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mooyingmantis
03-15-2012, 05:32 PM
This week I began introducing my students to the strategies of fanche (翻 車) and lulu (轆 轤).

I looked back through the past threads and realized we have not had a thread on the Fanche forms four over four years. I thought now may be a good time to start a discussion on this series.

I know of three fanche forms currently taught within the mantis families: Da Fanche, Xiao Fanche and Zhong Lu Fanche. Fanche sets are found in Qixing, Meihua, Taiji, Taiji Meihua, Mimen and Babu Tanglangquan.

Variations of the fanche and lulu techniques/principles are also found in the northern mantis forms: Beng Bu, Cha Chui, Hei Hu Chu Dong, Hei Hu Jiao Cha and Mei Hua Lu.

How many of you have or are currently training one or more of these forms? Does your family of mantis have any fanche forms other than the three mentioned?

Codeboy
03-16-2012, 05:23 AM
I've learned Dai Fanche and I know sifu Chung teaches Su Fanche (sorry, I only hear the Cantonese and don't know which is the Mandarin). Not sure about the other Fanche forms though.

I'm curious which part of Bung Bo has the fanche technique? I've seen many variations in that form so maybe you have it different than we do?

iunojupiter
03-16-2012, 05:47 AM
If I remember right, Fanche technique is found in Wah Lum's straight form as well, and they have a small and large Fanche as well.


Cheers,
Josh

MightyB
03-16-2012, 05:52 AM
I've learned Dai Fanche and I know sifu Chung teaches Su Fanche (sorry, I only hear the Cantonese and don't know which is the Mandarin). Not sure about the other Fanche forms though.

I'm curious which part of Bung Bo has the fanche technique? I've seen many variations in that form so maybe you have it different than we do?

I'm not seeing it either. <<Running through mental imaging process Now>> Yeah, not seeing it.

On a side note: Like Codeboy said - two sets, Big Fan Che, and Small Fan Che. Siu contains my favorite Bruce Lee like punch. I worked in Florida a bit when I was younger and got cut off from good kung fu. To stay sharp - all I did for three months was Siu Fan Che. Good fighting form - looks goofy to outsiders, not nearly as goofy looking as Dai Fan Che though. :)

18elders
03-16-2012, 07:06 AM
I have learned xiao fan che, zhong fan che and zhong lu fan che and also wah lum's fan che.
i like xiao and zhong fan che the best.

Yao Sing
03-16-2012, 10:15 AM
As 18elders said Wah Lum has Fanche (big and little) but they are different although the move Fanche, and Lulu, is found in other WL sets.

mooyingmantis
03-16-2012, 10:44 AM
I'm curious which part of Bung Bo has the fanche technique? I've seen many variations in that form so maybe you have it different than we do?

Codeboy,
Nice to hear you train with Master Chung. He is an excellent mantis man!

In beng bu/bung bo, movement thirteen in Wong Hon Fan's quanpu is Straddle Tiger, Water Wheel Pattern kua hu fan che shi.

It is in this section of the form:

10. Horse Pattern, Double Seal Hands
ma shi shuang feng shou
11. Hill Climbing, Hook & Splitting Strike
deng shan diao pi chui
12. Right Hook, Hold, Pluck Hand
you ou lou cai shou
13. Straddle Tiger, Water Wheel Pattern
kua hu fan che shi
14. Hill Climbing, Left Thrust Palm
deng shan zuo cha zhang
15. Hill Climbing, Right Insert Strike
deng shan you bu chui
16. Horse Pattern, Double Seal Hands
ma shi shuang feng shou

This time, rather than a spinning downward motion with both arms extended, fanche is a right gua with a left uppercut strike.

MightyB
03-16-2012, 11:01 AM
Codeboy,
Nice to hear you train with Master Chung. He is an excellent mantis man!

In beng bu/bung bo, movement thirteen in Wong Hon Fan's quanpu is Straddle Tiger, Water Wheel Pattern kua hu fan che shi.

It is in this section of the form:

10. Horse Pattern, Double Seal Hands
ma shi shuang feng shou
11. Hill Climbing, Hook & Splitting Strike
deng shan diao pi chui
12. Right Hook, Hold, Pluck Hand
you ou lou cai shou
13. Straddle Tiger, Water Wheel Pattern
kua hu fan che shi
14. Hill Climbing, Left Thrust Palm
deng shan zuo cha zhang
15. Hill Climbing, Right Insert Strike
deng shan you bu chui
16. Horse Pattern, Double Seal Hands
ma shi shuang feng shou

This time, rather than a spinning downward motion with both arms extended, fanche is a right gua with a left uppercut strike.

Man I'll need video because I'm still not seeing it... granted I'm sitting and directing a TV show and I'm only able to mentally go through the form... there's a left gua and a right upper cut, but it'd be a stretch to classify as fan che.

MightyB
03-16-2012, 11:08 AM
You talking about the 31 second mark?
Bung Bo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1OuZDo-s20)

mooyingmantis
03-16-2012, 12:22 PM
You talking about the 31 second mark?
Bung Bo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1OuZDo-s20)

Nope, the 10 second mark in that video of Brendan Lai is named "fanche shi" in WHF's quanpu. It is right after the "triple pick".

I agree that it does not look like what most practitioners would think of when they hear the term "fanche". Which makes the selection of the term even more interesting in my opinion. :)

Yao Sing
03-16-2012, 12:31 PM
Yeah I'm lost. I didn't see anything remotely similar in the Seven Star vid. Maybe in a different version?

Maybe here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nut-dXNCMzE), 1:54 mark?

MightyB
03-16-2012, 12:38 PM
Nope, the 10 second mark in that video of Brendan Lai is named "fanche shi" in WHF's quanpu. It is right after the "triple pick".

I agree that it does not look like what most practitioners would think of when they hear the term "fanche". Which makes the selection of the term even more interesting in my opinion. :)

weird - I have the application as bung choi with the crushing step power... not upper cut.

MightyB
03-16-2012, 12:42 PM
Yeah I'm lost. I didn't see anything remotely similar in the Seven Star vid. Maybe in a different version?

Maybe here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nut-dXNCMzE), 1:54 mark?

Well, Mooying's right in that when you think of Fan Che - it's the continuous fists falling like rain in Dai Fan Che and Siu Fan Che. Usually they're downward, but you can change direction and go up - I just don't think you find it that way in Bung Bo. :D

mooyingmantis
03-16-2012, 01:10 PM
Yeah I'm lost. I didn't see anything remotely similar in the Seven Star vid. Maybe in a different version?

Maybe here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nut-dXNCMzE), 1:54 mark?

No, that is the Laiyang Beng Bu version, I was talking about the Yantai Beng Bu version. The Yantai version is the one Brendan Lai is doing. Fanche shi is at 00:10.

mooyingmantis
03-16-2012, 01:15 PM
I just don't think you find it that way in Bung Bo. :D

Hey, I did not tell WHF or his students what to write. :D I just be reportin'! LOL!

Yao Sing
03-16-2012, 01:21 PM
I see what you point out but I don't see any form of Fanche there.

Wah Lum has both downward and upward. In WL Straight Form the downward is followed by the upward version. Same with Lok Lo but that set also has the single downward swinging arm.

MightyB
03-16-2012, 01:26 PM
No, that is the Laiyang Beng Bu version, I was talking about the Yantai Beng Bu version. The Yantai version is the one Brendan Lai is doing. Fanche shi is at 00:10.

But he's not - you can test in application.

I don't know all the fancy Cantonese terminology - so bear with me,

Do an ou lou choi where you take the step forward and end up left foot forward on a right hand initiated ou lou choi. Let your opponent block with his left upper gua. Just hold that position a bit - don't break contact with your right fist/forearm on his left gua - change your fist to a pluck, moving the pluck in a counter clockwise motion - your left, bung choi his face as you do the half-step with your rear leg to make up the distance.

MightyB
03-16-2012, 01:30 PM
Hey, I did tell WHF or his student what to write. :D I just be reportin'! LOL!

here's some weirdness - in the retirement films online, if you watch what's being called Siu Fan Che, they do the triple goofy hoppy-chop thing - that's not in the siu fan che I remember. There's no goofy hopping at all, pure beat arseness... no goofyness. :D

Yao Sing
03-16-2012, 01:50 PM
Post a link?

mooyingmantis
03-16-2012, 05:03 PM
here's some weirdness - in the retirement films online, if you watch what's being called Siu Fan Che, they do the triple goofy hoppy-chop thing - that's not in the siu fan che I remember. There's no goofy hopping at all, pure beat arseness... no goofyness. :D

But that is how some of the other families do it, with the hops. The spinning windlass strikes are replaced by rising and falling forearm chops.

The reason you two are not seeing the fanche is because you are missing the fanche principle while looking for a technique that is called fanche in other forms.

Standing in place with the arms whirling downwards in near vertical arcs is only one way to apply the fanche principle.

The principle of fanche is that one hand rises, falls or swings across to knock away the opponent's arm to clear the way for the other attacking arm. This is made more clear in Xiao Fanche where the fanche principle is used rising, falling and horizontally.

As further evidence, Wong Hon Fan's description of the technique in Beng Bu never explains the left fist as a beng chui/bung cheui. In his description of the application, the term 翻 車 fān chē is used three times. While the character 翻 fān is used nines times.

Later I will take a stab at translating the entire passage.

Yao Sing
03-16-2012, 05:11 PM
Based on your description of the principle you can find it all over the place in many different styles. CLF uses a Gwa Choi to break the guard followed by a palm strike to the face. That would follow the Fanche principle but I doubt they would call it Fanche.

Seriously, I thought it was the swinging arm like a cartwheel/waterwheel motion.

Have you seen the Simpsons episode where Bart swings his arms and walks towards Lisa saying he's just swinging his arms and it's her problem if she get in the way and gets hit?

18elders
03-16-2012, 05:17 PM
if i remember correctly the upward circles are lu lu and the downwards are fan che

mooyingmantis
03-16-2012, 05:42 PM
Based on your description of the principle you can find it all over the place in many different styles. CLF uses a Gwa Choi to break the guard followed by a palm strike to the face. That would follow the Fanche principle but I doubt they would call it Fanche.

Seriously, I thought it was the swinging arm like a cartwheel/waterwheel motion.

Have you seen the Simpsons episode where Bart swings his arms and walks towards Lisa saying he's just swinging his arms and it's her problem if she get in the way and gets hit?

Yes, it is not only found in mantis.

The technique is done as you describe. The principle is quite diverse.

Nope, never watched the Simpsons.

Yao Sing
03-16-2012, 05:45 PM
I'm probably wrong but I thought the downward swinging arm was Fanche and the upward swinging Kua (blocking) was Lulu (the defense against Fanche). They can also each be done in the opposite direction.

mooyingmantis
03-16-2012, 05:49 PM
if i remember correctly the upward circles are lu lu and the downwards are fan che

轆 轤 lù lú or "Windlass strike" has the lead arm spinning upwards and contacting the rear hand's palm which rotates downward.

mooyingmantis
03-16-2012, 05:56 PM
I'm probably wrong but I thought the downward swinging arm was Fanche and the upward swinging Kua (blocking) was Lulu (the defense against Fanche). They can also each be done in the opposite direction.

Lulu can be used defensively against Fanche, but it can also be used as an offensive strike in its own right.

Another application is to strike the opponent's arm upward with the lead arm lulu, then immediately follow with a lead arm strike to the opponent's diaphragm ("steal the heart").

Yao Sing
03-16-2012, 06:25 PM
Another application is to strike the opponent's arm upward with the lead arm lulu, then immediate follow with a lead arm strike to the opponent's diaphragm ("steal the heart").

Wah Lum has this also but I don't know what it's called. For the WL lurkers it's near the end of Straight Form after the elbow strike just before the alternating rising blocks (Lulu).

Do you consider the downward motion Lulu also?

mooyingmantis
03-16-2012, 06:31 PM
Wah Lum has this also but I don't know what it's called. For the WL lurkers it's near the end of Straight Form after the elbow strike just before the alternating rising blocks (Lulu).

Do you consider the downward otion Lulu also?

I do not remember a downward single arm lulu type action in any of the mantis forms that I know.

Yao Sing
03-16-2012, 06:59 PM
Ok, let's go to some video (http://www.myspace.com/video/rid/111096405).

Downward strikes here (http://www.myspace.com/video/rid/111096413).

These sections are from a Wah Lum set called Lok Low.

Comments (other than how bad my moves look:))?

Edit: In the second clip, the downward motion, some play it as up-down. I played it just swinging down without the upward block.

mooyingmantis
03-16-2012, 07:24 PM
Ok, let's go to some video (http://www.myspace.com/video/rid/111096405).

Downward strikes here (http://www.myspace.com/video/rid/111096413).

These sections are from a Wah Lum set called Lok Low.

Comments (other than how bad my moves look:))?

Edit: In the second clip, the downward motion, some play it as up-down. I played it just swinging down without the upward block.

Interesting set, it is not like any other version that I have seen.

What does Lok Low mean? Do you have the Chinese characters for the term?

I don't understand your "edit" comment.

What is the application of the downward lulu type move?

MightyB
03-17-2012, 07:20 AM
As further evidence, Wong Hon Fan's description of the technique in Beng Bu never explains the left fist as a beng chui/bung cheui. In his description of the application, the term 翻 車 fān chē is used three times. While the character 翻 fān is used nines times.

Later I will take a stab at translating the entire passage.

Use Ling Bung Bo because... <<sigh>> because you're right on the uppercut. You'll see it used as a "Death Gate" technique.

MightyB
03-17-2012, 07:22 AM
Nope, never watched the Simpsons.

:eek: Blasphemy!!!

18elders
03-17-2012, 02:31 PM
so what's it called when both arms circle upwards one after the other? just Lu? hahah

18elders
03-17-2012, 02:36 PM
i always wonder how literate were these old masters? I mean they may not have even know the proper character or word they really wanted to express.

ninjaboy
03-18-2012, 02:29 AM
i see fanche and lulu as anything and everything from crushing blows in attack and defense to devastating pushes, trips, throws and advanced controlling qin na, all completely interchangeable depending on the attacker's movements, range and intent and your own personal intentions regarding the level of damage u wish to apply. i also think footwork is of particular importance with these techniques in order to use them to full capacity.

i think it all depends on what your attacker does that will dictate how u use fanche/lulu, if at all.

my 2 rmb

: )

neil

MightyB
03-18-2012, 09:10 AM
Two other 7* sequences that have the more traditional Fan Che flavour are Mui Fa Sau 梅花手 and Dai Gah Sik .

mooyingmantis
03-18-2012, 02:29 PM
i see fanche and lulu as anything and everything from crushing blows in attack and defense to devastating pushes, trips, throws and advanced controlling qin na, all completely interchangeable depending on the attacker's movements, range and intent and your own personal intentions regarding the level of damage u wish to apply. i also think footwork is of particular importance with these techniques in order to use them to full capacity.

i think it all depends on what your attacker does that will dictate how u use fanche/lulu, if at all.

my 2 rmb

: )

neil

Neil,
Excellent post!


Two other 7* sequences that have the more traditional Fan Che flavour are Mui Fa Sau 梅花手 and Dai Gah Sik .

MightyB,
Good finds!

梅 花 手 movement fourteen in WHF's quanpu is:

Advance Pattern, Big Water Wheel
jin shi da fan che

mooyingmantis
03-18-2012, 02:52 PM
i also think footwork is of particular importance with these techniques in order to use them to full capacity.

neil

Excellent point!

In the different forms we see various footwork methods employed:

大 翻 車 - dà fān chē - Greater Water Wheel

Here the fanche technique is used from a stationary position and lulu is used with retreating footwork.

小 翻 車 - xiǎo fān chē - Lesser Water Wheel

Here the fanche technique is used stationary and advancing. There is also useage of the fanche principle on a horizontal plane (as in 插 捶 - Cha Chui). Lulu is used with advancing footwork.

中 路 翻 車 - zhōng lù fān chē - Middle Road Water Wheel

Here the fanche technique is used with running and leaping footwork. Perhaps Kevin or Will could comment on the lulu footwork within the form.

梅 花 路 - méi huā lù - Plum Blossom Road

Here the fanche is used with retreating footwork which ends in a leg trip and lulu is used with advancing footwork.

mooyingmantis
03-18-2012, 04:23 PM
Here are Wong Hon Fan's comments under the application section of movement thirteen:

功 用
gōng yòng
Application

拳 經 云
quán jīng yún
The fist classics say,

[ 翻 車 遠 , 而 螳 螂 近 ; 翻 車 速 , 而 螳 螂 密 .]
fān chē yuǎn, ér táng láng jìn ; fān chē sù , ér táng láng mì
"Fanche is distant, but praying mantis is close; fanche is rapid, but praying mantis is dense."

翻 車 之 法 頗 多 ,
fān chē zhī fǎ pō duō ,
Fanche's methods are many,

有 順 翻 , 逆 翻 , 斜 翻 , 倒 翻 ,
yǒu shùn fān , nì fān , xié fān , dǎo fān
such as; Following Turning, Reverse Turning, Slanting Turning, Falling Turning,

皆 為 連 續 之 翻 ,
jiē wéi lián xù zhī fān ,
All are continuously turning,

惟 此 祇 一 翻 便 止 .
wéi cǐ zhǐ yī fān biàn zhǐ .
However, this only turns once then stops.


As always, please feel free to offer suggestions concerning the translation.

Yao Sing
03-18-2012, 05:17 PM
This topic went off the deep end for me. Sounds like everything is Fanche now.

While Fanche might fit the concept of breaking through the guard and striking not all "breaking guard and striking" is Fanche.* At least not IMHO.

Carry on.



*All birds have wings but all winged animals are not birds.

xiao yao
03-18-2012, 05:34 PM
Fan che techniques are purely hard in nature, there is no locking, blocking or countering involved, just smashing through the opponent regardless of how he acts.

lulu chui is an outside circling of the arm, the upward circling somebody mentioned is called wo du chui. your front arm knocks the opponents punching arm upward, then the back arm protects the head and the front arm does a straight gut punch... its exactly the opposite motion to the basic fan che

Kevin has a good article on fan che on his website, also theres some information here http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-187.html

As far as I know, only the lineage coming from Cui Shou Shan has zhong lu fan che

mooyingmantis
03-18-2012, 07:20 PM
Here is my translation of the Wong Hon Fan series quan pu for Da Fanche:

Da Fan Che
Greater Water-Wheel

01. Middle Level, Double Lift Elbows
zhong ping shuang ti zhou
02. Middle Level, Double Falling Strike
zhong ping shuang zhui chui
03. Casting Strike, Right Single Whip
pie chui you dan bian
04. Hill Climbing, Big Water-Wheel
deng shan da fan che
05. Hill Climbing, Big Water-Wheel
deng shan da fan che
06. Hill Climbing, Big Water-Wheel
deng shan da fan che
07. Three Retreating Windlass Strikes
san che lu lu chui
08. Double Grab Hands, Gathering Strike
shuang feng shou tong chui
09. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
10. Hill Climbing, Left Splitting Strike
deng shan zuo pi chui
11. Hill Climbing, Right Straight Gathering
deng shan you zhi tong
12. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
13. Hill Climbing, Left Splitting Strike
deng shan zuo pi chui
14. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
15. Hill Climbing, Left Straight Gathering
deng shan zuo zhi tong
16. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
17. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
18. Hill Climbing, Left Straight Gathering
deng shan zuo zhi tong
19. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
20. Three Retreating Windlass Strikes
san che lu lu chui
21. Turn Body, Reverse Whipping Strike
zhuan shen fan chou chui
22. Right Whip, Left Colliding Strike
you chou zuo chong chui
23. Hill Climbing, Right Single Whip
deng shan you dan bian
24. Hill Climbing, Big Water-Wheel
deng shan da fan che
25. Double Grab Hand, Gathering Strike
shuang feng shou tong chui
26. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
27. Hill Climbing, Left Straight Gathering
deng shan zuo zhi tong
28. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
29. Skim Strike, Right Single Whip
pie chui you dan bian
30. Hill Climbing, Big Water-Wheel
deng shan da fan che
31. Double Grab Hands, Gather Horse
shuang feng shou tong ma
32. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
33. Hill Climbing, Left Straight Gathering
deng shan zuo zhi tong
34. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
35. Turn Body, Reverse Whipping Strike
zhuan shen fan chou chui
36. Rushing Leg, Lower Catch Cicada
pu tui di bu chan
37. Scurrying Jump, Turn Body Pattern
cuan tiao hui shen shi
38. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
39. Hill Climbing, Left Straight Gathering
deng shan zuo zhi tong
40. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
41. Hill Climbing, Right Crushing Strike
deng shan you beng chui
42. Right Close Door Leg Method
you bi men tui fa
43. Ride Tiger, Double Windlass Strike
kua hu shuang lu chui
44. Lift Leg, Left Circle Strike
ti tui zuo quan chui
45. Grab Hand, Right Straight Gathering
feng shou you zhi tong
46. Gathering Strike, Ten Character Leg
tong chui shi zi tui
47. Horse Pattern, Right Splitting Stop
ma shi you pi ga
48. Ten Character, Left Straight Gathering
shi zi zuo zhi tong
49. Ride Tiger, Left Single Whip
kua hu zuo dan bian
50. Middle Level, Double Lift Elbows
zhong ping shuang ti zhou
51. Middle Level, Double Falling Strike
zhong ping shuang zhui chui

MightyB
03-19-2012, 04:53 AM
This topic went off the deep end for me. Sounds like everything is Fanche now.

While Fanche might fit the concept of breaking through the guard and striking not all "breaking guard and striking" is Fanche.* At least not IMHO.

Carry on.



*All birds have wings but all winged animals are not birds.

We need a *Like button.

mooyingmantis
03-19-2012, 02:38 PM
This topic went off the deep end for me. Sounds like everything is Fanche now.

While Fanche might fit the concept of breaking through the guard and striking not all "breaking guard and striking" is Fanche.* At least not IMHO.

Carry on.



*All birds have wings but all winged animals are not birds.

Not everything is fanche.

However, Fanche is considered the starting point in many Meihua lineage families in the same way as Cha Chui is considered the starting point for many Qixing lineage families.

So, it is quite influential.

mooyingmantis
03-19-2012, 02:52 PM
Here is my translation of Wong Hon Fan's Xiaofanche quan pu:

Xiao Fan Che
Lesser Water Wheel

01. Middle Level, Double Lift Elbows
zhong ping shuang ti zhou
02. Middle Level, Double Falling Strike
zhong ping shuang zhui chui
03. Casting Strike, Right Single Whip
pie chui you dan bian
04. Hill Climbing, Big Water Wheel
deng shan da fan che
05. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
06. Hill Climbing, Left Gather Strike
deng shan zuo tong chui
07. Hill Climbing, Right Piercing Strike
deng shan you chuan chui
08. Retreating Jump, Right Lifting Strike
zou tiao you tiao chui
09. Enter Ring, Right Folding Elbow
ru huan you die zhou
10. Enter Ring, Right Crushing Strike
ru huan you beng chui
11. Retreat Pattern, Left Gathering Strike
che shi zuo tong chui
12. Horse Pattern, Steal Heart Strike
ma shi tou xin chui
13. Enter Ring, Stomach Strike
ru huan wo du chui
14. Enter Ring, Piercing Gathering Strike
ru huan chuan tong chui
15. Enter Ring, Splitting Gathering Strike
ru huan pi tong chui
16. Leaping Jump, Piercing Splitting Strike
zong tiao chuan pi chui
17. Leaping Jump, Hang Splitting Strike
zong tiao gua pi chui
18. Leaping Jump, Slant Whip Strike
zong tiao shan chou chui
19. Collapse Stance, Seal Lower Skim
tun chang feng di pie
20. Seven Star, Three Phoenix Eyes
qi xing san feng yan
21. Seven Star, Double Hang Strikes
qi xing shuang gua chui
22. Twist Body, Double Hang Strikes
niu shen shuang gua chui
23. Seven Star, Pierce Lower Skim
qi xing chuan di pie
24. Advance Pattern, Three Windlass Strikes
jin shi san lu lu
25. Hill Climbing, Right Splitting Strike
deng shan you pi chui
26. Hill Climbing, Left Gathering Strike
deng shan zuo tong chui
27. Hill Climbing, Right Piercing Strike
deng shan you chuan chui
28. Circle Hand, Ten Character Strike
quan shou shi zi chui
29. Seven Star, Upper Whip Strike
qi xing shang chou chui
30. Left Right Continuous Strike
zuo you lian huan chui
31. Seven Star, Piercing Lower Skim
qi xing chuan di pie
32. Hill Climbing, Right Circle Strike
deng shan you quan chui
33. Hill Climbing, Left Circle Strike
deng shan zuo quan chui
34. Hill Climbing, Right Circle Strike
deng shan you quan chui
35. Hill Climbing, Seal Gathering Strike
deng shan feng tong chui
36. Ride Tiger, Lift Gathering Strike
kua hu tiao tong chui

mooyingmantis
03-19-2012, 05:24 PM
Fan che techniques are purely hard in nature, there is no locking, blocking or countering involved, just smashing through the opponent regardless of how he acts.

Will's quote is a good introduction to the spirit behind the first Fanche combination I teach my students:

Dafanche - Movements 3 & 4

Left Casting Strike, Right Single Whip & Big Water-Wheel

Throw a left backfist toward the opponent's temple.

The opponent blocks the backfist with his left arm.

Convert the backfist into a hook hand and attach it to the opponent's blocking arm at the wrist. Then step forward with the right foot and throw a right hook punch to the opponent's left temple.

The opponent bobs underneath the hook punch.

Immediately convert the right hook punch into a right downward chop to crash through the opponent's lead guard hand and follow with a left downward chop to the opponent's collarbone.

We train this as a partner drill, on B.O.B. and with focus mitts.

Here are photos of the drill done solo: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150683616224481.412740.750549480&type=1

Anyone else want to share a favorite combination from the Fanche forms or using the fanche/lulu principles?

Tainan Mantis
03-20-2012, 11:03 AM
Kevin has a good article on fan che on his website, also theres some information here http://www.mantisquarterly.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-187.html

As far as I know, only the lineage coming from Cui Shou Shan has zhong lu fan che

In that link the information posted by Ilya was also told to me, almost the same, as what was told to me by Zhou Zhendong. This makes sense since Zhou Zhendong also taught Zhong Lu Fanche to Ilya.

In the post linked by Will (Xiao Yao) there is the story of Li Danbai. Li Danbai is the contemporary of Jiang Hualong.

Fanche Enters Mantis
Li Danbai and Jiang Hualong's collaboration brought these Fanche techniques into Jiang Hualong's Mantis.

When does Fanche appear in Mantis before Li Danbai?
Can anyone name the appearance of Fanche in Mantis before Li Danbai?

Fanche appears in Illustrated Transformations of Luohan Short Strikes, but how do we relate that body of material to anything that we do today?

An article that I wrote called Leaping Fist of Fanche (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/pre%2009/2008/leaping%20fist%20fanche.htm) describes key points of fanche and quotes from Luohan Short Strikes.

Where is the clear line of transmission from Luohan Short Strikes to the Praying Mantis of today?

Or is there no line of transmission between Luohan Short Strikes and now?

mooyingmantis
03-21-2012, 02:51 PM
Kevin,
Excellent questions! Do you think there can ever be or will ever be definitive answers?

mooyingmantis
03-21-2012, 06:31 PM
Here are Wong Hon Fan's comments on the fanche technique used in Mei Hua Lu movement fifteen:

若 被 包 圍 ,
ruò bèi bāo wéi ,
If about to be surrounded,

則 翻 車 之 手 為 可 用 也 .
zé fān chē zhī shǒu wéi kě yòng yě
then the Fanche hands can be used.

In Mei Hua Lu, fanche has downward spinning chops coupled with quick, alternating, backward retreating steps.

xiao yao
03-21-2012, 06:35 PM
Yes, I think fan che techniques are like an "if all else fails" idea. After all, it is just refined windmilling!

mooyingmantis
03-22-2012, 06:06 PM
Tonight in class I decided to see how well my students were grasping the fanche principle after a couple weeks of practicing the drills. So we put on the MMA gloves and hopped up on the leitai.

Dominic, my lankiest student, was able to apply the technique effectively against his classmates. His long arms whipped in and tagged the others over and over. It was fun to watch. :)

Dominic is the least aggressive of my students and I am hoping his success with fanche will help cure his timidity.

Yao Sing
03-22-2012, 06:19 PM
All he needs is to find something that works for him and that will boost his confidence level. Watch out, you might just create a monster. :D

mooyingmantis
03-23-2012, 03:35 PM
Mike Dasargo posted a good clip on YouTube demonstrating the Fanche principle on several planes. I thought you might enjoy it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WecMuSUkgac&feature=related

mooyingmantis
03-27-2012, 05:26 PM
For fanche and lulu to be effective, a few upper body prerequisites are in order:

1. The shoulder joints must be loose.
Stretching and arm windmilling can help accomplish this.

2. The shoulder muscles must be strong.
Windmilling with LIGHT weights (2 - 5 lbs wrist weights or dumbbells are enough) is a good start. Lifting with cables and weights, plus elastic bands are also good equipment-based exercises.

3. The forearms must be conditioned.
The ulna (for fanche) and radius (for lulu and reverse fanche) bones of the forearm can be conditioned through traditional three star striking on a post or training partner. Rolling a metal bar along the ulna and radius is also a good conditioning method.

mooyingmantis
04-02-2012, 04:58 PM
Two moves from Xiaofanche can also be found in Zhai Yao San Lu movements twenty-four and twenty-five.

Here are their names from the quanpu of Zhai Yao San Lu and a brief description:

回 身 六 手 翻 車 - huí shēn liù shǒu fān chē - Turn Body, Six Hands Fanche

Step the left foot forward with a left downward chop. Step the right foot forward with a right downward chop. Hop forward onto the left foot with a left downward chop. Step the right foot forward with a right downward chop. Follow with a left downward chop and a right downward chop from a stationary right Small Hill Climbing stance. The last right chop lands at knee height with the left arm held overhead guarding the top of the head.

一 肘 遮 半 身 - yī zhǒu zhē bàn shēn - One Elbow Shields Half the Body

Shuffle three steps forward with the level arm rising, falling, rising, falling, and rising in a blocking maneuver followed by a right insert strike. Each time the arm rises to block, the left rear foot comes up and touches the heel of the front right foot. Each time the lead right foot advances the arm drops to block, until the third shuffle when the right lead fist thrusts forward.

The moves can be seen here at 32:19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8N7PPr7Ngo

The moves are explained in detail at 32:40

xiao yao
04-02-2012, 09:21 PM
both those movements appear in zhong lu fan che, but with different names.

the second movement is done while retreating with more of a leaping type step

mooyingmantis
04-03-2012, 04:29 AM
both those movements appear in zhong lu fan che, but with different names.

the second movement is done while retreating with more of a leaping type step

Interesting!

I believe the first movement is called zou ma fan che ("running horse turning wheel") in zhonglu fanche, correct?

I have always seen the second movement done with advancing leaps. So that is a different take on the movement. Are the leaps meant for breaking contact with the opponent to regroup?

Thanks for sharing!

Tainan Mantis
04-03-2012, 07:27 AM
一 肘 遮 半 身 - yī zhǒu zhē bàn shēn - One Elbow Shields Half the Body

The moves can be seen here at 32:19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8N7PPr7Ngo

The moves are explained in detail at 32:40

Where is 'one elbow shields half the body'?
It is on 3rd zhai yao.

What other form?
None that I know of. How do you determine that it is in Xiao Fanche 2nd rd? Which family teaches it this way?

Yes, there is move in Xiao Fanche that looks like 'one elbow shields half the body' but who says that it is the same (I mean besides you?)?

Zhai Yao forms are clearly recorded from the era of their creation, but I have never seen or heard that there is a Xiao Fanche manuscript that clearly was written in the era of its creation.

Tainan Mantis
04-03-2012, 07:38 AM
Here are some Xiao Fanche clips to compare.

Here is one of the versions (of three) that my Teacher Shi Zhengzhong learned from a man who studied with Zhao Zhuxi BEFORE he taught in Vietnam.

CCK Taichi mantis xiao Fan che (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAJ9HEdonms)

That odd jumping chop in the 2nd rd is what you are calling one elbow sheilds half the body?

Wang Chieh Laoshi: Xiao Fan Che Quan, Babu Tang Lang (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQDM-_sPV5U)

Wang Jie, student of Wei Xiaotang does the same form, though this video is very unclear, you can see that around :38 they jump and chop. Just like in the Taiji Mantis version from Zhao Zhuxi. Think about the degrees of seperation between those two lineages of Mantis, this is the ONLY form they have in common (you can check me on that fact) and yet, I know for a fact that they both do this form in a very similar fashion. Mostly some stylistic differences, but the moves are, under that style, mostly the same.

In other words, NO One Elbow Shields half the Body.

Tainan Mantis
04-03-2012, 07:47 AM
both those movements appear in zhong lu fan che, but with different names.

the second movement is done while retreating with more of a leaping type step

In Zhong Lufanche the retreating move that you refer to is called
"Golden Cicada Escapes it Shell"
I think it is not the same as One Elbow shields half the body.

One move is an escape and one move is a short range strike. Is hard to draw a parrallel between them.

I believe that Golden Cicada Escapes its Shell, while describing the technique that you do quite graphically, and poetically, might also be a reference to a character in some old martial art novel from dynasties past. Who escapes me at the moment. Have you heard of who is called Golden Cicada?

I want to say it was Tang Sanzang's name before he was incarnated as a humble monk. but I have to check. If it is Tang Sanzang then it probably refers to his enlightenment as a monk and realization that he was an immortal being at the end of the novel Xi You Ji

mooyingmantis
04-03-2012, 09:17 AM
Where is 'one elbow shields half the body'?
It is on 3rd zhai yao.

What other form?
None that I know of. How do you determine that it is in Xiao Fanche 2nd rd? Which family teaches it this way?

Yes, there is move in Xiao Fanche that looks like 'one elbow shields half the body' but who says that it is the same (I mean besides you?)?

Zhai Yao forms are clearly recorded from the era of their creation, but I have never seen or heard that there is a Xiao Fanche manuscript that clearly was written in the era of its creation.

Wow! Was that attitude really necessary?

Every family that has Xiao Fanche has the movement with hopping. Perhaps it is not called by the same name, since different families use different names for the same technique.

In the Mimen Tanglangquan of Su Yu Zhang the movement in Xiao Fanche is interpreted as a wrist grab and descending elbow break.

Thank you for offering a different or more accurate explanation! :)

Tainan Mantis
04-03-2012, 11:50 AM
Wow! Was that attitude really necessary?
forum is an attitude free zone for me,

Tainan Mantis
04-03-2012, 11:53 AM
In the Mimen Tanglangquan of Su Yu Zhang the movement in Xiao Fanche is interpreted as a wrist grab and descending elbow break.

Zhang Dekui did not teach Xiao Fanche. Su Yuzhang's Xiao Fanche is from Eight Step. He learned from Wei Xiaotang. The Wutan schools in Taiwan all teach it at their university clubs. Every night when they have class you can see them training and teaching to the freshman, either Lipi or Xiao Fanche.

mooyingmantis
04-03-2012, 01:39 PM
Zhang Dekui did not teach Xiao Fanche. Su Yuzhang's Xiao Fanche is from Eight Step. He learned from Wei Xiaotang. The Wutan schools in Taiwan all teach it at their university clubs. Every night when they have class you can see them training and teaching to the freshman, either Lipi or Xiao Fanche.

OK, in the Babu Tanglangquan of Su Yu Zhang the movement in Xiao Fanche is interpreted as a wrist grab and descending elbow break. :)

mooyingmantis
04-03-2012, 04:54 PM
In the Qixing Tanglangquan version of Dafanche we have the move:

撇 捶 右 單 鞭 - piē chuí yòu dān biān - Casting Strike, Right Single Whip

Tonight I touched on one strategy of this move in class. Though I may be "preaching to the choir", I thought someone might benefit from my explanation.

The casting strike is a long arm, outward swinging back-fist type motion. It is followed by a long range, inward swinging hook strike.

I explained to my students that the initial strike, if done as in the form, is a very easy to anticipate attack. I believe that this intentionally inspires (叫 - jiào - provoke) the opponent to extend his left arm to block and create an opening. The left casting strike converts to a grab (粘 - zhān - paste). The right leg steps in contacting and pressing against the opponent's left leg (貼 - tiē - lean), while the right hook punch strikes the opponent in the head. Alternately, the right forearm can contact the opponent's neck to uproot.

In this situation, the casting strike is a misdirection (虛 - xū - false), while the single whip is the intended strike (實 - shí - real).

Note: I often use the quanpu of Master Wong Hon Fan because it is very clear and concise. Yet, that does not mean his descendants will all necessarily agree with the interpretation.

xiao yao
04-03-2012, 05:21 PM
Sorry, I havent learnt zhai yao third road, so I was just going by richards description and thought it sounded similar

master zhou said that zhai yao 3 contains several fan che techniques, which im curious as to how, as zhai yao is older than fan che in mantis

mooyingmantis
04-03-2012, 06:03 PM
Sorry, I havent learnt zhai yao third road, so I was just going by richards description and thought it sounded similar

master zhou said that zhai yao 3 contains several fan che techniques, which im curious as to how, as zhai yao is older than fan che in mantis

Then, when you consider that the Lulu technique (found in Dafanche, Xiaofanche and Meihua Lu) is also found in Zhai Yao Wu Lu movement twenty-three it gets curiouser and curiouser. :D

Michael Dasargo
04-03-2012, 10:31 PM
OK, in the Babu Tanglangquan of Su Yu Zhang the movement in Xiao Fanche is interpreted as a wrist grab and descending elbow break. :)

Not sure if you're referring to the jump and chop, but per Zhang Jia Chang, the application is jumping over sweeps and chopping down on the neck.

M.

mooyingmantis
04-04-2012, 01:04 PM
Mike,

That was exactly what I was referring to. Thank you for the informed response!

Who is Zhang Jia Chang? To which family of mantis does he belong?

Michael Dasargo
04-04-2012, 01:12 PM
for surrrrrrre (steve carrel voice)

Zhang "John" Chang Babu TangLang

Mike D.

mooyingmantis
04-04-2012, 04:42 PM
for surrrrrrre (steve carrel voice)

Zhang "John" Chang Babu TangLang

Mike D.

Thanks Mike!

In the WHF quanpu for Xiaofanche the three hops with strikes (movements 16-18) are referred to as:

Leaping Jump, Piercing Splitting Strike
zong tiao chuan pi chui
Leaping Jump, Hang Splitting Strike
zong tiao gua pi chui
Leaping Jump, Slant Drawing Strike
zong tiao xie chou chui

They can be seen here at 00:10 - 00:13:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us1the3QuQc&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL7787EE1CED65CAAB

mantis108
04-04-2012, 10:10 PM
Here are some Xiao Fanche clips to compare.

Here is one of the versions (of three) that my Teacher Shi Zhengzhong learned from a man who studied with Zhao Zhuxi BEFORE he taught in Vietnam.

CCK Taichi mantis xiao Fan che (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAJ9HEdonms)

That odd jumping chop in the 2nd rd is what you are calling one elbow sheilds half the body?

Wang Chieh Laoshi: Xiao Fan Che Quan, Babu Tang Lang (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQDM-_sPV5U)

Wang Jie, student of Wei Xiaotang does the same form, though this video is very unclear, you can see that around :38 they jump and chop. Just like in the Taiji Mantis version from Zhao Zhuxi. Think about the degrees of seperation between those two lineages of Mantis, this is the ONLY form they have in common (you can check me on that fact) and yet, I know for a fact that they both do this form in a very similar fashion. Mostly some stylistic differences, but the moves are, under that style, mostly the same.

In other words, NO One Elbow Shields half the Body.

Hi Kevin,

I believe GM Chiu taught Xiao Fanche in Macau and Vietnam but not in HK. I also believe that our version is missing Luo Bu Fan Che and Shang Bu Lu Lu - 2 moves.

BTW, I recently learned this set and the 12 Old Men form from a student of Kwang Kwan Wei. According to this Sihing, there is no Luo Bu Fan Che and Shang Bu Lu Lu in our Fanche form. But I have try doing the form with these two moves in it and it seems to me that it feels better including these two moves. Just thought you might be interested to know.

Warmest regard

Robert

Tainan Mantis
04-05-2012, 06:00 AM
I also learned a version of fan che where the lulu was in place and very short. Very unlike the other versions. So, maybe a different way of doing the moves.

mooyingmantis
04-05-2012, 02:58 PM
In Zhang Bingdou's book on Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan (shang), he describes the lulu technique found in Essentials #5 movement twenty-three.

Here is my paraphrase:

轆 轆 捶 - lù lù chuí - Lulu Strike

As the enemy raises a foot, I turn to the outside and suspend his foot,
As the enemy extends a hand, I turn to the outside and suspend his hand.
If enemy's hand and foot are not extended, I strike his upper and lower areas.

Lulu in this instance is a clockwise rotation of the outstretched right arm that emphasizes the rotation of the arm by means of the shoulder's ball and socket joint.

In Master Zhang's book, there are two rotations of the right arm coupled with two steps.

Each steps begins with the left foot crossing behind the right foot (扭 步 - niǔ bù - Twist Step) to advance toward the enemy. Each step ends with the right foot advancing forward toward the enemy.

As Master Zhang explains, the movement can be used defensively to block/strike/lift the enemy's foot or arm. As an offensive movement, the upward rotation can be used to strike the back of the enemy's head and the downward swing can be used to swing into the enemy's groin.

mooyingmantis
04-06-2012, 05:25 PM
Essentials #5 movement twenty-four:

回 身 翻 車 - huí shēn fān chē - Turn Body Fanche

Pivot 180 degrees and strike downward with the left fist to strike down the opponent's guard or attack the head. Then step the right foot forward and chop downward to the opponent's head with the right fist.

mooyingmantis
04-07-2012, 06:08 PM
Lulu in Essentials #6 movement thirty-six:

轆 轆 捶 窜 跳 走 出 - lù lù chuí cuàn tiào zǒu chū - Lulu Strike, Scurrying Forth

This is reminiscent of the same technique in Essentials #5 mentioned above.

iunojupiter
04-10-2012, 11:42 AM
wrong post dude?

mooyingmantis
04-10-2012, 01:30 PM
wrong post dude?

Yeah, I think he forgot which thread he was in. :rolleyes: His message to Andy should probably have been in the Wang Lang Project thread here:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63393

Ninjaboy,
No offense taken. :) Sometimes my posts are general, sometimes they target a specific audience in a specific family of mantis.

Sometimes I post the Chinese characters so others can copy and paste them into a search engine and do their own research on Chinese sites.

Most families of mantis practice the fanche principles and the fanche forms of the different families are not that different from one another. HK Seven Star Xiaofanche is very similar to Mainland Seven Star Xiaofanche and Mainland Taiji Meihua Xiaofanche. So it is not like trying to compare Laiyang Beng Bu and Yantai Beng Bu. The frames of reference for fanche should be very close.

ninjaboy
04-10-2012, 05:17 PM
doh!!! me smart like dumptruck...my most sincere apologies to all...

will remove and repost...

stupid ninja,

neil

mooyingmantis
04-10-2012, 05:57 PM
doh!!! me smart like dumptruck...my most sincere apologies to all...

will remove and repost...

stupid ninja,

neil

LOL! No harm, no foul.

mooyingmantis
04-11-2012, 02:47 PM
In Zhong Lufanche the retreating move that you refer to is called
"Golden Cicada Escapes it Shell"
I think it is not the same as One Elbow shields half the body.

One move is an escape and one move is a short range strike. Is hard to draw a parrallel between them.

I believe that Golden Cicada Escapes its Shell, while describing the technique that you do quite graphically, and poetically, might also be a reference to a character in some old martial art novel from dynasties past. Who escapes me at the moment. Have you heard of who is called Golden Cicada?

I want to say it was Tang Sanzang's name before he was incarnated as a humble monk. but I have to check. If it is Tang Sanzang then it probably refers to his enlightenment as a monk and realization that he was an immortal being at the end of the novel Xi You Ji

I found this at Wikipedia:

In China, the phrase 'to shed off the golden cicada skin'(金蝉脱壳, pinyin: Jīn Chán tuōké) is the poetic name of the tactic of using deception to escape danger, specifically of using decoys (leaving the old shell) to fool enemies. It became one of the 36 classic Chinese strategems. In the Chinese classic Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Diaochan also got her name from the sable (diāo) tails and jade decorations in the shape of cicadas (chán), which at the time adorned the hats of high-level officials. In the Chinese classic Journey to the West, the protagonist Priest of Tang was named the Golden Cicada; in this context the multiple shedding of shell of the cicada symbolizes the many stages of transformation required of a person before all illusions have been broken and one reaches enlightenment. This is also referred to in Japanese mythical ninja lore, as the technique of utsusemi (i.e., literally cicada), where ninjas would trick opponents into attacking a decoy.

Not always the best source for scholarship, but most of us are not really scholars anyways. :)

Tainan Mantis
04-12-2012, 12:00 PM
Thanks for digging up that info.
I forgot about the 36 stratagems book. I should know, I have that one. The stratagem sounds like a good definition.
THis technique is also called shi mian mai fu-10 direction ambush.

mooyingmantis
04-12-2012, 05:49 PM
Thanks for digging up that info.
I forgot about the 36 stratagems book. I should know, I have that one. The stratagem sounds like a good definition.
THis technique is also called shi mian mai fu-10 direction ambush.

Glad to help!

mooyingmantis
04-12-2012, 06:12 PM
Tonight in class, I used our 双 匕 首 - shuāng bǐ shǒu - double daggers taolu to teach the principles of fanche and lulu.

Though they had learned the form previously, tonight I showed them how the empty-hand techniques of fanche and lulu were manifested in the long arm strikes of the double daggers.

It was fun watching the light bulbs switch on as they rediscovered the double daggers form and the principles of fanche and lulu began to sink in.

mooyingmantis
04-14-2012, 07:47 PM
The Lulu and Fanche techniques can be found in the WHF Hong Kong Qixing Tanglangquan set 大 架 式 - dà jià shì - Big Frame Pattern:

Movement Thirty-five
Retreat Step, Three Lulu

Movement Thirty-nine
Advance Pattern, Big Fanche

Movement Forty
Retreat Step, Big Fanche

Here are the movements in another version of the form performed by Zhou Baofu at 00:38 - 00:50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yO4V5oTAdcY

mooyingmantis
04-16-2012, 04:54 PM
Here is a short clip of my son, Logan, demonstrating the first fanchequan combination that we practice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elU4O2uULOI&feature=youtu.be

mooyingmantis
08-23-2012, 01:01 PM
Has anyone heard this origin story before?

http://www.rengongfuschool.com/kungfu/renfist.php

"Fanche Lulu Chui, of which the Ren Fist is a derivative, belongs to the Shaolin Tanglang (Praying mantis) system. Its forms are well-organized in structure for attack & defense with strikes and defense movements that are plain & practical. The forms are focused and built around the Lulu Fist & Mandarin Ducks Feet of the traditional styles of Northern Chinese Gongfu. Fanche Lulu Chui is a highly sought after style by educated practitioners of the Chinese Martial Arts.

Fanche was created by Master Xu Sheng Xiao, a famous Shaolin disciple during the early Qing Dynasty. After leaving Shaolin, Master Xu first traveled to Shandong province. Because Master Xu liked the local rural way of life, he stayed in Zhang Ge Zhuang Village of Laixi City (the current location of the Ren Shi Gong Fu Academy) and passed his Xiaofanche fist to Master Ren Zhao Hua, who then integrated the Shaolin style with his traditional Shandong Mantis training and formed RenShi Xiaofanche."

mooyingmantis
08-23-2012, 01:20 PM
I found this archived from the Mantis Quarterly form:

"My name is Ilya Profatilov and I am new to this forum.

Here is some information on Fanche based on my research and from my perspective only.

Classical Meihua Tanglang Quan of Liang Xuexiang (1810-?) did not have Fanche forms.

Fanche forms appeared in some branches of Meihua Tanglang Quan since the late 1800s and/or early 1900s.

Today, there are generally two very different forms of Fanche that are practiced in a greater Meihua Tanglang Quan community.


1. Fanche of Taiji Tanglang Quan.

It is called Zhonglu Fanche (Middle Road of Turning Waterwheel). This form was brought into and heavily mixed with traditional Taiji Tanglang by GM Jiang Hualong and GM Song Zide. It is a quite rarely seen form and is practiced only in Taiji Tanglang of GM Jiang Hualong's lineage.

This from was developed from the earlier Zhonglu Fanche taught to Jiang Hualong and Song Zide by their sworn brother and a later disciple of Jiang — Li Danbai. Li Danbai learned it in Hebei Province and was very skillful in it. Most of the techniques of Zhonglu Fanche are very different from Haojia TLQ Xiao Fanche (see later). Some of these techniques are Zouma Fanche, Koushou Fanche, Liushou Fanche, Wushou Fanche, Zuoyou Fanche, Jinchan Tuoke, etc.


2. Fanche of Taiji Meihua Tanglang Quan also known as Haojia Tanglang.

This form is called Xiao Fanche (Small Turning Waterwheel) and is the most common Fanche form today in a greater Meihua Tanglang Quan community. Xiao Fanche was taught by GM Hao Lianru (1865-1914) and his sons, Hao Henglu, Hao Hengxin, Hao Hengpo, Hao Hengxiang and Hao Hengyi. It has no or very little relations to Taiji Tanglang’s Zhonglu Fanche. Eventually, Da Fanche (Big) and Zhong (Middle) were developed out the “Small” Fanche. Xiao Fanche and its variations can be found in Haojia Tanglang, Babu Tanglang, Jingshou Tanglang, Shuaishou Tanglang, etc."

Tainan Mantis
08-26-2012, 09:09 AM
Fanche was created by Master Xu Sheng Xiao, a famous Shaolin disciple during the early Qing Dynasty.

Is the idea that Xu Shengxiao supposed to be Sheng Xiao dao ren? That seems unlikely since it does not follow Chinese nameing conventions. I am not an expert on the custom, but generally your ming and your zi or hao differnt names that you give yourself or are given to you at different stages of your life do not match, they are different.
For example the Shoushan of Cui Shoushan has the zi of Pengnian.

The story is very interesting. I would like to see the form they have.

Ilya's research on Zhonglu Fanche matches my own.

mooyingmantis
08-26-2012, 09:57 AM
Here is a video I made of four of the drills we practice at my school that demonstrate the Fanche principles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqn-32EnzK8&feature=youtu.be

No, my form is not perfect. I am only about four months past my open heart surgery and my left arm still has very little strength and mobility. But I think you will still get the idea of the drills.

The opening clip is my son, Logan, demonstrating the first drill a few months ago.

Tainan Mantis
08-26-2012, 02:22 PM
Here is a video I made of four of the drills

I meant that I would like to see the Ren Family fanche lulu fist form.
Glad to see open heart surgery doesn't stop your kung fu training.
I will use that as one of my stories next time someone in class looks like they are getting tired (ok with you?).

mooyingmantis
08-26-2012, 06:21 PM
I meant that I would like to see the Ren Family fanche lulu fist form.

Kevin,
Yes, I knew what you meant. I just happened to find that website while Googling Fanche. I had never heard of them or that version of Fanche history. So, I posted it to see if anyone else here had heard of either.


Glad to see open heart surgery doesn't stop your kung fu training.

Thanks! I wish my wife was a glad. LOL!


I will use that as one of my stories next time someone in class looks like they are getting tired (ok with you?).

LOL! Ok with me. Though some may say my forty plus years love for the arts borders on fanaticism. Oh well, we are all examples whether for good or bad. :)

mooyingmantis
09-03-2012, 12:21 PM
Where is 'one elbow shields half the body'?
It is on 3rd zhai yao.

What other form?
None that I know of. How do you determine that it is in Xiao Fanche 2nd rd? Which family teaches it this way?

In this version of the Taiji Meihua Tanglangquan Xiao Fanche, in the second line, I believe we see "one elbow shields half of the body" in place of the leaping and striking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGACT8s4Zk8

Sorry that it took a while to find this again to answer your question.

Tainan Mantis
09-04-2012, 12:31 PM
in the second line, I believe we see "one elbow shields half of the body" in place of the leaping and striking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGACT8s4Zk8
Yes, I see it there.
Why is it there?
Is 'one elbow shields half the body' there because it was always there?
Or is it because the original technque is too odd, and therefore the teacher made a change?

I happen the suspect the latter.
I notice that the end of this version of xiao fanche does not conform to traditional characteristics of this form.
Moves at the end such as waist chop are not found in xiao fanche

mooyingmantis
09-04-2012, 05:28 PM
Yes, I see it there.
Why is it there?
Is 'one elbow shields half the body' there because it was always there?
Or is it because the original technque is too odd, and therefore the teacher made a change?

I happen the suspect the latter.
I notice that the end of this version of xiao fanche does not conform to traditional characteristics of this form.
Moves at the end such as waist chop are not found in xiao fanche

Yes, I agree on all points.

The wide spread use of the hopping and chopping in the Qixing, Babu and Pachi families would point to your opinion as being the correct one.

Though here is another Taiji Meihua school that uses the "one elbow shields half the body":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2inEvZGbnc

In this video the ending is quite a bit longer.

BTW, do you have the traditional name for the hopping and chopping technique? I know what it is called in HK QXTLQ, but not in the Meihua ancestry lines.

Thank you!

Paul T England
09-05-2012, 03:49 AM
great discussion.

Would anyone like to give thoughts on the difference between WHF small Wheel and CCM versions. I have done both Dai Fan Che and Siu Fan Che from LKW lineage.

The Siu Fan Che I was taught is completely different to the WHF anniversary party version.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

mooyingmantis
09-05-2012, 04:10 PM
great discussion.

Would anyone like to give thoughts on the difference between WHF small Wheel and CCM versions. I have done both Dai Fan Che and Siu Fan Che from LKW lineage.

The Siu Fan Che I was taught is completely different to the WHF anniversary party version.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

Paul,
Good topic!

I cannot speak specifically on the WHF vs CCM Xiao Fanche, since I have not yet seen the CCM version. Care to put it up on YouTube?

However, last week my NPM instructor, Mike Biggie, and I were discussing the differences between the actual fanche movements of the CCM and WHF lines. Sifu Biggie has trained in both the WHF and CCM lines.

The WHF fanche movement is longer and the circles reach from front to rear to front. Both the front and the sides are fully guarded.

The CCM fanche movement whirls more in front of the body, rather than reaching to the rear.

He explained that while the WHF whirling is designed more for wide range blocking and striking, the CCM whirling emphasizes more compact catching and striking.

To paint a clearer picture of what I mean, let us picture three swinging motions within each fanche:

WHF - the right forearm smashes down the enemy's first incoming attack, the left forearm smashes down the enemy's second incoming attack, the right fist crashes into the top of the enemy's head.

CCM - the right hand swings in to capture the enemy's first incoming wrist, the left hand swings in to capture the enemy's second incoming wrist, the right hand crashes into the junction of the enemy's neck and shoulder.

Clear as mud yet?

Tainan Mantis
09-05-2012, 06:46 PM
do you have the traditional name for the hopping and chopping technique? I know what it is called in HK QXTLQ, but not in the Meihua ancestry lines.

Thank you!

No, I don't.

mooyingmantis
09-06-2012, 05:18 PM
No, I don't.

Ok, thank you anyways!

Does anyone else know the traditional name of this move?

Kui De Tang
09-08-2012, 02:39 AM
The original name for this posture in Seven Stars Praying Mantis was 'luàn pī chái' (Splitting firewood) also known as 'mā xiù luàn pī chái' (Slipping off one's sleeve & splitting firewood).

The posture you are trying to describe is 'jiá zhǒu'. Within old Seven Stars Praying Mantis this was found in the forms Da Fanche and Chachui not Xiao Fanche.

Best wishes,

Jaime Rodriguez

mooyingmantis
09-08-2012, 11:25 AM
The original name for this posture in Seven Stars Praying Mantis was 'luàn pī chái' (Splitting firewood) also known as 'mā xiù luàn pī chái' (Slipping off one's sleeve & splitting firewood).

The posture you are trying to describe is 'jiá zhǒu'. Within old Seven Stars Praying Mantis this was found in the forms Da Fanche and Chachui not Xiao Fanche.

Best wishes,

Jaime Rodriguez

Thank you for your response! Very Informative!

Would these be the correct Chinese characters?

亂 劈 柴
抹 袖 亂 劈 柴
頡 肘

How does your branch interpret the application?

mooyingmantis
09-08-2012, 12:15 PM
Does anyone recognize this version of fanche?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GAQRv9fMcM&feature=youtu.be

It looks like the Xiao Fanche of Wang Rengang (MHTLQ) to me.