Punching people in the face?

[JPinAZ]

Does anyone here think it's a good idea to punch people in the face using thier WCK? Do you think you could punch someone in the face with your WCK?
How would you do it? Would you use your fist? What is a fist? what is a face?

What if it was against a 'lowly MMA sport fighter'?
What if you were fighting a badd-a55 street thug on the streetz? Would it still work?

I think it would work easily against an MMA guy because from what I've read here on the forums, and from pretending I'm some hardened street thug with murders for relatives, not to mention all the murders that are friends of 'mines', you can't punch a street thug in the face, they are too good and too deadly. Besides, street thugs already know you are going to try to punch them in the face so they attack you from behind with an grenade launcher before you even know they are there!! Or, they would just rip you in half with thier bare hands like some 'unkles of mines!!!!!!!!

But against an MMA guy it would be soooo easy because I only would fight one in the streets, where they woudn't be able to defend it since they aren't in the ring and all and they only know how to defend punches to the face in the ring. They would forget how to defend themselves once they step out of the saftey of the cage and wham, lights out!!! OWNED!!!

Trolls need not apply/reply ;)

[mjw]

If I'm going to punch somebody it's going to be in the face maybe the body if it's open. Lets face it weep it effective so do it right and somewhere where it will work or count...

[k gledhill]

Does anyone here think it's a good idea to punch people in the face using thier WCK? Do you think you could punch someone in the face with your WCK?
How would you do it? Would you use your fist? What is a fist? what is a face?

What if it was against a 'lowly MMA sport fighter'?
What if you were fighting a badd-a55 street thug on the streetz? Would it still work?

I think it would work easily against an MMA guy because from what I've read here on the forums, and from pretending I'm some hardened street thug with murders for relatives, not to mention all the murders that are friends of 'mines', you can't punch a street thug in the face, they are too good and too deadly. Besides, street thugs already know you are going to try to punch them in the face so they attack you from behind with an grenade launcher before you even know they are there!! Or, they would just rip you in half with thier bare hands like some 'unkles of mines!!!!!!!!

But against an MMA guy it would be soooo easy because I only would fight one in the streets, where they woudn't be able to defend it since they aren't in the ring and all and they only know how to defend punches to the face in the ring. They would forget how to defend themselves once they step out of the saftey of the cage and wham, lights out!!! OWNED!!!

Trolls need not apply/reply ;)

belly laugh mao ~! :D perfect.

[Yoshiyahu]

In the streets. I usually use a knife, mace, or my taser. The kind with the electric current showing.

But if im near my car and cant get to gun i would use my screw driver, box cutter or hammer under the seat as i get the ride.


But as for street fighter being to unbeatable...Well thats why when i go to bad neighborhoods not only do i carry a fire stick. i posses up with a crew. In most cases i let the thug talk crap while my comrads get into posistion to flank him an dispatch him quickly with that old stump and dump...

So we can be ready for the next wave of would be knuckleheads...


But MMA guys...wow they are superior fighters. You can not defeat them. Not even with a gun. Let alone a punch of in the face...Every MMA guy i fought had iron faces...from repeately getting hit in the face you might break your hand hitting their iron faces...A MMA guys nose can cut your fist in half.

you cant defeat a MMA guy. He is too powerful. he can catch a bullet with his teeth. He can break your fist with his jaw. The only way you can defeat a MMA guy is out submit him. You have to take him down and submit him!

[Niersun]

In the streets. I usually use a knife, mace, or my taser. The kind with the electric current showing.

But if im near my car and cant get to gun i would use my screw driver, box cutter or hammer under the seat as i get the ride.


But as for street fighter being to unbeatable...Well thats why when i go to bad neighborhoods not only do i carry a fire stick. i posses up with a crew. In most cases i let the thug talk crap while my comrads get into posistion to flank him an dispatch him quickly with that old stump and dump...

So we can be ready for the next wave of would be knuckleheads...


But MMA guys...wow they are superior fighters. You can not defeat them. Not even with a gun. Let alone a punch of in the face...Every MMA guy i fought had iron faces...from repeately getting hit in the face you might break your hand hitting their iron faces...A MMA guys nose can cut your fist in half.

you cant defeat a MMA guy. He is too powerful. he can catch a bullet with his teeth. He can break your fist with his jaw. The only way you can defeat a MMA guy is out submit him. You have to take him down and submit him!

I would put my life savings on an "AMATEUR" MMA guy against you in a street fight.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I would put my life savings on an "AMATEUR" MMA guy against you in a street fight.

A five dollar bet? Why not come up with some real money if it is a sure thing?

[anerlich]

i posses up with a crew.

Get "RETARD" tatooed on all your foreheads.

[Tom Kagan]

The world would be a much better place if everyone, every once in a while, was punched in the face.

[JPinAZ]

How I wish the ignore function also ignored stuff quoted from those ignored... What a mess :rolleyes:


The world would be a much better place if everyone, every once in a while, was punched in the face.

haha, true enough. But the question is, how are you going to do it with your WC? Sadly enough, some people really need the help answering this one :p

[desertwingchun2]

Better question, What do you do when you get punched in the face?
Eyes tear, Flesh stings, Nose runs, Bloody iron taste in your mouth ..... What do you do??

[desertwingchun2]

The world would be a much better place if everyone, every once in a while, was punched in the face.

Unfortunate, but very true!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Better question, What do you do when you get punched in the face?
Eyes tear, Flesh stings, Nose runs, Bloody iron taste in your mouth ..... What do you do??

Hit the other guy back even harder and even more times.

[Wayfaring]

Better question, What do you do when you get punched in the face?
Eyes tear, Flesh stings, Nose runs, Bloody iron taste in your mouth ..... What do you do??

Keep my chin down to intercept incoming punches with my forehead as opposed to my eyes, nose, and mouth.

Because, as aptly illustrated by this forum, the densest part of the human body is a man's head.

[free2flow]

Hit the other guy back even harder and even more times.
I didn't the first time, the mind took over to check if my nose was broken :). Sparring helped to get used to the hit and reprogram to do as you said. My sifu's complain is I don't have enough aggression, empty-handed. If I have something in my hand, for some reason I naturally become more aggressive. We'll I train more frequently and as a result get more contact with sticks and knife training than with empty-hands maybe that's why.

[k gledhill]

Keep my chin down to intercept incoming punches with my forehead as opposed to my eyes, nose, and mouth.

Because, as aptly illustrated by this forum, the densest part of the human body is a man's head.

Unless the guy hitting you knows to use an open hand strike, with 100% force...Then a bony forehead doesnt matter like it would to guys who only know to use knuckles.
No broken hands. Its not slapping either ;)

[Wayfaring]

Unless the guy hitting you knows to use an open hand strike, with 100% force...Then a bony forehead doesnt matter like it would to guys who only know to use knuckles.
No broken hands. Its not slapping either ;)

I know this response is just setting me up so that k can post more "Three Stooges" pictures.

Why don't you post up a vid of you demonstrating this technique? I will promise to give it 5 stars ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Unless the guy hitting you knows to use an open hand strike, with 100% force...Then a bony forehead doesnt matter like it would to guys who only know to use knuckles.
No broken hands. Its not slapping either ;)

Rather take a shot on the forehead than any place on the face.
Also, anglening the head to take a shot on the forehead ( which is NOT between the eyes) also puts the neck and head in better position to take the percussive effect of impact.

[Yoshiyahu]

Get "RETARD" tatooed on all your foreheads.

anerlich i got thug life tattooed on my head when i was teenager...so i dont have any room...



I would put my life savings on an "AMATEUR" MMA guy against you in a street fight.

Your right...all MMA guys are unbeatable. The only way to beat an mma guy is to learn MMA.


The world would be a much better place if everyone, every once in a while, was punched in the face.

Thats why i make sure I get punched in the face atleast once a week!!!


Better question, What do you do when you get punched in the face?
Eyes tear, Flesh stings, Nose runs, Bloody iron taste in your mouth ..... What do you do??



Well me. I put some dit da jow on my face before and after getting punched.. I stand straight up an squench the muslces in my face 500 times every morning to build my face up..As the punch comes for my face no matter where it hits i squench my face muscles to repel the force. I use my stance to root and channel the force and power of the punch down to the ground. My goal is to develop diamond face shield after my iron face shield is mastered. My gung Fu is Strong. I can with-stand several blows to Face with out being moved from my stance...My gung fu is very strong..you dont want to mess with me!

[JPinAZ]

hey guys, stop turning this into a real thread - that's not the way it's supposed to be going! :p

[anerlich]

anerlich i got thug life tattooed on my head when i was teenager...so i dont have any room...


Yes, for some reason I have always imagined you with a small forehead.

[Phil Redmond]

Head (yang), fist (yang). Body (yin), palm (yin). It's best not to use yang against yang. That's why the only punches on the jong regardless of lineage, are to the body. All the strikes to the "head" use palms.

[GlennR]

Yes, for some reason I have always imagined you with a small forehead.

Yep, and with a 45 degree slope on it

[Yoshiyahu]

Yep, and with a 45 degree slope on it


He brother get out my pants...stop talking about my second head!


Head (yang), fist (yang). Body (yin), palm (yin). It's best not to use yang against yang. That's why the only punches on the jong regardless of lineage, are to the body. All the strikes to the "head" use palms.

What about this video punching the dummy in the head?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvj3a4lanaQ



Yes, for some reason I have always imagined you with a small forehead.



No just got some big print....THUG LIFE

[stonecrusher69]

Head (yang), fist (yang). Body (yin), palm (yin). It's best not to use yang against yang. That's why the only punches on the jong regardless of lineage, are to the body. All the strikes to the "head" use palms.

I agree palm strikes are used to the head and punches to the body on the jong, but punching to he head is a very common technique. Even the basic Lop sao drill,I was told was to the head. Of couse it could be also to the body as well.

[desertwingchun2]

Punching to the face with a bare fist can be very painful for the guy doing the punching. Straight punches especially. A good hay-maker to the side of the head, well not so much.

Just my $.02

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree palm strikes are used to the head and punches to the body on the jong, but punching to he head is a very common technique. Even the basic Lop sao drill,I was told was to the head. Of couse it could be also to the body as well.

check this video out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvj3a4lanaQ



Punching to the face with a bare fist can be very painful for the guy doing the punching. Straight punches especially. A good hay-maker to the side of the head, well not so much.

Just my $.02

lol have you ever punched someone in the face before?

Do you hit a punching bag and wall bag?

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .

What about this video punching the dummy in the head?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvj3a4lanaQ . . . .
I see that. In the YMWCK form there's no punch to the head.

[Phil Redmond]

I agree palm strikes are used to the head and punches to the body on the jong, but punching to he head is a very common technique. Even the basic Lop sao drill,I was told was to the head. Of couse it could be also to the body as well.
Sure, you can train you fists to punch to the head. The Japanese use a Makirawa board.
Btw, Tyson broke his hand hitting to the head in a street fight in Harlem.

[Vajramusti]

I see that. In the YMWCK form there's no punch to the head.
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Once the wing chun punch is properly developed you can punch wherever and whenever there is an open lime IMO.
Also in chum kiu after the last bong wu /kwan sequence there is a short and sweet Tyson like upper cut


joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

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Once the wing chun punch is properly developed you can punch wherever and whenever there is an open lime IMO.
Also in chum kiu after the last bong wu /kwan sequence there is a short and sweet Tyson like upper cut


joy chaudhuri


Not an upper cut. I know it looks like it...There are a lot of CK actions performed as the inception of attacks, iow the critical points are focused on at the starting point of geometric alignment prior to synchronized execution in later drills and fighting.
CK gives us a unity of facing, turning with elbow / hip focus. Not kata, like, and now I uppercut you from a bong sao while facing away from where I just bonged you...???

Its simply a sequence , a line of force re-centering and recovering the elbow from a raised elbow position of bong... slightly extending for a jut that follows refacing ....same as SLT, tan goes slightly forwards, just so jut sao comes back from slight extension.

Because its done as we sharply align the hips in sync with the elbows, many assume its a 'kata' move or uppercut. Hip and elbow meet at the same time, not one before or after, dynamics along axis rotation/facing combined. Lot of power there with good timing.

The hip driving into the elbow is allowed to extend slightly so the 'following' jut sao with body axis rotation can jut 'backwards' from the slight extension of the previous action....no uppercuts in VT, we CUT through lines of force in an entirely different way.

its only my opinion , I know...

[Phil Redmond]

Not an upper cut. I know it looks like it....its only my opinion , I know...
Ok, your WC doesn't have an uppercut but some Wing Chun lineages do have an uppercut. It's illogical to think that one WC lineage is "the" authority on all WC.

[k gledhill]

Ok, your WC doesn't have an uppercut but some Wing Chun lineages do have an uppercut. It's illogical to think that one WC lineage is "the" authority on all WC.


We use cutting straight line intercepting punches and then ...why would there be an uppercut in the last part of a form section just thrown in randomly ?

You know CK is SLT with movement, so where is the uppercut in the SLT ?

[YouKnowWho]

Does anyone here think it's a good idea to punch people in the face ...

Old Chinese saying said, "If you don't hit your opponent's head (not just face), you may have to fight him from sun raise until sun set".

[k gledhill]

Old Chinese saying said, "If you don't hit your opponent's head (not just face), you may have to fight him from sun raise until sun set".

:D good saying.

[Phil Redmond]

We use cutting straight line intercepting punches and then ...why would there be an uppercut in the last part of a form section just thrown in randomly ?

You know CK is SLT with movement, so where is the uppercut in the SLT ?
I'm watching a WSL CK vid now.Where is the arm break in SLT? Where are the kicks, the central line bong sao, the low bong sao? btw, there is no uppercut in my CK either. But that doesn't mean other WC people are wrong if they use it.

[k gledhill]

I'm watching a WSL CK vid now.Where is the arm break in SLT? Where are the kicks, the central line bong sao, the low bong sao? btw, there is no uppercut in my CK either. But that doesn't mean other WC people are wrong if they use it.


Kicking is bridging a gap...

Jut and tan can be a Jip sao combination, each in SLT. But its a 'move' not the primary reason for the dual action of a jut over a tan.

There is only ONE bong sao, guided by logic of use at any degree of variation in the arc of its useful motion, RELATIVE to the height of the person and the attacking limb to yours, etc...not 3 bongs, its unlimited bongs :D Where and why is decided by your opponent not thought of high ? low? no middle, no wait ! 45 deg raising shifting , refacing another way bong ....doh !


Glad to hear you dont do an uppercut too ; ) our elbows find center as they reach the apex of the turns to unify forces, train balance with movement and ballistic force.

[EternalSpring]

LOL @ the invincible streets and punching street fighters in the face :p

those guys have guns!

but hadoukens > guns ;)

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1163366]We use cutting straight line intercepting punches and then ...why would there be an uppercut in the last part of a form section just thrown in randomly ?

---------------------------------------------
It's ok for you to do it your way. Pointless to comment on others when you don't understand what they do. The so called uppercut is not thrown in at random in the chum kiu form. When the bong comes down into the sinking motion the forward drilling trajectory easily can continue into a short power punch to the face with the chor ma/ chum kiu. Good mechanics and flow is the key.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1163366]We use cutting straight line intercepting punches and then ...why would there be an uppercut in the last part of a form section just thrown in randomly ?

---------------------------------------------
It's ok for you to do it your way. Pointless to comment on others when you don't understand what they do. The so called uppercut is not thrown in at random in the chum kiu form. When the bong comes down into the sinking motion the forward drilling trajectory easily can continue into a short power punch to the face with the chor ma/ chum kiu. Good mechanics and flow is the key.

joy chaudhuri

Not an upper cut ... In SLT , dan chi-sao, chi-sao...CK...MYJ....We all do a bong and the drop the elbow to center to strike from center....same throughout the system. For a reason.
NO altered action just for random uppercut idea.

Saying 'shut up and mind your own business' wont change the fact :D

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1163394]

Not an upper cut ... In SLT , dan chi-sao, chi-sao...CK...MYJ....We all do a bong and the drop the elbow to center to strike from center....same throughout the system. For a reason.
NO altered action just for random uppercut idea.

Saying 'shut up and mind your own business' wont change the fact :D
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Won't change your perception. True!!

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1163397]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Won't change your perception. True!!

joy chaudhuri

On a more positive direction, I feel the reason many assume this action to be an uppercut comes from missing striking concepts early on. Jum and tan elbows.

Many trainees never fully understand the jum concept alone. A punching concept.

The re-centered elbow is adopting a position for jum or tan , but without the 'thinking' behind the actions, it is left for the uninformed to try and correlate the action to an...uppercut .

It might change your perception to conceptual striking ideas, instead of an 'upper cut' in VT.

[Tom Kagan]

But the question is, how are you going to do it with your WC? Sadly enough, some people really need the help answering this one :p

http://www.bullshido.net/gallery/data/500/tkwc.jpeg

[Yoshiyahu]

Phil so How do you train your fist to condition to punch the head?


Sure, you can train you fists to punch to the head. The Japanese use a Makirawa board.
Btw, Tyson broke his hand hitting to the head in a street fight in Harlem.


Joy lol...not the same energy as a upper cut tyson a boxer would through. But an upper cut like punch all the same.


-------------------------------------------------------
Once the wing chun punch is properly developed you can punch wherever and whenever there is an open lime IMO.
Also in chum kiu after the last bong wu /kwan sequence there is a short and sweet Tyson like upper cut


joy chaudhuri

So true...Some people just think theirs is be all to end all...


Ok, your WC doesn't have an uppercut but some Wing Chun lineages do have an uppercut. It's illogical to think that one WC lineage is "the" authority on all WC.


Thats right you use a cutting straight line intercepting the punches. Not every one does just that one application of Bong to raising fist in chum kiu.

In fact in my SLT we have an upper cut in it...lol...There is an upper cut motions in both the innovated one and the one my Sifu taught me. We also have another form called Ma Form that also has an upper cut. This technique we refer to as split the lip.

The problem is see with your rant is your purely a principle based stylist more or less.

Where i rely on both principle and technique..I was never taught one size fits all. I was taught with in the forms there are numerous applications to each technique. Every Block can be a strike and every strike could be a block. I know you guys dont use the word block but i do. Let me also share. With in the SLT there are also techniques know as Tie Sau and Tok Sau. Which are raising and lifting hands. These techinques can intercept attacks, cut off attacks, uproot or distablize your opponents structure, centre and posture. As well as be used as strikes. Just as they are or modified with a fist.

Look at Lop Sau with rolling fist.

Lop sau is not a back fist. it simply means grabbing hand. When you grab the hand downward you roll your fist upward to the opponents face. Thats where you have the back fist. Its two techiques been done at once. You can lop sau with a palm strike, sun fist or even a bil gee. The energy of lop sau is more subtle than that of jut sau. But you can implement a rolling back fist with jut sau too. there are numerous applications you can either drill with a partner or apply while fighting. There is No one size fits all buddy.

which means there is no one application for each technique in the form.

Look at the various versions of Sil Lim Tau. Everyone has something a little different. Either the energy is different or certain techniques are different or the principle behind the form is performed is different. Everyone has their own innovations. Even among brothers let alone different sifus. Different intrepreations to One simply form?

If their are myriad of different ways to do the movements of SLT why cant their be a myriad of ways to apply the techniques found with in the Sil Lim Tau.

In conclusion I see nothing wrong with the way you use the rising fist in Chum Kiu. Kudos for that. But its not merely the only way to do it. If people have ten different ways to perform the same technique i think knowing atleast have of them is worthwhile than only knowing one way!




We use cutting straight line intercepting punches and then ...why would there be an uppercut in the last part of a form section just thrown in randomly ?

You know CK is SLT with movement, so where is the uppercut in the SLT ?

[k gledhill]

Phil so How do you train your fist to condition to punch the head?




Joy lol...not the same energy as a upper cut tyson a boxer would through. But an upper cut like punch all the same.



So true...Some people just think theirs is be all to end all...




Thats right you use a cutting straight line intercepting the punches. Not every one does just that one application of Bong to raising fist in chum kiu.

In fact in my SLT we have an upper cut in it...lol...There is an upper cut motions in both the innovated one and the one my Sifu taught me. We also have another form called Ma Form that also has an upper cut. This technique we refer to as split the lip.

The problem is see with your rant is your purely a principle based stylist more or less.

Where i rely on both principle and technique..I was never taught one size fits all. I was taught with in the forms there are numerous applications to each technique. Every Block can be a strike and every strike could be a block. I know you guys dont use the word block but i do. Let me also share. With in the SLT there are also techniques know as Tie Sau and Tok Sau. Which are raising and lifting hands. These techinques can intercept attacks, cut off attacks, uproot or distablize your opponents structure, centre and posture. As well as be used as strikes. Just as they are or modified with a fist.

Look at Lop Sau with rolling fist.

Lop sau is not a back fist. it simply means grabbing hand. When you grab the hand downward you roll your fist upward to the opponents face. Thats where you have the back fist. Its two techiques been done at once. You can lop sau with a palm strike, sun fist or even a bil gee. The energy of lop sau is more subtle than that of jut sau. But you can implement a rolling back fist with jut sau too. there are numerous applications you can either drill with a partner or apply while fighting. There is No one size fits all buddy.

which means there is no one application for each technique in the form.

Look at the various versions of Sil Lim Tau. Everyone has something a little different. Either the energy is different or certain techniques are different or the principle behind the form is performed is different. Everyone has their own innovations. Even among brothers let alone different sifus. Different intrepreations to One simply form?

If their are myriad of different ways to do the movements of SLT why cant their be a myriad of ways to apply the techniques found with in the Sil Lim Tau.

In conclusion I see nothing wrong with the way you use the rising fist in Chum Kiu. Kudos for that. But its not merely the only way to do it. If people have ten different ways to perform the same technique i think knowing atleast have of them is worthwhile than only knowing one way!

You're completely clueless....:D

[Phil Redmond]

Kicking is bridging a gap...



There is only ONE bong sao, . .
There is a gou, jung, dai bong. But of course you use it where it's needed.




Glad to hear you dont do an uppercut too ; ) . . .
I said that there is none in our form. Not that I wouldn't use one.

[Phil Redmond]

On a more positive direction, I feel the reason many assume this action to be an uppercut comes from missing striking concepts early on....
So are you're saying that all the Sifus around the world who teach the uppercut are "missing striking concepts" and that only you and your lineage really understand Wing Chun? Does Philipp Bayer teach that only he has the real Wing Chun or is it just you who thinks so?

[sanjuro_ronin]

The uppercut is one of the most effective inside hand strikes ( or arm depending on the target surface used of course), one that every system has and what a sad statement on WC it would be IF WC didn't have it.
I mean, why on earth would a system NOT use a technique that has been proven to be highly effective over 1000's of years ???

[k gledhill]

There is a gou, jung, dai bong. But of course you use it where it's needed.




I said that there is none in our form. Not that I wouldn't use one.

Equally , why limit oneself .... :D No Limit as limit.

[k gledhill]

So are you're saying that all the Sifus around the world who teach the uppercut are "missing striking concepts" and that only you and your lineage really understand Wing Chun? Does Philipp Bayer teach that only he has the real Wing Chun or is it just you who thinks so?

There is a striking concept many are missing , yes. lin sil di da .

[Vajramusti]

The uppercut is one of the most effective inside hand strikes ( or arm depending on the target surface used of course), one that every system has and what a sad statement on WC it would be IF WC didn't have it.
I mean, why on earth would a system NOT use a technique that has been proven to be highly effective over 1000's of years ???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True. And systems, styles and relevant lineages have their own mechanics for doing so and so does my wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

Some add hooks from bong sao too ....why not just make it boxing ? add bobbing and weaving and hey presto all the unhappy people will be happy again, and have hammer fists , because thats one of the most useful attacks. Oh wait lets add spinning reverse elbows !! We can make chi-sao dirty clinching and all be happy ever after with lots of DVD sales :D

Sticky dirty boxing uppercut DVD series ;)

[Phil Redmond]

There is a striking concept many are missing , yes. lin sil di da . All WC people understand simultaneous striking and blocking. But it can't be done on every occasion. Sometimes your "resisting" opponent won't allow it. A Boxer's weaving, slipping, and bobbing are a good example of that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wasn't it WSL that mentioned that he was criticized by some WC people when he won a fight with a knee strike because WC "had no knees"?
I believe I read that as he was speaking about the misconceptions some WC people have about what is and isn't WC...

[sanjuro_ronin]

So 'based on the view of SOME WC people, WC does NOT have:
Hooks, uppercuts, knees and elbows.
4 Techniques that have been proven to be very effective over and over again.
Makes one wonder why some peoples version of WC is so, well, limited and why they wouldn't use proven CLOSE RANGE fighting techniques in a close range fighting system *puzzled look*

[Phil Redmond]

Some add hooks from bong sao too ....why not just make it boxing ? add bobbing and weaving and hey presto all the unhappy people will be happy again, and have hammer fists , because thats one of the most useful attacks. Oh wait lets add spinning reverse elbows !! We can make chi-sao dirty clinching and all be happy ever after with lots of DVD sales :D

Sticky dirty boxing uppercut DVD series ;)
So I guess you're referring to what we do. Yes, we do have a round punch and sometime it can be used after a bong lop. Especially if your target is the side of the mask in order to get knock out. Our guys have knocked people out with it so we're keeping it regardless of it's popularity. ;)

[Phil Redmond]

So 'based on the view of SOME WC people, WC does NOT have:
Hooks, uppercuts, knees and elbows.
4 Techniques that have been proven to be very effective over and over again.
Makes one wonder why some peoples version of WC is so, well, limited and why they wouldn't use proven CLOSE RANGE fighting techniques in a close range fighting system *puzzled look*
People who don't try their WC against resisting opponents from other systems of fighting have all sorts of beliefs/theories/dogma. Yet they tend to preach to those who do pressure test. :rolleyes:

[Phil Redmond]

Wasn't it WSL that mentioned that he was criticized by some WC people when he won a fight with a knee strike because WC "had no knees"?
I believe I read that as he was speaking about the misconceptions some WC people have about what is and isn't WC...
So according to some WSL was wrong since there is no knee in any of the forms . . .lol

[Vajramusti]

So 'based on the view of SOME WC people, WC does NOT have:
Hooks, uppercuts, knees and elbows.
4 Techniques that have been proven to be very effective over and over again.
Makes one wonder why some peoples version of WC is so, well, limited and why they wouldn't use proven CLOSE RANGE fighting techniques in a close range fighting system *puzzled look*
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjuro-
No one can speak for all of wing chun. I do wing chun..I don't graft on things that conflict with my
wing chun structure, mechanics and dynamics. I don't do KG's version of PB's version of WC.
Hooks, uppercuts, knees and elbows are there in my hand forms and the dummy form- the knees are specially in the later sections of the dummy form and my sigung learned these things from Ip Man himself with whom he spent many long hours...before Ip chun joined his father. I respect Ip Man's students but there were differences among them on when, how and what they learned
from the grande maestro.
And what I do does not violate wc principles of simultaneity of attack.defense, motion linkages,
dealing with what comes etc. My wc is not western boxing. Words may be the same but the details of motions are style specific.
KG cannot generalize for every lineage of wing chun -though he tries.Just as I don't speak for what PB does.pr KG does or VK does.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

Using the 'knee' event doesnt change the action in CK to be an uppercut.... not having every strike known to man in the form either doesnt mean VT wouldnt use something like it ....if the situation allowed the time to think about it, sure why not.
I have had fights that I repeatedly upper cutted a guy covering up froman attack...I have elbowed too, eye jabbed :eek: hit guys with bottles , chairs, kicked guys in the heads as they tried to get up again....not in the form.:D

Now class the bar stool form with bottle smash, and with me....:D

But then the form isnt a kata :D its unifying an idea with mobility and angling. Why doesnt the chum kil have a hook ? or a knee lift ? or an uppercut ...:D

Conceptually driven skills for combat with any other skill set. We dont see guys as a 'boxer' or a kick boxer simply because VT is dealing with the idea you DONT have foreknowledge of the skill set before you in the opponents....
We would have a telephone book full of potential moves for every occasion along with every striking action known to man.

[k gledhill]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sanjuro-
No one can speak for all of wing chun. I do wing chun..I don't graft on things that conflict with my
wing chun structure, mechanics and dynamics. I don't do KG's version of PB's version of WC.
Hooks, uppercuts, knees and elbows are there in my hand forms and the dummy form- the knees are specially in the later sections of the dummy form and my sigung learned these things from Ip Man himself with whom he spent many long hours...before Ip chun joined his father. I respect Ip Man's students but there were differences among them on when, how and what they learned
from the grande maestro.
And what I do does not violate wc principles of simultaneity of attack.defense, motion linkages,
dealing with what comes etc. My wc is not western boxing. Words may be the same but the details of motions are style specific.
KG cannot generalize for every lineage of wing chun -though he tries.Just as I don't speak for what PB does.pr KG does or VK does.

joy chaudhuri


Joys chosen way doesnt share the same concepts as mine, agreed.

[Eric_H]

Really guys? We're arguing about a technique in WC, the "concept and principal based" art?

If you can maintain the basics of WC when you do it, then it belongs - if not, then it doesn't. What could be more simple???

[sanjuro_ronin]

Really guys? We're arguing about a technique in WC, the "concept and principal based" art?

If you can maintain the basics of WC when you do it, then it belongs - if not, then it doesn't. What could be more simple???

As this and so many other discussions have shown, no it's not that simple.

[LoneTiger108]

I'm kinda enjoying the ranting from all sides... :D

Reminds me why I'm glad I learnt Wing Chun in London! :)

[k gledhill]

Arguing ? healthy debate . forum chatter :D What! no reverse spinning elbows , you're crazy , you are :D We have 12 elbows in our VT :D And a back flip to hit the guy on the back of the head as we fly over him..not in the form.


Then telepathic fighting CLIP (http://youtu.be/FHtjgYWlizA)

[JPinAZ]

Really guys? We're arguing about a technique in WC, the "concept and principal based" art?

If you can maintain the basics of WC when you do it, then it belongs - if not, then it doesn't. What could be more simple???

Good post.
What I find a little amusing is it's happening on a thread that was supposed to be meant as a joke :o ahh well, on second though, maybe this is the thread to argue techniques eh?

[k gledhill]

DP CK ..........Clip (http://youtu.be/T-OfIPKUCyw)

you can see the bong to elbow in, then extension to jut axis rotation... looks like a uppercut but its not the 'idea'.
We dont do two low bongs at an attacker either, another idea being worked...
Same with fac sao off body....followed by elbows in,etc

[Vajramusti]

DP CK ..........Clip (http://youtu.be/T-OfIPKUCyw)

you can see the bong to elbow in, then extension to jut axis rotation... looks like a uppercut but its not the 'idea'.
We dont do two low bongs at an attacker either, another idea being worked...
Same with fac sao off body....followed by elbows in,etc
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on what you mean by idea..the epistemology. There are some differences in details between WSL and Ho Kam Ming's chum kiu and HKM 's wing chun is very compact,crisp and concept based and effective as well.

I respect WSL's fighting history. Even in David's chum kiu the motion -angle/direction etc is there to provide the foundation for a wing chun version of the upper cut.

Good form gives us plenty of ideas, coordination, flow, control and concepts. As in good conceptual models- the relation between concept and operational meanings is 0ne-many, not just one-one. Just as the idea of internal combustion can lead to a variety of engineering achievements. Does not give us the license to do junk but the richness of operational meanings of a concept should not be underestimated.The boxing uppercut and a good wing chun upper cut
has differences in details and some quite general similarities. The power train is different.
Because of stance, structure and body dynamics, a good wing chun upper cut can be used much closer in than in boxing- even when touching.

Of course it takes hours of proper practice to develop skills.

joy chaudhuri

[m1k3]

In case anyone is interested, you don't have to hit with all your force to the face. A decent medium punch to the snotbucket will stop a lot of people in their tracks without having to do serious damage or go for a KO.

:)

[Vajramusti]

In case anyone is interested, you don't have to hit with all your force to the face. A decent medium punch to the snotbucket will stop a lot of people in their tracks without having to do serious damage or go for a KO.

:)
---------------------------------------
Thx.Yes, I know -there are many ways to skin that cat. But my main interest is in the wing chun way.

joy chaudhuri

[m1k3]

Being serious, why couldn't you throw a WC style vertical punch to the nose at less than full power? I like the vertical punch especially for bare knuckle punching. Just seems to me that would be a valid answer in WC.

[desertwingchun2]

Being serious, why couldn't you throw a WC style vertical punch to the nose at less than full power? I like the vertical punch especially for bare knuckle punching. Just seems to me that would be a valid answer in WC.

My only issue with punching straight to the face is the other guys teeth or forehead. I have one scar about 3/8" on my ring finger knuckle from a tooth. I have also have a busted pinky knuckle (which makes my pinky stick out at a 45 degree angle) from strikes to the cranium. I have also seen, way too many times, busted swollen knuckles from hay-makers to the face.

IMO hooks to the dome are pretty effective and have less probability of hurting your hand.

I think I'm up to $.04 now.

[LoneTiger108]

DP CK ..........Clip (http://youtu.be/T-OfIPKUCyw)

you can see the bong to elbow in, then extension to jut axis rotation... looks like a uppercut but its not the 'idea'.

A nice Chum Kiu imho but in a totally different universe to my own ;)

I do understand your view here about this 'uppercut' thing, as I too was initial taught this particular section was NOT about striking with the fist. Actually more about using the inside crease of the elbow for crossing under a bridge that is trying to hold you. But later in your own development many people see the 'similarity' to the uppercut 'punch' because the body mechanics are almost identical.

I tend to drill such uppercut punches with our pole work, as Chao Gwan is a very famous set in other systems and we have something similar in our 6.5. Then there is nothing like a tyre wrapped round a heavy bag to give you that contact!

I am also of the opinion that we (Wing Chun schools) do not promote 'punching to the face' to beginners at all because of all the risks highlighted in this thread (well they're here somewhere lol!) BUT if you have drilled the fist and you are accurate and fast enough I see no problem in smacking the old boat race in order to finish a confrontation quickly. And fme (yes I do have some lol!) I have had old boys crying from a simple flick to the nose so to crush their bones with my rheumitic knuckles seems a little bit OTT :D

[Vajramusti]

Being serious, why couldn't you throw a WC style vertical punch to the nose at less than full power? I like the vertical punch especially for bare knuckle punching. Just seems to me that would be a valid answer in WC.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Yes-You can with full power as well if you develop short power. But different punches have different angles - depends on what lines are open or can be skillfully opened.


joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1163674]

I am also of the opinion that we (Wing Chun schools) do not promote 'punching to the face' to beginners at all because of all the risks highlighted in this thread (well they're here somewhere lol!)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

?????????????

IMO- important yo learn having control over your motions. You don't have to hit a home run every time.

joy c

[m1k3]

---------------------------------------------------------------
Yes-You can with full power as well if you develop short power. But different punches have different angles - depends on what lines are open or can be skillfully opened.


joy chaudhuri

Thank you for the answer.

[k gledhill]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on what you mean by idea..the epistemology. There are some differences in details between WSL and Ho Kam Ming's chum kiu and HKM 's wing chun is very compact,crisp and concept based and effective as well.

I respect WSL's fighting history. Even in David's chum kiu the motion -angle/direction etc is there to provide the foundation for a wing chun version of the upper cut.

Good form gives us plenty of ideas, coordination, flow, control and concepts. As in good conceptual models- the relation between concept and operational meanings is 0ne-many, not just one-one. Just as the idea of internal combustion can lead to a variety of engineering achievements. Does not give us the license to do junk but the richness of operational meanings of a concept should not be underestimated.The boxing uppercut and a good wing chun upper cut
has differences in details and some quite general similarities. The power train is different.
Because of stance, structure and body dynamics, a good wing chun upper cut can be used much closer in than in boxing- even when touching.

Of course it takes hours of proper practice to develop skills.

joy chaudhuri

Seeing things and trying to make a 1:1 rationale without fundamental knowledge is exactly my point.

Boxing and VT arent the same. We develop multitasking striking ability by unifying certain angles and motions with elbow positions. 101 basic idea.

So it is critical to my functioning fighting ideas /concepts that I have a form/drill I can practice facing and rotational force generation without losing the elbow center as I generate the forces.

Anyone and their mom can do an uppercut turning without a form to do it in :D The reasons for the form are unity of hip/centered elbow/facing in one action, rotating back with the same unity of hip elbow...repeat. Also done in chi-sao , dummy arm contact with elbow area. Why touch the dummy arms if your trying to use an uppercut to hit like boxing ? Why not box instead of doing chi-sao to develop lin sil di da techniques ?

Iow I isolate the dynamics of the unification in a CK from, ..I DONT just suddenly do an uppercut :D here have that , uppercut, why not follow with a hook on the drawn hand as a sequence in CK ? That seems logical ....

There's nothing wrong with uppercuts, I have used them in fights, they just WONT have the underlying ability VT has on their own to simultaneously attack and defend in one action.

If you do upper cut you see that lifting the elbow also makes a hole back to your center defense..you open yourself up if you miss.. 1cm or death.

[WC1277]

Seeing things and trying to make a 1:1 rationale without fundamental knowledge is exactly my point.

Boxing and VT arent the same. We develop multitasking striking ability by unifying certain angles and motions with elbow positions. 101 basic idea.

So it is critical to my functioning fighting ideas /concepts that I have a form/drill I can practice facing and rotational force generation without losing the elbow center as I generate the forces.

Anyone and their mom can do an uppercut turning without a form to do it in :D The reasons for the form are unity of hip/centered elbow/facing in one action, rotating back with the same unity of hip elbow...repeat. Also done in chi-sao , dummy arm contact with elbow area. Why touch the dummy arms if your trying to use an uppercut to hit like boxing ? Why not box instead of doing chi-sao to develop lin sil di da techniques ?

Iow I isolate the dynamics of the unification in a CK from, ..I DONT just suddenly do an uppercut :D here have that , uppercut, why not follow with a hook on the drawn hand as a sequence in CK ? That seems logical ....

There's nothing wrong with uppercuts, I have used them in fights, they just WONT have the underlying ability VT has on their own to simultaneously attack and defend in one action.

If you do upper cut you see that lifting the elbow also makes a hole back to your center defense..you open yourself up if you miss.. 1cm or death.

I understand what you're saying Kevin about every attack should be intercepting attacking and defending. But you have to remember that many WC motions are two hands working together. The uppercut in CK are two motions working together with the attacking arm ending up in essentially a jaam sau position before extending to the full punch. A drill punch if you will. No loss of elbow control there. Just because the opposite hand is pulling to the side doesn't mean that body rotation unity isn't being applied. It's demonstrating the pull/push action, spreading action, lopping action, whatever one wants to call it. In fact, most actions in either CK or BG where the arm pulls to the side while the other shoots out is exactly that motion. So, since the uppercut in CK is combined with another motion it doesn't violate the principle of body unity or not being simultaneous attack and defend in application. If the uppercut came out on its own, I'd agree with you but since it doesn't, it doesn't violate any principles....

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1163698]Seeing things and trying to make a 1:1 rationale without fundamental knowledge is exactly my point.
----------------------------------------------------
Sorry we are on different paths. Each to his own.
I don't do Victor Kan or PB or KG analyses

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1163698]Seeing things and trying to make a 1:1 rationale without fundamental knowledge is exactly my point.
----------------------------------------------------
Sorry we are on different paths. Each to his own.
I don't do Victor Kan or PB or KG analyses

joy chaudhuri

No you don't but I know that 1st hand. Others can read posts too, not just at you. ; )

[k gledhill]

I understand what you're saying Kevin about every attack should be intercepting attacking and defending. But you have to remember that many WC motions are two hands working together. The uppercut in CK are two motions working together with the attacking arm ending up in essentially a jaam sau position before extending to the full punch. A drill punch if you will. No loss of elbow control there. Just because the opposite hand is pulling to the side doesn't mean that body rotation unity isn't being applied. It's demonstrating the pull/push action, spreading action, lopping action, whatever one wants to call it. In fact, most actions in either CK or BG where the arm pulls to the side while the other shoots out is exactly that motion. So, since the uppercut in CK is combined with another motion it doesn't violate the principle of body unity or not being simultaneous attack and defend in application. If the uppercut came out on its own, I'd agree with you but since it doesn't, it doesn't violate any principles....

You have another method to mine....so its hard to convey and communicate in text..

[WC1277]

You have another method to mine....so its hard to convey and communicate in text..

What's there to communicate and what is there to different methods??? One elbow pulls, one elbow pushes. You're too locked on forearm "technique" and not looking at the big picture. Does the roll in chi sau not go from bong to tan? And that's not even with the opposite elbow pulling! It's the same motion but with a continuation into a drill punch, which essentially is an uppercut!!!! You have absolutely no argument whatsoever with regards to it violating principle. ....in any lineage!!!

[k gledhill]

What's there to communicate and what is there to different methods??? One elbow pulls, one elbow pushes. You're too locked on forearm "technique" and not looking at the big picture. Does the roll in chi sau not go from bong to tan? And that's not even with the opposite elbow pulling! It's the same motion but with a continuation into a drill punch, which essentially is an uppercut!!!! You have absolutely no argument whatsoever with regards to it violating principle. ....in any lineage!!!

So I'm too locked into the 'FIGHTING' method :D for a guy who doesn't spar its easy to see YOU are locked down into chi-sao rolling :D

[WC1277]

So I'm too locked into the 'FIGHTING' method :D for a guy who doesn't spar its easy to see YOU are locked down into chi-sao rolling :D

That's a straw man argument if I've ever seen one... The point is the elbows move a certain way. It's a motion in CK. What you do with that motion is up to you. If anyone is too "locked", it's you. You're probably one of those guys who still punches with a vertical fist no matter what the height of the punch too.... You're hopeless Kev... you really are.... :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

That's a straw man argument if I've ever seen one... The point is the elbows move a certain way. It's a motion in CK. What you do with that motion is up to you. If anyone is too "locked", it's you. You're probably one of those guys who still punches with a vertical fist no matter what the height of the punch too.... You're hopeless Kev... you really are.... :rolleyes:

You brought up the forearm 'techniques'. You arent even aware of what I am talking about. You ARE trying to make sense , relating to YOUR understanding of the actions, fine. Its easy to understand if you let go of this obsession with uppercuts :confused:

you havent seen the big picture, trust me.

[Syn7]

You two should just measure johnsons and get this sh1t over with. :rolleyes:

[GlennR]

You two should just measure johnsons and get this sh1t over with. :rolleyes:

Shall we send them microscopes? ;)

[m1k3]

Wow, 6 pages on whether or not you should punch someone in the face and if so, how to go about it. :eek:

Wouldn't you figure this out pretty quickly the first couple of times you spar?

:confused:

[Frost]

two things that make me smile :)

firstly you are right ahrd sparring would sort this out and that some are still argueing about this after 6 pages is very telling (again it amazes me some can take the time to type over and over but not post a single clip....)

secondly for a discussion like this to break out on a joke thread...well only in the wing chun forum lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

Wow, 6 pages on whether or not you should punch someone in the face and if so, how to go about it. :eek:

Wouldn't you figure this out pretty quickly the first couple of times you spar?

:confused:

What is this "spar" you speak off? another name for Chi sao in your lineage ?

:D

[k gledhill]

What is this "spar" you speak off? another name for Chi sao in your lineage ?

:D

Sparring !? whats that :D oh you mean hitting each other ? I'll give it a try one day :D

[k gledhill]

Bringing back the joking side....Why we dont do Kata in CK [or uppercut;)]

" I sparred with Elvis ! " :D

CLIP (http://youtu.be/h_vvI26NnwE)

[Vajramusti]

Bringing back the joking side....Why we dont do Kata in CK [or uppercut;)]

" I sparred with Elvis ! " :D

CLIP (http://youtu.be/h_vvI26NnwE)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is silly. A wing chun form and a Japanese kata are vastly different things,

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is silly. A wing chun form and a Japanese kata are vastly different things,

joy chaudhuri

Not according to you and WC1277 , all that's missing is the outfit ;) So how come the bong sao isnt a hook too ? I know some sifus make the bong sao a hook :D It has hook like qualities.

So do you and wc1277 think bong is also a hook , into an upper cut sequence ??

[WC1277]

Not according to you and WC1277 , all that's missing is the outfit ;) So how come the bong sao isnt a hook too ? I know some sifus make the bong sao a hook :D It has hook like qualities.

So do you and wc1277 think bong is also a hook , into an upper cut sequence ??

No, because bong sau is a passive movement. If you are using bong sau on its own in application without an incoming force, then you're using it incorrectly...... Genius :rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1163848]Not according to you and WC1277 , all that's missing is the outfit ;)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not worth responding. Bye.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

No, because bong sau is a passive movement. If you are using bong sau on its own in application without an incoming force, then you're using it incorrectly...... Genius :rolleyes:

So A Fong has no bong strikes ??

[WC1277]

So A Fong has no bong strikes ??

I don't speak for Fong Sifu

[k gledhill]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1163848]Not according to you and WC1277 , all that's missing is the outfit ;)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not worth responding. Bye.

joy chaudhuri

Thanks for that response forewarning us all of your intent to, er not respond :D

[wtxs]

Wow, 6 pages on whether or not you should punch someone in the face and if so, how to go about it. :eek:

Wouldn't you figure this out pretty quickly the first couple of times you spar?

:confused:

Most of us figured that out back in elementary school ... and the patty-cake slaps to the face works great. :p

[WC1277]

Uppercut in chum kiu - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmLciBA5ILw

Hook in Biu Gee - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzfTqU_bIZg

[m1k3]

Most of us figured that out back in elementary school ... and the patty-cake slaps to the face works great. :p

Actually a solid slap works quite well. I used to play football back in the day when head slaps were still common. Even with a helmet on they could ring your bell. :D

[WC1277]

Plenty of correct WC hooks here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2chOzs-2Xg

[WC1277]

Fixed the links for these videos too

[k gledhill]

Actually a solid slap works quite well. I used to play football back in the day when head slaps were still common. Even with a helmet on they could ring your bell. :D

Slaps are not funny to ears, even lightly...

[Vajramusti]

Uppercut in chum kiu - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmLciBA5ILw

Hook in Biu Gee - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzfTqU_bIZg
-------------------------------------
To: WC1277


I think I saw aWSL chum kiu youtube video which has the uppercut.

joyy

[k gledhill]

-------------------------------------
To: WC1277


I think I saw aWSL chum kiu youtube video which has the uppercut.

joyy


You and a lot of people :D

We are still doing the same punching ideas , elbow fastest , first to the centerline...diagonal striking angles in a form. More powerful than an uppercut and maintaining our lin sil di da integrity....we use this fighting to create angles, You guys dont spar, so it might be hard to understand.

but if you really want to uppercut, nobody is stopping you.

[WC1277]

....we use this fighting to create angles, You guys dont spar, so it might be hard to understand.

yeah.... Ok, Mr. Romney!....

[WC1277]

Can Chee or anyone who speaks Chinese please translate what Mr. Leung says in this clip from time mark 9:00 - 9:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q8wgirkzgE

Thank you

[k gledhill]

Can Chee or anyone who speaks Chinese please translate what Mr. Leung says in this clip from time mark 9:00 - 9:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q8wgirkzgE

Thank you

D Peterson also refers to it as a diagonal straight punch....;) you believe him ?

[k gledhill]

yeah.... Ok, Mr. Romney!....

:confused: romney ?

[CFT]

Can Chee or anyone who speaks Chinese please translate what Mr. Leung says in this clip from time mark 9:00 - 9:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q8wgirkzgE

Thank youHe's speaking Mandarin/Putonghua which I don't speak so I can't help.

BTW, that should be Mr. Wong or Wong sifu.

[k gledhill]

From knowing the ideas being worked I would venture WSL is saying you dont do a large swing like this, you make a tight action with a re-centered elbow to 'imply' a diagonal strike from the previous angle and then reface with following jut sao....:D

[m1k3]

More powerful than an uppercut and maintaining our lin sil di da integrity.

Wow, really?

Could you post your testing procedures and results please? I am sure there are lots of boxers whose livelihood depends on their punching ability would love to learn this. It could be a real money making deal.


:rolleyes:

[Frost]

Wow, really?

Could you post your testing procedures and results please? I am sure there are lots of boxers whose livelihood depends on their punching ability would love to learn this. It could be a real money making deal.


:rolleyes:

LMAO :o) :o)

[k gledhill]

Wow, really?

Could you post your testing procedures and results please? I am sure there are lots of boxers whose livelihood depends on their punching ability would love to learn this. It could be a real money making deal.


:rolleyes:

Boxers dont do lin sil di da last time I looked :D . I train at and give private VT lessons at Gleasons gym in Brooklyn, it is known for boxing, but they invited me in to do a martial art, some diversity.
An upper cut is as powerful as the guy size doing it with arms and swinging hips elbows but they go up ^ they rotate on their axis line opening up a lot of lines to counter if they MISS :D if they hit me ...well :D. They rely on recovery by evasion, bob n weave, slip...
One of the ways to counter an uppercut is move back, so an uppercut doesnt 'feed' into our thinking for maintaining a line of attack if we miss , make errors....get intercepted.

We drive forwards with body mass in motion at the target off the rear leg as we hit. I hit the heavy bags with it and upper cuts . Its similar to an uppercut in its outward appearance, ergo everyone makes a 1:1 without the underlying idea of simultaneous defense of my line and attacking. BUT the punch drives forwards like a right cross only with a super tight elbow driven by hips.

I can uppercut too, but, with our thinking,[what is that thinking ? ]... so its not over-swinging, it maintains the line so my FOLLOWING hand can still make a line OVER it. Yeah I know, what is he talking about ...lmao !

The reasons we have certain constraints in striking lines is simply to avoid the errors after the fact ...if we miss, what then ? When you understand that you see a way of fighting with VT as counter attacking, intercepting....less about throwing bombs, which are powerful before the bomb throwers revolt...; )

[k gledhill]

LMAO :o) :o)

You're a clueless troll Frost :D

[m1k3]

But you still haven't validated your claim that the punch you use is
More powerful than an uppercut.

You made the claim. I and I am sure several others here are simply looking to see what procedures you used to come to this conclusion and the data from your tests.

Peer review is a good thing. It insures that there were no flaws in the procedures, that the data was gathered correctly and that the interpretation of the results is valid.

[m1k3]

Having done a little boxing I understand how uppercuts work. BTW there are several different types of uppercuts as well depending on distance and spacing. I agree that there are issues with a trailing hand uppercut in that if it misses you will be open.

Whereas a lead uppercut is short, fast and incredibly tight. It is often thrown when you are leaning on you opponent or have your forehead planted in his chest. As a lefty who fought out of a conventional stance I love lead uppercuts. shovel hook, shovel hook, uppercut all thrown with the lead hand is a great combination. The shovel hooks bring his elbow down to protect the liver giving the uppercut a clear path.


The uppercut you seem to be describing what I would call a George Foreman uppercut, thrown with a bit of distance between the fighters and is used as a KO punch. It would never be thrown as a lead unless your opponent is already hurt or fights out of a deep crouch.

What I am describing is a Smoken Joe Frazier uppercut where he has his head planted against you, fires some hooks and does a slight pivot step to open just enough space for the left uppercut to fire through.

If you want to try that on the heavy bag you actually have to be so close you are leaning slightly into the bag with your gloves touching your cheeks and your elbows in tight touching your ribs.

Better yet test it against an uppercut bag.

[Frost]

You're a clueless troll Frost :D

TO be honest im quite happy being clueless if you are the one handing out the knowledge :eek:
Oh and im still waiting for you to back up your claim that your punch is more powerful than an uppercut…..how about showing us you beating one of Gleasons pros with it :D

[Frost]

[Same here, please show what you mean, I mean you talk about superior hand positioning, and how unlike the uppercut you can attack without exposing yourself, but frankly I smell B8ll sh*t of the worset kind……..but im willing to be proven wrong please show what you mean working in full contact against a boxer, I mean you must care since you have lord knows how many posts on this forum, a simple clip should be easy to post

[Frost]

its aVT forum, I do VT for 28 years ? or did trolling fever with no post of worth skip your mind ?

WSL was a boxer before VT, not like a mystery I am revealing here about arm positions and reasons :D

You have a personal vendetta, sorry not to oblige. troll....

I know WSL was a boxer and I don’t care, its you im asking to put a clip up because its you going on and on about these methods
And I’m not the only one to ask for video proof of your superior methods, most of the member of this forum (the majority of whom do do WC, some longer than you) have at one time or the other got tired of your endless PB pushing and asked you to put up….to date we are all still waiting lol
Call me a troll all you want but it doesn’t change the simple fact you won’t put up, neither will you shut up unfortunately

And no vendetta just cant stand the preaching thats all :D

[m1k3]

And like the old guy with Alzheimers who escapes from the nursing home, another wing chun thread meanders off into the night mumbling to itself trying to figure out where it is and what the heck it had been talking about.

So sad.


:p

[Frost]

So bugger off ! :D

I could care less about your frustrations...come on ! you really think I would do anything to satisfy your requests ? fool :D

I post clips of things I do too, only buy guys in the same lineage, better than I can....I dont sell DVD's ;)

frustrations, lol mate get over yourself its funny as h*ll to me, i dont really care i have good instructors i just cant honestly beleieve you spend all this time correcting everyone on here and preaching your faith but wont step up and show us what you mean :)

[k gledhill]

And like the old guy with Alzheimers who escapes from the nursing home, another wing chun thread meanders off into the night mumbling to itself trying to figure out where it is and what the heck it had been talking about.

So sad.


:p

I thought thats what they all did anyway here :D I am not knocking the moderator, but if you look at some other forums, they dont get anywhere near this random.

Guys like Frost are edited, post off topic edited...no sub thread, insult thread, interwoven with topic...

[WC1277]

We drive forwards with body mass in motion at the target off the rear leg as we hit. I hit the heavy bags with it and upper cuts . Its similar to an uppercut in its outward appearance, ergo everyone makes a 1:1 without the underlying idea of simultaneous defense of my line and attacking. BUT the punch drives forwards like a right cross only with a super tight elbow driven by hips.

I can uppercut too, but, with our thinking,[what is that thinking ? ]... so its not over-swinging, it maintains the line so my FOLLOWING hand can still make a line OVER it. Yeah I know, what is he talking about ...lmao !

The reasons we have certain constraints in striking lines is simply to avoid the errors after the fact ...if we miss, what then ? When you understand that you see a way of fighting with VT as counter attacking, intercepting....less about throwing bombs, which are powerful before the bomb throwers revolt...; )

So let me get this straight. You're entire argument against uppercuts in WC is due to you thinking myself or others were referring to boxing uppercuts? Really!....:eek:

Uppercut Definition(google it if you don't believe me) -
Noun:
A punch delivered with an upward motion and the arm bent.
Verb:
Hit with an uppercut.

[k gledhill]

So let me get this straight. You're entire argument against uppercuts in WC is due to you thinking myself or others were referring to boxing uppercuts? Really!....:eek:

Uppercut Definition(google it if you don't believe me) -
Noun:
A punch delivered with an upward motion and the arm bent.
Verb:
Hit with an uppercut.

Uppercut by definition goes up [elbow up] and easily distorts the centerline, allowing counters, WE/ I, try not to make. A shovel punch is a combo of hook and an uppercut, the elbow doesnt even touch the centerline, neither of which is what we do in VT or CK.
Elbows center to make a PRE striking action directly as always, but in the form the emphasis is elbow control with axis rotation...to me , I should add.
Not trying to 'preach to everyone', heaven forbid we should all think the same :D

look at the attacking line and then look at the follow through of an uppercut ...its vertical ...up...
A HUGE part of our repertoire is simply countering this type of error. So why commit it to uppercut.

Add to the fact you cant wu sao over your arm to make a new attack or maintain facing ...

there is a tactical angling use in fighting....nothing to do with your ideas of chi-sao battles.

[WC1277]

Uppercut by definition goes up [elbow up] and easily distorts the centerline, allowing counters, WE/ I, try not to make. A shovel punch is a combo of hook and an uppercut, the elbow doesnt even touch the centerline, neither of which is what we do in VT or CK.
Elbows center to make a PRE striking action directly as always, but in the form the emphasis is elbow control with axis rotation...to me , I should add.
Not trying to 'preach to everyone', heaven forbid we should all think the same :D

look at the attacking line and then look at the follow through of an uppercut ...its vertical ...up...
A HUGE part of our repertoire is simply countering this type of error. So why commit it to uppercut.

Add to the fact you cant wu sao over your arm to make a new attack or maintain facing ...

there is a tactical angling use in fighting....

Once again, look at the "uppercuts" performed on both the form and free flow and tell me how they're violating structure or lines?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmLciBA5ILw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2chOzs-2Xg

WSL over emphasizes his "uppercut" IMO

[k gledhill]

Once again, look at the "uppercuts" performed on both the form and free flow and tell me how they're violating structure or lines?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmLciBA5ILw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2chOzs-2Xg

WSL over emphasizes his "uppercut" IMO

I have covered it before with you...but you insist we think the same way, no. :)

[WC1277]

I have covered it before with you...but you insist we think the same way, no. :)

No, what you do is word play Kevin. In that second video, where there's hooks, elbows, locks, knees, and uppercuts; are those acceptable principle based applications or not? It's not about your "tactical method", there's other methods too. Structurally, lines and all, is that video from another lineage acceptable application or not? You should really watch the whole thing through, if you've only skimmed through it, because just about every motion from all of the forms and drills are applied in one way or another in it. I don't recall any of your video posts containing much more than lop sau and straight punches....

[Vajramusti]

No, what you do is word play Kevin. In that second video, where there's hooks, elbows, locks, knees, and uppercuts; are those acceptable principle based applications or not? It's not about your "tactical method", there's other methods too. Structurally, lines and all, is that video from another lineage acceptable application or not? You should really watch the whole thing through, if you've only skimmed through it, because just about every motion from all of the forms and drills are applied in one way or another in it. I don't recall any of your video posts containing much more than lop sau and straight punches....
--------------------------------------------- wc2377- Word play? He cant even write clearly and succintly and misrepresents what he is told. Why waste time ..,?

joy chaudhuri

[WC1277]

--------------------------------------------- wc2377- Word play? He cant even write clearly and succintly and misrepresents what he is told. Why waste time ..,?

joy chaudhuri

You're right Joy. I need to work on my "tactical" response to his posts! ;)

[k gledhill]

Laurel and Hardy :D

[Yoshiyahu]

I have covered it before with you...but you insist we think the same way, no. :)

Watch Wong Shon leung over see his student doing Chum Kiu...it can be use as upper cut look at the energy



Chum Kiu Form (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q8wgirkzgE)

Watch the video of wong shun leung...see the energy of the upper cut

Wong Shun Leung Himself doing Chum Kiu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ckHE4X8yUk)

[k gledhill]

Why doesn't WSL make uppercuts from the preceding bong sao's ? Bong ~ uppercut x 3 ? or 3 back-fists after bong. Why not really follow through for maximum force ?
Why isnt it a lateral hammer fist strike to the temple ?

Why only do 1 dropping tight elbow to his center while facing sharply and then only tap his hand to show it goes forwards a little before returning to jut sao ? Why not throw a combo of a hook after the uppercut, why so stingy ? Its because we are conditioning certain actions, a unity of actions, for use in sparring, fighting.

Try to think like me for a second, think you're taking an idea from SLT and adding motion along an axis line. Add to that the elbow drops and goes to center first with the hips, then the little extension forwards so we have a jut sao back from that slight extension as we face another direction...? The jut elbow doesn't leave the body either, why ?

The VT thinking isnt visible, Yip Man CK form is no different to WSL, but you will see variations of guys 3-4 hand down, adding all kinds of 'kata' striking after the action from muddled ideas.

You can hit a guy anyway you need to through the mechanics and dynamics of the training BUT you wont lose sight of the key defense/attack ideas as you do this, iow you arent going to get a punch coming through a loose elbow that never re-centered habitually from drilling and form work

[Yoshiyahu]

after all that is said an done i posted a video of WSL himself...look at the energy...of the uppercut...if its not an strike than its not anything...



Why doesn't WSL make uppercuts from the preceding bong sao's ? Bong ~ uppercut x 3 ? or 3 back-fists after bong. Why not really follow through for maximum force ?
Why isnt it a lateral hammer fist strike to the temple ?

Why only do 1 dropping tight elbow to his center while facing sharply and then only tap his hand to show it goes forwards a little before returning to jut sao ? Why not throw a combo of a hook after the uppercut, why so stingy ? Its because we are conditioning certain actions, a unity of actions, for use in sparring, fighting.

Try to think like me for a second, think you're taking an idea from SLT and adding motion along an axis line. Add to that the elbow drops and goes to center first with the hips, then the little extension forwards so we have a jut sao back from that slight extension as we face another direction...? The jut elbow doesn't leave the body either, why ?

The VT thinking isnt visible, Yip Man CK form is no different to WSL, but you will see variations of guys 3-4 hand down, adding all kinds of 'kata' striking after the action from muddled ideas.

You can hit a guy anyway you need to through the mechanics and dynamics of the training BUT you wont lose sight of the key defense/attack ideas as you do this, iow you arent going to get a punch coming through a loose elbow that never re-centered habitually from drilling and form work

[JPinAZ]

Is this thread really still going? And yoshi is actually posting on it?
I guess the joke went over a few people's heads here..

[k gledhill]

after all that is said an done i posted a video of WSL himself...look at the energy...of the uppercut...if its not an strike than its not anything...

facepalm....:D lets move on...

[k gledhill]

Is this thread really still going? And yoshi is actually posting on it?
I guess the joke went over a few people's heads here..

Like many threads it gave birth to a sub thread with another for insults, etc...