Hung Gar Theory

[Baritsumaster]

I'm putting this down, not as a manifesto, but a theory I would like to have discussed by Hung Gar-ists of all schools. Granted that Lam Sai Wing was known to alter and add forms during his lifetime, but would he have done so during Wong Fei Hung's lifetime? Would that not have been perceived as an insult? I refer to the three books LSW set down around 1917. Logic would suggest that these forms would have been as close to WFH's as possible in order to garner his support. I would even wonder if anyone would have accepted them without some public acknowledgement from his Master that these forms were genuine. Thoughts?
And please, this is no attempt to suggest that one school is better than another.

[jdhowland]

... Granted that Lam Sai Wing was known to alter and add forms during his lifetime, but would he have done so during Wong Fei Hung's lifetime? Would that not have been perceived as an insult?

...some public acknowledgement from his Master that these forms were genuine.

I think the concept of what was genuine is more a modern, conservationist concern. I'm not sure that it was a big concern then. As long as the training was good and the teacher is legitimate the headmaster may be satisfied with changes to the curriculum. No school developed in isolation from other elements.

Perhaps WFH saw it as a natural evolution.

When I started kung fu training I had the idea that the sets were sacred and unalterable (this idea is still passed on in some karate lines). I soon learned otherwise. Students were originally taught different curricula depending on their needs or the needs of the instructor. The result is still the same lineage, just different methods.

Two quotes from two of my Chinese teachers:

"Every generation changes it a little."

"Once you learn something, it's yours."

[PM]

- the books were not published in 1917, but in 1926 (FHSYK), 1936 (GJFFK) and 195? (TSK). common misconception, written ages ago and repeated again and again. none of the books was written by Lam Saiwing of course.

- we westerners care about "tradition" much more than the old timers - they cared if it WORKS for them and their students. every generation changed a lot, both Wong Feihung, Lam Saiwing and others

[sanjuro_ronin]

Traditional MA of the past had more in common with modern sport combat guys or security/military personnel than they did with the typical self-proclaimed TMA.
Sure some were also doctors or even scholars but most were not.
Those that did MA as a career were typically security or military.
Those that did MA and had "full time" jobs were villagers or merchants.
Nothing other than the principles of any system were set in stone and even THOSE could be revised for the individual.
I think that is soemthing that we tend to forget but it seems that the MA teachers of the past had no issues in customzing their art and their forms to the individual student.

[lance]

- the books were not published in 1917, but in 1926 (FHSYK), 1936 (GJFFK) and 195? (TSK). common misconception, written ages ago and repeated again and again. none of the books was written by Lam Saiwing of course.

- we westerners care about "tradition" much more than the old timers - they cared if it WORKS for them and their students. every generation changed a lot, both Wong Feihung, Lam Saiwing and others PM , so if Lum sai wing
did ' nt write these books , who wrote it then ? the resources that I found out was that Donald Hamby Sifu who learned from both Lum Chun Fai and GM Bucksam Kong translated the chinese translation into english , with the help of
Lum Chun Fai sifu . Unless what you ' re really saying is Lam sai wing just narrated what he wanted in the materials while someone else wrote the materials for him ? Well PM you can explain to me and the people of this forum thread .

[Chris m]

Always thought the actual writing in the three books was done by Chu Yu Jai, one of Lam si-tai-gung's to-dai and writer of the original Wong Fei Hung novels...

As for people talking about Traditional arts and MMA, some of Hung Gar's techniques are for ripping off peoples balls, attacking the throat-or in Hak Fu Jow's case BOTH-or sticking your fingers into people's eyes, but if you try to use these techniques in a Ring (MMA or otherwise), you'd be disqualified, as MMA is a sport....genuine kung fu is nasty stuff....amazing how fast people stop fighting when their victim tries to tear off their nut-sack, speaking from experience...put Hung Gar in a ring and it's emasculated immediately.

[PM]

who wrote the books? Jyu Yujai, Jeung Sibiu, Lei Saifai and others

i like the GJFFK and FHSYK book, although there are many typos and a lot of inaccurate info, thy are still very interesting and useful. Tit Si Kyun book is almost useless (the main text - the forewords are interesting), it was written after Lam Saiwing has already passed away.

student of Don Hamby sifu has translated the books, but not with the help of Lam Chun Fai and not the original books, but the new edition with completely new (ie. completely different) text written in 199? by Leung Daat, non-Hung Kyun practitioner and basicaly a fraud - that is what i have been told on Gwongjau by many local Hung Kyun sifus.

i have been working with the original texts since 1997, and have discussed them extensively with my teachers in Hong Kong, my sihings and other masters in China, so trust me on this a bit:-)

[sanjuro_ronin]

who wrote the books? Jyu Yujai, Jeung Sibiu, Lei Saifai and others

i like the GJFFK and FHSYK book, although there are many typos and a lot of inaccurate info, thy are still very interesting and useful. Tit Si Kyun book is almost useless (the main text - the forewords are interesting), it was written after Lam Saiwing has already passed away.

student of Don Hamby sifu has translated the books, but not with the help of Lam Chun Fai and not the original books, but the new edition with completely new (ie. completely different) text written in 199? by Leung Daat, non-Hung Kyun practitioner and basicaly a fraud - that is what i have been told on Gwongjau by many local Hung Kyun sifus.

i have been working with the original texts since 1997, and have discussed them extensively with my teachers in Hong Kong, my sihings and other masters in China, so trust me on this a bit:-)

Well...one wonders how much complete info was ever put in MA training manuals of the past.
I have heard a mirad of tales about the TSK book, how the moves are out of order, missing parts, incorrect descriptions and sounds, etc.
And yes, from what I have seen based on my OWN experience that MAY seem to be the case.
The people that put out the book don't seem to have any issues putting it out and Sifu Hamby is a very highly regarded Hung Ga Sifu under Bucksman Kong
and I have seen his TSK on DVD and well, it is like the TSK of the book ( as much as one can compare any DVD with that book).
Of course one thing that I have found is that there is more than one version of the TSK, so...

[SouthernGungFu]

Donald Hamby Sifu is the real deal. Nice, knowledgeable and nimble. Only a fool would want to tangle with him. And a few fools recently have in their forums and through email. Eh Mercer?!?

[PM]

of course Don is the real deal, that's not my point. All I'm saying is that according to the people who I spoke with, Leung Daat rewrote the books almost completely out of his own imagination (using the original pictures), without so much as ever having actually learned Hung Gar

[SteveLau]

would he have done so during Wong Fei Hung's lifetime?

According to the time of these books were published, the handsets had been developed as such years before. Wong Fei Hung passed away in ~1925, and Lam Sai Wing passed away in ~1943. So WFH should aware of changes were made to the techniques he had taught LSW. LSW had his own school in Hong Kong and Guangzhou City when WFH was very much alive. It is not necessary wrong or being perceived as an insult to the teacher when the student alters, and adds stuff to what he has learnt from the teacher. It was also quite possible that LSW had his teacher's blessing when he made the changes.


KC
Hong Kong

[once ronin]

KC,

These times these masters like Wong Fei Hung, Lam Sai Wing, Chan Hon Chung would turn their face black should their student change or add forms to their curriculum.

Chan Hon Chung told me this 1st hand and so did his senior student Master Cheung.

[David Jamieson]

KC,

These times these masters like Wong Fei Hung, Lam Sai Wing, Chan Hon Chung would turn their face black should their student change or add forms to their curriculum.

Chan Hon Chung told me this 1st hand and so did his senior student Master Cheung.

why? All is in a state of flux. How we duel is different now from then. How we engage in sport combat is different now.

Why would someone disparage the growth of a system and insist it fall further into obscurity?

I know this for sure. The shape of Kung Fu changes when you move beyond the form and into the practical use of the art.

[Golden Arms]

Depends on the system. I agree most of the time that applies.

[Chris m]

Without innovation in Hung Gar, we wouldnt have Kung Gee, or Fu Hok, or Sap Ying, or Mo Ying Gerk, or Fu Hok Kuen Chak, or Tit Sin Kuen....

My teacher says that usually once every other generation, one master-usually lineage holder-is innovative, and the next generation is Square Minded...although BOTH Wong Fei Hung and Lam Sai Wing were open minded, and both introduced new methods into Hung Gar...my si-gung Chan Hon Chung was close-mind but his Sau To Kong Pui Wai is the opposite and introduced Fung Gar into His Hung Gar training.

[CLFNole]

Fung Gar, is that a lesser known family style? Is it from the Guongzhou area? Just curious as I have not heard of that one but I am sure there are numerous family style names.

[SouthernGungFu]

Without innovation in Hung Gar, we wouldnt have Kung Gee, or Fu Hok, or Sap Ying, or Mo Ying Gerk, or Fu Hok Kuen Chak, or Tit Sin Kuen....

My teacher says that usually once every other generation, one master-usually lineage holder-is innovative, and the next generation is Square Minded...although BOTH Wong Fei Hung and Lam Sai Wing were open minded, and both introduced new methods into Hung Gar...my si-gung Chan Hon Chung was close-mind but his Sau To Kong Pui Wai is the opposite and introduced Fung Gar into His Hung Gar training.

So true. Lum Jo brought a lot of forms into the system. Sam Yin Kuen, Bung Bo and Pek Kwar Do to name a few and even created the popular 2 man forms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1AoLnTI4JQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUf5-2JqFM0

[Chris m]

In your opinion Lum Jo created the two man forms, while I am sure he did create some, the Fu Hok Kuen Chak-according to Lam Sai Wing's final disciple Chan Hon Chung-was the work of his si-fu and si-gung....and I will defer to his judgement on that one.

As for the other forms mentioned...we dont have them in Hung Kuen Jing Chung...but there's no problem with a teacher adding things.....our kwoon has several of the Malaysian Hung Gar lineage in our curriculum-including the Hung Gar version of Luk Dim Boon Gwun....all adds to the flavour.

[SouthernGungFu]

In your opinion Lum Jo created the two man forms, while I am sure he did create some, the Fu Hok Kuen Chak-according to Lam Sai Wing's final disciple Chan Hon Chung-was the work of his si-fu and si-gung....and I will defer to his judgement on that one..

http://www.hungkuen.com/forms.htm

Sparring Forms
• Gung Gee Doy Da - originally choreographed by Lam Sai Wing
• Fu Hok Seung Ying Doy Da - originally choreographed by Lam Cho
• Seung Tao Kwan Doy Da - originally choreographed by Lam Cho
• Ng Lung Ba Gwa Gwan Doy Da - Tan Tao Kwan Doy Da
• Darn Do Chin Cheong - originally choreographed by Lam Cho
• Seung Do Chin Cheong - originally choreographed by Lam Cho
• Kwan Do Doy Cheong - originally choreographed by Lam Cho
• Seung Bei Sau Doy Cheong - originally choreographed by Lam Cho

[SouthernGungFu]

As for the other forms mentioned...we dont have them in Hung Kuen Jing Chung...but there's no problem with a teacher adding things.....our kwoon has several of the Malaysian Hung Gar lineage in our curriculum-including the Hung Gar version of Luk Dim Boon Gwun....all adds to the flavour.

You wrote this a year ago on the BANG BOU - Lam Chun Sing YouTube video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1AoLnTI4JQ



Why does Hung Kuen need anything from Northern Mantis, Don't remember hearing Wong Fei Hung or Lam Sai Wing needing to use it???

popsjnr 1 year ago

[Chris m]

It's a question isnt it cheesedip, rogue warrior etc....I asked a question....WHY???
I never got an answer to it though.

As for your list....I dont believe the two man Fu Hok form comes from Lum Jo...if you do...I am happy for you....

[SouthernGungFu]

http://www.woma.tv/movies/1TT/kung-fu-seni.html

Are these your classmates doing the 2 man Fu Hok and Pek Kwar Do? Great stuff. Well, painful actually. No wonder they removed the other video.

I cannot seem to find the video of your school with the 2 man staff set. It has been removed from You Tube as it shows forms learned from the lineage he continues to belittle.

IRON WIRE!!! Misrepresent...

http://www.woma.tv/movies/50/jim-uglow-hung-gar-iron-wire.html

Nice things mercer, zappone, yelverton and their astute businessman teacher say about other lineages

http://hungkuen-jingchung.com/mybb/showthread.php?tid=381

http://hungkuen-jingchung.com/mybb/showthread.php?tid=343

[SouthernGungFu]

It's a question isnt it cheesedip, rogue warrior etc....I asked a question....WHY???
I never got an answer to it though.


Yes you did. It follows...

dear @popsjnr thanks for the question.

this form added [plus some more] by Lam Cho sikung to give more speed and explosion to our family style; also to make it more competitive and to suit on the times. example: simply compare boxing early - middle and late 19th century....

regards sifu Kostas Tsoligkas

[Chris m]

Our video was removed by the poster due to the bile filled rubbish a guy called cheesedik posted nonstop on it....same guy who challenged me....and then ran away???same guy who had an avatar of my arse (?,?) must have enjoyed looking at it with his busy right hand eh??

[Chris m]

As for guys doing broadsword, two man pole etc....they were taught to Chan si-gung by Lam Sai Wing so of course we do them....check out my thread Mahjong si-fu on Hung Kuen Jing Chung...U will love it

[TenTigers]

many Sifus, through their own personal experiences and evolution, will add or subtract, alter, refine their system. If you are doing it exactly like previous generations, then your system is dead.(within reason)
In my experience in the Tang Fong line, I have found that each Sifu plays it a bit differently. I have worked with practitioners/Sifus from several lines (Yuen Ling, Chan Tai-Hing, Lao Ke Tong, Ho Lap Tien, Chow Wing-Tak) and each brought something to the table. Each line while maintaining the theories, concepts, form of Hung-Ga, emphasized different things-softer, more fluid, more active footwork, explosive movement, close range, long range, power, speed, etc. Each teacher is different, so they emphasize different aspects. This is a natural evolution.
When a system has everything etched in stone, it, like stone, is dead.

[sanjuro_ronin]

many Sifus, through their own personal experiences and evolution, will add or subtract, alter, refine their system. If you are doing it exactly like previous generations, then your system is dead.(within reason)
In my experience in the Tang Fong line, I have found that each Sifu plays it a bit differently. I have worked with practitioners/Sifus from several lines (Yuen Ling, Chan Tai-Hing, Lao Ke Tong, Ho Lap Tien, Chow Wing-Tak) and each brought something to the table. Each line while maintaining the theories, concepts, form of Hung-Ga, emphasized different things-softer, more fluid, more active footwork, explosive movement, close range, long range, power, speed, etc. Each teacher is different, so they emphasize different aspects. This is a natural evolution.
When a system has everything etched in stone, it, like stone, is dead.

TT has potato-sacked the correct.

[SouthernGungFu]

Our video was removed by the poster due to the bile filled rubbish a guy called cheesedik posted nonstop on it....same guy who challenged me....and then ran away???same guy who had an avatar of my arse (?,?) must have enjoyed looking at it with his busy right hand eh??


Last time I saw the video I did not see such posts, you had removed them. Other then making the video not allow comments like you did on the misleading video titled Iron Wire that had nothing to with Iron Wire but kept it on YouTube. More misrepresentations from your school and your astute businessman for a teacher.

I believe it was removed as it was proof you had forms from from the lineage you bashed and continue to bash in the so called "Mahjong si-fu" (Lum Jo) thread you wrote to kindly about, eh Mercer?

[SouthernGungFu]

As for guys doing broadsword, two man pole etc....they were taught to Chan si-gung by Lam Sai Wing so of course we do them....check out my thread Mahjong si-fu on Hung Kuen Jing Chung...U will love it

I dont believe the broadsword, two man pole etc comes from Chan si-gung by Lam Sai Wing ...if you do...I am happy for you....



Read these comments re the broadsword...

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=jUf5-2JqFM0




Still waiting on all those family statements you promised 6 months ago! LOL. Now you cry when you feel like releasing them? Nice cover. You know you will NEVER come up with them. Signed and dated by the lineage holder now, not something you conjured up and put on your forums.

http://naamkyun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1625

[Chris m]

The video Hung Gar Iron Wire isnt mistitled...Chan Hon Chung explains that the Iron Wire process starts in Kung Gee, develops in Fu Hok and Ng Ying and Sap Ying, then finishes in Tit Sin Kuen...that video shows the start of Iron Wire....the Iron Wire form isnt mentioned

[Chris m]

As for the youtube comments...again Chan Hon Chung informed my teacher about the origins of those forms...and if I have to believe someone it's going to be Lam Sai Wing's Sau To

The family statements will appear when we decide it's time

[sanjuro_ronin]

Keep your personal issues to yourselves guys and keep this thread on track.

[Golden Arms]

The way you guys keep going on and on, you guys sound like Hung Gar's group of whining b*tches. There will always be lineage differences...leave it be and focus on your martial art.

I understand being angry at fakers, but differences in lineage are just that, differences, nothing more.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The way you guys keep going on and on, you guys sound like Hung Gar's group of whining b*tches. There will always be lineage differences...leave it be and focus on your martial art.

I understand being angry at fakers, but differences in lineage are just that, differences, nothing more.

And I add to this be reminding all that this is NOT the wing chun forum.

[Chris m]

Think I will change this post as cheesedik...I mean southerngungfu.....is copying everything I write...no ideas of his own...if your going to edit your posts to avoid being banned just shows what a little coward you are....dont challenge me again on this forum too....coz I am happy to cross hands with you..

[SouthernGungFu]

I too apologise to my fellow Hung Gar practitioners about this spat....but that's what happens when you argue with immature "people" who spread hate and lies towards other lineages. More misrepresentations from Chris Mercer aka popsjnr. Poor guy mercer is annoyed. Read his last post! What a loser. I am no coward, just writing the facts. I am not afraid of you or your boyfriend either. I have the original post when you challenged me. Just find my blog. And you are going to do what about it? Your cover is blown, you are all talk and your school is ****.

I have no problems with that until someone continues to belittle my Si Gung and lineage while creating slanderous posts in various forums. ie "check out my thread Mahjong si-fu (Lum Jo) on Hung Kuen Jing Chung" by popsjnr, jim uglow, pathetic chris mercer, angelo zappone and martin yelverton. And then they challenge to fight them. What honorable chaps.

http://hungkuen-jingchung.com/mybb/showthread.php?tid=381

http://hungkuen-jingchung.com/mybb/showthread.php?tid=343

You get no respect from me and 1000's of others with the 2 above threads in Jim Uglows Schools forum.

Chris Mercer, isnt this the post you made on your Iron Wire You Tube Video (they were since removed) challenging me to a fight starting off this 'spat'. I only defended myself. Funny how you forget the details when they are NOT in your favour.

Oh Wodger you get so angwy dont you...poor baby dont cry!! Does your nappy need changing have you **** YOURSELF??
Dont like the replies dont send me emails then you ****ing *****.? Who the **** do you think you are?? If you want trouble you **** come to our club and i will spark you out!!
Unit 11 Kimberley Works
1st floor Billet Road Walthamstow
London E17 5DZ
I will be there tonight 20:00hrs you dont come then your just a coward aint you?? Can? you see how scared I am eh??
But you wont do that coz your a cowardly chicken**** **** arent you???...as for sucking **** I leave that to you...bet you LOVE the taste of man-fat eh??
**** off and die *****

[once ronin]

Size and experience will cause differences in lineage.

I cannot see Lam sai Wing at 5'10'' 230 plus pounds doing forms the same as a 5'5'' Lam Jo 120 or so pounds.

The power and effort use will not be the same.

Also the curriculum will tell who really learned form who. Technics in the 2 man forms will show it is from Lam Jo.

I was told by Chan Hon Chung many years back, Lam Sai Wing saw Chan Hon Chung doing the lau Gar form. In a rage Lam Sai Wing yelled at Lam Jo "what is this"

In Lam Sai Wing's School, should any student talk about another kung fu system, Lam Sai Wing will attack you.

So, someone previous mentioned Chan Hon Chung is closed minded, he got it from his teacher.

[SouthernGungFu]

Size and experience will cause differences in lineage.

Also the curriculum will tell who really learned form who. Technics in the 2 man forms will show it is from Lam Jo.


I totally agree.




I was told by Chan Hon Chung many years back, Lam Sai Wing saw Chan Hon Chung doing the lau Gar form. In a rage Lam Sai Wing yelled at Lam Jo "what is this"

Too funny.




In Lam Sai Wing's School, should any student talk about another kung fu system, Lam Sai Wing will attack you.


My how things have changed.

[lance]

I'm putting this down, not as a manifesto, but a theory I would like to have discussed by Hung Gar-ists of all schools. Granted that Lam Sai Wing was known to alter and add forms during his lifetime, but would he have done so during Wong Fei Hung's lifetime? Would that not have been perceived as an insult? I refer to the three books LSW set down around 1917. Logic would suggest that these forms would have been as close to WFH's as possible in order to garner his support. I would even wonder if anyone would have accepted them without some public acknowledgement from his Master that these forms were genuine. Thoughts?
And please, this is no attempt to suggest that one school is better than another.


I would ' nt know too , all I know is that there are different lineages of hung ga out there , the moves of the hung ga set for the other lineages are different too . But the applications are the same . There is Ha Say Fu hung gar and the canton hung gar . In the Ha Say Fu hung ga the animal forms are all individualized , as for the canton hung ga the five animals are all combined together . And the sets of the canton hung ga are all seperated too . And there ' s the Tang Fung hung ga too , the tang fung hung ga the gung gee fook fu set is in 2 - parts , instead of one like the sets GM Lum Jo teaches . Like Sifu Wing Lam his gung gee fook fu set is a combination of GM Lum jo and Chiu Kao Sifu . So ! yeah ! every hung ga lineages their set is different .

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys need to stop this personal feud in this forum, got it?
Last warning, next time you both get banned.

[David Jamieson]

^This

(Like 190 lb hawks, we digitally circle above you) ;)

[Neeros]

I was told by Chan Hon Chung many years back, Lam Sai Wing saw Chan Hon Chung doing the lau Gar form. In a rage Lam Sai Wing yelled at Lam Jo "what is this"

In Lam Sai Wing's School, should any student talk about another kung fu system, Lam Sai Wing will attack you.


Where did you hear this from? Seems quite contrary to the behavior of a master of the Shaolin arts.

[once ronin]

All senior student of Chan Hon Chung can confirm this.

I did mention I got this from Chan Hon chung himself.

Master Cheung Yee Keung is in Prince Edward.

He is master Chan's senior student.

Here's a video of him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8eOiO4yP6E&feature=related

[Vajramusti]

And I add to this be reminding all that this is NOT the wing chun forum.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


??????why don't the moderators clean up the wing chun forum?

[PM]

i also confirm what once ronin says - Lam Saiwing was not happy to see the students/grandstudents practice the sets he did not teach, eg. Lau Ga Kyun.

[David Jamieson]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


??????why don't the moderators clean up the wing chun forum?

Well, it's kind of hard to walk into the middle of an all out brawl mostly... ;)

[Vajramusti]

Well, it's kind of hard to walk into the middle of an all out brawl mostly... ;)
---------------------------------------------------------------
With some more moderation-kittens in disguise.

joy chaudhuri

[SouthernGungFu]

DUCK! There goes a shoe flying by smacking pathetic Chris Mercer - POPSJNR in the face...