To all the people who lift weights and train MA

[IronFist]

Ok, assuming you lift and train on the same day, what order do you do it in?

First I would assume that lifting should go first, because you want the most energy to go towards improving your strength.

But then, I was like, no, you probably want the most energy and concentration for perfecting your techniques, so MA training should go first. Plus, if you MA first, your jow has a chance to go to work while you're lifting afterwards before you take a shower and it gets washed off :P

But then, I was like "well, if you tire out one muscle a lot during MA you won't be able to perform lifting at max effort." ie. if you do a million punches and your front deltoid gets tired, you would suck at benching after that, despite that fact that your pecs would be relatively fresh.

Or do you do one in the morning and one in the afternoon?

I've always wondered how to combine to get the best of both worlds.

People who alternate days don't need to respond to this one.

Iron

[Lost_Disciple]

Personally, I don't normally do both on the same day, but when i was working out with Ian (my san da friend) we did.
We'd always lift first.
Part of martial arts is to maintain good technique even when you're tired. You need to be able to hold up in the later rounds. We made real sure we were still doing good technique in whatever we did, and tried not to slop through anything. On top of that, we usually didn't lift that long, and tried to keep the total workout under 20 sets.

This wasn't easy at first though, we'd usually have to take a break before starting on MA training and maybe eat a powerbar or something. Once we got going we'd stretch a lot and warm up slowly. I think eventually we got used to it, because I don't remember taking as many breaks toward the end.

[nospam]

If you train properly, there aint much left to weight train properly. So why bother.

If you have the gumption to do both on the same day, then it won't matter much. Do either one according to how your body reacts. Trial and error..no better teacher out there.

nospam.

[zen_celt]

My advice: Don't lift and spar on the same day but lifting and doing forms are all right. But lift in the morning, then do forms in the afternoon/night to let your body recover. You can also do light forms before you lift to stretch. A decent book to read on the subject is "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Kickboxng".
Peace and good fortune,
Zen_Celt

[IronFist]

"But lift in the morning, then do forms in the afternoon/night to let your body recover. "

Oh man then I gotta take two showers :P

Iron

[Lost_Disciple]

zen_cult - I've got that book. Guy Mezger's kind of becoming a hero of mine. They showed a ton of his fighting clips on MTV when he was talking about why he likes Kid Rock.

nospam - I hate to say this, but in a year in my last kung fu class, going almost everyday and doing my best to train outside of class (when i could actually walk) I didn't make near the gains in strength or endurance that I got from about 6 months of weight training every other day and jogging a few times a week. I was constantly overtrained sticking with the traditional class workout that I was doing before. I'm a big guy and a lot of stuff in class was aimed at skinny guys- I always tried (in vain) to keep up with them. Life became a continual blur of limping, injuries, and leg pain. After the year back at college (6 months of getting fat 6 months of working out) I went back and could participate in kung fu class as well as or better than before. Even the age-old addage about weightlifters not being able to do horse stance didn't apply, because I was able to do it as long or longer without having practised it. There's something to be said for western training methods- though that doesn't mean I'm ready to give up on kung fu & traditional training. I don't mind doing the traditional work out (with supplementation) once I'm living near a school again. For right now though, it's weight training, jogging, and trying to maintain some of the san da techniques I learned in 2 months training with my friend. I may start training horse stance again, not sure. I should probably practise my old forms, but I'm pretty sure I'll be doing a different system when I move so I'm not sure why I should bother. BTW- when I say "traditional work out" I'm talking more than just forms. The term "calisthenics from he!!" would probably be more appropriate.

Sorry for the long post.

[Ford Prefect]

I had a consultation with Charles Poliquin last year, and he told me that as long as you wait 4-5 hours between each, then there shouldn't be a problem.

[TjD]

but when i do both, i do them when i have the time :) i dont lift til failure either so that leaves me more fresh after lifting for kung fu... which is wing chun so your not supposed to be muscling thru anything anyhow - (so this helps me stay relaxed)

usually after a few hours of chi sau i feel like im ready to go run a marathon anyhow, so lifting afterwards works fine for me too

however if i was doing wrestling or something i dont think i could do that:)

peace
trav

if you never get into a fight,
you can never be defeated,
if you can never be defeated,
you are invincible

[Lost_Disciple]

Gotta love this guy
http://t-mag.com/img/photos/61poodlequin.jpg

[uluru]

weight training may be very good for building strength and muscle tone, but weights often reduce flexibility and your speed doesn't benefit from it too much, either (which is essential for a martial artist). a technique which many martial artists (including me) prefer is dynamic strength (or tension) training. it needs no equipment and works by having different muscle groups work against each other. there are lots of good books on this, just go to amazon.com. dynamic strength is perfect for the martial artist!

[UberShaman]

Weight training does not decrease flexibility or speed, if you dont beleive me ask any speed skater, sprinter,gymnast etc. The only time this will happen is if you get so large your muscles get in the way of each other or if you put on the mass in an extremely short period of time ie. (steroids) and even that can be fixed with enough stretching. Isometrics are fine when added to a weight training program but you wont get nearly as strong doing them alone.

[Kempo Guy]

I generally train with weights about three to four times a week, and cardio about three times a week in addition to my MA training. I do the cardio and lifting in the morning before I go to work, and go to MA practice in the evening (usually only for about an hour to hour and a half). I train about five times a week.

As for losing flexibility and speed by lifting, well I can assure you that I am more flexible now and perhaps faster than when I didn't work out with weights.

I think the key is to lift for functional strength not mass. This is generally done without working to failure. I only do three or four different types of lifts right now, which include the deadlift, sidepress, curls and on occasion benchpress. Obviously the curls and the bp are for asthetics, rather than functional strength. :) (I am a huge fan of Pavel Tsatsouline's methods and if you haven't heard of him, you may want to check out a magazine called Muscle Media or the following website: www.dragondoor.com (http://www.dragondoor.com), his books and videos are great)

Every two weeks or so I cycle my routine, so my muscles don't have time to adapt. For instance, for the next two weeks I am only doing push ups, dips and abs, and squats similar to the hindu squats). I am using Pavel's push up program, which is pretty hard core, if you're interested I can post it here or you can check the latest issue of Muscle Media magazine. I also got his Russian Kettlebell challenge video and have been throwing those in as well. WOW, what a great workout. I can pretty much say I'm constantly sore...

Just some thoughts from the cheapseats.

KG

[This message was edited by Kempo Guy on 07-24-01 at 11:26 AM.]

[shaolin_knight]

I train with weights in the early part of the day or late at night. I do my MA training at the opposite end of the day. I don't train to failure so I don't feel sore unless I do my MA training then weights right away. The other way around is fine though. Hey Kempo Man, let's hear that push up program. :)

[Lost_Disciple]

uluru-
I agree with almost everything Kempo Guy says and have achieved the same results. The key is to stay limber in-between sets and before & after the workout. I said in another thread, I've still got the same horse stance I did when I stopped doing it regularly about a year ago, just from weights.

[Kempo Guy]

The program outlined below is fairly self-explanatory. Just drop and do the specified percentage of your last personal best at given time intervals during the day. For instance if you managed 50 push-ups on you test, do 25 on the day that calls for 50% relative intensity. On Mondays, test yourself for one set and do easy sets for the rest of the day. As you see the time intervals are fairly frequent and you may not be able to do them at that frequency, I was told not to sweat it if you miss a few through out the day as long as you try to get in as many as you can. They also recommend that you do no other upper-body work with the exception of pull-ups or chin-ups.
There are two programs, and I'll outline both of them.

The first program goes like this:

"Hit the Deck Program":
Week 1: Relative Intensity: Set Frequency:
Monday 100% (test); 30% (remainder of day) 60 minutes
Tuesday 50% 60 minutes
Wednesday 60% 45 minutes
Thursday 25% 60 minutes
Friday 45% 30 minutes
Saturday 40% 60 minutes
Sunday 20% 90 minutes

Week 2: Relative Intensity: Set Frequency:
Monday 100% (test); 35% (remainder of day) 45 minutes
Tuesday 55% 20 minutes
Wednesday 30% 15 minutes
Thursday 65% 60 minutes
Friday 35% 45 minutes
Saturday 45% 60 minutes
Sunday 25% 120 minutes

Week 3:
Monday 100% (test)


"Drop and Give me 100 Push-Ups Program":
Week 1: Relative Intensity: Set Frequency:
Monday 100% (test); 40% (remainder of day) 60 minutes
Tuesday 50% 30 minutes
Wednesday 70% 45 minutes
Thursday 40% 60 minutes
Friday 80% 60 minutes
Saturday 55% 90 minutes
Sunday 20% 90 minutes

Week 2: Relative Intensity: Set Frequency:
Monday 100% (test); 90% (remainder of day) 120 minutes
Tuesday 45% 60 minutes
Wednesday 20% 10 minutes
Thursday 65% 90 minutes
Friday 75% 60 minutes
Saturday 30% 90 minutes
Sunday 15% 120 minutes

Week 3:
Monday 100% (test)


Well, this is the program in a nutshell. I'm not going to go over the proper way to do push ups with you obviously, you can mix them up with wide width, regular width and narrow width push ups. Let me know if you have any questions in regards to this.

Have fun.

[IronFist]

That program would rule on the days you have class!

Teacher: "What are you doing!"
Student: "I'm doing Pavel's pushup program! What does it look like I'm doing?"

Hehehe.

Thanks for the program dude.

Iron

[Kempo Guy]

Iron Fist, no problem. Happy to help.

BTW, You could do a similar type of program doing pull-ups, dips, hindu-squats etc.
Today is my second day on the push up program and it's killing me. I thought I was fairly strong (my max was at 92 push ups) but having to do 50% of that every hour is starting to get me fatigued. It should be interesting tomorrow when I have to up it to 60% of max and do it every 45 minutes.

I'm gonna try this with pull ups and the squats later on... I definintely would not recommend doing them concurrently.

Later,

KG

[shaolin_knight]

Thanks Kempo Guy! I will definately try those when I am done with my Power to the People power cycle. I'm trying to get my brother to do it too.

[IronFist]

Let's compare this pushup program with the long one I posted. I'm not quite sure how we'd compare the results, but hey, comparing cycles is always fun.

[Kempo Guy]

Shaolin Knight,

How's PTP working for you. I've only done one cycle so far, but got really good gains in overall strength. Next cycle I'll probably do the "Bear".

I just got my KB's in yesterday so I'll be messing around with those as well. Should be fun!


Ironfist,

Where did you post your push up program at?
Are you familiar with Scrapper's workout? I did that one for a while and got pretty strong. Had to stop doing it when I injured my shoulder four months ago.

Good training!
KG

[zen_celt]

Is that push up program every 45 mins? or do 60% in 45 mins? or 60% for 45 mins?
Peace and good fortune,
Zen_Celt

[shaolin_knight]

Kempo Guy, PTP is working great. Nothing but up, up, up. I just started another power cycle with my shiny new weight set. I forgot to ask, do you remember if that push up program builds size, because i like my shape now. Let us know how the bear program works for you, I've always been curious about that.

[Kempo Guy]

ZC,
The pushup program is done like this:
For instance, if you look at the first Monday you would start with one set where you go to the max in the morning. The remainder of the day you would do one set at 30% of your max, every hour.
On Tuesday, you would do one set at 50% of max, every hour all day. On Wednesday, you would do 60% of your max, every 45 minutes all day. And so on...
Hope this explains it.

S_K,
According to Pavel, the push ups may give you some gains in chest size (some people reported that they increased their chest by up to 2"). But, for the most part it gets you a lot stronger, especially if you do them on your knuckles. It'll strengthen your wrists which will in turn make you stronger in BP.
I'll definitely let you know how the Bear goes. I haven't decided for sure when I'll cycle it in.
Out of curiousity, what excercises are you doing in PTP?

KG

[IronFist]

KempoGuy, my pushup program can be found in this forum under the title "Ultimate Pushup Program."

If you still can't find it lemme know.

Iron

[shaolin_knight]

I do deadlift, side press, and wide grip curl with elbows tight against my body in PTP. I will definately do that push up program in August. When you say do them on knuckles you mean horizontal fists and not vertical fists right?

[Kempo Guy]

Iron Fist,

I found the "Ultimate pushup program", I think I'll have to try it out sometime. Looks wicked.

Shaolin_Knight,
The push-ups on your knuckles can be done either with horizontal or vertical fists. Although if you want to improve your benchpress, it may be wiser to do it on a horizontal fist... but what do I know. :)

Have fun with it.

KG

[ElPietro]

Weight training will not decress flexibility. It will slightly increase flexibility because of the range of motions you put your muscles through as well as the slight stretch the antagonist muscle gets through contraction. This is true while training for strength or size. You will not all of a sudden become a Hulk overnight so people who goto the gym and say, "I don't want to get big," most likely don't know what they are doing.

Kempo guy I'd recommend sticking with a routine for a LOT longer than two weeks. Body adaptation happens slowly and you are short-changing yourself right now. I'll try to explain without getting to scientific. When you first start a routine you will get very good strength gains. This is a neurological response of your motor functions getting used to the movement of the exercise. Very little muscle strength is gained right away. When your strength gains decline, it is because your bodies motor skills are now performing the exercise optimally and now only your muscles can help you increase the weight. Many ppl mistake this as a plateau and change their exercises up. Keep going with this exercise untill you really hit a plateau...or even better just take a week of rest then go back to the same routine.

There are a lot of myths that have been in bodybuilding for a long, long time. Some are partly true others are completely false. Changing every two weeks isn't the best option.

Oh and I lift then goto MA. Usually 3-4 hrs later. Alternating days doesn't matter anyway...other than energy-wise. Two days after an intense shoulder workout I usually can't lift my arms from my side after an hour of MA.

[IronFist]

I don't know about Pavel's routine for more than 2 weeks. It's extremely intense and you might overtrain if you stay on it too long.

Iron

[zen_celt]

Thanks Kempo Guy

I heard somewhere that knuckle pushups screw up your hands/wrists or something like that. Anyone had experience with or heard of this? Also, if I shouldn't do the program for more than two weeks, that do I do on the third and fourth weeks? When can I start the program over?
Peace and good fortune,
Zen_celt

[anerlich]

Skill training is a matter of training the nervous system, not the musculature or cardiovascular system.
When fatigued, you are less able to perform movements requiring fine motor control, substituting gross movements for fine ones and thus may develop "skills" with less efficiency. For the same reason, you may be more likely to injure yourself.
I personally find the notion of tiring yourself so that you learn to rely on technique rather than muscle to be fallacious, as the technique you end up practicing may well be inferior. This approach may be useful for a student that has difficulty giving up "muscling it", but once you "get it" such approaches will become counterproductive and unnecessary. OTOH, performing when fatigued is great for developing mental toughness and determination.
Therefore I would do my skill training before my conditioning. There's no reason you couldn't do weights in the am and skill training in the pm assuming you are rested enough.

[dumog93]

Personally i like MA training before i lift.Then again i only work out with the weights 2 times a week deadlifting,squatting and benching.I bench on Tues.,then alternate my squats and deads every Friday.If i happen to catch a MA workout on the same day as heavy lifting i just go light on the MA and work mainly technique and use it as a kind of warm up,but that's just me.I sure wouldn't pound the mits for an hour before deadlifting or benching as it would wear the hell out of my shoulders.Same with a lot of kicking before squatting.I put all the weighted crunches,abs,calves in whenever i feel like doing them(i.e.-when i'm not sore or tired in that area).I also throw in my captains of crush grippers every couple of days using the same rule of thumb.Almost up to the #2's! Those grippers are evil.The guys that do the #3's are like a list of superfreaks from the world's strongest man.I would bet they could probably give me stress fractures if they grabbed my arm.

-Devildog

[Kempo Guy]

El Pietro,
Thanks for the information. You are right, there is a lot of misinformation in regards to lifting weights. I have certainly heard/read what you have said in other places as well. I was somewhat skeptical in terms of changing the routine so frequently but this is what Pavel recommends in order to build strength. So I decided I'd give it a try. All I know is that I have increased the weight of my lifts a lot by following his program! It works for me. :) Just keep in mind that his program is primarily for strength gains not bodybuilding, although he does have a program for this (I haven't tried it though). If you have questions in regards to his program I'd suggest you contact Pavel through the forum at www.dragondoor.com (http://www.dragondoor.com) or buy his book "Power to the People". BTW, he responds personally to most questions.

Zen_celt,
The pushup program should not be done for more than two weeks at a time, as it increases the chance of shoulder injuries (overuse). There's the point where overdoing the program (since the it's pretty hardcore and high-repetition excercise) could start breaking down your muscles. As for the third and fourth week, Pavel suggests you go back to your regular weightlifting routine. You can go back to the pushup program every two weeks if you'd like. Personally I don't think I'll do it for another month, once I'm done with this cycle.

Hope this helps.
KG

[Rolling Elbow]

Essentially, i think one should strive to attain lean mass or a lean muscular physique. Depending on your body type in the first place, you should not be looking for large bulky muscle. Understand how your body grows and what stimulates growth and go with it. Some people get huge on 6 - 8 reps, other people just get lean muscle. Myself, i am rather slim, I train with high reps 15-20 and work out 3 times a week for about an hour. No super set this and that, just one hour the whole body. I doa llot of chin ups which devellop a strong grip and make sure my exercises target all the major muscle groups in the body. The result is a ripped wing chun man look (as i like to call it cause them and the clf guys are always ripped). My muscles have higher endurance, they are strong, and i don't have to worry about the mass turning to fat. Ideally you need a body that can move quickly and has less to "grab onto"in my opinion..i like having quick hands backed by strong forearms and wrists. Look at Bruce Lee's development. Says it all in my opinion.

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[dumog93]

Well,to each his own...but i totally disagree with your theory of "less to grab on to".If you don't hace the power to at least stall a stronger opponent your goal is garbage in my opinion.Most people won't strive for power in their body type for much the same reason they won't spar or grapple.It is too hard for them.It seems like a case of sour grapes to me.I don't spar nearly as much as i should,nor am i the most powerful individual out there,but it seems to me we should strive to develop all pieces of the puzzle rather than sit in our corner and work what comes natural to us and is easier.I can do pull-ups,push-ups,and sit-ups until the cows come home,but i tend to stay on the low end of the reps scale because it is something i am trying to incorporate into my body type.I still do a few pull-ups just to make sure i haven't lost anything and still have a bit of muscular stamina from grappling,boxing,and sparring.If you're saying power isn't important,we can argue that all day,though i doubt you will convince me otherwise.I guess you consider mobility/agility more important than strength.Interesting theory,but i believe it to be flawed.I guess you're banking on your combat situations to be within your weight class,not i.

be prepared,

-Devildog

[Lost_Disciple]

nice post dumog

Personally, I go for power.
I'm a big guy, not the buffest but (in all honesty) not really a fat a$$ either- just thick. One of my goals it to learn how to use my weight. I know I'm going to need to be a lot leaner, a lot quicker, and a lot lighter on my feet later on- and I try to train hard to attain that; but making that the single focus of my training would be foolish. I'm never going to be a wiry, 132 pound 5'11 guy without major starvation. I could try my best to get my frame to move like such a guy, but putting all my eggs in one basket would be silly. It's kind of like a fat kid doing contemporary sport wu shu. If he spent an equal amount of time in tai chi or hung gar or something to develop his power and using his bodyweight, he could forseeably become effective- instead of always being "the fat kid TRYING to do wu shu".

I think power, speed, quickness, strength, balance, and flexibility should all be developed. By power I mean explosive power, by strength I mean power maintained over a period of time (like pushing a car up a long, tall hill).
Relying too heavily on one aspect can make you vulnerable; but at the same time you need to play to your strengths somewhat.

Maybe your training in wing chun encourages you to be wiry and quick; but I do think you could still benefit from some explosive power- not bulk or mass per say, maybe not even "strength", but definitely to pack something behind your punches.

I don't want to get bigger, if anything I'd like to be more cut, but if doing so would mean sacrificing too much power and strength I'm not sure that i'm up for it.
.

[dumog93]

Obviously the previous guy set one of my landmines off with his statement.I really get tired of 130 pound people telling me they don't want to get too big.Of course we all know that is a reoccurring problem with lifting weights and having a small frame...i'm always getting too big too fast...i wish.My problem is more along the lines of losing 5-10 pounds of hard fought muscle if i happen to get the flu or injure myself.There is a place for every bodytype.I was trying to say we should keep an open mind and develop everything to an extent,just not as well put as you did.

-Devildog

[Lost_Disciple]

Thanks, I'm just glad somebody actually read one of my posts. :)

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.