Female Sifu ????

[Phil Redmond]

Sifu has 父 which means "father". Does anyone know if there is a specific character for a female Sifu or do both men and women use the same character???

[Vajramusti]

Sifu has 父 which means "father". Does anyone know if there is a specific character for a female Sifu or do both men and women use the same character???

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a female sifu is still a sifu... but I do not know about the character.
a
joy

[Phil Redmond]

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a female sifu is still a sifu... but I do not know about the character.
a
joy
After all these years I never even thought about the character being male specific. :)

[Runlikehell]

Would this be of help?

http://www.orientaloutpost.com/shufa.php?q=sifu

I recalled reading a similar discussion, but I can't remember the other characters off hand. Maybe they were the same as listed on the site.

[imperialtaichi]

From what I know, it's the same, as in "teacher father."

Your Sifu's wife is "Si Mo", which means "teacher mother."

But if your sifu is female, which you call "teacher father", I have no idea what to call her husband :confused:

[CFT]

I would imagine that informally you would just call them 'uncle' (suk 叔 or bak 伯). If they were significantly older than you then perhaps gung (公).

Slightly more formal, I would favour si jeung (師丈) since he is the husband (丈夫) of your female sifu. This follows the convention in normal familial relationships - your uncles by marriage would be gu jeung (姑丈) or yee jeung (姨丈) (husband of paternal and maternal aunt respectively). I can find similar suggestions via Google but nothing really authoritative.

[Vajramusti]

I would imagine that informally you would just call them 'uncle' (suk 叔 or bak 伯). If they were significantly older than you then perhaps gung (公).

Slightly more formal, I would favour si jeung (師丈) since he is the husband (丈夫) of your female sifu. This follows the convention in normal familial relationships - your uncles by marriage would be gu jeung (姑丈) or yee jeung (姨丈) (husband of paternal and maternal aunt respectively). I can find similar suggestions via Google but nothing really authoritative.
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Chee- si jeung sounds good. Thanks as always for your help.

joy

[mun hung]

What would you call her monkey's uncle? j/k

[GeneChing]

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a female sifu is still a sifu... but I do not know about the character.
a
joy
There is a female term - shimu (師母) - but that is used to refer to the wife of a male master. A female master generally adopts the title shifu. I imagine that this custom is a Confucian remnant - a male dominance construct. To make matters more confusing, the husband of a female master is usually called shifu too.

[couch]

There is a female term - shimu (師母) - but that is used to refer to the wife of a male master. A female master generally adopts the title shifu. I imagine that this custom is a Confucian remnant - a male dominance construct. To make matters more confusing, the husband of a female master is usually called shifu too.

Wonderful response. Thanks, Gene!

[Phil Redmond]

Would this be of help?

http://www.orientaloutpost.com/shufa.php?q=sifu

I recalled reading a similar discussion, but I can't remember the other characters off hand. Maybe they were the same as listed on the site.

師傅 This is the character used use for any Sifu except your own. You would use 師父 for your own Sifu. Good info. Thx, I'm going to pass this link on.

[Phil Redmond]

From what I know, it's the same, as in "teacher father."

Your Sifu's wife is "Si Mo", which means "teacher mother."

But if your sifu is female, which you call "teacher father", I have no idea what to call her husband :confused:
Good point.

[Phil Redmond]

There is a female term - shimu (師母) - but that is used to refer to the wife of a male master. A female master generally adopts the title shifu. I imagine that this custom is a Confucian remnant - a male dominance construct. To make matters more confusing, the husband of a female master is usually called shifu too.
In Cantonese 師母 is Si-Mo. I agree Gene, the si-dai, si-hing, si-je, etc., familial terms have their roots in Confucianism. I had to do a short thesis on the subject.

[GeneChing]

That also accounts for the difference in 師. Cantonese say si. Mandarin says shi. The most dramatic pronunciation shift is with elder brother (師兄). Cantonese pronounce this as hing. Mandarin says xiong. It's the same character however.


師傅 This is the character used use for any Sifu except your own. You would use 師父 for your own Sifu. Good info. Thx, I'm going to pass this link on. Excellent point, Phil. In the first example, 傅 means 'teacher', while 父 means 'father'. More properly, fuqin (父親) means 'father'. In the same fashion, muqin (母親) means 'mother'. Both fu are pronounced the same, so there's no difference when spoken, only when written.

[Runlikehell]

師傅 This is the character used use for any Sifu except your own. You would use 師父 for your own Sifu. Good info. Thx, I'm going to pass this link on.

Thanks for that Phil.

[Phil Redmond]

Thanks for that Phil.
You're very welcome my WC brother.

[Happy Tiger]

Good to know. Somewhat embarassing, considering our boxing is supposed to be pioneered by women :)

[Lee Chiang Po]

Good to know. Somewhat embarassing, considering our boxing is supposed to be pioneered by women :)


That was just a myth. No women could come up with such a system. And besides, were women even allowed to do gung fu then? Or be sifu?

[Happy Tiger]

That was just a myth. No women could come up with such a system. And besides, were women even allowed to do gung fu then? Or be sifu?
Yes,Well I prefer to think of it as a legend:). It is true that up to recent history not too many women masters of any KF are known and those usually taught by their husbands. But the persistance of the legend, if only in spirit, deserves more acknowlegment in the present day and it's implication in the performance of VT. If by saying a woman could not have come up with VT you mean because of limited access to the resources of martial knowlege, perhaps. If you're alluding to a womans ability to concieve of a system like VT I disagree. As well, some of the very best VT players I've ever known are awsome ladies of immense kung fu talent and skill against men as well as women. Internal structure at par with male counterparts.It is more a myth that women cannot handle the rigours of combat, instinct for violence and martial training simply because of somewhat less brute power in the upper body in general or emotional content. I've often wondered what happened to some of GM Ip Mans female students.

[LoneTiger108]

I've often wondered what happened to some of GM Ip Mans female students.

There are still a few female relatives around too, but even today the men still seem to take charge in business and such.

Have a quick look at one of my personal photos of the whole Ip Family clan, taken when they opened the first Ip Man Tong in Fatshan, and you will see more than a few female faces :) Didn't Ip Man did have daughters too?

http://www.y-y-a.co.uk/db_993700211.jpg

[Vajramusti]

One of the assistants to my sifu was a kung fu older sister who had superb kung fu and was a superb
teacher. She fought in martial arts tournaments in her time and lost only one match to my knowledge to a kenpo stylist and student of Ed Parker with Parker being the chief judge! Then she (Nancy M.) walked away from the martial arts for personal reasons.
A younger kung fu sister is a regular instructor at Fong sifu's place in Tucson.
little-raven.com – Carina makes wooden dummies for Wing Chun stylists, plus a variety of equipment for other martial arts.

joy chaudhuri

[Lee Chiang Po]

Yes,Well I prefer to think of it as a legend:). It is true that up to recent history not too many women masters of any KF are known and those usually taught by their husbands. But the persistance of the legend, if only in spirit, deserves more acknowlegment in the present day and it's implication in the performance of VT. If by saying a woman could not have come up with VT you mean because of limited access to the resources of martial knowlege, perhaps. If you're alluding to a womans ability to concieve of a system like VT I disagree. As well, some of the very best VT players I've ever known are awsome ladies of immense kung fu talent and skill against men as well as women. Internal structure at par with male counterparts.It is more a myth that women cannot handle the rigours of combat, instinct for violence and martial training simply because of somewhat less brute power in the upper body in general or emotional content. I've often wondered what happened to some of GM Ip Mans female students.

Let me rephrase that a bit. My reason for calling it a myth is that many years ago I was given the history as being from a number of people, but my lineage comes from a man called Hung. Lots of contributors, and not by a single woman. I didn't hear the Ng Mui or Yimm Wing Chun story until I actually joined this forum.
As for women being able to do gung fu, I am not foolish enough to think they can't. I have two older sisters that can be scary as hell.
I think that the Chinese tend to use lots of myth legends to explain a lot of their history. Most of this stuff is from secret societies that could not actually tell the facts. They couldn't just tell people that Joe Hung over here is teaching people how to fight so that we can rebel down the line. So people like Tan Sao Ng became Ng Mui or Yimm Wing Chun. Someone that could not be tracked down. The thing is, we will never really know for sure. Personally, I think it is from a guy named Daffy Duck. He does wear an all black gung fu uniform.

[Happy Tiger]

Let me rephrase that a bit. My reason for calling it a myth is that many years ago I was given the history as being from a number of people, but my lineage comes from a man called Hung. Lots of contributors, and not by a single woman. I didn't hear the Ng Mui or Yimm Wing Chun story until I actually joined this forum.
As for women being able to do gung fu, I am not foolish enough to think they can't. I have two older sisters that can be scary as hell.
I think that the Chinese tend to use lots of myth legends to explain a lot of their history. Most of this stuff is from secret societies that could not actually tell the facts. They couldn't just tell people that Joe Hung over here is teaching people how to fight so that we can rebel down the line. So people like Tan Sao Ng became Ng Mui or Yimm Wing Chun. Someone that could not be tracked down. The thing is, we will never really know for sure. Personally, I think it is from a guy named Daffy Duck. He does wear an all black gung fu uniform.
Understood :)

[OrientalOutpost]

I saw that my site was referenced in this conversation. Then looking at the information on my site, I realized that it was a bit ambiguous.

I've corrected that now, as seen here:
http://www.orientaloutpost.com/shufa.php?q=sifu

In short, it is my opinion, backed by two native Chinese translators that 師父 is the Sifu for a martial arts master and teacher.

The other Sifu is 師傅, and is appropriate for tutors, taxi drivers (don't know why taxi drivers are referred to as "master" in Chinese - even Chinese people don't know), and skilled workers.

Cheers,
-Gary.
http://www.orientaloutpost.com/