WC is totally effective, if you let it to be.

[imperialtaichi]

I sometimes get totally frustrated, when people claims WC is ineffective.

The thing is, learning WC is like learning to drive and getting your driver's liscence; of course, one needs to learn the road rules and adhere to to them. Otherwise you will not pass the driving test.

However, if one wants to be a race/stunt car driver, one needs to take the basic driving skills beyond the "learners" road rules and adapt it and apply it to the type of driving, and the type of roads you want.

Unfortunately, too many "experts" still doing WC like little old lady drivers; and when someone drives their WC like racing drivers, these little old ladies claim they are not driving safely/properly.

WC is not ineffective. It's the little old lady drivers that's ineffective.

Sorry for the ranting.

[Mutant]

Very well said, agreed 100% :)

[k gledhill]

I sometimes get totally frustrated, when people claims WC is ineffective.

The thing is, learning WC is like learning to drive and getting your driver's liscence; of course, one needs to learn the road rules and adhere to to them. Otherwise you will not pass the driving test.

However, if one wants to be a race/stunt car driver, one needs to take the basic driving skills beyond the "learners" road rules and adapt it and apply it to the type of driving, and the type of roads you want.

Unfortunately, too many "experts" still doing WC like little old lady drivers; and when someone drives their WC like racing drivers, these little old ladies claim they are not driving safely/properly.

WC is not ineffective. It's the little old lady drivers that's ineffective.

Sorry for the ranting.

Nice post , I do motocross, does that count ? :D

[Chadderz]

I sometimes get totally frustrated, when people claims WC is ineffective.

The thing is, learning WC is like learning to drive and getting your driver's liscence; of course, one needs to learn the road rules and adhere to to them. Otherwise you will not pass the driving test.

However, if one wants to be a race/stunt car driver, one needs to take the basic driving skills beyond the "learners" road rules and adapt it and apply it to the type of driving, and the type of roads you want.

Unfortunately, too many "experts" still doing WC like little old lady drivers; and when someone drives their WC like racing drivers, these little old ladies claim they are not driving safely/properly.

WC is not ineffective. It's the little old lady drivers that's ineffective.

Sorry for the ranting.

I think WC guys try to learn driving from GTA xD

[WingChunABQ]

Like my sifu always says: "It's not the art that fails the person. It's the person that fails the art."

[nasmedicine]

I sometimes get totally frustrated, when people claims WC is ineffective.

The thing is, learning WC is like learning to drive and getting your driver's liscence; of course, one needs to learn the road rules and adhere to to them. Otherwise you will not pass the driving test.

However, if one wants to be a race/stunt car driver, one needs to take the basic driving skills beyond the "learners" road rules and adapt it and apply it to the type of driving, and the type of roads you want.

Unfortunately, too many "experts" still doing WC like little old lady drivers; and when someone drives their WC like racing drivers, these little old ladies claim they are not driving safely/properly.

WC is not ineffective. It's the little old lady drivers that's ineffective.

Sorry for the ranting.

LOL, love it! Great post! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I sometimes get totally frustrated, when people claims WC is ineffective.

The thing is, learning WC is like learning to drive and getting your driver's liscence; of course, one needs to learn the road rules and adhere to to them. Otherwise you will not pass the driving test.

However, if one wants to be a race/stunt car driver, one needs to take the basic driving skills beyond the "learners" road rules and adapt it and apply it to the type of driving, and the type of roads you want.

Unfortunately, too many "experts" still doing WC like little old lady drivers; and when someone drives their WC like racing drivers, these little old ladies claim they are not driving safely/properly.

WC is not ineffective. It's the little old lady drivers that's ineffective.

Sorry for the ranting.

To add to your analogy:
The problem with too many WC people is that all they do is drive on "closed roads" and under "controlled circumstances".
Which is great for stunt driving but does nothing for the real world were one MUST take into account what OTHER drives do as well.
Because of this, when SOME WC "drivers" go out in the real world, they get upset that other "drivers" don't drive they way they WANT them too and they they realize that their "driving skills" are lacking and blame the CAR.

[Lee Chiang Po]

People take the most scientific, most effective fighting system ever devised, then they start altering it to become more like MMA or boxing or Muay Thai and then whine because they can't make it work. What makes your stuff work is your willingness to apply it. You need to be mean. You need to be fearless. And you need to have the killer instinct. You know, a gun is absolutely no good at all in a fight unless you shoot someone with it. It is just a club. Possibly even a scare item. But unless you are willing to use it, it is worthless. That applies to your Wing Chun too. You can not do it half a$$ed or it will fail you. You have to apply it like you mean it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

People take the most scientific, most effective fighting system ever devised

I stopped reading here because I spewed coffee out of my nose !!!
:D

[k gledhill]

"The theory of Wing Chun works flawlessly, if, you can implement it without any errors. But the theory is only a theory and it does not mean anything if you can not make it work. During battle your system may be the best theory, but if your skill level below the level of skill of your opponent, you simply lose. No theory of the world will not save you from defeat."

Wong Shun Leung

As the man once said to me after Bear Hugging me , TRAIN HARD !

Go the extra mile, its not so crowded there... ;) anon

[Yoshiyahu]

Most people who do WC only do apart of it...meaning they only have shell of the WC....


Every fighting system needs more than air work and partner work...


Air Work
1.Forms
2.Punches in the air
3.Kicks
4.Weapon forms
5.Chi gung


Partner Work
1.San Shou Drills
2.Chi Sau drills
3.Free Sparring
4.Take Downs
5.Form Application


But you also need power and strenth building along with other stuff...


The Skill of person Fighting is not only in how accuracte and precise you can perform a technique. Nor is how superior your timing is to your opponent.

Having superior timing and accuracy and percision can definitely make your techniques work for you an win against opponent who is equal to you in strenght and power. But what about opponent who has more power than you.

for instance most WC people simply develop skill in techniques and principles but not so much in phyiscal conditioning outside of air work...

Now I will mention Practicing the weapons in the air can give you some conditioning and also doing the wooden man form and various drills can give you more power. But most WC schools Only practiced the Mook Yan Jong slowly with no power. One should practice the MYJ two ways.

1.With out power and force
2.With power and force

So you can see what the technique feels like in real fighting and practice with real intent and power as well as refine your techniques and develop correct alignment and posistioning by going slow. Same with the forms. They should be practiced fast and hard as well as slow and soft. But few people do this...

In addition to pole work and maybe hitting the wall bag and Wooden Man...You should do other stuff to develop your skill...


Such stretching to so you can become more agile and flexible.

Lifting weights, push ups, sit ups, pull ups, and other strength building exercises.

Hitting a heavy bag along with a wall bag.

Kicking a wooden post or wall.

Doing squats, leg lifts and other things to develop your legs.


Also work on stamina and endurance as well as speed.


If you have the greatest techniques in the world but your opponent is alot stronger than you and too fast for you defend against how will you be able to utilize your skill in percision and accuracy and perfect timing?


Someone who is stronger and more powerful usually can defeat a weaker opponent!

[wingchunIan]

If you have the greatest techniques in the world but your opponent is alot stronger than you and too fast for you defend against how will you be able to utilize your skill in percision and accuracy and perfect timing?


Someone who is stronger and more powerful usually can defeat a weaker opponent!

If you truly believe that, then stop training WC and start taking steroids and lifting heavy weights instead.:(
The one thing BJJ showed when UFC first started was that skill and technique can overcome a much larger and stronger opponent. Unfortunately in WC many people mistake skill for fancy hand techniques when in reality the true skill is creating and using angles, maintaining distance, using short sharp bursts of energy to control and disrupt, and delivering shock to the jic seen through fast relaxed strikes. All of which are hard to see and even harder to do.

[JPinAZ]

Most people who do WC only do apart of it...meaning they only have shell of the WC....

Is that a fact or just your opinion? You state it as if it's fact and that you know so much about all the 10's or 100's of thousands of WC practitioners all over the world, so where is your proof or evidence, or are you just talking out your yahu as usual?


If you have the greatest techniques in the world but your opponent is alot stronger than you and too fast for you defend against how will you be able to utilize your skill in percision and accuracy and perfect timing?

Someone who is stronger and more powerful usually can defeat a weaker opponent!

No one argues that stregth and speed help, but the above thinking is proof of someone only thinking of WC fighting as mearly techniques and attributes. IMO, this is very narrow view and missing the boat on what WCK is all about.
I agree with wingchunIan, you shold quit WC and just start taking steroids if you believe the above is what WCK is all about. But then, I'm really starting to believe you don't actually train WCK much (or with anyone good), or you wouldn't talk like you do ;)

[Wayfaring]

On the importance of conditioning I like the wrestling philosophy:

"Conditioning is the greatest hold". Karl Gotch - catch wrestler.

The idea of the weak overcoming the strong, the small overcoming the large, the technically trained overcoming the athlete is the holy grail of all martial arts.

While this can be accomplished, the disparity and mismatch that it's available to overcome is many times less than martial artists would like to believe. And when it does happen many times it's a conditioned smaller athlete overcoming a non-conditioned or lesser conditioned larger person.

Technique is important. Conditioning is important too. I like the viewpoint of viewing conditioning as your greatest technique. I think it's healthy from not only a realistic practical application perspective but also good from a longevity perspective. I want to train hard athletically well into my latter years. Will I be able to compete older against younger athletes? I can sure try. And I can sure surprise them too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One can't put a degree of importance over the various attributes, ALL are crucial and all need to be developed to their highest potential, there is not one that is more than any other.
The best fighter is the one that has developed his speed, strength, skill and conditioning to its highest degree.

[Yoshiyahu]

Im simply saying real skill derives from strength, power, speed, flexibility, timing, cooridation, stamina and accuracy and preceision.


With out the following how will you be able to apply any principles, techniques or centerline theory against an opponent who possess more power, strength, flexibility, accuracy, precision, stamina and cooridation. If they can read you and counter you better than you can them your lost mate....Its not about WC or about what style you do. its about fighting!


Is that a fact or just your opinion? You state it as if it's fact and that you know so much about all the 10's or 100's of thousands of WC practitioners all over the world, so where is your proof or evidence, or are you just talking out your yahu as usual?



No one argues that stregth and speed help, but the above thinking is proof of someone only thinking of WC fighting as mearly techniques and attributes. IMO, this is very narrow view and missing the boat on what WCK is all about.
I agree with wingchunIan, you shold quit WC and just start taking steroids if you believe the above is what WCK is all about. But then, I'm really starting to believe you don't actually train WCK much (or with anyone good), or you wouldn't talk like you do ;)

what if your opponent who doesn't do wing chun has more accuracy, precision and cooridation at controlling angles than you do. What if he posses more power and strength than you do has better timing than you so he can counter your short burst and reidrect your disrubtion and striking. Again Someone who is more skilled will win. it dont matter what style you do. If two people from the same style have the techniques and principles down evenly...who usually wins? The weaker opponent or the stronger opponent?


If you truly believe that, then stop training WC and start taking steroids and lifting heavy weights instead.:(
The one thing BJJ showed when UFC first started was that skill and technique can overcome a much larger and stronger opponent. Unfortunately in WC many people mistake skill for fancy hand techniques when in reality the true skill is creating and using angles, maintaining distance, using short sharp bursts of energy to control and disrupt, and delivering shock to the jic seen through fast relaxed strikes. All of which are hard to see and even harder to do.



Wayfaring and SanJuro are right!!!!




On the importance of conditioning I like the wrestling philosophy:

"Conditioning is the greatest hold". Karl Gotch - catch wrestler.

The idea of the weak overcoming the strong, the small overcoming the large, the technically trained overcoming the athlete is the holy grail of all martial arts.

While this can be accomplished, the disparity and mismatch that it's available to overcome is many times less than martial artists would like to believe. And when it does happen many times it's a conditioned smaller athlete overcoming a non-conditioned or lesser conditioned larger person.

Technique is important. Conditioning is important too. I like the viewpoint of viewing conditioning as your greatest technique. I think it's healthy from not only a realistic practical application perspective but also good from a longevity perspective. I want to train hard athletically well into my latter years. Will I be able to compete older against younger athletes? I can sure try. And I can sure surprise them too.


One can't put a degree of importance over the various attributes, ALL are crucial and all need to be developed to their highest potential, there is not one that is more than any other.
The best fighter is the one that has developed his speed, strength, skill and conditioning to its highest degree.

[anerlich]

Im simply saying real skill derives from strength, power, speed, flexibility, timing, cooridation, stamina and accuracy and preceision.

what if your opponent who doesn't do wing chun has more accuracy, precision and cooridation at controlling angles than you do.

I don't have ANY cooridation (he spelt it wrong the same way twice!) so it's a safe bet any opponent who doesn't do wing chun will have at least as much of it as me.

Does cooridation have something to do with American beer?

[Yoshiyahu]

I don't have ANY cooridation (he spelt it wrong the same way twice!) so it's a safe bet any opponent who doesn't do wing chun will have at least as much of it as me.

Does cooridation have something to do with American beer?

lol...did you offer the correct spelling?

[anerlich]

lol...did you offer the correct spelling?

You didn't, why should I?

[imperialtaichi]

"it's not the size, but how you use it." While it's true, "size does matter." ;)

[imperialtaichi]

"it's not the size, but how you use it." While it's true, "size does matter." ;)

I was talking about biceps, of course.

[Yoshiyahu]

coordination is the correct spelling silly man...

now im back to my misspelled words...enugh of your tom fololery!


I don't have ANY cooridation (he spelt it wrong the same way twice!) so it's a safe bet any opponent who doesn't do wing chun will have at least as much of it as me.

Does cooridation have something to do with American beer?

[Runlikehell]

Does cooridation have something to do with American beer?
Yes. It's a special technique used in the brewing process.

[lance]

I sometimes get totally frustrated, when people claims WC is ineffective.

The thing is, learning WC is like learning to drive and getting your driver's liscence; of course, one needs to learn the road rules and adhere to to them. Otherwise you will not pass the driving test.

However, if one wants to be a race/stunt car driver, one needs to take the basic driving skills beyond the "learners" road rules and adapt it and apply it to the type of driving, and the type of roads you want.

Unfortunately, too many "experts" still doing WC like little old lady drivers; and when someone drives their WC like racing drivers, these little old ladies claim they are not driving safely/properly.

WC is not ineffective. It's the little old lady drivers that's ineffective

Sorry for the ranting.


I agree with you .

[JPinAZ]

Im simply saying real skill derives from strength, power, speed, flexibility, timing, cooridation, stamina and accuracy and preceision.

you don't say anything 'simply', and surely not with that spelling.. :rolleyes:

You also said something else, that you ignored when I asked you to clarify:

Most people who do WC only do apart of it...meaning they only have shell of the WC....

what did you base this 'fact' on? Or are you just sitting next to your big ol 55 gallon garbage in your kitchen and pulling out this trash as you go? ;)

[Yoshiyahu]

what was your question???

as for fact...


im sharing mostly opinion from what i see and hear most WC people!!!





you don't say anything 'simply', and surely not with that spelling.. :rolleyes:

You also said something else, that you ignored when I asked you to clarify:


what did you base this 'fact' on? Or are you just sitting next to your big ol 55 gallon garbage in your kitchen and pulling out this trash as you go? ;)

[Tom Kagan]

I sometimes get totally frustrated, when people claims WC is ineffective.

...

Sorry for the ranting.


For a style to be respected by the fighting community, it must achieve the following:


The elites of the style are competitive with the elites of other styles
A demonstrable increase in fighting skill for the average practitioner,
It produces less ****s.


If you cannot show yourself or point to others achieving numbers 1 or 2 above, then you are just another ranting number 3.

Simple solution: Fight them.

If you lose, they are right.

[sanjuro_ronin]

For a style to be respected by the fighting community, it must achieve the following:


The elites of the style are competitive with the elites of other styles
A demonstrable increase in fighting skill for the average practitioner,
It produces less ****s.


If you cannot show yourself or point to others achieving numbers 1 or 2 above, then you are just another ranting number 3.

Simple solution: Fight them.

If you lose, they are right.

That's just crazy talk and just because the pioneers of WC, the likes of WSL and others, did just that doesn't make that kind of talk less crazy !!
Lets chi sao !
:D

[imperialtaichi]

Simple solution: Fight them.

I'm not a thug, and I'm not a monkey.

But if anyone genuinely wants to test the effectiveness of WC I'm always ready.

[Tom Kagan]

I'm not a thug, and I'm not a monkey.

And yet, other people's opinions which differ from yours leave you "totally frustrated". As for what else you are, your first post in this thread made it clear you currently are a ranting number three in the aforementioned list I posted.


But if anyone genuinely wants to test the effectiveness of WC I'm always ready.

If your style is an effective method of learning to fight, then you and/or your students may want to do a little of it. Since you state you are "always ready" to test your fighting effectiveness and the website you promote in your signature mentions your teachings can be applied to sport fighting scenarios, then presumably it would be a simple matter to provide independent evidence previously collected of numbers one and/or two in the aforementioned list.

[imperialtaichi]

And yet, other people's opinions which differ from yours leave you "totally frustrated". As for what else you are, your first post in this thread made it clear you currently are a ranting number three in the aforementioned list I posted.

WhatEVER:rolleyes:

[Yoshiyahu]

The only flaw to your statement is that just because you loose a fight to someone doesn't mean they are right?

I sure the gracies have lost some fights to people. Does that make them wrong?

Even Mike Tyson has lost a fight...does that make him wrong?


The issue is not the style or system of fighting you use. Its not even the effectiveness of a given fighting art. It all boils down to the skill level of the one using the style.

If someone has a crappy martial art system. But their skill level is higher than everyone else they fight...That bull crap fighting system they use will work for them. Not because of the style. But because of them.

They have superior strength,stamina, agility, speed, timing, power and accuracy and percision in advoiding getting hit while landing hits on the other person.

A person who is more skilled will when the fight...not a person with a superior martial art or superior training?



For a style to be respected by the fighting community, it must achieve the following:


The elites of the style are competitive with the elites of other styles
A demonstrable increase in fighting skill for the average practitioner,
It produces less ****s.


If you cannot show yourself or point to others achieving numbers 1 or 2 above, then you are just another ranting number 3.

Simple solution: Fight them.

If you lose, they are right.

[Tom Kagan]

The only flaw to your statement is that just because you loose a fight to someone doesn't mean they are right?

So, you're waiting on foot at an intersection for the light to change and the traffic to stop moving. Right after, you step off the curb. Suddenly a car comes barreling down the avenue headed straight for you. It runs you over and continues off, out of sight.

Question: Did you have the right of way?
Answer: Who the f@ck cares? You're dead.

So, you're whining about how the style of martial art you practice doesn't get respect from the fighting community. You cannot point to sufficient independent proof that the style is, indeed, effective. And when you personally fight, you lose.

Question: Is your style effective?
Answer: Who the f@ck cares? You lost.

One thing is certain after you lose a fight: It's time for you and your style to shut up. Tough luck, too bad. Stop being such a d@rk.


WhatEVER:rolleyes:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by your response. Are you saying you cannot provide independent proof, or are you saying your website makes an inaccurate claim regarding the teachings at your school being applicable to a sport fighting context?

[Mike Patak]

For a style to be respected by the fighting community, it must achieve the following:


The elites of the style are competitive with the elites of other styles
A demonstrable increase in fighting skill for the average practitioner,
It produces less ****s.


If you cannot show yourself or point to others achieving numbers 1 or 2 above, then you are just another ranting number 3.

Simple solution: Fight them.

If you lose, they are right.

Hi Tom. Nice to see a familiar name after being away for so long. Hope life is good. Give my best to William and family.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Question: Is your style effective?
Answer: Who the f@ck cares? You lost.

And done :D

[Yoshiyahu]

The ideology is you win some and you loose you some...There are numerous videos of WC loosing to guys of other styles...Does that mean forget WC an learn how to kickbox or muay thai or mma? No...it simply means you need more practice so your skill level will be higher!



So, you're waiting on foot at an intersection for the light to change and the traffic to stop moving. Right after, you step off the curb. Suddenly a car comes barreling down the avenue headed straight for you. It runs you over and continues off, out of sight.

Question: Did you have the right of way?
Answer: Who the f@ck cares? You're dead.

So, you're whining about how the style of martial art you practice doesn't get respect from the fighting community. You cannot point to sufficient independent proof that the style is, indeed, effective. And when you personally fight, you lose.

Question: Is your style effective?
Answer: Who the f@ck cares? You lost.

One thing is certain after you lose a fight: It's time for you and your style to shut up. Tough luck, too bad. Stop being such a d@rk.



I'm not sure I understand what you mean by your response. Are you saying you cannot provide independent proof, or are you saying your website makes an inaccurate claim regarding the teachings at your school being applicable to a sport fighting context?

[Wayfaring]

So, you're waiting on foot at an intersection for the light to change and the traffic to stop moving. Right after, you step off the curb. Suddenly a car comes barreling down the avenue headed straight for you. It runs you over and continues off, out of sight.

Question: Did you have the right of way?
Answer: Who the f@ck cares? You're dead.

So, you're whining about how the style of martial art you practice doesn't get respect from the fighting community. You cannot point to sufficient independent proof that the style is, indeed, effective. And when you personally fight, you lose.

Question: Is your style effective?
Answer: Who the f@ck cares? You lost.

One thing is certain after you lose a fight: It's time for you and your style to shut up. Tough luck, too bad. Stop being such a d@rk.



I'm not sure I understand what you mean by your response. Are you saying you cannot provide independent proof, or are you saying your website makes an inaccurate claim regarding the teachings at your school being applicable to a sport fighting context?

Sometimes Kagan is one funny mofo. Love it. All that moderation over at Bullshido must have rubbed off.

[Wayfaring]

The ideology is you win some and you loose you some...There are numerous videos of WC loosing to guys of other styles...Does that mean forget WC an learn how to kickbox or muay thai or mma? No...it simply means you need more practice so your skill level will be higher!

Actually it might be beneficial to actually go and watch how kickboxers, mt, and mma guys approach their practice to see what you might need to change in how you practice.

The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and expect different results.

[YouKnowWho]

Actually it might be beneficial to actually go and watch how kickboxers, mt, and mma guys approach their practice to see what you might need to change in how you practice.

The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and expect different results.
Agree 100% there.

This remind me something happened many years ago. After a guy lose his fight, he complained, "What can I do? My opponent has long arms and long legs." From his comment, he had never sparred with people who had long arms and long legs before. If he doesn't find a sparring partner with long arms and long legs, he will lose his fight exactly the same way if the same condition will meet.

[Chadderz]

The ideology is you win some and you loose you some...There are numerous videos of WC loosing to guys of other styles...Does that mean forget WC an learn how to kickbox or muay thai or mma? No...it simply means you need more practice so your skill level will be higher!

I genuinely think WC guys should cross-train vigorously.

[EternalSpring]

The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and expect different results.

perhaps

http://p.twimg.com/AqYJ9HgCQAAnWtG.jpg:large

[Ali. R]

These are some of the things that I’ve recognized (train of thought) from each training form: Sil Lum Tao, Chum Kil and Wooden Man that kept me from deviating from true wing chun structure and to maintain power while sparring in a full contact situation. This is what always seems to keep me in check while sparring (a blessed situation). I’ll talk more about the ‘Wooden Man’ later; have to get back to work.

Sil lum Tao: Form Integrity

To even begin the idea of real time application (clean & recognizable), you have to make sure that the upper extremities from structure to structure connects to and through your stance; and if your stance training focus on sinking energies, which helps keeps the hands very relaxed and responsive to physical reactions with structural integrity from a form/stance point of view. Each movement (application) of your SLT form should literally jam, wedge or slice its way right into your stance. Once you lose your stance in fighting, you’re no longer doing wing chun.

You’re taught to reroute energies with structures in SLT, you can’t do that without a good stance. The more you can control your balance (stance) while under pressure (fighting), the more you can stay calm and responsive with the idea of structural integrity/awareness; that keeps your opponent uncomfortable and off balanced when crowding his/her space. Don’t think about footwork, just stay in your stance no matter what and let your feet move naturally; with or without the idea of bracing (stance alignment with upper extremities); depends on your offense or defense and what you decide to do with them.

The hands will automatically make room to move around, just from having a comfortable seat to sit in (good stance) and from the idea of training structural integrity/awareness. And if one can master the idea of, “he goes fast then you go slow and in reveres; the same for, “he uses hard energies, and then you use soft energies, while training in his/hers drills. That’s mastering the idea of timing and structural/transitional awareness. It’s nothing like beating your opponent by being in the right place and at the right time.

Your hands and arms must have a very strong relationship with your stance (second nature) before the feet can recognize the hands in movement, hence inviting the connection to the early stages of body unity through your stance and upper/lower extremities, which helps promote the idea of: the feet following the hands (Chum Kil).

I’ll do a lot of shadow boxing to always maintain a good connection between my feet and hands.

http://youtu.be/UQ66geARK1c

Also with free style movements in a two man situation which stress the best or proper structure within an open flow of energies (structural integrity).

http://youtu.be/i-l9Awtnd5E



Chum Kil: Form Integrity

‘Sil Lum Tao’ doesn’t trust you to take one step in that form. It isn’t very much more that one can say or do; as far as applications in this stage (CK) because SLT is the seed, and if you fu*ked that up (no mastery), then you need to start over. Don’t just do SLT, but master it. The main thing for me when dealing with ‘Chum Kil’ is mobility, speed and balance; while learning how to put fuel into your overall wing chun structures.

The most common mistakes wing chun fighters make are: they keep their feet and hands separated from their stance while engaging. They look all good before contact is made; with a great and impressive looking wing chun pose to boot. But, when contact begins, they forget to take their feet with them on entry; therefore cutting their stance/energy in half, and can’t produce any recognizable wing chun structures from that point on because they lost their center of gravity -or- balance (looks unrecognizable and very bad).

The stance is the first thing you really need to master, waaaay before the hands. See, it’s like a tree, the thought or foundations/mastering one’s center of gravity are the tree roots, stance and -or- the tree trunk (interdependent structures). Concentrate on this because this development causes a relationship between the applications or limbs using the proper energies from a stance point of view, as the tree’s roots follow the sway of the branches, forming the idea of body unity (moving stance) and while moving the feet naturally with the hands.

The hands are like the leaves. A soft leaf represents a healthy leaf, which tells the tree branch to swing and sway lively and freely. A hard leaf represents a dying leaf, which tells the tree branch to harden up for the winter -or- die. If your tree doesn’t grow healthy (the right combinations of interdependent structures), the roots will never follow/support the sway of the branches (body unity/chum), yet alone, stay in season without reading the leaves (the right application when needed from reaction); meaning the feet will never recognize the hands.

When moving, your applications must move in the form of one, driving each structure together within its place as each intent/outcome of application is only derived through the energies of interdependent structures, and the feet follow the hands through body unity, this is why you’re taught to do the Chum Kil form fast as possible without deviation once you learned it, and have it under control. It’s like building a new relationship between your hands and feet through your stance, while never losing the mentality of SLT when moving; mentally/physically connecting the two forms together.

http://youtu.be/YH2RgRoiQ50n

[sanjuro_ronin]

perhaps

http://p.twimg.com/AqYJ9HgCQAAnWtG.jpg:large

I think you need to re-read what you wrote there.
Practice is suppose to equal BETTER results and when it doesn't, practice gets modified.
Basic learning 101.

[Ali. R]

I believe that there shouldn’t be any sparring in wing chun (three/five years sometimes longer until one has mastered the first three sets.). When dealing with wing chun in a application standpoint, you deal with things that you haven’t experience through life on a regular bases: structures, energy, concepts, and so on. Some men will sometimes take things with an aggressive push or too much zeal, which in most cases it turns physical. There are a lot of things that one can do to develop reflexes, timing, body unit, positioning without knocking each other’s teeth out.

It’s no wonder why some of the history of this system was accredited to women (sensitivity); who knows, maybe its reverse psychology too actually slow down man’s aggressive nature while training in wing chun. Because I think the idea of physical experience (aggressiveness/free style) before the mind is truly stimulated is just a waste of time.

By not understanding the metaphysical connection between what you’re doing and trying to do, and while doing something you truly don’t understand (sparring) is only counterproductive within the true nature from what you’re trying to accomplish or develop. Sil Lum Tao, Chum kil and Wooden Man: are all training forms, if you truly master those forms and the concepts within them; from a stance/form point of view, then everyone will recognize what you’re doing and your skill level will show.

And if one hasn’t trained in a contact sport and doesn’t understand the depth in which one has to gracefully block, pull or counter, he’ll never be able to land a single strike or punch without taking a head shot himself, it takes a strong mental awareness to pull this off and that’s dealing with something natural; like, something you’ve been doing all your life (jab, left, right, hook.).

You have to train everything to the point of it becoming second nature to be able to pull off recognizable wing chun while maintaining strong structural integrity. To get in a ring with something you don’t have by second nature is only about pride or near suicide (just my opinion).

YOU can’t develop good wing chun that way; unless you already have a very strong understanding of body unity and structure awareness to the point of it being second nature (Sil Lum Tao, Chum kil, Wooden Man) and to use it in real time and for it to be successful and recognizable just like anything else in life. When spending so much time deviating, one will become lazy and sour to true or real development within one’s own system in which he or she studies. Hence pushing the idea of the physical or sparring, while trying to supplement their understanding; before it’s truly understood and mastered from a very basic standpoint.

When one can’t do the class work they immediately try to prove their point/value by rushing to the job (physical/free style/applications) and most of the time they fail without the right education. This is why some can’t tell the difference between wing chun or kick boxing when seeing a sparring situation, and what you haven’t mastered will show up in your sparring (trained eye.). That should be even more of a good reason to stick with the training forms as long as one can (If the ego allows It.); to have a solid foundation, is to have working applications, the fastest way to true wing chun development.

A lot of wing chun practitioners/fighters sometimes develop a bad foundation from a stance point of view. If you truly understand how to re-route energy within your stance -or- defend yourself with very little movement/effort and without being pushed, picked up or pulled from your stance, while letting the lower extremities move naturally.

Only then will you have a strong chance to develop a recognizable interpretation of what your system is; or look like within a metaphysical idea -or- in real time application; meaning that the lower extremities will recognize the upper extremities when under pressure, physically forming the idea of body unity. Then everyone can clearly see what is; and what you’ve done while sparring.

Wing Chun has a great inside game (clinch, traps and sensitivity) which all stems from a very strong stance. In which keeps this fighting system recognizable and clean to the eye. We should have a good understanding of structural awareness (upper extremities) in which connects and keeps a strong stance manageable and mobile while the feet follow the hands.

We’re quick to rush in judgment (physical) to prove a point; by not giving our sensitive train of thought a chance to examine. And it’s not based in what system you may train in that causes deviation, but it’s one’s own train of thought. Anyway, it’s your development within the system that counts.

Ali

[Wayfaring]

I believe that there shouldn’t be any sparring in wing chun (three/five years sometimes longer until one has mastered the first three sets.).

I completely disagree. Look at what the functional or combat arts are doing for comparison. You see people walking in off the street with zero training, and within one year be able to effectively compete in an amateur MMA match complete with striking and grappling. And the one year of training is from the more conservative or better schools. Many fly-by-night schools will go with the trial-by-fire method of putting someone in a fight within three months.

If you wait 3 years before any sparring in wing chun, in comparison that aligns with a MMA fighter having around 6 or 7 amateur fights, and being almost ready to turn pro. Starting to spar then is going to put someone so far behind it will be next to impossible to catch up.

I think there should be sparring from day one in training. There are plenty of ways to control that to help provide exposure to noobs without detrimental effects.

Or I guess the alternative is to stop promoting rhetoric around building fighting skill, and just accept the inevitable conclusion of building standard businessmen into paper mache tigers.

[k gledhill]

I completely disagree. Look at what the functional or combat arts are doing for comparison. You see people walking in off the street with zero training, and within one year be able to effectively compete in an amateur MMA match complete with striking and grappling. And the one year of training is from the more conservative or better schools. Many fly-by-night schools will go with the trial-by-fire method of putting someone in a fight within three months.

If you wait 3 years before any sparring in wing chun, in comparison that aligns with a MMA fighter having around 6 or 7 amateur fights, and being almost ready to turn pro. Starting to spar then is going to put someone so far behind it will be next to impossible to catch up.

I think there should be sparring from day one in training. There are plenty of ways to control that to help provide exposure to noobs without detrimental effects.

Or I guess the alternative is to stop promoting rhetoric around building fighting skill, and just accept the inevitable conclusion of building standard businessmen into paper mache tigers.

Agree, crazy to teach a fluid mobile fighting method by not addressing real speeds of action, balanced movement under pressure...

[Ali. R]

I completely disagree. Look at what the functional or combat arts are doing for comparison. You see people walking in off the street with zero training, and within one year be able to effectively compete in an amateur MMA match complete with striking and grappling. And the one year of training is from the more conservative or better schools. Many fly-by-night schools will go with the trial-by-fire method of putting someone in a fight within three months.

If you wait 3 years before any sparring in wing chun, in comparison that aligns with a MMA fighter having around 6 or 7 amateur fights, and being almost ready to turn pro. Starting to spar then is going to put someone so far behind it will be next to impossible to catch up.

I think there should be sparring from day one in training. There are plenty of ways to control that to help provide exposure to noobs without detrimental effects.

Or I guess the alternative is to stop promoting rhetoric around building fighting skill, and just accept the inevitable conclusion of building standard businessmen into paper mache tigers.

It’s good to disagree, it keeps the mind flowing and sometimes help those who can see what others can’t.

You are dealing with energies/mind set unlike boxing, grappling, and so on… Right from the time when you were a little child you can recognize most of the moves and concepts from boxing, grappling, and many other physical ideas when it comes to fighting and sports.

But if you haven’t develop a good relationship with concepts that you never seen or heard of before, when sparring you’ll only go right back to what’s natural within your muscle memory, and without the right mentality you’ll never get started in learning anything.

Hence, throwing your art right out of the window while sparring prematurely, and will still try to claim it as an authentic demonstration of what you’ve studied, when it’s clear that there is no development, mentally and physically. Wing Chun or kung fu is not MMA.

If someone walks the streets wondering when and if he or she will have a fight, then they need to move away from that area or grow up. If you want to be able to defend yourself on a pro level using kung fu; within one year of training, I suggest learn to do this and get good at it, or take MMA.

http://youtu.be/m_vZ90qpvxo

Ali

[Ali. R]

Agree, crazy to teach a fluid mobile fighting method by not addressing real speeds of action, balanced movement under pressure...

Oh it’s taught, but in the right time of development, and not because one may think he’s ready to fight, but his training will dictate the next level, if one is true to himself.

Ali.

[Phil Redmond]

Wing Chun was developed to fight the Manchu as quick as possible. It is a martial art so it's about the fighting. Fighting should start as soon as possible. Who cares if it looks pretty as long as you win.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You learn to fight by fighting, period.
No way around it.
To state that a WC practitioner shouldn't fight in the first 3 years ( much less 5, LOL), is stating that WC is GROSSLY INFERIOR to every other MA in which the practitioner can AND does fight even before those time frames, and they fight well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wing Chun was developed to fight the Manchu as quick as possible. It is a martial art so it's about the fighting. Fighting should start as soon as possible. Who cares if it looks pretty as long as you win.

Yep, and I add that in NO WAY can you EVER develop correct structure, footwork and technique to counter a LIVE opponent UNLESS you fight and fight often.

[k gledhill]

It’s good to disagree, it keeps the mind flowing and sometimes help those who can see what others can’t see.

You are dealing with energies/mind set unlike boxing, grappling, and so on… Right from the time when you were a little child you can recognize most of the moves and concepts from boxing, grappling, and many other physical ideas when it comes to fighting and sports.

But if you haven’t develop a good relationship with concepts that you never seen or heard of before, when sparring you’ll only go right back to what’s natural within your muscle memory, and without the right mentality you’ll never get started in learning anything.

Hence, throwing your art right out of the window while sparring immaturely, and will still try to claim it as a ligament/demonstration of what you’ve studied, when it’s clear that there is no development, mentally and physically. Wing Chun or kung fu is not MMA.

If someone walks the streets wondering when; and if he or she will have a fight, then they need to move away from that area or grow up. If you want to be able to defend yourself on a pro level using kung fu within A year of training, I suggest learn to do this and get good at it, or take MMA.

http://youtu.be/m_vZ90qpvxo

Ali

Ving Tsun REQUIRES sparring as a goal to aim for ....unless you want to wait 5 years to figure out you made an error for 5 years before learning it was there ...er, sparring.

Sparring doesnt have to be brutal, it has levels of pressure a teacher can put a student under to show the student and teacher where weaknesses might be....

Drills are modules that allow a mutual exchange and pressure increases, tests , NOT to spar, the drills are the correction time.

Sparring is Pressure testing the whole package.

[Ali. R]

You learn to fight by fighting, period.
No way around it.
To state that a WC practitioner shouldn't fight in the first 3 years ( much less 5, LOL), is stating that WC is GROSSLY INFERIOR to every other MA in which the practitioner can AND does fight even before those time frames, and they fight well.

Sure, you learn to fight by fighting, but if you don’t study or master your weapon; then you and your weapon will not be as one. If your gun jams in combat, you should be able to break it down within second; because you were trained to master that weapon before using it.

Ali

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sure, you learn to fight by fighting, but if you don’t study or master your weapon; then you and your weapon will not be as one. If your gun jams in combat, you should be able to break it down within second; because you were trained to master that weapon before using it.

Ali

You can't master something without using it dude.

[Ali. R]

Ving Tsun REQUIRES sparring as a goal to aim for ....unless you want to wait 5 years to figure out you made an error for 5 years before learning it was there ...er, sparring.

Sparring doesnt have to be brutal, it has levels of pressure a teacher can put a student under to show the student and teacher where weaknesses might be....

Drills are modules that allow a mutual exchange and pressure increases, tests , NOT to spar, the drills are the correction time.

Sparring is Pressure testing the whole package.


In Wing Chun you train to spar, then from there you learn how to fight/spar.

Ali

[free2flow]

Think this is relevant to the topic:

Progressive resistance and Variable Intensity.

http://jkdunlimited.com/articles/by-burton-richardson/progressive-resistance-and-variable-intensity/

[Phil Redmond]

Ving Tsun REQUIRES sparring as a goal to aim for ....unless you want to wait 5 years to figure out you made an error for 5 years before learning it was there ...er, sparring.

Sparring doesnt have to be brutal, it has levels of pressure a teacher can put a student under to show the student and teacher where weaknesses might be....

Drills are modules that allow a mutual exchange and pressure increases, tests , NOT to spar, the drills are the correction time.

Sparring is Pressure testing the whole package.

We agree Kevin......:confused: jk

[Ali. R]

You can't master something without using it dude.

Inter -or- outer workings of anything that may need brain power to bring into reality or into the physical realm (the concept of understanding), like reading before writing.

Ali

[sanjuro_ronin]

Inter -or- outer workings of anything that may needs brain power to bring into reality or into the physical realm (the concept of understanding), like reading before writing.

Ali

Note you said READING, an activity.
I have serious reservations when I hear of MA teachers that keep their students from actually FIGHTING with their MA.

[Ali. R]

Note you said READING, an activity.
I have serious reservations when I hear of MA teachers that keep their students from actually FIGHTING with their MA.

Of course it’s an activity, but without any physical attributes other then sight and mind to form an understanding. Just like doing the SLT, CK and Wooden Man or drills (developing a good understanding of muscle memory/mental awareness/structural integrity).

I have students that fight all the time, put only when they're ready.

Ali

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course it’ an activity, but without any physical attributes other then sight and mind to form an understanding. Just like doing the SLT, CK and Wooden Man or drills (developing a good understanding of muscle memory/mental awareness).

Ali

Its not a case of either/or, its a case of both, a case of one complimenting the other and development being complete with all facets.
WC is not inferior to other MA nor are WC students ( or teachers) inferior that they need to be "coddled" for years, that's just silly.
There is nothing complex about WC other than what people MAKE complex.

I tell this here and to anyone:
Wanna make your WC effective and practical?
Test and fight against other systems and you will find ALL the "secrets" that you need to do just that.
That is THE tradition of WC:
Fighting other systems.

[Ali. R]

Its not a case of either/or, its a case of both, a case of one complimenting the other and development being complete with all facets.
WC is not inferior to other MA nor are WC students ( or teachers) inferior that they need to be "coddled" for years, that's just silly.
There is nothing complex about WC other than what people MAKE complex.

I tell this here and to anyone:
Wanna make your WC effective and practical?
Test and fight against other systems and you will find ALL the "secrets" that you need to do just that.

That is THE tradition of WC:
Fighting other systems.


You have to master each tool in the box, mentally. Because, if it’s not engraved in your mind first (the understanding), then you’ll do something different physically. Like spas out and lose something as simple as your stance and center of gravity; then you already lost the fight.

Well, you wouldn’t be doing wing chun after you lose your stance away. I hope I’m not complicated; if so, could you quote where, and then I’ll explain.

Learning wing chun from mistakes an errors (sparring) first, before it’s truly understood and mastered mentally, is like destroying your Christmas present while unwrapping it before you get it out of the package.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You have to master each tool in the box, mentally. Because, if it’s not engraved in your mind first (the understanding), then you’ll do something different physically. Like spas out and lose something as simple as your stance and center of gravity; then you already lose the fight.

Well, you wouldn’t be doing wing chun after you lose your stance away. I hope I’m not complicated; if so, could you quote where, and then I’ll explain.

Learning wing chun from trail an error before it’s truly understood and mastered mentally, is like destroying your Christmas presents while unwrapping it before you get it out of the package.

You are trying to master something WITHOUT doing what it is used for, which is the only way to lead to mastery.
That is like trying to be a carpenter by perfecting the hold of the hammer WITHOUT hammering !

[Ali. R]

You are trying to master something WITHOUT doing what it is used for, which is the only way to lead to mastery.
That is like trying to be a carpenter by perfecting the hold of the hammer WITHOUT hammering !

I’m mastering structures and how they connect to my stance, I’m mastering my forms, so my hands can move in second nature with my intent, I’m mastering the lop sao to find the right line change (and many other drills).

I'll master these things to learn how to spar, while using this system without structural deviation and not resorting to boxing or kickboxing, because I choose to walk away from complete understanding (mentally/physically). There is a time for everything.

Ali

[sanjuro_ronin]

I’m mastering structures and how they connect to my stance, I’m mastering my forms, so my hands can move in second nature with my intent, I’m mastering the lop sao to find the right line change (and many other drills).

I'll master these things to learn how to spar, while using this system without structural deviation and not resorting to boxing or kickboxing, because I choose to walk away from complete understanding (mentally/physically). There is a time for everything.

Ali

How can you master these things when to master them they MUST be applied in the dynamic environment that is combat and not pre-arranged and controled VS another WC person, but someone that will NOT "play the same game".

[Ali. R]

How can you master these things when to master them they MUST be applied in the dynamic environment that is combat and not pre-arranged and controled VS another WC person, but someone that will NOT "play the same game".

You master it’s very existence from the stage of what is and then develop its understanding mentally first, from the stage of structural integrity/awareness, then test how well you understand your overall development in each of the training levels after you learn how to spar.

The way I see it; you’re saying that you really can’t learn anything from the training levels of this system: SLT, CK, WM, unless you just fight with them and drop anything that they have to offer in development. But I’m sure they’re called training forms for a reason and I’m a strong believer that anything you train in, you should master.

One will have he's time to spar,

Ali

[Robinhood]

And yet, other people's opinions which differ from yours leave you "totally frustrated". As for what else you are, your first post in this thread made it clear you currently are a ranting number three in the aforementioned list I posted.



If your style is an effective method of learning to fight, then you and/or your students may want to do a little of it. Since you state you are "always ready" to test your fighting effectiveness and the website you promote in your signature mentions your teachings can be applied to sport fighting scenarios, then presumably it would be a simple matter to provide independent evidence previously collected of numbers one and/or two in the aforementioned list.

Sport fighting does not test fighting effectiveness, it more or less tests strength, power, speed, and condition of practitioners, not much room left for the art, that's why it usually always looks like the same old thing.


If you wanted to test effectiveness, you would see who could get something done with the least amount of energy used.


Cheers

[Ali. R]

Sport fighting does not test fighting effectiveness, it more or less tests strength, power, speed, and condition of practitioners, not much room left for the art, that's why it usually always looks like the same old thing.


If you wanted to test effectiveness, you would see who could get something done with the least amount of energy used.


Cheers

Wow, that was nice, real nice...

[anerlich]

If you wanted to test effectiveness, you would see who could get something done with the least amount of energy used.

That is efficiency, not effectiveness. They are not the same.

To test fighting effectiveness, you need to fight people and beat them. The only way to do that legally outside of war is sportfighting.


not much room left for the art,

If you are winning, WGAF.

[Wayfaring]

Sport fighting does not test fighting effectiveness, it more or less tests strength, power, speed, and condition of practitioners, not much room left for the art, that's why it usually always looks like the same old thing.

If you wanted to test effectiveness, you would see who could get something done with the least amount of energy used.


Cheers

So your solution is to have fat@$$3$ spar who have no strength, power, speed, or conditioning? See which one wins using the least amount of energy?

Wow - I can see it now. You could start a new competition - and call it the Ultimate F@t@$$ Championships. Not only would you have room left for the art, but also room left for that extra cheeseburger.

:D:D:D

[GlennR]

Sport fighting does not test fighting effectiveness, it more or less tests strength, power, speed, and condition of practitioners, not much room left for the art, that's why it usually always looks like the same old thing.


If you wanted to test effectiveness, you would see who could get something done with the least amount of energy used.


Cheers

Nonsense to the 1st paragraph

And more of the same in the second.

[EternalSpring]

I think you need to re-read what you wrote there.
Practice is suppose to equal BETTER results and when it doesn't, practice gets modified.
Basic learning 101.

I actually stole it from someone who posted it on facebook lol

but that said, wouldn't "practice leading to modified practice" still require repetition of the same thing over and over while expecting "different (aka better, since no one practices to get worse)" results? In a Ving Tsun related example, it's not like someone learns Siu Nim Tao and then trains it for one day and thinks "well, im done with that, time to modify my training to make it more useful." Just like boxers continue to use tried and proven methods of training to get better (ex: shadowboxing, pad/mitt training, etc), because they know that doing those same things will make them better, at least the way i see it.

also, i dont see how one can realize that their practice has stopped yielding results unless they do something repetitively and see that their most recent practice session was less beneficial relative to previous sessions of training the same thing. but thats just me.

[EternalSpring]

Right from the time when you were a little child you can recognize most of the moves and concepts from boxing, grappling, and many other physical ideas when it comes to fighting and sports.



tbh, this isn't completely true imo. A person may be familiar with boxing and grappling, but even when he puts his hands up in what he "thinks" is a boxing guard, that guard is near useless compared to a real guard, and the same goes with his other offensive and defensive tactics, at least from my experience. Likewise, a person may understand that grabbing someone and manipulating or throwing them is "grappling," but they have no idea how to use their energy, disrupt the opponents center of gravity/balance/etc, and overall how to utilize their bodies correctly to do the moves they see.

[anerlich]

Right from the time when you were a little child you can recognize most of the moves and concepts from boxing, grappling, and many other physical ideas when it comes to fighting and sports.

Oh sure, I recognised the spinunder omoplata from Z guard the first time I saw it.

[imperialtaichi]

Yep. I can be a fighter pilot from my flight simulator game on my Mac.

Similarly, I can become a proficient fighter just training my forms and Chi Sau in a dojo.

NOT!!! :rolleyes:

[imperialtaichi]

Reality check:

All these energy, efficiency, technique stuff's fine. But, the guy who gets hit harder is going to fall.

The question is, how to hit and not get hit (much).

[GlennR]

Reality check:

All these energy, efficiency, technique stuff's fine. But, the guy who gets hit harder is going to fall.

The question is, how to hit and not get hit (much).

Exactly John.
And, from the sports fighters book who more than likely hits harder than 99% of WC guys, he'd argue that his one shot KO power is more efficient than multiple hits doing the same thing, which is what the majority of traditionalist would need.

[nasmedicine]

the question is, how to hit and not get hit (much).

ftw! .

[imperialtaichi]

Exactly John.
And, from the sports fighters book who more than likely hits harder than 99% of WC guys, he'd argue that his one shot KO power is more efficient than multiple hits doing the same thing, which is what the majority of traditionalist would need.

Yes. I don't believe in chain punching with small force will cause much damage to the opponent. The repeated and predictable action is also easy to counter.

However, I am a believer of continuous attack, coming from everywhere and unpredictable, as a way to overwhelm the opponent and create weaknesses in his defense, for the purpose of setting up the kill shot.

It's kinda like, throwing a bucket of sharp nails at the guy with a sledge hammer hidden inside :D

[CFT]

You have to master each tool in the box, mentally. Because, if it’s not engraved in your mind first (the understanding), then you’ll do something different physically. Like spas out and lose something as simple as your stance and center of gravity; then you already lost the fight.Experience is the best teacher. It informs you what you are lacking. Then you go back practice some more and maybe modify your practice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I actually stole it from someone who posted it on facebook lol

but that said, wouldn't "practice leading to modified practice" still require repetition of the same thing over and over while expecting "different (aka better, since no one practices to get worse)" results? In a Ving Tsun related example, it's not like someone learns Siu Nim Tao and then trains it for one day and thinks "well, im done with that, time to modify my training to make it more useful." Just like boxers continue to use tried and proven methods of training to get better (ex: shadowboxing, pad/mitt training, etc), because they know that doing those same things will make them better, at least the way i see it.

also, i dont see how one can realize that their practice has stopped yielding results unless they do something repetitively and see that their most recent practice session was less beneficial relative to previous sessions of training the same thing. but thats just me.

The issue is that practice for the sake of practice is inferior to practice for the sake of improvement.
No one is saying NOT to practice, what is being said is to make your practice effective and efficient and the critique is on doing the same thing over and over and NOT getting results and continue to do the same thing over and over and STILL NOT get results.
And yes, many people do just that.

[Ali. R]

Experience is the best teacher. It informs you what you are lacking. Then you go back practice some more and maybe modify your practice.

How can one modify something, when one chose not to fully understand it, and without complete knowledge of what he’s practicing? ;)

[Ali. R]

Oh sure, I recognised the spinunder omoplata from Z guard the first time I saw it.

It’s evident that you don’t understand what I’m saying, but I’m following and reading you guys very well and carefully, and I’m beginning to understand now. I’ll put it in another way; you may not learn all of the movements of a fighting system as a kid, but you learn most of the energies/body mechanics that it takes to easily help drive aggressiveness/mental awareness and with a strong development of muscle memory.

Most children didn’t grow up like I did with a lot of activity to do. T-Ball/Little League Baseball: as a child it teaches big time hand-eye coordination; from throwing the ball one can easily be taught how to throw a punch just from having good form while playing baseball. It’s the same with Little League Football, High School Wrestling and Basketballs; they all can get pretty physical.

A lot of the movements/muscle memories from childhood activities can cross right over/ in being a knowledgeable supplement of understanding for aggressiveness and mental awareness which can easily make him/her stand out from the others, in most cases; when it comes to almost anything physical in their later years as an adult.

If you’re learning Wing Chun, then; what I’ve mention above should be stripped away from you, because there is nothing in this system that warrants that type of attitude, energies or body mechanics. But you learn how to have an understanding of some sort mostly on consistent basis dealing with kicking, punching, takedowns, grappling, while growing up in your own backyard, at least I did. There was nothing that mentally/physically prepared me for Wing Chun as a child.

[CFT]

How can one modify something, when one chose not to fully understand it, and without complete knowledge of what he’s practicing? ;)That's your teacher/coach's job.

[Ali. R]

That's your teacher/coach's job.


I’m sorry; I thought you said experience was… Your teacher cannot develop your wing chun, your understanding should be developed from within your own mental awareness.

Your teacher’s wing chun is not yours, but his only.

[CFT]

Your teacher/coach teaches you the basics first of all.
You do the hard work of practice and test yourself against others.
This experience will inform you as to what works and what does not work for you.
Your teacher/coach can provide independent feedback - this is what usually happens in all athletic endeavours.

[LoneTiger108]

I’m sorry; I thought you said experience was… Your teacher cannot develop your wing chun, your understanding should be developed from within your own mental awareness.

Your teacher’s wing chun is not yours, but his only.

Sorry to jump into a thread, but I'm bored at work and just noticed this one was throbbing with activity!! Good or bad activity? Well...

What you say here is one of the biggest misconceptions of having a Martial Art Sifu. I don't exactly know where it comes from, but I would guess it's got something to do with Ip Man and WSLs relationship ;)

Look, your Sifu will be with you for life if you are loyal to him and respect the practises he has shared with you. The only time I hear/see people say things like you have is when they have left their Sifu and can not return. Many many people have this negative experience in Wing Chun, which has influenced the later generations to be more independent and Sifu-less. Kinda like a Ronin in many ways.

My Sifu once said to me "I can show you the door, but you must walk though it"

This is meant to mean he will not be standing next to you every day and be involved with your own life/fights. You have to do that yourself and stand alone as a man. Take the step yourself.

But this does not mean you can not return for further advice and support, and any good Sifu will offer that to his students. Forever.

And FWIW and from what I have seen in almost every clip I have viewed on Wing Chun, EVERYBODY'S Wing Chun is EXACTLY like their Sifus!!! ;)

[Ali. R]

Sorry to jump into a thread, but I'm bored at work and just noticed this one was throbbing with activity!! Good or bad activity? Well...

What you say here is one of the biggest misconceptions of having a Martial Art Sifu. I don't exactly know where it comes from, but I would guess it's got something to do with Ip Man and WSLs relationship ;)

Look, your Sifu will be with you for life if you are loyal to him and respect the practises he has shared with you. The only time I hear/see people say things like you have is when they have left their Sifu and can not return. Many many people have this negative experience in Wing Chun, which has influenced the later generations to be more independent and Sifu-less. Kinda like a Ronin in many ways.

My Sifu once said to me "I can show you the door, but you must walk though it"

This is meant to mean he will not be standing next to you every day and be involved with your own life/fights. You have to do that yourself and stand alone as a man. Take the step yourself.

But this does not mean you can not return for further advice and support, and any good Sifu will offer that to his students. Forever.

And FWIW and from what I have seen in almost every clip I have viewed on Wing Chun, EVERYBODY'S Wing Chun is EXACTLY like their Sifus!!! ;)

No one ever said anything about not listening or taking advice from your teacher, what I’m saying is; that you’re responsible for your own complete understanding, no one else.
This is why your teacher’s understanding /wing chun will never be yours.

And if a teacher has students that look the same when in action, then he’s creating clones, which means none of his student are yet relaxed with the understanding or development to gain a personal relationship/identity of their own while in action.

[Ali. R]

Your teacher/coach teaches you the basics first of all.
You do the hard work of practice and test yourself against others.
This experience will inform you as to what works and what does not work for you.
Your teacher/coach can provide independent feedback - this is what usually happens in all athletic endeavours.

But, that depends on what the basic are; and what one may consider practice. I didn’t hear anything on development, maybe that’s what you call hard work/practice.

If one truly understood what he was taught, and what he’s trying to develop while spending time doing training forms (SLT, CK, and Wooden Man), then he wouldn’t need anyone to tell him what went wrong.

He would know all by himself because of his total mental/physical understanding of his forms, and he would know which form/drills to trouble shoot his problems with, because of his knowledge and understand of structural integrity.

[EternalSpring]

The issue is that practice for the sake of practice is inferior to practice for the sake of improvement.
No one is saying NOT to practice, what is being said is to make your practice effective and efficient and the critique is on doing the same thing over and over and NOT getting results and continue to do the same thing over and over and STILL NOT get results.
And yes, many people do just that.

well, so lets take another look at what i originally posted that you responded to:
http://p.twimg.com/AqYJ9HgCQAAnWtG.jpg:large


It says that doing something over and over and expecting different results is what we know as "practice."

So how did you deduce that this picture somehow implied that practice for the sake of practice, or practice with no results (the exact opposite of what the picture defines practice as) is a good thing in any way? The things you mention as bad aren't at all implied by the picture. And i have a feeling that even you did deduce something like that (which i dont think you can anyways), you'd have to take some roundabout abstract way to do it rather than see the obvious straightforward point of the quote.

but hey, maybe im missing something about this pic, so feel free to point it out. After all, if I'm spreading a wrong mentality around, I might as well know so i can stop.

[imperialtaichi]

My Sifu once said to me "I can show you the door, but you must walk though it"

This is meant to mean he will not be standing next to you every day and be involved with your own life/fights. You have to do that yourself and stand alone as a man. Take the step yourself.

But this does not mean you can not return for further advice and support, and any good Sifu will offer that to his students. Forever.

And FWIW and from what I have seen in almost every clip I have viewed on Wing Chun, EVERYBODY'S Wing Chun is EXACTLY like their Sifus!!! ;)

Yes, from what I have seen, even with the best fighter teachers, the students who hang around their teachers every hour every day rarely become the best fighters; it's the ones who move out, doing their own things, setting up their own schools etc while remaining a close relationship with their teachers who becomes the top notch fighters. TST once told me personally, "John, if you want to be good, you'll have to teach. Not just teach, but teach everything, and teach well."

However, I don't think all the best guys do the same as their teachers; for example, TST and WSL are different, so at least one of them (or both) is different from Ip Man. WKL is yet again different from WSL, and the list goes on....

[anerlich]

I’m following and reading you guys very well and carefully, and I’m beginning to understand now.

I don't think you are, actually.

[Ali. R]

I don't think you are, actually.

Ok,,,, what did you really mean when you wrote this.


Oh sure, I recognised the spinunder omoplata from Z guard the first time I saw it.

Hey, we’re just having a conversation, right; could you help us understand what you were saying when you wrote that, or what haven’t I understood so far?

I’m sure this is the post that was in question.

It’s evident that you don’t understand what I’m saying, but I’m following and reading you guys very well and carefully, and I’m beginning to understand now. I’ll put it in another way; you may not learn all of the movements of a fighting system as a kid, but you learn most of the energies/body mechanics that it takes to easily help drive aggressiveness/mental awareness and with a strong development of muscle memory.

Most children didn’t grow up like I did with a lot of activity to do. T-Ball/Little League Baseball: as a child it teaches big time hand-eye coordination; from throwing the ball one can easily be taught how to throw a punch just from having good form while playing baseball. It’s the same with Little League Football, High School Wrestling and Basketballs; they all can get pretty physical.

A lot of the movements/muscle memories from childhood activities can cross right over/ in being a knowledgeable supplement of understanding for aggressiveness and mental awareness which can easily make him/her stand out from the others, in most cases; when it comes to almost anything physical in their later years as adult.

If you’re learning Wing Chun, then; what I’ve mention above should be stripped away from you, because there is nothing in this system that warrants that type of attitude, energies or body mechanics. But you learn how to have an understanding of some sort, mostly on a consistent basis dealing with kicking, punching, takedowns, grappling, while growing up in your own backyard, at least I did. There was nothing that mentally/physically prepared me for Wing Chun as a child.

Here’s my premise with some practitioners; it’s more of a sport usage of the forms then a development (interdependent structures /structural (energies) integrity/structural awareness).

All of which should be engraved in a form of muscle memory.

Take care,

[Wayfaring]

It’s evident that you don’t understand what I’m saying, but I’m following and reading you guys very well and carefully, and I’m beginning to understand now. I’ll put it in another way; you may not learn all of the movements of a fighting system as a kid, but you learn most of the energies/body mechanics that it takes to easily help drive aggressiveness/mental awareness and with a strong development of muscle memory.

A good athletic childhood background certainly can set the stage for basic attributes that need to be developed later in WCK / fighting.

However, there is specific fundamental athletic action in throwing punches, in takedowns, in ground fighting that are not developed at all from other specific athletic endeavors.


Most children didn’t grow up like I did with a lot of activity to do. T-Ball/Little League Baseball: as a child it teaches big time hand-eye coordination; from throwing the ball one can easily be taught how to throw a punch just from having good form while playing baseball. It’s the same with Little League Football, High School Wrestling and Basketballs; they all can get pretty physical.

The mechanics of thowing a ball and punching couldn't be more different. They are different fundamental physical actions. Ball throwing is a pull motion, with a very limited amount of push at the end more for control. Punching is a push motion.

If you study similar arts, then yes fundamentals transfer. For example, competitive wrestlers tend to do well at BJJ (at least from the top) as motions are similar.



A lot of the movements/muscle memories from childhood activities can cross right over/ in being a knowledgeable supplement of understanding for aggressiveness and mental awareness which can easily make him/her stand out from the others, in most cases; when it comes to almost anything physical in their later years as adult.

A lot of this discussion depends on the granularity you are looking at. From a 15,000 ft. level any athletic ability aids in the development of any other athletic ability.

The more granularly you look the less things transfer. Also the higher level you want to play at that is true as well. The very elite at different arts completely modify their conditioning to be sport specific in the strength and conditioning areas.



If you’re learning Wing Chun, then; what I’ve mention above should be stripped away from you, because there is nothing in this system that warrants that type of attitude, energies or body mechanics. But you learn how to have an understanding of some sort mostly on consistent basis dealing with kicking, punching, takedowns, grappling, while growing up in your own backyard, at least I did. There was nothing that mentally/physically prepared me for Wing Chun as a child.

Good training in Wing Chun, boxing, wrestling, BJJ, and even MMA has to strip everything down to the core fundamentals of movement and re-train them. Then other actions are tied in and trained over this. (Ex: You can't escape side control in grappling easily until you learn the fundamental shrimping movement).

[anerlich]

Quote:
Right from the time when you were a little child you can recognize most of the moves and concepts from boxing, grappling, and many other physical ideas when it comes to fighting and sports.
Oh sure, I recognised the spinunder omoplata from Z guard the first time I saw it.

I don't accept what seems to be your first premise, at least when it comes to grappling.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, in particular, is designed to take advantage of common natural reactions to the untrained person finding himself under threat in unfamiliar positions. Much of BJJ is counterintuitive. You do the opposite of what "common sense" tells you to do. And some aspects of BJJ, like half guard attacks (of which Z guard is a variant) , have only been seen as possible and undergone real development in the last decade or so. Hardly something a child recognises intuitively.


Hey, we’re just having a conversation, right

Seemed a bit more like you trying to deliver a lecture.


Right from the time when you were a little child you can recognize most of the moves and concepts from boxing, grappling, and many other physical ideas when it comes to fighting and sports.

There was nothing that mentally/physically prepared me for Wing Chun as a child.

And apparently contradicting yourself.


Lmao!

Careful, the joke just might be on you.

[Wayfaring]

I don't accept what seems to be your first premise, at least when it comes to grappling.

You are spot on.


Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, in particular, is designed to take advantage of common natural reactions to the untrained person finding himself under threat in unfamiliar positions. Much of BJJ is counterintuitive. You do the opposite of what "common sense" tells you to do. And some aspects of BJJ, like half guard attacks (of which Z guard is a variant) , have only been seen as possible and undergone real development in the last decade or so. Hardly something a child recognises intuitively.

IMO BJJ in particular is a very interesting example. This art is absolutely changing at lightning speed and evolving due to competition and use of video/youtube for instruction and competition footage. Nobody knew what a berimbolo was 5 yrs ago - it took Rafa Mendes winning with it for it to become popular (fun to check out - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHikSZK5jc4).

[Ali. R]

Your reply is like saying: I can’t train wing chun this week because my karate gi is dirty.


Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, in particular, is designed to take advantage of common natural reactions to the untrained person finding himself under threat in unfamiliar positions.

You’re really funny. I’m sure it’s not on me; look again, and I waited a whole day for this reply (well over 24hr)?

‘Greco Roman Wrestling’ is a High School sport that won a UFC Championship (Brock Lesnar/Mark Coleman/others) many, many times.

Come on,

[k gledhill]

You are spot on.

IMO BJJ in particular is a very interesting example. This art is absolutely changing at lightning speed and evolving due to competition and use of video/youtube for instruction and competition footage. Nobody knew what a berimbolo was 5 yrs ago - it took Rafa Mendes winning with it for it to become popular (fun to check out - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHikSZK5jc4).

Its a great move...

[GlennR]

Your reply is like saying: I can’t train wing chun this week, because my karate gi is dirty.



You’re really funny. I’m sure it’s not on me; look again. And I waited a whole day for this reply. ‘Greco Roman Wrestling’ is a High School sport that won a UFC Championship (Brock Lesener/others) many, many times.

Come on,


And here in Australia, where anerlich and myself are from, wrestling is a very rare sport and certainly not practised at high school, college etc. If you want to learn it you have to look for it.

The world doesnt revolve around the States you know

[k gledhill]

And here in Australia, where anerlich and myself are from, wrestling is a very rare sport and certainly not practised at high school, college etc. If you want to learn it you have to look for it.

The world doesnt revolve around the States you know

Really ? I too did wrestling in school while in U.S.A. I later moved to the UK and entered the 'dead zone' of school sports, aside from 'games day friday, x country running :rolleyes: rugby and soccer, cricket :D

[Ali. R]

wrestling is a very rare sport and certainly not practised at high school, college etc. If you want to learn it you have to look for it.

The world doesnt revolve around the States you know

This is why I’d started off by saying; “most children didn’t grow up like I did”.

Take Care,

[GlennR]

Really ? I too did wrestling in school while in U.S.A. I later moved to the UK and entered the 'dead zone' of school sports, aside from 'games day friday, x country running :rolleyes: rugby and soccer, cricket :D

Its exactly the same here.

Summer..... cricket and tennis, swimming as well

Winter....... Rugby (league and union), soccer and AFL (Australian Football)

That would sum up the sports offered at Schools here pretty much, especially for guys the age of Andrew and myself

[GlennR]

This is why I’d started off by saying; “most children didn’t grow up like I did”.

Take Care,

Your not making your point clear???

[Ali. R]

Your not making your point clear???

When you said this:

The world doesnt revolve around the States you know

Then I said:

This is why I’d started off by saying; “most children didn’t grow up like I did”.


I’m referring to this post here:

It’s evident that you don’t understand what I’m saying, but I’m following and reading you guys very well and carefully, and I’m beginning to understand now. I’ll put it in another way; you may not learn all of the movements of a fighting system as a kid, but you learn most of the energies/body mechanics that it takes to easily help drive aggressiveness/mental awareness and with a strong development of muscle memory.

Most children didn’t grow up like I did with a lot of activity to do. T-Ball/Little League Baseball: as a child it teaches big time hand-eye coordination; from throwing the ball one can easily be taught how to throw a punch just from having good form while playing baseball. It’s the same with Little League Football, High School Wrestling and Basketballs; they all can get pretty physical.

A lot of the movements/muscle memories from childhood activities can cross right over/ in being a knowledgeable supplement of understanding for aggressiveness and mental awareness which can easily make him/her stand out from the others, in most cases; when it comes to almost anything physical in their later years as adult.

If you’re learning Wing Chun, then; what I’ve mention above should be stripped away from you, because there is nothing in this system that warrants that type of attitude, energies or body mechanics. But you learn how to have an understanding of some sort, mostly on consistent basis dealing with kicking, punching, takedowns, grappling, while growing up in your own backyard, at least I did. There was nothing that mentally/physically prepared me for Wing Chun as a child.

[GlennR]

When you said this:


Then I said:


I’m referring to this post here:

OK, read the post again and i tghink i know where you are coming from.

What youre saying is, in comparison to most athletic activities (particularly the ones you participate as a child), WC is a bit "abstract" and goes against what you have learnt as a child in respect to mechanics etc.

Yes?

[Ali. R]

What youre saying is, in comparison to most athletic activities (particularly the ones you participate as a child),

You're right.

And what you may learn as a child could easily take you through high school in which easily prepares you for collage, or just some street fights and who knows; maybe pro.

I started in the 6th grade and won my 8th grade Wrestling Championship, I was just as young as these guys when I started and my uncle was the high school wrestling coach as well.

http://youtu.be/iF4T3hWa2bY

[GlennR]

You're right.

And what you may learn as a child could easily take you through high school in which easily prepares you for collage, or just some street fights and who knows; maybe pro.

I started in the 6th grade and won my 8th grade Wrestling Championship, I was just as young as these guys when I started and my uncle was the high school wrestling coach as well.

http://youtu.be/iF4T3hWa2bY

So what youre saying is that all those "ingrained" movements from youth will hinder utilising WC naturally (in a sparring/fighting) situation..... therefore dont spar for a given period.

What periods of time are you thinking?

[Ali. R]

If you train seriously and learn more than just the forms, put truly understand and master their development. If you’re bright,talented and hungry ; and with a good teacher it could take up to two years, but a lot of people are lazy and want to be down by association.

Therefore I would recommend 3-5 years, something more (if you want to be good), it's really up to the student and his/her capabilities and their understanding of development.

[GlennR]

If you train seriously and learn more than just the forms, put truly understand and master their development. If you’re bright,talented and hungry ; and with a good teacher it could take up to two years, but a lot of people are lazy and want to be down by association.

Therefore I would recommend 3-5 years, something more (if you want to be good), it's really up to the student and his/her capabilities and their understanding of development.

Thanks.
I actually agree with introducing sparring to early to WC.... to a degree.

But... how often do we see the 3-5 y WC guy get owned in sparring?

[anerlich]

Your reply is like saying: I can’t train wing chun this week, because my karate gi is dirty.


WTF? I don't see how.


I’m sure it’s not on me

Opinions vary!


And I waited a whole day for this reply.

Someone needs to get himself a life.


‘Greco Roman Wrestling’ is a High School sport that won a UFC Championship (Brock Lesener/others) many, many times.

No sh!t, but WTF does that have to do with anything I said or your argument, whatever it has morphed into this half hour?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are spot on.

IMO BJJ in particular is a very interesting example. This art is absolutely changing at lightning speed and evolving due to competition and use of video/youtube for instruction and competition footage. Nobody knew what a berimbolo was 5 yrs ago - it took Rafa Mendes winning with it for it to become popular (fun to check out - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHikSZK5jc4).

It's funny you mention that because I recall speaking with a few old school BJJ guys, how they said that sport BJJ ( grappling only) would be an ever changing thing because the development will be going through the roof since they don't have to deal with strikes ( as the old school BJJ did since BJJ was oriented towards vale tudo).

[Frost]

is this the same Ali R who claimed to be running a golden gloves gym and have a 36 year coaching record but couldnt prove it and who psoted some of the worest pad work ever known to man? If so it explains a lot about how this thread is going

[anerlich]

It's funny you mention that because I recall speaking with a few old school BJJ guys, how they said that sport BJJ ( grappling only) would be an ever changing thing because the development will be going through the roof since they don't have to deal with strikes ( as the old school BJJ did since BJJ was oriented towards vale tudo).

Some truth to that, I guess, but then again one of my BJJ classmates retained his Australian MMA title belt by submitting his opponent with a gogoplata in the second round.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some truth to that, I guess, but then again one of my BJJ classmates retained his Australian MMA title belt by submitting his opponent with a gogoplata in the second round.

Good for him, surprise is something no one can plan for and that is really why innovation drives the submission game.
If you can bring something different to the table, you got an ace up your sleeve.

[Ali. R]

Why can’t you stay with your premise (not sure if you have one), you’re not running for election so why play politics?

You said:

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, in particular, is designed to take advantage of common natural reactions to the untrained person finding himself under threat in unfamiliar positions.

Then I said:

‘Greco Roman Wrestling’ is a High School sport that won a UFC Championship (Brock Lesnar/Mark Coleman/others) many, many times.
Come on,

Then you said:

WTF?No sh!t, but WTF does that have to do with anything I said or your argument, whatever it has morphed into this half hour?

Sounds like someone didn’t take their ‘Ritalin’ today, here’s a answer to your question. You’re making the charge that the things that children do or did, don’t help them develop a understanding naturally into good practitioners. And that’s a bald face lie.

If that’s not the case, for the third time; what did you mean by this?

Oh sure, I recognised the spinunder omoplata from Z guard the first time I saw it.

Referring to this post:

A lot of the movements/muscle memories from childhood activities can cross right over/ in being a knowledgeable supplement of understanding for aggressiveness and mental awareness which can easily make him/her stand out from the others, in most cases; when it comes to almost anything physical in their later years as an adult.

[Ali. R]

is this the same Ali R who claimed to be running a golden gloves gym and have a 36 year coaching record but couldnt prove it and who psoted some of the worest pad work ever known to man? If so it explains a lot about how this thread is going

How is this thread going? I haven’t violated anything or anyone. The only ones that feel that way are a hand full of people here. I get this all the time when I come here, it’s nothing new. Here’s the first one on this thread, I dont won't to fight, but just only stay with the premise (like always). I'm surprised I haven’t been banned yet. No offense to the moderators a bunch of good guys.


Sorry to jump into a thread, but I'm bored at work and just noticed this one was throbbing with activity!! Good or bad activity? Well...
And he was totally off subject, just as you are.

Just look at this thread very clearly and carefully; I haven’t attacked anyone that stayed with the premises or who didn’t try to slam me first.

Then, here you are going after my character. I’m a boxing coach and this subject is not about my life;). By the way, here is one of my fighters and I would love for you to help me understand what I need to do with my pad work friend http://youtu.be/OFvX8PmMBRM

[Wayfaring]

How is this thread going? I haven’t violated anything or anyone. The only ones that feel that way are a hand full of people here. I get this all the time when I come here, it’s nothing new. Here’s the first one on this thread, I dont won't to fight, but just only stay with the premise (like always). I'm surprised I haven’t been banned yet. No offense to the moderators a bunch of good guys.

It's all good Ali. Good to see you back on here posting. I remember I used to have to pop me up some popcorn listening to you and Phil go back and forth back in the day. The mods aren't doing much banning or censoring lately - and most of the discussions are pretty well contained. I still haven't found another forum that's very active where a lot of people from various WCK styles post.



Then, here you are going after my character. I’m a boxing coach and this subject is not about my life;). By the way, here is one of my fighters and I would love for you to help me understand what I need to do with my pad work friend http://youtu.be/OFvX8PmMBRM

Oh, pad work is pretty infinite in what you can do / develop. Those sequences look like speed development mostly. Your guy looks pretty balanced and all right there. With the lightweights I'm sure power development is real necessary - and thus perfect technique. Picking one or two punches in a sequence to work on thowing with max power is good. Also next footwork and angles are always good - they pay off the most in the ring. But no criticism at all. More WCK people should do pad work.

[Ali. R]

It's all good Ali. Good to see you back on here posting. I remember I used to have to pop me up some popcorn listening to you and Phil go back and forth back in the day. The mods aren't doing much banning or censoring lately - and most of the discussions are pretty well contained. I still haven't found another forum that's very active where a lot of people from various WCK styles post.

Oh, pad work is pretty infinite in what you can do / develop. Those sequences look like speed development mostly. Your guy looks pretty balanced and all right there. With the lightweights I'm sure power development is real necessary - and thus perfect technique. Picking one or two punches in a sequence to work on thowing with max power is good. Also next footwork and angles are always good - they pay off the most in the ring. But no criticism at all. More WCK people should do pad work.

Hi man, it’s nice to talk with you again. Phil and I made friends a long time ago; that’s real old news. We’ve written to each other sometimes and talk about life and health, Phil’s a nice guy when you get to know him. Life is to short, we must move on and live in peace, because I’m getting old and just don’t like or want that type of energy in my life.

And thanks a lot for the kind word,

[anerlich]

You’re making the charge that the things that children do or did, don’t help them develop a understanding naturally into good practitioners. And that’s a bald face lie.

That was the charge you made about Wing Chun, how your childhood experiences didn't help you with it at all. Bald face [sic] lie? If you say so.

What you said I said is actually an opinion, so calling it a lie is inappropriate.


If that’s not the case, for the third time; what did you mean by this?

Obviously it was a flippant remark, perhaps in response to an overly lecturing tone, but led into my assertion that the basic things children or the untrained do or did will not take you through to advanced levels of grappling, disputing your earlier point that as a child you see and feel all the basic energies you need to succeed later on. I didn't say that about pugilism, Wing Chun or anything else, only about grappling, indeed only about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

I'm not an expert on developmental learning in early childhood, and, obviously, neither are you, so we're both theorising from bases of limited knowledge.

Is that OK, or should I try a fourth time, perhaps using words of one syllable? Actually, no. I've made my point, which others have responded to positively.


Sounds like someone didn’t take their ‘Ritalin’ today

I wouldn't consider humour as a career if I were you.

[Ali. R]

Then you really had nothing to say; because you said nothing.


I'm not an expert on developmental learning in early childhood, and, obviously, neither are you, so we're both theorising from bases of limited knowledge.

See right there, you really don’t know me! I’ve been a physical education teacher for 7 years for the City ‘Oak Park, Detroit and Romulus School's in the State of Michigan, I know what I’m talking about, unlike you, I have a degree in child development and electronics, and I had four children of my own in which they we’re my students at that time.

I’m sure every room you walk into, this sound comes from nowhere; like your own personal theme song.
http://youtu.be/CWFiZ7q5UmM

When your emotions are heightening with an unknown reason of anger, it’s really hard to debate a lie. Because; if, what brought you to this debate is based on hatred; your heart will not be into it -or- will the premise.

Could someone please help me figure out what he’s saying pertaining to my post or premise, he said some people here really understand the connection?

[Wayfaring]

Could someone please help me figure out what he’s saying pertaining to my post or premise, he said some people here really understand the connection?

I think Andrew was just saying that as it pertains to BJJ and ground skills that many of the fundamentals and movements are not intuitive at all.

If you are untrained in specifics it is likely you will move the wrong way just going off of athletic movements. Good movement chains in BJJ are like a chess game - each move is designed to elicit a movement which leads to the next move in the sequence which leads to checkmate.

[Happy Tiger]

Wing Chun is devastating within it's own idiom. This is no insult. Just as fisticuffs(bare knuckle, fair upright,modern boxing) is a subset of Pankraton, VT is invaluable in it's own right but is part of a larger picture. There is a beginning and end to it's sphere as it stands now.. If it thinks it's the living end, no good. If it works with other methods, invaluable

[Vajramusti]

Wing Chun is devastating within it's own idiom. This is no insult. Just as fisticuffs is a subset of Pankraton, VT is invaluable in it's own right but is part of a larger picture. There is a beginning and end to it's sphere as it stands now.. If it thinks it's the living end, no good. If it works with other methods, invaluable
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Your opinion and every one has one.

joy chaudhuri

[Ali. R]

I think Andrew was just saying that as it pertains to BJJ and ground skills that many of the fundamentals and movements are not intuitive at all.

If he’s saying that, then he’s agreeing with my premise as far as “mental development” first; within the system you train, because looking at something and thinking that you have it all figured out is a fool’s way to go. I’m talking about development and not intuition.

[Happy Tiger]

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Your opinion and every one has one.

joy chaudhuri
Like something else every one has one of.. :)
You're right

[Happy Tiger]

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Your opinion and every one has one.

joy chaudhuri
Look at muay thai...devastating...a complete martial art. But willing to share stage and integrate with other foreign arts. It is a very common striking art used in MMA, combined with whatever. Maybe if VT learned to play well with others a bit more,it would advance the art in un for seen ways

[GlennR]

Look at muay thai...devastating...a complete martial art. But willing to share stage and integrate with other foreign arts. It is a very common striking art used in MMA, combined with whatever. Maybe if VT learned to play well with others a bit more,it would advance the art in un for seen ways

Muay Thai hasnt integrated, its MMA that has.
MT is pretty much the striking style for most MMA guys...... not the other way round

[imperialtaichi]

Wing Chun is devastating within it's own idiom. This is no insult. Just as fisticuffs(bare knuckle, fair upright,modern boxing) is a subset of Pankraton, VT is invaluable in it's own right but is part of a larger picture. There is a beginning and end to it's sphere as it stands now.. If it thinks it's the living end, no good. If it works with other methods, invaluable

Recently I've been working with a trainer who trains San-Da and Kickboxing fighters. His kicks are really really awesome. Strong as trucks and unpredictable as snakes. I've been teaching him KL22 methods to get out of ropes and corners, and he's been teaching me his kicking methods.

Win-win for both of us.

And we both like to play with knives ;)

[Vajramusti]

Look at muay thai...devastating...a complete martial art. But willing to share stage and integrate with other foreign arts. It is a very common striking art used in MMA, combined with whatever. Maybe if VT learned to play well with others a bit more,it would advance the art in un for seen ways
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Thx you are welcome to your opinion. I analyses and when opportunity arises use wing chun to deal with other arts. Wing chun remains my game and the game keeps developing..

joy chaudhuri