Banning Traditional in MMA

[GeneChing]

A funny column on Bleacher Report today. :rolleyes:

UFC and MMA Debates: Should Traditional Martial Arts Be Banned? (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1103814-ufc-and-mma-debates-should-traditional-martial-arts-be-banned)
By Dale De Souza
(Featured Columnist) on March 14, 2012

No martial arts should ever be banned from a sport that calls itself "Mixed Martial Arts."

Contrary to what the opening piece to the first episode of "The Ultimate Fighter: Live" says, the sport of Mixed Martial Arts is more than just Boxing, Muay Thai, Jiu-Jitsu and Wrestling.

When it first started, the sport wasn't even seen as Mixed Martial Arts at all, because all that was included in the "mix" was a roster full of fighters who were "one-dimensional" by today's standard, but who also excelled in their primary style of fighting.

Nowadays, the game has changed to where more styles are accompanying a fighter's primary "base" style of fighting, and while a fighter might get away with adjusting to wherever the fight goes, he won't get away with only working with one or two styles of fighting, unless he's worked hard enough in those two areas in order to prevent fights from reaching a certain area of combat.

Aside from the cross-training, fighters are using various styles like Karate, Judo, and even the Cambodian art of Bokator in order to create or expand their skill sets.

Not only that, but also especially in the case of Bokator and Karate, fighters are either taking skills from arts that were presumptuously ineffective for MMA or taking skills from arts that were initially not designed for the Octagon, and they're finding ways to make those styles work effectively inside the heat of an MMA fight.

The same negative connotations that once surrounded Bokator and Karate, especially Shotokan Karate and Kyokushin Karate, are now applied to other traditional martial arts around the world, and it creates a clear uncertainty as to whether some styles can work effectively in MMA, but why ban them?

Is it because their purest forms are seen as too deadly for the cage, or is it because they really are more ineffective inside the cage than some want us to think they already are in real life, or is it because the skeptics are too afraid to see a style in action, knowing fully well that it will prove somewhat effective in MMA?

There is no certain reason, it seems, but unless I am incorrect, they do call this sport "Mixed Martial Arts",and although the new school runs the roost, is that any excuse to permanently bury the traditional martial arts, knowing full well that each discipline of the martial arts contains at least one technique that can be used in MMA legally and effectively?

Last time I checked, there's no valid reason to ban the traditional martial arts, because once you ban one martial arts discipline, how can you have a true "mix" of disciplines in a sport where every unique fighting style yearns to be represented for all to see and enjoy?

[sanjuro_ronin]

One wonders if this person knows that Judo, Boxing and MT ( and yes in BJJ to a certain degree) are all TMA.
Since when did kyokushin ever have a "negative connotation" in MMA ??
And where on earth did this "ban" notion come from ??

[Lucas]

seriously, that guy doesnt know what hes talking bout lol. he must be new

[Lucas]

looked him up, hes been a mma columnist for 1 year....came from wwe and wwf....it all makes sense now....hes primarily a pro wrestling guy...i wonder if he thinks that its real?

[GeneChing]

I was fairly befuddled by the article, but figured it might make for some decent posts here....perhaps some indecent ones too. ;)

[No_Know]

Squirrel is basically a start standing thing. Not Gym Mixed Martial Arts. It's more a way of breathing but might not be considered Qi Gong by the Mainstream Qigongers. Squirrel doesn't have the history to be actually considered a Kung-Fu alongside the well established...Hung Gar, T'ien Shan Pai, O-Mei, Shao-Lin, T'aijiquan, Pa Kua,..Squirrel..If I can't reightly call it a Kung-Fu How would it be billed in a MmA Tournament?

Is Squirel traditional because I came-up with it (made it up)? Would traditional be in a category with that tagline?

No_Know

[Syn7]

Who is actually debating this? I can't see anyone banning tma from mma . It's a retarded thought.




Also, to keep a fight in one range you have to study the other ranges and can not "master" keeping away from those ranges. Like a guy wants to keep standing against a wrestler, he uses his wrestling to stay standing then pushes off and tees off. If you want to avoid getting elbowed in the face by MT cats then you need to practice against MT cats which means you are training MT, at least in part. A singular style is defined by how it handles another of the same style, but cross training changes that. When you train against an opponent of a diff style you are cross training. Just because you aren't actively seeking moves from that style and are instead learning to defend against that style it doesn't mean you aren't learning from that style. Does that make sense?



Oh and....

No Know, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[No_Know]

No prob. Makes sense, Syn7, that it doesn't make sense. Possiblly not over all important.

I was interested to have my own Kung-Fu--attack-defense techniques, a set of fighting principles, philosophy, weapons and a form, done with a framework of an animal. I did come-up with something but there are ties to the real Kung-fu community and I don't dare to call My Whatever a Kung-Fu nor a Qigong, because those have history behind them and I'm not really a branch. So respecting traditional Kung-Fus too much to call Ernie Moore Jr.'s Kung-Fu attempt, Squirrel- a Kung-Fu; how would it be announced in the UFC sorta thing?--And Now! a Squirrel practitioner??? O.K.Note: I was advised against doing tough man competitions when I was younger (thirties), and am not prone to make the effort to perform in the UFC, although I would train someone who was interested and able to try-out or go--I'm in the Frederick, MD-Charles Town, WV-Hagerstown, MD-Martinsburg, WV area. See if someome using Squirrel methodologies progresses.Though not a true guage unless its about always winning or making a respectible showing.

It seems to me that a suggestion that so called traditional martial arts be banned from the major MMA venue(s) could be based on an matter of having a sufficient base tof similar plaers to support themselves.

Also or along the line that, devoted-mainline dedicated, if-you-would, Traditional styles, have had a poor showing compared to the greater volume of considered Modern Mixed Martial Arts-ish that might flood the events.

No_Know

[Paul T England]

Money will be the deciding factor on which way MMA goes....

[Dragonzbane76]

Banning taditional where most of the techniques come from? Makes no sense at all. Maybe this guy should go back to the dramatic world of pro wrestling.

[goju]

How precisely would you ban it anyway? Couldnt a say, karate stylist just enter and say he knows kick boxing and get away with it?

[Frost]

TCMA isnt banned from these events, it just doesnt wamt to take part lol

The only way MMA regulates itself is by asking for a fight record and some of the better organisations hold camps for prospective fighters, as long as you can hold your own standing and on the ground and show you wont get killed they will allow you to take part

From a marketing point of view for an MMA organisation getting TCMA invloved makes good financial sense as it openes up a whole new market and brings in more spectators

[Neeros]

Nowadays, the game has changed to where more styles are accompanying a fighter's primary "base" style of fighting, and while a fighter might get away with adjusting to wherever the fight goes, he won't get away with only working with one or two styles of fighting, unless he's worked hard enough in those two areas in order to prevent fights from reaching a certain area of combat.

Luckily if you are taught correctly Kung fu covers all modes of fighting. Striking, Kicking, Throwing, and Gripping so there is no need to cross train into BJJ, Boxing, or Muay Thai, etc.

[Frost]

Luckily if you are taught correctly Kung fu covers all modes of fighting. Striking, Kicking, Throwing, and Gripping so there is no need to cross train into BJJ, Boxing, or Muay Thai, etc.

did i see a delorean just go past in a blaze of lightening? have we time warped back to the 80's:confused::confused:

[Dragonzbane76]

Brings back memories. That it does.

[David Jamieson]

what? my double daggers are totally traditional!

So are my flexible weapons!

All traditional, zero sporting about it.

Kung Fu is cool that way.

YOu wanna box? GTFO, I'll cut you! :p

remember that Sammy Franco guy anyone?

dude: "what if I came to your school and challenged you?"
sammy "I'd answer my door with a shotgun".

THAT is reality based self defense. Guy was a total d-bag, but actually cut through the whole sport fighting chest pounding crap and got to the root of actual fighting.

There is no safety net. You don't know if there is a weapon. If you don't have a weapon you should get one. Tussling is for kids.

[Frost]

what? my double daggers are totally traditional!

So are my flexible weapons!

All traditional, zero sporting about it.

Kung Fu is cool that way.

YOu wanna box? GTFO, I'll cut you! :p

remember that Sammy Franco guy anyone?

dude: "what if I came to your school and challenged you?"
sammy "I'd answer my door with a shotgun".

THAT is reality based self defense. Guy was a total d-bag, but actually cut through the whole sport fighting chest pounding crap and got to the root of actual fighting.

There is no safety net. You don't know if there is a weapon. If you don't have a weapon you should get one. Tussling is for kids.

way to point that out on the mixed martial arts forum :rolleyes:...maybe you should just stick to the other forums im sure they are missing your wisdom.....us guys that actually spar and do MMA will be fine without you :D

[David Jamieson]

way to point that out on the mixed martial arts forum :rolleyes:...maybe you should just stick to the other forums im sure they are missing your wisdom.....us guys that actually spar and do MMA will be fine without you :D

"actually" spar.

You think people don't spar in traditional schools? really?

maybe you should mind your headgear and make sure it's the right size.

[Lucas]

what is this spar thing?

[David Jamieson]

what is this spar thing?

It's like a mast or a boom. Used for sailing.
true story!

[Lucas]

It's like a mast or a boom. Used for sailing.
true story!


http://www.sailboatstogo.com/img/catalog/parts/Spars_and_slide.jpg

[Syn7]

what? my double daggers are totally traditional!

So are my flexible weapons!

All traditional, zero sporting about it.

Kung Fu is cool that way.

YOu wanna box? GTFO, I'll cut you! :p

remember that Sammy Franco guy anyone?

dude: "what if I came to your school and challenged you?"
sammy "I'd answer my door with a shotgun".

THAT is reality based self defense. Guy was a total d-bag, but actually cut through the whole sport fighting chest pounding crap and got to the root of actual fighting.

There is no safety net. You don't know if there is a weapon. If you don't have a weapon you should get one. Tussling is for kids.

You've never cut anyone. We both know you don't have the juice for that.:p Don't front. There is playing swords and then there is actually cutting somebody. Having the ability is just a formality. A dude intent on cutting you down with a sword but never trained is a hell of a lot scarier than some middle aged whiteboy wearing silks and swinging a piece of sheet metal.


Any of you guys practice western styles of edged and pointed weapons? I could mos def get into playing swords for sport. Fencing is fresh. I think I prefer saber over foil. Épée too. Saber Épée then Foil in that order.


Sport combat is one thing but when it comes to street combat I think I would just carry a gun. If I was worried about my safety I wouldn't even bother fighting. I always have a blade on me. I use it for all kinds of stuff every day, but it can be an effective weapon too. It takes alot more than most people think to actually do that sort of harm to somebody no matter the circumstances. Even in the grips of death a lot of folks would, at the very least, hesitate slightly.

[Frost]

"actually" spar.

You think people don't spar in traditional schools? really?

maybe you should mind your headgear and make sure it's the right size.

i know people spar in TCMA, but ts normally easy to spot those that dont...they always talk about the deadliness of the street...about how sports fighting is useless for that venue etc etc....how they would simple use a knife to negate all a sports fighters skill set..... its not hard to spot someone full of it

[SavvySavage]

"actually" spar.

You think people don't spar in traditional schools? really?

maybe you should mind your headgear and make sure it's the right size.

I think Frost is saying that you don't spar from the way you write. It's similar to when a vegan tries to convince you that the crap they put in front of you tastes better than the real thing and is more nutritious than the real thing. That it doesn't taste like cardboard.

[Shaolin]

way to point that out on the mixed martial arts forum :rolleyes:...maybe you should just stick to the other forums im sure they are missing your wisdom.....us guys that actually spar and do MMA will be fine without you :D

And what martial arts do you mix?

Boxing = traditional

Muay Thai = traditional

Wrestling = traditional

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu = traditional

What makes a martial art "traditional"? The simple fact of passing information/beliefs down generation to generation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tradition?s=t

It doesn't matter if an art is practiced for the purpose of health, self defense, confidence, sport or any other reason if it has rituals and is passed down to the next generation, it is by definition a "traditional" martial art.

The problem I run into with most practitioners is they don't know the history and origins of what they are training in.

[David Jamieson]

I think Frost is saying that you don't spar from the way you write. It's similar to when a vegan tries to convince you that the crap they put in front of you tastes better than the real thing and is more nutritious than the real thing. That it doesn't taste like cardboard.


Uh, that's retarded. lol

I hold a juvenile boxing record have been practicing Martial Arts probably longer than the dude has been alive and he thinks, or rather you think he thinks I don't practice because of how I write? Because of how I diminish meathead mouthpiece dudes with regularity here at this site due to their testosterone posturing and assumptions of superiority because they have a preference?

yeah, that's retarded. period.

[SavvySavage]

Uh, that's retarded. lol

I hold a juvenile boxing record have been practicing Martial Arts probably longer than the dude has been alive and he thinks, or rather you think he thinks I don't practice because of how I write? Because of how I diminish meathead mouthpiece dudes with regularity here at this site due to their testosterone posturing and assumptions of superiority because they have a preference?

yeah, that's retarded. period.

So...do you spar on a regular basis or not? I don't really care. I'm just asking.

[Frost]

And what martial arts do you mix?

Boxing = traditional

Muay Thai = traditional

Wrestling = traditional

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu = traditional

What makes a martial art "traditional"? The simple fact of passing information/beliefs down generation to generation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tradition?s=t

It doesn't matter if an art is practiced for the purpose of health, self defense, confidence, sport or any other reason if it has rituals and is passed down to the next generation, it is by definition a "traditional" martial art.

The problem I run into with most practitioners is they don't know the history and origins of what they are training in.

my problem is mostly people with bad reading comprehension...for example where did i say anything about traditional or modern arts? i said do MMA, the actual sport (which is what this forum is aimed at) if thats what you do great im sure Jamieson doesnt and this forum is for the MMA guys, those that do the sport or like it we can do without people making what they see as smart remarks about topics no one has brought up :)

[Frost]

Uh, that's retarded. lol

I hold a juvenile boxing record have been practicing Martial Arts probably longer than the dude has been alive and he thinks, or rather you think he thinks I don't practice because of how I write? Because of how I diminish meathead mouthpiece dudes with regularity here at this site due to their testosterone posturing and assumptions of superiority because they have a preference?

yeah, that's retarded. period.

the above is a classic example of what im talking in regards to how a classic insecure non sparring mouth boxer might should thankyou :)

[m1k3]

Ziiiiiiiippppp.

Yep, mine's bigger.


Look's like David won. :D

[Yao Sing]

Wow, MMA complaining about CMA guys showing up in their forum making derogatory remarks?

I'm sure the MMA guys would never do that to the CMA guys, say, like in a Kung Fu forum.:rolleyes:


BTW, they should ban all martial arts from MMA. Then everyone has to fight with their own made up moves WITHOUT TAKING FROM ANY EXISTING STYLES. That should work out really well. :D

[Syn7]

I think Frost is saying that you don't spar from the way you write. It's similar to when a vegan tries to convince you that the crap they put in front of you tastes better than the real thing and is more nutritious than the real thing. That it doesn't taste like cardboard.

Not once did he say DJ sparred or not. He said he can tell who doesn't by their skills and sometimes by their words. Why would you assume he was saying DJ doesn't spar?

[Syn7]

And what martial arts do you mix?

Boxing = traditional

Muay Thai = traditional

Wrestling = traditional

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu = traditional

What makes a martial art "traditional"? The simple fact of passing information/beliefs down generation to generation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tradition?s=t

It doesn't matter if an art is practiced for the purpose of health, self defense, confidence, sport or any other reason if it has rituals and is passed down to the next generation, it is by definition a "traditional" martial art.

The problem I run into with most practitioners is they don't know the history and origins of what they are training in.

You act like he disputes that? WTF?
Why do people always assume people mean things they never wrote? What the fukc is wrong with people these days. Geeeeeeeeez....

It's like you're arguing with your own misguided imagination. You crazy.

[Syn7]

Look's like David won. :D

Won what? A BJ from you for being superawesomecoolguycanibelikeyouplease?

[Syn7]

Wow, MMA complaining about CMA guys showing up in their forum making derogatory remarks?

I'm sure the MMA guys would never do that to the CMA guys, say, like in a Kung Fu forum.:rolleyes:


BTW, they should ban all martial arts from MMA. Then everyone has to fight with their own made up moves WITHOUT TAKING FROM ANY EXISTING STYLES. That should work out really well. :D

OK first off, nobody with any sort of a mind ever said anything remotely resembling the idea of banning TMA from MMA. It's a retarded thought from a retarded person.

Second, Nobody has bashed TMA here. NOBODY. The only people bashed here are folks who don't train properly and think they can fight based on some weird faith that they are good despite never actually having met any sort of real resistance. That goes for MMA guys just as much as it goes for TMA guys. I've met MMA guys that spend 6 months in a gym and actually believe they are deadly because they do well in a controlled situation with others of a similar beginner level. I see that in MMA and TMA.

It absolutely amazes me when somebody talks about how great of a fighter they are but have never actually fought anybody. To me that is just plain crazy. That's like reading a medical text then believing you can do surgery. Just plain dumb.



One last thing. When people use the term TMA they do not mean traditional in the dictionary definition sense that you proposed. They are referring to long standing traditions, not simple one gen to the next. If that was what defined TMA then every single MMA cat that trains pure MMA hybrid from day one is practicing TMA coz it came as a whole from a teacher to the student. That simply isn't what people mean when they say TMA. And when it comes to words what is important is intent as opposed to what is actually said. How often do people say things wrong but you know what they mean and don't take it literally because you have the brainpower to distinguish between the two.

[SavvySavage]

Not once did he say DJ sparred or not. He said he can tell who doesn't by their skills and sometimes by their words. Why would you assume he was saying DJ doesn't spar?

Get a grip dude. I'm not sure what frost was saying but I'm pretty sure dj interpreted his comments wrong. I just stated what I thought frost meant. I don't know anything about dj's training.

[Shaolin]

i said do MMA, the actual sport

I know. I was sincerely asking a question and starting a new conversation.

[m1k3]

Won what? A BJ from you for being superawesomecoolguycanibelikeyouplease?

Wow dude, you really need to consider cutting back on the caffeine.

And no, you can't be like me. There are only so many Super Awesome Cool Guys allowed in the world at one time and I'm sorry to say you just don't make the cut.

Taking an internet martial arts forum seriously is a major fail in itself.

:cool:

[David Jamieson]

the above is a classic example of what im talking in regards to how a classic insecure non sparring mouth boxer might should thankyou :)

what are you going on about?
are you thick or something?

oh wait, never mind, I'm talking to a wrestler who thinks he's superior to everyone here because he rolls on a mat!

of course.

:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

So...do you spar on a regular basis or not? I don't really care. I'm just asking.

Of course. Why wouldn't I? I practice martial arts, it's all part and parcel.

[Lucas]

but the real question is; what does practicing martial arts have to do with sailing? besides footing!

[m1k3]

but the real question is; what does practicing martial arts have to do with sailing? besides footing!

Obscure terminology? Fore, aft, port, starboard, head, deck and so on.

Actually my primary martial art comes from a nautical background.

USMC baby. Semper Fi!


The Super Awesome Cool Guy.

[David Jamieson]

but the real question is; what does practicing martial arts have to do with sailing? besides footing!

It's the spar thing.

speaking of which, I have a session at 1:30. :p

[Frost]

what are you going on about?
are you thick or something?

oh wait, never mind, I'm talking to a wrestler who thinks he's superior to everyone here because he rolls on a mat!

of course.

:rolleyes:

who said im only a wrestler? again your insecurities are showing :)

[Frost]

Not once did he say DJ sparred or not. He said he can tell who doesn't by their skills and sometimes by their words. Why would you assume he was saying DJ doesn't spar?

to be fair i might have implied that when i said he should leave the forum to people who spar and do MMA lol :)

[Syn7]

Wow dude, you really need to consider cutting back on the caffeine.

And no, you can't be like me. There are only so many Super Awesome Cool Guys allowed in the world at one time and I'm sorry to say you just don't make the cut.

Taking an internet martial arts forum seriously is a major fail in itself.

:cool:

Well, not to be a complete d1ck, but you took that wrong. I meant you getting on the knees because DJ is superawesomecoolguy that you want to be like. Not me sarcastically saying canibelikeyouplease.

On the real though, it was just a snap, nothing more. I dunno who you are and I have no issue with you whatsoever and have no real desire to interact with you in any way shape or form at this point in time. Of course everything is subject to change at any time.

[Syn7]

but the real question is; what does practicing martial arts have to do with sailing? besides footing!

If Mr Miyagi had a sail boat Danielsun would've won faster and without injury. Clearly sailboats are key to MA supremacy. If you can rok out the plum steaks on the bow in a 3 foot chop and not only prevent yourself from falling on your ass, but actually spar that way, you will be Tourney Champ for sure!!!

[Syn7]

Obscure terminology? Fore, aft, port, starboard, head, deck and so on.

Actually my primary martial art comes from a nautical background.

USMC baby. Semper Fi!


The Super Awesome Cool Guy.

whoooo-aaahhhhh!

[Syn7]

It's the spar thing.

speaking of which, I have a session at 1:30. :p

Sailing or sparring?

When you are sailing do you practice ducking the spar? Did I use that terminology correctly?
All my life I've done forms or balance exercises in or on the boat. I even take the opportunity to practice on the train every time I ride. Any vehicle I can stand in or on I will always let go and try to balance on my own in various positions. Can't help myself. It's just fun for me.

Sailing is fun. I have very little experience tho. I have had motor boats all my life. All outboard except for one which was more trouble than it was worth. I'm happy with 22" and a couple hundred horses on the back. In that respect I know tons. But sailing, nada. You can't live in Vancouver and never have sailed tho. It's a freakin port city after all.