Disappointed with Wing Chun

[nunchuckguy]

After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact "Wing Chun" fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?

[Drake]

I'm thinking you're about to find out... :cool:

[PalmStriker]

Hey ncg! Welcome to the KFMforum.:D Why not take what you will from your exposure to Wingchun and move on. If you end up using/practicing those techniques down the road regardless of further MA pursuits, you will have your answer. The individual is unique.

[White_Ape]

I'm thinking you're about to find out... :cool:
:eek:
*grabs bag of popcorn* ;)

[lance]

After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact "Wing Chun" fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?

To me , it all depends on the WC people themselves , how often they spend time training , some of these people who practice WC themselves , really may not have spent time training hard , instead they would rather just go out and enter WC full contact fights with reputable consequences , they end up losing the fight , mainly they did ' nt realize that they were ' nt really good enough yet to enter reall wing chun full contact fights .

To me it would be good if the WC practitioner themselves , really spar with students in their own club or school , to test their skills . Then that way they know where they stand in a real WC full contact fight . The WC practitioner should spar from the advance to the highest level in the class . Then that way the WC practitioner themselves can see if they are really improving or not in WC full contact fight .

[WC1277]

After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact "Wing Chun" fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?

Some on here will tell you the sparring thing, others will tell you their lineage. But the common denominator of 99.9% of Wing Chun practitioners is that they utilize their "technique" in their fighting or sparring. It's like learning how to shoot a gun but expecting to be a sniper simply by pulling the trigger. WC in actual fighting is meant to be natural to you and to your body type. It's as simple as this, you train, you get your structure and your target down and then you fight freely. Is it a recognizeable structure? Yes. Does it look even remotely close to any of the forms, chi sau, etc.? No. You attack your opponent along their center. That's it. No Magic. No fancy moves. Nothing. Sounds pretty un-appealing, doesn't it? But's that's all it is. Centerline attacking and body unity with the three main structures aligned. Hands, Body, Legs. Ever walk into an object straight on like a pole sticking out? That's good WC structure from the receiving end. The reason you haven't seen any good WC proof of concept is because WC is one of few arts where the "technique" is literally just the nutrition for your body. It's the equivalent of learning how to walk. Eventually, you can jump, skip, run, stand on one leg. They all work off the same structure but you can't do any of those things by simply walking.....

[k gledhill]

After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact "Wing Chun" fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?

I blame chi sao.

[Subitai]

After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact "Wing Chun" fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?

I think you could say that about ANY style or discipline. Such as it is, VERY FEW people are natural born fighters and majority really are not.

... You answer your own question, Perhaps it's because ony a handful Truely desire to train it for the purpose of fighting.

Weekend warriors and casual students shouldn't pretend to be fighters and most sensible practicioners know deep down they don't train hard enough. Though they might think so.


Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?


Why does WC or any style have to LOOK GOOD to you? Why is that important, because of Martial Arts Movies make it look that way for entertainment?

Can't you just set a guy up...punch him in the face and say "Job well Done"??? I don't know about you, but IMO, that would be perfect Wing Chun. :)

[jesper]

Q: how would you defeat a man twice your size
A: pull a gun and shoot him

Thats good wc.
nothing fancy about it

[Chadderz]

Q: how would you defeat a man twice your size using WC?
A: Chain punches.

[WingChunABQ]

Q: how would you defeat a man twice your size
A: pull a gun and shoot him

Thats good wc.
nothing fancy about it

It's only good WC if you aim at the center line, and the gun was held by someone from my lineage.

Just kidding.

[anerlich]

But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun.

I don't really think that's the case. Have you done a scientific study or something? Other than of Youtube vids and forum posts?

[GlennR]

After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact "Wing Chun" fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?

Well it depends what youre looking for in a martial art.
If youre after a sound self defense system that will get you out of most trouble, then WC is a good place to start.

If youre after a combat sport effective style there is better options.

[imperialtaichi]

In a fair fight, the determinating factors are:

1. heart
2. Physique
3. Techniques

Techniques comes last. Good WC training should focus on all three, but many only focus on techniques.

[k gledhill]

Interviewer: "How does the training differ from that in other styles?"

WSL: "Other styles would place much emphasis on the training of forms and combination techniques. Ving Tsun ideas will not allow this method of training. Ving Tsun theory will not allow any fixed responses or combinations of techniques. A Ving Tsun fighter will use the theory to find a technique for the given situation. His daily practise will give him the reflex to automatically select the right technique. It should not matter what technique follows the previous one as long as they fit the theory and flow through and not put the fighter in vulnerable or awkward positions. It is therefore important for the student to practice the reflex action so he may apply the theory of Ving Tsun to various situations created by any opponent. Grandmaster Yip Man used to be of the belief, and this is shared by many of his students, that it is your opponent who will teach you how to hit him. I often see students training who are trying to think too much how to hit their opponents. This is wrong because the student has preconceived ideas as to how he should move and how the opponent might move. When fighting, your opponent should also be free to move how he likes, he will not think as you. Hence your movements will be determined by his actions. If your intentions are to hit your opponent above all else, then you may over commit yourself or allow your opponent to attack you easily. It is far better to allow your opponent to guide you during the fight and show you how to hit him."

Interviewer: "How did you train mentally and physically for your matches against other styles?"

WSL: "For such a fight, you must train hard to just develop the self confidence to enter such a match. You must, by way of your self confidence, khow that you can win. When Ving Tsun practitioners go to fight and are defeated then the mentality is not to think that the other person is better than himself. Instead he needs to ask himself what were his mistakes to invite the attack. This is the kind of positive thinking which any fighter must possess."

Interviewer: "You were a strong fighter long before you began Ving Tsun. Did you find the concepts immediately useful or only certain techniques?"

WSL: "I am very small, so large people used to attempt to take advantage of me. I had many opportunities to fight and use Ving Tsun. I found the concept of always making my actions attacking the most useful. Ving Tsun never, never speaks of just blocking an attack but rather to counter with another attack. Offence is the best form of defence. For example if for nine out of ten seconds I am concentrating on hitting you, then for nine seconds you must be defending. I therefore have a better chance of striking you. I never think or speak of just blocking an attack but rather how to counter attack an opponent. The skills gained from chi sao should enable my attacking force to somehow continue towards the opponent."

[imperialtaichi]

"I found the concept of always making my actions attacking the most useful. Ving Tsun never, never speaks of just blocking an attack but rather to counter with another attack. Offence is the best form of defence. For example if for nine out of ten seconds I am concentrating on hitting you, then for nine seconds you must be defending. I therefore have a better chance of striking you. I never think or speak of just blocking an attack but rather how to counter attack an opponent. The skills gained from chi sao should enable my attacking force to somehow continue towards the opponent."

Very nice K, especially the last part.

Train to deal with the opponent, and you will always be a step behind, on the receiving end; make the opponent deal with you, and you will always be a step ahead. Make him play your game.

[Sihing73]

WSL: "I am very small, so large people used to attempt to take advantage of me. I had many opportunities to fight and use Ving Tsun. I found the concept of always making my actions attacking the most useful. Ving Tsun never, never speaks of just blocking an attack but rather to counter with another attack. Offence is the best form of defence. For example if for nine out of ten seconds I am concentrating on hitting you, then for nine seconds you must be defending. I therefore have a better chance of striking you. I never think or speak of just blocking an attack but rather how to counter attack an opponent. The skills gained from chi sao should enable my attacking force to somehow continue towards the opponent."

Now Kevin I thought you did not believe in Chi Sau and blame much of the arts decline on Chi Sau :D

Actually, I think Chi Sau is a piece of the pie and an essential piece but not the only piece.

[k gledhill]

Now Kevin I thought you did not believe in Chi Sau and blame much of the arts decline on Chi Sau :D

Actually, I think Chi Sau is a piece of the pie and an essential piece but not the only piece.

Ahhhh, there you go, chi-sao is a highly contentious process.....some combat each other within its boundaries, while others drill to attack, counter attack, attack, counter attack ad infinitum ...allowing themselves to be guinea pigs in the mutual exchange, ego-less.
Iow deliberately making mistakes for each other, allowing hits for lat sao jik chung so each knows they have a serious punch or an air tag. Creating an atmosphere of development for a common goal so we have reflex responses because our PARTNERS didn't stick endlessly to our arms in a battle of futility.
IOW Not a chi-sao competition, which is detrimental to each student, who thereby create a war zone of contact with arms .
I can list many clips of this, but guys get all huffy and slap challenges ensue...
The results of such bad chi-sao, are that when you fight a guy who doesn't stick to arms, he has an advantage over you because HE is attacking you with 2 arms for 9 of 10 seconds while you search for a bridge to stick to for 10, redundantly .

Now I am not talking about a chain punch, this is laughably the most common reason guys get their butts handed to them. We develop a more sophisticated ability to strike and defend in the same attacking beat, lin sil di da, da sao jik siu sao, so we CAN attack, every move AND create simple defensive lines of cutting punches, using angling and mobility to change seamlessly with a resisting opponent.

Who stands the better odds of winning the fight ? the guy searching to build a bridge or the one attacking the gaps made by the bridge builders errors of arm chasing in space before you. Simple yet genius, let the guy move and hit him , seeing this clearly is half the battle to understanding VT fighting.

Chi-sao done correctly, serves as a stepping stone to free-fighting without hesitation in 'what to do next' moments. It rids us of common errors of retracting before acting.

We try to develop the ability to deliver a seamless attack / counter attack , its a skill. And not over attack an arm, etc... then do it at the speed of reflex reactions.

[k gledhill]

Very nice K, especially the last part.

Train to deal with the opponent, and you will always be a step behind, on the receiving end; make the opponent deal with you, and you will always be a step ahead. Make him play your game.

Yes, VT is self -correction , according to YM>WSL>PB, meaning we rid ourselves of the multitude of errors or ways we would enter to attack another.
The center-line defines what sides we cut into, interceptions ensue, attacking attacks, cutting into the opponents timing, all this is a skill process we adopt.

Tactically we use chi-sao as role playing too, what side a leading line of force comes from...how we counter attack angle to it or attack it directly, thoughtlessly.

Lap sao drills have a lot of this, but many just get an endless grab n chop idea. Its a more sophisticated method of mutual conditioning at mindless reaction to pak, jut, bong punch, we create the atmosphere of relaxation, reflex speed enhancement. We 'use' each other rather than fight each other to just get a hit in and say , "I won, i'm bad" :D

[nunchuckguy]

I don't really think that's the case. Have you done a scientific study or something? Other than of Youtube vids and forum posts?

Just look at the Ip Man Cup, man. Are you satisfied with that level of skills? Or are they the carefully selected few that do not at all reflect the real power of the rest of the WC guys?

[GlennR]

Just look at the Ip Man Cup, man. Are you satisfied with that level of skills? Or are they the carefully selected few that do not at all reflect the real power of the rest of the WC guys?

Is that a horse race? ;)

[anerlich]

Just look at the Ip Man Cup, man. Are you satisfied with that level of skills? Or are they the carefully selected few that do not at all reflect the real power of the rest of the WC guys?

I haven't looked at it ... man. I'm looking at my WC training buds who fought successfully in MMA and kickboxing, and students of other Wing Chun guys like Alan Orr and Phil Redmond who have succeeded as well.

Anyway, if you're so concerned, what plans do you have to rectify it, other than whingeing on a web forum?

[k gledhill]

Just look at the Ip Man Cup, man. Are you satisfied with that level of skills? Or are they the carefully selected few that do not at all reflect the real power of the rest of the WC guys?

The ip man cup was mainly sanda fighters, a friend of mine was there.

[Lee Chiang Po]

After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact "Wing Chun" fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?

All these questions you would still ask no matter what style or system of fighting you study. The reason is because you live in an invironment where you do not have to use it regularly, and are not likely to ever have to use it at all. In this case you would question any thing you do. It is not just Wing Chun that would come under question here. You can't be concerned at what it looks like. The only thing that matters is what kind of results it gives you. Sparring and play fighting is not ever going to give you the answers you seek either. Just study and practice and enjoy what you do in the hopes that if it ever comes down to it you can handle yourself. No matter how bad ass you might be, you can always walk into one and get knocked out. Fighting is not really an exact science yet. That's why when you fight, you go all out and pull no punches. You should probably stop messing around utube too. You can not really learn anything there by watching random videos.

[Sihing73]

IOW Not a chi-sao competition, which is detrimental to each student, who thereby create a war zone of contact with arms .

The results of such bad chi-sao, are that when you fight a guy who doesn't stick to arms, he has an advantage over you because HE is attacking you with 2 arms for 9 of 10 seconds while you search for a bridge to stick to for 10, redundantly .

Who stands the better odds of winning the fight ? the guy searching to build a bridge or the one attacking the gaps made by the bridge builders errors of arm chasing in space before you. Simple yet genius, let the guy move and hit him , seeing this clearly is half the battle to understanding VT fighting.

Chi-sao done correctly, serves as a stepping stone to free-fighting without hesitation in 'what to do next' moments. It rids us of common errors of retracting before acting.

We try to develop the ability to deliver a seamless attack / counter attack , its a skill. And not over attack an arm, etc... then do it at the speed of reflex reactions.

Kevin,

With this I am in total agreement. Chia Sau is not a competition and is not fighting but is or can be a valuable resource for training the contact reflexes. The attributes can carry over into a fight and that is what makes it such a valuable tool. IMHO, when done correctly training will allow one to make solid contact with an oppontnet/partner. There is little benefit with being able to "touch" an opponent/partner if the "touch" is little more than a slap and has no real structure.

[SavvySavage]

The short answer is one of these:
1. The old timers trained much differently than we train today and only passed on the shell of wing chun.

2. The old timers were mainly only good fighters amongst themselves(inbreeding) and never REALLY tested it outside of their comfort zone.

3. If wc training is supposed to be what it is today than it might be that they were just drills that were given to established fighters. These fighters, who were strong as hell already, added wc to their wheel to make them fight a certain way that others weren't.

People have to constantly bring up the old timers because there is a lack of modern day wc heroes. They just aren't there. It seems in today's environment you have to supplement your wc with mma. This might sound like blasphemy to many but the wc fighters of old were already strong skilled fighters before learning wc drills.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When people that train WC train it for fighting and fight with it they get better at, *gasp* fighting with it.
WSL was able to use his WC to fight because he fought and developed the skills to fight with his WC.
He fought those that were NOT WC and was not a "slave" to the very limited skill set that is developed when WC only "fights" WC.
The problem with WC AND every OTHER MA that only "fight themselves" is that they only get good at "fighting themselves".

[k gledhill]

When people that train WC train it for fighting and fight with it they get better at, *gasp* fighting with it.
WSL was able to use his WC to fight because he fought and developed the skills to fight with his WC.
He fought those that were NOT WC and was not a "slave" to the very limited skill set that is developed when WC only "fights" WC.
The problem with WC AND every OTHER MA that only "fight themselves" is that they only get good at "fighting themselves".

Agree, we should not be fighting ourselves in chi-sao drills, but developing the skills required to attack opponents mindlessly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agree, we should not be fighting ourselves in chi-sao drills, but developing the skills required to attack opponents mindlessly.

Indeed.
What are the chances that a WC practitioner will have to use his skills VS another WC guy outside his school?
So why train to counter a "WC attack" when what you will probably see is NOT a "WC attack"?

[Phil Redmond]

Indeed.
What are the chances that a WC practitioner will have to use his skills VS another WC guy outside his school?
So why train to counter a "WC attack" when what you will probably see is NOT a "WC attack"?
This is why I tell people to throw horizontal fists like street fighters, Karateka, Boxers, and other fighters. Why train only against vertical fists when you're going to encounter more horizontal fists in the real world?

[k gledhill]

Indeed.
What are the chances that a WC practitioner will have to use his skills VS another WC guy outside his school?
So why train to counter a "WC attack" when what you will probably see is NOT a "WC attack"?

We develop skills WITH each other, not to fight each other. Role playing and skill enhancement rather than "what will you do if my tan does this ? Oh, I will control with my fook sao and be unbeatable and defeat you " :D

Exactly what are the chances you will fight another VT guy outside ;) Nobody punches with elbows in and down like us.

[Mutant]

The results of such bad chi-sao, are that when you fight a guy who doesn't stick to arms, he has an advantage over you because HE is attacking you with 2 arms for 9 of 10 seconds while you search for a bridge to stick to for 10, redundantly .

Now I am not talking about a chain punch, this is laughably the most common reason guys get their butts handed to them. We develop a more sophisticated ability to strike and defend in the same attacking beat, lin sil di da, da sao jik siu sao, so we CAN attack, every move AND create simple defensive lines of cutting punches, using angling and mobility to change seamlessly with a resisting opponent.

Who stands the better odds of winning the fight ? the guy searching to build a bridge or the one attacking the gaps made by the bridge builders errors of arm chasing in space before you. Simple yet genius, let the guy move and hit him , seeing this clearly is half the battle to understanding VT fighting.

Chi-sao done correctly, serves as a stepping stone to free-fighting without hesitation in 'what to do next' moments. It rids us of common errors of retracting before acting.

We try to develop the ability to deliver a seamless attack / counter attack , its a skill. And not over attack an arm, etc... then do it at the speed of reflex reactions.

This is VERY well stated and I completely agree that herein lies some of the major malfunctions of wing chun practitioners.

[LoneTiger108]

So why train to counter a "WC attack" when what you will probably see is NOT a "WC attack"?

This was one of the first questions I asked when I started to learn basic postures. My teachers answer was simple, he never attacked me with a 'Wing Chun' attack, as his Sifu never did either! They were both well trained in general Chinese Martial Arts and could 'mimic' almost any system quite effectively considering how simple and limited the Wing Chun system can be perceived.

We use Wing Chun peers to train our interactive habits and reflexes, not to fight against. Ever. I consider 'sparring' to be another interactive exercise, so yes we would spar but actually 'fight' each other?? That just has never felt quite right for me...

[Sean66]

Great post there, Kev! Agree 100%

[Mutant]

I think there are a lot of factors that can conspire to relegate Wing Chun to the fringe in terms of modern fighting arts. I don't think there is anything inherently flawed with Wing Chun itself; the principles, techniques and energies are sound.

When 'applied' to solve the actual relevant fighting challenges one may face today (reality or sport fighting), its a great operating system. But one has to really FIGHT with it, not use it for pseudo-fighting masterb@tion. Which is tough for people learn how to apply it against real violence, chaos, and people not playing by a stereotypical WC rule set. Most WC people, sifu's and students, don't know what the heck a real fight is, whether outside the kwoon in personal defense or in competition. So yeh, I can see how a lot of people who get into this art with great expectations turn sour and disenchanted. A lot of time they're listening to the wrong people present the wrong approach and answers to the challenges at hand. They don't really allow their students or themselves to think outside the box and fight creatively with this stuff. Things can only be applied in a certain way to answer the limited questions that they're asking, not the challenges that the world is presenting. And they become so enamored with certain drills that they think that is sparring or even fighting, while its just an old set of drills that do have value in teaching specific lessons, but are not complete answers. And thus people become completely confused about what a fight is and how to apply their Wing Chun. They get the idea of ranges and applications of various techniques at ranges completely screwed up. And then of course its not going to work against a skilled and conditioned (thats a whole other story about so many WC people not being in actual fighting condition) combatant from another style, whether it be western boxing, Muay Thai, Sanda, MMA, etc.

I LOVE a lot of the history and technical discussions on energies and such, one of the best things about this forum. But it always derails when people get overly pedantic and use the wrong core mission statements when applying their art. They somehow want the 'style' to fight for them, and the history of their ancestors and dogma of their particular branch to win all the battle, interweb or actual... A lot of the beliefs about what will work if just applied a certain way can be astounding. Wing Chun is its own worst enemy. Almost none of the branches get along or provide consistent answers, and way too much of the energy is focused in the rearview mirror.

In order to get by with that approach, the various Wing chun circles get more and more insular, existing successfully in a bubble that has little to do with reality. Only training against other students doing the exact same thing, looking to a pedantic sifu who doesnt know what real power or violence looks or feels like. And on top of that, these cultures usually spend an inordinate amount of time cutting down other styles verbally, like there's a style wide low self esteem complex.

Its gotten into a viscous cycle. In this state at this point, it only attracts mostly non-athletes. Its run by enablers and protectors who have no intention of going hard against REAL contemporary combat sports practitioners or other skilled and trained stylists. When there are videos, they're usually against someones 'friend who trained in 'x', who is usually terribly inexperienced -or- the WC guys getting killed by someone who is actually decent. And the more the style looks bad and doesnt produce many fighters, the more naturally gifted potential fighters will naturally seek out other training formats. And we're left with something thats more akin to an Anachronistic Society Convention with practitioners LARPing and wondering why the help they can't apply their arts during moments of sobriety.

[Mutant]

Please pardon my epic post, er, rant... A lot of frustration with the style that I usually don't talk about.

This could largely be said about the state of Kung Fu in general these days in addition to Wing Chun, although we've become the poster child for this. Sad state of affairs, really. No offense meant to you guys with this. I really do enjoy a lot of the discussion threads here. And I believe Wing Chun to likely still salvageable with the right approaches, because there is so much to the art that has value. Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on the matter, for what ever the hell its worth. Cheers.

[GlennR]

I think there are a lot of factors that can conspire to relegate Wing Chun to the fringe in terms of modern fighting arts. I don't think there is anything inherently flawed with Wing Chun itself; the principles, techniques and energies are sound.

When 'applied' to solve the actual relevant fighting challenges one may face today (reality or sport fighting), its a great operating system. But one has to really FIGHT with it, not use it for pseudo-fighting masterb@tion. Which is tough for people learn how to apply it against real violence, chaos, and people not playing by a stereotypical WC rule set. Most WC people, sifu's and students, don't know what the heck a real fight is, whether outside the kwoon in personal defense or in competition. So yeh, I can see how a lot of people who get into this art with great expectations turn sour and disenchanted. A lot of time they're listening to the wrong people present the wrong approach and answers to the challenges at hand. They don't really allow their students or themselves to think outside the box and fight creatively with this stuff. Things can only be applied in a certain way to answer the limited questions that they're asking, not the challenges that the world is presenting. And they become so enamored with certain drills that they think that is sparring or even fighting, while its just an old set of drills that do have value in teaching specific lessons, but are not complete answers. And thus people become completely confused about what a fight is and how to apply their Wing Chun. They get the idea of ranges and applications of various techniques at ranges completely screwed up. And then of course its not going to work against a skilled and conditioned (thats a whole other story about so many WC people not being in actual fighting condition) combatant from another style, whether it be western boxing, Muay Thai, Sanda, MMA, etc.

I LOVE a lot of the history and technical discussions on energies and such, one of the best things about this forum. But it always derails when people get overly pedantic and use the wrong core mission statements when applying their art. They somehow want the 'style' to fight for them, and the history of their ancestors and dogma of their particular branch to win all the battle, interweb or actual... A lot of the beliefs about what will work if just applied a certain way can be astounding. Wing Chun is its own worst enemy. Almost none of the branches get along or provide consistent answers, and way too much of the energy is focused in the rearview mirror.

In order to get by with that approach, the various Wing chun circles get more and more insular, existing successfully in a bubble that has little to do with reality. Only training against other students doing the exact same thing, looking to a pedantic sifu who doesnt know what real power or violence looks or feels like. And on top of that, these cultures usually spend an inordinate amount of time cutting down other styles verbally, like there's a style wide low self esteem complex.

Its gotten into a viscous cycle. In this state at this point, it only attracts mostly non-athletes. Its run by enablers and protectors who have no intention of going hard against REAL contemporary combat sports practitioners or other skilled and trained stylists. When there are videos, they're usually against someones 'friend who trained in 'x', who is usually terribly inexperienced -or- the WC guys getting killed by someone who is actually decent. And the more the style looks bad and doesnt produce many fighters, the more naturally gifted potential fighters will naturally seek out other training formats. And we're left with something thats more akin to an Anachronistic Society Convention with practitioners LARPing and wondering why the help they can't apply their arts during moments of sobriety.

Excellent post

[Vajramusti]

Lots of overgeneralizations about wing chun going on in this thread and often others.
Wing chun is not a community and not consistent across lineages on stances, footwork.concepts, principles. training, contact work- you name it.

If someone is dis-satisfied with their wing chun- I am not- makes sense for them to do something else.

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Excellent posts by Mutant and Joy.


Wing chun is not a community

And certainly not a family.

[Grumblegeezer]

Please pardon my epic post, er, rant... A lot of frustration with the style that I usually don't talk about.

This could largely be said about the state of Kung Fu in general these days in addition to Wing Chun, although we've become the poster child for this. Sad state of affairs, really. No offense meant to you guys with this. I really do enjoy a lot of the discussion threads here. And I believe Wing Chun to likely still salvageable with the right approaches, because there is so much to the art that has value. Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on the matter, for what ever the hell its worth. Cheers.

Mutant, no need to apologize. You bring up some very good points. I visited your website and see that your gym has a core mission of training fighters but also welcomes others who are not really into fighting at that level, but are very serious about intense and realistic training. It's a fact that most WC groups don't have this kind of focus. It's something worth addressing.

[Buddha_Fist]

We develop skills WITH each other, not to fight each other. Role playing and skill enhancement rather than "what will you do if my tan does this ? Oh, I will control with my fook sao and be unbeatable and defeat you " :D

Exactly what are the chances you will fight another VT guy outside ;) Nobody punches with elbows in and down like us.

:)

Yup, that's why Chi-Sao competitions are a complete waste of time. It's taking a skill building drill, putting it in a different context, and draw wrong conclusions from it. Want to compare fighting skill? Just frickin' spar...

[Buddha_Fist]

I...And we're left with something thats more akin to an Anachronistic Society Convention with practitioners LARPing and wondering why the help they can't apply their arts during moments of sobriety.

What I call Kung-Fu Trekkies... Enamored with silk suits, ancient authentic martial songs, secret butterfly palm techniques, incense sticks, martial art conventions, Bruce Lee posters, etc.
And when it boils down to rock'n roll... it just looks like $hitty Kick-boxing...

[SavvySavage]

Lots of overgeneralizations about wing chun going on in this thread and often others.
Wing chun is not a community and not consistent across lineages on stances, footwork.concepts, principles. training, contact work- you name it.

If someone is dis-satisfied with their wing chun- I am not- makes sense for them to do something else.

joy chaudhuri

So you're partially arguing that if his wc system doesn't have it another one will? You don't believe that the answer could lie wound the scope of the wc lens?

[k gledhill]

:)

Yup, that's why Chi-Sao competitions are a complete waste of time. It's taking a skill building drill, putting it in a different context, and draw wrong conclusions from it. Want to compare fighting skill? Just frickin' spar...

No thought of elbow development , just target practice ...gotcha first moments, epic :D

[Lee Chiang Po]

If you want your Wing Chun to prove itself to you, then use it for fighting. Not sissy sparring or chi sau, but stick in a mouth piece and go at it. Make a few rules. You can't deliberately break a persons bones or kill him, and when someone hits the floor you go to a neutral corner. If it takes more than a few minutes to take him down, your stuff needs work.

[Vajramusti]

So you're partially arguing that if his wc system doesn't have it another one will? You don't believe that the answer could lie wound the scope of the wc lens?
---------------------------------------------------

I did not argue that at all. "the wc lens"??? WC has: No single lens.

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lots of overgeneralizations about wing chun going on in this thread and often others.
Wing chun is not a community and not consistent across lineages on stances, footwork.concepts, principles. training, contact work- you name it.

If someone is dis-satisfied with their wing chun- I am not- makes sense for them to do something else.

joy chaudhuri

Absolutely.
My time in WC was great and I took what worked for me and don't regret a moment of it.
That said it was NOT a good fit for me.

[LoneTiger108]

Lots of overgeneralizations about wing chun going on in this thread and often others.
Wing chun is not a community and not consistent across lineages on stances, footwork.concepts, principles. training, contact work- you name it.

This is what I couldn't understand when I first started posting here. And it wasn't until much later that I realized that my own lineage just has a different approach to learning the system. Period. And we have differences within our own family, but these are celebrated more than criticized these days as we all become more aware of exactly how and what our Sigung taught.

I have heard many students complain about why they were not shown this or that, but when it comes down to it many of them left the system anyway in preference of a more sport orientated art. Nothing wrong with that. I done the same thing many moons ago when I left the Karate Dojo to join a Boxing gym because I thought the training wasn't 'real' enough.

I have never once felt that with my Wing Chun though.

[nunchuckguy]

Thanks guys, excellent discussions. I learned a lot.

I will continue to explore WC. Different sifus and different interpretations.

I checked out Alan Orr and Phil Redmond because someone mentioned them. I have to say I am very impressed. It looks much closer to what I'm looking for.

I know Alan got a set of instructional DVD. Does Phil offers something like that?

[Yoshiyahu]

After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact "Wing Chun" fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.


the key to wing chun

1. Practice Daily
2. Build your skill (Power, Strenght, Speed, Flexibility, timing, cooridation, accuracy)
3. Chi sau develops sensitivity
4. San Shou develops hand eye cooridation
5. Sparring hard and soft develops skill in fighting with techniques


One thing in my system we always trained more so against Non-wing chun attacks. Be it high kicks, boxing punches, karate punches, or just straight up brawling or street fighting attacks. Once you get used to defending against any said attack. An then spar with people of other styles or no style at all ie a street fighter. Then you begin to gain experience with what works against certain types of people. Those who spar different people out side of your system have an advantage.


AS FOR YOUTUBE

Just like alot people have watered down wing chun...you tube also water downs good wing chun. You have a few videos of wing chun working against people. But alot of it has been removed or fail away over time. Its really hard to find a WC guy straight up winning against a skilled fighter. But its out there.

But as some have said not everyone uses WC for fighting. Only the young tend to be interested in fighting...older people do it because they love kung fu!

[Jubei1]

AS FOR YOUTUBE

Just like alot people have watered down wing chun...you tube also water downs good wing chun. You have a few videos of wing chun working against people. But alot of it has been removed or fail away over time. Its really hard to find a WC guy straight up winning against a skilled fighter. But its out there.


Very true wise yoshi, now show em the video of the people wrassling and using the VT headlock

[Grumblegeezer]

... spar with people of other styles or no style at all ie a street fighter. Then you begin to gain experience with what works against certain types of people. Those who spar different people out side of your system have an advantage.

But as some have said not everyone uses WC for fighting. Only the young tend to be interested in fighting...older people do it because they love kung fu!

I actually agree with both both points above. (I guess it had to happen sooner or later).

[Yoshiyahu]

What is the WC wrestling and headlock you speak of?


AS FOR YOUTUBE

Just like alot people have watered down wing chun...you tube also water downs good wing chun. You have a few videos of wing chun working against people. But alot of it has been removed or fail away over time. Its really hard to find a WC guy straight up winning against a skilled fighter. But its out there.


Very true wise yoshi, now show em the video of the people wrassling and using the VT headlock

Thanks wow...we agree on something...wow...the earth is ending!


I actually agree with both both points above. (I guess it had to happen sooner or later).

[Jubei1]

Come on Yoshi, how quickly you forget one of your best post yet.

The youtube video you posted in your thread entitled "WC techniques in sparring."

Oh by the way those WC headlocks, do you recommend a gable grip? :)

[Yoshiyahu]

Come on Yoshi, how quickly you forget one of your best post yet.

The youtube video you posted in your thread entitled "WC techniques in sparring."

Oh by the way those WC headlocks, do you recommend a gable grip? :)

please repost that video....i need to see it...are u feferring to neck grab from mook yan jong.

[Jubei1]

please repost that video....i need to see it...are u feferring to neck grab from mook yan jong.

huh? you need to see it?

uhhmm, you're the one who posted it in the thread that you started. :confused:

[Yoshiyahu]

huh? you need to see it?

uhhmm, you're the one who posted it in the thread that you started. :confused:

okay thanks never mind!

ne way its all good..

[JPinAZ]

Forget it, yoshi is obviously to stupid to even remember his own posts, how can he be taken seriously. The Guy is a troll

[Yoshiyahu]

Forget it, yoshi is obviously to stupid to even remember his own posts, how can he be taken seriously. The Guy is a troll

man im finna go back to my troll village and read from the troll manifesto to come up with some topics to write about!!!!


http://blog.daysofwonder.com/wp-content/dow-uploads/2009/01/trolls-en.jpg

[hulkout]

A lot of people tend to forget one of the most important elements of fighting. And that is aggressiveness. No matter what style you train, if you're not willing to turn it up and get in there, you'll lose. Wing Chun works if you do. But guys come in, do some drills, chi sao, and forms a few times a week, don't practice conditioning, stance and footwork are garbage, have punches and kicks like creampuffs, don't practice full contact fighting. Then when they try to compete, they get their asses handed to them and they wonder why. Being able to ***** slap someone during chi sao with your fook sao hand or sneaking in a weak palm strike with your tan sao hand does not mean you can fight. The bottom line is that people don't spend anywhere near enough time on things like footwork drills, striking power, and full contact sparring. If they did, they would do much better.

[White_Ape]

I have no say in WC matters, as I've never tried it.....yet...but I do agree that Full Contact (even if you must wear gear :rolleyes:) gives you invaluable experience and knowledge.
I haven't had too much full contact training yet, but have been in more than enough scuffles (pre-KF training) to know that it is completely different than punching the air...
Plus, I think its a great way to find out what you need to work on. My techniques may look great in form/practice, but will I be able to execute what I need, call upon my learning when I need it most??? And how better to really bring to my attention what I need to work on than a good bop to the face :D
My father taught me to swim by tossing me in the deep end of the pool, he had worked with me a little bit on the basics in the shallow end, where it was only to my chin, but he wanted to see if I retained what I learned when I needed it. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. and I think full contact training is the same. You learn some stuff, then you test it to see what works, what doesn't, and what else you need. After a while, it becomes instinct, and that is what its all about.


BTW....I am really enjoying this thread :p

[Yoshiyahu]

Thanks for this Post...i dont think too many people will disagree with you...

I suggest seeking out other martial artist. Maybe form a club or group where you all can get together and spar. When I was teenager We had informal club. There were about three of us. Two Wing Chun and One Muay Thai guy who challenge other people. There was forth guy who was wrestler and streetfighter but he wasnt a frequent enough to claim as a member. But he did come around for sparring every now and then.

But we would spar with karate guys, Kung Fu guys, Tae Kwon Do guys and Muay Thai guys at school an in the neighbor hood. Some were more skilled and had more experience and some where not at our level yet. But it was still alot of fun. Trying an testing out what you know.

The good thing about HS is everyone loved to box.

But with us everything was welcome. Boxing, TKD, and what ever...there were guys who would try all sorts of stuff!


Those where the fun days....

Recently I sparred with some karate, TKD and a Muay Thai guy in little china town square when people came to visit the Tai Chi class. But other than that its not nearly the volume of people we had back in the day!



I have no say in WC matters, as I've never tried it.....yet...but I do agree that Full Contact (even if you must wear gear :rolleyes:) gives you invaluable experience and knowledge.
I haven't had too much full contact training yet, but have been in more than enough scuffles (pre-KF training) to know that it is completely different than punching the air...
Plus, I think its a great way to find out what you need to work on. My techniques may look great in form/practice, but will I be able to execute what I need, call upon my learning when I need it most??? And how better to really bring to my attention what I need to work on than a good bop to the face :D
My father taught me to swim by tossing me in the deep end of the pool, he had worked with me a little bit on the basics in the shallow end, where it was only to my chin, but he wanted to see if I retained what I learned when I needed it. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. and I think full contact training is the same. You learn some stuff, then you test it to see what works, what doesn't, and what else you need. After a while, it becomes instinct, and that is what its all about.


BTW....I am really enjoying this thread :p

[White_Ape]

Hey.....thats not a bad idea!!!!
Maybe I can throw out a CL ad and see if there is some other MA people that want to throw some bones for fun...:D
I may just do this...
Thanks Yosh

[Yoshiyahu]

Hey.....thats not a bad idea!!!!
Maybe I can throw out a CL ad and see if there is some other MA people that want to throw some bones for fun...:D
I may just do this...
Thanks Yosh

Personally I have more experience with Non-WC guys...I will realistically say its harder to spar WC guys than other styles. Patrtially because most of my Kung Fu life I didnt have many WC people to trade with. So Im just use to non-WC fighting methods. Its a totally different game and the dimensions and angles are different.


But yea post some ads here and there on different forums too. Or maybe find a place were local martial artist might be found...