or you would not have agreed to continue learning them(even if you don't practice them now)


"Fighting teaches fighting and forms may allow you to "catalog" what you learn in fighting but forms can't teach you to fight."

I never said that learning a form teaches one to fight. Catalog, categorize, imbed into your subconcious, drill it into your mind..call it what you like..it's got to start SOMEWHERE!


"There is no downside to knowing "only" one form, there is however a downside to know only one way to fight."

The fact is..if you could find all possible applications(or maybe not all..but certainly ones relevant to the style one is learning) in only one form(lets say the first form of a style)..then there would not be such a classification of "beginning, intermediate and advanced forms".

Wing Chun only has 3 hand sets, yet students are taught to "build up" to Biu Jee, since it's accepted that there are applications in the 3rd set that are not present in the other 2. And you can see the division of "beginning, intermediate and advanced" sets in probably every kung fu style around.;)

[hskwarrior]

on a personal level, i couldn't really care less about peoples feelings about forms. I will teach them. I will practice them. They WILL live on :D

[Chris m]

According to Mark Houghton, longtime friend of my teacher, and our unofficial si-suk, Hung Hei Goon's first form-that Gee Sim taught to him-was Mang Fu Chut Dong/Strong Tiger out of Cave, followed by Wun Ying Fuk Fu Kuen/Mixed Tiger Claw-not the exact translation, but that's what Mark called it when he taught these forms to our kwoon in 2002.

Mark learned these forms from his original Hung Gar si-fu Ho Kam Wai in Malaysia, Ho si-fu's lineage stems from Hung Hei Goon's 1st generation of to-dai, pre Gung Gee etc-Mark also taught us the Malaysian Hung lineage's version of Luk Dim Boon Gwun-later to be passed onto Yim Wing Chun by Hung si-jo, or taught to Wong Wa Bo by Gee Sim-depending on which legend you subscribe to. The Gwun forms are similar, but the Hung version is slightly longer.

[TenTigers]

but the Hung version is slightly longer.
yep. Cause we're Hung.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nope. But if you are implying that forms are a waste just because it's not akin to a fight in the street, then what is the point behind learning forms at all?



I think you are assuming some inaccuracies here. As for "some ancient" form..have you learned forms(regardless of if it was one form or 10 forms) in your martial arts career? If so, then it obviously couldn't have held zero value to you..or you would not have agreed to continue learning them(even if you don't practice them now)




I never said that learning a form teaches one to fight. Catalog, categorize, imbed into your subconcious, drill it into your mind..call it what you like..it's got to start SOMEWHERE!




The fact is..if you could find all possible applications(or maybe not all..but certainly ones relevant to the style one is learning) in only one form(lets say the first form of a style)..then there would not be such a classification of "beginning, intermediate and advanced forms".

Wing Chun only has 3 hand sets, yet students are taught to "build up" to Biu Jee, since it's accepted that there are applications in the 3rd set that are not present in the other 2. And you can see the division of "beginning, intermediate and advanced" sets in probably every kung fu style around.;)

Some systems only have 1 form and do quite alright with it ( a branch of Southern mantis comes to mind).
And what makes ANY form "beginner or intermideate or advance" is HOW it is done.
Many systems had only one or 2 forms and these were later "broken up" into other forms to facilitate the teaching process of for "other reasons".

Don't fall into the "more is better" mentality, that is were forms collectors come from.
As for the benefit of forms, that is for the individual to decide.
I hold my forms in great esteem for a few reasons but my reasons are mine and not anyone elses.
There are a few things that we must however accept as facts:
Forms are NOT needed in MA ( many MA do NOT have forms).
Forms are NOT needed to develop fighting skills ( many effective MA do not have any forms at all).
None of that diminishes the value of forms UNLESS on holds the vale of forms to be that.