Nice drills from China

[mooyingmantis]

Xiaoyao posted some nice clips of Taiji Tanglangquan training drills on YouTube.

In the clips Will does the drills with Master Zhou Zhendong and fellow students.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9aCgerlLuk&feature=context&context=C408d5b8ADvjVQa1PpcFOeXG4AjePPT-c5D-wdKemvS2StCfFVTvw=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHY2hP8xIHA&context=C408d5b8ADvjVQa1PpcFOeXG4AjePPT-c5D-wdKemvS2StCfFVTvw=

I will be going to Yantai this summer to train with Master Zhou and hook up with Will and Boris. I can't wait!

[mooyingmantis]

Seeing various mantis drills is far better than seeing different forms. Its probably the most important aspect of mantis training.

Yes, I think you are right on target. I like memorizing forms to remember the moves and principles. But I think drills are the best method for training before non-resisting and resisting opponents.

I think it was Sanjuro Ronin who said in another thread in the Kung Fu forum that forms can be looked at as a certificate when one has mastered the drills and principles of the form. I like that idea!

From what Will and Niki have told me, Master Zhou emphasizes the two person drills along with each form.

[xiao yao]

Who's Boris?

[xiao yao]

Yes, we have a lot of drills within each form for training specific "skills".

Somebody commented on one clip they were going to teach these drills to their students, but without hands on instruction, how can you know what you are doing?
You can see the movement, but you cant feel what kind of power is being used, or correct shen fa, especially with baggy clothes etc

They are only meant as a reference, not a teaching aid.

[mooyingmantis]

Somebody commented on one clip they were going to teach these drills to their students, but without hands on instruction, how can you know what you are doing?
You can see the movement, but you cant feel what kind of power is being used, or correct shen fa, especially with baggy clothes etc.

I also saw that comment on YouTube under your video.

However, the lulu and fanche techniques/principles are taught in: Taiji Tanglangquan, Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan, Mimen Tanglangquan and Qixing Tanglangquan. They are very common techniques featured in many mantis forms. So any instructor of any of these family's should be able to apply the drill you demonstrated with their own family's shenfa.


Who's Boris?

Boris is an internet friend. He is known as swordmaestre on YouTube. His instructor is a friend of Master Zhou. He said he would pop over to the park to meet us one day while I am there.

[-N-]

So any instructor of any of these family's should be able to apply the drill you demonstrated [...]

Yep, if someone knows Mantis, they should have no problem to do so. Or even to develop their own drills on the fly as needed, depending on what the student needs to improve.

[xiao yao]

I see from Boris videos he train liu he. What is his shifus name? It would be cool to meet another westerner who trains here.


I know most mantis styles have similar drills, so there is no need to be copying drills from youtube clips. Like I said, you need hands on instruction

[mooyingmantis]

I see from Boris videos he train liu he. What is his shifus name? It would be cool to meet another westerner who trains here.

Will,
I do not know if he trains liuhe tanglangquan or not. He has uploaded many mantis videos to YouTube. In one video he states that his instructor is Cheng Xian Ming. He never mentioned the name of his instructor to me and I didn't ask, since I figured that I wouldn't know him anyways.

[xiao yao]

Come to think of it, I think I met Boris at a forms competition before. He performed Luan Jie.

[MeiHuaBR]

To be honest, I don't see a problem in post videos of drills like these. And no problem about somebody copying those also. Today, with the internet, is much easier to search through information, including pirate material. I even have a theory that it even help the good professionals to get more students. Why? Let me try to explain it.

You want to learn TCMA, so go to the first school in your neighborhood. There you began learning from a guy that got everything from the internet. So you have a retail curriculum. But as you advance, begin to search in the net for more material of your style, them you begin to ask questions. When this starts, usually comes a fake history about how he learned from some random monk and is the only one that knows his lineage.

Them you keep searching and talking to other people. So you begin to see many similarities. When this happen, you can always send a email, a youtube question or even a post in this forum. If you realize that you are being foolished, you can accomodate or begin to search for a real teacher. And your older one, looses your respect and indications to friends that could go there.

All could be avoided if this teacher just said in the beggining: "Yeah, I learned from videos." It would probably drive away most of his students, but would keep some loyal ones.

So, more videos from real practioneers in the internet, bigger the chances the fake ones didn't hold the lies for much long.

Personally, I like to search for new drills in youtube and try them. It's always a pleasure to see some different views and experiences.

[xiao yao]

Good points Meihuabr

It doesnt bother me massively, otherwise I wouldnt put clips on there in the first place.

Anyway, from all the positive feedback Ive got, it makes me feel glad after several years of searching in China, Ive finally found a good teacher.

[xiao yao]

Does anyone train a drill called la feng shou?

Ive just started learning it. Its in someways similar to taichi push hands or wing chun sticky hands - a freeflow partner excercise for sensitivity and reaction

two partners face each other. one punches, the other uses a hook hand to stop it at the wrist and the other hand on the elbow pinning their arm to their body, then punches with the front hand. the partner then blocks the same way and it goes back and forth, adding in various attacks or changes at will

sorry my explanations a bit crappy, il try to get a video clip in the next few days

[mooyingmantis]

Does anyone train a drill called la feng shou?

Ive just started learning it. Its in someways similar to taichi push hands or wing chun sticky hands - a freeflow partner excercise for sensitivity and reaction

two partners face each other. one punches, the other uses a hook hand to stop it at the wrist and the other hand on the elbow pinning their arm to their body, then punches with the front hand. the partner then blocks the same way and it goes back and forth, adding in various attacks or changes at will

sorry my explanations a bit crappy, il try to get a video clip in the next few days

That is the first drill I teach beginning students, though we don't call it la feng shou.

Then we go to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYozF7DXrm8

And this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRT3oAW9w2w

[xiao yao]

no, its different to gou lou cai........ in la feng shou, you hook and press both hands at the same time, more like a shuang feng.

taiji mantis doesnt have gou lou cai in the keywords, this drill trains zhan & nian - sticking and adhering as well as being a set up for other techniques. like i said, its more like sticky hands or push hands.

also, i think taiji mantis uses less trapping movements than ive seen from hk seven star clips online.

[iunojupiter]

feng as in seal?

So this is a double hand seal after a hook?

I've always avoided double hand seals because you leave yourself open if you don't have the opponent turned at the right angle to eliminate use of their other arm. At least with a single hand seal you still have your free hand to defend if they slip your attempt.

Cheers,
Josh

[Tainan Mantis]

I've always avoided double hand seals because you leave yourself open

Double seal is the basis of 'lulu.'

Leaving yourself open is enticing the opponent to strike you at the opening.

[mooyingmantis]

no, its different to gou lou cai........ in la feng shou, you hook and press both hands at the same time, more like a shuang feng.

taiji mantis doesnt have gou lou cai in the keywords, this drill trains zhan & nian - sticking and adhering as well as being a set up for other techniques. like i said, its more like sticky hands or push hands.

also, i think taiji mantis uses less trapping movements than ive seen from hk seven star clips online.

Oh ok, my mistake. :o

Can you share the Taiji Tanglangquan keywords with us?

Yeah, many HK 7* schools emphasize the trapping drills. I use them to get the beginning students used to having someone throwing strikes at them up close and personal. It develops their confidence and helps them to control the "flinch" response.

[iunojupiter]

Double seal is the basis of 'lulu.'

Leaving yourself open is enticing the opponent to strike you at the opening.

Yes, but both of your hands are occupied. It's the same with a double pick. It's great if you get the double pick (or the double seal), but if you don't get it, both your hands are occupied and one of theirs is not.
I'm satisfied with the speed of my hands, but I don't imagine they're quick enough to come back from a setback like that and defend effectively.
But that's me.

[xiao yao]

zhan 粘 stick
nian 粘 adhere
bang 帮 double handed press/push
tie 贴 lean (body to body contact)
lai 来 approaching
jiao 叫 provoking
shun 顺 moving along
song 送 moving against
ti 提 lift
na 拿 grab
feng 封 seal
bi 闭 close

[xiao yao]

its not really leaving you open as the opponents arm is pressed against the body, the power of the press should be enough to knock the opponent back, which is immediately followed up with an attack.

[Tainan Mantis]

I'm satisfied with the speed of my hands, but I don't imagine they're quick enough to come back from a setback like that and defend effectively.

Do you not train any of the following?
'go lou cai'
'cai san shou'
'shuang feng shou'
'tou zhan di lou'
'tiao bao chui'
'tiao bao cha chui'
'tiao bu chui'
'mo pan shou'
'tou zhan'
'deng pu'
'deng ta'

[Tainan Mantis]

its not really leaving you open as the opponents arm is pressed against the body, the power of the press should be enough to knock the opponent back, which is immediately followed up with an attack.

That is precisely how I feel.

[iunojupiter]

Do you not train any of the following?
'go lou cai'
'cai san shou'
'shuang feng shou'
'tou zhan di lou'
'tiao bao chui'
'tiao bao cha chui'
'tiao bu chui'
'mo pan shou'
'tou zhan'
'deng pu'
'deng ta'

go lou cai
I know for sure that I've practiced that, but even then, they're all independent movements. You're not doing any two actions at the same time that occupy both hands. While one is doing go, lou, or cai, the other is free to defend.
As for the others, I may have practiced them, but have never memorized the names. (I'm a horrible student in that regard).
While I agree in theory with you and xiao yao about the press being enough to cause the body alignment to block the other arm, my personal concern is if they are able to negate my seal and still have their other arm free to hit me, my two hands/arms are now occupied trying to control their one.
I think the reason I have a problem with a double seal or a double pluck or a double anything on one opponents extremity is that my teacher is very skilled at chen taiji and committing two hands/arms to one of his is like suicide :D
Like I said, it's me with the issue. I don't think the technique is invalid or anything.

[mooyingmantis]

zhan 粘 stick
nian 粘 adhere
bang 帮 double handed press/push
tie 贴 lean (body to body contact)
lai 来 approaching
jiao 叫 provoking
shun 顺 moving along
song 送 moving against
ti 提 lift
na 拿 grab
feng 封 seal
bi 闭 close

Thank you!

These are the same as the ones Su Yu Zhang lists for his Mimen Tanglangquan.

Would you equate shun 顺 "moving along" with "yielding"?

[xiao yao]

I think yielding is pretty much the same thing. I dont understand all the 12 words thoroughly, Im going through them one by one analysing each one.

Today I talked to master zhou about Jiao. Jiao literally means "to call" and he likened it to "knocking on the door to make someone answer" for example if we take the opponents arms to be their door, then we can use jabs or prods to their guard to make them attack. another example is swift parries against the opponents attacks. this would be followed by Bi "to close the door", whereby you close your guard (like the way the hands move after hopping back from a yuan yang jiao)

[mooyingmantis]

Thank you!

Great explanation of "jiao".

shun 顺 and song 送 seem to be couplets. One deals with yielding, the other with standing firm or clashing. Is this on target?

[xiao yao]

Those two Im not sure about. I took the English translation from a post of mantis quarterly. I assume as Song in everyday use means "to see somebody off" or "accompany somebody" that it would mean to force the opponent away and to follow them with attacks as they retreat. Does that sound about right?