Triangle Palms - YKS [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Yoshiyahu

03-15-2012, 01:16 PM

NO, I AM NOT STAN THE MAN...SORRY FOLKS..

Nor am i his son in the videos or his student. I am his Sidai. My Teacher doesnt have youtube videos...

ne way its all good...

im glad you guys enjoyed the clips an are learning from them!

It is amazing to continue to see this sort of clip on Youtube, and I would be concerned that your man here 'Stan' really has little to no clue about Wing Chun basics (let alone representing YKS so openly like this)

And let me be perfectly clear. This 'drill' (or part of it) is not foreign to me at all, but I think Stan is far too concerned with trying to make something work instead of simply using the drill to interact and train his student to a higher standard.

Why do you continue to use Stans clips to start discussions? Why not film a few of your own? :(

Hmmm...

Yoshi, are you Stan?

GET BACK ON TOPIC. Care to share anything about the Triangle Palms

JPinAZ

03-15-2012, 03:52 PM

Besides another horrible video of stand the clown, if I remember correctly, the 3 pictures in the OP were of a bad tann sau, a fook sau and and incorrectly structured gaan sau. (The OP is on my ignore list so can't check)
I have no idea why this thread is called "Triangle Palms" since the above techniques really have nothing to do with palms except maybe which way the palm is supposed to be facing.

Taan sau's intended contact point is the midpoint on the forearm in application (not referring to Taanbongfook chi sau ready position, but how to actually 'spread' the energy of an incoming attack).

Fook sau typically makes contact with the wrist striking point and knife edge part of the hand, but the focus is really about elbow covering the line.

Lower gaan sau typically makes contact again with wrist striking point palm facing to the outside.

BTW, Wayfaring is correct, Yoshi's real name is Clarence.

LoneTiger108

03-16-2012, 05:54 AM

GET BACK ON TOPIC. Care to share anything about the Triangle Palms

Ok Yoshi/Clarence...

Give me something else to go with because from what I see, and from what I understand to be a use of 'triangle palm', they are poles apart...

Firstly - The SEED of Tan, Fook and Bong as shown in the Dummy pics is rotated in sequence during this type of interaction, and Stan is not doing this. His basic level is very evident as he swings back and forth repeating the SEED in/out etc rather than staying to the method you talk of and then, to make matters worse, he starts to 'dive-in' to a loose 'Sansau attack method. Not good imho.

Secondly - The SEED relates directly to the 'techniques' of Mun, Wu and Gaan buut you need to understand the posturing first and exactly what the supporting hand is doing. Stan does not seem to be connected to this idea at all.

Third and finally - There are various ways of interpreting the 'traingle palm' method. One: you create a triangle of 'intent' at the back/base of the thumb to project a traingular shape of the hand in each SEED. Two: there is a refernce from my own training where this triangle is related directly to the contact target ie. the bends of elbows/knees, the under arms etc called 'saam gok jeung' which is trained specifically on our Mook Yan Jong.

I do not have a problem with the quality/standard of Wing Chun in Stans clips. he is simply doing what he is doing. BUT when you have many many people who have dedicated more than half their lives to the system it tends to get a bit tedious seeing such levels of skill (or lack of) being touted as 'Sifu' quality. And if you are his SiHing, I would hold YOU responsible for his standard lol!!

So, rather than pummeling the boards with all these threads, I would ask that you pay Stan a visit and work harder at raising HIS game if he wants to be taken seriously as a Sifu in this big bad World of Wing Chun today ;) :)

Yoshiyahu

03-16-2012, 02:14 PM

Well i said Stan is my Sihing, Big brother. He's been training WC longer than I have. I started training when I was teenager. I believe he had five years or more on me by then.

Let me digress. I see your discuing the techniques or principles behind triangle palms. Great...

As for Stan i dont see on his videos where he is saying he is a Sifu. he is passing his WC on to his Son. Who is in the video.

In the video he is not demostrating the Triangle Palms as you have on picture. He is demostrating a section in Siu Lien Tao form. He is showing a possible application for it...Where he demostrates Man Sau to intercept intial attack, from there he wu sau or pak sau an incoming attack. An then tan sau the second punch coming next. I am the one who is correlating his application to the triangle palms because stan is showing how you apply those techniques with a real like person. In other words With triangle plams on the wooden dummy it starts off with tan than wu then gan. But this is just a mere principle. You can tweak it as you like. I start it off with Wu sau then tan sau then jum sau...But the video stan has is showing two of the techniques. The wu sau and tan sau. So i simply shared the video so you can see how the two techniques are utilize on a real living person. If you know of any videos that are better please share!

The way i do triangle is different

Wu Sau
Tan Sau
Jum Sau

When you do something on the dummy the posistioning is slightly different than a live person. When you drill with a person your energy is different. you have to change the energy so the technique will work correctly.

But i dont see what he is doing as bad as you guys do. Infact i see the same stuff in other peoples videos on youtube he being doing WC for decades like stan has!

If you doubt his gung fu...by all means i suggest you meet up with him an show him what real wing chun is.

I enjoy training with him. He is alot fun to spar with with as well as chi sau. When i say spar i dont mean chi sau!

Ok Yoshi/Clarence...

Give me something else to go with because from what I see, and from what I understand to be a use of 'triangle palm', they are poles apart...

Firstly - The SEED of Tan, Fook and Bong as shown in the Dummy pics is rotated in sequence during this type of interaction, and Stan is not doing this. His basic level is very evident as he swings back and forth repeating the SEED in/out etc rather than staying to the method you talk of and then, to make matters worse, he starts to 'dive-in' to a loose 'Sansau attack method. Not good imho.

Secondly - The SEED relates directly to the 'techniques' of Mun, Wu and Gaan buut you need to understand the posturing first and exactly what the supporting hand is doing. Stan does not seem to be connected to this idea at all.

Third and finally - There are various ways of interpreting the 'traingle palm' method. One: you create a triangle of 'intent' at the back/base of the thumb to project a traingular shape of the hand in each SEED. Two: there is a refernce from my own training where this triangle is related directly to the contact target ie. the bends of elbows/knees, the under arms etc called 'saam gok jeung' which is trained specifically on our Mook Yan Jong.

I do not have a problem with the quality/standard of Wing Chun in Stans clips. he is simply doing what he is doing. BUT when you have many many people who have dedicated more than half their lives to the system it tends to get a bit tedious seeing such levels of skill (or lack of) being touted as 'Sifu' quality. And if you are his SiHing, I would hold YOU responsible for his standard lol!!

So, rather than pummeling the boards with all these threads, I would ask that you pay Stan a visit and work harder at raising HIS game if he wants to be taken seriously as a Sifu in this big bad World of Wing Chun today ;) :)

Yoshiyahu

03-16-2012, 02:21 PM

You do know the pictures your calling is bad...is from the YKS webpage right...

why you disrespecting them i suggest you check them out...

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/index.html

Besides another horrible video of stand the clown, if I remember correctly, the 3 pictures in the OP were of a bad tann sau, a fook sau and and incorrectly structured gaan sau. (The OP is on my ignore list so can't check)
I have no idea why this thread is called "Triangle Palms" since the above techniques really have nothing to do with palms except maybe which way the palm is supposed to be facing.

Taan sau's intended contact point is the midpoint on the forearm in application (not referring to Taanbongfook chi sau ready position, but how to actually 'spread' the energy of an incoming attack).

Fook sau typically makes contact with the wrist striking point and knife edge part of the hand, but the focus is really about elbow covering the line.

Lower gaan sau typically makes contact again with wrist striking point palm facing to the outside.

BTW, Wayfaring is correct, Yoshi's real name is Clarence.

LoneTiger108

03-17-2012, 11:35 AM

Well i said Stan is my Sihing, Big brother. He's been training WC longer than I have. I started training when I was teenager. I believe he had five years or more on me by then.

Things are beginning to make sense.

In the video he is not demostrating the Triangle Palms as you have on picture. He is demostrating a section in Siu Lien Tao form.

Now that makes more sense! But why start athread on Triangle Palm and show a clip that has nothing to do with it??

Do you approach your own Wing Chun learning in the same wayward manner??

The way i do triangle is different

Wu Sau
Tan Sau
Jum Sau

When you do something on the dummy the posistioning is slightly different than a live person. When you drill with a person your energy is different. you have to change the energy so the technique will work correctly.

How long have you been training Wing Chun again? Like, Wing Chun only, not any other arts?

he (Stan) being doing WC for decades like stan has!

Now that is quite surprising to me. When you say 'doing Wing Chun' whay exactly do you mean?? Who is his Sifu and how long did he learn directly with him for? Or has he simply had an 'interest' in Wing Chun for decades and been to a few Seminars??

If you doubt his gung fu...by all means i suggest you meet up with him an show him what real wing chun is.

As you say, he isn't saying he is a Sifu or anything. Just teaching his kid. I would always meet with anyone who wanted to exchange Wing Chun ideas, but I am in no way saying I have 'real Wing Chun' dude. Just very different. Can I say, I take my own training a little more seriously?

Yoshiyahu

03-18-2012, 01:06 PM

Things are beginning to make sense.

Im glad things are getting revealed for you

Now that makes more sense! But why start a thread on Triangle Palm and show a clip that has nothing to do with it??

Do you approach your own Wing Chun learning in the same wayward manner??

The reason for starting the thread is to show the correlation of triangle palms being used on a live person instead of wooden dummy. The Wu Sau and Tan Sau as it is done on the dummy is static. Where as the Wu Sau and Tan sau Stan is doing is alive. It shows how those two techniques interelate.

How long have you been training Wing Chun again? Like, Wing Chun only, not any other arts?

Well i been training WC since I was about 16 so that makes a little over 16 years. I trained privately with my Sifu for about five years. Then took a break from WC for about two years. But I still did sparring and chi sau with my sidai. Got back to training again publically with him when i was about 22 or 23. Somewhere around there. But also begin to doing Tai Chi, Baguazhang and Wing Chun. Basically it wasnt as formal concerning the WC just mere corrections. But i eventually started doing some training with his Sihing Mike Burnside. Also I started training with Stan around 27 or 29 years of age. Still See woody(My Sifu) from time to time. I am 35 now. Ne way let me digress. I do not only practice WC. But it is my based art. He started us off with some basic stuff in tiger and crane and the five elements. I didnt study that long enough to fight effiecently with it. But what i did learn i can apply with my Wing Chun.

Now that is quite surprising to me. When you say 'doing Wing Chun' whay exactly do you mean?? Who is his Sifu and how long did he learn directly with him for? Or has he simply had an 'interest' in Wing Chun for decades and been to a few Seminars??

As for Stan he first started off doing Karate. I cant give you exact years you need to asked him. His Sifu is Mike Burnside. He learn directly from Mike I wanna say Ten years maybe more. But he too also did Tai Chi as well. Stan also learn directly from Robert McField. Thats when McField begin to incorporate Choy Li Fut into curriculm too. I dont know if its good or bad. i cant be the judge since I never really seen it first hand. They have a side body WC style too they incorporate. But ne way. Let me digress. He has being doing WC meaning for over 20 years which means Practicing the forms, Chi Sau, Sparring other martial styles and street fighters, Drilling the Wooden Man and wooden dummy form, Practicing the pole form and drills, Hitting a wall bag, kicking a heavy bag and punching it, dropping down force on a iron palm bag with steel shots, running, lifting weights, and doing many of the other strength and condition skills we have in our system.

As you say, he isn't saying he is a Sifu or anything. Just teaching his kid. I would always meet with anyone who wanted to exchange Wing Chun ideas, but I am in no way saying I have 'real Wing Chun' dude. Just very different. Can I say, I take my own training a little more seriously?

I disagree. i dont believe there is a such thing as Real or Fake wing chun. There is good and bad Wing chun. Some people have a shell of wing chun where they imploy westernize principles and concepts. Some people have traditional based Wing Chun where they imploy more of purist concept and principles. I like a little of both, Traditional Purist pricinples and concepts and I also pull from westernize ideology and principles too. Depending on the sitituation. I firmly believe I have authenic Wing Chun as you might insinuate from Real Wing Chun. I know the wing chun I learn is very good despite what some may believe from looking at Stans Videos. It is what it is. I will say our Wing Chun is very different from most of you. The principles alone is alien to what most of the people do on forums with the exceptions to a very few i have spoken with or read their post in various threads. That doesn't make others WC bad or good. Just different. I always say its not the system that matters but the indiviuals way of expressing it. The way I express, innovate and translate my Wing Chun is completely different than the way Stan Does his. I train differently than he does because I was taught differently, i am built differently and my persona and mindframe is different than his. So our WC will have similiaries but difference by way of expression. The same as your WC is different from your Sifu's and your WC brothers and sisters.

Martial Style doesn't matter. What matters is the person who expresses it.

LoneTiger108

03-19-2012, 04:18 AM

I disagree. i dont believe there is a such thing as Real or Fake wing chun.

Funny. I didn't say you did dude! I was merely throwing YOUR OWN words back atchya, as it sounded like you were saying that if I wanted to show Stan 'my real Wing Chun' then contact him or something!??

I enjoyed reading your other replies, and it is ever more clear to me what it is you are doing with your Wing Chun.

I always say its not the system that matters but the indiviuals way of expressing it. The way I express, innovate and translate my Wing Chun is completely different than the way Stan Does his. I train differently than he does because I was taught differently, i am built differently and my persona and mindframe is different than his. So our WC will have similiaries but difference by way of expression. The same as your WC is different from your Sifu's and your WC brothers and sisters.

Martial Style doesn't matter. What matters is the person who expresses it.

This post gives me a better picture of your understanding I think.

I believe The System is KEY. It can not be manipulated. It is fixed. It is more than what Ip Man taught in HK, and it has connections to both the Red Boats and Shaolin Temple, Kulo, Fatshan and the rest of the World through individual promotions! The System is, was and forever will be 'written down'. It's a map, if you like, of everything the original founder/s wanted to pass on.

If you want a modern interpretation, it is like what Bruce Lee's Jun Fan Gung Fu is to JKD. An original template for everything to grow from.

The STYLE is completely individual. This is where the changes happen, and what you are doing is simply 'your own thing' by the sound of it, possibly no different to your Sifu and his. Am I right?

Eric_H

03-19-2012, 10:31 AM

You do know the pictures your calling is bad...is from the YKS webpage right...

why you disrespecting them i suggest you check them out...

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/index.html

I don't think it's disrespectful, simply calling a spade a spade. FWIW, neither Wing Chun I've learned would consider those moves, especially that tan sao, to be well structured.

JPinAZ

03-19-2012, 12:48 PM

I don't think it's disrespectful, simply calling a spade a spade. FWIW, neither Wing Chun I've learned would consider those moves, especially that tan sao, to be well structured.

Exactly. No disrespect meant, just calling it as I see it. I don't care from where or who the picture is of, if the tan is low with a bent wrist & wrist contact, it's a 'bad tan sao' structure-wise in my book.
I see yoshi's boy stan doing this same sorta stuff, and we all see how wonderful his WC clips are... :rolleyes: ;)

Yoshiyahu

03-19-2012, 04:26 PM

Eric very well. Please share a picture of a Tan sau with connection to person limb or wooden man. An how you believe it should be. Now with that being said. Your utilization of Taan Sau is fine. But there is more than one way to Tan or Tan Da someone...There is outside gate and inner gate! Every lineage is different

I don't think it's disrespectful, simply calling a spade a spade. FWIW, neither Wing Chun I've learned would consider those moves, especially that tan sao, to be well structured.

Lone Tiger somethings are my own which might be application. i apply techniques differently. But as for training well thats the same. I apply techs different because my structure, speed and abilities are different. But yet an still its all the same as the original stuff!

Funny. I didn't say you did dude! I was merely throwing YOUR OWN words back atchya, as it sounded like you were saying that if I wanted to show Stan 'my real Wing Chun' then contact him or something!??

I enjoyed reading your other replies, and it is ever more clear to me what it is you are doing with your Wing Chun.

This post gives me a better picture of your understanding I think.

I believe The System is KEY. It can not be manipulated. It is fixed. It is more than what Ip Man taught in HK, and it has connections to both the Red Boats and Shaolin Temple, Kulo, Fatshan and the rest of the World through individual promotions! The System is, was and forever will be 'written down'. It's a map, if you like, of everything the original founder/s wanted to pass on.

If you want a modern interpretation, it is like what Bruce Lee's Jun Fan Gung Fu is to JKD. An original template for everything to grow from.

The STYLE is completely individual. This is where the changes happen, and what you are doing is simply 'your own thing' by the sound of it, possibly no different to your Sifu and his. Am I right?

JPinazz Bent Wrist is Tan Sau. Straight Wrist is Man Sau!

As for the wonderment of his WC clips. Where they are ten time better than your clips arent they?

Exactly. No disrespect meant, just calling it as I see it. I don't care from where or who the picture is of, if the tan is low with a bent wrist & wrist contact, it's a 'bad tan sao' structure-wise in my book.
I see yoshi's boy stan doing this same sorta stuff, and we all see how wonderful his WC clips are... :rolleyes: ;)

Horz

03-19-2012, 09:00 PM

Exactly. No disrespect meant, just calling it as I see it. I don't care from where or who the picture is of, if the tan is low with a bent wrist & wrist contact, it's a 'bad tan sao' structure-wise in my book.
I see yoshi's boy stan doing this same sorta stuff, and we all see how wonderful his WC clips are... :rolleyes: ;)

LOL - Sum Nung broke bones with that tan.
Very effective technique/structure used frequently across all wing chun from China.

LoneTiger108

03-20-2012, 09:24 AM

Lone Tiger somethings are my own which might be application. i apply techniques differently. But as for training well thats the same. I apply techs different because my structure, speed and abilities are different. But yet an still its all the same as the original stuff!

And by 'original stuff' do you mean what your Sifu taught you? A curriculum of Wing Chun?

I only ask because I see many many people saying they have been taught a 'mainland' variety of Wing Chun but once they go under the spotlight it's a different story.

With regards to this 'tansau' positioning, have a look at my first old clip 'An Introduction' and tell me (honestly!) if you have ever seen a drill like this before, done in the manner I am doing it, with the explanation I give...

http://www.flystudio.co.uk/media/film/film.html

JPinAZ

03-20-2012, 09:51 AM

LOL - Sum Nung broke bones with that tan.
Very effective technique/structure used frequently across all wing chun from China.

I'm sure people can make a bent wrist, wrist-contact tan sao work - people make lots of silly things 'work'. Looking at it from a structural pov, I'm not seeing it.

From my experience in HFY (and ignoring taan/bong/fook chi sau for a moment), taan sau typically gets its leverage from mid forearm contact with the energy going in a straight line from the elbow to the fingertips, up and fwd, and is used to 'spread' the incoming energy off centerline as you adjust your facing (taan sau staying on your own self-center). If you bend the wrist, then you change the direction of the 'energy'/intent and you loose leverage, it'sjust physics.

Even in Taan/Bong/Fook chi sau, if you use a bent wrist, you do not have proper fwd intent to neutralize fook sau and protect the gate.
But again, if people make it work, that's fine. Just from a leverage/energy/space occupation pov, a bent wrist taan sao has it's drawback. people will argue, but I'm entitled to my opinion :)

Out of curiousity, can you please tell me how someone 'broke bones' striking them with their bent wrist tan sau with contact at the wrist? IMO, hitting someone with a wrist that is bent will damage the wrist way before it damages a larger bone like a radius or an ulna for example.

Eric_H

03-20-2012, 10:33 AM

LOL - Sum Nung broke bones with that tan.
Very effective technique/structure used frequently across all wing chun from China.

What a silly comment. *All* Wing Chun comes from China... yet most don't use a broken-wrist type of tahn.

Do you have any evidence of this or am I to assume that the bones frequently broken all across china were actually Sum Nung's due to unsupportable wrist structure?

Eric_H

03-20-2012, 11:18 AM

JPinazz Bent Wrist is Tan Sau. Straight Wrist is Man Sau!

As for the wonderment of his WC clips. Where they are ten time better than your clips arent they?

That is not correct for Tahn vs Man.

Man sao can be a particular tool such as most Ip Man lineages have in their Chum Kiu form or can be a term to describe the leading hand.

Personally, I'd prefer no clips over bad ones. There is an old saying about keeping one's mouth closed and letting folks suspect you are an idiot rather than open it and let the world know for certain what kind of idiot you really are....

JPinAZ

03-20-2012, 11:26 AM

That is not correct for Tahn vs Man.

Man sao can be a particular tool such as most Ip Man lineages have in their Chum Kiu form or can be a term to describe the leading hand.

Personally, I'd prefer no clips over bad ones. There is an old saying about keeping one's mouth closed and letting folks suspect you are an idiot rather than open it and let the world know for certain what kind of idiot you really are....

hahaha, it's pretty obvious Yoshi has ever heard that saying before... :rolleyes:
I'm so happy ths clown is on my ignore list I don't have to read all of his daily garbage like "Bent Wrist is Tan Sau. Straight Wrist is Man Sau" I mean really?? WTF!
- Ignore is your friend, and don't feed the trolls :p

wingchunIan

03-20-2012, 01:55 PM

it's not the worst wing chun clip I've ever seen but it's pretty bad. Forget the wrist structure, I look at the rest of the body structure or lack of it and the big circular movements, not my cup of tea.

wtxs

03-20-2012, 02:48 PM

Well i been training WC since I was about 16 so that makes a little over 16 years. I trained privately with my Sifu for about five years. Then took a break from WC for about two years. But I still did sparring and chi sau with my sidai. Got back to training again publically with him when i was about 22 or 23. Somewhere around there. But also begin to doing Tai Chi, Baguazhang and Wing Chun. Basically it wasnt as formal concerning the WC just mere corrections. But i eventually started doing some training with his Sihing Mike Burnside. Also I started training with Stan around 27 or 29 years of age. Still See woody(My Sifu) from time to time. I am 35 now. Ne way let me digress. I do not only practice WC. But it is my based art. He started us off with some basic stuff in tiger and crane and the five elements. I didnt study that long enough to fight effiecently with it. But what i did learn i can apply with my Wing Chun.

I firmly believe I have authenic Wing Chun as you might insinuate from Real Wing Chun. I know the wing chun I learn is very good despite what some may believe from looking at Stans Videos. It is what it is. I will say our Wing Chun is very different from most of you. The principles alone is alien to what most of the people do on forums with the exceptions to a very few i have spoken with or read their post in various threads. That doesn't make others WC bad or good. Just different. I always say its not the system that matters but the indiviuals way of expressing it. The way I express, innovate and translate my Wing Chun is completely different than the way Stan Does his. I train differently than he does because I was taught differently, i am built differently and my persona and mindframe is different than his. So our WC will have similiaries but difference by way of expression. The same as your WC is different from your Sifu's and your WC brothers and sisters.

For someone claims to have over half of their life studying WC, you must have not been putting any time in doing your home work ... judging by all the nonsense you had posted ... and I won't even fault you teacher for teaching you all this crap.

LoneTiger108

03-22-2012, 06:09 AM

From my experience in HFY (and ignoring taan/bong/fook chi sau for a moment), taan sau typically gets its leverage from mid forearm contact with the energy going in a straight line from the elbow to the fingertips, up and fwd, and is used to 'spread' the incoming energy off centerline as you adjust your facing (taan sau staying on your own self-center). If you bend the wrist, then you change the direction of the 'energy'/intent and you loose leverage, it'sjust physics.

I would be very careful how you approach this 'energy' alignment thing because what you are saying here is totally dependant on understanding exactly what you are doing with your Yi (intent) and Yee (will) both of which affect your Hei (Chi-energies)

In a basic SLT, within our first set/section, the tansau which has it's fingers in line with the elbow does not have any intent or energies 'within the hand itself'. In fact the main concentration fme is to hold your Hei at the elbow and keep the forearm upwards totally relaxed and 'open'. This is only a basic practice to loosen the wrist joint so as huensau doesn't become too rigid. Once intent is in the hand and fingers itself you are adjusting the main concept of the basic form and taking the set itself into another dynamic. This will require both an understanding of CK and BJ, which I rarely see these days.

It isn't an incorrect practise, it's simply a practise that has been influenced already by our other forms so as long as you remain aware of that things are cool ;)

I will give what I think is a good example:

Many of Ip Mans later students never learnt Biu Jee. Fact.

So when you look at the way they develop and adjust their first form, it tends to have many Chum Kiu influences. Attempts to make each set a Sansau with practical uses etc by using the distancing and strategies from Chum Kiu.

One of the most popular Sifus I have seen to have this affect on their present generations is WSL. I see very little more advanced than Chum Kiu from this specific lineage, although he is spoken of with such high regard in the general community. I think this is because his SLT and CK knowledge was sound and better than many others. And that is a very good thing imho.

Woah! Just realized I've had a rant so apologies, and I suspect I will be attacked from all sides now from the WSL camp but I honestly mean no offence by this post, I am simply sharing my thoughts :o

Treznor

03-22-2012, 06:48 AM

I would be very careful how you approach this 'energy' alignment thing because what you are saying here is totally dependant on understanding exactly what you are doing with your Yi (intent) and Yee (will) both of which affect your Hei (Chi-energies)

In a basic SLT, within our first set/section, the tansau which has it's fingers in line with the elbow does not have any intent or energies 'within the hand itself'. In fact the main concentration fme is to hold your Hei at the elbow and keep the forearm upwards totally relaxed and 'open'. This is only a basic practice to loosen the wrist joint so as huensau doesn't become too rigid. Once intent is in the hand and fingers itself you are adjusting the main concept of the basic form and taking the set itself into another dynamic. This will require both an understanding of CK and BJ, which I rarely see these days.

It isn't an incorrect practise, it's simply a practise that has been influenced already by our other forms so as long as you remain aware of that things are cool ;)

I will give what I think is a good example:

Many of Ip Mans later students never learnt Biu Jee. Fact.

So when you look at the way they develop and adjust their first form, it tends to have many Chum Kiu influences. Attempts to make each set a Sansau with practical uses etc by using the distancing and strategies from Chum Kiu.

One of the most popular Sifus I have seen to have this affect on their present generations is WSL. I see very little more advanced than Chum Kiu from this specific lineage, although he is spoken of with such high regard in the general community. I think this is because his SLT and CK knowledge was sound and better than many others. And that is a very good thing imho.

Woah! Just realized I've had a rant so apologies, and I suspect I will be attacked from all sides now from the WSL camp but I honestly mean no offence by this post, I am simply sharing my thoughts :o

That's the most chilled out rant I've ever seen then :D

JPinAZ

03-22-2012, 08:30 AM

I would be very careful how you approach this 'energy' alignment thing because what you are saying here is totally dependant on understanding exactly what you are doing with your Yi (intent) and Yee (will) both of which affect your Hei (Chi-energies)

I think you may be taking my using the word 'energy' a little too literally. Does just 'intent' work better? :)

Anyway, in application, if your 'intent' is not throughout the whole arm, elbow thru to finger tips, the structure will collapse much easier. This is very easy to test. Of course the taan sau should be supported by proper elbow and body alignment along with the 'intent'.
In the form, it is the same thing. During the first section, We teach students to pass a pretty strong structure test on the taan sau throughout it's motion (where we will randomly slap into the forearm of the taan sau rather hard when they are not expecting it). If your 'intent' is not there, along with correct positioning of the elbow and hand according to HFY's sup ming dim (10 bright points), it's very easy to fail this test.

In a basic SLT, within our first set/section, the tansau which has it's fingers in line with the elbow does not have any intent or energies 'within the hand itself'. In fact the main concentration fme is to hold your Hei at the elbow and keep the forearm upwards totally relaxed and 'open'. This is only a basic practice to loosen the wrist joint so as huensau doesn't become too rigid. Once intent is in the hand and fingers itself you are adjusting the main concept of the basic form and taking the set itself into another dynamic. This will require both an understanding of CK and BJ, which I rarely see these days.

Your talking more of a learning progression, while I'm more referring to the end goal, what taan sau's end focus should be - which I think we are somewhat in agreement on. We teach our students to use on/off energy, including between many of the motions in SNT, so the rigid wrist thing like between taan and heun shouldn't be an issue and they can focus on the whole arm 'intent' from day one. Of course, not everyone 'gets it' in the beginning ;)

As for the CK/BJ understanding, everything I am referring to should all be in the SNT level learning. IMO, a practitioner should already have a decent structure and energy understanding from SNT training.

LoneTiger108

03-22-2012, 09:09 AM

Anyway, in application, if your 'intent' is not throughout the whole arm, elbow thru to finger tips, the structure will collapse much easier. This is very easy to test. Of course the taan sau should be supported by proper elbow and body alignment along with the 'intent'.

I think here lies the issue, because you are 'applying' your SLT first set in a sansau format? Learning how to use it as a technique, rather than a method?

And FWIW in 'application' the intent throughout the whole arm will vary depending on the exact angles and oncoming forces received (which in reality can be as different as a trained MMA fighter!) and this is covered in CK (in the Ip Man curriculum) and not within the learning of SLT.

I understand that your root doesn't pass through Ip Man, and you may have a very similar approach to your SLT as I do, but this shouldn't really affect the mechanics of the system itself. Only the way in which we learn how to develop the mechanics maybe.

In the form, it is the same thing. During the first section, We teach students to pass a pretty strong structure test on the taan sau throughout it's motion (where we will randomly slap into the forearm of the taan sau rather hard when they are not expecting it). If your 'intent' is not there, along with correct positioning of the elbow and hand according to HFY's sup ming dim (10 bright points), it's very easy to fail this test.

Okay this highlights my point even further.

So let's ask specifics:

1. Can/have you put a clip up of this structure test?
2. Are students using muscular strength to 'hold their positions'?
3. Have you heigung practises linked to this first set?

Your talking more of a learning progression, while I'm more referring to the end goal, what taan sau's end focus should be - which I think we are somewhat in agreement on.

I think we are on a similar page with regards to our end goal.

As for the CK/BJ understanding, everything I am referring to should all be in the SNT level learning. IMO, a practitioner should already have a decent structure and energy understanding from SNT training.

But this is where we may have massive differences.

I think I understand where you are coming from; you spend more time on the SLT to literally 'train' it thoroughly without learning CK and BJ but what I'm suggesting here is that you are ALREADY using the knowledge from CK & BJ to do this (from what you have described)

You just may not know that because you have a disconnection somewhere? Most pre-Ip Man schools I have seen do not have either CK or BJ forms in their curriculum and I only presume you HFY guys are the same no?

JPinAZ

03-22-2012, 11:15 AM

I think here lies the issue, because you are 'applying' your SLT first set in a sansau format? Learning how to use it as a technique, rather than a method?

No, you are making incorrect assumptions. I don't use taan sau 'as a technique'. It, like most principle-driven shapes in WC, is a reaction based on energy, position on the bridge and leverage needed to put myself in an advantageous position. The shape is just a result of what needs to be done - in this case with taan sau: spreading off the energy on the bridge.

And FWIW in 'application' the intent throughout the whole arm will vary depending on the exact angles and oncoming forces received (which in reality can be as different as a trained MMA fighter!) and this is covered in CK (in the Ip Man curriculum) and not within the learning of SLT.

Of course the energies will be dictated depending on what you're getting on the bridge, I never said otherwise. Now I think you might be arguing just to argue.

I understand that your root doesn't pass through Ip Man, and you may have a very similar approach to your SLT as I do, but this shouldn't really affect the mechanics of the system itself. Only the way in which we learn how to develop the mechanics maybe..

Actually, both Ip Man and HFY share the same original 'root' at some point, as does all WC, so there should be similarities. But you're right, we don't trace our lineage thru IP.

So let's ask specifics:

1. Can/have you put a clip up of this structure test?
2. Are students using muscular strength to 'hold their positions'?
3. Have you heigung practises linked to this first set?

Nope, no clip. but it's easy to do. just have them do SNT with thier eyes closed, walk around and give them a pretty good smack on their forearm when going thru taan sau. If they are using the correct intent and structure, their hand shouldn't smack their face.

Of course, there is some muscular strength in holding the position, there is no way to do anything with the body without some muscular support. Now, I've already explained how it works in my last post, but if you are trying to imply that they are surviving the challenge by 'muscling it', then you are just making silly assumptions to prove some point (?).
In WCK, you shouldn't have to muscle anything, that's what we have structure and fwd energy concept for.

I think we are on a similar page with regards to our end goal.

cool

But this is where we may have massive differences.

I think I understand where you are coming from; you spend more time on the SLT to literally 'train' it thoroughly without learning CK and BJ but what I'm suggesting here is that you are ALREADY using the knowledge from CK & BJ to do this (from what you have described)

You just may not know that because you have a disconnection somewhere? Most pre-Ip Man schools I have seen do not have either CK or BJ forms in their curriculum and I only presume you HFY guys are the same no?

I think most of the difficulties here start with the fact that you don't know much about HFY, which is fine. But instead of just asking questions, you are making assumptions and then commenting based on those incorrect assumptions.

HFY does in fact have SNT/CK/BJ as well as wooden dummy, the knives and 2 pole forms. And in a way you are correct on one of your guesses, we do not approach our training in the exact same way IP lines do with the linear SNT/CK/BJ fashion. Yes, there is some overlap of the concepts of the 3 hand forms during the training, but SNT is the meat of WCK's base concepts and ideas. You only really need CK/BJ if your SNT falls apart in a fight - this is the same as in IP line, yeah?
But that doesn't mean we ignore CK/BJ either - there are a lot of strategies and tactics held in those 2 forms, and some of them should be learned early on in one's training :)

LoneTiger108

03-22-2012, 02:14 PM

I think most of the difficulties here start with the fact that you don't know much about HFY, which is fine. But instead of just asking questions, you are making assumptions and then commenting based on those incorrect assumptions.

You may be right, I do jump to conclusions sometimes so it's good to talk things through as it only helps me understand your view too.

HFY does in fact have SNT/CK/BJ as well as wooden dummy, the knives and 2 pole forms. And in a way you are correct on one of your guesses, we do not approach our training in the exact same way IP lines do with the linear SNT/CK/BJ fashion. Yes, there is some overlap of the concepts of the 3 hand forms during the training, but SNT is the meat of WCK's base concepts and ideas. You only really need CK/BJ if your SNT falls apart in a fight - this is the same as in IP line, yeah?
But that doesn't mean we ignore CK/BJ either - there are a lot of strategies and tactics held in those 2 forms, and some of them should be learned early on in one's training :)

Thanks for at least trying to help my view of HFY and this is stuff I should already know but I get limited time to really look into every one elses varied ways of practising Wing Chun. FWIW I have learnt in a very similar fashion to what you describe here, and I consider myself to have direct connection to Ip Man through my Sifu and Sigung. Not every one of his students approached teaching in the same way, as we all know.

We are all connected, as you say, and I only wish we could all be more unified sometimes...

JPinAZ

03-23-2012, 09:18 AM

WTF! 2 people having an actual discussion on a Wing Chun thread?!? :eek::p

Hey, it's cool. I sometimes do the same thing with assumptions. Anyway, glad I could help clear some things up and give a better understanding of what we do. It's cool that we seem to share some similar approaches.

wtxs

03-23-2012, 09:33 AM

Yoshiyahu

03-29-2012, 01:34 PM

Yip Man Tan Sau

http://happehtheory.com/HappehKungFu/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/TanSauTriangle.jpg

http://www.wingchunkungfu.de/wingchun-lexikon/images/Zov34u76i-TanSau.jpg

YOU SEE BOTH HAVE A SLIGHT BENT...NOW THE CAUCASIAN VARIATION HAS IS ALOT STRAIGHTER THAN THESE TWO...

LOOK AT THE KWAN SAU...SEE THE BONG SAU AND THE TAN SAU HOW IT IS DIFFERENT. THERE ARE MULTIPLE REASONS WHY THE STRUCTURE IS THIS WAY....

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_biujee_pose.jpg

WITH THAT BEING SAID I SEE WE VIEW THINGS DIFFERENTLY ITS OKAY I WAS TRAINED DIFFERENT THAN YOU GUYS. ITS GOOD. LET ME ASKED A QUESTION WITH YOUR TAN SAU WHERE DOES THE ENERGY GO?

WHEN YOU TAHN SAU WHERE DOES YOUR OPPONENT ENERGY GO WITH THE TAAN. ARE YOU SENDING IT BACK TO HIM WITH YOUR STRUCTURE OR DOES THE ENERGY GO ELSEWHERE...

And by 'original stuff' do you mean what your Sifu taught you? A curriculum of Wing Chun?

I only ask because I see many many people saying they have been taught a 'mainland' variety of Wing Chun but once they go under the spotlight it's a different story.

With regards to this 'tansau' positioning, have a look at my first old clip 'An Introduction' and tell me (honestly!) if you have ever seen a drill like this before, done in the manner I am doing it, with the explanation I give...

http://www.flystudio.co.uk/media/film/film.html

That is not correct for Tahn vs Man.

Man sao can be a particular tool such as most Ip Man lineages have in their Chum Kiu form or can be a term to describe the leading hand.

Personally, I'd prefer no clips over bad ones. There is an old saying about keeping one's mouth closed and letting folks suspect you are an idiot rather than open it and let the world know for certain what kind of idiot you really are....

LFJ

03-29-2012, 08:57 PM

http://happehtheory.com/HappehKungFu/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/TanSauTriangle.jpg

http://www.wingchunkungfu.de/wingchun-lexikon/images/Zov34u76i-TanSau.jpg

YOU SEE BOTH HAVE A SLIGHT BENT...NOW THE CAUCASIAN VARIATION HAS IS ALOT STRAIGHTER THAN THESE TWO...

Actually, only the line from the elbow to the fingertips appears bent, but the wrist is in an anatomically correct straight position.

If you view your forearm from the side and make a straight line from your elbow to your fingertips, you will see the wrist joint is actually angled downward. If you pull the hand back you will then see the wrist align into a straight position, with the elbow in line with the base of the palm. Turn it over and that's Yip Man's taan sau with an anatomically correct straight wrist.

This is important, because if the fingertips were aligned with the elbow and forearm in a so-called "straight" wrist, the wrist would actually be angled upward in the taan sau position, sending energy upward instead of forward.

When the wrist is actually straight as I described, although the forearm and motion is slightly upward, the fingers point directly forward which projects the energy forward (lat sau jik chung). Taan sau is an attack hand, not just defense.

This picture, from that understanding is incorrect:

http://www.wingchunonline.com/images/Tan_Sao.jpg

However, hooking an opponent's arm with your wrist and the back of your hand as seen below, is even more incorrect. It is not the concept of "taan" at all.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_ritchie02_02.jpg

LOOK AT THE KWAN SAU...SEE THE BONG SAU AND THE TAN SAU HOW IT IS DIFFERENT. THERE ARE MULTIPLE REASONS WHY THE STRUCTURE IS THIS WAY....

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_biujee_pose.jpg

That's actually not kwan sau at all. The images url is: wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/sequences/sequences_biujee_pose.jpg

You see, it's a Biu Ji pose. It is a gaang/cham sau combination, not bong/taan sau. If you couldn't tell that from the illustration, at least the body position should have been a clue. Kwan sau doesn't roll that way.