Hung Gar without Iron wire set?

[illusionfist]

When people start talking about the real advanced stuff in hung gar, Tid Sin Kuen usually comes up and it is referred as the highest of the forms. So we know that Tit Kiu Sam was the one who introduced it and Wong Kei Ying and Wong Fei Hung all passed it down the lineage. But what about before Tit Kiu Sam, what do you think hung gar was like? Is the hung gar that we think of now all attributed to him? What would have been the internal training before iron wire (if there was any)? I know that gung gee has an internal aspect to it (and gung gee is considered to be the invention of hung hei gwun), but i don't think that we can say it's expansive enough. So what do you all think? I hope this makes sense... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Hopefully those of you with more history knowledge can help out with this.

Peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by illusionfist (edited 07-18-2000).]

[S.Bey]

Greetings
Tit Kiu Sam art was Sil Lum Hung Kuen, and his friendship with Wong Kei Ying stemmed from the two being kung fu brothers; both their educations coming from the same source. In fact, Tit Kiu Sam's contribution, the Tit Sin Kuen, WAS and IS Wong Kei Ying's Gung Ji Fuk Fu Kuen, done with extensive concepts ('12 bridges') and the advanced hei gung. Thus when we arrive at Tit Sin Kuen in our training we have come full circle, and as such our performance of Gung Ji should actually look like the Tit Sin Kuen.

S.Bey

[Lost_Disciple]

Not that I know jack about hung gar, but I've tried to read up on it whenever possible.
First, I thought Gung Ji was a form from Gee Sim See (sp? the abbot who taught hung); the only difference between what hung was taught, and what is taught now, being one small section.

From what you've told me, what I've heard, and what I've read; I agree with S.Bey, that Gung Ji is/was the system, and that all forms eventually lead back there. Which means, that you could've done the original form in that manner in the first place with similar results, as opposed to learning something entirely different & applying the info. So as long as that was in the old Hung Gar, then yah, I would assume it was complete- though I'm having a hard time understanding how hung gar can be applied to the ground. Well, for most kung fu styles anyway, for the ground, you merely apply the same principles that you use standing up. If you've gained the understanding of the style, you should be able to use it in a pool, on a space station, or standing on your head. I guess my problem is not understanding the translation, but merely lack of sufficient knowledge of hung gar & it's principles. So I'll just shut up now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW- I found a book at the book store called "Taming the Tiger". It's a Tibetian buddhist book, but I think the idea is common to Cha'an. Apparently "Fook Fu" is a Buddhist philosophy. The book's got a lot of theory and even some meditative exercises. I gave it to sifu to read, so he'll let me know if it's any value in addition to the hung gar form. Been reading up a LOT on buddhism lately myself. I'm starting to understand a lot more.

PPS- I gotta find a way to do the ching wu gung lek form in 15 seconds...it takes me 40 right now (though I'm usually flustered once I know I'm over-time).

Laterz bro

[illusionfist]

gung lek in 15 seconds? May the force be with you my friend!!!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Email me man, always neglectin a brotha.

Peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[hajimesaito]

Historically the Iron wire was introduced into Hung Gar by Wong Fei Hung who learned it from Tit kuen Sam (or his student). So why is Iron Wire set considered so important for Hung Gar nowadays? So much so that it is considered an advanced set which characterizes Hung Gar.

What was the original "advanced set" of Hung Gar which made early Hung Gar practitioners famous? Does practicing Tiger-Crane set really possess all the essence of Hung Gar over which sets like Iron wire just do "cosmetic additions"?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Historically the Iron wire was introduced into Hung Gar by Wong Fei Hung who learned it from Tit kuen Sam (or his student). So why is Iron Wire set considered so important for Hung Gar nowadays? So much so that it is considered an advanced set which characterizes Hung Gar.

What was the original "advanced set" of Hung Gar which made early Hung Gar practitioners famous? Does practicing Tiger-Crane set really possess all the essence of Hung Gar over which sets like Iron wire just do "cosmetic additions"?

Hung Gar is NOT the Tid sid kuen or any other form for that matter.
Hung Gar is what the practitioners make it.
It is an important set because it CAN take a persons Hung Gar to the next level.
Of course that depends on the person and what his/her goals are.
Is it an advanced set?
Sure but that depends on how one does it and for what purpose.
TSK can be a strength building form, a jing building one, it can be an internal form, it can be done in a "taiji" like mode or done in an explosive mode.
It depends on what one is developing at that time and I think THAT is what does indeed make it an advanced form.
Of course the same CAN be said of any other form too.

[once ronin]

Without meeting these people in these times who knows what was modified by addition or subtraction.

Wong Yan lam were good friends with Wong kay Ying, Wong Yan Lam's Hop Ga has alot of traits that hung ga has.

When one takes a photo of both styles, some will say it the same, yet the Hop Ga and Hung Ga are so different in principles.

Many would agree Hung Ga has to have chi kung prior to wong Fei Hung adding tit sin. So what was the chi kung prior?

[David Jamieson]

Hung fist, in all it's iterations embody:


Strength
Agility
Flexibility
Endurance
Speed
Structure
Technique
Power


This is all in the envelope of intention. None of it works without intention.

The sets it uses will aid in the cultivation and development of the above in the practitioner.

It also uses standard body development devices and exercises. Everybody's room and road work is different in how it's progressed through. Results do vary. :)

[Neeros]

Without meeting these people in these times who knows what was modified by addition or subtraction.

Wong Yan lam were good friends with Wong kay Ying, Wong Yan Lam's Hop Ga has alot of traits that hung ga has.

When one takes a photo of both styles, some will say it the same, yet the Hop Ga and Hung Ga are so different in principles.

Many would agree Hung Ga has to have chi kung prior to wong Fei Hung adding tit sin. So what was the chi kung prior?

I haven't learned the Iron Wire set yet, but from what I've heard from my seniors it is one of the most powerful internal force training sets in Kung fu, and that it was developed from the force training in the "triple stretch set", also called the "Great majestic set" that Hoong Hei Khoon and the Venerable Sam Tuck practiced.

Not to mention chi kung/force training in the form of Zhan Zhuang, set practice, internal and external gong training, etc etc etc.

It is a real shame most people practice Iron Wire as an isometric exercise these days.

[TenTigers]

I would guess whatever chi-gung before TSK would be sets like Muscle Change and Eight Pieces of Brocade, standing meds, etc. brought in by individual Sifus.
In fact, Sifu Yee Chi-Wai teaches a form of Muscle Change Classic in his school, as well as some static posture chi-gungs.

[Tea Serpent]

Hung Gar is a confusing topic as many of the Lineages seem to have different origins.
Often Hung Hei Goon is referred to as the founder but Wong Fei Hung's lineage traces their origin to Luk Ah Choy, While Tid Kiu Sam's Hung Gar traces to a different origin, and the Hung Gar Wong Kiew Kit learned traces to yet another origin.
Even the origin of the name changes depending on the lineage or who you talk to. It can refer to Hung Hei Goon, Hong Wu (The reign name of the first Ming emperor), The Hung Men organization (family), the Red (hong) boat opera, also called the Floating (Hong) opera.
The one thing most lineages have in common is that what ever the origin, or the explanation of their name, most claim to have been taught or practiced by member of the Hung Men.
So the forms taught change from area to area and lineage to lineage vary. There are many rarely seen lineages like the Zhanjiang Ten Animal style, or the Zhangzhou style. Generally the Iron Wire is only practiced in Schools that trace back to Wong Fei Hung although others have picked it up.
However many schools tracing their lineage to Hung Hei Goon practice the San Zhan set. Generally In Guangdong this translates as "Three Extensions", "Three Stretches", or "Three Straights". I believe that the Zhangzhou schools still use the name "Three Wars" but I am not certain. The set practiced in Zhangzhou is somewhat different from the one practiced in Guangdong. Supposedly the set was further developed by Tan Min who was Hung Hei Goon's first student in Guangdong.
I have heard different versions of what Tid Kiu Sam based his Iron Wire set on, but the general consensus seems to be that it was Tan Min's San Zhan set.

[LaterthanNever]

I've learned the 8 section brocade from my sifu in mantis, but I'm actually curious to see what the marrow/brain washing classic and muscle/tendon change classic(or its something similar to that) look like. I know Dr. Yang Jwing Ming has the exercises on video. Not that one should use a video as a substitution for it..

but it would seem to be a cool adjunct..:cool:

[Southern Fist]

Hajimesaito:

The reason why Tit Sin Kuen is considered an advance set to the majority of the Hung practitioners is that this set will train the internal energy and body methods for these practitioners.

As some of the members here have mentioned any other chi gung set can achieve this as well.

But, Tit Sin Kuen when done properly and taught by an experienced Sifu.
It will balance the practitioner to understand the framework (external shape) which Tiger and Crane tends to demonstrate, with training the breath and flexibility (internal shape) which come from the 12 bridges.

Every Sifu will emphasize different aspects of Tit Sin Kuen. This is why Tit Sin Kuen is kept as the last set to learn due to the variety of mental and fusion of hard and soft internal strength.

Tiger and Crane as mention earlier trains the practitioner the structure of what Hung Gar is about the strength of the tiger spirit and the fluid moves of the Crane.

Each of the pillar sets will train the Hung Ga practitioner a different aspect of the style.

[hajimesaito]

Thank you all for insightful replies.

I have also heard that in the earlier stages Hung Gar was mostly based no Tiger, but Crane was also later added after an encounter of Hung Gar fighter with a Crane stylist. So I guess Hung Gar's main characteristic is Tiger-Crane and practicing Hung Gar without Iron Wire set will also make someone into a good fighter (of course including sparring)?

I am not a practitioner of Hung Gar but some other Souther Shaolin derived family art which made its way to India via Malayasia through Chinese immigrants. But I still like researching about other styles and their characteristics.

Regards,
Hajimesaito

[hajimesaito]

Hung Gar is a confusing topic as many of the Lineages seem to have different origins.
Often Hung Hei Goon is referred to as the founder but Wong Fei Hung's lineage traces their origin to Luk Ah Choy, While Tid Kiu Sam's Hung Gar traces to a different origin, and the Hung Gar Wong Kiew Kit learned traces to yet another origin.
Even the origin of the name changes depending on the lineage or who you talk to. It can refer to Hung Hei Goon, Hong Wu (The reign name of the first Ming emperor), The Hung Men organization (family), the Red (hong) boat opera, also called the Floating (Hong) opera.
The one thing most lineages have in common is that what ever the origin, or the explanation of their name, most claim to have been taught or practiced by member of the Hung Men.
So the forms taught change from area to area and lineage to lineage vary. There are many rarely seen lineages like the Zhanjiang Ten Animal style, or the Zhangzhou style. Generally the Iron Wire is only practiced in Schools that trace back to Wong Fei Hung although others have picked it up.
However many schools tracing their lineage to Hung Hei Goon practice the San Zhan set. Generally In Guangdong this translates as "Three Extensions", "Three Stretches", or "Three Straights". I believe that the Zhangzhou schools still use the name "Three Wars" but I am not certain. The set practiced in Zhangzhou is somewhat different from the one practiced in Guangdong. Supposedly the set was further developed by Tan Min who was Hung Hei Goon's first student in Guangdong.
I have heard different versions of what Tid Kiu Sam based his Iron Wire set on, but the general consensus seems to be that it was Tan Min's San Zhan set.


Hi Tea Serpent,

Since you say that different Hung Gar lineages originated from different founders, are they just different styles with similar or same name? Or was there a common denominator in the early stages of its development? In other words, do most of these lineages share some basic essence that characterizes the style itself?

The reason why I was interested in it is because usually all styles have two or three aspects like Forms/sets, Qi Gong/Breathing and Standing post. For Hung Gar, since Wong Fei Hung's time the Qi Gong aspect has been covered by the Iron Wire set. But Wong Fei Hung was famous and skilled even before learning this set. So I was wondering if just practicing Hung Gar forms/sets alone can mould one into a good Hung Gar fighter while developing characteristics like strength, flexibility, agility, speed etc or there was another similar set which was replaced by the lineage of WFH.

San Zhan appears to be the same as practiced in white crane and Wuzu quan lineages. But why did some lineages drop it and replace it with IW set?

[hajimesaito]

Hajimesaito:

The reason why Tit Sin Kuen is considered an advance set to the majority of the Hung practitioners is that this set will train the internal energy and body methods for these practitioners.

As some of the members here have mentioned any other chi gung set can achieve this as well.

.

Hi Southern Fist,

I agree that Iron Wire set is extremely important internal set which completely enhances that potential of a Hung Gar fighter compared to when he only practices Hung style without Iron Wire set.

However, dont you agree that before Iron Wire was added Hung Gar fist was already quite reputed due to the skills of many Hung Gar fighters?

In that case, I believe IW set acts as an attenuation factor that multiplies the skills developed through other curriculum many times over, while also introducing more subtle internal aspects to the fighter?

[lance]

Historically the Iron wire was introduced into Hung Gar by Wong Fei Hung who learned it from Tit kuen Sam (or his student). So why is Iron Wire set considered so important for Hung Gar nowadays? So much so that it is considered an advanced set which characterizes Hung Gar.

What was the original "advanced set" of Hung Gar which made early Hung Gar practitioners famous? Does practicing Tiger-Crane set really possess all the essence of Hung Gar over which sets like Iron wire just do "cosmetic additions"?


The iron thread set is an internal form , the sounds you make is what arouses certain internal organs in your body . But you need a qualified HG sifu to learn the form . Because if you use to much internal power as you make those sounds , then theres' a possibility that you can damage any of your internal organs . HG without the iron thread set will just be a regular kung fu system . But what I would do is do the iron thread form like you are doing chi kung . Just breath regularly , and relax do the set like you ' re doing chi kung . Because , when
you ' re practicing the ma bu or horse stance , below our navel or dan tien is an energy pool , so the strength begins to circulate from your foot throughout your entire body . The thing with chi kung training is that it makes your arms heavy , but when you make contact with people , they can really feel your power .
Because the chi goes throughout your body when you ' re relaxed not tense . Then try it out , go and push and shove someone , and see how they react . It takes time to get results .

[Dragonzbane76]

I love fantasy land its such a nice place to visit this time of year.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I haven't learned the Iron Wire set yet, but from what I've heard from my seniors it is one of the most powerful internal force training sets in Kung fu, and that it was developed from the force training in the "triple stretch set", also called the "Great majestic set" that Hoong Hei Khoon and the Venerable Sam Tuck practiced.

Not to mention chi kung/force training in the form of Zhan Zhuang, set practice, internal and external gong training, etc etc etc.

It is a real shame most people practice Iron Wire as an isometric exercise these days.

Isokinetic, not isometric.
And context and development is everything.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I love fantasy land its such a nice place to visit this time of year.

If this comment is directed to the "sounds and internal" thing of the poster above you, you need to realize that many times we are victims of the cultural trappings of our arts.
The "internal language" that most MA get exposed to is just that.
In regards to the different sounds we make during the IW:
It's been shown that different sound vibrations cause different biochemical reactions, not only because of the "mood" they put us in but because of the actual vibrations running through our bodies ( the "oomm" of yogis and meditation is another example).
Don't ever let the "internal language" of an art mislead you into thinking that there isn't a biomechanical reason behind things.

[Frost]

I love fantasy land its such a nice place to visit this time of year.

always amazes me that the few (and i mean few) hung gar fighting clips out there tend to show the long arm stuff for the most part and not the close range power techniques old frame hung gar is know for and the close range power iron wire is meant to build....... (puts cat amongst the pigeons and runs off)

[David Jamieson]

Hung Fist can be used in pretty much all ranges but one.
It has no wrestling to speak of.

Not that it's a big stretch to learn a few tools in that as well anyway.
You can fight long or clinch with it. It depends on where you are comfortable.

If you adapt it for sport, it will be the same as all the rest really with a couple of small differences that people probably wouldn't notice much without actually understanding what they are looking at.

For instance, we hear quite often "It just looks like kickboxing", but does it really?

Observe stepping and you see training marks, observe entrance strategy and you see other hallmarks.

I think that people who say a style "looks like kickboxing" is missing understanding on the dynamics of a real fight and also the expression of the training when employed in that fashion.

For instance, a well trained Hung kuen practitioner will not lift his heel off the ground in kicking or driving forward striking, but will do so when using twisting or spiraling gings.

I think most people aren't aware of what they are looking at in a refined sense when this observation gets sung to loudly.

Lifting is good for raw core strength develop. raw strength and refined strength or functional strength are two different things/ Someone can be very strong in lifting and just crap at structure for delivering a solid punch. This happens and is the same fantasy of having power as the guy doing only sets thinks he has.

It's all gotta work together in making the big chalupa.

[Dragonzbane76]

I was not directing the comment about the form. I know the form myself and enjoy the tension and breathing as part of the form. My comment is directed at the spin " some people" put on very logic things to make it come off in a mystic manner. Hence the post above my earlier one.

[sanjuro_ronin]

always amazes me that the few (and i mean few) hung gar fighting clips out there tend to show the long arm stuff for the most part and not the close range power techniques old frame hung gar is know for and the close range power iron wire is meant to build....... (puts cat amongst the pigeons and runs off)

Well, one can argue that the long arm stuff is easier to pull off and spot, so...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I was not directing the comment about the form. I know the form myself and enjoy the tension and breathing as part of the form. My comment is directed at the spin " some people" put on very logic things to make it come off in a mystic manner. Hence the post above my earlier one.

Again, cultural trappings.
Simply that.
Some forget that the power that HK is know for in some circles comes from the gungs and specialized equipment training which is then "finished and polished" by the IW.

[Frost]

Well, one can argue that the long arm stuff is easier to pull off and spot, so...

One could also argue the long arm stuff is more practical and useful, thats why its easier to use and was adopted into the style.... :)

Only joking just wish there was more HG out there for us to see and judge, always liked doing it myself

[sanjuro_ronin]

One could also argue the long arm stuff is more practical and useful, thats why its easier to use and was adopted into the style.... :)

Only joking just wish there was more HG out there for us to see and judge, always liked doing it myself

What attracted me to HK fro the very beginning was that I could always feel the power in what I was doing, it was simple, basic and effective AND with the potential to be so much more ( That and the movie Executioners from Shaolin).
I've been exposed to 3 different types of HK and their core is basically the same.
I've seen people of all body types excel at HK too.

[Pork Chop]

Hung Fist can be used in pretty much all ranges but one.
It has no wrestling to speak of.


Are you talking ground grappling? Because it most definitely has take downs.

[PM]

Some forget that the power that HK is know for in some circles comes from the gungs and specialized equipment training which is then "finished and polished" by the IW.

exactly, EXACTLY!

[lance]

I was not directing the comment about the form. I know the form myself and enjoy the tension and breathing as part of the form. My comment is directed at the spin " some people" put on very logic things to make it come off in a mystic manner. Hence the post above my earlier one.

Dragonzbane , are you talking about my thread ? You mentioned the thread above you ' re earlier one .

[SteveLau]

So why is Iron Wire set considered so important for Hung Gar nowadays? So much so that it is considered an advanced set which characterizes Hung Gar.




In the book by Leung Tat said it all - The essence of Southern Shaolin internal work is found in Hung Gar. And the internal work of Hung Gar is fully expressed in the Iron Wire set. Internal training can make a person strong. So incorporating it into a fighting system will make the student a better fighter.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[TenTigers]

it's not fantasy or mysticism. TSK develops strength throughout the range of motion for each type of movement, which is then utilized within the twelve bridges. It connects the bridge to the body to the legs, and in doing so the student is made aware of these connections and alignments. Iron shirt is part and parcel and the internal organs and fascia are strengthened as well as part of this process.

[sanjuro_ronin]

it's not fantasy or mysticism. TSK develops strength throughout the range of motion for each type of movement, which is then utilized within the twelve bridges. It connects the bridge to the body to the legs, and in doing so the student is made aware of these connections and alignments. Iron shirt is part and parcel and the internal organs and fascia are strengthened as well as part of this process.

Agreed, the problem is when some use "archaic" and "poetic language" to describe things we can describe in "correct" terms that we use nowadays.
The old timers are excused from this because, well, they don't know any better.
Our and the current generations don't have that excuse.
A friend once asked why the TSK looks the way it does, that the moves don't seem practical so why strengthen them "along those lines' and I gave him your answer:
The TSK is a Hung Ga Set for Hung Ga practioner for Hung Ga moves ( 12 bridges and "killing hands").

[David Jamieson]

Are you talking ground grappling? Because it most definitely has take downs.

Yes, there are take downs. There is no wrestling in the style. No ground grappling although there are attacks that can be used against someone who is lying prone.