WC principles

[m1k3]

Ok, I haven't posted here in a long time and there seems to some complaining about a lack of interesting threads. Maybe this one can be interesting.

I read a lot here about WC being a principle based fighting art. So as some one with limited WC experience just what are these principles. I remember some of what I was taught but I would like to hear it from knowledgable people in the art.

So, what are these principles, how do they apply to training, sparring, competing and fighting and do they vary from lineage to lineage?

There, that ought to keep everyone interested for a while.

[Vajramusti]

You might need a book rather than an email post. not being sarcastic.

joy chaudhuri

[m1k3]

** sound of crickets **

I guess principles just aren't that big of deal after all. :)


You might need a book rather than an email post. not being sarcastic.

Looks like a post-it note would have been more than large enough.

[Wayfaring]

Centerline.

So you are asking for principles that deal with the sum total of WCK. That's a very broad topic.

To accomodate you, I am attempting to boil down all of WCK's principles into one word.

[m1k3]

Let me reword this.

What are the principles at play when YOU do YOUR Wing Chun?

This whole thing was driven by a couple of different posts.

sanjuro_ronin

It boils down to this, what does one believe WC to be/should be?
A)A principle based system of fighting
B)A fighting style of certain pre-defined technical characteristics.

If you choose A then as long as you adhere to said principles you are doing WC regardless of what it may look like technique wise.
If you choose B then it MUST look a certain way to be WC.

jesper

type A fight
Type B drill


From the "don't be a slave to wing chun" thread.

wc1277


Is it just me or has of late the actual talk of WC theory and/or technique made this forum rather boring? I think the whole sparring, real pressure testing malarkey always makes this forum incredibly dry. No talk of the art or actual system means no WC forum.... ....and Yoshi doesn't help either.....


From the What happened to actual conversation about this system we call WC, VT, WT? thread.

I am actually interested and I get "centerline" as my only response.

So based on that because boxing both punches down the "centerline" and has "centerline" punch covers that it would fit within what everyone considers WC principles? If not, why?

[Yoshiyahu]

The principle based people really dont know what they mean when they say principles...

I mean the can probably spout off theory and give you a text book answer. But when fighting that all changes...

So in other words you will get no real answer...

Thats why in order to utilize principles one needs to first break down each technique that deals with a principle an drill it until he can effectively apply the technique.

[imperialtaichi]

the Four Pillars of KL22WC:

封手、制腳、管勢、失中（重）。

Seal arms, control legs, manage momentum/structure (of opponent), (make opponent) lose centre/weight.

Doesn't matter how you do it; as long as it's done, you win the fight.

[CFT]

Hey John, I like those 4 pillars.

[m1k3]

the Four Pillars of KL22WC:

封手、制腳、管勢、失中（重）。

Seal arms, control legs, manage momentum/structure (of opponent), (make opponent) lose centre/weight.

Doesn't matter how you do it; as long as it's done, you win the fight.

Thank you.

[LoneTiger108]

I don't know if you would regard this piece from my Sifu as 'Principles' in the same manner I do, but have a look and let me know...

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1160414&postcount=1

A good translation from Chee

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1161164&postcount=15

[YouKnowWho]

So, what are these principles, how do they apply to training, sparring, competing and fighting and do they vary from lineage to lineage?

Principles are also general guidelines. It can make fighting simple.

- The "center line" theory base on the shortest distance is between 2 points. If your arms are inside of your opponent's arms, you can hit your opponent faster than he can hit you (assume both of you have the same speed).

- The "deflect and strike at the same time" theory combine 1,2 as 1. Old saying said, "1 is better than 1,2 and 1,2 is better than 1,2,3." Speed is a major factor in combat.

- The "run your opponent down" theory by enter your leg between your opponent's legs can take over his center. If you can do that, it will be very diffficult for you to lose in any combat situation because your "aggressive" attitude.

[m1k3]

Principles are also general guidelines. It can make fighting simple.

- The "center line" theory base on the shortest distance is between 2 points. If your arms are inside of your opponent's arms, you can hit your opponent faster than he can hit you (assume both of you have the same speed).

- The "deflect and strike at the same time" theory combine 1,2 as 1. Old saying said, "1 is better than 1,2 and 1,2 is better than 1,2,3." Speed is a major factor in combat.

- The "run your opponent down" theory by enter your leg between your opponent's legs can take over his center. If you can do that, it will be very diffficult for you to lose in any combat situation because your "aggressive" attitude.

Cool, thank you.

The first principle is often seen in western boxing, in boxing it is referred to as punching right down the pipe.

The second, would that be considered a stop-hit. For example a right cross can often be stopped by a left jab that either hits the other person in the face disrupting the punch or even if it misses occupies the space the right cross was going to travel through thus deflecting it.

The last was something I learned in wrestling a long time ago. If you draw a straight line between your opponents heels and then push at a 90 degree angle to that line your opponent while usually go down because you are pushing in the direction with the least resistance. Hard to do in a dynamic situation but lots of times just being close is good enough.

[m1k3]

Lone Tiger, sorry but I found the translation difficult to follow. Thank you for the serious reply though. Maybe you could put it into your own words?

[YouKnowWho]

The second, would that be considered a stop-hit. For example a right cross can often be stopped by a left jab that either hits the other person in the face disrupting the punch or even if it misses occupies the space the right cross was going to travel through thus deflecting it.

In TCMA term, it's called 哈拳(Ha Quan). A single punch has combined both defense and offense. The interest thing is the reverse will work as well. When your opponent uses a jab at your face, your hook punch can not only deflect his straight punch, it can also hit on his head at the same time.

[LoneTiger108]

Lone Tiger, sorry but I found the translation difficult to follow. Thank you for the serious reply though. Maybe you could put it into your own words?

Yep it is a little basic but most people who try to do what I asked Chee to do still can't find a way :( Something to do with the connectives you 'could' use which sometimes gives a phrase different meanings. Like me saying Yin AND Yang, Yin OR Yang, Yin WITH Yang etc so we will just say Yin Yang lol!

I will see if using my own words helps, but I thought it may give you an idea of how I was taught. The whole piece is a single principle, so to speak, because without expressing the variety it holds you are only doing part of the Wing Chun I know and love :D

This really boils down to 4 basic areas we use at The Yum Yeurng Academy to coach new students:

Foundation - set methods to practise for self protection like sansau
Form - relating to the form of the whole body, more than just WCK forms
Equipment - specifically the flag pole, stick, rings and wooden man
Sparring - any interactive practise that neither has a winner or loser!

Again, things I have shared before but in this context I guess I am testing my flexibility with words! lol!

[m1k3]

Thanks, that was very clear.

[Phil Redmond]

Ok, I haven't posted here in a long time . . . .
I noticed your avatar. Good job.