Paul Chan's Choy Lee Fut

[Marcelo-RJ]

Yesterday I had an interesting training session with a gentleman called Chon, who used to teach CLF in my city, Rio de Janeiro, by the middle of the last decade.

Mr. Chon has learned Choy Lee Fut from Master Lap Wah Ng (Brazil), on his turn a student of Master Paul Chan (Canada).

I enjoyed the training very much, and I'm grateful to my Sifu, Wong Zen Yem (NYC) for encouraging me to have as much experience with CLF as I can, no matter what family/lineage I get in touch with. Considering that there's not even a single CLF school in Rio at this writting, each opportunity I have is more than precious.

The material Mr Chon shew me and drilled with me was objectively distinct from my previous CLF experience with (Futsan Hung Sing?)Master Chan Kwok Wai's disciple Marcello Teixeira (on whom be peace) and (King Mui) Sifu Wong Zen Yem. Many of the exercises that Mr. Chon shared with me had a distinct Hung Gar flavour, with lots of dynamic tension and lots of one finger bridge hands.

This is the form Mr. Chon performed last night (the video is of his sifu doing a sort of step by step demo): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01e5n_aTcw

I have never heard of a Siu Nam Kuen either in CLF or in Hung Gar. It resambles HG the most, though.

And here is his sifu performing Siu Mui Fa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4IJ52SZkSI

Almost the same as my Sifu's Siu Mui Fa (Chan Family/King Mui), but certainly with another flavour: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-SFvbnzTuU

Master Paul Chan deleted his lineage charter from his website, but I found this one: http://www.geocities.ws/san_soowushu/Siu_Hung.html

At first glance, it seems he's Chan Fam, but I wouldn't say so after the last night training.

Would anyone here be willing to share some info on Paul Chan's Choy Lee Fut?

Thanks in advance!

[hskwarrior]

Siu Nam Kuen either in CLF

Little Southern Fist? It sounds like a hybrid or a newly created one. But not from CLF. i would agree has mucho hung gar flavor.


Master Chan History


Master Paul Chan has been teaching martial arts for 42 years.

At age 11, he began training in Chinese martial arts, and throughout the course of his life, he has studied under three famous masters and trained thousands of students.


Early Beginings
At age 11, Master Paul Chan began training under Grandmaster Wong Chun Yip in October 1943.

Grandmaster Wong, a boxer of Short-Hand Choi Lee Fut, taught martial arts at Chunyung village in the Chong Lau district of Guangdong province, People's Republic of China. Grandmaster Wong later established himself in Fow Shek village where he opened the Heung Hing Federation and took thirty children between the ages of 8 to 15 as his students.

Paul Chan was among the thirty students to enrol in the school and spent 6 years under Grandmaster Wong's gruelling regimen. Forging their skills with hard work and discipline, Grandmaster Wong made his students recite the following dictum on a daily basis, "Never be afraid of the strong, for you have fast hands and feet. Develop fast hands, quick eyes, powerful techniques, and a quick mind."

After six long years under Grandmaster Wong's arduous training regimen, Master Paul Chan had built a solid foundation in Chinese martial arts. With refined skills and spirit, this would mark the very beginning of Master Paul Chan's journey.


Tutelage Under a Legend
In 1949, Master Paul Chan took what he had learned in mainland China and moved to Hong Kong. While in Hong Kong, Master Paul Chan began training under the legendary boxer Grandmaster Chan Dau.

A native of Bon Li Won village, Grandmaster Chan Dau was a descendant of the powerful Yuan family. As one of Guangdong province's famed Ten Tigers, he was a man with a formidable reputation and a consummate warrior. Chan Dau is the founder of Do Pi or the Style of the Way.

Master Paul Chan learned Do Pi, or the Style of the Way, under Grandmaster Chan Dau. Over the course of many years, Master Paul Chan excelled in the style and forged a strong bond with Grandmaster Chan Dau. The two men shared a special relationship, as Master Paul Chan soon became the Grandmaster's "personal bodyguard" at every important occasion.

With a strong knowledge of Do Pi, fighting application techniques, and heigong, Master Paul Chan took what he learned from Grandmaster Chan Dau and later moved to Canada.


A New Legacy
In 1961, Master Paul Chan founded Hong Luck Kung Fu Club with a handful of associates in Toronto, Canada. Since that time, Hong Luck Kung Fu Club continues to share Choi Lee Fut and Do Pi with dedicated students of the martial arts.

Master Paul Chan also holds a black belt in judo, which he earned under Sensei Frank Hata****a between the years of 1958 to 1965.

Today, Master Paul Chan is the President of the Confederation of Canadian Wushu Organizations, Vice-President of the North American United Kung Fu Association, and holds many other titles. He still teaches classes and is every bit dedicated to the progress of his students.


Credentials
» Vice-President, North American Kung Fu Federation
» President, Confederation of Canadian Wushu Organizations
» Chief Brother, Canadian Chinese Free Masons
» President, Canadian Do Pi Association
» Advisor, Philippines Southern Chinese Wushu Association
» Honourary Chairman, Guangdong Province Choi Lee Fut Association
» Honourary Chairman, Guangzhou City Physical Education Association
» Eternal Supervisor, Ontario Federation of Martial Arts
» Advisor, Western Canada Chinese Wushu Association
» Honourary Chairman, Taishan City Wushu Association
» Honourary Chairman, Hong Kong Chan Dau Do Pi Fist Association
» Chief Instructor of Do Pi and Choi Leet Fut, Hong Luck Kung Fu Club

[kung fu fighter]

Little Southern Fist? It sounds like a hybrid or a newly created one. But not from CLF. i would agree has mucho hung gar flavor.


Master Chan History


Master Paul Chan has been teaching martial arts for 42 years.

At age 11, he began training in Chinese martial arts, and throughout the course of his life, he has studied under three famous masters and trained thousands of students.


Early Beginings
At age 11, Master Paul Chan began training under Grandmaster Wong Chun Yip in October 1943.

Grandmaster Wong, a boxer of Short-Hand Choi Lee Fut, taught martial arts at Chunyung village in the Chong Lau district of Guangdong province, People's Republic of China. Grandmaster Wong later established himself in Fow Shek village where he opened the Heung Hing Federation and took thirty children between the ages of 8 to 15 as his students.

Paul Chan was among the thirty students to enrol in the school and spent 6 years under Grandmaster Wong's gruelling regimen. Forging their skills with hard work and discipline, Grandmaster Wong made his students recite the following dictum on a daily basis, "Never be afraid of the strong, for you have fast hands and feet. Develop fast hands, quick eyes, powerful techniques, and a quick mind."

After six long years under Grandmaster Wong's arduous training regimen, Master Paul Chan had built a solid foundation in Chinese martial arts. With refined skills and spirit, this would mark the very beginning of Master Paul Chan's journey.


Tutelage Under a Legend
In 1949, Master Paul Chan took what he had learned in mainland China and moved to Hong Kong. While in Hong Kong, Master Paul Chan began training under the legendary boxer Grandmaster Chan Dau.

A native of Bon Li Won village, Grandmaster Chan Dau was a descendant of the powerful Yuan family. As one of Guangdong province's famed Ten Tigers, he was a man with a formidable reputation and a consummate warrior. Chan Dau is the founder of Do Pi or the Style of the Way.

Master Paul Chan learned Do Pi, or the Style of the Way, under Grandmaster Chan Dau. Over the course of many years, Master Paul Chan excelled in the style and forged a strong bond with Grandmaster Chan Dau. The two men shared a special relationship, as Master Paul Chan soon became the Grandmaster's "personal bodyguard" at every important occasion.

With a strong knowledge of Do Pi, fighting application techniques, and heigong, Master Paul Chan took what he learned from Grandmaster Chan Dau and later moved to Canada.


A New Legacy
In 1961, Master Paul Chan founded Hong Luck Kung Fu Club with a handful of associates in Toronto, Canada. Since that time, Hong Luck Kung Fu Club continues to share Choi Lee Fut and Do Pi with dedicated students of the martial arts.

Master Paul Chan also holds a black belt in judo, which he earned under Sensei Frank Hata****a between the years of 1958 to 1965.

Today, Master Paul Chan is the President of the Confederation of Canadian Wushu Organizations, Vice-President of the North American United Kung Fu Association, and holds many other titles. He still teaches classes and is every bit dedicated to the progress of his students.


Credentials
» Vice-President, North American Kung Fu Federation
» President, Confederation of Canadian Wushu Organizations
» Chief Brother, Canadian Chinese Free Masons
» President, Canadian Do Pi Association
» Advisor, Philippines Southern Chinese Wushu Association
» Honourary Chairman, Guangdong Province Choi Lee Fut Association
» Honourary Chairman, Guangzhou City Physical Education Association
» Eternal Supervisor, Ontario Federation of Martial Arts
» Advisor, Western Canada Chinese Wushu Association
» Honourary Chairman, Taishan City Wushu Association
» Honourary Chairman, Hong Kong Chan Dau Do Pi Fist Association
» Chief Instructor of Do Pi and Choi Leet Fut, Hong Luck Kung Fu Club

Hi,

have you heard of one of Master Paul Chan's student by the name of Toney fucelli? I heard he had quite the reputation amoung old school bouncers in toronto back in the day, and was undefeated as a street fighter.

[hskwarrior]

Hi,

have you heard of one of Master Paul Chan's student by the name of Toney fucelli? I heard he had quite the reputation amoung old school bouncers in toronto back in the day, and was undefeated as a street fighter.

sorry the name doesn't ring a bell for me.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Thank you, Sifu Frank, for your answer.
The text you quotes reads "short hand Choy Lee Fut".
Is that a separate lineage, I mean, something particular to Master Paul Chan's sifu, maybe a mix CLF+HG?

[hskwarrior]

yeah i believe it was either going to be a new lineage or possibly one lineage who focused more on the shorter handed stuff.

On one hand it could just be a chan family lineage who develops the shorter hands stuff.

and yeah it could be a mix of CLF and Hung Gar....i would think so.

[crazyfistmonk]

My Choy Lay Fut teacher taught me Hung style's Sup Ying Kuen. I didn't learn until later on what form it actually was. It is the only Hung style form I learned from him, but I continue to practice it for strength and power development. Hung style builds power, no doubt!
Most (not all) Southern systems (those typically not of the Hakka variety) tend to share forms due to their common features, concepts, and developmental qualities. So, it is not surprising that you would find a heavy Hung style flavor within the particular branch of Choy Lay Fut that you are researching.

All hail the Southern fist!

[Marcelo-RJ]

I see where you come from, brother.
I myself believe in the virtues of cross-training and absorbing what's useful from the other's style.
The point is: if HG's flavour is more intense... is it still CLF?
I'd love to hear from someone from Master Paul Chan's camp.

[Frost]

Not from Master Pauls Chans camp, but did study for a brief period with a student of his cousin master mark chan, he also taught the same village short hand CLF style from Toisan that Paul teaches
From what I remember it was a style combining the teachings of various visiting teaches/monks combining both hung gar and CLF, they had a saying Hung(gar) head, Choy (gar) tail.
There CLF was played at a closer range I believe (not don’t any other CLF to compare it with just what I had heard) and since it was mixed with hung gar did have a harder feel, but it was still most definitely CLF, both Master Chan’s hold teaching positions within their respective Chinese freemason associations, which would suggest both are held in high regard amongst the Chinese community, I also know that both have also trained with other highly regarded master, paul chan with Chan Dau, Mark Chan with Bak Mei Master Chow Fook

[Marcelo-RJ]

Thank you, Frost, for the valuable information you provided.

Panther Fist Charp Chois and Saw Chois aside, most of the hands I saw in my CLF training with Mr. Chon were definitely Hung Gar (I myself practiced HG - Master Li Hon Ki's school - between 11 and 16 yrs old so I instantly recognizes the shapes), but the stances and the Da Bo drills were pretty much CLF.

Mr Chon does not have many info or interest on the lineage thing, so I wonder whether Master Paul Chan learned the short hand CLF from his teacher or whether he learned Chan Fam CLF and HG from his teacher and later created the short hand CLF by blending those two Southern arts.

Master Paul Chan's website is not clear about the historical background of his CLF, hence my bringing these questions to the forum,

[Frost]

Since his cousin Master Mark Chan and his students refer to their lineage as short hand CLF as well, I suspect it all came from their grand father Wong Chun Yip which I believe comes from the Toisan Lee Hin CLF lineage
Of course all this is going from memory lol its been a while since I actually did the style
When I did the system we learned separate CLF forms, and hung gar forms, don’t know if that helps

[hskwarrior]

they had a saying Hung(gar) head, Choy (gar) tail.

Oh yeah, i've heard of Hung Tao Choy Mei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN-Ftrc-N-o

[CLFNole]

Hung Tao Choy Mei - is a common reference to Jow Gar. That could explain things because Jow Gar sure looks like a mixture of hung gar and CLF.

[hskwarrior]

yeah that form i posted moves very similar to the one Marcelo posted.


Jow-Ga Kung Fu (Chinese: 周家) (aka Zhou Jia) (Chinese: 周家功夫) is a form of Kung Fu. It was founded by Jow Lung who was born in 1891, on the eleventh day of the third lunar month (April 16th, 1891) in Sa Fu Village of the Canton Province, and died in 1919. His father was Jow Fong Hoy and his mother’s maiden name was Li. At the time of its inception, this particular style of Kung Fu was labeled as having the head of Hung Gar, the tail of Choy Gar and the patterns of the tiger and leopard, or simply Hung Tao Choy Mei. It was so labeled because the essential techniques incorporated the muscular and mighty movements of Hung Gar and the swift footwork and complex kicking of Choy Gar, making it a very effective form of self defense with emphasis on simultaneous attack and defense.

[Frost]

lol i might have got that completly wrong as im going from memory, they used hung gar to build the foundation and CLF was added from what i remember, it wasnt jow gar it was a village based CLF system which taught hung gar and CLF forms, as well as 5 animals

Although i suppose if someone developed a system by adding hung gar and CLF, you get what would look like another system which was put together out of elemants of hung gar and CLF

[hskwarrior]

Jow Ga also has:

Siu Ng Ying Kuen - Small Five Animal Fist ( 五形拳 )

Dai Ng Ying Kuen - Big Five Animal Fist ( 大五形拳 )

I seem to feel this is very well could be hung tao choy mei as it looks pretty much like what marcelo posted. but thats just my opinion

[David Jamieson]

Here is Sifu Paul Chan's club: http://www.hongluck.org/

Here is his Brother Mark: http://www.greendragonkungfu.ca/GD/

You can read their bios and all about the styles they teach at those sites.

Both are respected TCMA-ists who have been actively teaching longer than many members here have been alive. Even me!

Sifu Paul Chan has been teaching kung fu in Toronto Canada since 1961. that's like 3 years before I was even born.

I suspect he knows something. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hong Luck is a good club, was there for a bit with a friend.
Their "closed door" training is rather brutal.


have you heard of one of Master Paul Chan's student by the name of Toney fucelli? I heard he had quite the reputation amoung old school bouncers in toronto back in the day, and was undefeated as a street fighter.

You sure you got that name right ??
Sure not Tony Vesseti?

[Marcelo-RJ]

Sifu Frank, the form you posted belongs to Fei Hok Phai, created upon a Hung Gar foundation by the late Sifu Lope Chiu Ping, probably after he moved to Brazil.

Now, according to a deleted page within Master Paul Chan's website, Siu Nam Kuen is a HG form (see http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62024).

And according to Master Mark Chan's website, their Hung Kuen comes from the same source of their CLF: Wong Cheung Yip. See http://www.greendragonkungfu.ca/GD/Lineage/index.htm

So I assume Siu Nam Kuen is a Hung Gar form exclusive of Wong Cheung Yip's lineage.

I noticed that the footwork (only the footwork) Mr. Chon shew me is more akin to the CLF I've seen when studied under Marcello Teixeira (a deceased CLF disciple of Master Chan Kwok Wai) than to the footwork I've learned under Sifu Wong Zen Yem (Chan Fam).

There could be a recent historical link between Chan Kwok Wai's and Paul Chan's CLF, since the both of them are from Toishan.

BTW, Paul Chan's Ng Lum Kuen, as demonstrated by Mr. Chon, is quite different from Sifu Wong Zen Yem's Ng Lum Choi...

[David Jamieson]

Toishan is huge though as regions go.
Most southern styles of shaolin based kung fu comes from there.

Chan Kwok Wai connection is interesting.

But he only learned CLF until 14 or 15 years old according to his bio.
He is a well known teacher of Bak Sil Lum in Brazil though (Bei Shaolin) and learned pretty much directly from Ku Yu Cheongs lineage carrier Yim Sheung Mo.

[Marcelo-RJ]

According to CKW, his CLF learning started in his hometown under Chan Cheok Sing (between 11 and 14 yrs old).
After moving to Hong Kong, he kept on learning - now, Hung Sing under Yan You Chin and Buk Sing under Yin Sheung Mo (his Buk Siu Lum teacher).

It's interesting that CKW's lineage charter does not mention "Chan Cheok Sing" - his Master in Toishan -, but only his two HK teachers.

It's also interesting to note that the historical info on his website is not reliable at all. For exemple, he states that Chan On Pak was the creator of Buk Sing CLF. He also takes Futsan Hung Sing for Chan Family CLF.

See: http://www.sinobrasileira.org/index.php?id=4&subid=11&ln=pt&scr=1024

[Marcelo-RJ]

I'm wondering here that maybe Extrajoseph - who certainly seems to be an old guard Chan Fam man - has some piece of information to add.

The point now is: Mr. Chon is a student of Master Wah, who happens to be, not only a student of Paul Chan, but also a close friend of Chan Kwok Wai's

So it's also possible that Master Wah replaced (Paul Chan's?) Chan Family footwork by Chan Kwok Wai's (Hung Sing) footwork.

Tried to get some info from Master Wah, but my Chinese is zero and his Portuguese is not enough for a long discussion.

[extrajoseph]

I'm wondering here that maybe Extrajoseph - who certainly seems to be an old guard Chan Fam man - has some piece of information to add.


Since my name is mentioned I will give my two cents worth. As far as I know Paul Chan also studied with Chan Dau in HK before migrating to Canada. Chan Dou not only learned CLF but also Hung Kuen and when he came to Hong Kong from Guangzhou he called his style Do Pi and was famous for his Lo Han Kuen (see clipping of Chan Dau below).

Some say what he does is Hung Tow Choy Mei (The head is Hung Kuen and the tail is CLF), so looking at Paul Chan's CLF, it has a lot of Hung Kuen influence and that is not surprising.

[hskwarrior]

hung tow choy mei

oh so the choy mei is "clf" huh? Lmao


head of Hung Gar, the tail of Choy Gar

:p:rolleyes::p:rolleyes::p:rolleyes::p:rolleyes:

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

Here is my reference, Choy can mean CLF and not just Choy Gar.

小弟先父是陳斗師公徒弟之一,同期師兄弟有趙中一及蘇源...等,據先父描述陳斗師公早年在廣州非常有名, 但由於在廣州發生了一些事情所以被迫走到香港設館受徒,開創道派國術總會。
道派主要是習洪拳蔡李佛,行內簡稱[洪頭蔡尾]。

http://www.uwants.com/viewthread.php?tid=6692308&extra=&page=1

"My father is a student of Chan Dau, with him at the same time was Zhao Chung and So Yuan, etc. According to my father, Chan Dau was very famous in Guangzhou, but because of certain incidence, he has to flee to Hong Kong and opened a school there and he founded the Do Pi Martial Arts Association. Do Pi mainly trained in Hung Kuen and CLF, people on the inside simply called it "Hung Head and Choy Tail".

[hskwarrior]

ooooooook! lol

Have a good day joseph, or night, depending on where you are.

[extrajoseph]

Chan Dau's daughter doing his famous "Lohan going out of his cave" 羅漢出洞 routine, you can see there is a good mix of Hung Kuen and CLF, but it is not Chow Gar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSU5I2i3S3k

[CLFNole]

"Hung Tao Choy Lay Fut Mei" doesn't have the snappy ring to it that "hung tao choy mei" has. :D;)

[hskwarrior]

uh the starting moves looks more like Lama to me than CLF.

[CLFNole]

Chan Dau's daughter doing his famous "Lohan going out of his cave" 羅漢出洞 routine, you can see there is a good mix of Hung Kuen and CLF, but it is not Chow Gar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSU5I2i3S3k

Almost looks like there is some kind of lama/hop gar connection too.

Wasn't Do Pi famous for a drunken form?

[CLFNole]

Definately a good deal of CLF in there too.

[hskwarrior]

then it should be called "hung head lama body chariles foot tail."

[CLFNole]

But that is just one form not necessarily the entire system or style.

[extrajoseph]

More Chan Dau Kung Fu during his anniversary in 2010 in Hong Kong.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTY2MzEwNzcy.html

[Marcelo-RJ]

Thank, EJ, for the info + video.
Looking at the "training itinerary" at http://www.hongluck.org/training-itinerary.html
I recognize the names of some CLF forms: Ng Lum Kuen, Ng Lum Ma, Siu Moi Fa, Dat Mo Kuen.
I've seen Mr Chon performing their Ng Lum Kuen and did not recognize Chan Family's Ng Lum Choi in it. On the other hand, their Siu Mui Fa looks like Chan Fam.
As to Siu Nan Kuen, it reads "Hun Gar", but it's surely not Lam Sai Wing's style.

[GruBianca]

uh the starting moves looks more like Lama to me than CLF.

Definitely Lama in its entirety. In Pak Hok Pai we have also a form with the same name but I've never seen it performed yet so I can't say how similar it would be.
That said the techniques displayed in that video are all Lama, Pao, Kup, Chao, Tsin, so on so forth

[htowndragon]

Chan Dau learned some Hop Gar. I think that info is on their website. Doesn't say who his teacher was though

[Ben Gash]

My Sifu (who was a senior student of Chan Yin Wah, who also trained a bit with Paul Chan) told me that Crane was a major component of Do Pi.
Now, having trained fairly extensively in Toisan Sil Lum and Lee Hin CLF, I've never seen Siu Nam Kuen, and I don't believe it's on the complete list of hand forms that my Sifu gave me either (I'll check in the morning). Therefore there's a good chance that it's Do Pi or something that Paul Chan picked up in HK, although it may be something that Wong Chun Yip taught only to Paul Chan.

[Ben Gash]

I've seen Mr Chon performing their Ng Lum Kuen and did not recognize Chan Family's Ng Lum Choi in it. On the other hand, their Siu Mui Fa looks like Chan Fam.
When I did Lee Hin the 5 wheel stance was done more like Tan Tui than a proper form.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Here it goes: Paul Chan's Ng Lun Kuen (part)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmotHvcBE_s

[Marcelo-RJ]

Hong Luck's curriculum reads Hung Gar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENrodeZpIy4

[Frost]

umm what exactly is your point now, and what are you after?

you have asked questions and been answered but are still posting clips :confused:

[Marcelo-RJ]

Thought it was obvious that the clips were meant to visually illustrate the topic. I apologize for not making that clear.

The point is that I have found those clips of Mr Chon performing Ng Lun Kuen and Siu Nan Kuen a couple of days ago and up to this point none had posted a specific clip of Master Paul Chan's Choy Lee Fut (remember, Siu Nan Kuen is "Hung Gar"). So, this is a contribution, a gift for the posters, not posted before because unknown until last weekend.

So, here it is: Ng Lun Kuen, that is, a visual record of Master Paul Chan's CLF.

[Ben Gash]

Just asked my Sifu, he said the Siu Nam Kuen is a Paul Chan form.

[hskwarrior]

paul chan passed away this morning in toronto, ontario. For those in the area, his funeral will be in a few days.
As for the club curriculum, the website has not been updated, for the past few years they have been emphasizing the original hop gar system.
....
For the inquiry as per tony vesseti, he died suddenly in a highway accident in 1992. He left behind a wife and young son.


oh no....my condolences to his students and family.

[taai gihk yahn]

uh the starting moves looks more like Lama to me than CLF.

definitely Lama / bak honk / hahp ga throughout, right up to the ending bow;

condolences re: Master Chan

[David Jamieson]

Condolences for Sifu Chan, his family and extended family.