The secret to Wing Chun

[jonlee]

The secret to most Chinese martial arts is that it has to have a sense of secrecy in order for it to thrive. Since most of my experience with Chinese martial arts comes from Wing Chun, I will use Wing Chun as an example. I’ve been studying Wing Chun for over 10 years. Every Wing Chun school that I have been too, gives off an atmosphere that their Wing Chun is better or more original or more traditional or more superior. In a sense, it is more secretive and only taught to loyal students or indoor disciples. The Sifu’s I have encountered subconsciously re-enforces that he will share this secret with all us if we remain loyal to him and his lineage. For the past 10 years, I’ve never learned anything I would consider to be “secret, original, traditional or superior ”Wing Chun." Is it because I wasn’t a loyal student? Is it because I didn’t pay fees? Not true at all. I’ve remained loyal and paid all my fees. I did things in class and outside of class that was not even related to Wing Chun for all my Sifu’s. I’ve even posted comments on martial art forums for them even though I didn’t agree with what they wanted me to say to the internet public. Till this day, I still have not learned the secret Wing Chun that my all Sifu’s subconsciously portrays in their school. The only secret that I have learned over this 10 year experience is that, if someday, I decide to teach Wing Chun and want to make money and retain students, I have to do what these Sifu’s did to me and that is to keep all students wandering that there is a “secret, original, traditional or superior” Wing Chun; and if they want to learn it; they will have to remain loyal and pay their fees over a long period of time. This is just my personal experience. Sorry if I offended anyone. All thoughts are welcomed.

[imperialtaichi]

You are in the wrong school, my friend.

While an instructor has every right to make money to earn his living, if his motivation is money and control, he will NEVER teach you right.

My IYTC teacher (Wei) and my KL22 teacher (Leung) never ever talk to me about money. They are alwys keen to see me and show me things. Yes, I give them red pockets, but just token amounts to show appreciations.

Master Wan of Practical Wing Chun HK, even tho he's not my teacher, and he knew I do Kulo, still shared his knowledge and never charged me a cent! (it gets complicated, I can buy him dinner or cook him a roast, but I can't give him red pockets as he is not my Sifu.)

My advice, the best teachers are not movitated by money. Be honest with them, be sincere, be honourable, be true; and they will teach you things unreservedly. But if you has an ounce of deceitfulness in you heart, they will see through and you will get nothing.

No knowledge is worth sacrificing your integrity for.

Cheers.

[imperialtaichi]

Another example: a doctor who's motivation is to help people will still earn a decent living. A doctor's who's motivation is to cheat as much money out of his clients as he can, may lead a short term gain, but karma will eventually catch up with him.

If you ever want to open a school, what type of Sifu would you like to be? Your choice, your karma.

[Shang-Chi]

I've often wondered why this is... I've come to the conclusion that no one is hiding secrets. They just don't really know their system that well so they hide behind the "secret" knowledge that they haven't really acquired.

[Happy Tiger]

At least in the Ip Man clans, there does seem to be an ongoing 'schism' if you will umungst the houses. Once hot, now just mostly left alone. This has lead to alot of that 'original' 'traditional' 'secret' or privilaged house stuff. I'm enjoying the exposure and lessons of non Hong Kong VT from an anthropological perspective as it tells much about the curious nature of Ip Man VT ,it's houses and our secret, superior ways and differences.
I wonder, do the non HK VT styles have variations and politics of 'original' and 'superior' as well?The sharing and wide ability to observe and learn from each other is the best thing to keep the VT family together and dispell secrets.

[LoneTiger108]

The secret to most Chinese martial arts is that it has to have a sense of secrecy in order for it to thrive.

Really? Not so much these days I think because many new students tend to be able to 'see' if what is happening in front of them is real or not. As for those who can't, then find a friend who can and don't be drawn into all this 'secrecy' cr4p!


The only secret that I have learned over this 10 year experience is that, if someday, I decide to teach Wing Chun and want to make money and retain students, I have to do what these Sifu’s did to me and that is to keep all students wandering that there is a “secret, original, traditional or superior” Wing Chun; and if they want to learn it; they will have to remain loyal and pay their fees over a long period of time. This is just my personal experience. Sorry if I offended anyone. All thoughts are welcomed.

Firstly, if you decide to teach I would hope that your teacher supports you and you don't end up just doing it because you think you can! Secondly, you have already adopted a business mind to your plans, which imho is so very wrong and has no place in Wing Chun teaching.

The word I have in mind is 'profit' and if that is your driving force then good luck to you. It works for the more commercial Martial Arts, but I have always held the belief that Wing Chun is a family based system, and that is really how we should maintain it. Business and family is not a good mix FME and personally I cringe at the thought of a Sifu taking money from students over such long periods of time.

I have actually trained with these guys, some with more than 10 years paying fees and learning, and they are 'empty'. Very happy, but empty all the same.

My Sifu used to say "An individual can not 'decide' that they want to learn Wing Chun, Wing Chun decides who she herself wants to learn lol!" he then taught me a secret handshake with tea ceremony and led me through a golden doorway to where I trained with 'dead people' until I lost my marbles... ;) :D:D

[jesper]

There are no secrets to kung fu only hard work.

[hulkout]

If that is the way your sifu teaches, then leave his school. Anyone who tells you about secrets in Wing Chun is a scammer. My sifu was discussing this exact same topic a few weeks ago. Basically he said that the only "secret" in Wing Chun is to drill the basics over and over again until it becomes as natural for you as walking and breathing. At the most advanced level, there is no technique. Your body simply reacts by covering your centerline, attacking his centerline, having a solid understanding of distance and timing. These are concepts you learn within the first few days of training. Some students are in a hurry to learn Biu Jee when what they don't understand is that if they don't have the basics down, nothing will work at all.

[Dragonzbane76]

The secret.....

There is no magical mythical text book dogma that will make u better. The only thing that will is dedication and self discipline. And i didnt even charge for that tid bit of knowledge. :rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

The secret.....

There is no magical mythical text book dogma that will make u better. The only thing that will is dedication and self discipline. And i didnt even charge for that tid bit of knowledge. :rolleyes:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
No secrets from a good sifu. My Fong sifu explains things clearly in seminars for students at his Tucson school. Things may seem obtuse because it takes time for the skills to take hold.
One needs some uncommon sense at times.

joy chaudhuri

[wolf3001]

I don't like to teach much because im still learning but I often show my students advanced techniques depending on the situation. I wouldn't be teaching Biu Jee to someone just starting out but I do show some things to certain people based on the situation we are in. I am teaching a new woman who wanted to know some no nonsense self defense and I incorporated some more advanced stuff with her. I don't believe in secrets I teach a form and the application of the movements more or less at the same time. If someone asks about a specific situation we usually talk about it as a class at length and go through what ever methods we feel are best regardless of how advanced the techniques may be. I was teaching a couple guys the dummy form last night one is a bit behind the others. I told him to do as the others were and he asked if he should I told him why not your never going to stop practicing this. If you forget this by next class it's no big deal and I will show you again eventually you will get it. I believe it should be taught at a persons own speed a persons rank doesn't mean much to me. If they learn a form or technique and remember it properly why not advance them a bit. Most of the guys I help train know more than they need to for their current level I don't hold them back and they know where they need work. I dislike ranks your skill has little to do with a colored sash.

[WingChunABQ]

I spent many years with a sifu who had this kind of mystical, secretive thinking. Later I changed schools and trained under a sifu who was incredibly clear, logical and open with his knowledge. It was like a breath of fresh air.

As others have stated, the only secret is hard work and time spent developing one's skill.

[YouKnowWho]

the only secret is hard work and time spent developing one's skill.
It's much more complicate than that. The secret is "how to train?" and "what to look for?" You can train hard and spend a lot of time but if you don't know the proper training method, you won't be able to reach to your goal. Let's use the "human flag" training as an example.

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/9490/humanflag.jpg

The secret of this training is to

- "push" on the bottom hand and "pull" on the upper hand.
- start with your most powerful arm on the bottom.
- start with your body to be 30 degree upward and gradulate change into 45 degree upward, and then to make your body to be parallel to the ground.

After you have known those "secret", it doesn't worth a penny. But if you don't know it, you will feel lost in your training. Without following these simple guidelines, it's very hard to even lift yourself up in the air. "Hard" training is not the same as "smart" training and that's why we all need teachers.

[YouKnowWho]

TCMA is like to find the right key to open the right lock. If the key is wrong, the lock won't open. Of course you can use hammer to smash that lock. It just need more brute force.

For example, what the best counter for a front bear hug? Some guy may say that his opponent's bear hug is so strong that he can't break it. Why do you want to break his powerful arms for? That's like to use a hammer to smash the lock and force it to open. If you are stronger than your opponent, it may work. If not, it won't.

The "secret" of the TCMA is "Where's the right key to open this lock?"

[WingChunABQ]

"Hard" training is not the same as "smart" training and that's why we all need teachers.


Good point, but it's also a given.

The problem is when martial arts teachers try to pass themselves off as gurus, masters of spiritual knowledge. Worse is when they treat their martial arts a secret, occultish knowledge. That is straight up snake oil.

[lance]

The secret to most Chinese martial arts is that it has to have a sense of secrecy in order for it to thrive. Since most of my experience with Chinese martial arts comes from Wing Chun, I will use Wing Chun as an example. I’ve been studying Wing Chun for over 10 years. Every Wing Chun school that I have been too, gives off an atmosphere that their Wing Chun is better or more original or more traditional or more superior. In a sense, it is more secretive and only taught to loyal students or indoor disciples. The Sifu’s I have encountered subconsciously re-enforces that he will share this secret with all us if we remain loyal to him and his lineage. For the past 10 years, I’ve never learned anything I would consider to be “secret, original, traditional or superior ”Wing Chun." Is it because I wasn’t a loyal student? Is it because I didn’t pay fees? Not true at all. I’ve remained loyal and paid all my fees. I did things in class and outside of class that was not even related to Wing Chun for all my Sifu’s. I’ve even posted comments on martial art forums for them even though I didn’t agree with what they wanted me to say to the internet public. Till this day, I still have not learned the secret Wing Chun that my all Sifu’s subconsciously portrays in their school. The only secret that I have learned over this 10 year experience is that, if someday, I decide to teach Wing Chun and want to make money and retain students, I have to do what these Sifu’s did to me and that is to keep all students wandering that there is a “secret, original, traditional or superior” Wing Chun; and if they want to learn it; they will have to remain loyal and pay their fees over a long period of time. This is just my personal experience. Sorry if I offended anyone. All thoughts are welcomed.

There is no secret to wing chun , it ' s just pure learning , training and making yourself better as times goes by for you . Most importantly being able to make it useful for you in a situation where self defense is the main concern . Your sifu was just pulling your legs , but jonlee since you already spent 10 years of you life with that sifu , are you a sifu now ? Well your sifu should be able to make his own decision if you can become a sifu or not under him . Jonlee PM if you can .

[Lee Chiang Po]

JonLee, these guys are yanking your leg. There are secrets in Wing Chun, but you only learn them after you have proven yourself over the years. Most never get to learn them. The reason they stay secret is because of some feeling of loyalty or tradition, but I am not so driven. I will do anything for money. I know all the secrets of Wing Chun. All of them. And for a price I will make them all known to you, but only one at a time. However, I must be convinced that you are worthy and serious about your Wing Chun. Send me large sums of money every month until I know for certain and I will then teach you the secrets. And yes, I can teach them over the internet. I am sure these guys will comment, but pay them no mind.

[jonlee]

I've often wondered why this is... I've come to the conclusion that no one is hiding secrets. They just don't really know their system that well so they hide behind the "secret" knowledge that they haven't really acquired.

These days, I am starting to agree with your statement. My experience is mostly with TWC, but a few fellow Wing Chun practitioners out there say that Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is even more secretive.

[nasmedicine]

My advice, the best teachers are not movitated by money. Be honest with them, be sincere, be honourable, be true; and they will teach you things unreservedly. But if you has an ounce of deceitfulness in you heart, they will see through and you will get nothing.

No knowledge is worth sacrificing your integrity for.

Cheers.

Agree 100%

[nasmedicine]

I've often wondered why this is... I've come to the conclusion that no one is hiding secrets. They just don't really know their system that well so they hide behind the "secret" knowledge that they haven't really acquired.

However, there are a lot of very knowledgeable/talented sifu's out there (not just wing chun wise) that are 100 % holding back knowledge for whatever reason. No matter, how much you pay them.

[nasmedicine]

The secret to most Chinese martial arts is that it has to have a sense of secrecy in order for it to thrive. Since most of my experience with Chinese martial arts comes from Wing Chun, I will use Wing Chun as an example. I’ve been studying Wing Chun for over 10 years. Every Wing Chun school that I have been too, gives off an atmosphere that their Wing Chun is better or more original or more traditional or more superior. In a sense, it is more secretive and only taught to loyal students or indoor disciples. The Sifu’s I have encountered subconsciously re-enforces that he will share this secret with all us if we remain loyal to him and his lineage. For the past 10 years, I’ve never learned anything I would consider to be “secret, original, traditional or superior ”Wing Chun." Is it because I wasn’t a loyal student? Is it because I didn’t pay fees? Not true at all. I’ve remained loyal and paid all my fees. I did things in class and outside of class that was not even related to Wing Chun for all my Sifu’s. I’ve even posted comments on martial art forums for them even though I didn’t agree with what they wanted me to say to the internet public. Till this day, I still have not learned the secret Wing Chun that my all Sifu’s subconsciously portrays in their school. The only secret that I have learned over this 10 year experience is that, if someday, I decide to teach Wing Chun and want to make money and retain students, I have to do what these Sifu’s did to me and that is to keep all students wandering that there is a “secret, original, traditional or superior” Wing Chun; and if they want to learn it; they will have to remain loyal and pay their fees over a long period of time. This is just my personal experience. Sorry if I offended anyone. All thoughts are welcomed.

Where and who do you train with now?

[LoneTiger108]

These days, I am starting to agree with your statement. My experience is mostly with TWC, but a few fellow Wing Chun practitioners out there say that Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is even more secretive.

Having originated from secretive societies of the past doesn't automatically make a system more secretive now imho. The Hung Mun clan is still just as secretive as it was, but these HFY guys have been allowed to promote themselves openly now for some reason. Whether that truly makes them Hung Mun 'now' is another ball game altogether!

They have a totally different way of teaching than many Ip Man lineages, but ultimately we should all be looking for the same results and same system in the end. Secrets or no secrets, the evidence should be visible in one way or another and there are plenty of guys who post here that can pick out the wheat from the chaff imho.

[wingchunIan]

if any teacher told me that there were secrets that I could only learn after x amount of time or y amount of money, I'd say thanks but no thanks. You should always be able to see what more senior students are doing, and secrets are not the same as a progressive learning syllabus. Unfortunately the secrets and mysticism approach is common in traditional arts, not just TCMA, the japanese and korean arts are equally as bad, and is often a way of hiding faults or simply making the art / instructor seem better than it is. IMHO Ip Man wing chun, close to the source (ie any of his direct 1st and even 2nd gen students) has less of this than most other traditional martial arts due to its simplicity and lack of reliance on mystical forces.

[LoneTiger108]

IMHO Ip Man wing chun, close to the source (ie any of his direct 1st and even 2nd gen students) has less of this than most other traditional martial arts due to its simplicity and lack of reliance on mystical forces.

I also think it's worth noting that what you suggest here is mainly because much of the Traditional methods of training were, in effect, removed by Ip Man in his later years, or he may not have known of them himself (how dare I say it lol!!)

To give an example, my Sigung was a direct student of Ip Man (and others) and he taught all his students differently. Not so much different methods, but different ideas of 'how to teach' and even among themselves today they do not really know what the other 'Brothers' learnt! If you are in the family you will know the stories and history of each Sifu and would understand why Joseph Cheng was different to Austin Goh, Joe Lee different to Joseph Man etc BUT if you are not close enough you will know none of this info.

That is as secretive as we go, as a family. Just my thoughts.

[Yoshiyahu]

There is one secret..If you practice hard on your own outside the kwoon and fight others outside of WC you will discover the true secrets for your self.

A sifu can only give you the skeleton...You have to add the meat to your art yourself by using it!

[jonlee]

Having originated from secretive societies of the past doesn't automatically make a system more secretive now imho. The Hung Mun clan is still just as secretive as it was, but these HFY guys have been allowed to promote themselves openly now for some reason. Whether that truly makes them Hung Mun 'now' is another ball game altogether!

They have a totally different way of teaching than many Ip Man lineages, but ultimately we should all be looking for the same results and same system in the end. Secrets or no secrets, the evidence should be visible in one way or another and there are plenty of guys who post here that can pick out the wheat from the chaff imho.

I often read up on Hung Fa Yi's forum. They have all these Chinese words written in English and it sounds quite secretive or mysterious. In the pass, I use to get excited learning these new Chinese terms because it felt like I was learning something secretive. But I guess I was just a dumb Caucasian thinking that these Chinese words carried with it some form of secrete martial meaning. To be honest, I don't see too many Chinese or Asians studying martial art. They must not be as gullible as us Caucasians.

[Happy Tiger]

Secrets:
1.) Almost half of what you learn in the first ten years will be pointless in the next ten years.
2.)If you have internal relaxed structure man and woman are equal
3.)Bong sau is aggressive.
4.) VT has natural cavity attacks (dim mak) if you dare
5.)Ip Man VT is actually two kinds of VT both equally potent but different.

[jonlee]

Who am I kidding? I've come to the conclusion that no Asian man is going to teach me, a Caucasian guy, his ancient Chinese secret. It's something I'll just have to live with.

[zuti car]

If you can kick someone's ass you know the secret , if your ass is kicked then you don't know the secret , simple as that

[LoneTiger108]

I often read up on Hung Fa Yi's forum. They have all these Chinese words written in English and it sounds quite secretive or mysterious. In the pass, I use to get excited learning these new Chinese terms because it felt like I was learning something secretive. But I guess I was just a dumb Caucasian thinking that these Chinese words carried with it some form of secrete martial meaning. To be honest, I don't see too many Chinese or Asians studying martial art. They must not be as gullible as us Caucasians.

Man, you seem to have had a bit of an issue here.

I can't speak for the HFY curriculums as I have not learnt them, but I did learn many forms of literature and kuit that played a massive part in my understanding of Wing Chun because that was how my Sifu learnt, his Sifu and Ip Man learnt etc. As far as I am aware, the HFY literature is far more Shaolin/Ch'an based than what I have been exposed to, and I have yet to see any other lineage present specific lines I am familiar with. Is this because what I learnt was 'made up' by my Sigung? Maybe. But if so, he was a very very clever gent!!

Can this be considered 'secret'? Well, only to those that can't be bothered trying to learn a bit of another language! It definitely has never been regarded as a secret by my own Sifu lol! And just because he never took the commercial root and only teaches 'who he wants to teach', doesn't make him anymore secretive either. Just extra fussy about his students and very stubborn with regards to all this modernization and cross-training that seems to have plagued Wing Chun students minds! His view, not mine...

I do feel that the writings hold a level of knowledge that is simply not 'respected' enough these days because maybe people are not passing it on correctly (?) or the student is not studying and training enough themselves. Nothing to do with being 'caucasians' imhho

[Wayfaring]

I often read up on Hung Fa Yi's forum. They have all these Chinese words written in English and it sounds quite secretive or mysterious.

More recently they have started posting chinese characters along with English content posts as well. I think this is because sifu Gee has traveled to China more recently and established contacts there thus these are for primarily non-English speaking Chinese readers.

I don't think the intent is secrecy or mystery. Likewise with the transliterated Chinese. Referring to concepts in the original language preserves a little culture, and also the kuit, oral and/or written. Many times the Chinese statements are proverbial or succinctly stated such that the teaching and explanation require many more words and demos.

[JPinAZ]

;)This whole talk of secrets is kinda silly IMO. I don't think it's keeping secrets is someone doesn't want to teach certain things to a student. Fact is, they just might not be ready. Or, they just might not have shown the proper character to be honest.

To address the other issue that's popped up by jonlee: there are no 'secrets' in HFY. I think most of the HFY guys here have been pretty open on the forums with sharing or asking questions. If anyone has attended one of GM Gee's workshops, they would see that he is pretty open to questions on HFY, whether it's about the system, history, philosophy, etc.
Yes, the system has only recently been opened up to the public (within the past 10-12 year), but that is the choice of the inheritor of the system and if people call that secret, the issue is with them.

jonlee, I think instead of making decision based on 'things you've heard', maybe you could simply ask a question if you have one, and one of us will try our best to answer. This might work better vs. basing views off of gossip from those that have no real experience with HFY.
As you say, you've been reading on HFY108, have you registered or asked any questions there? You say are not happy with the Chinese terms, you do realize WCK is a Southern Chinese MA right? Do you know why the Chinese terms are included, and have you also have noticed that they are always followed with their English definitions as well? how can you feel this is so secretive or mysterious when it is being shared in the open on a public forum?

[k gledhill]

If you can kick someone's ass you know the secret , if your ass is kicked then you don't know the secret , simple as that

Lmao, I needed that !:D

[Yoshiyahu]

Some WC lineages dont teach internal because that are merely concerned about fighting...Some discredit the internal part as not being originally from WC. So when a westerner sees someone saying Wing Chun Chi Gung they discredit it because they feel WC is primairly and external system....


The internal is not really a secret...Most people dont care for internal side of martial arts!



Not sure for which lineage of wing chun...
I read somewhere in the past that there is outer and inner part of the system and that the inner part is kept secret. The inner part is supposed to be a complete system of internal energy cultivation (chi), opening main body energy channels and meridians, clearing internal organs and so on...

As I know in some ta chi families, they teach forms to everyone, but internal work only to inner circle. Old Chinese tradition...

My 2 cents to secrets...


Jox, :)

[Vajramusti]

The internal is not really a secret...Most people dont care for internal side of martial arts!
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The real secret in wing chun is safe with Yoshiyahu- you just have to ask him!

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

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The real secret in wing chun is safe with Yoshiyahu- you just have to ask him!

joy chaudhuri


the real secret is just to practice, stretch, breath and fight with your art.

[jonlee]

;)This whole talk of secrets is kinda silly IMO. I don't think it's keeping secrets is someone doesn't want to teach certain things to a student. Fact is, they just might not be ready. Or, they just might not have shown the proper character to be honest.

To address the other issue that's popped up by jonlee: there are no 'secrets' in HFY. I think most of the HFY guys here have been pretty open on the forums with sharing or asking questions. If anyone has attended one of GM Gee's workshops, they would see that he is pretty open to questions on HFY, whether it's about the system, history, philosophy, etc.
Yes, the system has only recently been opened up to the public (within the past 10-12 year), but that is the choice of the inheritor of the system and if people call that secret, the issue is with them.

jonlee, I think instead of making decision based on 'things you've heard', maybe you could simply ask a question if you have one, and one of us will try our best to answer. This might work better vs. basing views off of gossip from those that have no real experience with HFY.
As you say, you've been reading on HFY108, have you registered or asked any questions there? You say are not happy with the Chinese terms, you do realize WCK is a Southern Chinese MA right? Do you know why the Chinese terms are included, and have you also have noticed that they are always followed with their English definitions as well? how can you feel this is so secretive or mysterious when it is being shared in the open on a public forum?

JPinAZ, I have posted and asked questions on HFY108. But sometimes my posts get removed because HFY108 is run by Hung Fa Yi practitioners. If I say something they don't agree with, then they remove my posts. Or they all gang up on me on their forum using their English Chinese terms that make no sense to anyone but themselves. It seems like you are close to these HFY guys so maybe you can ask them this question off the top of my head. I read somewhere that GM Gee has been teaching HFY since the 70's, and he is still the only HFY sifu out there? Is that true?

[JPinAZ]

JPinAZ, I have posted and asked questions on HFY108. But sometimes my posts get removed because HFY108 is run by Hung Fa Yi practitioners. If I say something they don't agree with, then they remove my posts. Or they all gang up on me on their forum using their English Chinese terms that make no sense to anyone but themselves. It seems like you are close to these HFY guys so maybe you can ask them this question off the top of my head. I read somewhere that GM Gee has been teaching HFY since the 70's, and he is still the only HFY sifu out there? Is that true?

Hmm, interesting. Since I am one of these 'HFY guys' you speak of, and have been a regular participant on HFY108 for many years, I am surpised to hear you say this. What is your login there? When and on which thread(s) did this occur on? Without specifics, I have no idea what you are talking about. And if this really did occur, I seriously doubt your posts were removed/moderated simply because a moderator disagreed with you.

To me, it seems you have some ax to grind with chinese terms, and HFY specifically. If you have a problem with the English/Chinese terms, then maybe HFY (or WCK in general) just isn't your thing. Since WCK is a chinese art and the chinese terms do have specific meaning in the teaching that direct english translation can't always convey, most WC teachers, regardless the lineage, will use the chinese terms to a greater or lesser extent. You will find them also being used by most posters quite often here on this forum as well.
But in an case, I can ssure you that the chinese terms are not used as a way to create some air of secrecy or mysticism as you are implying, or as a means to confuse you. Or maybe you're just not that special ;)

I'm not sure I understand your last question :confused:. There are many active HFY instructors, schools and clubs in different areas in and out of the US. This is explained on the HFY HQ website, HFY108 and the hungfablog website. Instead of bogging down this thread further, maybe you should just PM me directly

[Eric_H]

JPinAZ brought this to my attention




I have posted and asked questions on HFY108. But sometimes my posts get removed because HFY108 is run by Hung Fa Yi practitioners. If I say something they don't agree with, then they remove my posts.



I'm one of the mod team on HFY108 and have been for the last two/three years. We have a standing policy that posts are not to be deleted unless they are considered spam, regardless of content.

*If* one of our mods is deleting posts, please PM me the details and I will see what I can do to restore your posts and make sure this does not happen again.

Thank you,

[Savi]

FWIW, I use chinese terms when I teach, AND I translate them into English, AND I describe the meaning of them, AND I explain what's involved in the tech behind the terms: Context and Content.

My Sifu taught me that as a Sifu, several cornerstones of leadership are needed. Some of them I will share: Honesty, Integrity, Intelligence, and Compassion.

Jonlee, you sound like a young guy with a lot of unresolved issues. I would like to suggest some serious introspection before painting such a large stroke with that brush of yours.

[Eric_H]

JPinAZ, I have posted and asked questions on HFY108. But sometimes my posts get removed because HFY108 is run by Hung Fa Yi practitioners. If I say something they don't agree with, then they remove my posts


Jonlee,

As you have not provided me with your login name, I did a check against HFY108's user database and came up with only one Jon Lee, whose last login was in 2004. I do not know if this is you or not as you have not provided me with your login information but if that was you, I need to explain some things:

Prior to 2009 HFY108 was heavily influenced by the VTM. Benny Meng in particular would often edit or delete people's posts if he did not agree with their words or they criticized him or his programs. Unfortunately, we lost a number of students over that, I am assuming you might have been one of them? Even I myself had some of my posts removed/edited/deleted back in those days as I had some issues with things that were going on. It was aggravating, to say the least, and not something I would be party to today.

These days, now that the VTM influence is not around, we tend to follow Grandmaster Gee's direct mandate that people should "Express themselves honestly and let the world judge them" not be censored by anyone with an agenda. I think this is evident by the forum flare-ups we've had between Emin/Leung Ting and BJJ people, James (Roller?) from Canada and Victor Parlati and Sifu Sergio's camp with some of Andreas Hoffman's guys - all of which (except for some posts that were deleted by James when he was a moderator) are still there. Aside from some DB crashes and forum hacks,we try to keep everything up.

HFY108 is open to everybody, regardless of style or lineage. We hope to keep it that way.

[tigershorty]

you guys basically just did what he said. 3 hfy guys getting in line to tell him how wrong and/or misunderstood he was.

jonlee, as someone who has studied HFY- the terms are there because it is the vocabulary of the system. there is no reason why you couldn't call a taan sau a "spreading hand" if you really wanted to.

[Savi]

you guys basically just did what he said. 3 hfy guys getting in line to tell him how wrong and/or misunderstood he was.We guys? Sorry Ben. I post on my own volition. Jon and Eric post on their own terms in their OWN ways. LMAO. What makes my comment any different from any other on this thread BEYOND the fact I am from HFY?

I did not tell him he is wrong. I did not tell him he misunderstands or is misunderstood. I offered a suggestion of introsepction.

FWIW, there are many different moderators on 108 from other kung fu groups.

Chinese terms do not tranlate well into english, therefore meanings and insight into function are impacted without sound and further explanation.

[tigershorty]

Savi, you sound like a young guy with a lot of unresolved issues. I would like to suggest some serious introspection.

[JPinAZ]

you guys basically just did what he said. 3 hfy guys getting in line to tell him how wrong and/or misunderstood he was.


Haha, now you're just talking out your jong sau, because I did no such thing. Since I was having a discussion with jonlee directly, I don't see how I 'got in line' for anything. I don't feel I told him he was wrong about anything and did my best to answer his questions.
It seems to me you are the one that got inline to defend jonlee when he doesn't really need it - he's not being attacked here. And, he can speak for himself yeah?

Savi and Eric are both moderators of HFY108. since jonlee was has a problem and is accusing moderators there of censorship, I think it is a good thing that they piped in. Still waiting to hear from him when/where this happened as he claims. Should be easy to clear up and see who did what, if it happened at all.

Again, this is boggin down the thread, so maybe it should either be taken to a new thread, or offline. On second thought, no thread here ever lasts more than a page or so before it gets side-tracked, bogged down, etc., so I guess it's normal procedure. Carry on!

[Savi]

L M A O. :rolleyes:

[tigershorty]

where are my posts you deleted/edited savi?

where are all the posts from the hfy student forum?

what's up with me asking what forms HFY had on the hfy108 after training over 4 years and you asking what i had done to deserve such knowledge and being a complete jerk to me?

you're secretive, you censor and you're full of it. you don't even know chum kiu or bil jee and you're a "sifu". seriously, dude- check your ego. that's why no one goes to hfy108 anymore, not even HFY people.

[Savi]

The HFY108 forum belongs to JK Walz. It is owned and currently maintained by him. He provided the funding, built the forum, and through his contributions provided a place for the martial world to share and preserve their knowledge and heritage of their martial arts. Eric provided a sound explanation on those issues. Also, I have not edited or deleted any of your posts.

I have been teaching since 1999 under Master Richard Loewenhagen, and he formally promoted me to Sifu level before his retirement. My students also call me their Sifu. That is public knowledge and is more than enough. You do not know what I know and have learned, and to say otherwise is a falsehood.

Call me a jerk, mischaracterize, start lies, and say what you will, or not, that's fine. I've seen many types over the years and I am open to criticism.

The next time we meet I am open to discuss things with you in person.

[tigershorty]

you had to have your SNT corrected and fixed an hour before it was even filmed because you couldn't do it right. seriously, get off your high horse.

you have edited and deleted my post. if you're challenging me, i'm always available.

[Savi]

I don't have a high horse except the heart of a student. I'm open for any correction for anything, anytime, and never too proud to learn. I empty my cup at all times. Regarding challenging you over an emotional issue... That's not in my book. Sitting down with a few good friends for discussing martial arts, anytime, why not?

[tigershorty]

this issue isn't emotional.

i'm doing you a favor by calling you out. stop posing. People like you drove me away from HFY, you're doing it to more people.

[Wayfaring]

Haha, now you're just talking out your jong sau, because I did no such thing.

I, on the other hand, am talking out my dong sau. Just because it is longer :cool:

[Wayfaring]

i'm doing you a favor by calling you out. stop posing. People like you drove me away from HFY, you're doing it to more people.

hey, just out of curiousity, what is it that you are up to lately from a training perspective?

[JPinAZ]

I, on the other hand, am talking out my dong sau. Just because it is longer :cool:

LOL. Good grief, you have your own YJKYM WC kick stand!

(And don't let Ben/Tiger Shorty fool you, he loves HFY more than he will admit :p)

[Wayfaring]

The HFY108 forum belongs to JK Walz. It is owned and currently maintained by him. He provided the funding, built the forum, and through his contributions provided a place for the martial world to share and preserve their knowledge and heritage of their martial arts.

More like it's a place to go to hear crickets chirping. The only thing over there interesting anymore is the HFY HQ updates. The rest of it is pretty lame for a place "for the martial world to share and preserve their knowledge and heritage of their martial arts".

[tigershorty]

HFY certainly was the Wing Chun I started with and I will always consider some of the HFY guys life-long friends. You won't find nicer people than Mark Jones or JP to train with in AZ.


But I do prefer the WSL method and ABMVT's specific direction in learning wing chun/ving tsun. Ernie Barrios has spent countless hours explaining things to me just over the phone that I don't think I would have learned otherwise. Don't look at the ABMVT coaches, look at their students on youtube. They're all great. That's all I can really say about that.

[JPinAZ]

HFY certainly was the Wing Chun I started with and I will always consider some of the HFY guys life-long friends. You won't find nicer people than Mark Jones or JP to train with in AZ.

Thanks - check is in the mail :p


But I do prefer the WSL method and ABMVT's specific direction in learning wing chun/ving tsun. Ernie Barrios has spent countless hours explaining things to me just over the phone that I don't think I would have learned otherwise. Don't look at the ABMVT coaches, look at their students on youtube. They're all great. That's all I can really say about that.

With proper lighting, camera angle and editting, anyone can be made to look good!! haha, just messing with ya Ernie :D

[tigershorty]

Ernie's students are the best wing chun students I have ever touched hands with. The people he trains in 1 weekend are better than most 10 year students I know. Ask anyone whose been to one of his seminars.

On the other hand, I couldn't edit a HFY video to look good. And I tried.

[jonlee]

you guys basically just did what he said. 3 hfy guys getting in line to tell him how wrong and/or misunderstood he was.

jonlee, as someone who has studied HFY- the terms are there because it is the vocabulary of the system. there is no reason why you couldn't call a taan sau a "spreading hand" if you really wanted to.

Oh crap! Here comes the gang of HFY paper tigers. If this conversation was in real life, I think I might have been jumped by the HFY gang.

[tigershorty]

Oh crap! Here comes the gang of HFY paper tigers. If this conversation was in real life, I think I might have been jumped by the HFY gang.

I wouldn't call a majority of them paper tigers...a lot of them really can throw down. For whatever that's worth.

[jonlee]

where are my posts you deleted/edited savi?

where are all the posts from the hfy student forum?

what's up with me asking what forms HFY had on the hfy108 after training over 4 years and you asking what i had done to deserve such knowledge and being a complete jerk to me?

you're secretive, you censor and you're full of it. you don't even know chum kiu or bil jee and you're a "sifu". seriously, dude- check your ego. that's why no one goes to hfy108 anymore, not even HFY people.

This is exactly my point. I asked JPinAZ this question, "I read some where that GM Gee has been teaching HFY since the 70's, and he is still the only HFY sifu out there? Is that true?"

JPinAZ, answered, "There are many active HFY instructors, schools and clubs in different areas in and out of the US. "

So tigershorty says that savi is a "sifu" and he doesn't even know chum kiu or bil jee. Don't you have to at least know these forms before you become a sifu? Is there a difference between a HFY instructor and a HFY sifu? How many HFY practitioners out there in the world that knows anything beyond the first form? I mean, GM Gee has been teaching WC since the 70's and I finally just saw the first video of HYF Siu Nim Tao. Talk about secrecy or having something to hide? HFY practitioners please answer the above questions.

A little more about myself. I'm in my 40's. My Sifu is in his 60's. It took him almost 10 years before he taught me Chum Kiu. I have a good feeling I remain in Chum Kiu for 10 years before he teaches me Bil Jee. Then spend another 10 years in Bil Jee. My Sifu will probably be dead by then since he is not a healthy guy.

So that is my grief. Is it the subconscious sense that my Sifu will teach me his WC secrets if I stick around long enough or are my eyes opening up to the reality that it's not only my Sifu that is doing this but the majority of all Sifu's are doing this....collecting fees from every student for as long as he can with a subconscious promise that he will teach me the complete "secret, superior, or traditional" Wing Chun.

Everyone. Please share your thoughts. How long have you been practicing WC and where are you at in terms of learning? I'd especially like to hear from the HFY guys since their WC seems to be the most secretive?

[anerlich]

Secrecy in any endeavour of this nature is ultimately self-defeating.

The usual analogy is cryptography. The best encyption methods are not those which are kept secret. The best are those which are published openly for anyone to try and crack. If the method is still uncracked after three, or five, years, after being bashed by enverone in the encryption and hacker communities, then you can have a high level of confidence in it.

Can you rely on a method that's never been scrutinised by experts or been subjected to sustained pressure? Would you use a climbing rope of secret materials that had never been load tested and no one had ever climbed with before?

BJJ is a martial art where secrecy is impossible, because of public competition. The best guys have to bring their A game and everything they've got. If they don't use the best and most effective techniques in their arsenal, they are going to lose. And even the technique that is unstoppable and cleans everyone else up at one time does not stay that way, because people scrutinise it, come up with counters, etc. Then the original guy works out counters to the counters or better ways of doing the technique that make the counters impossible, so that everything evolves and improves.

The element of surprise is great, but doesn't last for very long.

The "secret" techniques of the w@nker you've been paying money to for a decade never get tested because they are never shown and never tried against a resisting opponent. They haven't been tested or developed under pressure. He probably isn't that good at them himself because he never or hardly ever gets the opportunity to try them out agi\ainst resistance.

Go somewhere else.

There is a case for a teaching progression and not getting the student to work on exotic or advanced techniques until the fundamental are mastered. But that ain't what we're talking about.

[imperialtaichi]

...are my eyes opening up to the reality that it's not only my Sifu that is doing this but the majority of all Sifu's are doing this....collecting fees from every student for as long as he can with a subconscious promise that he will teach me the complete "secret, superior, or traditional" Wing Chun.

WRONG. There are plenty of good guys out there. You may have had a bad experience but you shouldn't generalize.

Yes, I have met some dishonest guys; In general, if the teacher is not enthusiastic about teaching his students I won't waste my time with them.

I have also met numerous teachers whom give you so much you will still be digesting months after meeting them.

Good luck in your quest. There are plenty of good guys out there.

[jonlee]

Secrecy in any endeavour of this nature is ultimately self-defeating.

The usual analogy is cryptography. The best encyption methods are not those which are kept secret. The best are those which are published openly for anyone to try and crack. If the method is still uncracked after three, or five, years, after being bashed by enverone in the encryption and hacker communities, then you can have a high level of confidence in it.

Can you rely on a method that's never been scrutinised by experts or been subjected to sustained pressure? Would you use a climbing rope of secret materials that had never been load tested and no one had ever climbed with before?

BJJ is a martial art where secrecy is impossible, because of public competition. The best guys have to bring their A game and everything they've got. If they don't use the best and most effective techniques in their arsenal, they are going to lose. And even the technique that is unstoppable and cleans everyone else up at one time does not stay that way, because people scrutinise it, come up with counters, etc. Then the original guy works out counters to the counters or better ways of doing the technique that make the counters impossible, so that everything evolves and improves.

The element of surprise is great, but doesn't last for very long.

The "secret" techniques of the w@nker you've been paying money to for a decade never get tested because they are never shown and never tried against a resisting opponent. They haven't been tested or developed under pressure. He probably isn't that good at them himself because he never or hardly ever gets the opportunity to try them out agi\ainst resistance.

Go somewhere else.

There is a case for a teaching progression and not getting the student to work on exotic or advanced techniques until the fundamental are mastered. But that ain't what we're talking about.

anerlich, great anology! You make good sense.

I remember a conversation I had with my Sifu a couple years back. I asked him how long did he studied WC with his Sifu and he said, "5 years." In 5 years, my Sifu learned all the forms and it's application and it's secrets and became a Sifu. I'm pass my 10th year and I am just barely being taught Chuim Kiu. It just doesn't add up. To be honest. I don't even care about the secrets anymore. I just want someone to honestly teach me all the forms and it's applications as best as they know without any sense of secrecy. But that doesn't look like it will happen because if I go to a different school, I'm guessing the cycle will repeat itself. If I go and start up with something new like Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. I'm sure the Sifu there will start me at his Siu Nim Tao level and collect fees on that level until he feels I'm ready to move to the next level which can be another 5-10 years before I am even consider to move Chum Kiu level. I'm sure you guys get my point. I'm just frustrated!!

[anerlich]

I've encountered jonlee's experience as well. 5 1/2 years with a Xingyi/Bagua guy learning next to nothing but getting tossed a crumb every now and then to keep me hanging around. could have got red sash in another year but realised it would have meant zip.

That experience has been abnormal. All my other instructors held nothing back. There was a graduated curriculum. But about 1.5 years to CK, three to BJ. Dummy at the same time. Weapons in seminars. I knew all the forms within 5 years, graded to instructor level in 7. Wow, I'm a Sifu!

It didn't get me a higher income or help me pull more chicks (though I was married, so I can't say it wouldn't have worked for a single guy.)

Being a Sifu is WAY overrated unless you have a messiah complex. Teaching well is f*cking hard work. Students come and go. Impermanance.

I started doing BJJ because it interested me and was a lot of fun, and it worked. 12 more years and I'm a brown belt. But still a student. One guy I do seminars with gives out so much info in two hours that I spend months digesting and practising it.

Being a student rocks. Being a Sifu is overrated. Calling yourself a master makes you a complete w@nker.


Is it the subconscious sense that my Sifu will teach me his WC secrets if I stick around long enough or are my eyes opening up to the reality that it's not only my Sifu that is doing this but the majority of all Sifu's are doing this....collecting fees from every student for as long as he can with a subconscious promise that he will teach me the complete "secret, superior, or traditional" Wing Chun.


Not the norm by any means. You want to open your eyes? Go look at other MA schools.

[nasmedicine]

I've encountered jonlee's experience as well. 5 1/2 years with a Xingyi/Bagua guy learning next to nothing but getting tossed a crumb every now and then to keep me hanging around. could have got red sash in another year but realised it would have meant zip.

That experience has been abnormal. All my other instructors held nothing back. There was a graduated curriculum. But about 1.5 years to CK, three to BJ. Dummy at the same time. Weapons in seminars. I knew all the forms within 5 years, graded to instructor level in 7. Wow, I'm a Sifu!

It didn't get me a higher income or help me pull more chicks (though I was married, so I can't say it wouldn't have worked for a single guy.)

Being a Sifu is WAY overrated unless you have a messiah complex. Teaching well is f*cking hard work. Students come and go. Impermanance.

I started doing BJJ because it interested me and was a lot of fun, and it worked. 12 more years and I'm a brown belt. But still a student. One guy I do seminars with gives out so much info in two hours that I spend months digesting and practising it.

Being a student rocks. Being a Sifu is overrated. Calling yourself a master makes you a complete w@nker.



Not the norm by any means. You want to open your eyes? Go look at other MA schools.

great post

[mjw]

What about the secret 4th form jk:D

[anerlich]

What about the secret 4th form jk:D

Make it up. That's what all the others did.

[JPinAZ]

Jon Lee, you're a pretty funny guy. You make some pretty interesting accusations about your posts being deleted on HFY 108, how every one 'gangs up on you' there, use chinese words to confuse you (LOL on that one), etc yet you still want answers from HFY people? Who are you anyway?

Eric, who is a mod at HFY 108, came here to address your 'complaints', and both of us asked you to provide ANY information so we could genuinely get to the bottom of your accusations. You've still given none. So, why should you be taken seriously?
You sling mud, offer no proof to your 'claim' what-so-ever, but then also expect answers from the people you are accusing? :rolleyes:

[jonlee]

QUOTE=JPinAZ;1165245]Jon Lee, you're a pretty funny guy. You make some pretty interesting accusations about your posts being deleted on HFY 108, how every one 'gangs up on you' there, use chinese words to confuse you (LOL on that one), etc yet you still want answers from HFY people? Who are you anyway?

Eric, who is a mod at HFY 108, came here to address your 'complaints', and both of us asked you to provide ANY information so we could genuinely get to the bottom of your accusations. You've still given none. So, why should you be taken seriously?
You sling mud, offer no proof to your 'claim' what-so-ever, but then also expect answers from the people you are accusing? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

JPinAZ, you don't have to take me seriously. It's been a while since I posted on HFY108 and will probably never go back their because I felt I was censored. All I remember is that I might have said something that HFY people didn't like and figured that since HFY108 is owned by HFY guys, they might have deleted my comments or posts. You asked, "Who are you anyway?" Well, I am a police officer in the L.A. area who enjoys martial arts, in particular WC. I'm in a situation now where I need to decide if I should leave my current school and join a new school or quit WC all together.

You or HFY guys don't have to answer any questions that you don't want to. Keep the ancient Chinese secrets to yourself if that is what you choose to do. All I know right now from this post is that I'm not the only one who left like they were censored at HFY108. Tigershorty also felt that way too. I also learned that if I decided to joined a new WC school like HFY, there is only one real Sifu called "GM GEE", a bunch of "so-called" HFY instructors and one other HFY sifu called "savi" that only knows the first wing chun form. Which leads me to assume that if I joined a new school like HFY Wing Chun, I will still be in the same situation I am in right now; where I will be kept at the Siu Nim Tao level for another 5 - 10 years just to collect fees before the Sifu decides to move me to the next level. So now you have me wondering, that GM GEE has been teaching since the 70's and so far he has only produced one HFY sifu called "savi" who only knows the first WC form. Is this true or not? I don't know. I am making assumptions which might make an ass out of myself, but no one has stepped up to tell me anything different.

[JPinAZ]

Since you won't even give your name on HFY108 for the mods to check into, your 'allegations' mean very little to me. And now it seems you are even starting to have some memory issues with what really 'might' have happened that I'm starting to think it's all just BS . I see no point in coming here to cry about it if you aren't even willing back up your 'claims'.

As for the rest of the nonsense, if people are happy to pass judgement based on rumors and gossip, that's their choice. But I'm not wasting any more time with it. I'm done with this thread

[jonlee]

Since you won't even give your name on HFY108 for the mods to check into, your 'allegations' mean very little to me. And now it seems you are even starting to have some memory issues with what really 'might' have happened that I'm starting to think it's all just BS . I see no point in coming here to cry about it if you aren't even willing back up your 'claims'.

As for the rest of the nonsense, if people are happy to pass judgement based on rumors and gossip, that's their choice. But I'm not wasting any more time with it. I'm done with this thread

JPinAZ, you sound angry. I am angry too, but not at you or that HFY108 had deleted my posts in the pass. I am angry because I spent so much time and money into WC and I am just not happy with my current situation. Hopefully, you were lucky and didn't experience the same thing I did. Hopefully, GM GEE did produce more than one Sifu other than Savi who only knows one form. I apologize if I offended anyone. I hope you can say to yourself, that your Sifu was a good Sifu. Who taught you what you wanted to learn. Who didn't keep you around promising you secrets just to collect fees.

For all Sifu's reading this thread. I hope you don't do what my Sifu did to me.

[kentchang]

You asked, "Who are you anyway?" Well, I am a police officer in the L.A. area who enjoys martial arts, in particular WC. I'm in a situation now where I need to decide if I should leave my current school and join a new school or quit WC all together.

Who is the current WC sifu you study under in LA?
Gary Lam or ???
or...could it be SergioRazta!

ANNOYING MY MOM PART 2 - @SergioRazta
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo6mtRYnPuA

[Wayfaring]

JPinAZ, you don't have to take me seriously. It's been a while since I posted on HFY108 and will probably never go back their because I felt I was censored. All I remember is that I might have said something that HFY people didn't like and figured that since HFY108 is owned by HFY guys, they might have deleted my comments or posts.

So as a fair and balanced response, that HFY108 forum a while back had a whole lot of internal family struggle going on causing people to delete posts and argue a lot. Some of that spilled over here and is in the archives. For a historical background of that it all centered around Benny Meng around the time of him leaving HFY. Meng was the sigung to the AZ HFY group, joined HFY, then later left HFY. The AZ HFY group stayed with HFY and Garrett Gee. You had both Meng's guys on one side and some of the AZ HFY guys on the other all as mods so there's probably no telling who deleted what posts.

Right now that forum has the opposite problem - nobody posts there ;)


You asked, "Who are you anyway?" Well, I am a police officer in the L.A. area who enjoys martial arts, in particular WC. I'm in a situation now where I need to decide if I should leave my current school and join a new school or quit WC all together.

Well, nice to meet you. That's a tough decision.



You or HFY guys don't have to answer any questions that you don't want to. Keep the ancient Chinese secrets to yourself if that is what you choose to do. All I know right now from this post is that I'm not the only one who left like they were censored at HFY108. Tigershorty also felt that way too.

Yeah, no doubt. I'm sure I've got a fair amount of content over there that has been moved around, made private, etc. Hopefully the above gives a little background.


I also learned that if I decided to joined a new WC school like HFY, there is only one real Sifu called "GM GEE", a bunch of "so-called" HFY instructors and one other HFY sifu called "savi" that only knows the first wing chun form.

Garrett Gee is the lineage holder of HFY - the head "sifu" if you will - he goes by sifu and doesn't use the same title as others (like Leung Ting - Master of Almightiness or whatever, or sigung). He has an instructor program introduced in mid 2000's - of which a bunch of people are certified sifus to the SNT level (first form). While sifu Gee is teaching a whole bunch of layers to the first form, those guys - who some are starting to call themselves "sifus" now - are more like "sifus in training" in an apprenticeship. Savi knows more than the first form.



Which leads me to assume that if I joined a new school like HFY Wing Chun, I will still be in the same situation I am in right now; where I will be kept at the Siu Nim Tao level for another 5 - 10 years just to collect fees before the Sifu decides to move me to the next level.
[QUOTE]
In HFY, I would say that it takes a bit of time to get through all the SNT layers - maybe a few years or so, but once you learn it and prove it you get the next layer. However, and this is something to consider, if you break up teaching an art from zero to mastery in say 10-12 years, that's about normal. It takes that long to get a BJJ black belt, for comparison.

But it's very likely if you hook up with a mediocre secretive sifu in WCK that you will wind up in exactly the situation you are now.
[QUOTE]
So now you have me wondering, that GM GEE has been teaching since the 70's and so far he has only produced one HFY sifu called "savi" who only knows the first WC form. Is this true or not? I don't know. I am making assumptions which might make an ass out of myself, but no one has stepped up to tell me anything different.
He has long-time students - some sifus, some not. Sifu Allen Kong, who doesn't post on forums, is one of those. Alex (duende) who posts here is another.

Hope that gives you some realistic answers.

[Faruq]

The secret to most Chinese martial arts is that it has to have a sense of secrecy in order for it to thrive. Since most of my experience with Chinese martial arts comes from Wing Chun, I will use Wing Chun as an example. I’ve been studying Wing Chun for over 10 years. Every Wing Chun school that I have been too, gives off an atmosphere that their Wing Chun is better or more original or more traditional or more superior. In a sense, it is more secretive and only taught to loyal students or indoor disciples. The Sifu’s I have encountered subconsciously re-enforces that he will share this secret with all us if we remain loyal to him and his lineage. For the past 10 years, I’ve never learned anything I would consider to be “secret, original, traditional or superior ”Wing Chun." .

Brother, you said a mouthful! Amen. Reminds me of David Ross' post: "My teacher, like a lot of Chinese teachers, felt that those who mattered always knew the real deal and those who didn't know the "real deal" never mattered. A sifu in the martial arts community (Mo Lum) knows exactly how a real Baai Si (adoption) ceremony takes place. If you say you were adopted and don't have the right things, a real person in the Mo Lum is going to laugh his azz off at you and take you for a clown. Of course, most Americans don't know thing #1 about this sort of stuff

A real Baai Si is a public event. It is usually announced, often in newspapers. Mine was.

A fortune teller is consulted to find the right date, you must submit to your sifu your date and time of birth.

A real Baai Si must have witnesses, at least one a MAJOR figure in the Mo Lum. My #1 Baai Si witness was Sifu Frank Yee (Yee Chi Wai) of the Dang Fong Hung Ga lineage.

My other two witneses were a Choy Lay Fut teacher and a member of one of the associations.

A real Baai Si involves you receiving a reb paper books which has important Kuen Po and which is signed by you, your sifu and the witnesses.

To my knowledge, my sifu did four Baai Si in China before coming here. He did three official Baai Si in the US, all done in the Mineola school myself, Gus Kapros and Michael Parrella opened.

I bring this up because my sifu, like many sifu I know, was also capable of turning to someone and telling them "hey, you got $500? I'll adopt you. Come to my house on a Thursday night with teh cash and BOOM you're adopted!"

The senior students had a huge issue with Sifu Chan over this sort of stuff. My sifu always scoffed and laughed. He said that anyone who mattered, ie real people in the Mo Lum, would never take someone claiming to be adopted from one of these "late night cash sessions" seriously.

And if another ignorant American believed someone was an adopted disciple because of this? WHO CARED. They didn't matter anyway...

It was also common knowledge that my sifu had A, B, C, even D versions of everything he taught. Like I said previously, usually in 5 minutes he figured out whether you had potential or not. If you didn't, he never bothered to even try and show you the real stuff...

This is why, from time to time, you'll see some whining SOB claim that Chan Tai San didn't know anything. He'll inevitably claim he studied with him and learned crap. Of course, that doesn't mean Sifu Chan didn't know anything, it meant he never showed YOU anything of value. There is a difference....."

[jonlee]

So as a fair and balanced response, that HFY108 forum a while back had a whole lot of internal family struggle going on causing people to delete posts and argue a lot. Some of that spilled over here and is in the archives. For a historical background of that it all centered around Benny Meng around the time of him leaving HFY. Meng was the sigung to the AZ HFY group, joined HFY, then later left HFY. The AZ HFY group stayed with HFY and Garrett Gee. You had both Meng's guys on one side and some of the AZ HFY guys on the other all as mods so there's probably no telling who deleted what posts.

Right now that forum has the opposite problem - nobody posts there ;)

Well, nice to meet you. That's a tough decision.


Yeah, no doubt. I'm sure I've got a fair amount of content over there that has been moved around, made private, etc. Hopefully the above gives a little background.

Garrett Gee is the lineage holder of HFY - the head "sifu" if you will - he goes by sifu and doesn't use the same title as others (like Leung Ting - Master of Almightiness or whatever, or sigung). He has an instructor program introduced in mid 2000's - of which a bunch of people are certified sifus to the SNT level (first form). While sifu Gee is teaching a whole bunch of layers to the first form, those guys - who some are starting to call themselves "sifus" now - are more like "sifus in training" in an apprenticeship. Savi knows more than the first form.

[QUOTE]
Which leads me to assume that if I joined a new school like HFY Wing Chun, I will still be in the same situation I am in right now; where I will be kept at the Siu Nim Tao level for another 5 - 10 years just to collect fees before the Sifu decides to move me to the next level.
[QUOTE]
In HFY, I would say that it takes a bit of time to get through all the SNT layers - maybe a few years or so, but once you learn it and prove it you get the next layer. However, and this is something to consider, if you break up teaching an art from zero to mastery in say 10-12 years, that's about normal. It takes that long to get a BJJ black belt, for comparison.

But it's very likely if you hook up with a mediocre secretive sifu in WCK that you will wind up in exactly the situation you are now.

He has long-time students - some sifus, some not. Sifu Allen Kong, who doesn't post on forums, is one of those. Alex (duende) who posts here is another.

Hope that gives you some realistic answers.

Wayfaring, thank you for the feedback. Can I assume that you are HFY?

I think I'm consider one of these "sifus in training" too, just at another WC school. I think it would be great if everyone shared their experience at their WC school in regards to their training progression and how their WC learning path is coming along. I would love to hear from people who holds the Sifu titles to answer basic questions like, "How many years did you study WC at your school before you became Sifu?" How many forms do you know as a Sifu? How long did your Sifu keep you at each stage of the WC forms?

It will be great if the HFY sifus mentioned above can provide some insight in their person training progression at their WC school.

It's no surprise, I will be leaving my current WC school soon, but the answers to be above questions from different schools will really help me decide if I should quit WC all together or go out and look for another WC school. Thank you all in advance.

[kentchang]

This is why, from time to time, you'll see some whining SOB claim that Chan Tai San didn't know anything. He'll inevitably claim he studied with him and learned crap. Of course, that doesn't mean Sifu Chan didn't know anything, it meant he never showed YOU anything of value. There is a difference....."

It's great to see both sides of a situation. Knowledge is best found on its own.


It's no surprise, I will be leaving my current WC school soon, but the answers to be above questions from different schools will really help me decide if I should quit WC all together or go out and look for another WC school.

JonLee,
Who is your WC sifu in LA?
Gary Lam, Hawkin Cheung or ???

Wish all the zoos are like this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZf5WMplJhQ&feature=related

[kentchang]

Brother, you said a mouthful! Amen. Reminds me of David Ross' post: "My teacher, like a lot of Chinese teachers, felt that those who mattered always knew the real deal and those who didn't know the "real deal" never mattered. A sifu in the martial arts community (Mo Lum) knows exactly how a real Baai Si (adoption) ceremony takes place. If you say you were adopted and don't have the right things, a real person in the Mo Lum is going to laugh his azz off at you and take you for a clown. Of course, most Americans don't know thing #1 about this sort of stuff

A real Baai Si is a public event. It is usually announced, often in newspapers. Mine was.

A fortune teller is consulted to find the right date, you must submit to your sifu your date and time of birth.

A real Baai Si must have witnesses, at least one a MAJOR figure in the Mo Lum. My #1 Baai Si witness was Sifu Frank Yee (Yee Chi Wai) of the Dang Fong Hung Ga lineage.

My other two witneses were a Choy Lay Fut teacher and a member of one of the associations.

A real Baai Si involves you receiving a reb paper books which has important Kuen Po and which is signed by you, your sifu and the witnesses.

To my knowledge, my sifu did four Baai Si in China before coming here. He did three official Baai Si in the US, all done in the Mineola school myself, Gus Kapros and Michael Parrella opened.

I bring this up because my sifu, like many sifu I know, was also capable of turning to someone and telling them "hey, you got $500? I'll adopt you. Come to my house on a Thursday night with teh cash and BOOM you're adopted!"

The senior students had a huge issue with Sifu Chan over this sort of stuff. My sifu always scoffed and laughed. He said that anyone who mattered, ie real people in the Mo Lum, would never take someone claiming to be adopted from one of these "late night cash sessions" seriously.

And if another ignorant American believed someone was an adopted disciple because of this? WHO CARED. They didn't matter anyway...

It was also common knowledge that my sifu had A, B, C, even D versions of everything he taught. Like I said previously, usually in 5 minutes he figured out whether you had potential or not. If you didn't, he never bothered to even try and show you the real stuff...

This is why, from time to time, you'll see some whining SOB claim that Chan Tai San didn't know anything. He'll inevitably claim he studied with him and learned crap. Of course, that doesn't mean Sifu Chan didn't know anything, it meant he never showed YOU anything of value. There is a difference....."

Yep!
Now, the commentary is better understood, thanks.

[jonlee]

It's great to see both sides of a situation. Knowledge is best found on its own.



JonLee,
Who is your WC sifu in LA?
Gary Lam, Hawkin Cheung or ???

Wish all the zoos are like this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZf5WMplJhQ&feature=related

kentchang, I would love to disclose who my sifu is, but I just don't think it's the appropriate time yet. Maybe in time, I will. Stay tuned. I'm sure all sifus who are doing this are perfectly aware of what they are doing.

[kentchang]

jonlee, how many WC schools in LA?

[TroyMacraft]

The secret to most Chinese martial arts is that it has to have a sense of secrecy in order for it to thrive. Since most of my experience with Chinese martial arts comes from Wing Chun, I will use Wing Chun as an example. I’ve been studying Wing Chun for over 10 years. Every Wing Chun school that I have been too, gives off an atmosphere that their Wing Chun is better or more original or more traditional or more superior. In a sense, ...

Welcome to the world of marketing. There is always something special inside this box! That is how you get people interested.

On the other hand. Are you a better person for learning Wing Chun? Probably so.. The secret did it's job!!

[T.Panda]

No need to get involved in politics mate. The greatest secret of all which you may eventually find is inside of you... (in each one of us)

The sifu exists to guide you in a general direction. The name, or style, or portrayed secrecy is only a pointing finger. It's there for you to contemplate. It is very easily misunderstood as a definite answer or an established fact. Only you can take yourself to what is currently outside your perception. This is partially why there is a form called SNT.

We need to keep in mind that WC came from a more complete system of martial training in Shaolin Temple. We also need to keep in mind that WC was established as an intensive curriculum that would produce decent fighters. Much of the old curriculum was not included for this reason.

Having said that, I realized that my own WC is still mostly without foundation. With some luck and guidance from a helpful instructor, I realized that what I was seeking goes way way beyond the borders of Wing Chun. In my guidance I was introduced the fundamentals to Traditional Chinese Science and Medicine, Chinese philosophy, meditation, and energy boxing.

If one seeks to learn WC for fighting, thats all he will get. Your intent will guide you, so know what you want and understand the result of what you wish for.

Get out of your own way. Forget TWC, HFY, VT, WT, etc. Forget even your sifu. Don't get involved in politics. Continuously seek your path. Continuously practice. You are certain to find your secret one day or another. Good lucks mate!