Kanryo Higashionna and Hakatsuru?

[elu296]

I've just found this old issue of Black Belt Mag; http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=I9IDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA70&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
It mentions (p.71) that as well as the core Goju and To'on ryu katas, Higashionna brought back a white crane form from China. Anyone know anything about it?
Thanks in advance.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I've just found this old issue of Black Belt Mag; http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=I9IDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA70&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
It mentions (p.71) that as well as the core Goju and To'on ryu katas, Higashionna brought back a white crane form from China. Anyone know anything about it?
Thanks in advance.

One of the main historical theory is that Higashionna sensei trained in a southern style of kung fu, quite probably a white crane version, although some believe that it was five ancestors or perhaps even a combo of both.
He of course modified the Katas to have a more "okinawan" flavour to them ( changes the open hand into fists for example).
The Hakatsuru ( whie crane) form was, supposedly, kept secret and taught only to the person that was gonna carry on the lineage.
Another version is that Miyagi was taught it in his trips to Southern China and yet another is that Miyagi created it himself.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Wasn't there a person by the name of Gokenki, a White Crane Master, who lived in Okinawa?

mickey

[Pork Chop]

I think this is what you're looking for...

http://youtu.be/INg8oQ8YQLk

A comparison of Nipaipo and Ershiba

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think this is what you're looking for...

http://youtu.be/INg8oQ8YQLk

A comparison of Nipaipo and Ershiba

That is an excellent series, Kung fu quest.
I wonder where one cna get it and with subtitiles...

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL, found it:
http://www.moviesuper.com/moviesuper/p-10403-kung-fu-quest-dvd.aspx

[Minghequan]

That is only the first series. The 2nd series deals with White Crane and I don't think it is available yet???

[Pork Chop]

Finally got around to watching that one I posted.
It was posted on facebook with the description that it was a comparison between the 2 forms; I didn't realize that it was just 2 white crane guys reading through the kuen po of the okinawan white crane form.
I'll try to find a good video of the okinawan white crane form.
I learned a softer version of it back during my form collecting days and I was told it was a fukien form.

[Kevin73]

More modern research indicates that Kanryo only taught 4 kata; Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiryu and Suparempei since this also matches the other Naha-te styles of Uechi and To'un Ryu (Uechi admitted to not learning the full Suparempei while in China).

It is believed that Miyagi created the other kata as seen in Goju Ryu, whether through the direct supervision of Kanryo or on his own.

When it comes to tracking the influence of hakatsuru, it is hard because "White crane" styles can vary greatly in China. You have Fujian White Crane which is very similar to the other southern styles and then you have something like Tibetan White Crane that is more northern in appearance of very long arm techniques. From other sources I have read the Hakatsuru was created by masters of their beliefs and training experience with White Crane and that the katas will vary depending on school and weren't a specific kata taught.

[Pork Chop]

More modern research indicates that Kanryo only taught 4 kata; Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiryu and Suparempei since this also matches the other Naha-te styles of Uechi and To'un Ryu (Uechi admitted to not learning the full Suparempei while in China).

It is believed that Miyagi created the other kata as seen in Goju Ryu, whether through the direct supervision of Kanryo or on his own.

When it comes to tracking the influence of hakatsuru, it is hard because "White crane" styles can vary greatly in China. You have Fujian White Crane which is very similar to the other southern styles and then you have something like Tibetan White Crane that is more northern in appearance of very long arm techniques. From other sources I have read the Hakatsuru was created by masters of their beliefs and training experience with White Crane and that the katas will vary depending on school and weren't a specific kata taught.

Not to be argumentative, but there are some parts that are unclear in your post.
Tibetan white crane and Fukien white crane are only similar in the name of the school; much like northern mantis and southern mantis, they don't really have anything to do with one another.

Naha-te hakutsuru (白鶴拳) is quite clearly based off of Fujian styles (Fukien White Crane and/or Ngor Chor/Wuzu, which has White Crane roots). There are 5 main styles of Fujian white crane. Okinawan karate is usually identified with Whooping Crane (and sometimes Feeding Crane). http://youtu.be/e9QZmXhCA9I

The Fujian white crane form the OP was asking about does exist in Okinawan karate. I've seen it performed by members of the Hokama family. I'm just having a hard time finding videos for comparison because I only have about 20 minutes in the evening to myself where I can watch youtube videos.

[Kevin73]

Not to be argumentative, but there are some parts that are unclear in your post.
Tibetan white crane and Fukien white crane are only similar in the name of the school; much like northern mantis and southern mantis, they don't really have anything to do with one another.

Naha-te hakutsuru (白鶴拳) is quite clearly based off of Fujian styles (Fukien White Crane and/or Ngor Chor/Wuzu, which has White Crane roots). There are 5 main styles of Fujian white crane. Okinawan karate is usually identified with Whooping Crane (and sometimes Feeding Crane). http://youtu.be/e9QZmXhCA9I

The Fujian white crane form the OP was asking about does exist in Okinawan karate. I've seen it performed by members of the Hokama family. I'm just having a hard time finding videos for comparison because I only have about 20 minutes in the evening to myself where I can watch youtube videos.

You are very correct about the north/south thing. That is what I was trying to point out. I have seen some look to the Northern Crane and say that it looks nothing like okinawan karate and therefore is a myth and not an influence.

Here is the Fujian white crane form of San Zhan (Sanchin)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IpHRpmu320&feature=related

You can definately see the roots of Goju-Ryu, as it is VERY much like the Naha-te versions of it.

Here is Tibetan white crane, as you can see it looks nothing like the Fujian white crane (which was my point, many "white crane" katas I have seen look more like the Tibetan long arm stuff than the tight in close Fujian white crane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF6sSWharGk

Here is an okinawan version of Hakatsuru, there are different versions, because again it was not a set kata per se but a kata based on the teachings and understandings of the chinese white crane system and passed on within a specific system/style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=encHYcCQgxc

and another version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ3hAzm1fgA&feature=related

The Matsumuru version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr9xnZTrqV8&feature=related

Just like many other katas of the same name, it taught lessons and wasn't set in stone like now. Goju-Ryu didn't create their katas based on exchanges with chinese envoys on okinawa like many of the Shuri-based systems and kata (Wansu, Chinto, Kusanku for example). It is my belief that the Hakatsuru kata was also created in much the same way as these other Shuri-based katas. By okinawans based on the lessons they learned from their experiences with the chinese teachers.

Goju-Ryu differs because the katas were learned IN China and then brought back to okinawa where they were passed on. Even though some were a part of the crane system. To put it simply, Goju-Ryu would not have the Hakatsuru kata or training methodology seperate from it's main katas like the Shuri based styles since it was a main part of what was being passed on.

[Pork Chop]

....
Goju-Ryu differs because the katas were learned IN China and then brought back to okinawa where they were passed on. Even though some were a part of the crane system. To put it simply, Goju-Ryu would not have the Hakatsuru kata or training methodology seperate from it's main katas like the Shuri based styles since it was a main part of what was being passed on.

Ah, now I understand.
Thanks for the clarification. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Again, the history of Goju-ryu and it's katas are still much debated and no one knows for sure.
What most all agree is that:
Higashionna learned a southern system of Kung fu while in Southern China.
Upon his return to Okinawa he modified the katas to be more "okinawan" and taught them to some people, amongst them Chojun Miyagi.
Miyagi went to southern China on his own to further develop his Karate.
Upon his return and after sometime if further modified the katas he knew and the new ones he had been taught and brought back from China.
There was much intermixing of katas and training between the different Okinawan styles and they borrowed freely amongst each other.
After sometime, anally retentive "lineage holders" took over and the whole system of freely sharing and cooperating went to ****.
:p