How about this kind of competition?

[Grumblegeezer]

We've all heard about old school bouts in Hong Kong and on the mainland fought on top of tables. And of course there is the cool, if unrealistic, table top fight scene in the movie Ip Man II. My old sifu spoke of training chi-sau that way, and from time to time we've all seen demos like that -- using strong square tables something like card tables, not tippy, round restaurant tables like in the movie, of course. Well, reading this bit on another thread got me wondering, "Why don't we set up actual competitions based on this?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean66
Sifu WKL: Some parts of the Wing Chun style are very useful, while others are not ideally suited to certain situations. All styles have their benefits and disadvantage. Say, Wing Chun can be used with great effect when you only have small space or fight at close range. Like the predecessors, when they exchanged skills it was on a very small platform. So back then you could not step too much backwards, so the platform made you have to keep a close distance.

Personally, I'd really like to see competitons set up like this. Set up a small, low platform about 5 ft. by 5 ft., have opponents start from opposite corners. You could use kicking, punching, elbows, knees, throws, or grappling, but if you go over the side, you lose. If both competitors go over, you'd reset on top. It could be done safely using low platforms ...say about 2 ft. off a floor padded with mats. It would be challenging and dramatic, and it would showcase the type of close fighting situation WC evolved to fight.

Has anybody actually promoted open competitions anything like this? I'm thinking WC might earn some real respect if they did. Any thoughts?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Why 5ft? why not 4 or 6 ?
If I recall the stories of those platforms, they were not that small at all, about 10 ft I think.
But when you look at how small 10 ft is with two people involved...

[sanjuro_ronin]

And just an FYI, many systems use "small areas" to train their inside game.
An example is boxing and MT for example that drill fighting in and out of the corners of the ring.

[Grumblegeezer]

4ft, 5ft., or 6ft.? I dont know. I just estimated based on a 5 x5 piece of tiled floor near my computer. The idea is the smallest space possible that would still allow two competitors to start off apart (not touching) and then engage. Anything much larger would defeat the purpose of being a unique and different format requiring very close range work.

As for boxers, yes, they do work in very tight spaces and they should be very good at this kind of competition... although it would be a new experience for them too as there are no ropes, just a drop off to the mat below. Other arts focusing on longer range techniques might have more trouble adapting.

Throwing could be tricky, since you could be dragged over the edge too, and the additional couple of feet down might mean that the thrower could end up also hitting the ground pretty hard. Grapplers and ground fighters should do well, unless they get dragged or rolled over the side and had to keep re-setting in the stand-up range again.

So back to my question. Has anybody tried this yet?

[YouKnowWho]

This kind of format will encounage you to push your opponent off stage and then land on top of him by using him as your soft landing pillow. It can cause injury especially when your opponent's spine is landed on the "edge" of the stage. That 2 feet off the ground is not necessary IMO.

[k gledhill]

Sounds like sumo...

[Sihing73]

I like the idea, but what if the person looks like the big guy in this pic? :D

[WC1277]

The reason that format was promoted was because an often ignored aspect of WC today. Don't push your opponent back whether in chi sao or fighting. You see it often, PB is a good example, but it's no good. There's a difference between pushing power and killing power. Stepping forward with your attack will push the opponent. Stepping in with your structure and then attacking will keep the opponent stationary. Small difference in appearance but huge in application. If you're truly "intercepting" their attack then they shouldn't be moving back.....

[k gledhill]

The reason that format was promoted was because an often ignored aspect of WC today. Don't push your opponent back whether in chi sao or fighting. You see it often, PB is a good example, but it's no good. There's a difference between pushing power and killing power. Stepping forward with your attack will push the opponent. Stepping in with your structure and then attacking will keep the opponent stationary. Small difference in appearance but huge in application. If you're truly "intercepting" their attack then they shouldn't be moving back.....

Ummm, lets agree that there are coexisting alternative universes and move on....:D

[LoneTiger108]

Has anybody actually promoted open competitions anything like this? I'm thinking WC might earn some real respect if they did. Any thoughts?

Personally I don't advocate any form of fighting competition with Wing Chun as it's a little too complicated to satisfy all lineages of the system because, for some reason, we all interact differently.

I liked the older Sansau competitions on the Leitai (which is what you are describing) Truth be told, this smaller Leitai 'idea', from my research, originated from the small stone built 'talking tables' found in the villages where people would address the locals. Like a 'soap box' or 'speakers corner' set up.

Raised only so the audience can see. No other reason. Exactly as a boxing ring.

What I am saying is that it isn't specific to our system but it is a niche idea! Riddled with issues though, but you should ask someone who is actually promoting competitions now, like Alan Orr.

[Yoshiyahu]

In the past when I was first learning We trained this way. But i was a teenager then.

we would actually spar and do chi sau on table tops. Not really like in the movies...but what ever was avaiable...

At a local park they would have heavy park tables with benches we would fight on.

We werent intent on pushing someone off..Just getting in alot strikes an controlling or movement and manurervaing as to not fall off.

But we like teens then. thinking we were invincilbe...So the idea of real damage that could have happen to us we didnt take into consideration...I mean me an this one guy would fight on walls, on beams, on steps, on tables, on stages, in the grass, in the rain, in the snow, at night, etc etc...It was something we did all the time at any given place...we looked for new places to fight...We didnt implent throws and take downs on the benches and tables but we did do some pretty hard sparring in those days.


now i just do chi sau with a buddy of mines on a elevated sewer cover...its about two feet off the ground maybe a little more...its about four square feet no more than five.

[Grumblegeezer]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1162312]Personally I don't advocate any form of fighting competition with Wing Chun as it's a little too complicated to satisfy all lineages of the system because, for some reason, we all interact differently.
QUOTE]

Why would you want to limit it to WC? I'm just proposing a format that might showcase infighting in an intersting way to watch ...that also, as you pointed out, builds on the history of Chinese boxing.

Kevin had a good point that if you didn't set up the rules right, it might end up looking like sumo. Maybe score it by rounds, something like a boxing match, and falling off the platform should only result in a loss of a few points... whatever.

Anyway, from the responses so far I gather nobody's tried this yet except, like Yoshi, training with friends.

[WingChunABQ]

We used to do lots of chi sao on a plum blossom pile (an arrangement of poles sticking about 3 feet out of the ground). It was great for training balance, stepping patterns and power applications, and if you mis-stepped, you could enjoy the feeling of a skinned shin.

[Vajramusti]

We used to do lots of chi sao on a plum blossom pile (an arrangement of poles sticking about 3 feet out of the ground). It was great for training balance, stepping patterns and power applications, and if you mis-stepped, you could enjoy the feeling of a skinned shin.
------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember that from Las Cruces, NM days

[anerlich]

So back to my question. Has anybody tried this yet?

Every sumotori since the year dot.

[k gledhill]

The classic table scene from Prodigal son (http://youtu.be/LYOttvUOS5o)

[LoneTiger108]

Anyway, from the responses so far I gather nobody's tried this yet except, like Yoshi, training with friends.

I didn't say I hadn't tried it! But we also had numerous methods to experiment with including low plum flower posts like...


We used to do lots of chi sao on a plum blossom pile (an arrangement of poles sticking about 3 feet out of the ground).

[Grumblegeezer]

I didn't say I hadn't tried it! But we also had numerous methods to experiment with including low plum flower posts like...

OK, you tried it... but did you like it?

And about those Plum-Flower Posts, how does that hold up with WC footwork? I always wondered about that. It seems like stepping from post to post would demand a totally different kind of stepping than the dragging step we train so hard to acheive in my lineage. Although, it was supposedly something people did way back at the dawn of WC... maybe when it was more like southern Shaolin?

As for the platforms, maybe I'll go out and get some cinder blocks and plywood and give it a go just for fun. With my arthritic ankles I think I'll skip the plum flower posts. Don't need to mess up my legs again.

[wtxs]

In the past when I was first learning We trained this way. But i was a teenager then.

we would actually spar and do chi sau on table tops. Not really like in the movies...but what ever was avaiable...

At a local park they would have heavy park tables with benches we would fight on.

We werent intent on pushing someone off..Just getting in alot strikes an controlling or movement and manurervaing as to not fall off.

But we like teens then. thinking we were invincilbe...So the idea of real damage that could have happen to us we didnt take into consideration...I mean me an this one guy would fight on walls, on beams, on steps, on tables, on stages, in the grass, in the rain, in the snow, at night, etc etc...It was something we did all the time at any given place...we looked for new places to fight...We didnt implent throws and take downs on the benches and tables but we did do some pretty hard sparring in those days.


now i just do chi sau with a buddy of mines on a elevated sewer cover...its about two feet off the ground maybe a little more...its about four square feet no more than five.


My my my Yoshi ... or is it me me me? ;)

[Eric_H]

We've all heard about old school bouts in Hong Kong and on the mainland fought on top of tables. And of course there is the cool, if unrealistic, table top fight scene in the movie Ip Man II. My old sifu spoke of training chi-sau that way, and from time to time we've all seen demos like that -- using strong square tables something like card tables, not tippy, round restaurant tables like in the movie, of course. Well, reading this bit on another thread got me wondering, "Why don't we set up actual competitions based on this?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean66
Sifu WKL: Some parts of the Wing Chun style are very useful, while others are not ideally suited to certain situations. All styles have their benefits and disadvantage. Say, Wing Chun can be used with great effect when you only have small space or fight at close range. Like the predecessors, when they exchanged skills it was on a very small platform. So back then you could not step too much backwards, so the platform made you have to keep a close distance.

Personally, I'd really like to see competitons set up like this. Set up a small, low platform about 5 ft. by 5 ft., have opponents start from opposite corners. You could use kicking, punching, elbows, knees, throws, or grappling, but if you go over the side, you lose. If both competitors go over, you'd reset on top. It could be done safely using low platforms ...say about 2 ft. off a floor padded with mats. It would be challenging and dramatic, and it would showcase the type of close fighting situation WC evolved to fight.

Has anybody actually promoted open competitions anything like this? I'm thinking WC might earn some real respect if they did. Any thoughts?

There are a number of WC groups in AZ and aside from a few personal issues here and there, most get along pretty well. Why not invite some of the boys out to see if you can get something like this going to see what would be a good idea and what wouldn't? Better to get a few heads together, put some hands on it and see what comes out.

It might be really fun or "that strange thing we did that one time" who knows. :cool:

[Yoshiyahu]

My my my Yoshi ... or is it me me me? ;)

lol glad i could make someone smile today!

[JPinAZ]

There are a number of WC groups in AZ and aside from a few personal issues here and there, most get along pretty well. Why not invite some of the boys out to see if you can get something like this going to see what would be a good idea and what wouldn't? Better to get a few heads together, put some hands on it and see what comes out.

It might be really fun or "that strange thing we did that one time" who knows. :cool:

I'd be up for that!

[Yoshiyahu]

I'd be up for that!

tell me how it goes!

[wtxs]

There are a number of WC groups in AZ and aside from a few personal issues here and there, most get along pretty well. Why not invite some of the boys out to see if you can get something like this going to see what would be a good idea and what wouldn't? Better to get a few heads together, put some hands on it and see what comes out.

It might be really fun or "that strange thing we did that one time" who knows. :cool:


tell me how it goes!

Hey man, why wait, this might the chance of a life time to showcase your awesome WC skill in an friendly and non threatening setting, and I'm even willing to throw in a couple of $$ to help with the bus fare.:p

[LoneTiger108]

OK, you tried it... but did you like it?

Of course I did! And still take on the challenge today if need be ;)


And about those Plum-Flower Posts, how does that hold up with WC footwork? I always wondered about that.

Very good question! My simple answer is, with what I have seen from a minority of Wing Chun schools, it is a very different method! probably more familiar to those with pole or knife experience. From my research, the schools with the Plum Flower within their logo/branding tend to teach a method of sorts akin to what I know.


It seems like stepping from post to post would demand a totally different kind of stepping than the dragging step we train so hard to acheive in my lineage.

And you drag your leg because?


Although, it was supposedly something people did way back at the dawn of WC... maybe when it was more like southern Shaolin?

Possibly, but who really knows?

From stories I have heard, our lineage is connected to Shaolin through various people, including Ng Mui and Jee Shim (both only Folklore figures really imho) Ng Mui, for example, is noted as the creator of Plum Flower Fist in almost all famous canons tracing Southern Shaolin, which is also where the stepping method originates.

Soooo many clips on YouTube that mention PF I couldn't pick one to share lol!! Seems to be big in Choy Lay Fut and Tong Long systems...

[Yoshiyahu]

Hey man, why wait, this might the chance of a life time to showcase your awesome WC skill in an friendly and non threatening setting, and I'm even willing to throw in a couple of $$ to help with the bus fare.:p

that would be great...thanks for the endorsement!