Buk Sing and Lee Koon Hung

[crazyfistmonk]

What would you consider to be the major differences/similarities in Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut forms as compared specifically to Lee Koon Hung line Choy Lay Fut forms? Do you think the close interaction that Poon Sing, Lee Koon Hung, and Tat Mau Wong had with several major Buk Sing players (Dave and Vince Lacey, etc.) had any influence on how these schools now play their forms?
My teacher (from Hong Kong) claimed Buk Sing, but from my own research and comparing the forms I learned with those of other Choy Lay Fut schools, I see a strong resemblance to those forms as practiced within the Lee Koon Hung line. This prompted me to start asking some serious questions regarding cross-pollination of styles especially where these particular schools are concerned.
Keep in mind that I personally consider forms to be of secondary importance to fighting practice, physical conditioning, and free sparring where developing real fighting skill is concerned. However, these same forms are our martial inheritance and should therefore be maintained.

I look forward to your responses, comments, and observations.

[hskwarrior]

What would you consider to be the major differences/similarities in Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut forms as compared specifically to Lee Koon Hung line Choy Lay Fut forms?

First one is quite obvious......the buk sing lineage is hung sing while Lee Koon Hung's lineage is more chan family. so material would be one difference. totally different.

[CLFNole]

The only thing I can say is we never use closed fist punches but rather always use a version of chop choy when we punch (yeung chop, yum chop, cheung ahn choy (ping chop). I always thought of this as an "influence" from buk sing since Tam Sam was very famous for his usage of the chop choy.

Other than that I don't think we have too much connection other than sifu being friends with a variety of other CLF sifus (buk sing, hung sing and chan family). Like Frank mentioned the majority of our sets come from the Chan Family Hung Sing line from Chan Koon Pak. We kind of have our own flavor and style but this isn't uncommon for any style or school.

[TenTigers]

from watching Lee Koon Hung perform, he does have the same long arm extended movements Buk Sing is known for. They play their forms very "big." So his flavor can be seen as Buk Sing'ish, while the content may be different.

[CLFNole]

Yes we do play our forms somewhat long but if you look at enough CLF in general you will see it played in all different kinds of way...long, short, medium. Heck if you look at Tat Mau Wong's CLF they play it shorter than we do and it has its own flavor.

[TenTigers]

Yes we do play our forms somewhat long but if you look at enough CLF in general you will see it played in all different kinds of way...long, short, medium. Heck if you look at Tat Mau Wong's CLF they play it shorter than we do and it has its own flavor.
I think that's one of the things I like about CLF-it can be played many ways-and they all are cool ;-) I like the fast, long explosive movement, but I also like the short, quick movement, as well as when it is played softer and lighter.

[hskwarrior]

I think that's one of the things I like about CLF-it can be played many ways-and they all are cool ;-) I like the fast, long explosive movement, but I also like the short, quick movement, as well as when it is played softer and lighter.

Yeah, CLF can be performed in a number of ways. In the past, individual flavor confused other CLF people but the more they watched the more they came to realize its CLF. It can be PERFORMED anyway you feel like it. My sifu developed his flavor as well.

[CLFNole]

I think it is important for each person to develop their own flavor. Within our lineage alone there is a variety and during my 18 years of doing CLF I noticed my style has changed and evolved. I think it is important to start long to really get extension and flexibility but as we age it will tend to become a bit shorter. I also feel too extended is not as practical.

[TenTigers]

I think it is important for each person to develop their own flavor. Within our lineage alone there is a variety and during my 18 years of doing CLF I noticed my style has changed and evolved. I think it is important to start long to really get extension and flexibility but as we age it will tend to become a bit shorter. I also feel too extended is not as practical.
But...extension is important from the standpoint of longevity, as you are constantly using full range of motion and maintaining flexibility and strength of the joints. That's why some of the old CLF guys still look good. I think Sifu Lacey once mentioned that Buk Sing does not have a separate chi-gung set as the forms have it woven into them by virtue of the large, extended movements which not only maintain flexibility of the joints, but open up the meridians as well.
:cool:

[CLFNole]

I agree completely...I am not saying the extension shouldn't be there I was more thinking (but not typing) that some movements become a bit shorter. I still extend pretty big but in certain parts I realized I was overextended then tweaked it over time.

For health purposes it is a positive factor as we too do not have an internal set like some of the other CLF branches.

[Jimbo]

I also really like the variations within CLF.

Our main lineage, from Sigung John Lem, plays very differently from other CLF that I've seen. More shorter movements with some long. Also, some of the sets are played going straight forward and back (and in some instances, just straight ahead, or ahead then off-angle.

We also have Hung Sing and Chan family sets as well.

*sorry, a bit OT.

[hskwarrior]

I think it is important for each person to develop their own flavor. Within our lineage alone there is a variety and during my 18 years of doing CLF I noticed my style has changed and evolved. I think it is important to start long to really get extension and flexibility but as we age it will tend to become a bit shorter. I also feel too extended is not as practical.

By looking at our pictures of Lau Bun i feel the original style was much shorter than the long style we see today. For example, the longer your reach the less protected you are. That makes short to medium range the preferred distance for combat in our lineage. so during the "FORMS CRAZE" people copied the longer style because it makes our hands flowery.

combative CLF is ugly. my sifu always said compared to the LKH lineage our forms were ugly because of the emphasis. then there was the craze of everyone wanting to lengthen their moves.

Good thing is now CLF has returned to the combative stage again and hopefully one day we will have reps in MMA or the UFC.

[Shaolindynasty]

There is a difference between full extension and over extension. The way I learned it from my sifu was to extend fully but not to hyperextend. That way you still are training to devlop power but not to extend to the point of leaveing yourself vulnerable. At shaolin temple they have a saying "straight but not straight", I think it fits what my sifu taught me very well.

I don't think the vairations that we are talking about between schools and individuals in this thread are based on some intentional divergance other than individuals prefer to execute the movements in different ways. I know that even between my kungfu brothers and I there is some variation in the way the movements are done, even though we are taught the same.

[TenTigers]

I don't think the vairations that we are talking about between schools and individuals in this thread are based on some intentional divergance other than individuals prefer to execute the movements in different ways. I know that even between my kungfu brothers and I there is some variation in the way the movements are done, even though we are taught the same.
sorry to sound argumentative on this thread, must be that time of the month....
but...

Buk Sing's extension is purely intentional, and was one of Tarm Sam's specialties.
In fact, Gen.Dave Lacey can hit you with his charp-choy from six feet away!
(been there, been hit with that:-)

let me add that I have also seen other families play with that same reach. whether or not it was due to influence, or cross training with BSCLF guys, I have no idea. But it is a hallmark of BSCLF from my understanding.

[Shaolindynasty]

What I meant, which may not be clear from the way I wrote it, is that their is no unified decisions to move the system in one way or the other.

Tam Sam was originally of the futsan hung sing school, he decided he liked to do things a certain way based on what worked for him. That is why there is a difference.

People who were his kung fu brothers at the futsan hung sing school all did things different. This happens in every school

The only difference in this case is people chose to name it a different lineage

[hskwarrior]

But it is a hallmark of BSCLF from my understanding.

yeah back in the 90's that used to come up, "why is buk sing so stretched out...not only hands but their horses too?""



People who were his kung fu brothers at the futsan hung sing school all did things different. This happens in every school

The only difference in this case is people chose to name it a different lineage

This is true. its all personal flavor and how it works for you. i used to imitate how my sifu moved but later found my own movement.

[CLFNole]

Again, I think this goes back to the individual. I have a disk of a buk sing memorial banquet from Hong Kong and I remember watching it and noticing the difference from person to person/school to school. Yes it was all buk sing but some played their arm's longer and other stances wider.

I think everyone has their own preference and nothing is set in stone for anything.

[hskwarrior]

I think like anything everyone has their own preference and nothing is set in stone for anything.

Thats the GOOD thing about CLF.....its all interchangeable.

[CLFNole]

Thats the GOOD thing about CLF.....its all interchangeable.

I agree 100%.

[TenTigers]

boy..you guys are being way to agreeable for this forum.

You need to start hanging out with the WC guys more...

[crazyfistmonk]

Thanks for all of the input on this thread. Good discussion without deterioration into squabbling, bickering, and the like. Appreciated.
The two main things I noticed between Buk Sing and the Lee Koon Hung line forms that prompted my research was the extensive emphasis on the use of the Charp Choy and the extended reach, waist twisting, and "Northern" flavor of the forms themselves. I think the extensive use of the Charp Choy as compared with other branches really got me to thinking about the possible cross-pollination that is likely to have occurred between the two lines.
I agree, everyone has their own flavor to playing the forms. This is as it should be. Stylistic differences are another matter altogether, however. The stylistic differences, to some degree, are what make Buk Sing, Buk Sing, Hung Sing, Hung Sing, and so-on. It's the individual interpretation within these stylistic differences that ultimately make my Choy Lay Fut, my Choy Lay Fut, and your Choy Lay Fut, your Choy Lay Fut. That's where the flavor comes into the mix.

Good discussion and lots of insight here.

[CLFNole]

Yep that is where I thought some influence it noticable through the chop choy.

We have a form called Fu Pow Kuen, that I always thought had a bit of a buk sing flavor to it but I don't think it is a buk sing set persay.

There is a Fu Pow connection from Jow Gar to Buk Sing through Kong On (Kong Hing's father) but I have seen some versions and it is much different from ours.

[crazyfistmonk]

It's been said that Lee Koon Hung's Sifu Poon Dik (I know, a point of contention for some) may have had some interaction with Tarm Sarm. I cannot comment on this, although I find the possibility interesting.
If this is true, it could account for some of the cross-pollination and apparent similarities between the two lines.

[CLFNole]

It is funny I once asked Poon Sing if we had some connection to buk sing and he was pretty adament about saying we didn't and mentioned our connection with Chan Koon Pak (my cantonese wasn't that good at the time).

It really much contention with who sifu's sifu was. Poon Dik was technically his ssifu but he passed away when sifu was quite young. Sifu then learned from of his sihings Leung Sai, Chow Bing and Poon Sing and then later in life he followed his Sisuk, So Kam Fook. He also interacted with another sisuk/sibaak, Leung Siu Keung, who was Leung Kwai's nephew.

Attn: Yao Sing...you need to clear some space in your PM box, I couldn't respond becuase it is full.

[crazyfistmonk]

CLFNole...That is interesting, for sure.
Personally (and again this is my personal opinion only) I think the bulk of the influence across lines came a little later with Lee Koon Hung and Tat Mau Wong and their association with Dave and Vince Lacey. There likewise could have been some exchange between Poon Sing and Kong Hing considering that they were close friends and associates. Not that I doubt that there was influence prior to that time, as I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Poon Dik/Tarm Sarm story is true (planting the proverbial seed of cross-pollination, if you will. Wow, I just read that...lol).
I'm almost convinced that Dave Lacey, for instance, learned the Iron Arrow from either Lee Koon Hung or Tat Mau Wong and modified it to suit his own personal taste and experience. Now, before I start upsetting people with that statement, let me clarify that this is my personal opinion only and I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone by making such a statement. I have nothing but the utmost respect for both Dave and Vince Lacey, as well as GM Lee Koon Hung and Tat Mau Wong.

CLFNole...I'm beginning to see that you're to Lee Koon Hung Choy Lay Fut what HSKWarrior is to Hung Sing! (I mean that in only the best possible way...lol.)

[CLFNole]

I know Sifu (LKH) and Sifu Dave Lacey interacted (I have some old pictures) and it was pretty common to exchange material. In my early training years I brought in a magazine with Sifu Lacey in it speaking about buk sing and Sifu mentioned he showed him Tuet Jin. I have seen a variety of clips of Sifu Lacey perform and a few times I saw part of the form mixed in with his other techniques so I figured that was the part he liked and incorporated into his style.

I don't think Tat Wong plays into it at all.

[crazyfistmonk]

Duly noted.
Thanks for all of the Lee Koon Hung line information, BTW.

[CLFNole]

No problem...by the way what is your buk sing lineage? If you don't mind me asking.

[crazyfistmonk]

Not at all:)
Mine comes from William Lee who was originally from Hong Kong. Honestly, lineage wasn't often discussed, so I'm not sure from whom he may have learned. His English was very poor and I didn't press the issue. What mattered to me was that he was far and above one of the fastest, strongest, and most powerful fighters I have ever met. He had the skill to back up his words and I wanted that skill. I didn't even know until I had been with him for awhile that what he taught was Choy Lay Fut. He claimed Buk Sing, always talking about Tarm Sarm's exploits; at least from the little that I was able to understand. He did mention Kong On and his son Kong Hing whom he referred to as "the fighting Kongs" but again, I honestly only ever understood a fraction of what he said to me. His point was often made by bruising my chest with Charp Choys, and I learned early on it was better not to ask a lot of unnecessary questions.
I studied with Lee Sifu for almost 3 years until he moved back to Hong Kong due to an issue with his work visa. He told me he was leaving, and the next week when I came into work, he was gone. He did leave me a set of butterfly knives and a heavily-worn wallbag which are now my prized possessions.
That about sums it up:)

[Shaolindynasty]

exchanges happen but every choy lay fut school does the chop choi with a panther fist. I don't think emphasis on the chop choi/panther fist means buk sing influence. we have a form called hon jerng lin wan kuen that is almot entirely different types of chop chois delivered continuously and have no buk sing influence. all choy lay fut schools have these techniques.

[hskwarrior]

exchanges happen but every choy lay fut school does the chop choi with a panther fist. I don't think emphasis on the chop choi/panther fist means buk sing influence.

In my honest opinion, i believe it was indeed Tam Sam who inspired the use and research into the different usages of the chop Choy with panther fist. Original/OLD fut san hung sing kuen (CLF) did our chop choys with solid fists. a few fut san hung sing lineages still do till this day.


all choy lay fut schools have these techniques.

true. but its about the usage and personal experience the old masters based their usages on.

[crazyfistmonk]

exchanges happen but every choy lay fut school does the chop choi with a panther fist.

Not every Choy Lay Fut school does the charp choy with a panther fist. In fact, many Choy Lay Fut schools execute the Charp Choy with a closed fist as opposed to a panther fist.
Not trying to be argumentative, but Tarm Sarm developed the panther fist Charp Choy into a speciality and sort-of trademark of the Buk Sing school.

[TenTigers]

The last two posts-I was going to say that, but I figured this Hung-Gar guy who did a little CLF should shut up and let the CLF guys go for it. (who does this guy think he is, anyway?):D

[Shaolindynasty]

Being good at a technique and inventing it are 2 different things.

The the chop choi and it's panther fist variation were known before buk sing. maybe he liked that technique and chose to emphasize it more than othe clf practitioners but he did not invent it.

The chop choi and panther fist are not even unique to choy lay fut

[hskwarrior]

Being good at a technique and inventing it are 2 different things.

The the chop choi and it's panther fist variation were known before buk sing. maybe he liked that technique and chose to emphasize it more than othe clf practitioners but he did not invent it.

The chop choi and panther fist are not even unique to choy lay fut

Even the CHAN family has admitted that it was TAM SAM who popularized the panther fisted Chop Choy. The slogan "EXTRA INCH EXTRA POWER" didn't come from chan heung, or jeung hung sing. it was TAM SAM. No one said he invented it, as it most likely was around prior to Chan Heung.

[Yao Sing]

CLFNole - I made some room, PM away. Thanks.

[Shaolindynasty]

it most likely was around prior to Chan Heung

ok, then we agree. but that reason is why I don't think anyone should assume buk sing influence because someone does panther/leopard fist techniques.

I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone I respect all choy lay fut practitioners as brothers

[hskwarrior]

ok, then we agree. but that reason is why I don't think anyone should assume buk sing influence because someone does panther/leopard fist techniques.


I completely understand your POV......but thats just it. YOU don't think ......

However, the elders of CLF from the 3 major branches......the one's who were alot closer to the times than any of us here have said tam sam is responsible for taking the usage of the panther fist in all of CLF to the next level. others followed in his footsteps.

your opinion is getting heard, it just doesn't happen to be the truth to the situation.

[CLFNole]

This isn't a right or wrong thing. I think SD was referring to my comment about my thoughts of a buk sing influence in our CLF. This was my opinion based on my time in CLF and watching various branches and what not. I noticed many lines utilized closed fist punches whereas our sets do not have any closed fist punches.

Having watched buk sing and their extensive use of the panther fist I saw this as a possible influence. Again just my opinion and not speaking for any other branch. I have seen a good deal of Chan Wing Fat/Chen Yong Fa's group from Australia and our forms stem from theirs. That being said they have a lot of closed fist punches so in my mind ours having exclusively panther fist punches made me believe the influence came elsewhere.

[Shaolindynasty]

completely understand your POV......but thats just it. YOU don't think ......

However, the elders of CLF from the 3 major branches......the one's who were alot closer to the times than any of us here have said tam sam is responsible for taking the usage of the panther fist in all of CLF to the next level. others followed in his footsteps.

your opinion is getting heard, it just doesn't happen to be the truth to the situation.


we use panther fist chop chois and no buk sing influence here. so whatever.

btw, the disrespect isn't required *******

[hskwarrior]

we use panther fist chop chois and no buk sing influence here. so whatever.

btw, the disrespect isn't required *******

Disrespect where? I bet somewhere in your lineage someone was inspired by Tam Sams contributions.

IF and thats IF i was disrespectful...i apologize. However i don't believe i disrespected you or anyone. I was simlpy stating whats been known and reported on by the elders. are you sure you're not being overly sensitive? :confused:

even tho....... HISTORICALLY TAM SAM is the one who made the Lin Wan Chop Choy. It is what it is.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Disrespect where? I bet somewhere in your lineage someone was inspired by Tam Sams contributions.

IF and thats IF i was disrespectful...i apologize. However i don't believe i disrespected you or anyone. I stating whats been known and reported on by the elders. are you sure you're not being overly sensitive? :confused:

I think he is referring to when you wrote:

completely understand your POV......but thats just it. YOU don't think

Telling some one that they aren't thinking is usually viewed as disrespectful.
:D

[hskwarrior]

Telling some one that they aren't thinking is usually viewed as disrespectful.

If someone is offended by the truth as it is known, that's not my issue.

in my comments "YOU DON'T THINK........." I was saying YOU DON'T THINK it is but others do. I just didn't finish my sentence. that is why there were so many "......" I assumed he'd get my drift. I wasn't saying or inferring that he wasn't thinking in the least. just saying its him that doesn't think "BLAH BLAH BLAH"....... i was referring to WHAT he was thinking and NOT to the lack of his thinking.

I could have said it that way but it didn't come out that way.


then we agree. but that reason is why I don't think anyone should assume buk sing influence because someone does panther/leopard fist techniques.

a simple question of "what did you mean by this?" would have solved that issue instantly.

Now lets see if he does the right thing?

And historically, its been stated that the panther fist wasn't highly used back then prior to Tam Sam. yes everyone has the panther fist found in their forms. BUT, NO ONE popularized it to the extent of TAM SAM.

[CLFNole]

Frank I recall you and I having a mis-communication over something similar :D When I read it I kind of thought the same thing he did.

[hskwarrior]

Frank I recall you and I having a mis-communication over something similar When I read it I kind of thought the same thing he did.

why you gotta bring back some old sh1t LMAO

with all that said......i still did not disrespect anyone at all.

I might not be thinking clearly cause i'm still affected by waking up to some news that a friend mine died last night. Again....my bad for miscommunication. but i ask first before jumping to a conclusion. or at least i try to LOL

[CLFNole]

To lighten the mood and give us a laugh.

[hskwarrior]

To lighten the mood and give us a laugh.

eh, i'm still emotional right now. losing my boy was a shocker. i need to laugh tho. its been a rough morning. :(

[CLFNole]

Sorry for your loss.

[Shaolindynasty]

I bet somewhere in your lineage someone was inspired by Tam Sams contributions

Our lin wan chop choi was developed independantly by To Hon Cheong based on his own personal experiences. It's different from the buk sing lin wan but it is still continous chop chois with some panther fists. Thats why I say if someone sees panther fists or continuous chop chois they shouldnt automatically assume buk sing influence because it might have been developed independent from that influence. All the tools are contained in the system, it is up to the individual to extract and develop the tools as they see fit.

Like I said I am not trying to take anything away from the buks sing lineage with my comments. I just believe that all choy lay fut is based on the 10 elements/seeds and that a few minor differences aside we all have access to the same tool bag so to speak.


in my comments "YOU DON'T THINK........." I was saying YOU DON'T THINK it is but others do. I just didn't finish my sentence. that is why there were so many "......" I assumed he'd get my drift. I wasn't saying or inferring that he wasn't thinking in the least. just saying its him that doesn't think "BLAH BLAH BLAH"....... i was referring to WHAT he was thinking and NOT to the lack of his thinking.

Then I misunderstood, no disrespect taken


I might not be thinking clearly cause i'm still affected by waking up to some news that a friend mine died last night.

sorry to hear about your friend

[CLFNole]

SD:

Some of the combos in that Lien Wan form you have are quite similar to the combos we have in a form called Fu Pow Kuen. Who really knows who influenced who but back in the day everyone seemed to exchange stuff freely amongst each other.

In the end its all CLF with whatever word or character one chooses to put in front of it.

[hskwarrior]

Like I said I am not trying to take anything away from the buks sing lineage with my comments. I just believe that all choy lay fut is based on the 10 elements/seeds and that a few minor differences aside we all have access to the same tool bag so to speak.

i totally agree with what you're saying. there's alot in hung sing that buk sing claims as well. regardless.....its popular today and thats all that matters.

[CLFNole]

I think each branch has likely "borrowed" from the other. ;)

[Shaolindynasty]

Some of the combos in that Lien Wan form you have are quite similar to the combos we have in a form called Fu Pow Kuen.

Doesn't suprise me at all. Some of the forms between our schools are almost identical. He made the form out of lin wan chop choi combined some other sequences taken from some of the other forms

[CLFNole]

Funny until seeing you do some of their stuff I never saw too many similarities. I had seen sifu Sam perform a few times along with Phil but nothing stood out as being the same just appeared to me as CLF. I saw a list of forms he had in his curriculum and some had the same names and other different ones.

[Shaolindynasty]

Yeah but the some of the ones with the same name are different and some of the ones with diferent names are the same:eek:

[Yao Sing]

Personally I think too many people read way too much into choreography. Anyone with a good understanding of their style should be able to create/modify sets as needed.

As much as peeps like say Form X is done this way with this fist or that stance the reality is it should conform to your way or, if teaching, be suited to the student.

All these variations that people try to hang on to just bloats the entire system at the risk of overshadowing the more important core material.

Just my opinion. :)

Edit: Signature moves to identify your branch are fine but even that can get out of hand as styles spread.

[crazyfistmonk]

HSK, condolences. Our prayers are with you today, brother.

SLD, I agree. The Charp Choy existed long before Tarm Sarm, or even Choy Lay Fut, for that matter; perhaps (and most likely) going back centuries into Shaolin history. I do believe, however, that the Charp Choy emphasis as seen in the Lee Koon Hung line is indicative of a strong Buk Sing influence due to the close association that has existed between these two lines throughout the years. Evidence would suggest that Buk Sing has even borrowed from the Lee Koon Hung line through these same associations, but I digress...

TenTigers: Yeah, just who do you think you are, anyway?:D

[hskwarrior]

I do believe, however, that the Charp Choy emphasis as seen in the Lee Koon Hung line is indicative of a strong Buk Sing influence due to the close association that has existed between these two lines throughout the years

Thanks CFM.

I don't want to sound repetitive here, but Lee Koon Hung had strong ties with Hung Sing as well. Many of the Hung Sing elders that knew him told me he was really a DIE HARD HUNG SING guy at heart. Neither here nor there but he got respect from all sides.

[crazyfistmonk]

Lee Koon Hung had strong ties with Hung Sing as well. Many of the Hung Sing elders that knew him told me he was really a DIE HARD HUNG SING guy at heart. Neither here nor there but he got respect from all sides.

Absolutely agreed.
In fact, considering that Buk Sing evolved from Hung Sing, and further considering Lee Koon Hung's association with Hung Sing, the Hung Sing influence is undeniably strong throughout both lines.

Man, this is good, good stuff right here, I don't care who you are:D

[TenTigers]

Our lin wan chop choi was developed independantly by To Hon Cheong based on his own personal experiences. It's different from the buk sing lin wan but it is still continous chop chois with some panther fists.

out of curiosity and for my own edification/edumacation, how are they different?

[CLFNole]

I liked the "at heart"part frank but it is appropriate.

[hskwarrior]

your sifu CLFNOLE gets all love from Hung Sing bro. thats all that matters

[CLFNole]

I was just playing with you. He seemed to have respect from a variety of camps as we have various flags and banners people sent over the years in the school. I was always impressed with that.

[extrajoseph]

The only thing I can say is we never use closed fist punches but rather always use a version of chop choy when we punch (yeung chop, yum chop, cheung ahn choy (ping chop). I always thought of this as an "influence" from buk sing since Tam Sam was very famous for his usage of the chop choy.


There are 36 types of Chui mentioned in Chan Yiu-Chi's training manual, how you throw a Chui determines how you would hold a Kuen (fist). Charp Chui, whether Yum Charp, Yeung Charp or Ping Charp etc., is to penetrate in a straight line, so you would hold it with an open fist with fingers bend and press the index finger with your thumb tightly to get more traction. A more advanced practitioner would add the screw actions to a straight line and modify the straight line into a slight arc. Charp Chui with a closed fist would be less penetrating, so it is less efficient for the same power input. A Cup Chui or Ding Chui is different, so you would hold your fist differently and so forth. Tarm Sarm made the Charp Chui famous, but he is not the first to use this technique, the other 35 Chui can also be just as deadly, if you know how to use it properly.

Just my two cents worth from an old guy, no disrespect to Buk Sing is intended.

[Marcelo-RJ]

In my one-day training (hope other days will come) of "short hand CLF" of Master Paul Chan, the most of the hands I saw reminded the Hung Gar training of my youth.
Let me add, however, that the Charp Choi that I drilled was executed with a panther first.

Let me also add that the Charp Choi combos I learned from Sifu Wong Zen Yem of NYC (Xing Hui school, Chan Family) were also panther fist strikes.

[CLFNole]

XJ:

I was just refering to basic punching motions in the sets we have using a panther fist variation rather than a closed fist. Obviously gwa, sow, cup, pow, pek, chin ji, bein, paw, etc... are done with a closed fist.

This was my own thinking nothing I was told. I know Tam Sam didn't invent the panther fist but it is heavily prevalent with any buk sing form or person, whereas you see closed fists and the like from other CLF branches. Since we don't have closed fist punches (in the sets) I thought this "might" be some type of influence from buk sing. But again this was my own thought, not that it really matters though.

Peace

[extrajoseph]

Hi CLFNole,

I know what you mean and when it comes to closed fist there are also subtle differences, for example in gwa and cup the thumb position changes and in chin-ji it is not a tight fist, whereas in pek it has to be and so forth.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

Here is one of DFW's guys doing the lau bun lineage Cheung Kuen. You can see the corkscrew or twisting punch (Yeung Chop) with the closed fist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeqGlEfHGyY

[CLFNole]

You most definately need to move the thumb on the cup choy compared to the gwa choy or ouch. :eek:

[Jimbo]

You most definately need to move the thumb on the cup choy compared to the gwa choy or ouch. :eek:

Very true. For a while early in my training, I started keeping my fist in the kup choy position even during gwa so as not to inadvertetly 'forget.' But I found that in that position, my gwa (and closed-fisted chop) did not carry the same impact, as well as the thumb being in an exposed position during these other fist strikes. So I trained it so I could automatically switch the thumb position back to a standard fist on the gwa, closed-fisted chop, etc., without thinking about it.

[hskwarrior]

Very true. For a while early in my training, I started keeping my fist in the kup choy position even during gwa so as not to inadvertetly 'forget.'

EXACTLY. i never place my thumb anywhere else. always on top.

[CLFNole]

I only place the thumb on the side against my index finger when I do chop choys (for added support and stability) and cup choys (to keep from damaging the thumb). When I do gwa choy, bien choy, pek choy, etc...I have the thumb at the bottom across the index and middle fingers. I just move the thumb as needed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

EXACTLY. i never place my thumb anywhere else. always on top.

Not to mention the thump on top gives you another striking point.

[hskwarrior]

Not to mention the thump on top gives you another striking point.


:mad: mannnnn, i purposely left that out. SHEESH :p

There is ONE downfall to using it the way you're mentioning. if you happen to hit bone.....joint will say OUCH MUDDA CHUKKA.......and last for months

[sanjuro_ronin]

:mad: mannnnn, i purposely left that out. SHEESH :p

You know me, always giving out the stuff for free.
:D