Sin The' admits in court he made it all up.

[MasterKiller]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115628

See what happens when I go on vacation?

[Judge Pen]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115628

See what happens when I go on vacation?

And by all he means 29 forms that comprise SD's lower belt material. Full discussion and legal commentary found in the "Is SD for Real thread." :D

[MasterKiller]

And by all he means 29 forms that comprise SD's lower belt material. Full discussion and legal commentary found in the "Is SD for Real thread." :D

Dude, do you know how many times you guys have said that material is the core of the system? Hilarious.

[Judge Pen]

Dude, do you know how many times you guys have said that material is the core of the system? Hilarious.

Yep it is. He created these forms that taught the fundamentals of his system. He then says he also taught the material he was taught by his teacher. If he was up front about this it wouldn't have been a big deal, but as it was passed off has traditional it calls into question everything that was ever taught.

[Scott R. Brown]

The interesting thing is that some people had to hear it in court in order to believe it while many others could spot if a mile away.

I don't have a problem with him making up forms, but be honest about it.

One of the things about people in general is that they think that just because something is old it is better than a similar thing that is new, but just as with everything else in life, buyer beware!

A form should be judged on its own merits not on its age.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

I'm thinking of someone else who made it all up, too.

[bodhi warrior]

He says he copy writed 29 forms that he created up until around 1990 then he created 40 or 50 more forms after that. I think that might be almost everything up to 5th black, with the exception of the internal material. He says he is teaching traditional shaolin at His seminars but doesn't say he learned these forms from Ie or other sources.

[ginosifu]

Who Gives a Rats Ass?

I do not condone presenting fraudulant / made up material as true and authentic forms from a given system.

However, if you have enough skill and understanding of the theory and principles of your given system, the forms or material you make up your self will in itself be a represenative of the system, will it not?

I made up a small practice drill / form for my childrens curriculum. Am I fruadulently representing my system?

Really... who cares what other people do. Some of you guys argue about the most stupid and irrelavant MA tyopics.

ginosifu

[wenshu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_dental_fricative

You have to appreciate the irony that after all the effort put forth by The to maintain the romantic wuxia illusion of lineage among his followers as soon as his ability to profit from it is in jeopardy he readily admits to fabricating a majority of the material.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

LOL!! Now THAT is funny!

I wonder if that includes the thousand 9 yellow bee's (or whatever) form?

[Neeros]

Is that a serious picture? He looks like he's losing his balance.

Must be the drunken crane technique.

[Eric Olson]

I think we can now confidently say Shaolin-Do is not "for real".

[David Jamieson]

Nothing is real.

I think we made that clear in the "all is mind" concept.

Everything we do, is a personal pursuit. It doesn't necessarily have overarching meaning to the world or the species, it just is.

10,000 years will pass and all we have done today will be no more and will not even be a memory.

5000 years have passed in written human history, how much did we carry forward with us? Mere fragments of what was.

It's important to understand this I think. :)

or, in a nutshell...All is impermanent.

[MasterKiller]

Nothing is real.

I think we made that clear in the "all is mind" concept.

Everything we do, is a personal pursuit. It doesn't necessarily have overarching meaning to the world or the species, it just is.

10,000 years will pass and all we have done today will be no more and will not even be a memory.

5000 years have passed in written human history, how much did we carry forward with us? Mere fragments of what was.

It's important to understand this I think. :)

or, in a nutshell...All is impermanent.

STFU, Hippy. Adults are talking.

[wenshu]

I was just thinking this thread doesn't have enough subjective idealism sophistry.

[David Jamieson]

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/003/617/okayguy.jpg

[goju]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115628

See what happens when I go on vacation?


https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSaGkrqyTpDD2bcAgk1KSzy1Umxfind 8ULxwAFGAcoUeOtw0D0

[Eric Olson]

STFU, Hippy. Adults are talking.

Less of a hippy than a nihilistic navel gazer :D

EO

[David Jamieson]

Less of a hippy than a nihilistic navel gazer :D

EO

Me? You think I'm a nihilist? How the heck would you gather that? :confused:
From the statement "nothing is real"? Because that was contextual to the discussion. Also, it's true in context to this thread.

If I was a nihilist. I wouldn't be here in this discussion at all!

[SPJ]

We walk one step at a time.

We learn how to fight one move or one technique at a time.

Why so hung up on forms or kata?

In 7 star mantis, there will be so many kata. But only a few are well known and practiced by all.

I was so bummed by so many kata from old style of chen tai ji. There are so many kata or same kata practiced with different focuses/frames.

I ended up just learn one well.

I break kata up and practice one posture at a time.

I may string a few together and practice.

but each to his or her own.

All my short forms or any forms "new"? probably not.

We may make up a form anytime by placing a few moves together.

Why the fuss?

:confused:

[Judge Pen]

Why the fuss?

:confused:

Because it isn't what it was represented to be. It is a lie.

The material is solid fundamental material. It teaches the basic of punching, kicking, locking, throwing, stances, weight trasnfer, power generation, evasion, countering, blocking etc. It is very good foundation material for learning martial arts.

But it was passed off as traditional and it is not. That's a big deal.

I will teach my children this material, but I will tell them the truth about its origins.

[taai gihk yahn]

Because it isn't what it was represented to be. It is a lie.

The material is solid fundamental material. It teaches the basic of punching, kicking, locking, throwing, stances, weight trasnfer, power generation, evasion, countering, blocking etc. It is very good foundation material for learning martial arts.

But it was passed off as traditional and it is not. That's a big deal.

um...


seriously?

I mean, really? you actually are surprised to learn that it's not an "authentic" Shaolin-based art? I mean, it looks nothing like it, the entire story behind it is so obviously BS, and people on here w legitimate Shaolin-art lineage have been debunking it for years;

and you are surprised he fabricated it?




wow...

[David Jamieson]

It is difficult when you finally understand you have probably wasted a lot of time and have foolishly invested in something that you thought was something else.

In all likelihood, you will seek a way to justify the loss and maybe even twist it into a gain.

But that's ok, you just have to realize that all is mind and authentic only means "old and almost forgotten" most of the time.

Shaolin is big. What's at the temple now is not what was there originally or even 80 years ago.
But then, western boxing isn't like it was 80 years ago either.

[wenshu]

The material is solid fundamental material. It teaches the basic of punching, kicking, locking, throwing, stances, weight trasnfer, power generation, evasion, countering, blocking etc. It is very good foundation material for learning martial arts.


That's a reasonable hypothesis. How could anyone here in the US ever prove whether or not he invented those forms?


I don't think Sin The' made up everything on the tape he submitted for copyright. I think that tape represents most, if not everything he learned in Indonesia.

Sin The' has tremendous basic martial skills, he can hit and kick at a very high level. He has the type of skill you develop from years of practice on fundamentals, not years of practice trying to memorize one form after another.





And does this transcript really mean it is all a fake? Bruce Lee made up JKD from something. Would it not be honest for him to say it "came from" what he learned before inventing JKD?

And lets face it: someone made up everything at one point or another. And I know, the first person who ever taught Tai Chi, or Pa Kua, or Hsing Ie, or a tiger or crane or whatever, wouldn't recognize it today. I am not convinced that modifying material, or even making up forms, although it had to come from what he learned, is that bad or that different. He didn't invent a bow stance, or a head block, or a side kick, or a tiger claw, or a pressure point.

And so we question GMT for telling us his material is from, or is, Shaolin. If he was taught by Chinese elders (no one has really ever said that wasn't true), who said they were taught from Shaolin material, did he not learn Shaolin kung fu? Did he not learn from the world of Shaolin? Does anyone think they taught him, the same way and methods and exact forms, they were taught?

And therefore, did not he teach, even what he made up, from Shaolin? If he showed us how to punch, is that not a Shaolin punch, if that is how he was taught to punch? What else could it be, if that is where he got it? Even if he also added temple blocks, sweeps, or other techniques to it? Is it less Shaolin kung fu, if it is rearranged to suit Western patience, Western tastes, Western understanding? they were shown?

And therefore I am not prepared to say that because he learned Shaolin methods and techiques and material and forms, from Shaolin based teachers and from Shaolin based methods and techiques and forms, and taught me what he said -- what I've always thought, and I don't think his deposition says otherwise -- was Shaolin based methods and techiques and forms, and that because they were not all the same forms he was taught or that were taught at the Temple, that what I have learned is worthless and I have been deceived. Or, that he knowingly or intentionally deceived.



I sense much cognitive dissonance in you Padawan.

To be a Jedi, ready you are not.

[brothernumber9]

I don't know what authentic shaolin is supposed to look like. Especially from the Fukien temple, assuming it existed. Shaolin Do IMO, did show "flags" of what may be hodge podge passed off as traditional material from a single or focused source. Perhaps there was something at the core that Sin The' learned in Indonesia that was Shaolin originated, even if it was only a few sets or drills.
CMA is global now, there is quite a bit of diversity even within same "styles". Science and access to information has led to correction of alot of folk tales, errant, and mis-information that has been propagated for hundreds of years now about some histories of different styles, or systems, or lineages, but there is still alot that cannot be verified or disproved yet.
So, what does finally hearing from the horse's mouth that Shaolin Do was, in part, or all, fabricated bring to the CMA community? What does it bring to the KFM Forum community? I don't know, but I assume it effects the vast majority the same, and thiat ultimately is, really not at all.

[Old Noob]

It is difficult when you finally understand you have probably wasted a lot of time and have foolishly invested in something that you thought was something else.

In all likelihood, you will seek a way to justify the loss and maybe even twist it into a gain.

But that's ok, you just have to realize that all is mind and authentic only means "old and almost forgotten" most of the time.

Shaolin is big. What's at the temple now is not what was there originally or even 80 years ago.
But then, western boxing isn't like it was 80 years ago either.

I guess I don't get how finding out that the source of something is a lie necessarily equals time spent training the stuff was a waste. I can see how that might be true depending on the goal when the training was undertaken but I don't think it flows by logical necessity.

I think I've even seen you say that it doesn't really matter where stuff comes from; it can still be effective and Shaolin-derived. I'm paraphrasing so forgive my inaccuracies.

I do think the folks on here that are trying to interpret what's happened as not deceiving are either being apologists or are refusing to see the facts.

Fact: there are some things on the man's own website that are not true if you believe what he said in his deposition and are not otherwise reconcilable. Either he is lying on his site or he lied under oath. There's really no way around that. So that's bad.

Bringing this around to my original point, if you're searching for the "real Shaolin" then I think you probably wasted your time. If you didn't much buy the lineage story anyway and you think the system is effective and well-designed, then I don't see how the time spent training it is wasted time. Sucks to be lied to either way but I'm just sayin'.

[LaterthanNever]

"I'm thinking of someone else who made it all up, too."

My goodness...you've got:

Simon Olaf(Temple Kung Fu)
Iron Kim(Oom young do)-did he admit he made his stuff up? Not sure. But any guy who is in prison for Tax evasion can't be too ethical.

Ashida Kim(not sure if he made it up..but I heard that he lives w/ his mom in a bsement somewhere :o

and now..Shaolin Do! :o:o:o

[wenshu]

So, what does finally hearing from the horse's mouth that Shaolin Do was, in part, or all, fabricated bring to the CMA community? What does it bring to the KFM Forum community?

A hell of a lot of rationalization.

[IronFist]

But then, western boxing isn't like it was 80 years ago either.

http://www.headmountedlasers.com/MU/holmes/boxing.jpg

[Judge Pen]

um...


seriously?

I mean, really? you actually are surprised to learn that it's not an "authentic" Shaolin-based art? I mean, it looks nothing like it, the entire story behind it is so obviously BS, and people on here w legitimate Shaolin-art lineage have been debunking it for years;

and you are surprised he fabricated it?




wow...

No I'm not surprised or particularly upset. I've been frequenting these forums for years and understand all the criticisms (and agree with many of them). I kept training because I thought the material was good despite its ambiguous origins. But many many student started training and kept training because of the representations and to have "from the horse's mouth" confirmation is a big deal to SD.

[Judge Pen]

A hell of a lot of rationalization.

Yes, I'm hearing that too, but really there is no rationalization on the origins anymore.

[IronFist]

Hopefully there will be a domino effect as all the fraudster TMA guys are busted one by one.

[wenshu]

But then, western boxing isn't like it was 80 years ago either.

I thought you would know better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess_of_Queensberry_Rules

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxiana

[bawang]

sin the is not fraud. hes asian he is allowed to do dis

[Dale Dugas]

um...


seriously?

I mean, really? you actually are surprised to learn that it's not an "authentic" Shaolin-based art? I mean, it looks nothing like it, the entire story behind it is so obviously BS, and people on here w legitimate Shaolin-art lineage have been debunking it for years;

and you are surprised he fabricated it?




wow...

I second the wow.

[bodhi warrior]

um...


seriously?

I mean, really? you actually are surprised to learn that it's not an "authentic" Shaolin-based art? I mean, it looks nothing like it, the entire story behind it is so obviously BS, and people on here w legitimate Shaolin-art lineage have been debunking it for years;

and you are surprised he fabricated it?




wow...

I saw a video of a shaolin do group going to china and indonesia. In china the shaolin monks did their demonstration and it was very similar to what you see as shaolin today. Very acrobatic, fast, etc. Then I saw students of the Indonesian school do their demo. Theirs seemed to be much more grounded and realistic for combat. And frankly it looked nothing like what was being shown in china. As a side note, the internal forms people in Indonesia were some of the best I've seen.
The external forms shown in Indonesia were very similar to what we're taught. Just a thought.

[bawang]

shaolin boxing has not changed for over 500 years.

[shen ku]

you are kidding right? all things change none or nothing stays the same

[bawang]

based on boxing manuscripts, shaolin boxing, and most northern chinese martial arts have not changed visually for 500 years.

conceptually northern martial arts has not changed for over 1000 years.

[shen ku]

have you never found away to use a tech in a way that was not shown to you? if you have then your own art has changed, with each step the world changes

[bawang]

there is a difference between variation in technique, to learning karate, make up random forms, and calling it ancient kung fu.



one is called evolution. the other is called fraud. ancient military text calls it "a perverse act of evil" "demonic influences"


why is your attitude called "evil" "demonic" by ancient kung fu masters?

believe it or not, fraud like shaolin do existed in ancient times. people also became irrationally attached to their fraudulent teachers, indotrinated, just like today.
ancient masters felt that effect on the minds is deeply disturbing, because common sense and view of reality is warped.


why were scams like shaolin do called "perverse act of evil" in ancient times?


you only live once, and if you devote many years to a fraudulent style, your entire life is wasted. ancient masters considered this a horrible crime.

many thousands of soldiers died in ancient times due to fraudulant teachers, so your style continues a long legacy of murderers and swindlers.

[IronFist]

many thousands of soldiers died in ancient times due to fraudulant teachers, so your style continues a long legacy of murderers and swindlers.

Wasn't that what happened in the boxer rebellion when they were told qigong and magic liniment would protect them from bullets? Or am I getting my stories confused.

[bawang]

that was different, all the kung fu teachers thought the world was ending, so they told their students that to commit suicide.

[shen ku]

and they were right, all of our woulds are ending, and beginning at each and every moment..

sorry but i have been truly blessed by what i have learned, evil often lies in the intent and the only intent i must worry over is my own.

[LaterthanNever]

"I've been frequenting these forums for years and understand all the criticisms (and agree with many of them)"

and you STILL study Shaolin-Do? :eek::o:confused::rolleyes:

[IronFist]

and they were right, all of our woulds are ending, and beginning at each and every moment..

sorry but i have been truly blessed by what i have learned, evil often lies in the intent and the only intent i must worry over is my own.

And the intent of others wishing to do you harm.

[Syn7]

So did this guy know any other arts before he made up his own forms or is his whole martial catalogue made up stuff? Does he even have foundation from other arts that he used to invent his own forms?

Has any SD cat ever gone into pro competition? If so, how did they do?

How many people here feel that the SD foundations they have seen are solid? I'm only asking people who have not paid to learn SD.

[LaterthanNever]

"So did this guy know any other arts before he made up his own forms or is his whole martial catalogue made up stuff?"

The term "made up" can mean three things:

1.) A master of a style can "make up" a form in the sense that it is a modification or an existing form. For instance..some have stated that the form known as 'Fu-Hok"(tiger crane fist) in Hung Ga is a modification of an earlier form known as the "Ng Ying Kuen"(5 animal form). So you have certain aspects of the original form eliminated or certain movements are changed here and there. I'm only using Fu Hok as an example. I mean no disrespect towards any Hung Kuen practitioners.

2.) Someone can "make up" a form by watching someone else perform a form once and from memory..try and "wing it". As evidenced by some of the stuff I've seen Sin Kwang The try and pass off as a Mantis form.:o

3.) Someone can make up a history of a mystical wolf man face master who was "grandmaster" of the Shaolin temple(of which to the best of my knowledge no such title has ever existed).:rolleyes:

[Judge Pen]

"I've been frequenting these forums for years and understand all the criticisms (and agree with many of them)"

and you STILL study Shaolin-Do? :eek::o:confused::rolleyes:

I don't formally train anywhere now due to injury. But yes I would still do SD because of the respect I have for my teacher's martial ability. It never mattered that much to me the origins. The material is applicable. I've sparred and trained with several different practitioners of different styles, some frequent these forums and are respected, and never felt outclassed by my ability despiste it's dubious origins. Why would that surprise you?

[bawang]

judge pen makes a sad point that quality of kung fu is so bad in america that there is no difference between made up ones and "traditional".

[Judge Pen]

judge pen makes a sad point that quality of kung fu is so bad in america that there is no difference between made up ones and "traditional".

Well, here's the thing: When I was first became interested in training martial arts, I was in a very rural part of the country, and the realistic options were an okiniawan karate school, an generic "karate class" and an SD class. By far the SD class was the best in terms of price, value and (most importantly) quality of instruction. I looked at all the schools and this wasn't even a question. Later when I moved out of that area for law school, and I had trained very hard, reached 1st black and had occasion to have tested my skills in a couple of self-defense situations and in an regional open style tournament (where I was the only SD participant), I began dabbling in other arts, but came back to SD because I found an excellent teacher that was more about the conditioning and the application than the form. It was also about that time that I started frequenting these forums so I was training through 4th black in SD knowing all of the criticisms involved. To me, it didn't change the quality of the training but I would not have felt that was if I had a different teacher.

Often times the style you train in is a function of availability and location as much as anything else.

[Scott R. Brown]

judge pen makes a sad point that quality of kung fu is so bad in america that there is no difference between made up ones and "traditional".

Ahhh!! So we are not so different from China after all!:eek:

[kwaichang]

"Well truth be known if it works and Makes you stronger then it is Good"
Bruce Lee
It depends on what you want I guess. I have found my choice. I am beginning training this month at a School that has a sound history in Northern Shaolin , Hung Jia, Chen large and small frame and Pa Kuaas well as Tang Lang under two teachers with a combined 55 years experience and who love to train and are true Kung fu people. I will let you know how it goes. KC

[David Jamieson]

judge pen makes a sad point that quality of kung fu is so bad in america that there is no difference between made up ones and "traditional".

There actually is a huge difference.

what happens is that people take advantage of the ignorance of others. That is the entire foundation of marketing anything that is not an actual object product.

knowledge transfers have no guarantee anyway. Nobody learns to fight through osmosis.

[wenshu]

Well, here's the thing: When I was first became interested in training martial arts, I was in a very rural part of the country, and the realistic options were an okiniawan karate school, an generic "karate class" and an SD class.

Is't Shaolin Do just generic karate in the first place? Generic karate with Chinese trappings.

Generic karate with mantis claws and crane beaks

[kwaichang]

YES u are right hate to say it but that is what it is. I spent much time and effort in SD and got alot from it but not what I really wanted. KC we are all just students anyway.

[bodhi warrior]

"Well truth be known if it works and Makes you stronger then it is Good"
Bruce Lee
It depends on what you want I guess. I have found my choice. I am beginning training this month at a School that has a sound history in Northern Shaolin , Hung Jia, Chen large and small frame and Pa Kuaas well as Tang Lang under two teachers with a combined 55 years experience and who love to train and are true Kung fu people. I will let you know how it goes. KC

Is this school in Kentucky?

[bawang]

Often times the style you train in is a function of availability and location as much as anything else.

its ok to train made up martial arts. its ok to feel loyalty and attachment. the key here is, sin the lied to you, and you guys either dont care, or are ok with that. you guys know fully now shaolin do has nothing to do with shaolin.

my point is

1. man should not allow others to fuk him. you let sin the fuk you so you are less than a man.

2. anyone that is content with being deceived and lied to is a subhuman animal.


i am not attacking you. this is the truth.

[PalmStriker]

I'm thinking of someone else who made it all up, too.
Who? (be dat):D

[Drake]

If I just grab a man by his throat and punch his head until he stops twitching... Does it matter if I made that move up or learned it from someone?

[Judge Pen]

its ok to train made up martial arts. its ok to feel loyalty and attachment. the key here is, sin the lied to you, and you guys either dont care, or are ok with that. you guys know fully now shaolin do has nothing to do with shaolin.

my point is

1. man should not allow others to fuk him. you let sin the fuk you so you are less than a man.

2. anyone that is content with being deceived and lied to is a subhuman animal.


i am not attacking you. this is the truth.

I am less than a man because somone lied to me? Really? I am "subhuman" because I found worth in training that was based on representations that were a lie? When the origins were secondary to me and the training was primary? I do not condone or defend the lie. I do not rationalize why he lied. But I was still trained well by my teachers. I can apply what I was taught and got hours of sweat and sore muscles from it. There is value there.

And you would not call me less than a man to my face even with my phony lineage training. We would probably have a beer and get along nicely. And if we sparred you would respect me afterwards. I've never sparred anyone that did not.

[Judge Pen]

Is't Shaolin Do just generic karate in the first place? Generic karate with Chinese trappings.

Generic karate with mantis claws and crane beaks

I chose my school based on the quality of the instruction by the teacher. I didn't care about lineage or origins. What teacher had the best class, sparred the most, taught applications the most, was the best person. I chose the best school from the options I had available. It was only further along in my training did issues with lineage and origins become an issue.

[kwaichang]

Its all Ego with every one. What if the tables were turned how would you want to be treated, helped or scolded and scorned. ?? ask yourself that then post. KC

[David Jamieson]

Its all Ego with every one. What if the tables were turned how would you want to be treated, helped or scolded and scorned. ?? ask yourself that then post. KC

If you lie, and you know you lie, how you would like to be treated and how you are going to be treated are two different planes of reality.

How you are going to be treated is probably closer to how you deserve to be treated when one considers that the treatment is stemming from a lie you told.

Nobody deserves politeness when they treat you like a stupid chump.
Nobody deserves your good graces when they take money from you for something and give you an inferior thing in place of what you thought you would get.

It's absurd to ask for anything but mercy when you are culpable of an act of deception and what amounts to playing a confidence game on people.

I mean, that's the real world for you.

[kwaichang]

But some of you are treating the duped as the wrong doers, if you werent a student you have no perspective of the situation and no right to what truth is or not. We who have bought into this with time and effort. Have suffered and benefited from the training in a physical sense. So there is value there. David you seem vindictive did you invest in this thing or are you just outside looking in? KC

[Old Noob]

There was a lie. There doesn't seem to be a way to reconcile that. But how is one duped when they didn't really believe the lineage story anyway and chose the school because of the training and the individual ability of the instructor? Seems to me that one got exactly what they paid for; good training and solid skills. Good training and solid skills are not necessarily inferior because they don't originate from the source an absent grandmaster claims. This is particularly true if that wasn't what you were paying for in the first place.

I'm not trying to rationalize the lie. People who paid for "authentic shaolin" have a real claim to be reimbursed. People who paid for good training and got it weren't robbed. They were only lied to. Not saying that isn't bad but lets keep the perspective.

[kwaichang]

It is a delima you get good training and a good technique and it works in a fight , so what else is there? Truth in training, it is not REAL Shaolin and is not what it was sold as being. So I am talking about Duped as far as not getting the real deal which is how it is marketed. Personally I dont like to be lied to. KC But those that are giving the practitioners down the road need to back off a little.Put blame where blame is due. KC:)

[David Jamieson]

But some of you are treating the duped as the wrong doers, if you werent a student you have no perspective of the situation and no right to what truth is or not. We who have bought into this with time and effort. Have suffered and benefited from the training in a physical sense. So there is value there. David you seem vindictive did you invest in this thing or are you just outside looking in? KC

I don't think the duped are the ones who should be blamed. I think the duped need to recognize they were duped and accept it, that's all.

I'm not vindictive about it and what I have invested is my own study of Shaolin over the years without making grandiose claims, shilling and duping people.

It is untrue that an outsider can have no perspective, especially when we are talking about someone who piggy backs on something that is much older. If Thé had chosen to teach and promote a system he created that would be a fair thing to say by you, but he didn't. He created a huge conflict in the understanding of Shaolin Kung Fu and therefore caused a rift and a need to speak to that over the years by those people who had undertaken to study these art forms and such.

He created a couple of generations of moderately skilled karateka and claimed they were shaolin trained.

Absurd and people will speak to that. Nobody should take offense when the boy in the street indicates the emperor has no clothes. In fact, they should be thankful to the boy for helping them to not continue looking and acting like idiots around their king.

[MasterKiller]

But some of you are treating the duped as the wrong doers, Well, it's not like people here weren't telling you for YEARS what was going on. You chose not to listen. So, you are just as culpable.

[tattooedmonk]

Who Gives a Rats Ass?

I do not condone presenting fraudulant / made up material as true and authentic forms from a given system.

However, if you have enough skill and understanding of the theory and principles of your given system, the forms or material you make up your self will in itself be a represenative of the system, will it not?

I made up a small practice drill / form for my childrens curriculum. Am I fruadulently representing my system?

Really... who cares what other people do. Some of you guys argue about the most stupid and irrelavant MA tyopics.

ginosifuThis pretty much sums it up!! thanks sifu!:D:cool:

[David Jamieson]

This pretty much sums it up!! thanks sifu!:D:cool:

Uh, Gino is from a legitimate traceable and recorded lineage. So, he can have the luxury of saying such things.

he is also speaking in context to the beginner forms.

Now, in your case, it is not nearly in the position of legitimacy that Gino is in.

Not even close.

[tattooedmonk]

Uh, Gino is from a legitimate traceable and recorded lineage. So, he can have the luxury of saying such things.

he is also speaking in context to the beginner forms.

Now, in your case, it is not nearly in the position of legitimacy that Gino is in.

Not even close. What do you know of my backround and training? What if I am in a legitimate, traceable and recorded lineage? :D:eek::cool:

[Drake]

This sounds like a conversation horse or dog breeders would be having.

Can you kick a man's head off? Yes? Good. Problem solved.

Buy American!

[David Jamieson]

What do you know of my backround and training? What if I am in a legitimate, traceable and recorded lineage? :D:eek::cool:

YOu've already made claim you were an SD guy. If you were legit, you'd lay it out and we'd eat crow.

So, can you do that? Cause I'd be happy to eat crow if you are in a legit lineage of a legit art and not an SD person who thinks they're practicing some ancient art when in fact they're doing mediocre kempo karate at best.

[kwaichang]

David I trained in Hung Kuen and 7*Tang Lang for 10 years prior to SD and Shotokan , Aikido and Kendo under very reputable teachers Just because u do SD dont make u a woose. KC

[Oso]

JP has some skill. He's a good guy. I've sparred him and watched him spar his ass off in a moderate contact tournament, fighting 6 or 7 fights (max 3, 2 min rounds as usual) but in something like just a 2 hour span of time. Irrelevent of the source, he's no slouch.

That being said, I despise SD because of the lie. I myself was duped for 13 years (not by SD) ...but gained some skill irrelevent of the source. However, because of the lie, I walked away and burned that bridge completely down. I would say I was humiliated the first time I showed up at the GLKFT, but the mantis folks there were very nice about telling me what I was doing wasn't mantis. If it's made up; say so and the proof will be in the pudding. Lying to stoke and/or protect your own ego is total bullsh!t, especially when you are taking money from someone.

Ironically, one of my last, closest students just started training SD. I think he's an idiot because the SD school here is not the best option for training available. All other schools are about the same distance and about the same price. And, when I shut down, I turned him to the mma coach I'd trained with some, this guy is not very well known but he was Spencer Fisher's first coach. In his idiocy, he 'don't like grappling' and doesn't want to train karate...but want's to train 'something'. :rolleyes: I didn't even say anything in response, if he didn't get it after training with me for 4 years, it's a lost cause.

My point with the last paragraph is that, as said, it's hard not to blame the duped too because the liers wouldn't get away with it if there weren't a large percentage of people wanting to believe the lie.

[tattooedmonk]

YOu've already made claim you were an SD guy. If you were legit, you'd lay it out and we'd eat crow.

So, can you do that? Cause I'd be happy to eat crow if you are in a legit lineage of a legit art and not an SD person who thinks they're practicing some ancient art when in fact they're doing mediocre kempo karate at best. thats just a part of what I do.

staying with the topic at hand, I practice the chinese arts that SD introduced me to when I was with them and still use quite a bit of it with the necessary changes . ;)

Awhile back I started to learn and gain a better understanding of what I wanted to know about SD, CMA... mostly within the internal arts. From TCM school to authentic, legit teachers and masters...because I coudnt get recognized by anyone outside of SD.:D:eek::cool:

I never believed or cared about the lineage...I cared about the diamond in the rough as I saw it...:p

I will be more than happy to share this information some other time....:)

[taai gihk yahn]

This

But some of you are treating the duped as the wrong doers, if you werent a student you have no perspective of the situation and no right to what truth is or not.
+
this

Well, it's not like people here weren't telling you for YEARS what was going on. You chose not to listen. So, you are just as culpable.
=
the entire point of this thread in a nutshell

[tattooedmonk]

This

+
this

=
the entire point of this thread in a nutshell He wanted to believe... just like many of the past and present students.... many people want to be a part of something greater than themselves and will ignore evidence that proves the opposite just so they can keep believeing.

I still believe SD has just as much claim to the Shaolin name as anyone else...its just a name.


To me Shaolin isnt a set of forms, a geographical location or teachings from a recognizable lineage....its in the heart/ spirit....its in the philosophy and practice of the individual... :)

[Yao Sing]

To me Shaolin isnt a set of forms, a geographical location or teachings from a recognizable lineage....its in the heart/ spirit....its in the philosophy and practice of the individual... :)

Hippy! :p



Actually Shaolin IS a geographical location. :rolleyes:

[tattooedmonk]

Hippy! :p



Actually Shaolin IS a geographical location. :rolleyes:I believe it is an idea, a philosophy, a spirit and yes it is/was geographical location... but seeing as I only have the teachings, my practice and dont live there, thats all it is to me, cool :cool:?

[Yao Sing]

I believe it is an idea, a philosophy, a spirit and yes it is/was geographical location... but seeing as I only have the teachings, my practice and dont live there, thats all it is to me, cool :cool:?

That's just nonsense.

Unfortunately you don't gave any of the Shaolin philosophy or spirit, all you have are questionable Kung Fu moves.

Shaolin is NOT about fighting or martial arts, that's just a side effect of their pursuit of enlightenment.

Too many peeps go off the deep end with this stuff. No wonder it's so easy to scam, the marks do all the work for you. :D

[David Jamieson]

Shaolin IS a place. I agree.

From whence came three treasures.

Martial Arts, Medicine, Ch'an.

[tattooedmonk]

That's just nonsense.

Unfortunately you don't gave any of the Shaolin philosophy or spirit, all you have are questionable Kung Fu moves.

Shaolin is NOT about fighting or martial arts, that's just a side effect of their pursuit of enlightenment.

Too many peeps go off the deep end with this stuff. No wonder it's so easy to scam, the marks do all the work for you. :DMaybe to you. You have your opinion I have mine, So?:eek::cool:

haha You dont know anything about me. :)

you never know, I might know more about this than you might think or believe. :D

to assume that I am off the deep end about any of this means you havent understood or wanted to understand the truth in what I am saying. :cool:

[Drake]

Shaolin IS a place. I agree.

From whence came three treasures.

Martial Arts, Medicine, Ch'an.

And fashionably orange suits.

[Drake]

Maybe to you. You have your opinion I have mine, So?:eek::cool:

haha You dont know anything about me. :)

you never know, I might know more about this than you might think or believe. :D

to assume that I am off the deep end about any of this means you havent understood or wanted to understand the truth in what I am saying. :cool:

You can't make **** up and then defend it by saying you don't have to defend it.

[David Jamieson]

And fashionably orange suits.

They're Saffron. :p

[tattooedmonk]

Shaolin IS a place. I agree.

From whence came three treasures.

Martial Arts, Medicine, Ch'an.ahh the 3 m's; Meditation/ Chan being the 3rd.

...and what is it that you know /believe the treasures based on? :)

I like where this going btw.. I like good conversation with knowledge and pretty level headed people:D

[tattooedmonk]

You can't make **** up and then defend it by saying you don't have to defend it. really? you can choose to do either , neither or both ... :D and what are you refering to may I ask, specifically??:)

[Drake]

really? you can choose to do either , neither or both ... :D and what are you refering to may I ask, specifically??:)

Your "truth" is actually not a truth. It's how you processed a reality, and there is an absolute right or wrong, regardless of whether or not your brain processed the stimuli correctly.

I can say that your gun cannot harm me, because I don't believe in it. But rest assured, pull the trigger and I'll be quite dead.

Secondly, vague wording simply used to eliminate specific facts isn't fair play. If Shaolin is a physical place, then it is exactly that, regardless of what you wish it to be.

Westerners need to get out of the ridiculous habit of embellishing other cultures as a method of somehow creating their own identity and sense of uniqueness. In the end, that's what it boils down to. People get wrapped up in this horse**** because they want to feel special or unique. Obliterates the concept of selflessness when it's all about you.

[tattooedmonk]

They're Saffron. :pisnt saffron more yellow than orange? also, isnt it more expensive than gold?!!:p saffron, not oranges:)

[David Jamieson]

The martial arts, I lean towards Dr. Meir Shahar's work in regards to as to why that exists and thrives in a Buddhist monastic temple in China.

The medicine is part and parcel to Buddhism in it's call for compassion and right action. All Buddhist monastic temples would have medicinal practice within them in some way shape or form.

The Ch'an is Dhayana and distilled into the unique Chinese Ch'an Buddhism which was founded and seeded at the Shaolin Temple.

All in an effort to fulfill the 8 fold path and employing the 5 precepts to do so along the way.

The 8 fold path is the way to end suffering in Buddhist thought. There are many variants of how to teach or instill each of the calls in the 8 fold path. Through involvement with the three treasures, a person can instill through time and effort (Kung Fu) Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right effort, Right mindfulness and Right concentration.

In their abstract conceptual form, any of these 8 can be applied in mind or body.
Standing on the shoulders of giants, trial and error and probably more than a little faith have brought us to today. And that too shall pass. :p

[tattooedmonk]

Your "truth" is actually not a truth. It's how you processed a reality, and there is an absolute right or wrong, regardless of whether or not your brain processed the stimuli correctly.

I can say that your gun cannot harm me, because I don't believe in it. But rest assured, pull the trigger and I'll be quite dead.

Secondly, vague wording simply used to eliminate specific facts isn't fair play. If Shaolin is a physical place, then it is exactly that, regardless of what you wish it to be.

Westerners need to get out of the ridiculous habit of embellishing other cultures as a method of somehow creating their own identity and sense of uniqueness. In the end, that's what it boils down to. People get wrapped up in this horse**** because they want to feel special or unique. Obliterates the concept of selflessness when it's all about you. MY truth?? I don't have my own personal truth ....for the third time today, what do you know about me ? :)

When did I say I didnt believe in wrong or right? :confused:
Now who's going over the deep end?:rolleyes:

the choice is there to pick it up and use it, part of that is knowing when and how to use it, it wont do anything else but sit there otherwise.:D;):cool: I know its potential and dangers.:cool:

...blahblahblah

you are making a lot of assumptions. :eek::D:cool:

[tattooedmonk]

The martial arts, I lean towards Dr. Meir Shahar's work in regards to as to why that exists and thrives in a Buddhist monastic temple in China.

The medicine is part and parcel to Buddhism in it's call for compassion and right action. All Buddhist monastic temples would have medicinal practice within them in some way shape or form.

The Ch'an is Dhayana and distilled into the unique Chinese Ch'an Buddhism which was founded and seeded at the Shaolin Temple.

All in an effort to fulfill the 8 fold path and employing the 5 precepts to do so along the way.

The 8 fold path is the way to end suffering in Buddhist thought. There are many variants of how to teach or instill each of the calls in the 8 fold path. Through involvement with the three treasures, a person can instill through time and effort (Kung Fu) Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right effort, Right mindfulness and Right concentration.

In their abstract conceptual form, any of these 8 can be applied in mind or body.
Standing on the shoulders of giants, trial and error and probably more than a little faith have brought us to today. And that too shall pass. :p cool, are you currently a practitioner of buddhism? do you/how do you apply it to your martial teachings/ practice?

[Drake]

MY truth?? I don't have my own personal truth ....for the third time today, what do you know about me ? :)

When did I say I didnt believe in wrong or right? :confused:
Now who's going over the deep end?:rolleyes:

the choice is there to pick it up and use it, part of that is knowing when and how to use it, it wont do anything else but sit there otherwise.:D;):cool: I know its potential and dangers.:cool:

...blahblahblah

you are making a lot of assumptions. :eek::D:cool:

1. I don't have to know you if you fall into a common category of narcissistic abusers of emoticons. You aren't special or unique (See previous post).

2. You took a lot of general statements very personally.

3. You are doing exactly as I described. If it looks like a duck...quacks like a duck. You get the picture.

[Yao Sing]

haha You dont know anything about me. :)

Why do people think they can make ridiculous comments then brush off criticism with "you don't know me or anything about me"? On a forum all we have to judge others on is their comments. Say dumb things and everyone will question your intelligence (general statement, not directed towards you).


to assume that I am off the deep end about any of this means you havent understood or wanted to understand the truth in what I am saying. :cool:

I understood what you said. If you meant something else then you didn't articulate it very well.

[tattooedmonk]

1. I don't have to know you if you fall into a common category of narcissistic abusers of emoticons. You aren't special or unique (See previous post).

2. You took a lot of general statements very personally.

3. You are doing exactly as I described. If it looks like a duck...quacks like a duck. You get the picture. 1. Haha thats really funny, wow you came up with all of that on your own Drake?

2. actually I took things that were said about/ to me specifically and responded to them accordingly. I woulld expect someone who is focusing so much on the details of the conversation that you would know the difference.

3. decribed where? in your lists or judgmental views of people and things? whatever dude....

Give it a rest

[bawang]

JP has some skill. He's a good guy. I've sparred him and watched him spar his ass off in a moderate contact tournament, fighting 6 or 7 fights (max 3, 2 min rounds as usual) but in something like just a 2 hour span of time. Irrelevent of the source, he's no slouch.

That being said, I despise SD because of the lie. I myself was duped for 13 years (not by SD)

whether he can fight or not doesnt matter. the point is about integrity, honesty, and truth.

[tattooedmonk]

Why do people think they can make ridiculous comments then brush off criticism with "you don't know me or anything about me"? On a forum all we have to judge others on is their comments. Say dumb things and everyone will question your intelligence (general statement, not directed towards you).



I understood what you said. If you meant something else then you didn't articulate it very well. what did I say that was dumb to you sir? generally and specifically??

well I am glad you did nt have any problem articulated what you meant . lt would be easier just to ask me what I meant if you didnt understand it rather than trying to be offensive. luckily for us I didnt take it in that way and will take what you have said into consideration.

If I dont make myself clear enough for everyone to understand what I mean in the future I will do what I can to articulate my comments better so all of you can relate to me better and so I an understand and relate to all of you better.....ok?

[tattooedmonk]

whether he can fight or not doesnt matter. the point is about integrity, honesty, and truth. why dont you just ask around about him specifically and I think you will find no matter what arts, threads forums, etc. everyone here will say that judge pen is all of these things and more.... just saying.

[bawang]

I found worth in training that was based on representations that were a lie
sin the throws sand on the ground, tell you its grain, and you will peck it.

[Yao Sing]

what did I say that was dumb to you sir? generally and specifically??

You don't read text inside parenthesis do you?

Anyhow, I took what you said at face value so there was no need to ask for clarifiction. Not looking for senseless arguing so I'm done.

BTW, are we really going to keep 2 threads going about this?

[tattooedmonk]

You don't read text inside parenthesis do you?

Anyhow, I took what you said at face value so there was no need to ask for clarifiction. Not looking for senseless arguing so I'm done.

BTW, are we really going to keep 2 threads going about this?ok....hmm what I meant is that you dont know me in anyway, generally or specifically...is that what you are refering?

there were comments directed to me and I responded accordingly.


Nope, it will get merged eventually or removed...so I dont care.

[Scott R. Brown]

ahh the 3 m's; Meditation/ Chan being the 3rd.

...and what is it that you know /believe the treasures based on? :)

I like where this going btw.. I like good conversation with knowledge and pretty level headed people:D

Shaolin did not give meditation to the world, and neither is Ch'an actually about meditation.

[tattooedmonk]

Shaolin did not give meditation to the world, and neither is Ch'an actually about meditation.thanks, I am aware of these things too.

Shaolin chan is an interpretation of the teachings ...meditation is just a vehicle and method for understanding.

Do you practice other forms of meditation, buddhism, etc??

[Oso]

whether he can fight or not doesnt matter. the point is about integrity, honesty, and truth.

but not particularly JP's integrity. While I've agreed that some culpability lies in the part of the believers, most is with the liar. We're all human and at different times in our lives crave something that sometimes we can't really articulate. Sometimes, something falls in our path that fits that craving and we go with it. Sometimes you get far enough along that path with the craving that you have to keep going, at least for a little while. I discovered the truth about my old teacher and school but stayed for another 2 years so I could at least say that I had studied a 'system' for 13 years and been ranked to the level of 'teacher' in that system. Then, i got the **** out of there as fast as I could and have never, well 'rarely', looked back. And, yet, I still got some good things from that experience.

AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

[Syn7]

There actually is a huge difference.

what happens is that people take advantage of the ignorance of others. That is the entire foundation of marketing anything that is not an actual object product.

knowledge transfers have no guarantee anyway. Nobody learns to fight through osmosis.

Word... and just coz you can prove a lineage does not mean you are doing what the founder did. In fact I would argue that in most OLD styles that what we see from todays lineage holders would be quite different from what the originals looked like. Even with manuals that show the postures but no have no transitional data, those are very susceptible to changes despite the fact that the style has been illustrated.

Take SupGee from Bak Mei for example. Even in the CLC lineage I have seen like 30 different versions of the same form. Some carry the same principles, some don't. But all are legitimate and can trace their lineage to the same people.

I'm a B-Boy, and when I do a certain move it doesn't always look like others doing the same moves because we all personalize and tailor these things to ourselves. A six step is a six step and the foundations are always the same yet so many people look so different rocking out a 6step.

[Syn7]

I chose my school based on the quality of the instruction by the teacher. I didn't care about lineage or origins. What teacher had the best class, sparred the most, taught applications the most, was the best person. I chose the best school from the options I had available. It was only further along in my training did issues with lineage and origins become an issue.

Are you sure you just don't feel dumb deep inside and feel the need to justify all that time and money you put in to this style? That would make infinitely more sense.

I have seen SD and I would never train that. What I have seen has been weak.

Billy Blanks Thai Bo workout actually is a great workout and could help you in a fight in a very very limited way, but that doesn't make it a worth learning.
The simple truth is that anyone who does exercises and hits a heavy bag will have a leg up on somebody who does nothing, but that doesn't make it an efficient way to learn how to fight.

Why do SD when you can do better for the same money and time put in? In fact I bet A real style would be cheaper. I learn authentic BakMei for 60 bucks a month. How much is SD a month anyways?


And for the rest of you...
Do you think a class action suit to recover fees would be do-able? It was fraudulent after all and nobody actually got what they were told they were paying for.

[Scott R. Brown]

thanks, I am aware of these things too.

Shaolin chan is an interpretation of the teachings ...meditation is just a vehicle and method for understanding.

Hmmmm...I am not sure I agree with you there!



Do you practice other forms of meditation, buddhism, etc??

Yes!

[Syn7]

But some of you are treating the duped as the wrong doers, if you werent a student you have no perspective of the situation and no right to what truth is or not. We who have bought into this with time and effort. Have suffered and benefited from the training in a physical sense. So there is value there. David you seem vindictive did you invest in this thing or are you just outside looking in? KC

If you were able to be so easily duped(remember most of us here saw thru this sh1t right away) then maybe you deserve to be ripped off for not doing proper research and fully understanding what it was you were paying for. I don't have too much sympathy for people who are so easilly ripped off unless they are actually mentally retarded or really old or something like that. When an average guy gets ripped off I think more about how dumb they were than how corrupt the fraudster was.

Oh and if you are still going after you learned it was fraud then you are just dumb.

[tattooedmonk]

Hmmmm...I am not sure I agree with you there!




Yes!

Shaolin chan is an interpretation of the teachings ...meditation is just a vehicle and method for understanding.

Hmmmm...I am not sure I agree with you there!

Thats the great thing about what we are discussing , we dont have to agree. you have your opinion and understanding and I have mine.



Do you practice other forms of meditation, buddhism, etc??

Yes!

do mind me asking/ telling me what types or forms?

[Scott R. Brown]

do mind me asking/ telling me what types or forms?

formlessness!

[tattooedmonk]

formlessness!cool, free style, I get it.

[David Jamieson]

cool, are you currently a practitioner of buddhism? do you/how do you apply it to your martial teachings/ practice?

I recognize and acknowledge the validity and worth of Buddhism.
I employ it within my own self, but I cannot say I am a religious Buddhist.
I employ the 8 fold path in practice as is. Especially right mindfulness, right intention, right action, right effort and right concentration. Using the abstract ideas to seek the correct structures and energies required for the task.

I practice daily meditation and martial arts and for the medicinal aspect have become adept at Tui-na and healing massage as well as being able to to make draughts, liniments etc for minor maladies and ailments. (I'm also a full certified first responder with SJA).

The interesting thing is that it is possible to continue these things right up until passing. That seems a worthwhile pursuit to me.

[kwaichang]

Syn I usually try to be polite but FU u are an ass, so you are so sharp you have never been scammed or told a Lie and was taken? are u divorced well if u are then u were Duped. So STFU if you cant be respectful. I tire of Aholes like U.
Also to all the others who talk about the Lieing, who among you have not lied in your lifetime. even a white lie as they are called. Or embellished a little etc. That too is a Lie. "Who among Us is without Flaw" Master Po KC

[David Jamieson]

Syn I usually try to be polite but FU u are an ass, so you are so sharp you have never been scammed or told a Lie and was taken? are u divorced well if u are then u were Duped. So STFU if you cant be respectful. I tire of Aholes like U.
Also to all the others who talk about the Lieing, who among you have not lied in your lifetime. even a white lie as they are called. Or embellished a little etc. That too is a Lie. "Who among Us is without Flaw" Master Po KC

You are comparing the idea of stealing a candy bar vs stealing a car.
It is the degrees to which we entangle ourselves and others in our deceptions that matters.

No one is all these things you say in small ways and no small peccadilloes are seen as fraud. They are seen as personal folly. But when it involves a repeated lie told to thousands in order to continue to take money from them all the while these people are expecting to progress and be part of something that is greater and real.

And then... Well, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain right?

You are blaming the observer. Why should the observer respect what is tantamount to fraudulence? That's a stretch to ask for.

Don't expect respect or courtesy for someone that has been disrespectful and discourteous.

[kwaichang]

A lie is a lie is a lie nomatter how big or small, Stealing a candy bar or car is still stealing no matter the size. David I am not asking GMT to be forgiven I am asking for those on here to try to be understood and know that many of us and others have been played the fool. But none the less since many feel it is about fighting, I will put my skills up there with any of you guys. I am feeling alot better now after having suffered a bad back injury 2 years ago. also I have already found 2 very reputable people to train with so nuff said. KC:mad:

[MasterKiller]

KC vs KFM over the last few years:

KFM: This is a duck.
KC: No it's a platypus.

KFM: See that duck? This also looks like that duck.
KC: It might have duck-like features, but it is certainly a platypus.

KFM: Our resident Ph.D zoologist has already discerned that is most certainly a duck.
KC: You wouldn't know a real platypus because you are too busy seeing ducks.

KC: OMG!! This is a duck! I had no idea!
KFM: Told you so.

KC: STOP RIDICULING ME!

[kwaichang]

MK your point is , ??????? not folowing the Duck thing . BTW a platypus is a conglomerant of animals it seems, so nothing is real . All of you guys are so sure that what u do is the real deal, well if your teacher did something and taught you something in a form different than what was originally done say a front kick instead of a side kick for example. So that is Lieing. So shold you be considered stupid if you find this to be true. Or just having wishful thinking and sincere dedication. Then u are the same . KC:p

[kwaichang]

All I can say is those of you without SIN of the moral sense, cast the 1st stone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KC

[Judge Pen]

JP has some skill. He's a good guy. I've sparred him and watched him spar his ass off in a moderate contact tournament, fighting 6 or 7 fights (max 3, 2 min rounds as usual) but in something like just a 2 hour span of time. Irrelevent of the source, he's no slouch.

Thank-you. I knew you had a bad experience in the past. I think SD trained me fairly well all things considered. Would I have been "better" if I spent that time training another art (with a "verified" lineage)? Maybe, but I can't say that for certain. You get out of your training what you put into it. My shortcomings as a martial artist are my own.

[Judge Pen]

sin the throws sand on the ground, tell you its grain, and you will peck it.

Now you're just trolling. Go back to the bridge and wait for the billy goats.

[Judge Pen]

whether he can fight or not doesnt matter. the point is about integrity, honesty, and truth.

I thought the point was about finding value in your martial arts. If I am honest, truthful and full of integrity and train hard what else can I do? I can only control myself and my actions, not others.

[Judge Pen]

Are you sure you just don't feel dumb deep inside and feel the need to justify all that time and money you put in to this style? That would make infinitely more sense.

I have seen SD and I would never train that. What I have seen has been weak.

Billy Blanks Thai Bo workout actually is a great workout and could help you in a fight in a very very limited way, but that doesn't make it a worth learning.
The simple truth is that anyone who does exercises and hits a heavy bag will have a leg up on somebody who does nothing, but that doesn't make it an efficient way to learn how to fight.

Why do SD when you can do better for the same money and time put in? In fact I bet A real style would be cheaper. I learn authentic BakMei for 60 bucks a month. How much is SD a month anyways?


And for the rest of you...
Do you think a class action suit to recover fees would be do-able? It was fraudulent after all and nobody actually got what they were told they were paying for.

No I honestly don't. If I started training there because I wanted to learn authentic "shaolin" then I probably would feel stupid. For the first 5 years of my training under my first teacher we rarely talked about lineage or history. It was "get your stances lower, punch harder, keep your hands up." When I started training under the Mullins' it was "get lower, punch harder, keep your hands up" and the history and lineage and stories. I started discussing those things here and was educated on a great many of the criticims. But I kept focusing on the martial aspects because my teachers were teaching me correctly. You can go back and look at my posts and see that I was critical of many other SD teachers and how they were teaching their students.

I paid $20 a month for several years. Then I paid $40 a month. Every SD school charges its own amount. I'm sure the Soards charge more.

[MasterKiller]

MK your point is , ??????? not folowing the Duck thing . BTW a platypus is a conglomerant of animals it seems, so nothing is real . All of you guys are so sure that what u do is the real deal, well if your teacher did something and taught you something in a form different than what was originally done say a front kick instead of a side kick for example. So that is Lieing. So shold you be considered stupid if you find this to be true. Or just having wishful thinking and sincere dedication. Then u are the same . KC:p

There is difference between a teacher changing a front kick to a side kick and a teacher who forces his students to venerate him "as you would the President of the United States" for his vast Shaolin knowledge who then turns out to be a complete fraud.

I dare you to go back and read that "Is Shaolin-Do for Real?" thread and, in light of your recent sea change, try not to cringe at all the rationalizations you guys were spouting for 11 years.

[kwaichang]

I have read much and said earlier I owe alot of apologies, but it seems that is not enough for you guys on here,. You all want to beat a dead horse, instead of offering to help those of us who are still wanting to train , find a teacher that is truthful, you choose to condemn and say nanananna told ya so. its like talking to a 3 year old. Some calling stupid and other things. Why is it that those that profess to care so much should relish the fact of what happened and then help them and the X SD people a new home to train in. Only one guy on this forum has offered to help with that 1. That was in a PM at that. WOW ! KC

[MasterKiller]

I have read much and said earlier I owe alot of apologies, but it seems that is not enough for you guys on here,. You all want to beat a dead horse, instead of offering to help those of us who are still wanting to train , find a teacher that is truthful, you choose to condemn and say nanananna told ya so. its like talking to a 3 year old. Some calling stupid and other things. Why is it that those that profess to care so much should relish the fact of what happened and then help them and the X SD people a new home to train in. Only one guy on this forum has offered to help with that 1. That was in a PM at that. WOW ! KC

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Yhmb2ZjFBNk/SBq-A4AmoNI/AAAAAAAAA_E/gPLHmnYVFzc/s320/Karla+Faye+Tucker.jpg

She had orgasms while hitting another woman with a pick axe in the chest. 10 years later she regretted it.

http://www.fairfaxunderground.com/forum/file.php?40,file=31766,filename=Mad.jpg

[kwaichang]

MK posted a pic of his wife and said she hit someone with a pick ax. Again your points elude me, I trained hard and well and have no fear of anyone on this forum, so what ever i did get is prob superior though not real than most of the peoples on here. What is real is the skills I have cause a Kick in CLF Hung Gar Tang Lang or SD is still the same kick that will knock ur a$$ out.
MK u really should take Gordon Liu off your avatar he is a Budhist and follows the principles of that Philosophy as you dont.

[MasterKiller]

MK posted a pic of his wife and said she hit someone with a pick ax.

MK u really should take Gordon Liu off your avatar he is a Budhist and follows the principles of that Philosophy as you dont.

Oh, the irony.

At least your screen name, a fake TV kung fu monk, is now befitting your reality.

[kwaichang]

So are you protecting what is most important at this time or just BS on a forum? Do my taxes pay u or what , dont tell me you are a well never mind , so your wife has a mullet like GMT too awesome. KC MK u are such a joke. I laugh in your gen direction. Peace to u my misguided friend.

[taai gihk yahn]

MK your point is , ???????
his point is that, for years, you and every other SD'r on here had the glaringly obvious flaws regarding SD's history and content pointed out to you all; yet despite this, you all blithely ignored what you were being told; and so now that the truth is out, when u hav no choice but to admit it, now u want to just live and let live; apprantly no one told u how things like this work...:rolleyes:


I have read much and said earlier I owe alot of apologies, but it seems that is not enough for you guys on here,. You all want to beat a dead horse, instead of offering to help those of us who are still wanting to train , find a teacher that is truthful, you choose to condemn and say nanananna told ya so. its like talking to a 3 year old.
wel, now u kno what it was like trying to explain to u all the obviously fraudulent nature of SD...
look, the thing is, you don't "owe" any apologies - because you didn't do anything to offend anyone; so just saying that doesn't get u off any hook - there's no hook to get off; u basically held onto a perspective that was delusional; and now that the truth is out, u r going to just hav to suc it up and take whatever comes ur way; no one owes u any consideration - u can can just take it or leave it (and hey, if sumone offers to help u, great, but why wud u expect anyone to do that, after ignoring the "help" that was being offered to u for years?)


MK u really should take Gordon Liu off your avatar he is a Budhist and follows the principles of that Philosophy as you dont.
really? let me tell you, there are plenty of Buddhists who wud smack u silly far worse than this...

[kwaichang]

Every one talks such a big game on here. But few understand we are all in the same boat and true MA care about the others that train and the well being of others, I take nothing from any one, but I can at least know one person on here understands the true brotherhood of MA and isnt on here just to say see told ya. None the less I am putting myself out here for all of you to say what ever you want . The thing is I trained for many years prior to SD and will train many more. So what ever. Like they say sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never harm me. so peace to all and BTW we still dont know what the truth is in all this? KC

[kwaichang]

Stories permeat all styles and Martial ways, this exists in every style I have studied 7 Star < Hung Gar, Shotokan, Yoshukai, Aikido, Jeet Kune Do etc etc etc. So why should SD be any different, why should CLF or any art be different. They are not, all who study have heard these stories, ALL. Well I am still who I am before and after SD I take what was good and go from there. and yes SD did have good points as well as bad, what disturbes me the most is the Lie for Money. Thing. I like SD and all the stuff real or not, I made alot of good friends in it. It is sad and freeing as well. KC

[bawang]

I have read much and said earlier I owe alot of apologies, but it seems that is not enough for you guys on here,.


you owe yourself an apology.

[Judge Pen]

AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

LOL. :D Why else do we train in a martial art?

[RickMatz]

You mean there is no hairy guy? Phooey.

I guess the Wikipedia article needs to be updated.

[Judge Pen]

Bill Leonard's comments as posted on the Shaolin-Do Association's facebook page:


http://goo.gl/EYDo8

[MasterKiller]

Bill Leonard's comments as posted on the Shaolin-Do Association's facebook page:


http://goo.gl/EYDo8

What a dope.

[Judge Pen]

So how long till this thread gets merged with the Is SD for Real thread? Gene likes to keep the SD debate contained in one area.

[MasterKiller]

So how long till this thread gets merged with the Is SD for Real thread? Gene likes to keep the SD debate contained in one area.

It's my thread. It's staying put.

[MasterKiller]

Did you notice the word “Do” at the end? The martial arts community applauded him. Grandmaster Thé puts “Do” at the end of Shaolin and the same people cry fraud.

LOL. I guess mixing Mandarin and Cantonese is how they did it at Fukien Temple.

[bawang]

LOL. :D Why else do we train in a martial art?

cultural hijacking, desecration of religious icon, making a mockery of asians.

[Judge Pen]

cultural hijacking, desecration of religious icon, making a mockery of asians.

Chip on your shoulder? I bet you get mad when white guys marry asian women.

[bawang]

we perceive martial arts differently. you view it as a weird fetish to get off on, i view it with respect.

[Drake]

cultural hijacking, desecration of religious icon, making a mockery of asians.

This will be all you have left when we conquer you. Be thankful we at least lovingly mock your culture after assimilation, and not remove it.

Some subjugated cultures have no sense of perspective.

[bawang]

This will be all you have left when we conquer you. Be thankful we at least lovingly mock your culture after assimilation, and not remove it.

Some subjugated cultures have no sense of perspective.

we do to you like your ancestors treated the romans, give you plague and take over.

the swine flu is only the beginning.

[Judge Pen]

we perceive martial arts differently. you view it as a weird fetish to get off on, i view it with respect.

I view everything with respect until it is shown that it deserves less. Including you. You are making broad statements based on race that are unsupported.

[Drake]

we do to you like your ancestors treated the romans, give you plague and take over.

the swine flu is only the beginning.

Shut up and keep making our iPads.

[bawang]

your master made up forms and called it shaolin, made oturageous stories and connections about shaolin. thats not a broad statement, thats revealing the evil nature of shaolin do.

[Judge Pen]

So how does that mean that I, as a white guy, view martial arts as a weird fetish to get off on, but you, as an asian man, view it out of respect?

[Drake]

It's like watching Japanese tourists trying to be cowboys.

Which after the initial shock, I think is actually pretty cool in the end.

[Lucas]

Drake, if you havn't yet, you should totally watch Sukiyaki Western Django (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0906665/).

http://www.horrorphile.net/images/sukiyaki-western-django-hideaki-ito-and-yusuke-ise1.jpg

[taai gihk yahn]

Bill Leonard's comments as posted on the Shaolin-Do Association's facebook page:


http://goo.gl/EYDo8

quite a missive; the Apologist drinks long and deep from the communal Kool Aide...

[LaterthanNever]

"So how does that mean that I, as a white guy, view martial arts as a weird fetish to get off on, but you, as an asian man, view it out of respect?"

There are a few things going on here Judge:

1.) White..Asian..it doesn't matter. Sin Kwang The is of Asian extraction yet he certainly does not bring respect to the martial arts in the eyes of most of the opponents of his claims.

2.) If it hasn't settled in by now..it's when someone like Sin Kwang makes claims about the Shaolin temple and it's simply a matter of CONTACTING the actual temple that is still in existence and they are like "Huh? No such Grandmaster such as Su Kong Dai Djin",etc...and he(Sin Kwang) STILL sticks by such blatant falsehoods that there becomes a real issue.

3.) The longer a claim continues to exist which can be easily refuted..the most dishonor it heaps on Sin Kwang's shoulders. And this came to the proverbial head when the guy admits in court that he made his material up! Higher forms, lower forms..doesn't matter. Its bad enough he claims that his forms are questionable..but his other claims about Wolf face,etc. are the thing which(if some had their say in the matter) would ban Sin Kwang from even walking on the Shaolin temple grounds again.

[Yao Sing]

Bill Leonard's comments as posted on the Shaolin-Do Association's facebook page:


http://goo.gl/EYDo8

"When Grandmaster Thé began to teach in this country, he was aware that the long, complex forms of classical Shaolin would be difficult for the students to learn without some background training."

Ok, questions -

What became of the basic material SKT learned when he started?

Why was it neccessary for him to create beginner material?

Is SKT saying that us westerners are not evolved enough to handle such complex material without preliminary baby steps the he did not need?

How is it other Shaolin teachers are able to teach beginners without making up material?

[taai gihk yahn]

this, from the Wikipedia page, clearly written by a SD representative, should really tell u all:


"2007 – Grandmaster Sin Thé first teaches out Liu Xing Quan in Lexington, KY. He reveals that the Yang component is the final touches of Xing Yi system, hidden by the temple for hundreds of years because it involves the use of even greater and more complicated series of pressure point strikes. The Yin component is actually the top form of the Eagle Claw system and the first form of the Golden Snake style, which is his specialty.[citation needed] It also is the first style to really incorporate linked fa jin striking, whereas styles such as Chen-style t'ai chi ch'uan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang tend to use singular or dual fa jin strikes. Liu Xing routinely uses chains of eleven or more fa jin strikes to pressure points in series.[citation needed]"

if this heap of steaming doggie poo-poo, especially the last bit, doesn't simply scream BS fraud, I don't know what does...

[taai gihk yahn]

"When Grandmaster Thé began to teach in this country, he was aware that the long, complex forms of classical Shaolin would be difficult for the students to learn without some background training."

Ok, questions -

What became of the basic material SKT learned when he started?

Why was it neccessary for him to create beginner material?

Is SKT saying that us westerners are not evolved enough to handle such complex material without preliminary baby steps the he did not need?

How is it other Shaolin teachers are able to teach beginners without making up material?

enough with logic and reason; these things clearly have no place in a discussion of this nature;

[Judge Pen]

"So how does that mean that I, as a white guy, view martial arts as a weird fetish to get off on, but you, as an asian man, view it out of respect?"

There are a few things going on here Judge:

1.) White..Asian..it doesn't matter. Sin Kwang The is of Asian extraction yet he certainly does not bring respect to the martial arts in the eyes of most of the opponents of his claims.

2.) If it hasn't settled in by now..it's when someone like Sin Kwang makes claims about the Shaolin temple and it's simply a matter of CONTACTING the actual temple that is still in existence and they are like "Huh? No such Grandmaster such as Su Kong Dai Djin",etc...and he(Sin Kwang) STILL sticks by such blatant falsehoods that there becomes a real issue.

3.) The longer a claim continues to exist which can be easily refuted..the most dishonor it heaps on Sin Kwang's shoulders. And this came to the proverbial head when the guy admits in court that he made his material up! Higher forms, lower forms..doesn't matter. Its bad enough he claims that his forms are questionable..but his other claims about Wolf face,etc. are the thing which(if some had their say in the matter) would ban Sin Kwang from even walking on the Shaolin temple grounds again.

I'm not defending what Sin The admitted to in the deposition. I guess people are making me guilty by association because I trained in that art despite the fact that I focused on the martial intent behind the moves despite the origins and spent countless hours having respectful conversations about all of the criticisms here on the forum.

What rubbed me the wrong way about bwang's posts is he was making it a racial thing. That white people see martial arts as a fetish, but that only asian men like him really get the cultural relevance of martial arts. That's BS and I was calling him on it. But again, I know he's a troll and likes stirring the pot on these issues.

[bawang]

It's like watching Japanese tourists trying to be cowboys.

Which after the initial shock, I think is actually pretty cool in the end.

its like those japanese kids that dress up as nazis.

[Lucas]

"When Grandmaster Thé began to teach in this country, he was aware that the long, complex forms of classical Shaolin would be difficult for the students to learn without some background training."



lol@ that. xiao hong quan is pretty easy to teach beginners...

[bawang]

once again another lie.

legit kung fu has legit beginner forms, like five elements, 4 gates, 8 gates. etc.

[LaterthanNever]

Judge Pen,

See what I wrote for #2. If it's so easy to see what is known and verifyable about the Shaolin temple and the kung fu which had it's true genesis there and it's verifiable by both written historical documents..

AND...

You still choose to go with a guy who chooses to spread such fallacies..

It's like trying to argue with the Lyndon Larouche lackeys who put posters up of whoever is president of the US at the time with a little Hitler moustache and spread all sorts of fallacies about whoever the president may be. Pretty much anyone with a pulse and the ability to click a mouse on a laptop can verify that the "Larouche pac" folks are believing one helluva delusion.

Why not do YOURSELF favor and study some actual Shaolin kung fu(Northern Shaolin, Hung Kuen, Choy Li Fut, Wing Chun..whatever..but stop wasting your time!)

[bawang]

shaolin temple is the birthplace of chan buddhism. it demands the same respect as the temple mount, the vatican, or mecca. this is what those guys refuse to accept.

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen,

See what I wrote for #2. If it's so easy to see what is known and verifyable about the Shaolin temple and the kung fu which had it's true genesis there and it's verifiable by both written historical documents..

AND...

You still choose to go with a guy who chooses to spread such fallacies..

It's like trying to argue with the Lyndon Larouche lackeys who put posters up of whoever is president of the US at the time with a little Hitler moustache and spread all sorts of fallacies about whoever the president may be. Pretty much anyone with a pulse and the ability to click a mouse on a laptop can verify that the "Larouche pac" folks are believing one helluva delusion.

Why not do YOURSELF favor and study some actual Shaolin kung fu(Northern Shaolin, Hung Kuen, Choy Li Fut, Wing Chun..whatever..but stop wasting your time!)

You haven't been reading my posts. 1. I havent' trained in SD since 2009. 2. I started training in 1989 when I was 14. 3. At that time there were only three schools in my area to chose from and SD was the best option (still would be if I were to evaluate them knowing what I know now). When I started training, we never really discused lineage or history, just technique, form and strategy. I stayed because I could take what I learned and could apply it. I stopped because I got old and busy with work and family. I do not condone lies, but I was more concerned with what I put into the training, and what I could get out of it.

Would I have been a better martial artist had I the opportunity to train at a different school? Maybe, but I'll never know. I can say that I never really relied on any misrepresentations to motivate or encourage my training. But I know people that did and I feel worse for them (especially those that try to make a living teaching SD).

[Judge Pen]

shaolin temple is the birthplace of chan buddhism. it demands the same respect as the temple mount, the vatican, or mecca. this is what those guys refuse to accept.

I just don't see your point that by I studied an art that claimed, falsey it seems, origins to a shaolin temple (a southern temple that may not have even existed) I am being disrespectful to one's religion (especially when I was more concerned with the practice of the art as opposed to its lineage). It's not like I made up the stories myself. Do you have to practice chan buddhism to be a respectful martial artist?

[bawang]

shaolin boxing holds religious significance, because shaolin monks combine buddhism and boxing. to shaolin monks religion and fighting are one and the same. thats why shaolin do commits religious desecration.


Do you have to practice chan buddhism to be a respectful martial artist?

you just have to not be a fraud or support frauds.

[LaterthanNever]

"Bill Leonard's comments as posted on the Shaolin-Do Association's facebook page:


http://goo.gl/EYDo8"

This may be the longest I've ever laughed in one sitting in my entire life..EVER!


JP,

I've read most of your posts. It's commendable that you picked what you felt was the best option at the time, I surely would have picked what I felt was the best option at the time.

But you will "never know"? Are you in prison in Kentucky, Tennessee or wherever you may be residing in now? And prohibited from finding another school? Anywhere?

Interesting..

Surely if you dig enough..there has got to be some other schools..

[Scott R. Brown]

its like those japanese kids that dress up as nazis.

Not really, the Nazi's and the Japanese were allies during WWII and they were both extremely cruel. So, it is not really like that at all!:p

[Judge Pen]

shaolin boxing holds religious significance, because shaolin monks combine buddhism and boxing. to shaolin monks religion and fighting are one and the same. thats why shaolin do commits religious desecration.

There's a bit of a logical leap there. I agree that shaolin monks combined buddhism with boxing. It is also true that the temple became a refuge for former thiefs, bandits and soilders that contributed to the martial development of the shaolin arts. But you do not have to be a monk, or a practicing buddhist, to learn the martial techniques. Nor does learning teachniques, without practicing the religion, make you a hertic or guilty of desecration.

[LaterthanNever]

JudgePen,


Psst!! ;)

http://www.wahlumknoxville.com

If you couldn't learn better kung fu at a sifu certified under Grandmaster Chan Poi..I'd eat my left AND right shoes!!

[Judge Pen]

But you will "never know"? Are you in prison in Kentucky, Tennessee or wherever you may be residing in now? And prohibited from finding another school? Anywhere?

Interesting..

Surely if you dig enough..there has got to be some other schools..

What I'm saying is that I can't go back in time and chose a different path. Now I practice a few of the forms and excercises that I find relevant to my personal abilities and philosophy, but I don't have the time or inclination to train like I did before. Marriage, children, law practice etc. will do that to you.

[bawang]

Nor does learning teachniques, without practicing the religion, make you a hertic or guilty of desecration.

learning FAKE techniques makes you guilty of desecration.

What I'm saying is that I can't go back in time and chose a different path. Now I practice a few of the forms and excercises that I find relevant to my personal abilities and philosophy, but I don't have the time or inclination to train like I did before. Marriage, children, law practice etc. will do that to you.

you know what sin the did is wrong, and he robbed you and many of your colleagues of their time and money.

you need to face and accept this and overcome the years of indoctrination, instead of trying to justify and defend the time you spent there.

[Judge Pen]

JudgePen,


Psst!! ;)

http://www.wahlumknoxville.com

If you couldn't learn better kung fu at a sifu certified under Grandmaster Chan Poi..I'd eat my left AND right shoes!!

I've trained with a couple of former wah lum people and meet a few of the students at that school. I wasn't interested in Wah Lum, but the people I met were pleasent enough. I did start training in Aikido because I was not interested in learning any new forms, just applications, but stopped for the reasons I've mentioned earlier.

[Judge Pen]

learning FAKE techniques makes you guilty of desecration.

In western religion, we have this thing about not being judgmental of other people's religions or beliefs. Something about removing the plank from your own eye before complaining about the speck in your neighbors. Do buddhists practice that philophy too?

The technique was real, it just wasn't real shaolin. As I wasn't intending to practice buddhism I don't think I was being disrespectful. It might be different if I was telling the lie instead of making techniques work for me.

[Judge Pen]

you know what sin the did is wrong, and he robbed you and many of your colleagues of their time and money.

you need to face and accept this and overcome the years of indoctrination, instead of trying to justify and defend the time you spent there.

I do know what he did was wrong. I'm not defending him. I was never indoctrinated. People making excuses and re-writing the deposition are the indoctrinated ones. I'm being honest that what I learned wasn't what it was represented, but I still received good training from it. If it were called "kung tao" or some "blend of Chinese, Japanese and Indonesian martial art where the head teacher created additional techniques" then this debate would focus on the efficacy of the techniqe and training and not the origins.

[bawang]

In western religion, we have this thing about not being judgmental of other people's religions or beliefs. Something about removing the plank from your own eye before complaining about the speck in your neighbors. Do buddhists practice that philophy too?



jesus and his students tell us to point out the wrongs of our brothers even if it makes them hate us. i am obeying jesus.

[Scott R. Brown]

learning FAKE techniques makes you guilty of desecration


Not learning them, TEACHING them!

Do not hold the student responsible for the behavior of the teacher!

[bawang]

students are just as guilty if they know the truth and dont care.

[Scott R. Brown]

students are just as guilty if they know the truth and dont care.

Being told the truth by someone you do not know and who has not earned your respect and trust is not the same thing as being told something by someone you do trust, even if they are trustworthy and one's instructor is not.

Students will always tend to believe their instructor, who they have and emotional attachment too, than a stranger that poo poo's all over their belief system!

[Judge Pen]

students are just as guilty if they know the truth and dont care.


shaolin do students are in denial. you spend decades lovingly, carefully obeying and practicing, bow down and kiss the ass of sin the, but when it comes to real shaolin that doesnt matter at all, im taking this all too seriously.

I learned a martial art. I never kissed anyone's ass.

[bawang]

.

Students will always tend to believe their instructor, who they have and emotional attachment too, than a stranger that poo poo's all over their belief system!

this is the internet. i cant take him to dinner, then take him to edge of forest inside van and do bang bang bang in the anoos.

[Judge Pen]

this is the internet. i cant take him to dinner, then take him to edge of forest inside van and do bang bang bang in the anoos.

Yep, you're a real internet warrior. Good for you.

And Jesus said he who is without sin cast the first stone. You've been throwing a lot of stones Bwang.

[bawang]

i follow chinese jesus. he says its ok in my dream.

[Scott R. Brown]

this is the internet. i cant take him to dinner, then take him to edge of forest inside van and do bang bang bang in the anoos.

I guess you can only dream about it huh!:eek::p

[Drake]

JP... you would probably be better off just ceasing fire at this point. Westerners don't understand the Chinese, nor should you be expected to. You just made the big international no-no of contrasting Chinese culture to western religion.

I've worked with Chinese, Europeans (just about all of the EU in some form), Brits, Koreans, Pakistanis, Egyptians, Afghans, Romanians, Iraqis, and Australians. Even the ones who fall under the umbrella of "western civilization" have key differences irreconcilable with one another. To compare your way of thinking with a culture so different is a lesson in futility.

[bawang]

this is perfectly understandable. he is saying he knows sin the scammed him and his friends, but he liked the cardio.

[Judge Pen]

JP... you would probably be better off just ceasing fire at this point. Westerners don't understand the Chinese, nor should you be expected to. You just made the big international no-no of contrasting Chinese culture to western religion.

I've worked with Chinese, Europeans (just about all of the EU in some form), Brits, Koreans, Pakistanis, Egyptians, Afghans, Romanians, Iraqis, and Australians. Even the ones who fall under the umbrella of "western civilization" have key differences irreconcilable with one another. To compare your way of thinking with a culture so different is a lesson in futility.

You're probably right. I merely asked if there was a similar concept of "not judging your neighbor" in buddhist beliefs. I just find it hard to believe that one can be so aggressively judgmental while discussing the philosophies of a religion. I'm not pretending to understand the differences or holding one above another.

[bawang]

there a differnce between judgemental, and just stating the truth.

its like a pedophile asking me not to judge him because he rape kids.



i think you made a mistake thinking i was blindly judging from my opinion. i am quoting from ancient martial art manuals and the views of ancient masters on frauds.

[Judge Pen]

this is perfectly understandable. he is saying he knows sin the scammed him and his friends, but he liked the cardio.

More than the cardio, the martial technique. It doesn't justify the lie, but I wasn't paying for the stories so it didn't affect the value I find in what I learned. For those that trained because they thought it was real, then I feel bad for them too.

[Yao Sing]

13 pages so far, still a long way to go to reach 900! :eek:

[Judge Pen]

there a differnce between judgemental, and just stating the truth.

its like a pedophile asking me not to judge him because he rape kids.

Not even in the same universe. Your analogies are way off base.

[bawang]

in chinese warrior culture, stealing someones lineage, history and lore is a serious offence. in ancient times it would have led to vendetta and the killing of the fraud and all his students. the analogy is spot on.

in ancient china, if you street perform on someones spot without permission, he would kill you. you dont understand what is kung fu, or martial morality.

[David Jamieson]

If you impersonate a decorated veteran, that is a criminal offense. That is an analogy that fits.

[Oso]

JP, like Scott said, probably best to not spar with bawang...I still think he's Ross but I could be wrong...

I have to say that sometimes, when you get the correct perspective on a thing, it's only obvious that it's a big lie...which you already know. There is no real need to justify yourself here. Especially if SD is in your past.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

this is the internet. i cant take him to dinner, then take him to edge of forest inside van and do bang bang bang in the anoos.

You could use your Helicopter.

[Lucas]

You could use your Helicopter.

I crashed it last time I borrowed it to pick up chicks.

[Judge Pen]

JP, like Scott said, probably best to not spar with bawang...I still think he's Ross but I could be wrong...

I have to say that sometimes, when you get the correct perspective on a thing, it's only obvious that it's a big lie...which you already know. There is no real need to justify yourself here. Especially if SD is in your past.

Ah Ross. Enough said.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I crashed it last time I borrowed it to pick up chicks.

So this is the real reason why he never met me in the park to fight at midnight that one time?

[taai gihk yahn]

JP, like Scott said, probably best to not spar with bawang...I still think he's Ross but I could be wrong...

I have to say that sometimes, when you get the correct perspective on a thing, it's only obvious that it's a big lie...which you already know. There is no real need to justify yourself here. Especially if SD is in your past.


Ah Ross. Enough said.

he's not Ross - I've communicated w bawang off-forum (he's actually one of my FB friends, Matt, u might b able to even figure out who he his...);

Ross hasn't been on this forum in months - he now regularly posts over at imacombat.forumotion.com/ (it's a neat forum - the discussions are substantive, and they moderate very actively for trolls; thy also don't let you in unless u use your real name and give them background on who u r first)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

he's not Ross - I've communicated w bawang off-forum (he's actually one of my FB friends, Matt, u might b able to even figure out who he his...);

Ross hasn't been on this forum in months - he now regularly posts over at imacombat.forumotion.com/ (it's a neat forum - the discussions are substantive, and they moderate very actively for trolls; thy also don't let you in unless u use your real name and give them background on who u r first)

Of course you are going to say that Silly! It's well know that you are also Ross!

[Scott R. Brown]

he's not Ross - I've communicated w bawang off-forum (he's actually one of my FB friends, Matt, u might b able to even figure out who he his...);

Ross hasn't been on this forum in months - he now regularly posts over at imacombat.forumotion.com/ (it's a neat forum - the discussions are substantive, and they moderate very actively for trolls; thy also don't let you in unless u use your real name and give them background on who u r first)

What if you don't know who you really are?:confused:

[bawang]

Ross hasn't been on this forum in months - he now regularly posts over at imacombat.forumotion.com/ (it's a neat forum - the discussions are substantive, and they moderate very actively for trolls; thy also don't let you in unless u use your real name and give them background on who u r first)

thanks for telling me my fren. now i can read more inspiring words from the mighty david ross.

i pray to chinese jesus he one day come back to this forum, he is a great hero like guan gong, or george bush.

[Yao Sing]

I think I might be Ross, how can I tell? Is there a test or something? What's the treatment, can I be cured?

Wait, what were we talking about again?

[Scott R. Brown]

thanks for telling me my fren. now i can read more inspiring words from the mighty david ross.

i pray to chinese jesus he one day come back to this forum, he is a great hero like guan gong, or george bush.

or George Foreman,

or George Washington,

or George Washington Carver,

or George S. Patton,

or St. George and the Dragon,

or George of the Jungle!!

[Yao Sing]

It doesn't matter if it's really Ross, it's the spirit and philosophy of Ross that makes it real for me. That's all that counts, not the accusations of being fake Ross.

[Oso]

he's not Ross - I've communicated w bawang off-forum (he's actually one of my FB friends, Matt, u might b able to even figure out who he his...);

Ross hasn't been on this forum in months - he now regularly posts over at imacombat.forumotion.com/ (it's a neat forum - the discussions are substantive, and they moderate very actively for trolls; thy also don't let you in unless u use your real name and give them background on who u r first)

fair enough...i said i could be wrong :) now, time to peruse your friends list

[Scott R. Brown]

fair enough...i said i could be wrong :) now, time to peruse your friends list

I just did that!

Hmmmmmmm! ROSS is one of his FB friends!!!

COINCIDENCE?????:confused::confused:

I THINK NOT!!

[Oso]

I just did that!

Hmmmmmmm! ROSS is one of his FB friends!!!

COINCIDENCE?????:confused::confused:

I THINK NOT!!

you got too many friends...some pretty cute lady friends at that :)

i'm guessing it's gene...

oh, wait...not you Scott...Chris...ok, obviously time for bed. only two more days left on the old job and i need my beauty sleep so i don't choke the boss out sometime in the next two days...

[Jimbo]

In western religion, we have this thing about not being judgmental of other people's religions or beliefs. Something about removing the plank from your own eye before complaining about the speck in your neighbors. Do buddhists practice that philophy too?

The technique was real, it just wasn't real shaolin. As I wasn't intending to practice buddhism I don't think I was being disrespectful. It might be different if I was telling the lie instead of making techniques work for me.

Some of the most judgmental people I've ever met anywhere have been Christians right here.

[bawang]

i think ill judge some more. i judge him guilty of misquoting sacred text.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Calling a fraud and a lie a fraud and a lie is not judging, it's state a fact.
If someone admits that they made something up and passed it off as something that it wasn't ie: NOT made up, then that is fraud and an admittance of lying.

[Judge Pen]

Some of the most judgmental people I've ever met anywhere have been Christians right here.

You're right there. But they should know better.

[Judge Pen]

Calling a fraud and a lie a fraud and a lie is not judging, it's state a fact.
If someone admits that they made something up and passed it off as something that it wasn't ie: NOT made up, then that is fraud and an admittance of lying.

I wasn't talking about what Sin The did. Facts are facts. Bawang and I were having a discussion about his opinion that I was desecrating shaolin and Chan Buddhism because I trained in SD in the past and how I feel that the techniques had valid martial value even though they are not authentic shaolin kung fu forms.

[Orion Paximus]

I hate this thread with my life

[kwaichang]

Ultimately it is a personal thing but the morals and right and wrong of that person is different for all, It has been said that Sin The used his lies for self gain and that is true. No one was hurt due to them unless they originally wanted the REAL Shaolin Kung Fu. Others gained what they gained , fitness , health , endurance and respect . Yes respect for the Shaolin Temple in China. I have always respected Chinese MA and wanted to learn Shaolin Kung Fu. Still do SD hasnt changed that. I love Martial arts. and always will. SD cant change that. Many who have heard of the Shaolin Monastery would not have , had they not done or seen SD. So those that are offended need to look at it , in my opinion in a less personal way. If you are offended ask why , did it hurt your business or help it? Probably helped it if it wasnt real. You dont care that someone studied an art that isnt what it claims to be. No skin off your nose right.? So any way you look at it only those that did it and did not get what they wanted are the ones that are hurt. Its like that with any product Right? any way KC:D

[taai gihk yahn]

look - the guy has misrepresented himself, brokering on the "mystique" of Shaolin to help sell his product; he played up the "esoteric Asian" schtick in order to get people to think they were doing something special and unique - all his claims of being "the only" this or that all fed this directly; and he invents this ridiculous, unverifiable story to support the fiction;

then he basically makes up the forms - not just the one he admitted to: clearly all the forms are made up by him (except the ones he just took out of books, of course);

and the organization is basically functioning out of a cult-like mentality - cult-of-personality and all that;

you can say all u want about the fighting skills u may hav acquired - but let's be honest - the majority of people sign up for SD in order to get the Shaolin piece, including the "secret" fighting skills - no one is joining just to get "good basics" - they are there for the secret decoder ring material;

the whole thing is a scam, and if u got something that you feel is valuable from it, good for you, but fundamentally, by ur own admission, the main reason you joined has been shown to be untrue (and that is what people hav been stating here for years);

spin it all u want; it's still "fraud salad" (to quote our portly Canadian Taoist member...)

[kwaichang]

look - the guy has misrepresented himself, brokering on the "mystique" of Shaolin to help sell his product; he played up the "esoteric Asian" schtick in order to get people to think they were doing something special and unique - all his claims of being "the only" this or that all fed this directly; and he invents this ridiculous, unverifiable story to support the fiction;

then he basically makes up the forms - not just the one he admitted to: clearly all the forms are made up by him (except the ones he just took out of books, of course);

and the organization is basically functioning out of a cult-like mentality - cult-of-personality and all that;

you can say all u want about the fighting skills u may hav acquired - but let's be honest - the majority of people sign up for SD in order to get the Shaolin piece, including the "secret" fighting skills - no one is joining just to get "good basics" - they are there for the secret decoder ring material;

the whole thing is a scam, and if u got something that you feel is valuable from it, good for you, but fundamentally, by ur own admission, the main reason you joined has been shown to be untrue (and that is what people hav been stating here for years);

spin it all u want; it's still "fraud salad" (to quote our portly Canadian Taoist member...)

Yes U ARE RIGHT but being the optimist I am trying to make Lemonade out of Lemons and want to try to see something positive out of all this. KC

[Judge Pen]

That's exactly how I would describe you KC. Optomist. :D

[bawang]

his opinion that I was desecrating shaolin and Chan Buddhism because I trained in SD in the past

you trained sd in the past and try to justify it.. you said despite the lie you had a great time. a happy time.

Yes U ARE RIGHT

thats all i wanted to hear. you may go now.

[kwaichang]

I said TAAI was right not You Bawang ? LOL so when you can tell me how u really feel U may leave with me LOL KC:)

[Judge Pen]

you trained sd in the past and try to justify it.. you said despite the lie you had a great time. a happy time.


I also enjoyed playing football in high school even though my team was not all that good. Is that the same thing as ****ing on Lombardi's grave?

[bawang]

I also enjoyed playing football in high school even though my team was not all that good. Is that the same thing as ****ing on Lombardi's grave?

if your football coach pressured everyone to take steroids, and raped some players like that guy on the news, then yes.

[Judge Pen]

if your football coach pressured everyone to take steroids, and raped some players like that guy on the news, then yes.

You should change your name to hyperbole. :D

[bawang]

how is this hyperbole? sin the mentally and spiritually molested you and took away your manhood. FACT.

[Judge Pen]

how is this hyperbole? sin the mentally and spiritually molested you and took away your manhood. FACT.

Nope. But thanks for making outrageous comparisons as it actually weakens the credibility of your arguments. One only has power over you if you allow them to. If I cared about SD's origins, or tried to make a living teaching the art, then your argument would have some creadence. I trained. I learned how to apply what I learned and was comporable to people of legitimate arts of the same training. I enjoyed my time and got out of it what I put into it. I left on my own terms and not because of a lawsuit or controversy.

[bawang]

you feel happy giving a fraud money to learn his lies. thats how sin the mentally dominates you. you are his woman.

if you say sin thes name backwards, its the sin. coincidence? or demonic influence?

[Judge Pen]

you feel happy giving a fraud money to learn his lies. thats how sin the mentally dominates you. you are his woman.

if you say sin thes name backwards, its the sin. coincidence? or demonic influence?

I learned a martial art not the lies. That's what you can't grasp. To you the origin is important. That's fine but it was not the reason I trained.

Actually if you say sin the's name backwards its "seht nis"

[bawang]

if its made up nonsense and arm flailing, its not really "martial" or "art".

[Judge Pen]

if its made up nonsense and arm flailing, its not really "martial" or "art".

I agree with this conditional statement. I would add to that and say that I've seen a lot of people in SD do their material that poorly. All I can say is I got out of it what I put into it and made SD work for me on a martial level.

[Lucas]

i think sin the is a great man. he is a poor asian man who came to america and dominated the white people with his qi. he got all the monies and made himself famous. sin the 1 white people 0

[bawang]

he didnt bang the white wimmins with the yellow hairs. he is failure.

[Lucas]

how do you know? i think he maybe did.

[kwaichang]

OK Bawang is officially Paranoid and Psychtzo. Nuff Said KC

[Judge Pen]

OK Bawang is officially Paranoid and Psychtzo. Nuff Said KC

Nah, he's someone having fun with the anonymity of the internet.

[bawang]

say it to my face. where you live?

[Judge Pen]

say it to my face. where you live?

Knoxville Tennessee (as indicated in my profile). My name is Ben Mullins.

Your turn.

[bawang]

my name steve. steve johnson.

i am on my way right now in my helicopter. right now babby, right now. what street you live?

[Judge Pen]

my name steve. steve johnson.

i am on my way right now in my helicopter. right now babby, right now. what street you live?

I'm at work "steve johnson" 550 West Main Street.

[Judge Pen]

I'm at work "steve johnson" 550 West Main Street.

I think there's a helipad on top of the building. If not I'm sure the University of Tennessee wouldn't mind you using their football field. It's just down the street from my office.

Hey, now you know enough about me to friend me on facebook!

[bawang]

many busy. busy horse

BUSY

[Scott R. Brown]

Calling a fraud and a lie a fraud and a lie is not judging, it's state a fact.
If someone admits that they made something up and passed it off as something that it wasn't ie: NOT made up, then that is fraud and an admittance of lying.

Oh...........Well.....

If you are going to use reasoning, then you have destroyed the purpose of this whole thread!!

What EVER will we do to waste our time now???:(:(

[Lucas]

i heard one time sin the played basket ball with the harlem globetrotters and beat them all while in golden rooster stance.

[Scott R. Brown]

i heard one time sin the played basket ball with the harlem globetrotters and beat them all while in golden rooster stance.

I thought that was Shaolin Soccer?

[Lucas]

Hey, did you know, when Sin The was a young man, he was asked to kill a lion that was terrorizing a village? This lion had a hide that was impervious to any weapon – so he had to strangled it to death. He used its own claws to cut off the skin. Thereafter he wore the pelt of the lion as a cloak, with its gaping mouth as a helmet.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hey, did you know, when Sin The was a young man, he was asked to kill a lion that was terrorizing a village? This lion had a hide that was impervious to any weapon – so he had to strangled it to death. He used its own claws to cut off the skin. Thereafter he wore the pelt of the lion as a cloak, with its gaping mouth as a helmet.

I thought that was Hercules, or was it Samson?

Maybe it was both!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I thought that was Hercules, or was it Samson?

Maybe it was both!

Who do you think they learned from?

[Lucas]

No you are wrong Scott. That was the first task formally known as, The 10 Labors of Sin The.

The second labour was to destroy a multi-headed monster called the Hydra which lurked in the swamps, devouring incautious passers-by. Sin The grappled with the monster, but as soon as he cut off one of its heads, two grew to replace it. To make matters worse, a large crab came scuttling out of the swamp and nipped at the feet of Sin The. Angrily he stamped on the crab and called for help to his charioteer, who burned the stumps as each head was lopped to prevent more heads growing. Heracles gutted the Hydra and dipped his arrows in its poisonous blood.

[Lucas]

For his next two labours, Sin The was ordered to catch elusive animals: a deer with golden horns, and a ferocious boar. But Perhaps the most famous labour is his fifth, the cleaning of the dung-filled stables of Seth Low, Mayor of Brooklyn. Sin The struck a bargain with the Mayor that he would clean out the stables in a single day in return for one-tenth of the Mayor’s cattle. Sin The accomplished the task by diverting two rivers. But Seth, claiming he had been tricked, renounced the bargain and banished Sin The from Brooklyn.

[Drake]

Sin The killed John Connor.

I win. :D

[Scott R. Brown]

Thank God for "Lucas, The Keeper of Lore"!:cool:

Without him these feats of the past would be lost to future generations!