Does Wing Chun have Knee Strikes?

[Yoshiyahu]

Does Wing Chun have knee Strikes?

I mean of course you have raising knee to maintain the centerline when a opponent attacks or kicks. You lift the knee up to cover your vital areas. But can Lifting knee be also utilize as an attack?

In my WC every attack is a defense and every defense is an attack...

[Eric_H]

Yep. What kind of Kung fu doesn't?

[k gledhill]

108 knee strikes. Theres a knee dummy and kneeling pole form along with fighting on your knees if you get cut in the knife form.
Oh and chi-knee, extensively done in private lessons with, ykw...

[Yoshiyahu]

I perfer flying knees. Knees to kevin forehead...an retreating knee, knee to chin technique...


108 knee strikes. Theres a knee dummy and kneeling pole form along with fighting on your knees if you get cut in the knife form.
Oh and chi-knee, extensively done in private lessons with, ykw...

[Grumblegeezer]

Yep, we hit with the knee... it can be very practical, but it's not any kind of special technique. Just think about the old saying, "every kick is a step and every step is a kick". At the right range, the same is true of the knee. Move like a WC man and you will step, kick and knee your opponent without even thinking about it.

[GlennR]

Yep, we hit with the knee... it can be very practical, but it's not any kind of special technique.


I think that line sums up the WC approach to knees pretty well.
From what ive seen most WC folks will use a knee when opportunity arises (such as a lot of demo clips that finish with a killer knee once the opponent has been overcome), but im yet to see what id call a systematic approach to knees in comparison to say MT

Theres a BIG difference to a knee and a proper structured knee strike

[Grumblegeezer]

I think that line sums up the WC approach to knees pretty well.
From what ive seen most WC folks will use a knee when opportunity arises (such as a lot of demo clips that finish with a killer knee once the opponent has been overcome), but im yet to see what id call a systematic approach to knees in comparison to say MT

Theres a BIG difference to a knee and a proper structured knee strike

If by "proper structured knee strike" you mean the kind of specific and very committed knee training you see in Muay Thai, I have to agree. First, WC avoids that kind of total commitment to strikes ...we don't want to compromise our structure and give our opponent something to use against us.

Secondly, the simple, straightforward way we use our knees is part and parcel of the way we step and move. It integrates seamlessly with the stance, steps, and kicks so whether you just step in, kick, or knee is simply a matter of the openings your opponent gives you ...it is all an expression of the same forward intent. I often disagree with Kevin on particulars, but the line in his signature really says it all: It is your opponent who will teach you how to hit him.

[mjw]

There is that WSL story where he kneed somebody in the head, closest simplest weapon at the time.....

[trubblman]

Does Wing Chun have knee Strikes?

I mean of course you have raising knee to maintain the centerline when a opponent attacks or kicks. You lift the knee up to cover your vital areas. But can Lifting knee be also utilize as an attack?

In my WC every attack is a defense and every defense is an attack...

Knee to the thigh or knee to the (side) of knee - they hurt like hell. IMO I would say yes because you can use the knees to fight with. Knee to the head or to the ribs I would say no unless the person was falling or on the ground and then you catch the opponent with a knee.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is that WSL story where he kneed somebody in the head, closest simplest weapon at the time.....

And he was criticized by some WC peeps because "WC has no knees" or some silliness like that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It can be summed up this way:
Do forms represent every technique/the core techniques in a style?

If no forms from a system have a particular technique, does that mean that technique is NOT part of the system?

In traditional Karate there were no round kicks ( mawashi geri / roundhouse kicks) and you will NOT find one in any of the original forms (katas) of any Okinawan system.
Yet they added the kick later one because it was a very good technique.
They didn't add it to any of the forms however.
Yet ALL styles of Karate now have the roundhouse kick as part of their basic curriculum.
But there is no arguing that it was added later on.

[Vajramusti]

The thread imo illustrates a common confusion...of folks assuming that ther wing chun represents all wing chun.

More accurate to say-- my wing chun has this or my wing chun does not have this and give possible reasons for the presence or absence of x, y or z..

In the wing chun that i do training the knees is very important and knees can be used for various purposes including strikes- the mechanics are different from muay thai.

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

The thread imo illustrates a common confusion...of folks assuming that ther wing chun represents all wing chun.

More accurate to say-- my wing chun has this or my wing chun does not have this and give possible reasons for the presence or absence of x, y or z..

In the wing chun that i do training the knees is very important and knees can be used for various purposes including strikes- the mechanics are different from muay thai.

joy chaudhuri

Can you give me an application of how you'd use a knee Joy?

[GlennR]

If by "proper structured knee strike" you mean the kind of specific and very committed knee training you see in Muay Thai, I have to agree. First, WC avoids that kind of total commitment to strikes ...we don't want to compromise our structure and give our opponent something to use against us.

Not all knee strikes in MT are very committed, as you put it, and as they constqantly train the knee to strike they dont really compromise their structure as much as youd think


Secondly, the simple, straightforward way we use our knees is part and parcel of the way we step and move. It integrates seamlessly with the stance, steps, and kicks so whether you just step in, kick, or knee is simply a matter of the openings your opponent gives you ...it is all an expression of the same forward intent. I often disagree with Kevin on particulars, but the line in his signature really says it all: [I]It is your opponent who will teach you how to hit him.

Thats easy to say, another thing to do. Are you just going to pull a knee out of the hat as youre marching into him??
Personally, i think everyone sells short the proper technique and associated practice that is required for effective use of the knees.
Its like saying im a wrestler but as im going forward ill pull out a perfect WC straight punch, even though i dont practice it.

See my point?

[Vajramusti]

Can you give me an application of how you'd use a knee Joy?
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Glenn-Good faith sharing answers to good faith questions. I assume you are referring to an application or applications. Application requires development first.Development comes from doing the forms well and doing the relevant drills well and purposefully.

1.For development the forms that I do- empty hand, dummy, and weapons all have motions for knee development. In the dummy alone- there are movements where a lifting knee or footwork knees are involved. A knee can go up. dip down, go right or go left. Power comes from the main axis and the motion however slight of the standing leg. Wing chun knee work is very very close quarters work.

2. On applications- applications depend on the structural inter-relationships of you and your opponent(s). In certain situations if you have not completely moved in you can jam someone's kick BEFORE it picks up full power. If you have some control over the opponent's structure via the head, neck, shoulder, elbow or hand level, you can knee- gut, groin,or head- if he is bending down. You can knee someone's thigh from 4 directions. If you are close but to the side of the opponent and you have both hands at work you can knee a kidney. Many other applications are possible in different situations when practice has been regular.. Proper distance and balance are important keys- not memorized techniques and time wasted on decision making.Hands and legs work together.

joy chaudhuri

[Lee Chiang Po]

I was taught that a knee kick was just a short legged kick. Every point of your body that can be used defensively or offensively is a weapon. I always liked to kick because it was many times more powerful than the hand. I can kick in really tight situations, but there is a limit, and when that happens you shorten the kicking weapon by using the knee. If you can get any part of the upper body close enough you can kick it or slam it with a knee. The knee is like an elbow. It is not as proficient as a fist or foot, but it can be used with good effect if it is what you have. You can hold on to someone and still pound him in the head with an elbow. The knee or elbow is simply not a primary weapon and any techniques that apply it like a primary weapon is a waste. It is a secondary weapon that is applied when nothing else is workable or if an opportunity actually presents itself.

[EternalSpring]

most definitely

[mjw]

And he was criticized by some WC peeps because "WC has no knees" or some silliness like that.

Yes thats what it said in his book by david peterson the combat philosophy of WSL I think it's called. But his take on it (WSL) made the most sense.

[GlennR]

Glenn-Good faith sharing answers to good faith questions. I assume you are referring to an application or applications. Application requires development first.Development comes from doing the forms well and doing the relevant drills well and purposefully.

Thanks for that Joy. But id ask, where is the knees in the form and what drills do you folks do


1.For development the forms that I do- empty hand, dummy, and weapons all have motions for knee development. In the dummy alone- there are movements where a lifting knee or footwork knees are involved. A knee can go up. dip down, go right or go left. Power comes from the main axis and the motion however slight of the standing leg. Wing chun knee work is very very close quarters work.


Could you explain foot work knees to me?


2. On applications- applications depend on the structural inter-relationships of you and your opponent(s). In certain situations if you have not completely moved in you can jam someone's kick BEFORE it picks up full power. If you have some control over the opponent's structure via the head, neck, shoulder, elbow or hand level, you can knee- gut, groin,or head- if he is bending down. You can knee someone's thigh from 4 directions. If you are close but to the side of the opponent and you have both hands at work you can knee a kidney. Many other applications are possible in different situations when practice has been regular.. Proper distance and balance are important keys- not memorized techniques and time wasted on decision making.Hands and legs work together.


So from that id assume youre preferably looking for some kind of control before the knee is applied?

[WC1277]

".....where is the knees in the form and what drills do you folks do"

-----knee development in Fong Sifu's 108 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwHcGImEDnY ------

----- knees in chi sau, watch the whole thing, they're in there somewhere - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2chOzs-2Xg -----

"Could you explain foot work knees to me?"

------ easier to show -----



"So from that id assume youre preferably looking for some kind of control before the knee is applied?"

----- Yes -----

[EternalSpring]

Thanks for that Joy. But id ask, where is the knees in the form and what drills do you folks do



Could you explain foot work knees to me?



So from that id assume youre preferably looking for some kind of control before the knee is applied?

I know you weren't asking me, but just to give my own experience/insight on these questions. For the record, this is just the way I was taught and may not be anything like what Vajramusti was talking about and perhaps no one will agree with it lol.

The first knee I learned that was in a form is in the last section of Chum Kiu. Some may have different views, but I was taught that the "side kick/vaan chan gerk" at the end of the form was really two moves that flow together. It's a knee striking up that flows smoothing into a strong "side kick" In basic application, it's a similar energy to checking/blocking a kick and immediately following with your own kick.

knees footwork to me is just a more involved usage of the huen ma and stepping. At first, the footwork requires closing in, but later on, if one closes in enough, the steps can apply pressure through the knees. So if our distance is close enough that your knee is close to the side of my knee, you can somewhat "pop out/hit" with knee to strike the side of my knee.

[Vajramusti]

Thanks for that Joy. But id ask, where is the knees in the form and what drills do you folks do
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Glenn- check out Brian Tufts mok yang jong form om You tube. I could not open the link provided by wc1277. My computer skills are not very good. But you can watch it on Youtube by googling Brian Tufts.Early on, one can observe with care - the tan/Pak with the hands and a raised knee against the middle arm from the side of the dummy.Then in a section towards the end there is knee work on the middle arm of the dummy.


Could you explain foot work knees to me?
Glenn- there is elaborate footwork in our line and the knees work together and support each other/. And single leg standing work strengthens both knees for wing chun motions.And the knees control attack and defense lines of the bottom part of the structure.
Cooperating knees allow a well structured wc body to cut through resistance with good footwork..



So from that id assume youre preferably looking for some kind of control before the knee is applied?

(Yes unless you are bullying a hopeless drunk. )joy

(Some form of hand or body control is preferable for knee work.But you never say never.
What I am saying is not just theory.It works to the satisfaction of people who have done it.

Just discussing and NOT debating.)

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

".....where is the knees in the form and what drills do you folks do"

-----knee development in Fong Sifu's 108 - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iwHcGImEDnY ------

----- knees in chi sau, watch the whole thing, they're in there somewhere - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h2chOzs-2Xg -----

"Could you explain foot work knees to me?"

------ easier to show -----



"So from that id assume youre preferably looking for some kind of control before the knee is applied?"

----- Yes -----

Great, appreciate the clips but i cant open them????

Can you copy the specific link to each clip??

[WC1277]

Great, appreciate the clips but i cant open them????

Can you copy the specific link to each clip??

Try copying and pasting them, then take away the "m." for mobile. I posted them from my phone so that might be why

[WC1277]

Never mind, fixed the links....

[lance]

Does Wing Chun have knee Strikes?

I mean of course you have raising knee to maintain the centerline when a opponent attacks or kicks. You lift the knee up to cover your vital areas. But can Lifting knee be also utilize as an attack?

In my WC every attack is a defense and every defense is an attack...

In the second set chum Kiu and 3rd set Bil Jee anytime you see the sifu picking up his knee and kicking , it represents a knee strike and kicking only when you need to kick . Same thing with bil jee too . Or a stomp kick to the knee area .

I ' m going off topic like gung gee fook fu one of the set in Hung ga regardless of lineages , you see the sifu or student picking up his knee and kicking . Anything time you see the practitioner picking up his knee and kicking it represents a knee strike or stomp kick to the knee area .

[lance]

Does Wing Chun have knee Strikes?

I mean of course you have raising knee to maintain the centerline when a opponent attacks or kicks. You lift the knee up to cover your vital areas. But can Lifting knee be also utilize as an attack?

In my WC every attack is a defense and every defense is an attack...

Another thing in WC , if the WC practitioner were to catch the kicking leg of the opponent , the WC practitioner can smash the opponents leg over his own knee ,
in the bil jee set there is a technique where the WC grab hold of the opponents ' arm or leg and redirects in a way that the WC can do the smashing against the knee . This type of move can be seen in gung gee fook fu too .

[k gledhill]

I am "your master"... what we do is the right way... We dont use the knees and we dont use this and that...
Do only this and that... What others think and do is wrong... :p

Hi Gled, no offence..., but I think that your mentality is in a way, as my joke above.
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My opinion is that in different situations we use different parts of our body.
So practice and use all the body parts as a weapon...
When there is moment for the knee, we use it instinctively... So simple... ;)


Jox, :)



The joke is people have to ask if its okay ;) goes over heads sometimes....
technically there are no knees. Where and when you do it ?

VT is not my invention.

I have had many real fights, some where I could only knee at the time, so I have ...I have knocked out with elbows in fights ...on reflection it was not the best choice but its all a gamble.

A knee is not in the distances we try to maintain. Like BG It would be from a bad position. Raising your leg also offers it to be grabbed if applied incorrectly.

I teach escapes from Muay Thai neckgrabs to avoid being knee'd ; ) so its not just knees but avoiding them too...I know several , how about you ?

[GlennR]

Never mind, fixed the links....

Ok, help me out with a time on one of the clips

[GlennR]

I teach escapes from Muay Thai neckgrabs to avoid being knee'd ; ) so its not just knees but avoiding them too...I know several , how about you ?


Cool, tell us one Kev

[GlennR]

(Yes unless you are bullying a hopeless drunk. )joy

(Some form of hand or body control is preferable for knee work.But you never say never.
What I am saying is not just theory.It works to the satisfaction of people who have done it.

Just discussing and NOT debating.)

joy chaudhuri

All good Joy.... love a discussion ;)

I guess my point is that most WC will use opportunistic knee strikes... like any fighting style would when the opportunty is presented

BUT, i just dont see any knee strikes worth mentioning in WC, though i havent seen everything

[k gledhill]

Cool, tell us one Kev

I am not discounting normal ideas, lan sao's,gum sa's, etc.. to avoid being kneed in clinch, but it leaves you open to elbow strikes.... Lan sao better to adapt and create takedown barriers and push offs like po-pai...Chuck Liddel used similar to good effect...
Use hip positions like YGKYM to stay close to his hips, palm the guys face sideways with right hand so he is looking away from you important , stab your other arm inbetween his holding your neck and create a ' lan bar ' lifting one of his arms, one arm higher ,using his other , like a wedge using his arms as the pivoting points......first push~hit/hold his face sideways.... I have seen Sanda fighters use variations. Just adapting lan sao arm angle....
Bil Gee ideas for recovery.

[wingchunIan]

WC knee strikes are in CK, its just that we teach them as kicks / bringing the feet together etc. Having trained MT for years I'd say that the biggest difference to WC regarding knees is the amount that they are practised and the target areas. Knee training in MT focuses on two main things, 1) penetrating into the target 2) putting the hips into the strike. In WC we always seek the jic seen with a strike whether its knees, punches, kicks or elbows and the basic posture learned through YGKYM should mean that your hips are tucked under and therefore lined up into the strike. So whilst there are obvious differences in technique (notably the rear foot position and things like side knees) I don't see that the two appraoches are that far apart. I get my students to practise knee strikes on pads and bags etc as part of their kicking training but I develop their power by kicking repetition as we always teach to kick by lifting the leg at the knee.

[YouKnowWho]

If a system doesn't have something before, it doesn't mean that it won't have it starting from the current generation.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Fighting has taught me to use knee strikes.

I'm a Wing Chun man.

Who cares whether the system has knee strikes. The starting premise for any investigation is whether you are fighters, or not. If not, its just idle chatter, no?

Suki

[GlennR]

I am not discounting normal ideas, lan sao's,gum sa's, etc.. to avoid being kneed in clinch, but it leaves you open to elbow strikes.... Lan sao better to adapt and create takedown barriers and push offs like po-pai...Chuck Liddel used similar to good effect...
Use hip positions like YGKYM to stay close to his hips, palm the guys face sideways with right hand so he is looking away from you important , stab your other arm inbetween his holding your neck and create a ' lan bar ' lifting one of his arms, one arm higher ,using his other , like a wedge using his arms as the pivoting points......first push~hit/hold his face sideways.... I have seen Sanda fighters use variations. Just adapting lan sao arm angle....
Bil Gee ideas for recovery.

Thanks for that Kev

[GlennR]

Fighting has taught me to use knee strikes.

I'm a Wing Chun man.

Who cares whether the system has knee strikes. The starting premise for any investigation is whether you are fighters, or not. If not, its just idle chatter, no?

Suki


Ok, im a fighter..... your point is?

[GlennR]

WC knee strikes are in CK, its just that we teach them as kicks / bringing the feet together etc. Having trained MT for years I'd say that the biggest difference to WC regarding knees is the amount that they are practised and the target areas. Knee training in MT focuses on two main things, 1) penetrating into the target 2) putting the hips into the strike. In WC we always seek the jic seen with a strike whether its knees, punches, kicks or elbows and the basic posture learned through YGKYM should mean that your hips are tucked under and therefore lined up into the strike. So whilst there are obvious differences in technique (notably the rear foot position and things like side knees) I don't see that the two appraoches are that far apart. I get my students to practise knee strikes on pads and bags etc as part of their kicking training but I develop their power by kicking repetition as we always teach to kick by lifting the leg at the knee.

Thanks Ian.

How do you train on pads? Traditional Thai way?

[Grumblegeezer]

...I develop their power by kicking repetition as we always teach to kick by lifting the leg at the knee.

I do the same. But what you said really gets to the core of it. If, on the other hand, you do not teach kicking by lifting the leg at the knee ...as some groups don't, then I can see how they might view this differently. It only becomes annoying when they argue from the position that their Wing Chun is the only Wing Chun. Whatever.

[wingchunIan]

Thanks Ian.

How do you train on pads? Traditional Thai way?

Yeah pretty much, there's only so many ways you can hold the pads. I do also hold the pads against the thigh as you would for a low round kick in MT to allow for knees to the thigh to be trained. I also tend to get the students to work their way into range using footwork and sometimes hands as opposed to always doing repetition from within range. Biggest limitation is people being able to hold pads properly. I'd say that's one area where MT and boxing have a distinct advantage. IMO holding pads is a skill in itself and one that not everyone who holds a set of pads posseses.

[GlennR]

Yeah pretty much, there's only so many ways you can hold the pads. I do also hold the pads against the thigh as you would for a low round kick in MT to allow for knees to the thigh to be trained. I also tend to get the students to work their way into range using footwork and sometimes hands as opposed to always doing repetition from within range. Biggest limitation is people being able to hold pads properly. I'd say that's one area where MT and boxing have a distinct advantage. IMO holding pads is a skill in itself and one that not everyone who holds a set of pads posseses.

Cool, sounds like a good approach

And you are bang on regarding holding pads.... theres not many people (boxers and MT as well) that hold pads really well.
The popular guys at the gym are the guys that hold pads well for the obvious reasons

While we are at it, what type of pads do you use?

[wingchunIan]

Cool, sounds like a good approach

And you are bang on regarding holding pads.... theres not many people (boxers and MT as well) that hold pads really well.
The popular guys at the gym are the guys that hold pads well for the obvious reasons

While we are at it, what type of pads do you use?

For knees its always either thai pads or the belly shield. For hands, elbows etc I use either thai pads or focus mitts with the belly shield making the odd appearance. for kicks its the thai pads and belly shield although I am considering buying one of those big shield things that you hold in front of you that they use in karate and TKD (and some rugby training).

[LoneTiger108]

IMO holding pads is a skill in itself and one that not everyone who holds a set of pads posseses.

Totally agree. Something I rarely see in Wing Chun schools, unless the Sifu has had previous experience with Boxing etc. Strange though, as Wing Chun is considered a boxing style as such, why many Sifus I have seen even struggle to hold the pads which only hinders the students spped and progression imho.

We were trained to hold specific postures etc with pads and watch the attack carefully, adjusting for various combos. Wing Chun Fist combos are very specialized too and getting used to seeing fists flying very close to your face is a training in itself too! ;)

To be hit to the body is the start of any so-called iron shirt training too and should not be overlooked imho.

As for knee strikes in Wing Chun? I actually can't believe this thread is still going... for me, of course we strike with the knees! Just be ready to be hit back in such short range, but this is what we do isn't it??

[Yoshiyahu]

very good post...the thread is still going because each sifu teaches things differently. Some people take out certain things like iron body, iron palm and iron finger training and substitute it for something else.



Totally agree. Something I rarely see in Wing Chun schools, unless the Sifu has had previous experience with Boxing etc. Strange though, as Wing Chun is considered a boxing style as such, why many Sifus I have seen even struggle to hold the pads which only hinders the students spped and progression imho.

We were trained to hold specific postures etc with pads and watch the attack carefully, adjusting for various combos. Wing Chun Fist combos are very specialized too and getting used to seeing fists flying very close to your face is a training in itself too! ;)

To be hit to the body is the start of any so-called iron shirt training too and should not be overlooked imho.

As for knee strikes in Wing Chun? I actually can't believe this thread is still going... for me, of course we strike with the knees! Just be ready to be hit back in such short range, but this is what we do isn't it??