Slu Lin tau ko kuit from red boat

[Hendrik]

於此公開紅船正旦易金所傳授之詠春拳小練頭歌訣，
以供諸詠春拳同宗與中國武術學者參研發楊詠春拳。
涂福如敬上於美國加卅矽谷

「傳承」

易金授於曹順。
曹順傳仔曹德勝。
曹德勝嫡傳曹全與同房太公曹安。
曹安首授曹雄才。
曹雄才授涂福如於馬來西亞梹城。

「練習須知」

眼要對手。手要對心。
手從心發。一絲不苟。
一伸一縮。柔中帶剛。
剛中而柔。 則是。靜如平波。動如翻江。
若不明攻守之道。皆失過偏弊耳。

「小練頭歌訣 」
甲

聚意會神平肩檔。兩手前起分陰陽
左腿跘出有善惡。右跟屈勁緊反藏
會合丹田督脈降。手臂鞭出橫力勁
神寄指爪䄂底旁。旋迥自然順脈氣
掌背向外神意足。翻掌抽纏對心防
單橫相撐合氣運。相抱沉身力橫分
前虛急用擒伏法。下叉飛雙插翼忙
合實雙掌穿心貫。下沉關元背攻上
一任自然脈安祥。企掌屈肘單朝陽
上下飛花勁脈��。呑吐如虹發力罡
下結關元參佛手。一任自然氣脈長。

「斯是上乘法。通關開竅有奇功。」

今注：可參考峨嵋十二庒歌訣與福䢖白鶴拳古文以解此小練頭歌訣

[Hendrik]

CFT,

Please help to translate this if possible. Your effort will be appreciated by the WCK practitioners of the west. It is not easy or might not be even able to translate some parts because it is quoting the other ancient writing. It might take some times to translate.

Thanks and appreciate !

This is what it is 1850. Time to let the world sees it. Hope this seed grow in the west.

Best regards
Hendrik

[Shadow_warrior8]

thank you senior for this

:)

[CFT]

I will try Hendrik. I take it that you are 涂福如?

Just a quick description of the sections to whet the appetite:

1. The transmisson/family tree from Yik kam through the Cho family
2. Training essentials
3. The Siu Lin Tau song/kuit/lyrics

[CFT]

於此公開紅船正旦易金所傳授之詠春拳小練頭歌訣，
以供諸詠春拳同宗與中國武術學者參研發楊詠春拳。
涂福如敬上於美國加卅矽谷
Here is openly presented the Wing Chun Siu Lin Tau lyrics (ko kuit) transmitted by the Red Boat cheng dan (lead male 'as female'*) actor Yik kam
For all Wing Chun clan members and Chinese Martial Arts scholars to research and develop Wing Chun
Sincerely, To Fook Yu (Hendrik Santos)
Silicon Valley, California, USA


「傳承」
Heritage

易金授於曹順。
曹順傳仔曹德勝。
曹德勝嫡傳曹全與同房太公曹安。
曹安首授曹雄才。
曹雄才授涂福如於馬來西亞梹城。
Yik Kam taught Cho Son
Cho Son taught his son Cho Dak Sing
Cho Dak Sing taught his son Cho Chuen and same family branch Cho On
Cho On first taught Cho Hung Choi
Cho Hung Choi taught To Fook Yu (Hendrik Santos) in Penang, Malaysia

--------
* Anyone wondering about men playing women on stage - this happened in Western theatre too. See 'Shakespeare in Love' for an example.

[Hendrik]

I will try Hendrik. I take it that you are 涂福如?

Just a quick description of the sections to whet the appetite:

1. The transmisson/family tree from Yik kam through the Cho family
2. Training essentials
3. The Siu Lin Tau song/kuit/lyrics

Thanks and appreciate!

Yes. I am.

The lyrics is what one follows In details when One is practicing slt.

[CFT]

Thanks Hendrik. Need your help on the last sentence.

「練習須知」
Training notes

眼要對手。手要對心。
手從心發。一絲不苟。
一伸一縮。柔中帶剛。
剛中而柔。 則是。靜如平波。動如翻江。
若不明攻守之道。皆失過偏弊耳。
Eyes follow hand, hand follows heart.
Hand comes from the heart, without a thread of carelessness.
One extends, one retracts.
Softness carries hardness within. Hardness has softness within.
This is silence like the gentle waves, motion like the raging river.
If you don't understand the method of attack and defence, then you are extremely mistaken.

[CFT]

Hendrik, I can't see 3 characters:

神寄指爪?底旁。旋迥自然順脈氣
單橫相?合氣運。相抱沉身力橫分
上下飛花勁脈?。呑吐如虹發力罡

[Hendrik]

Thanks Hendrik. Need your help on the last sentence.

「練習須知」
Training notes

眼要對手。手要對心。
手從心發。一絲不苟。
一伸一縮。柔中帶剛。
剛中而柔。 則是。靜如平波。動如翻江。
若不明攻守之道。皆失過偏弊耳。
Eyes follow hand, hand follows heart.
Hand comes from the heart, without a thread of carelessness.
One extends, one retracts.
Softness carries hardness within. Hardness has softness within.
This is silence like the gentle waves, motion like the raging river.
If you don't understand the method of attack and defence, then mistaken and deaf (??)

Just Mistaken of going extreme. No deaf needed.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, I can't see 3 characters:

神寄指爪?底旁。旋迥自然順脈氣
單橫相?合氣運。相抱沉身力橫分
上下飛花勁脈?。呑吐如虹發力罡


As the following.

爪䄂。相𣛟。脈𣈱。

[CFT]

爪䄂。相��。脈��。I still can't see it. Don't know what encoding you are using. Just use pinyin and I'll see if I can guess it.

I've found the lyrics on your youtube video. I'll have a look at those and also your description of each line. I think it would be more useful to others if I try to translate your explanations rather than the literal translation of the ko kuit. I'll have a look at it at some point.

[Hendrik]

I still can't see it. Don't know what encoding you are using. Just use pinyin and I'll see if I can guess it.

Ok

It is sleeve, support, smooth. In the sequence of your question above.

Mandarin is. Siu, Cherng, Chaang. Sleeve, support, smooth.

[CFT]

Hope you can see this Hendrik: 袖 持 暢
Is that right?

[Hendrik]

Hope you can see this Hendrik: 袖 持 暢
Is that right?



The second is off.

扌掌。 support can you see ?


Others are correct. Thanks.

[CFT]

I see. I wondered if it was that. 撐

[Hendrik]

I see. I wondered if it was that. 撐

Yes。you are correct。My opps. I have made the correction on the main writing above.

[Hendrik]

The following are my brief introduction on tcma and yik kam teaching to help those who like to understand the ancient.


1.中国武術和气功関系總之如下.

A, 中国傳统有气功的武功一般有三个層次.

1, 固本功夫練: 意靜,形正, 气順. 做到意形气相合為一
2, 應用功夫練 : 換勁,气勢, 心神. 所謂: 气連心意隨時用, 打破身式無遮攔
3, 養生功夫練 : 变化精神气貭. 所謂:進人无為而无不為.

B. 但是練習气功, 不等於練習換勁, 或練習气勢. 不得換勁气勢真傳則不是武功. 有武功未必有气功.

C. 气功為两件事,一為養气,一為使气自然通行. 內气就會壯大.

D. 气功3个极其重要的关键点:

1, 心息则神安，神安则气足，气足则血旺，血气流畅 = 养气
2, 血气本来可以自然流通，却不可作意去使它流通。当排除其阻碍物，使得天然发展。= 任运
3, 身松，心静, 呼吸順自然

E. 气聚丹田是為了身体能量可以蓄存在人体中樞養壯而不散耗.
精神,肉体,与气是三樣一体. 耗其中一樣其它就散.所以養气是很重要的.
會合真氣於丹田,引導氣脈週轉為安神入靜之功。非一般的 : 鼓氣小腹,用力強求,求氣團硬氣功類之事。




2.我把易金1850詠春拳小練頭拳訣分成五部架構的原因是：
中國文化自1850變化太多。技術層面涉及太廣。不是現代人有足夠常識和邏輯去了解。現在標出五部架構以便 習者可以的見全貌。

五部架構為：身。心。呼吸。勁勢。氣脈。
雖說分為五部。但是五部同時並存。互相影響。每一動皆五部倶全。

身部在說明：身體的運作。比如。鬆身。關節。六合。
心部在說明：心，念，意，神，覺知。的不同。
呼吸部在說明： 腹部呼吸増加呼吸量。順腹部呼吸的養氣。和逆腹部呼吸的減少體內淤血。
勁勢部在說明：各種不同的勁力與勢法。
氣脈部在說明：養真氣。十二正經。奇經八脈。和動作的關係。



3.詠春易金小練頭歌訣說「斯是上乘法。開關通竅有奇功」。
然而。以往。這套拳並非初習武者可學。

為方便今日習者。
我除分訣成：身體。心神。呼吸。勁勢。氣脈。五部之外。
另借今日名門動功練習以為注釋其中要點。打好技撃和養生之五部基礎。以便可掌握拳中全面機要。

動功之名列如下：峨嵋十二庒天字庒蛇行蛹動通背勁等。馬禮堂行功之濟陰歩。乾坤歩。熊行步。意拳神龜出水。 八段锦背後七顛。李鳳山平摔功。峨嵋虎歩功。


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI0i5eulDUc&context=C3ca12a3ADOEgsToPDskLzY4LE6n2ZVqi0ewAbLby2

4.詠春拳勢法淺說

直取子午勢，
利我居主位，

是說直奪中線中門內。截其陰陽雙魚之中破其內勁變化之機。佔據住中門內逼其在外門來搶救。我以逸代勞。致人 而不致於人。他需長途反攻而我居主位只需移分寸行生勊制化之。縦他內功深厚以勢破之。

勿当冲马劲,
横锁刁牛蹩,
封闭借来法,

是說用其一鼔作氣之攻勢橫欄其主力。表面上避讓實借其人之力封其人之路。不花一力鎖之以靠近直 到中門內。

鶴頂六弓勁，
蛇纏困節行，
用中本無形。

是說用身上六弓之勁分合化走驚彈。蛇行蛹動之功粘貼纒挷困。造其勢不執於形。故曰。來留去送。以靜制動。脫 手直冲。剛柔並用。



5.六弓與六方向合力

1. 六弓 =發動器=腕。肘。肩。胯。膝。踝。
六方向合力 = 組合力類型(成效).

2. 六方向合力有靜態或動態.

舉例來說,
六方向合力靜態 = 球面形.
六方向合力動態 =

一個六方向合力發勁擊打動作一般涉及: 自由落體運動，摩擦，力矩，角加速度，槓桿.行動反應. 組合
(free fall, friction, torque, angular acceleration, lever principle, action reaction) combination.

一般的日字衝拳通常擁有四方向合力 (前,後,上,下) (vector of x,-x,y,-y) .
如果僅僅是只用手腕，肘,肩發出. 那麼它只有三力 = 三弓.
如果用全 腕，肘,肩.胯,膝,踝發出.那麼它有六力 = 六弓.

3. 發出動態方向合力越多越難接. 類似發出旋轉球. 六方向合力比四方向合力難破.
框架結構靜態方向合力越多越穩定. 類似球面形.

4. 相同的手法. 由於控制不同會有不同方向合力組合.
比如每一詠春糸二字鉗陽馬就不同。

六方向合力是用來指出勁力自然現象。方便簡單棎討分析的語言。

[LoneTiger108]

I will try Hendrik. I take it that you are 涂福如?

Just a quick description of the sections to whet the appetite:

1. The transmisson/family tree from Yik kam through the Cho family
2. Training essentials
3. The Siu Lin Tau song/kuit/lyrics

I have heard about Yik Kam being the female lead before but the training in Opera is not to be confused with the Wing Chun system we see today. The Cho Family were Martial Artists too, not performers as far as I know, studying more than Wing Chun and some would say they're influences are more Shaolin based, not much to do with Emei Mountain.

It is a very interesting read and I am sure it will make more sense with your translations as I am far too amateur in my Chinese :o

[CFT]

Spencer, I am amateur too. I am British Born Chinese so the PRC probably don't even class me as Chinese since I don't speak Putonghua. I did have the benefit of weekend language classes for ... oooh ... 15yrs so I did pick something up. But CMA and TCM are a whole different beast!

This will need a heck of a lot of polishing:

「小練頭歌訣 」
Siu Lin Tau lyrics

甲
A

聚意會神平肩檔。兩手前起分陰陽
Gather the yi (intention), join with the shen (spirit), even shoulder stance.
Raise the hands in front, split into yin and yang.

左腿跘出有善惡。右跟屈勁緊反藏
Left leg steps out has good or evil. Right leg crouches power (ging) is tightly stored.

會合丹田督脈降。手臂鞭出橫力勁
Join the dantien, the Du channel descends. Right arm whips out with horizontal power.

神寄指爪袖底旁。旋迥自然順脈氣
Miraculous claws under sleeve side. Naturally circling follow the channels (mak) and breath (qi).

掌背向外神意足。翻掌抽纏對心防
Back of hand faces out, spirit and intention are complete. Flip palm, grasp and twist towards chest

單橫相撐合氣運。相抱沉身力橫分
Single horizontal mutual support harmonized breath transport. Double hold, sink body, body power divides horizontally.

前虛急用擒伏法。下叉飛雙插翼忙
Frontal feint emergency use, capturing (kam) and subduing (fuk) methods. Lower split double wing flight pressed (lower attack makes escape difficult?)

合實雙掌穿心貫。下沉關元背攻上
Double palms thrust through the heart. Sink the guanyuan* attack upwards.

* Meaning Guan, storage; yuan, primordial Qi. The point is a storage place for the primordial Qi of the body. Location 3 cun below the umbilicus.

一任自然脈安祥。企掌屈肘單朝陽
Rely on nature, the channels are composed. Project palm, crook elbow, single facing sun (chaoyang?)

上下飛花勁脈暢。呑吐如虹發力罡
Upper lower flying flowers, power (ging) channels unimpeded. Swallow spit like the rainbow, power projection polestar.

下結關元參佛手。一任自然氣脈長。
Lower close guanyuan, Buddha hand. Rely on nature, the channels grow.

「斯是上乘法。通關開竅有奇功。」
This is an advanced method. A unique practice to clear barriers and start enlightenment.

今注：可參考峨嵋十二庒歌訣與福䢖白鶴拳古文以解此小練頭歌訣
Annotation: Try researching the Emei 12 zhuang kuit and the Fujian White Crane historical records to extract meaning from the Siu Lin Tau lyrics/kuit.

[Hendrik]

CTF,

Thanks and appreciate for your help !


This is good enough for first draft. As you know the classical Chinese always refer to this to that old text.... So one can improve many times. If I am going to translate it most people will be lost on what I am talking about. Not to mention my broken English.

The bottom line is we know this kuit exist for real and we know we have it so we can keep investigate it depend on one's interest.

Thanks again.


Ps

A better meaning translation for
"Miraculous claws under sleeve side. "
Is
Pay attention to the finger, claws, and the under sleeve side.

This stanza is Souce from emei 12 zhuang writing 神寄掌心䄂㡳旁. with description on different finger, palm technics ...ect. Which is embeded within the slt motion. I leave it for you all who is interested to look into further.

[LoneTiger108]

Looking at your translation Chee this piece, I think, is a Wing Chun treasure :)

Thanks for sharing Hendrik

[Hendrik]

Looking at your translation Chee this piece, I think, is a Wing Chun treasure :)

Thanks for sharing Hendrik




Slt internal traning process that is what it is when one decode it.

Thanks the cho who preserve it for generations.

[fan]

Yik Kam taught Cho Son
Cho Son taught his son Cho Dak Sing
Cho Dak Sing taught his son Cho Chuen and same family branch Cho On
Cho On first taught Cho Hung Choi
Cho Hung Choi taught To Fook Yu (Hendrik Santos) in Penang, Malaysia



Hendrik, what became of the Cho Family since you left for the US? From accounts I read, the Cho Family no longer teaches their family art in Penang nor is there a kwoon to carry on the Cho Family teachings.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, what became of the Cho Family since you left for the US? From accounts I read, the Cho Family no longer teaches their family art in Penang nor is there a kwoon to carry on the Cho Family teachings.


I am not clear after I left and my sifu passed away.



However, GM Cheong Wai Po is still teaching his version of art today in my understanding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d15nTAnii_U&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLFB8836050C31A482

[Jim Roselando]

Nice job guys!

Here are some popular Cho family youtube clips to go with the Yik Kam thread!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqHE5A4LC80&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCTuRE4zC0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH5V5wjFAcI&feature=related

[Hendrik]

there are different version of Cho Gar art. here another one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMVsWwjcOAQ

[CFT]

I think that people should now understand why Hendrik feels so strongly about the link between Cho Gar WCK and Emei 12 zhaung& Fujian WC. The kuit is very particular in its use of language. It is not just generic CMA or even generic WCK kuit.

[LoneTiger108]

Hendrik, what became of the Cho Family since you left for the US? From accounts I read, the Cho Family no longer teaches their family art in Penang nor is there a kwoon to carry on the Cho Family teachings.

I didn't see anyone mention Sifu Ku Choi Wah who has reprenentatives in Malaysia and Singapore
http://banchungchogawingchun.com/

[LoneTiger108]

I think that people should now understand why Hendrik feels so strongly about the link between Cho Gar WCK and Emei 12 zhaung& Fujian WC. The kuit is very particular in its use of language. It is not just generic CMA or even generic WCK kuit.

To be honest, I don't think many people will care either way about what Hendrik is attempting to present because very few people have really looked into the language of our art.

I agree that the specific lines he is sharing are not generic kuen kuit as we are familiar with, as they are instructions not advice lines. But they are still quite common to traditional Chinese Martial Arts, and dare I say some Taichi influence is definitely present in the opening and expressions

聚意會神平肩檔。兩手前起分陰陽
Gather the yi (intention), join with the shen (spirit), even shoulder stance.
Raise the hands in front, split into yin and yang.

左腿跘出有善惡。右跟屈勁緊反藏
Left leg steps out has good or evil. Right leg crouches power (ging) is tightly stored.

This for example is classical Taichi Hoisik from my understanding and experience. Check the similarity to this opening set http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrqrWaUS3sg

Wing Chun from Ip Man does not do this. Wing Chun prior to Ip Man does not do this. So at some point did we change from stepping out with the left leg to opening the toes into kim yeung ma, or as I practise heel to toe to kim yeung ma (as in traditional southern arts)??

Still a treasure in all respects, but we shouldn't get carried away with fantasy ideals that may have had little to no influence on modern Wing Chun for very good reasons ;)

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1161777

This for example is classical Taichi Hoisik from my understanding and experience. Check the similarity to this opening set http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrqrWaUS3sg

((similarity does not mean the same.I do NOT seea taiji influence))

Wing Chun from Ip Man does not do this. Wing Chun prior to Ip Man does not do this. So at some point did we change from stepping out with the left leg to opening the toes into kim yeung ma, or as I practise heel to toe to kim yeung ma (as in traditional southern arts)??

(Ip Man;s roots are different from Cho's, methinks)


joy

[LoneTiger108]

similarity does not mean the same.I do NOT see a taiji influence

Are you talking of your own Wing Chun training here Joy, or referring to the cip I posted?

Yiou will find that the opening sequence in the clip is exactly what Hendriks' first 2 lines represent.


Ip Man;s roots are different from Cho's, methinks

Of course I am aware of this, BUT my own Sigungs contact with the Cho Family and other lineages still strongly suggest a Shaolin/Traditional Southern flavour in the sets that Ip Man was aware of (and changed)

The question is, is it still relevant to Wing Chun today? Personally I think it is.

[Hendrik]

To be honest, I don't think many people will care either way about what Hendrik is attempting to present because very few people have really looked into the language of our art.

I agree that the specific lines he is sharing are not generic kuen kuit as we are familiar with, as they are instructions not advice lines. But they are still quite common to traditional Chinese Martial Arts, and dare I say some Taichi influence is definitely present in the opening and expressions

聚意會神平肩檔。兩手前起分陰陽
Gather the yi (intention), join with the shen (spirit), even shoulder stance.
Raise the hands in front, split into yin and yang.

左腿跘出有善惡。右跟屈勁緊反藏
Left leg steps out has good or evil. Right leg crouches power (ging) is tightly stored.

This for example is classical Taichi Hoisik from my understanding and experience. Check the similarity to this opening set http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrqrWaUS3sg

Wing Chun from Ip Man does not do this. Wing Chun prior to Ip Man does not do this. So at some point did we change from stepping out with the left leg to opening the toes into kim yeung ma, or as I practise heel to toe to kim yeung ma (as in traditional southern arts)??

Still a treasure in all respects, but we shouldn't get carried away with fantasy ideals that may have had little to no influence on modern Wing Chun for very good reasons ;)

For the fun of it.


Is it quite common to tcma, is it taiji influence?



1. Let's take a look at the first two phrase you quote above,

----------
聚意會神平肩檔。兩手前起分陰陽
Gather the yi (intention), join with the shen (spirit), even shoulder stance.
Raise the hands in front, split into yin and yang.

------------




Let see what happen .

The following is the first two phrases from emei 12 zhuang.

----------
氣平正立平肩襠。兩掌前起半陰陽。

Breathing calmly , stand proper, even shoulder stance.
Raise the palms in front, half yin and yang.

-----------

So, take a look at the meaning, the position or sequence, the writing style.
See for yourself how close are they from copying?
Not to mention , There are many phrases within this yik kam slt kuit is like that.




2. Also, sorry, your YouTube taiji hoisik does not implement The kuit above.
Why? Because there is a uniqueness in both the emei and slt the taiji YouTube doesn't follow.
And that is the kam Yong or clamping the yang. So it is this type of details one want to know.

The secret of kam yong is in fact hidden in the first phrase . Knowing the first phrase knowing kam Yong naturally. Also take a look at the yik kam kuit, see how many naturally it keeps remind?


3. The 跘 is more precise translate to trip instead to step out. It is open or moving the left leg side way like tripping some one when throwing him. Many of us open yjkym the way, trip left trip right.

So, again it is not what as seen in the taiji YouTube.





4. In addition , can it be accident that some one some how accidentally email the 800 years old top secret in emei mountain to the red boat for yik kam in 1850 to copy?

Ask those emei people, they will tell you before 1950 where dr. Chow release it to public, these writing can only be accessed by one Buddhist monk per generation for past 800 years since 1200. In song dynasty. This is much older than taiji of Ming dynasty.


But, hold on, remember the snake and crane story of wing Chun comes from the west side of kwantong or canton and Miu soon fuse emei snake and white crane?



5.Not to mention from the above kuit all those who train in internal art knows in order
To do 集意會神 Gather the yi (intention), join with the shen (spirit) Need to do 氣平正立 breathing clamly stand proper, And the key is the 平肩襠Or equal shoulder stance.


6.See, the key in a kuit is about both the big picture , the details, and the uniqueness.
Only with that one can turn on the engine to see what the engine is. One needs to get deep into every details because it is a process of implementation a certain thing.
There are no accident, but an engineering process in details.

In these four phrases above, many detials in the 5 layers are describe explicit and implicitly.
I brought up five layers here because One needs to handle all the five layers to handle the process.

[LoneTiger108]

Also, sorry, your YouTube taiji hoisik does not implement The kuit above.
Why? Because there is a uniqueness in both the emei and slt the taiji YouTube doesn't follow.
And that is the kam Yong or clamping the yang. So it is this type of details one want to know.

Ok but I was talking about the opening set only, as I can't see any reference to kim yeung in those first two lines (?) The movements they suggest are exactly as in the clip I posted.


The secret of kam yong is in fact hidden in the first phrase . Knowing the first phrase knowing kam Yong naturally. Also take a look at the yik kam kuit, see how many naturally it keeps remind?

Yes I understand what you are saying, but this is basic Ip Man Wing Chun imo and something I was taught using another term, not 'kam yong'.

Have you heard the term Lap Lim 立念 ?


One needs to get deep into every details because it is a process of implementation a certain thing.

So if all the effort was put into the Yik Kam kuit you are presenting here, there will be these 'details' in further texts surely? And if they're not and details are left to the imagination or verbal instruction only then there would be no point in attempting to understand the kuit you have presented here Hendrik!

of course, I also understand that every Sifu is different and will release what they want when the want, as my own Sifu does to this day...

[Hendrik]

Ok but I was talking about the opening set only, as I can't see any reference to kim yeung in those first two lines (?) The movements they suggest are exactly as in the clip I posted.____


In fact, by evidence of the YouTube.

the taiji guy is standing in an opposite way of kam Yong in the very begining.
Once that happen the continous move is totally different.

Not to mention, the Chen tai ji set art is a moving based and the slt is a standing based art.

One needs to get into this deep of details to know what is what when it comes to internal art and kuen kuit.

Kam Yong, what is it, why is it, is cover in detail in both the slt and emei kuit above 。kam Yong is needed to have a even, balance, calmly breath, gather intention...ect state. That is the key of even or equal shoulder stance. The natural way of even shoulder stance.

While the taiji YouTube guys is doing the opposite due to his requirement of his art. Nothing wrong but different. However, if one import that into slt, that is trouble and will cause unstable that s certain.


So, these are very distinct different type of Kung fu cultivation.

One doesn't see the kam Yong in the first two lines because one needs to know this is a "high level programming language" one needs to know the language to know the machine code made up the language. In fact the "even" in the first line is calling for kam Yong machine code.






Yes I understand what you are saying, but this is basic Ip Man Wing Chun imo and something I was taught using another term, not 'kam yong'.----------


Doesn't matter what term is used. Called it Alqua , water, Sui, air......they are the same thing if they are the same thing.







Have you heard the term Lap Lim 立念 ?------

This is a modern made term .



So if all the effort was put into the Yik Kam kuit you are presenting here, there will be these 'details' in further texts surely? And if they're not and details are left to the imagination or verbal instruction only then there would be no point in attempting to understand the kuit you have presented here Hendrik!---------


A kuit like this yik kam kuit is a description of the art .

Similar to if one read control system equation, the system equation tells what it is, if one knows differential equation or laplace transform or fourier transform.
They are well and precise describe if one has those math back ground.


Emei 12 zhuang and fujian white crane writing are analogy to the laplace transform math for yik kam slt kuen kuit. One needs those to read .



So, to those of us who know control system engineering, this slt kuit can be analogy as a system equation model which is model in differential equation. The emei 12 zhuang and white crane are the differential equation and inertial condition. The system characteristic is obvious if one knows the math and inertial condition. However, if one doesn't have the back ground, then it is trouble to blind guess.

Also, for those of us who knows programming, this kuit is a high level level language. Thus, it is a big effort to translate into machine code. Also, one needs to know the high level language to read the code. Is it a forth, an c, a fortran , a basic....ect.

Emei 12 zhuang is like a fortran and taiji is a COBOL. Ect....

The issue is most people doesn't have the language training and using thier imagination trying to read code.








of course, I also understand that every Sifu is different and will release what they want when the want, as my own Sifu does to this day..-----------


That is not true for ancient tcma writing as in emei 12 zhuang, it is precise and concise if one know it. Otherwise they cannot implement the kungfu. It is a technology transfer not a story writing.

As the yik kam kuit above, it is the soul of WCK which yik kam and cho family inner circle kept. So, it is go by book. Not up for imagination or selective presentation. The bottom line is it is an implementation process. It is a standard reference .

[Hendrik]

One can do a doctor degree with this kuit research in graduate school in the Department of PE , asia study, ...ect.

And I expect that because only with those type of study and reveal to the public.

WCK will be preserve and evolve healthy .
It is about every WCner. It is a new era based on technology.


If. One get this piece of kuit, snake and crane lineage 1870 wiring, koolo Gm Fung Chun art, one can have a first order view on how the system look. Because these cover the 1850 to early 1900.


I will keep my mouth shut after this post, just don't want to ruin a good movie for you.


Those who practice slt will know what the kuit refer to to an extend . The key is aware , don't think.

[fan]

Hendrik, good stuff you have being posting here recently. Any thoughts of publishing a book on Yik Kam Wing Chun and perhaps returning to Penang to find out what happened to the Cho Family? Is the Cho family art still extant in mainland China?

PS: In the clip of Sifu Cheong Wai Poe doing SLT, a youtube commentator remarked that his SLT looks like the Futsan version of SLT. Any thoughts on this?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, good stuff you have being posting here recently. Any thoughts of publishing a book on Yik Kam Wing Chun and perhaps returning to Penang to find out what happened to the Cho Family? Is the Cho family art still extant in mainland China?

PS: In the clip of Sifu Cheong Wai Poe doing SLT, a youtube commentator remarked that his SLT looks like the Futsan version of SLT. Any thoughts on this?



1. No plan to publish a book . These stuffs are not belongs to me but all wcners.
My mission is to release them in time to the west. What I know is in the net for free. So everyone can have accessed.

Actually, what you see here, sifu Robert Chu and Rene have seen them and much more, more then 10 years ago. We know what it is. It is nothing new.

Sifu Jim Rosalendo is researching it and published articles.

2. Cho family is healthy in Asia and China in my understanding.


3. No comment on different lineages of Cho family art since I am not Yik Kam.


4. With these ancient kuit, hope that wcner realize. Slt is more then posture. And one needs to make it alive in the ancient standard. Slt means details, detials, details, the devil is within the details in the 5 layers.

[Vajramusti]

Are you talking of your own Wing Chun training here Joy, or referring to the cip I posted?

Yiou will find that the opening sequence in the clip is exactly what Hendriks' first 2 lines represent.

((I am not superimposing what I do. You are interpreting your clip on your own way.There is no taiji
stance or engine in Cho family wing chun as far as I can tell))joy



Of course I am aware of this, BUT my own Sigungs contact with the Cho Family and other lineages still strongly suggest a Shaolin/Traditional Southern flavour in the sets that Ip Man was aware of (and changed)

(It's fashionable to claim shaolin. You are not specific enough in your comment on Ip Man))joy

The question is, is it still relevant to Wing Chun today? Personally I think it is.

(What question??"" joy

[Hendrik]

Those who is serious to get into the ancient WCK , i suggest to first understand these brief intro.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1161630&postcount=17

[Mutant]

If. One get this piece of kuit, snake and crane lineage 1870 wiring, koolo Gm Fung Chun art, one can have a first order view on how the system look. Because these cover the 1850 to early 1900.

Fascinating material, Hendrik, thank you so much for sharing with the WC community.

In the above suggestion, where can one find more information on the "snake and crane lineage 1870 wiring"? Is that a specific juncture in development where Leung Jan developed or integrated something? Is that referring to Leung Jan's creation of the 3 forms with Wong Wah Bo?


聚意會神平肩檔。兩手前起分陰陽
Gather the yi (intention), join with the shen (spirit), even shoulder stance.
Raise the hands in front, split into yin and yang.

Also, in regards to the comparison to the Chen Taichi system, that form seems distinctly different than the description in the kuit you've posted. In the Taichi form, first thing there is a big step out initially with shoulders becoming tilted uneven level during this transition... and then once set the practitioner raises the arms afterwards, and while the hands are slightly different level/heights in this transition, theyre not what most would describe as yin and yang at that point.


左腿跘出有善惡。右跟屈勁緊反藏
Left leg steps out has good or evil. Right leg crouches power (ging) is tightly stored.

Is the above referring to the to the alternating toes/heels in and out to open into the stance, or is there an alternate opening transition? In Pin Sun there is a 'darting horse' stance transition that might fit that description, as well as the side-body turning shift. Interesting.

Thanks. Very interesting discussion.
Chris

[Hendrik]

In the above suggestion, where can one find more information on the "snake and crane lineage 1870 wiring"?

Is that a specific juncture in development where Leung Jan developed or integrated something?

Is that referring to Leung Jan's creation of the 3 forms with Wong Wah Bo?



1, my opps. it is 1890 writing note instead of 1870.

see the following Wayne's presentation on his snake and crane WCK lineage.

scrol down to page 5 to see the image of the 1890 preserved writing note.

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/history-snake-crane-wing-chun-mun



2, IMHO, we are looking at hard evidence of from 1850 now.
so seems like lineage and name is no longer that important because
what we want to get into is the description of the art at that era.
it is like Hendrik is not important 100 years from today because people
can take a look at his youtube content.






Also, in regards to the comparison to the Chen Taichi system, that form seems distinctly
different than the description in the kuit you've posted. In the Taichi form, first thing there
is a big step out initially with shoulders becoming tilted uneven level during this transition...
and then once set the practitioner raises the arms afterwards, and while the hands are slightly
different level/heights in this transition, theyre not what most would describe as
yin and yang at that point.



Is the above referring to the to the alternating toes/heels in and out to open into the stance,
or is there an alternate opening transition? In Pin Sun there is a 'darting horse' stance transition
that might fit that description, as well as the side-body turning shift. Interesting.

every line is an instruction in details.

for fun of digging deep into it.

attached is a picture on the detail explaination and instruction of the
first line of the emei 12 zhuang (which is believe
to be the mother of the first line of the yik kam slt ko kuit above)
by the gate keeper of Emei 12 Zhuang in details in 1950.
when he released the knowledge to the public.

let this tell you the full story of what is all these EVEN shoulder stance and clamping Yang stuffs
without guessing as what it is mean 800 years ago.

BTW these emei 12 zhuang stuffs is in the lotus cannon keep in the Beijing Museum
as I last heard. So, the father of SLT is a track able SOME BODY in the history of China not
some oridinary stuffs. this is before chen taiji was born.

CFT, please help !

[Hendrik]

Just my opinion,

I am not trying to be sacastic or impolite
when I am asking what shao lin? what taiji?
who in red boat?

the fact is we have lots of data today to track down things.

we cannot continous to guess. we need atleast an accurate
first order answer. otherwise, our art is going to go no where and wasting our life practice those sets monkey around thinking everyone's intepretation is valid. Nope, that is not the case in fact. it is very specific otherwise it will work different.

take a look at the above Emei description, there are layers of design in the art
which is not us modern people aware of.

[Hendrik]

If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountain disappeared,
If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes
The world I know fades away
But you stay


If the years take away
Every memory that I have
I would still know the way
That would lead me back to your side
The north star may die
But the light that I see in your eyes
Will burn there always





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkM5KUCAlbw&feature=related




There are lots of very artistic and creative dancer and martial artists WCners in the USA and Europe, I hope these artis take these information as the first step and further grow and evolve WCK.

[LoneTiger108]

(What question??"" joy

The question Joy is, will this sort of research that Hendrik is obviously so passionate about be of any use whatsoever to the many Wing Chun students and teachers who seem to not care about the history or culture of our martial ancestors??

Does anybody here understand the kuit from Yik Kam? Without thought :)


If. One get this piece of kuit, snake and crane lineage 1870 wiring, koolo Gm Fung Chun art, one can have a first order view on how the system look. Because these cover the 1850 to early 1900.

I completely agree with what you say here Hendrik, but how can we connect Yik Kams understanding (which has also been though the Cho Family mix) to what Ip Man passed to the West?

[LoneTiger108]

Just an observation...

You mention that the text you posted is in the 'Beijing Museum' but I see the use of modern simplified chinese characters (?)

[Hendrik]

Just an observation...

You mention that the text you posted is in the 'Beijing Museum' but I see the use of modern simplified chinese characters (?)

The kuit of emei or the lotus cannon is in the Beijing museum.

The text picture I post is the explanation of that particular sentence by Gm chow cien cuan in the 1950. This is the 1950 piece.

Hope this clear up .

[Hendrik]

I completely agree with what you say here Hendrik, but how can we connect Yik Kams understanding (which has also been though the Cho Family mix) to what Ip Man passed to the West?

Though the cho family mix is your own opinion.

My suggestion is , why don't you study and know what it is as it Is before any further action?

[Hendrik]

The question Joy is, will this sort of research that Hendrik is obviously so passionate about be of any use whatsoever to the many Wing Chun students and teachers who seem to not care about the history or culture of our martial ancestors??




The kuit is technology of WCK.

The history or culture is only to understand the language to decode the technology language.


If one knows the third and fourth line of the kuit, one will never ask about those 0 100 or 50 50 stuff. One will never ask how to do WCK short Jin. Those are no longer questions, but a clear direction has been provided to handle the issue naturally according to WCK .

That is the impact of the kuit. Just two sentences. It is the ticket to reality. That is transformation which will transform WCK over night. Not even over night but in one hour.

Can I deliver ? Not me.

But the WCK ancestor always deliver .

it is just we never learn what they say or never listen. If we keep running round, shaolin shaolin, taiji taiji , rooting rooting, 50 50 0 100, my way your way. No one will even see what is obvious in front of one's eyes. So, are we study wing Chun or we make up what we like to make?

[LoneTiger108]

That is the impact of the kuit. Just two sentences. It is the ticket to reality. That is transformation which will transform WCK over night. Not even over night but in one hour.

Can I deliver ? Not me.

Once again, thanks for responding Hendrik. I think we are getting better at this type of conversation and research!! But...

Why do you say you can't you deliver this knowledge?


But the WCK ancestor always deliver .

it is just we never learn what they say or never listen. If we keep running round, shaolin shaolin, taiji taiji , rooting rooting, 50 50 0 100, my way your way. No one will even see what is obvious in front of one's eyes. So, are we study wing Chun or we make up what we like to make?

I think what you could try harder to understand, from my point of view I have studied & trained Wing Chun. I started learning from a line of kuit and this has never changed up to this very day. I still teach line by line too, with varied interpretations, and this is what I am very very proud of (and why myself and my Kung Fu Brother set up The Yum Yeurng Academy)

I am quite familiar with Martial literature, which is why I feel what you have presented here is a treasure, but I wish you could see that other families that existed even after Ip Man passed away still have reference to this method of teaching. And if they do not, this doesn't mean that they automatically fall into the category of 'not knowing' anything at all about Wing Chun!!

I have met and exchanged with some superb Martial Artists, both within my own family and beyond, and none of them had access to or even needed this type of kuit to develop into decent practitioners. In fact I would go as far to say that my own 'addiction' to this sort of knowledge has only ever slowed me down lol!! It helps for teaching purposes, but sometimes the best teaching is actually received through ACTION and not TALKING or READING.

So, please SHOW something outside of form lectures etc because surely you can demonstrate this whole piece of kuit, no?

Just an after thought...

[Hendrik]

Once again, thanks for responding Hendrik. I think we are getting better at this type of conversation and research!! But...

Why do you say you can't you deliver this knowledge?



I think what you could try harder to understand, from my point of view I have studied & trained Wing Chun. I started learning from a line of kuit and this has never changed up to this very day. I still teach line by line too, with varied interpretations, and this is what I am very very proud of (and why myself and my Kung Fu Brother set up The Yum Yeurng Academy)

I am quite familiar with Martial literature, which is why I feel what you have presented here is a treasure, but I wish you could see that other families that existed even after Ip Man passed away still have reference to this method of teaching. And if they do not, this doesn't mean that they automatically fall into the category of 'not knowing' anything at all about Wing Chun!!

I have met and exchanged with some superb Martial Artists, both within my own family and beyond, and none of them had access to or even needed this type of kuit to develop into decent practitioners. In fact I would go as far to say that my own 'addiction' to this sort of knowledge has only ever slowed me down lol!! It helps for teaching purposes, but sometimes the best teaching is actually received through ACTION and not TALKING or READING.

So, please SHOW something outside of form lectures etc because surely you can demonstrate this whole piece of kuit, no?

Just an after thought...


1。I say I cant deliver because I am just a messenger. It is not my invention.

2. The different between you and me is, I take this writing as a description of a technology . No more no less. And you take it as something else.

3. This thread is on the WCK on the red boat 1850. Thus, it is not about something outside the record. Again, we need to learn to know what is it instead of take it as what we like to think.

[LoneTiger108]

1。I say I cant deliver because I am just a messenger. It is not my invention.

2. The different between you and me is, I take this writing as a description of a technology . No more no less. And you take it as something else.

3. This thread is on the WCK on the red boat 1850. Thus, it is not about something outside the record. Again, we need to learn to know what is it instead of take it as what we like to think.

All fair points, but I think you are still misunderstanding me.

1. Wing Chun itself is nobodies invention? Yet we are named after the lady who dedicated her life to Martial Art teaching, according to stories. Which in essence makes us all messengers.

But by being a messenger, you HAVE to deliver. We are not simply talking of a theoretical stsyem here. No Matter whether you agree with it's developments over time or not, everybody who is now teaching or has taught Wing Chun before has had their individual input. Right or wrong doesn't matter. It's happened.

2. I understand that you take this type of kuit as a 'technology' because that's possibly been your own lifes influences on your interpretation of the art. I do look at some of the more internal expressions in that way of course, but I have direct experience using certain kuit to actually pass on methods of Wing Chun too! Practises that emulate the lines. As others have also learnt the fearless fighting nature of our art too, without the need for this technology or any kuit whatsoever.

And maybe that's specifically because the lines I have been exposed to are of that nature, and what you have learnt is more 'technology' based. No right or wrong again imho, but you are convinced otherwise aren't you?

Your way is the 'correct' way and all that, which may well be true!! But until you actually find a way to deliver this knowedge in a practical manner so we can see where you are coming from then we're still only researching knowedge, for research sake.

3. I don't quite know what to say about this except what do you actually know about Chinese/Canton Opera itself? What experience have you got performing Martial Art in such a manner? What differences are there in the training?

Your answers will already tell you what you need to know about the connection of Wing Chun to the Opera troupes. And in my little experience submerged in this type of culture through learning directly with my Sifu, the methods used to train were far from just a simple 'technology' for the mind to contemplate.

It was more Lights, Camera, ACTION!! :)

[Hendrik]

All fair points, but I think you are still misunderstanding me. --------

Could be.



1. Wing Chun itself is nobodies invention? Yet we are named after the lady who dedicated her life to Martial Art teaching, according to stories. Which in essence makes us all messengers. --------

The reality in china is technology is a revolution and evolution. Thus, wing Chun technology doesn't come out from thin air from no body.

That is different compare with the story told in the shows brothers movies.



But by being a messenger, you HAVE to deliver. We are not simply talking of a theoretical stsyem here. No Matter whether you agree with it's developments over time or not, everybody who is now teaching or has taught Wing Chun before has had their individual input. Right or wrong doesn't matter. It's happened.---------


A messenger deliver only message. The message is there is a time capsule of 1850 available to be investigate. It is up to others to take or leave the message.




2. I understand that you take this type of kuit as a 'technology' because that's possibly been your own lifes influences on your interpretation of the art. I do look at some of the more internal expressions in that way of course, but I have direct experience using certain kuit to actually pass on methods of Wing Chun too! Practises that emulate the lines. As others have also learnt the fearless fighting nature of our art too, without the need for this technology or any kuit whatsoever. ---------


The Technology is based on the definition define by the Chinese technologiest in the past. In this case the emei and white crane. If one want to know what it is one has to
Study those instead of making personal interpretation.




And maybe that's specifically because the lines I have been exposed to are of that nature, and what you have learnt is more 'technology' based. No right or wrong again imho, but you are convinced otherwise aren't you? -----


You are still thinking what it is rather then knowing what it is a technology.





Your way is the 'correct' way and all that, which may well be true!! But until you actually find a way to deliver this knowedge in a practical manner so we can see where you are coming from then we're still only researching knowedge, for research sake.------


May be you cannot taste the tea because you didn't empty your cup.




3. I don't quite know what to say about this except what do you actually know about Chinese/Canton Opera itself? What experience have you got performing Martial Art in such a manner? What differences are there in the training? --------


There is no need to go around and speculate and making personal interpretation.

Just take things as it is.



Your answers will already tell you what you need to know about the connection of Wing Chun to the Opera troupes. And in my little experience submerged in this type of culture through learning directly with my Sifu, the methods used to train were far from just a simple 'technology' for the mind to contemplate.----------

Why do one needs to go round and round when one just have to take the kuit, decode it with the language written it. And know what it is?




It was more Lights, Camera, ACTION!! :). -------

The issue is it is not about making movie but can one's slt training take one to the level slt needs to take one to.

[LoneTiger108]

Again, thanks for spending a little time to give me some feedback. I notice that you like to be brief, so I will try and do the same!


The reality in china is technology is a revolution and evolution. Thus, wing Chun technology doesn't come out from thin air from no body.

That is different compare with the story told in the shows brothers movies.

A little condescending don't you think? It's ok, but I was only saying what has been said from many teachers to many students. Yim Wing Chun and her teacher Ng Mui is a common story that has nothing whatsoever to do with any Shaw Bros movie :D


A messenger deliver only message. The message is there is a time capsule of 1850 available to be investigate. It is up to others to take or leave the message.

Understood.


The Technology is based on the definition define by the Chinese technologiest in the past. In this case the emei and white crane. If one want to know what it is one has to Study those instead of making personal interpretation.

I am more interested in Wing Chun technology that is present in everything I have trained (of which there is a key technology imho) This may or may not have direct connection to Emei and White Crane, but I at least know for a fact that it is directly connected to Ip Man 'first'. I wuldn't want to throw out his lifetimes work.


You are still thinking what it is rather then knowing what it is a technology.

But this is all we can all do Hendrik. We have no real example of this technology you talk of in practical and familiar action. Because as far as I am seeing, you are the only one using this Emei kuit to teach 'Wing Chun'. And this in all honesty is why I am interested to see how you move, and especially how you move in an interactive environment.

Am I the only one interested?


May be you cannot taste the tea because you didn't empty your cup.

And how do I empty my cup exactly?


Why do one needs to go round and round when one just have to take the kuit, decode it with the language written it. And know what it is?

Hmmm because 'real' kung fu is bl00dy hard work!!?? There is definitely more to Wing Chun than reading but you must know this already?

I will leave it there because I don't want to continue going over the same old ground. I enjoyed what you have shared, and attempted to offer some honest feedback. It's up to you to see if you can take on board what I am trying to share with you.

[fan]

if i may just offer an opinion, and i am no expert, from what i was told, kuen kuit or fist formulas are present in many CMA in varying quantities. these formulas are not intended to be instructions per se but more as a reminder of key points, a memory aid and/or a very high level syllabus guide.

some are rhyming, others have a musical quality, these verses are really memorable to native speakers. they certainly do not replace direct teaching but without them something substantial about the art is also lost.

on the subject of chinese opera, it can just be a convenient lineage denominator at a practical level. thus there is the hong kong line, the futsan line, the gulao line, and the red boat opera line.

not getting into the discussion here, just making this one post.

[LoneTiger108]

... some are rhyming, others have a musical quality, these verses are really memorable to native speakers. they certainly do not replace direct teaching but without them something substantial about the art is also lost.

Your input is welcome. And believe me when I say 'I know what you mean' because this is the way I learnt Wing Chun from Day 1. I understand some of the varieties kuen kuit comes in too, and I'm NOT a native speaker! My Sifu expected my interest.

All this stuff is great, and I'm not trying to take anything away from Hendriks' contribution but the 'Operatic' line is not the only one to learn in such a manner FME.


hong kong line, the futsan line, the gulao line, and the red boat opera line.

Not meaning to sound rude, but this is just simple marketing strategy and you forgot the 'Rebel Killer line' I've read about recently lol! And if I wanted to ruffle feathers I would insist on people researching my own Sigung and Sifu, because what I learnt seems to be an almagamation of ALL these 'so-called' lineages, yet when I first demonstrated we were 'not Wing Chun' according to feedback from the Wing Chun community in the UK.

I am interested in Wing Chun. Period. Where it has been influenced, from whatever area of the World or individual matters for historical reference, but to me that's all it is. Reference.

I am more interested in where we are all at today as a united system. A Martial 'Pye' :)

[YouKnowWho]

there is the hong kong line, the futsan line, the gulao line, and the red boat opera line. ... Rebel Killer line ...

For some unknown reason WC guys seem to be over concern about which line that they may come from. If we compare the WC system to the Chinese wrestling system, the Chinese wrestling system contains Beijing line, Tianjing line, Baoding line, Mongoloan line, ShanXi line, and Yi minority line. The Beijing line and Tianjing line had been merged into one in the past 50 years. The interest thing is no matter which Chinese wrestling line that you may come from, the whole Chinese wrestling system will be considered as one single family. No Chinere wrestler will declare that his method is better than the other Chinese wrestler's method. Not sure why this kind of big family thinking won't also apply to the WC system.

As far as to discuss what our ancestor did hundreds years ago, it may be more important to talk about what we can do today instead. When I read any TCMA book, I always skip the history chapter and go directly into the technique chapters.

[Hendrik]

if i may just offer an opinion, and i am no expert, from what i was told, kuen kuit or fist formulas are present in many CMA in varying quantities. these formulas are not intended to be instructions per se but more as a reminder of key points, a memory aid and/or a very high level syllabus guide.

some are rhyming, others have a musical quality, these verses are really memorable to native speakers. they certainly do not replace direct teaching but without them something substantial about the art is also lost.

on the subject of chinese opera, it can just be a convenient lineage denominator at a practical level. thus there is the hong kong line, the futsan line, the gulao line, and the red boat opera line.

not getting into the discussion here, just making this one post.



There are too many ways opinions could go.

so, let's take a look on the evidence from the past , instead of guessing what happen in 1850 red boat ; where all these lines not born yet.


The following is a sample of both the emei kuit and its present day explanation of what the Emei 12 Zhuang Kuit is for. Take a look and compare them and observe what are the similarities with the Yik Kam SLT kuit, also what are they are for. also, one can see where the eight method of legs comes from.


〕气平立正平肩裆，两掌前起半阴阳，后臂平肩等胸阔，前肘微屈对鼻梁，大指翘立齐眉际。四指轻联并雁行。再 将左右任分腿。。

解释：这段十四句讲的是练法，前八句讲动作，后六句讲动作时的要求。

起势要求双脚同肩宽，平行，略内扣，双腿自然直立，口唇紧闭，舌抵上腭，然后双臂前举，双手掌心相对，上臂 同肩齐，小臂同胸宽，掌心相对齐鼻，竖起大拇指齐眉高，双目平视前方，身要正，气要平，这是平肩裆。接着四 指像大雁飞行排成一字向两侧分开，同时左腿向左跨出一小步，把平肩裆变成一字裆，像个“大”字 。

在左腿向左跨出一小步时，须加进练腿的动作，称为足部八法...




one can see, there are so much details just in the first five lines of Yik Kam SLT Kuit for the YJKYM.


聚意會神平肩檔。兩手前起分陰陽
左腿跘出有善惡。右跟屈勁緊反藏
會合丹田督脈降。.


one can see three of the five lines is almost identical with the emei 12 zhuang kuit.

with the definition from the emei 12 zhuang, one can see details handling are very well define within these lines . one also could see from this 1850 sample what is the standard of the YJKYM mastering.

Compare those with today's evolution YJKYM one could see what is the different. also, is it true that " just keep training, and you will get there" is true in the past? or SLT is about details , details, and details very clearly describe and handle?

So, ask a question, how is one's YJKYM handling by the standard of 1850? I have asked myself that question in the 1980s and it shocked me.

[Hendrik]

For some unknown reason WC guys seem to be over concern about which line that they may come from. If we compare the WC system to the Chinese wrestling system, the Chinese wrestling system contains Beijing line, Tianjing line, Baoding line, Mongoloan line, ShanXi line, and Yi minority line. The Beijing line and Tianjing line had been merged into one in the past 50 years. The interest thing is no matter which Chinese wrestling line that you may come from, the whole Chinese wrestling system will be considered as one single family. No Chinere wrestler will declare that his method is better than the other Chinese wrestler's method. Not sure why this kind of big family thinking won't also apply to the WC system.

As far as to discuss what our ancestor did hundreds years ago, it may be more important to talk about what we can do today instead. When I read any TCMA book, I always skip the history chapter and go directly into the technique chapters.


take a look at the technology of 1850 then one can see what is it the single family is about.

but if one place line before and more important then technology then that is a different path.