Do you attack first or do you let them?

[WC1277]

Quick question. Regardless of local law, are you taught to attack first in a confrontation or are you taught to intercept the attack on you?

While not speaking for anyone but myself here, I, myself was trained to almost always attack first. One of the goals obtained from good chi sau is the ability to read("feel") motion and distance from an assailant even without contact. I believe, and through testing believe, that by the mere fact that WC is heavily angle based and connected to rotation of the body, that reading an attacking movement comes naturally after many years of good chi sau. What do you think?

[mjw]

hit first, hit fast, hit hard, hit frequently and hit last.....

If there is an opening take it of make it so it depends if I attack first on the situation.....

[EternalSpring]

I usually attack first. Dont know if this is the best way, but it's what works best for me whether it be Ving Tsun, boxing, or cross training.

I wouldn't say that it's an instinct I've refined, but rather I just noticed that if I dont attack first, I get caught up defending an attack and eventually become open to a hit. Then i get hit, and that usually ruins my rhythm and mentality (yea i know that's not a good thing, but im still a noob and working on it lol).

[nasmedicine]

Quick question. Regardless of local law, are you taught to attack first in a confrontation or are you taught to intercept the attack on you?

While not speaking for anyone but myself here, I, myself was trained to almost always attack first. One of the goals obtained from good chi sau is the ability to read("feel") motion and distance from an assailant even without contact. I believe, and through testing believe, that by the mere fact that WC is heavily angle based and connected to rotation of the body, that reading an attacking movement comes naturally after many years of good chi sau. What do you think?

Depends on the situation. I prefer to counter, however, for example, if your sparring partner doesn't want to make a move then I am left with no choice.

[m1k3]

Depends on the situation. I prefer to counter, however, for example, if your sparring partner doesn't want to make a move then I am left with no choice.

I think it depends on your personality. By nature I am a counter puncher. Even in grappling I like the other guy to move first. In sports I always preferred playing defense.

[Lee Chiang Po]

If you have the element of surprise, fine. But you have to be serious and follow through with a complete beat down. Otherwise, you should always wait until the other person makes a move on you. If he is postured to fight you are attacking a fortified position, which can end in your getting tagged. His weapons are ****ed and ready. You do not always have to wait him out. You can fake him into making the first real commitment. Once he does that his weapons are then temperarily out of position for defending, and you can then trap or whatever you choose to do in order to neutralize his defenses. You always need to neutralize his weaponry before you actually take your shots. Of course it does not always work like you plan, so you have to be able to retreat or move back and re-enter. Make him give you an opening so that you don't have to expose yourself in a frontal attack against readied weapons. Now, you don't just jump around and dance either. If you have to regroup, do it instantly and come right back in with another fake to draw him into exposing himself, and if that don't work, immediately come under his defense with some very hard, rapid kicks to his knees and thighs, then come right back up and try again. Relentless attack, but but drawing him out first each time.
I have never been real big on this chi sao thing. Nothing more than a drill to me, and since every real fight you get into will likely not be with a Wing Chun man, your chi sao will not serve you.

[Vajramusti]

I have never been real big on this chi sao thing. Nothing more than a drill to me, and since every real fight you get into will likely not be with a Wing Chun man, your chi sao will not serve you.
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Whatever floats your boat.Chi sao is not fighting but it helps develop all the key attributes of wing chun,, helps with sensing things coming your way irrespective of the other person's style.
Of course experience with different kinds of opponents help.

joy chaudhuri

[lance]

Quick question. Regardless of local law, are you taught to attack first in a confrontation or are you taught to intercept the attack on you?

While not speaking for anyone but myself here, I, myself was trained to almost always attack first. One of the goals obtained from good chi sau is the ability to read("feel") motion and distance from an assailant even without contact. I believe, and through testing believe, that by the mere fact that WC is heavily angle based and connected to rotation of the body, that reading an attacking movement comes naturally after many years of good chi sau. What do you think?

I would let the person attack first , then that way I could claim self defense . If
I ' m outside of the kwoon .

Since chi sao is basically energy drills ! yeah ! I would attack whenever possible for me .

[k gledhill]

simultaneously attack them as they attack ..timing is everything :D

[Vajramusti]

simultaneously attack them as they attack ..timing is everything :D
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A broken clock can tell time twice a day.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

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A broken clock can tell time twice a day.

joy chaudhuri

A frog in a well only thinks the circle above him is all that exists...

[JPinAZ]

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Whatever floats your boat.Chi sao is not fighting but it helps develop all the key attributes of wing chun,, helps with sensing things coming your way irrespective of the other person's style.
Of course experience with different kinds of opponents help.

joy chaudhuri

No, it doesn't help develop ALL the key attributes of WCK. One of the biggest key WCK 'attributes' Taan/Bong/Fook rolling chi sau doesn't focus on is how to engage (meaning non-contact-to-contact). Almost every fight I've been in started with a punch, and in some cases a push. But none of them ever started squared up with both hands connected like typically chi sau game..

Regarding the OP, I would let the situation dictate. If it's one-on-one and they enter my space, they should get hit. Not because I chose to, but because I simply have to - they are forcing my hand ;)
There are times one might have to engage first (multiple attackers, they block the exit path, etc), but then engaging and 'attacking' are 2 separate things. In most cases though, if they haven't thrown a shot or entered my space, why give up my position to go chase them down?

From a legal standpoint, having the philosophy of always thinking "I attack first" can tend to make you appear as the aggressor to most third parties.

[k gledhill]

The 'Intercepting fist' is VT thinking, 'cutting the way' ....

[Lucas]

like lee said it does depend on whats going on. i prefer to attack first if their guard is down. If I feel threatened, or have been threatened, I take it VERY seriously. If you verbally threaten me you better be ready to fight because I will not hesitate (depending on the situation of course). If they are ready to fight, I would draw them into attack with false opportunity or feint.

[Vajramusti]

A frog in a well only thinks the circle above him is all that exists...
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wunnerful wunnerful-you know how to think-like a frog...

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1164155]No, it doesn't help develop ALL the key attributes of WCK. One of the biggest key WCK 'attributes' Taan/Bong/Fook rolling chi sau doesn't focus on is how to engage (meaning non-contact-to-contact). Almost every fight I've been in started with a punch, and in some cases a push. But none of them ever started squared up with both hands connected like typically chi sau game..

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Our chi sao is likely to be different on that score. Chi sao can speak to engagement and disengagement.

joy chaudhuri

[Lee Chiang Po]

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Whatever floats your boat.Chi sao is not fighting but it helps develop all the key attributes of wing chun,, helps with sensing things coming your way irrespective of the other person's style.
Of course experience with different kinds of opponents help.

joy chaudhuri

I trained with chi sao for the first few years, but eventually, I got to where if I managed to make good contact with someone I could keep them off balance and trying to recover because I could feel what he was trying to do, but chi sao like most do today is merely a game at best and I never got caught up in it. If you have ever tried to use that with a person that comes in windmilling you know that it ends there. Straight up, I have probably been involved in upward of 200 altercations. Some real serious events, others not so much. In no case did I ever run up on a person that was WC trained, or even knew what it was. Half A$$ed karate, judo, boxing, wrestling, and just plain old windmilling. I have met people that had absolutely no training in any martial art except that they had practiced kicking and punching in their own back yard gym. For the most part, any grown man can hurt you seriously.
If you can manage to fend off an attacker and never even get a lick in on him, you have successfully defended yourself. This is paramount. It is your first order. The whole idea here in my opinion is to render him harmless, even for a second, while you strike or kick him. And the only way to do this is to make him use his weapons so that they are temperarily unavailable for defense.

[k gledhill]

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wunnerful wunnerful-you know how to think-like a frog...

Actually the story is about an ignorant frog living blissfully unaware of any other ideas than his own...in a deep well of isolation.

back to you...;)

[Jansingsang]

"Receive what comes" (Wong Shun Leung)
VT the way of the intercepting fist...

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1164247]I . If you have ever tried to use that with a person that comes in windmilling you know that it ends there.
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you mist not have done good Ip Man stlye wing chun chi sao - since you are using the term" windmilling". Regarding all your fights- no comment . Several prople on this list also apparently tell stories about their fights.
joy chaudhuri

[Sihing73]

I seem to recall Yip Man being quoted as saying something like:
"Your enemy tells you how to defeat them"
This would leave me to believe the counter is the WC/VT way as your response would be dependent on what the opponent gives to you.
Then again, if the opportunity presents itself to attack first and end the confrontation then that would be the correct method for that time, imho.

Given the legal implications I almost always prefer to be in a situation wherein I had to counter as this makes any claim of self defense more believeable. :D

[jesper]

seriously, apart from the noobs that try to bluff you first or play tough to impress girls or whatever. most fight I have seen or been involved with happens in a split second where someone just punch or kick the other guy without first puffing themselves up.

If you sense a guy wants to fight, hit him or leave. No good fighter is getting into a fighting stance and waiting for you to be ready.

[WC1277]

You guys are missing the point on what I said about chi sao. I don't think you use "Chi Sao" to fight with for the last time. My point was "through" good chi sao one can develop the ability to read the movement and intention of someone even without touching, from anyone, not just other WC guys. If you recognize it, it becomes clear that the person is initiating his attacking movement. Being able to read the difference between Passive and Active in an individual is paramount to WC and is what the system is heavily based on. I'm genuinely surprised at the lack of understanding of this very important part of WC on this forum and elsewhere. "They move first, but you move faster" Why? Because through Chi Sao, good chi sao, one develops his own awareness of Passive/Active. If you remain Passive when Active is being initiated, regardless of touch or not, you will be quicker with your timing because it's a half beat to his full beat. If you both are active at the same time or you actively "intercept" an attack, you're basing your timing off of 1-2 beat. The "2" beat will be anyone's ball game, so to speak. By intercepting 'actively within passive', if your attack is blocked or redirected, you'll have the ability to truly intercept on the "2" beat. So it goes something like this, you being in bold, - (1/2)1 - (1/2 2). In layman's terms, what does that mean? It means your body was active while your arms were passive during both half beats. These are the basics with closing the gap. There is much, much more to Passive/Active when contact is made and I've tried to explain that before as well but not many listened back when I did. There is no other exercise I know better than Chi Sao to develop these attributes with regards to fighting. All you need is to understand and develop this concept along with your structure and you can fight truly free. When Ip Man said 'the opponent will show you how to hit him' he was referring to this concept, I guarantee you that, and whether you agree with me or not, all of you, if you're being honest with yourselves, you have to admit that Fong Sifu and some of his students of which I've posted a few videos have some of the best timing around. And without being biased here, I think that ought to say something....

[YouKnowWho]

"Your enemy tells you how to defeat them" ... This would leave me to believe the counter is the WC/VT way...

The general TCMA principle, "If my opponent doesn't move, I won't move. If he moves, I'll move faster than he does." is quite misleading. The true meaning behind it is not that you always have to wait for your opponent to attack you first. It's to read your opponent's body language and detect which part of his body is going to open for you. You then start your attack. The moment that your opponent's body is fully open, the moment that your attack just arrive.

A simple example is when you detect that your opponent is going to raise his arms to guard his head (his arm is still below his belly), your leg start to kick out. When his arm just barely pass his belly, your kick has just arrive under his arm and hit on his belly.

If you see an opening, when you attack, that opening won't be there any more. If you "predict" an opening, when you attack, that open will be there when you arrive. So "Your enemy tells you how to defeat them" still mean that you attack first.

[imperialtaichi]

“敵不動，我不動；敵未動，我先動。”

"If the enemy does not move, I don't move; Before the enemy moves, I move first."

The classic quote seems contradictory; hence some people interpret the second part as "enemy moves a little (微), I move first", which has the same pronunciation as the original.

HOWEVER, I interpret as reading the opponent's intention; If I move first, the opponent can counter, if I wait for the opponent to move first, I could be too slow. However, if I attack AS the opponent intends to move, he is at his weakest because I am one step ahead, yet his mind is already committed. Hence, "If the enemy does not move, I don't move; Before the enemy moves, I move first."

Fight the opponent's intentions, before you fight with his body.

[imperialtaichi]

“敵不動，我不動；敵未動，我先動。”

"If the enemy does not move, I don't move; Before the enemy moves, I move first."

Fight the opponent's intentions, before you fight with his body.

As I am getting older, I am getting physically slower that some of the younger fighters; but if I can read them one step ahead, I am still faster even tho I am slower.

[Vajramusti]

“敵不動，我不動；敵未動，我先動。”

"If the enemy does not move, I don't move; Before the enemy moves, I move first."

The classic quote seems contradictory; hence some people interpret the second part as "enemy moves a little (微), I move first", which has the same pronunciation as the original.

HOWEVER, I interpret as reading the opponent's intention; If I move first, the opponent can counter, if I wait for the opponent to move first, I could be too slow. However, if I attack AS the opponent intends to move, he is at his weakest because I am one step ahead, yet his mind is already committed. Hence, "If the enemy does not move, I don't move; Before the enemy moves, I move first."

Fight the opponent's intentions, before you fight with his body.
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Good point- a form of radar! Many ways to develop that sense.
I know I know- the peanut and popcorn crowd wont be happy.

joy

[LivingArt]

really it depends on the situation im in, and the other person. if theyre aggressive, or seem confident I'll let them attack first and usually counter with a front kick. If theyre playing it defensive ill rush in with a knee/elbow combo. I like using my defensive weapons for offensive purposes. A good hip check, slap, or forearm strike doesn't look like fighting, and its always helpful legally if you dont look like you're fighting.

[YouKnowWho]

You don't have to wait for your opponent to make the 1st move (conservative approach). You can "force" him to make the 1st move (aggressive approach). The end result will be the same. The difference is whether your opponent has the control or you have the control.

[nasmedicine]

The whole idea here in my opinion is to render him harmless, even for a second, while you strike or kick him. And the only way to do this is to make him use his weapons so that they are temperarily unavailable for defense.

This is the exact reason I prefer to counter. While someone is attacking (w/ commitment) they can't be defending. Can't be in two places at the same time.

[GlennR]

You guys are missing the point on what I said about chi sao. I don't think you use "Chi Sao" to fight with for the last time. My point was "through" good chi sao one can develop the ability to read the movement and intention of someone even without touching, from anyone, not just other WC guys.

Like a boxer might for example


If you recognize it, it becomes clear that the person is initiating his attacking movement. Being able to read the difference between Passive and Active in an individual is paramount to WC and is what the system is heavily based on. I'm genuinely surprised at the lack of understanding of this very important part of WC on this forum and elsewhere.

Well it may be a key part to you. Having said that, being able to recognise someone about to belt you probably is a handy self defense attribute.


"They move first, but you move faster" Why? Because through Chi Sao, good chi sao, one develops his own awareness of Passive/Active. If you remain Passive when Active is being initiated, regardless of touch or not, you will be quicker with your timing because it's a half beat to his full beat. If you both are active at the same time or you actively "intercept" an attack, you're basing your timing off of 1-2 beat. The "2" beat will be anyone's ball game, so to speak. By intercepting 'actively within passive', if your attack is blocked or redirected, you'll have the ability to truly intercept on the "2" beat. So it goes something like this, you being in bold, - (1/2)1 - (1/2 2). In layman's terms, what does that mean? It means your body was active while your arms were passive during both half beats. These are the basics with closing the gap.

This, IMO, is a world of assumption


There is much, much more to Passive/Active when contact is made and I've tried to explain that before as well but not many listened back when I did.

Well whip up a clip then


There is no other exercise I know better than Chi Sao to develop these attributes with regards to fighting. All you need is to understand and develop this concept along with your structure and you can fight truly free. When Ip Man said 'the opponent will show you how to hit him' he was referring to this concept, I guarantee you that, and whether you agree with me or not, all of you, if you're being honest with yourselves, you have to admit that Fong Sifu and some of his students of which I've posted a few videos have some of the best timing around. And without being biased here, I think that ought to say something...

Fong does look sharp, but the other clips ive seen look like fairly standard bread and butter chi-sao, im not thinking they are going to help you case

[GlennR]

This is the exact reason I prefer to counter. While someone is attacking (w/ commitment) they can't be defending. Can't be in two places at the same time.

The other argument might be, first punch thrown is the first one with a chance to connect ;)

[Lee Chiang Po]

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1164247]I . If you have ever tried to use that with a person that comes in windmilling you know that it ends there.
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you mist not have done good Ip Man stlye wing chun chi sao - since you are using the term" windmilling". Regarding all your fights- no comment . Several prople on this list also apparently tell stories about their fights.
joy chaudhuri


I had never even heard of Ip Man until I got on this forum. I am refering to fighting, not playing with hand chasing. I have dealt with far more inexperienced fighters than experienced or professional. None of them had the first clue as to what Chi Sao is, and trying to play hands with them will get you knocked around some. The most difficult person to fight is a person that has absolutely no fighting system at all. You can never know what he is about to do, and he usually does it fast and furiously.
As for windmilling, in case you have not experienced it or know what it is, it is when a fellow just comes running in with both arms swinging like a spinning wind mill. It is done by people that do not chi sao. Lots of them do it, by the way.

[k gledhill]

I had never even heard of Ip Man until I got on this forum. I am refering to fighting, not playing with hand chasing. I have dealt with far more inexperienced fighters than experienced or professional. None of them had the first clue as to what Chi Sao is, and trying to play hands with them will get you knocked around some. The most difficult person to fight is a person that has absolutely no fighting system at all. You can never know what he is about to do, and he usually does it fast and furiously.
As for windmilling, in case you have not experienced it or know what it is, it is when a fellow just comes running in with both arms swinging like a spinning wind mill. It is done by people that do not chi sao. Lots of them do it, by the way.

Agree, Adrenalin dumps cause the arms to extend out, same with shooting under stress with weak ~ strong grips. One arm overpowers the other and you miss at 5 meters ...
While working a nightclub , I saw a fight in a foyer between two bouncers, many years ago...one guy was trying to wait to get a punch into the other guy who was just windmilling like a maniac and missing mostly. The windmill ratio worked and he finally clipped the other guy, who turned and walked out the front doors, never to came back. Looked Like Choy Lee Fut....

[Lee Chiang Po]

This is the exact reason I prefer to counter. While someone is attacking (w/ commitment) they can't be defending. Can't be in two places at the same time.



Exactly. And you don't have to wait for him to make his move first. You can draw him out. Most people do not just defend themselves in these cases, but actually counter attack, which then gives you an opening.

[Lee Chiang Po]

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1164380]

Agree, Adrenalin dumps cause the arms to extend out, same with shooting under stress with weak ~ strong grips. One arm overpowers the other and you miss at 5 meters ...
While working a nightclub , I saw a fight in a foyer between two bouncers, many years ago...one guy was trying to wait to get a punch into the other guy who was just windmilling like a maniac and missing mostly. The windmill ratio worked and he finally clipped the other guy, who turned and walked out the front doors, never to came back. Looked Like Choy Lee Fut....

In many cases the wind mill does work. One of the last places I worked was a dance club in Grand Prairie, Texas. I think the reason anyone patronized the place was to fight or watch the fights. They started at the door as soon as it opened and it was on till closing time. The place eventually got closed down because of it and I was not really upset over it. I stayed sore and bruised. Half the people there were bouncers. The contract read that I could not strike or kick a patron. I could not break a bone or cause injury. However, I was expected to defuse an all out fight involving half a dozen people, most larger and stronger then myself. Most fights I could side line by buying a round on the house. It was usually a buddy of the fighter that eventually tried to whip me. I will admit that I used jiujitsu regularly there. It was the only thing I really had to work with. I think that was the place that broke me from taking such jobs.

[k gledhill]

In many cases the wind mill does work. One of the last places I worked was a dance club in Grand Prairie, Texas. I think the reason anyone patronized the place was to fight or watch the fights. They started at the door as soon as it opened and it was on till closing time. The place eventually got closed down because of it and I was not really upset over it. I stayed sore and bruised. Half the people there were bouncers. The contract read that I could not strike or kick a patron. I could not break a bone or cause injury. However, I was expected to defuse an all out fight involving half a dozen people, most larger and stronger then myself. Most fights I could side line by buying a round on the house. It was usually a buddy of the fighter that eventually tried to whip me. I will admit that I used jiujitsu regularly there. It was the only thing I really had to work with. I think that was the place that broke me from taking such jobs.

If the 'punters' knew the contract rules you had to engage them by, then its no surprise they fought as much as you say. The worst they could expect is ? if not a punch or kick ?? :confused:

[Vajramusti]

Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post


I had never even heard of Ip Man until I got on this forum. I am refering to fighting, not playing with hand chasing. I have dealt with far more inexperienced fighters than experienced or professional. None of them had the first clue as to what Chi Sao is, and trying to play hands with them will get you knocked around some. The most difficult person to fight is a person that has absolutely no fighting system at all. You can never know what he is about to do, and he usually does it fast and furiously.
As for windmilling, in case you have not experienced it or know what it is, it is when a fellow just comes running in with both arms swinging like a spinning wind mill. It is done by people that do not chi sao. Lots of them do it, by the way.
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Please quote correctly. That is Lee's post- not mine.

joy chaudhuri

[imperialtaichi]

This is the exact reason I prefer to counter. While someone is attacking (w/ commitment) they can't be defending. Can't be in two places at the same time.

Yes, the keyword here is "w/ commitment".

My first move is usually not for the purpose of knocking out the opponent, but to "shut down" his defense and "seal up" his weapons.

And if the opponent uses similar strategy, the situation can get challenging.

[WC1277]

I had never even heard of Ip Man until I got on this forum. I am refering to fighting, not playing with hand chasing. I have dealt with far more inexperienced fighters than experienced or professional. None of them had the first clue as to what Chi Sao is, and trying to play hands with them will get you knocked around some. The most difficult person to fight is a person that has absolutely no fighting system at all. You can never know what he is about to do, and he usually does it fast and furiously.
As for windmilling, in case you have not experienced it or know what it is, it is when a fellow just comes running in with both arms swinging like a spinning wind mill. It is done by people that do not chi sao. Lots of them do it, by the way.

I don't know what to say to you other than you obviously don't understand what chi sao is and what it's for.

The biggest thing that makes me laugh from all the "fighters" here is that you're severely confused if you think WC is anything more than timing and structure with a few principles about distance. If you're fighting, sparring, or doing anything remotely close that involves WC technique then you missed the point in the first place. The technique is not application. If you're fighting with technique than you'll never be successful. It's not like other martial arts. It sounds backwards but it's true. If you apply a tan sau in application, you'll get hit. If you apply any technique the way you learned it, you're going to get hit. I don't know why this isn't obvious. Fantasy Fu, true fantasy fu, is thinking you need to fight or spar with WC technique to get truly good at it. Real WC gung fu is you need to perfect your timing, angles, structure, footwork, passive/active for developmental purposes and then throw it all away when you fight. Whether Bruce Lee got the quote from his WC experience or not, it is completely true that "the highest art, is no art, the highest form, is no form". Perfecting WC structure isn't being a slave to it. Fighting with the tools you used to perfect that structure is. You might as well use your knife sharpener next time you're in a knife fight. It would be no different.

.....and no, Alan Orr's demos had very little WC structure in them. If you couldn't see that, than I'm sorry. You can skip a rock on water but you can't skip 3 rocks tied together. The guys who know will understand that last sentence....

[nasmedicine]

Yes, the keyword here is "w/ commitment".

My first move is usually not for the purpose of knocking out the opponent, but to "shut down" his defense and "seal up" his weapons.

And if the opponent uses similar strategy, the situation can get challenging.

Yes of course, If in the event I do make the "first" move, it definitely would not be one that was committed (relatively speaking). This is in hopes to evoke some type of desirable action from the opponent. If an opening does present itself at the very last moment, theoretically I should be able to make contact and issue power. Of course in reality anything can happen, however when I train I am trying to increase this theoretical chance via timing, relaxation, etc. IMHO, this is the ultimately goal not only for wing chun but for or any striking art across the board.

[GlennR]

I don't know what to say to you other than you obviously don't understand what chi sao is and what it's for.


I wont speak for him but he does know that just doing chi-sao wont make you a competent fighter


The biggest thing that makes me laugh from all the "fighters" here is that you're severely confused if you think WC is anything more than timing and structure with a few principles about distance. If you're fighting, sparring, or doing anything remotely close that involves WC technique then you missed the point in the first place. The technique is not application. If you're fighting with technique than you'll never be successful. It's not like other martial arts. It sounds backwards but it's true. If you apply a tan sau in application, you'll get hit. If you apply any technique the way you learned it, you're going to get hit. I don't know why this isn't obvious. Fantasy Fu, true fantasy fu, is thinking you need to fight or spar with WC technique to get truly good at it. Real WC gung fu is you need to perfect your timing, angles, structure, footwork, passive/active for developmental purposes and then throw it all away when you fight. Whether Bruce Lee got the quote from his WC experience or not, it is completely true that "the highest art, is no art, the highest form, is no form". Perfecting WC structure isn't being a slave to it. Fighting with the tools you used to perfect that structure is. You might as well use your knife sharpener next time you're in a knife fight. It would be no different.



Cliches, assumptions and so on. Youve never sparred hard have you?


.....and no, Alan Orr's demos had very little WC structure in them. If you couldn't see that, than I'm sorry. You can skip a rock on water but you can't skip 3 rocks tied together. The guys who know will understand that last sentence...


No, the guys that spar/fight with WC DO recognise the structure he applies and how it differs from boxing/MT.... mate you need to get out a bit and see how all your theories hold up in the real world

[imperialtaichi]

.... you're severely confused if you think WC is anything more than timing and structure with a few principles about distance....

I can assure you there is a lot more to it than just that!

[m1k3]

As a practitioner of Llap Goch I always attack first. The primary description of the art and it's principles is:



It is an ANCIENT Welsh ART based on a BRILLIANTLY simple I-D-E-A, which is a SECRET. The best form of DEFENCE is ATTACK (Clausewitz) and the most VITAL element of ATTACK is SURPRISE (Oscar HAMMERstein). Therefore, the BEST way to protect yourself AGAINST any ASSAILANT is to ATTACK him before he attacks YOU... Or BETTER... BEFORE the THOUGHT of doing so has EVEN OCCURRED TO HIM!!! SO YOU MAY BE ABLE TO RENDER YOUR ASSAILANT UNCONSCIOUS BEFORE he is EVEN aware of your very existence!

From http://www.llapgoch.org.uk/

This is a truly simple and dangerous art that blends well with any other including Wing Chun. It is so effective that it is often used by PROFESSIONAL WRESTLERS!

Weapon use is encouraged and any weapon is acceptable. When attacking first from behind I am a big fan of the baseball or cricket bat.

Its based in the UK so maybe some of you folk over the pond could check it out first hand.

[nasmedicine]

I can assure you there is a lot more to it than just that!

One word, "Yi".

[YouKnowWho]

It's not a good idea to let your opponent to attack first. Here is an example. If your opponent jumps in the air, comes down 45 degree, and uses his "flying side kick" to attact your front knee joint, it will put you in a bad situation.

- 1st, his kick that carry his body weight is very hard to stop after his momentum is generated.
- 2nd, your knee joint is not very strong and cannot afford a kick like that. This will put you in defense mode (consider your own safety). That will give your oppponent "a good starting point", the fight may go all the way down hill from there.

Unless you have trained how to counter a "flying side kick", if you don't, it will put you in disadvantage mode that your opponent is more familiar with the situation than you do (he can predict your reaction but you can't). We just don't have time to train all counters against all possible attacks (counter a "flying knee" will be another example).

The question is, "Why do you want to allow that to happen?" It's much easier to prevent a problem from happening than to let it happen and fix it afterward.

Do you prefer to attack your opponent like this? Or do you prefer your opponent to attack you like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded

[hulkout]

Absolutely no question about it. Attack first! If you feel something is about to happen, don't wait and give him a chance to do it. The heart and soul of Wing Chun is stepping in and punching and/or kicking. All the other stuff like Pak Da, Tan Da, Bong Sao, etc. is done if there's something in the way. If you've got a clear shot, take it and flatten him. Make sure you commit and don't stop till you're sure he's finished. If he throws somthing up in the way of your strike or if he tries to counterattack, that's where your chi sao skills come into play. But make no mistake about it. Wing Chun IS stepping in and attacking. Standing there and waiting for your opponent to make the first move is just stupid regardless of style.

[imperialtaichi]

... your opponent is more familiar with the situation than you do (he can predict your reaction but you can't)... It's much easier to prevent a problem from happening than to let it happen and fix it afterward.

Excellent point.

Make your opponent deal with you, instead of you dealing with your opponent.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Absolutely no question about it. Attack first! If you feel something is about to happen, don't wait and give him a chance to do it. The heart and soul of Wing Chun is stepping in and punching and/or kicking. All the other stuff like Pak Da, Tan Da, Bong Sao, etc. is done if there's something in the way. If you've got a clear shot, take it and flatten him. Make sure you commit and don't stop till you're sure he's finished. If he throws somthing up in the way of your strike or if he tries to counterattack, that's where your chi sao skills come into play. But make no mistake about it. Wing Chun IS stepping in and attacking. Standing there and waiting for your opponent to make the first move is just stupid regardless of style.

All of this has already been stated earlier. However, if you simply start swinging you might not get a solid lick in or he just might move and take a glancing blow. Then he just might come back with a deluge of punches. Your best bet is simply to let him attack you and subdue his weapons. You don't have to just stand there if you think he might be going to make a move, but you can act like you are going to attack without really committing. When he defends against what he things is an attack, you respond as he applies his defense and if you then want to play chi sao ok, but I think I would go ahead while I had him under control, even if it is for a fraction of a second, punch him in the head or kick him. What is stupid to me is attacking someone that is perfectly able to hit me back.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

While going through the PA State Police Academy we were trained in boxking. One of my favorite things was to throw a punch which my opponenet would block. I would then rotate the punch into a back fist and almost always be able to hit them and then continue to strike.

Worked pretty good for me. ;) Of course, I am sure most of the other cadets were scrubs by some standars. :D

[jesper]

All of this has already been stated earlier. However, if you simply start swinging you might not get a solid lick in or he just might move and take a glancing blow. Then he just might come back with a deluge of punches. Your best bet is simply to let him attack you and subdue his weapons. You don't have to just stand there if you think he might be going to make a move, but you can act like you are going to attack without really committing. When he defends against what he things is an attack, you respond as he applies his defense and if you then want to play chi sao ok, but I think I would go ahead while I had him under control, even if it is for a fraction of a second, punch him in the head or kick him. What is stupid to me is attacking someone that is perfectly able to hit me back.

ofcourse if he attacks first theres also a pretty big chance you wont be able to prevent the strike.
Again most of the fights I have witnessed or joined ends with the guy doing the preemtive striking as winner. Usually in a very short amount of time also.

[Yoshiyahu]

In Yoshiyahu's Kung Fu...the intent is always to attack first!

You want to attack first for three reason, Bridge the gap, Control the centerline and stick to your opponent.

Bridging the gap means simply getting into chi sau range where we can utilize the basic tools from san shou, chi sau and the forms. We don't want to wait for opponent to strike first. He who strikes first gains control first. By attacking i dont mean you go in blindly with chain punches flying. When we attack it is to do two things simultaneously. One is to control the other is to hit. I want to hit you first with out you being able to hit me back. I want to distrupt your structure in the process. If my opponent has a long gaurd i will use lop da or jut da to intercept. If his guard is short or close to his body and face i will utilize gum da, pak da or lan da or gan da to intercept and nullify any counter attack. By attacking first I start to fight when i want it too. Instead of sitting waiting for him to swing i already know he will try an punch me back. Thats where my san shou drills come in at. As he attacks i defend and attack at the same time. Using the tools and principles I drill over and over again.

Control the center line is principle that to me means many different things. It means to attack his center, disrupt his structure, flank him, up root his balance. All these things are forms of control. in addition to that if his guards are short i attempt to jam them or push them in on him so he can not retract them. If they are extended I attempt to yank or jerk his guards to shock his system an hit him while he is distracted. I can also use skills from chi sau to feel his next movement and nullfiy any lucky shots he may attempt to through. Attack first to gain control of the situtation. If im always waiting on him I am going at his pace or speed or momentum and i find my self waiting on my chance to attack back. Instead of waiting on his defenses to open up or wait for him to slow down. i attack first to open his doors and distract his attention an put him on the defensive. If i attack constantly eventually if he stays on the defensive to long he will get hit.


Stick to your Opponent simply means be relentless, be aggressive, keep the pressure on him. I want to be constanly driving my whole body behind my punch. I want to constantly jam his space. It doesn't mean stick just to his arms. Thats where sensitivity comes in at. If you chase his arms you could be led. Lead to create openings. I want to keep my center line closed while opening his. I stick to him like bee or wasp attacking person. It constantly stays up on you an won't move. Stick to him like a pyhton. The goal of sticking is to constantly attack and hit him until he is no more. I don't just stick to feel him. I stick to hit him. As i defend im always hitting. As i advance im always attacking. As i retreat I also attacking. If your opponent is better or has stronger foundation to me an i cant keep driving up the middle. Then i go to the outside. If he is better at defending the centerline an occupying that space. I attack from an angle. I use counter steps and side steps to flank him while i attack. If you aint attacking you aint sticking.

Mantra: Attack relentlessly, Control your opponent, Stick closely and Flow like water

[Wayfaring]

Because attacking first is ALWAYS the best idea. For example:


That little ole lady mean mugging me while crossing the street, you never know what she might be packing. Take her down before she can get her gun out of her purse
The 3rd graders dressed up in their karate uniforms in the grocery store. Little ninjas should learn to look out for blind side rabbit punches. They'll learn to respect wing chun.
Anyone in a club wearing Tapout. They deserve to be attacked first.
Significant others. Nothing is sexier than adding a little Inspector Closeau Pink Panther action to your home life.


In fact, anyone suggesting not attacking first obviously doesn't do the REAL wing chun.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I wonder has anyone read the Art of War or Book of Five Rings?

Do those texts advocate attacking first or countering?

Or is it dependent on other factors?

To think in absolutes is in itself limiting.

[Vajramusti]

Hello,

I wonder has anyone read the Art of War or Book of Five Rings?

Do those texts advocate attacking first or countering?

Or is it dependent on other factors?

To think in absolutes is in itself limiting.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Deceptive simplicity in Sun Tzu-I think: You start first- I arrive earlier.
"Countering" is a complex word!

joy chaudhuri

[imperialtaichi]

To think in absolutes is in itself limiting.

Yes, in the chaos of a real confrontation, any sh!t can happen.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Yes, in the chaos of a real confrontation, any sh!t can happen.

This is absolutely true. And this is why you should always make your best efforts to control the situation. You can make the first move without actually trying to get in the first punch. If you can always be assured that you can take the guy out with that first move, but you can't.
Example. You feel he is just before tossing a punch or whatever. You act as you are about to back hand him as a surprise attack, he will usually throw up his arm to block that blow. As his arm meets yours, you can then jerk him forward and off his balance and pop him right in the face. That will stun him for a tiny bit and you can then wade into him with both fists hammering. Or you can act like you are going for his face and when he takes a defensive move, you give him a wicked kick, which usually stuns him enough that his attention is down low while you are working on him up high.
If any of this fails, you simply move away from him and try to make entry another way. Just running in and trading punches can go either way.

[Wayfaring]

Hello,

I wonder has anyone read the Art of War or Book of Five Rings?

Do those texts advocate attacking first or countering?

Or is it dependent on other factors?

To think in absolutes is in itself limiting.

I've read both. From what I remember, the Art of War is a discourse on military strategy relating to an army on foot and possibly horseback. The Go Rin No Sho (5 rings) is 5 chapters (earth, water, fire, wind, void) and was very metaphysical from my recollection.

There may be quotes pertaining to attack/counterattack in each I don't remember, but in general the scope of both works doesn't really pertain to unarmed hand to hand combat - one is army movement and strategy and the other is swordfighting and the zen behind it. Any learning that pertains to unarmed combat would be extrapolation and conjecture.

I would (when not being sarcastic) think that it is dependant on other factors. And I would agree with you that thinking in absolutes is limiting.

[YouKnowWho]

I'm sure this had been mentioned before. If you can

- knock down a grappler before he has chance to take you down, or
- take down a striker before he has chance to knock you down,

you will avoid a lot of unnecessary problems.

[m1k3]

Actually I have found it very advantageous to not put myself in positions where I need to attack or defend.

As Issac Asimov says “Violence,” came the retort, “is the last refuge of the incompetent.”

:D

[Sihing73]

I've read both. From what I remember, the Art of War is a discourse on military strategy relating to an army on foot and possibly horseback. The Go Rin No Sho (5 rings) is 5 chapters (earth, water, fire, wind, void) and was very metaphysical from my recollection.

There may be quotes pertaining to attack/counterattack in each I don't remember, but in general the scope of both works doesn't really pertain to unarmed hand to hand combat - one is army movement and strategy and the other is swordfighting and the zen behind it. Any learning that pertains to unarmed combat would be extrapolation and conjecture.

I would (when not being sarcastic) think that it is dependant on other factors. And I would agree with you that thinking in absolutes is limiting.

I suppose it depends on whether one thinks in terms of technique or concepts. Both works have been adapted to business strategy and practices with not a little success. A little far from the battlefield and armed combat.

I guess it all depends on what one is looking for and whether they are willing to see something not apparent. Some people can look at a cloud and see nothing but a fluffy shape. Others can look at the same cloud and draw inspiration for a myriad of different things. Same cloud..............different points of view.

[Lucas]

“When you decide to attack, keep calm and dash in quickly, forestalling the enemy...attack with a feeling of constantly crushing the enemy, from first to last.”

“The important thing in strategy is to suppress the enemy's useful actions but allow his useless actions”

[Wayfaring]

I suppose it depends on whether one thinks in terms of technique or concepts. Both works have been adapted to business strategy and practices with not a little success. A little far from the battlefield and armed combat.

My view of the business applications works based upon both of those books are that they are very gimmicky and weak. They play upon the ego of a businessman to have a self image of some kind of ancient warrior.

"Why yes, Jones, let's file that advertising campaign one day early, thus presenting a surprise flank attack upon their army".

As much as Jones wants to be a ninja, in reality he is still just sending an email with an attachment.



I guess it all depends on what one is looking for and whether they are willing to see something not apparent. Some people can look at a cloud and see nothing but a fluffy shape. Others can look at the same cloud and draw inspiration for a myriad of different things. Same cloud..............different points of view.
And yet still others see the cloud and notice the man with the crack pipe at the base of it exhaling smoke.

[Sihing73]

My view of the business applications works based upon both of those books are that they are very gimmicky and weak. They play upon the ego of a businessman to have a self image of some kind of ancient warrior.

"Why yes, Jones, let's file that advertising campaign one day early, thus presenting a surprise flank attack upon their army".

As much as Jones wants to be a ninja, in reality he is still just sending an email with an attachment.


And yet still others see the cloud and notice the man with the crack pipe at the base of it exhaling smoke.

Interesting response..........did not know I struck a nerve :D

All is good my friend...........everyone has, and is permitted thier own opinion.

[Wayfaring]

Interesting response..........did not know I struck a nerve :D

All is good my friend...........everyone has, and is permitted thier own opinion.

Glad it is interesting. No nerve struck - there is no conflict inherent in my response - just conversing.

I enjoyed both Sun Tzu's Art of War and Musashi's Book of 5 Rings. I have read both works probably half a dozen times over years. The works as well as the authors are very interesting.

I have gone back and forth over years between viewpoints on them. I've read them as literal, and read them with a view to extract abstract concepts to help with fighting strategy in empty hand combat.

My current views fall more in the pragmatist / realism categories. I think first most applicable are the direct lessons - especially Sun Tzu. He is read in the armed forces in military strategy colleges. Secondarily IMO is the value in abstracting principles.

I suppose the attack first vs. counterattack strategy can be considered both pragmatically from a technique perspective as well as an overall strategy perspective.

IMO the "you strike I strike first" WCK type principles embody a couple core tenets of the art - economy of motion and counterattack. Centerline is implied. I do not feel that the overall intent of WCK is attack, but more counterattack. I think that arts like fencing and the boxer's jab are primary attack strategy tools. WCK and fighters like Lyoto Machida are effective counterattackers.

[Yoshiyahu]

“When you decide to attack, keep calm and dash in quickly, forestalling the enemy...attack with a feeling of constantly crushing the enemy, from first to last.”

“The important thing in strategy is to suppress the enemy's useful actions but allow his useless actions”

Lucas pretty good points. All though some of it I think went over some peoples heads...Especially the part about allow his useless actions. lol...

Here are some qoutes i like

“Attack is the best form of defense”

“Nobody ever defended anything successfully, there is only attack and attack and attack some more.”

“Strength lies not in defense but in attack”



The Good thing about WC is you defend while you attack. There fore the safest place to be is in the Lions den. In my opinion sitting there waiting for your opponent to attack will make you sluggish. WC tools are best utilize in midst of action. Being a counter figther is Good. But the best way to counter is from a distance. The best counter fighter are long range fighters in my opinion because they wait for you commit. When you attack with WC your mind shouldnt be to strike and get out of range. But to strike and keep striking and keep striking them until they can't defend any more.


When i hear wait for your opponent to attack first I think of something like Tai Chi which onces to borrow your force. With out force Tai Chi wont be as successful. It needs to receive to utilize your force. WC is not the same in my opinion. We do borrow force. But we do so in the midst of the thick of things. Since we are a short range system our main goal is to get into striking range where are tools are more beneficial. One problem with waiting for your opponent to attack is if he is good long range fighter he will just launch round houses and side kicks at you an move out of range when you try to bridge or connect or strike back. He will continously throw attacks off you which you will be too slow to intercept due to fact your waiting on him.

Force your opponent to defend against your flurry of attacks. Hard knocks and steady blows will eventually gain you entry.

Just some things i stay mindful of

Don't Wait on your opponent to Attack first "- Do not be lax when your opponent is not advancing."

Always Attack First " Make the first move to have control. Attack according to timing."

Rush in where ever there is a no contact - "Charge into the opponent. Execute three moves together."

Bridge the Gap my Striking - "The thrusting and fast attacks are well suited for closing in."

If you wait on your opponent to strike first you will loose - "Persistent attacks will surely gain you entry. Staying on the defensive too long will surely get you into trouble."

You utilize the bridge to controle your opponent - "Create a bridge if the opponent's bridge is not present. Nullify the bridge according to how it is presented. "

Above our things that come to mind when i think of the following qoutes. In addition to that i find just going in attacking charges your energy, mind and spirit. Where as waiting your sitting duck always waiting for your opponent to make a move first!