Was Wing Chun meant to be a complete system?

[Kevin73]

Just thought I would ask this question..

Reading the history of Wing Chun, it was designed to be learned in a very short amount of time and was designed to help a person beat another specific person.

The "founder" was trained in a southern style of kung fu and then distilled it to be learned in that one year time of hard training. Looking at other southern styles you see many of the same concepts there as well, although not as much time is spent on them in some cases.

So do you think that Wing Chun, was a sort of "kung fu combatives" that was meat and potatoes of it's parent system of the easy to learn apply techniques, or do you think that it was designed to be a whole comprehensive system.

[LoneTiger108]

I personally believe that Wing Chun is a complete Southern Chinese Martial Arts System. That is how I was taught and I had a few years to see and decide if this could be true. :)

[couch]

I think we have the inability at this point to really know what Wing Chun was all about.

Your lineage may vary, but as far as I am concerned, I've got a stripped down (meat and potatoes - as you said) version of a Kung-Fu system. By the time it got to me, I got a 'core' set of ideas, principles and techniques for a stand-up fighting system.

Plus, what I received is only good for one primary range: closer than striking, but not so close as clinching. There are pointers to different ranges (more like a 'boxing range') but that would need a practitioner to look outside the box a bit.

[YouKnowWho]

Was Wing Chun meant to be a complete system?

This "complete" issue has be discussed over and over in the past. Can you find a girl on this planet who is:

- pretty,
- rich,
- cook well,
- keep house clean,
- crazy love in you,
- give you body massage everyday,
- be you TCMA training partner daily?
- ...

Is

- boxing complete?
- Judo complete?
- BJJ complete?
- ...

There exist no "complete" MA system on this planet.

[Yoshiyahu]

An the State rest it case!



Was Wing Chun meant to be a complete system?

This "complete" issue has be discussed over and over in the past. Can you find a girl on this planet who is:

- pretty,
- rich,
- cook well,
- keep house clean,
- crazy love in you,
- give you body massage everyday,
- be you TCMA training partner daily?
- ...

Is

- boxing complete?
- Judo complete?
- BJJ complete?
- ...

There exist no "complete" MA system on this planet.

[JPinAZ]

From my experience with HFY, WCK is a complete system. It has core principles, mechanics, theories and technology to deal with all 'ranges' of combat. The system has everything one needs to deal with a kicker, striker or wrestler/grappler. And by that, I do not mean the practitioner is above fault, but strictly speaking from a system POV.
To date, I have not found the need to add or take away anything within the system's core principles and concepts, nor have I have found one inconsistancy within the system, or been able to find a situation it didn't have an answer for.

But I guess the answer really depends on how one defines 'complete'. WCK was designed to strip away the ideas of styles and focus more on maximum efficiency as a human fighter (vs. animal styles of the time) based on an understanding of Time/Space/Energy and gravity. In that, it is complete.

Others may argue that WCK isn't complete because it may not have certain 'tachniques' in it's forms or application, or that it lacks a ground game as viewed from a BJJ perspective. To me, this is stripping away what WCK is really about and looking at it from a shapes-only POV. Again, this would be a different definition of 'complete' than how I view it :)

[tigershorty]

On paper, Wing Chun seems to have complete, thought-out, simple concepts. (this is the romanticized part of wing chun that gives the false ego and gets people in trouble)

I would argue that being perfect on paper is only half of the equation.
Being a complete system (as complete as anything can be with so many variables) would involve having training methods that make the student skilled at performing the concepts in a real situation over and over. (given the student/teacher is capable)

The elephant in the room is that if wing chun is complete, then why are the majority of wing chun students/teachers so embarrassingly bad? Rhetorical, any reason you can come up with is probably true.

I do like Wong Shun Leung's take on wing chun. The system itself is pretty much perfect, but the student could always find new ways to become better at it.

But who really cares about a "complete system" if a 1 year MMA student can beat your ass after 15 years of wing chun lessons?

[GlennR]

Just thought I would ask this question..

Reading the history of Wing Chun, it was designed to be learned in a very short amount of time and was designed to help a person beat another specific person.

The "founder" was trained in a southern style of kung fu and then distilled it to be learned in that one year time of hard training. Looking at other southern styles you see many of the same concepts there as well, although not as much time is spent on them in some cases.

So do you think that Wing Chun, was a sort of "kung fu combatives" that was meat and potatoes of it's parent system of the easy to learn apply techniques, or do you think that it was designed to be a whole comprehensive system.

IMO Opinion its what it says in the "legend"
A quick to learn (if taught and trained properly) self defense system to get you out of trouble in a self defense situation... thats it

What is isnt, is a combat sport style that can mix it with the combat sport styles

[GlennR]

I do like Wong Shun Leung's take on wing chun. The system itself is pretty much perfect, but the student could always find new ways to become better at it.

Why is the system perfect?


But who really cares about a "complete system" if a 1 year MMA student can beat your ass after 15 years of wing chun lessons?


And thats what no one seems willing or able to answer

[YouKnowWho]

this would be a different definition of 'complete' than how I view it :)

There is a difference between

- do I have it? and
- do I need it?

If you live in NYC, you may not need a car and your life will be "complete" without it. If you live in Bastrop, Texas, you will need a car. Your life will not be "complete" without it.

When you see someone did a "flying knee", you may want to do it too. Can you live without "flying knee?" Of course you can. The question is, "Why don't you just collect the flying knee into your toolbox?" The day that you die, you can tell your students, "Our style didn't have flying knee before but it has now because I brought it into our system."

[Wayfaring]

But I guess the answer really depends on how one defines 'complete'. WCK was designed to strip away the ideas of styles and focus more on maximum efficiency as a human fighter (vs. animal styles of the time) based on an understanding of Time/Space/Energy and gravity. In that, it is complete.

As a striking art, yes. On the ground, there's nothing less efficient than a fish out of water. And the vast majority of WCK practitioners are exactly that on the ground.


Others may argue that WCK isn't complete because it may not have certain 'tachniques' in it's forms or application, or that it lacks a ground game as viewed from a BJJ perspective. To me, this is stripping away what WCK is really about and looking at it from a shapes-only POV. Again, this would be a different definition of 'complete' than how I view it :)
WCK does lack a ground game. That is factual, not opinion, viewpoint, or whatever. I'm really not sure at all what a "shapes-only POV" is. Does a WCK practitioner sucking on the ground have a particular shape? What is the shape of suckage?

If you can't acknowledge weaknesses then you really can't identify and take advantages of strengths either.

[tigershorty]

Why is the system perfect?


But who really cares about a "complete system" if a 1 year MMA student can beat your ass after 15 years of wing chun lessons?

And thats what no one seems willing or able to answer

perfect, because, not much could be added or taken away from it conceptually to improve the system's logic or reasoning. (that being said, i have met wing chun "sifus" who have little to no concepts in their training. so that's a whatever, too.)

as far as no one being able or willing to answer- i'll take a stab at it. Wing Chun does the fast route in explaining concepts that take most martial artists a lot of hard knocks to learn. Wing Chun bypasses this and backs up everything with reasoning. This allows for a bunch of n00bs to come onto a forum and talk great kung fu game, but they can't fight. Their martial arts knowledge is conceptually high where other martial arts are concerned (usually comparing crap against crap) but they can't go down to an MMA or boxing school and get into the ring. They forgot their entire 101 lesson with the yin yang. Mind AND Body.

also, please stop editing my posts sehing73. you're a mod, not my mother.

[GlennR]

perfect, because, not much could be added or taken away from it conceptually to improve the system's logic or reasoning. (that being said, i have met wing chun "sifus" who have little to no concepts in their training. so that's a whatever, too.)

Not wanting to be argumentative, but "because" isnt an answer. I hear this, WC is perfect thing all the time, but im yet to have anyone prove it.


as far as no one being able or willing to answer- i'll take a stab at it. Wing Chun does the fast route in explaining concepts that take most martial artists a lot of hard knocks to learn. Wing Chun bypasses this and backs up everything with reasoning. This allows for a bunch of n00bs to come onto a forum and talk great kung fu game, but they can't fight. Their martial arts knowledge is conceptually high where other martial arts are concerned (usually comparing crap against crap) but they can't go down to an MMA or boxing school and get into the ring. They forgot their entire 101 lesson with the yin yang. Mind AND Body.


Yep fair call, but its assuming that all the concepts are correct to begin with. Theories are great until they dont work

[tigershorty]

Not wanting to be argumentative, but "because" isnt an answer. I hear this, WC is perfect thing all the time, but im yet to have anyone prove it.



Yep fair call, but its assuming that all the concepts are correct to begin with. Theories are great until they dont work

not being able to prove it was my point. if it's perfect on paper, but if you can't perform what the perfect concepts/theories state then how complete is a system?

the lack of ground training is easily dismissed in wing chun because the theories state how to avoid such a time-frame, but most wing chun people are going to get sacked and end up on the ground.

[LoneTiger108]

But I guess the answer really depends on how one defines 'complete'. WCK was designed to strip away the ideas of styles and focus more on maximum efficiency as a human fighter (vs. animal styles of the time) based on an understanding of Time/Space/Energy and gravity. In that, it is complete.

So, what exactly does 'define' a complete Martial Art? Surely you are not suggesting an 'empty hand' art is complete?? Karate is not complete.


Is

- boxing complete?
- Judo complete?
- BJJ complete?
- ...

There exist no "complete" MA system on this planet

Are you actually being serious???

These 'sports' you list are just that. Sport. Martial Sport, if you prefer. All 'designed' or updated in the last century to enable a safe 'competing' platform. Don't confuse them with Martial Arts!!!

I will offer my definition of 'complete' and see if anyone else can add to my idea. I believe a complete Martial Art must have representation of various areas of practise that help develop us as human beings, not just to fight for fighting sake, but to defend ourselves, our loved ones and the weaker/less healthy members of society. We do this by training people in a number of ways:

1. Form practise. Solo training to enhance technical understanding and basic foundation movements key to a systems development. Many forms have had individual input, becoming more of a 'stylistic' representation of said person/s. This isn't a bad thing, as long as the system knowledge is not sacrificed and lost.

2. Interactive practise. Call it sparring if you prefer! But when you train with a partner to develop your skill, this is 'interactive martial play'. It is our Chisau/Looksau/Gorsau and Sansau platform. But only if you remove the 'competitive' ego driven nature most younger students seem to have these days lol!

3. Equipment practise. Take our Wooden Man as an example, it is unique to our system because of it's scientific design but common in almost all other Chinese Martial Arts as an apparatus that assists in power development. Just like hitting a tree, wall bag, makiwara board or modern boxing pad. Equipment is key to actually feeling contact without injuries.

4. Weaponry practice. I know it's an old cliche and many may disagree, but without weaponry training you're not really training a 'Martial' Art. We are lucky in Wing Chun that we hold two key weapons that enhance our short and long range fighting skill. One of the only Chinese Systems that has detailed knowedge of both imho using only 2 base weapons rather than the original 18 Lohan designs.

5. Cultural practice. Whether it be BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai or Judo every art has it's origins and history and just learning a little about theoriginal culture of any give Martial Art may help join a few dots together. Wing Chun is know to be able to 'talk the fight' due to our basic concepts and if two Sifus meet they have a language and culture they can share, before they even cross hands.

Now, put all that together in a short period of time. It isn't difficult to see how this forms a complete understanding of the Wing Chun system, and if you are honestly missing anything here, go find someone that can help you because this is as complete as any Martial Art need to be imho.

This is the very reason we still exist as a system. This is why I find it difficult to watch people 'add' things like Escrima, or BJJ to a Wing Chun curriculum. We are as complete as we can be, and most if not all the hard work has already been done by the ancestors. All we have to do is continue and Wing Chun will still be here in another thousand years :)

[GlennR]

So, what exactly does 'define' a complete Martial Art? Surely you are not suggesting an 'empty hand' art is complete?? Karate is not complete.

Walk into a Kyokushin Dojo and suggest their MA is "incomplete"




Are you actually being serious???

I think you should answer that question yourself


These 'sports' you list are just that. Sport. Martial Sport, if you prefer. All 'designed' or updated in the last century to enable a safe 'competing' platform. Don't confuse them with Martial Arts!!!

God thats offensive, and stupid as well. The fact that the arts you mention would 9 times out of 10 chew up and spit out a WC guy on the "streets" shows how nonsensical your ideas are


I will offer my definition of 'complete' and see if anyone else can add to my idea. I believe a complete Martial Art must have representation of various areas of practise that help develop us as human beings, not just to fight for fighting sake, but to defend ourselves, our loved ones and the weaker/less healthy members of society. We do this by training people in a number of ways:

We? So the "sports" you mention dont encourage the personal development of the practitioner and dont equip them to defend themselves or loved ones? Only "true" martial arts have a monopoly on this do they?


1. Form practise. Solo training to enhance technical understanding and basic foundation movements key to a systems development. Many forms have had individual input, becoming more of a 'stylistic' representation of said person/s. This isn't a bad thing, as long as the system knowledge is not sacrificed and lost.

Shadow boxing, mirror work and slow repetitive techniques to ingrain the movement.


2. Interactive practise. Call it sparring if you prefer! But when you train with a partner to develop your skill, this is 'interactive martial play'. It is our Chisau/Looksau/Gorsau and Sansau platform. But only if you remove the 'competitive' ego driven nature most younger students seem to have these days lol!

Sparring & partner drills


3. Equipment practise. Take our Wooden Man as an example, it is unique to our system because of it's scientific design but common in almost all other Chinese Martial Arts as an apparatus that assists in power development. Just like hitting a tree, wall bag, makiwara board or modern boxing pad. Equipment is key to actually feeling contact without injuries.

Heavy bag, focus mitts, thai pads and kick shields


4. Weaponry practice. I know it's an old cliche and many may disagree, but without weaponry training you're not really training a 'Martial' Art. We are lucky in Wing Chun that we hold two key weapons that enhance our short and long range fighting skill. One of the only Chinese Systems that has detailed knowedge of both imho using only 2 base weapons rather than the original 18 Lohan designs.

So the styles with more weapons and forms are more complete than WC?


5. Cultural practice. Whether it be BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai or Judo every art has it's origins and history and just learning a little about theoriginal culture of any give Martial Art may help join a few dots together. Wing Chun is know to be able to 'talk the fight' due to our basic concepts and if two Sifus meet they have a language and culture they can share, before they even cross hands.


Tell the Thai's there is no culture in MT (whats the Ram Muay for?), the Japanese there is no culture in JJ or Karate, Brazilians BJJ..... do you see how condescending you sound Spencer?


Now, put all that together in a short period of time. It isn't difficult to see how this forms a complete understanding of the Wing Chun system, and if you are honestly missing anything here, go find someone that can help you because this is as complete as any Martial Art need to be imho.

PLENTY of chinese martial artists view WC as an incomplete system due to its lack of forms and techniques in comparison to theirs. Using your logic they are right.... your thoughts?


This is the very reason we still exist as a system. This is why I find it difficult to watch people 'add' things like Escrima, or BJJ to a Wing Chun curriculum. We are as complete as we can be, and most if not all the hard work has already been done by the ancestors. All we have to do is continue and Wing Chun will still be here in another thousand years :)

Yip Man changed and added/discarded things.... i for one hope he wont be the last

[GlennR]

not being able to prove it was my point. if it's perfect on paper, but if you can't perform what the perfect concepts/theories state then how complete is a system?

Yep good point. Assuming its "perfect" but the concepts are hard to implement, then how complete is it


the lack of ground training is easily dismissed in wing chun because the theories state how to avoid such a time-frame, but most wing chun people are going to get sacked and end up on the ground.

Yep again, notice how quiet the forum is in response to this

Though God bless Spencer for his two bobs worth ;)

[Dragonzbane76]

This is the very reason we still exist as a system. This is why I find it difficult to watch people 'add' things like Escrima, or BJJ to a Wing Chun curriculum. We are as complete as we can be, and most if not all the hard work has already been done by the ancestors. All we have to do is continue and Wing Chun will still be here in another thousand years
__________________


Small fact of nature "that which does not evolve dies" if it is not striving to improve and add different things then it is dying.
Im sorry to break your bubble and this has been pounded into the ground, but wc and for that matter tcma does not have a system for ground. But neither does bjj or wrestling have a full understanding of striking.

[Wayfaring]

To date, I have not found the need to add or take away anything within the system's core principles and concepts, nor have I have found one inconsistancy within the system, or been able to find a situation it didn't have an answer for.

So I'm picking on you a little bit here Jonathan regarding this post. And my caveat to this is I know you guys just did a seminar on using WCK to address boxer/mma fighter approaches and grappler approaches which I think is absolutely awesome and what should be happening.

"haven't been able to find a situation it didn't have an answer for".

Here are two situations:

1) Mount
2) Back Mount

What are the WCK system POV answers for these? How do you handle it if you get there?

So for comparison sake, I've seldom heard BJJ make claims about it being a complete system, that it addresses every eventuality. Well, actually maybe only direct members of the Gracie family, and usually the ones that aren't fighting.

[Wayfaring]

But neither does bjj or wrestling have a full understanding of striking.

Wrestlers are many times some of the worst strikers ever. They really push their punches and have a hard time learning to throw them correctly. Also, BJJ players are often very bad at defending wrestling takedowns despite the clinch/ground focus.

[LoneTiger108]

Hopefully this will be my last post on this thread, as I think I have said enough. Some of these negative comments just needed a response! ;)


Walk into a Kyokushin Dojo and suggest their MA is "incomplete"

Translate 'Kyokushin' for us all because you are so off the mark it makes me smile... actually this is a perfect example of what I am trying to put across here.

"Kyokushin kaikan (極真会館) is a style of stand-up, full contact karate, founded in 1964 by Korean-Japanese karate master Masutatsu Oyama"

In other words, a new creation designed to promote 'sport' competition.


God thats offensive, and stupid as well. The fact that the arts you mention would 9 times out of 10 chew up and spit out a WC guy on the "streets" shows how nonsensical your ideas are

Really? I think your response is very offensive! lol!

Whatever I have written here is meant to be discussed, no offence is intended dude so try re-reading it all again...


We? So the "sports" you mention dont encourage the personal development of the practitioner and dont equip them to defend themselves or loved ones? Only "true" martial arts have a monopoly on this do they?

Oh! Did I actually say that?? No. The question I am addressing is what makes a system, or more specifically our Wing Chun system, COMPLETE.


Shadow boxing, mirror work and slow repetitive techniques to ingrain the movement.

This is not what structured 'form' is. Form isn't FREESTYLE. So unless Jack Dempsey passed on his specific shadow boxing combos and such in a set pattern, you are clutching at straws with this one imho.


Sparring & partner drills

Now you are on the money :)


Heavy bag, focus mitts, thai pads and kick shields

I think I covered that. But again, you are spot on.


So the styles with more weapons and forms are more complete than WC?

Ah! here you crash and burn lol!! And no, this is not what I am saying with regards to the more weapons you have the more complete your system.


Tell the Thai's there is no culture in MT (whats the Ram Muay for?), the Japanese there is no culture in JJ or Karate, Brazilians BJJ..... do you see how condescending you sound Spencer?

Again dude, what the hell are you reading?? I do get worried when people that shout about how great they are seem to not be able to read simple posts. You have totally got the wrong impression I was aiming to put across, so please READ AGAIN!!


PLENTY of chinese martial artists view WC as an incomplete system due to its lack of forms and techniques in comparison to theirs. Using your logic they are right.... your thoughts?

Plenty of other Chinese Martial Artists? Really? C'mon, you may as well drop their names...


Yip Man changed and added/discarded things.... i for one hope he wont be the last

Ip Man was a scholar and Martial Artist (according to his family) so I can only presume that he knew exactly what he was doing!! Which is so much more than I can say about others. And FWIW I also hope Wing Chun evolves because that is it's nature. It is also why we are named Wing Chun.

But you would know this if you practised the system wouldn't you?

[m1k3]

I will offer my definition of 'complete' and see if anyone else can add to my idea. I believe a complete Martial Art must have representation of various areas of practise that help develop us as human beings, not just to fight for fighting sake, but to defend ourselves, our loved ones and the weaker/less healthy members of society.

So to be a complete martial art it must be built on an ethical platform? Which one? They are not all the same you know. Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, how about "Ein Volk, Ein Furher!".


Don't confuse them with Martial Arts!!!

Here we get into the definition thing again as to what is martial. I don't see current "martial arts" as be martial any more. They have little use on the modern battlefield and their ineffectiveness was clearly demonstrated when large numbers of "martial artists" were defeated by soldiers with bolt action rifles, modern rifles makes it even worse. To be honest I don't see this martial arts as having been effective even way back when. Dueling arts do not lend themselves to large unit based warfare even going back as far as the Greeks. They only becomes effective if unit cohesion breaks down and it turns into melee fighting. If the units are well trained that doesn't happen very often.

If you get to draw your line in the sand then I get to draw mine. :)

[free2flow]

This is the very reason we still exist as a system. This is why I find it difficult to watch people 'add' things like Escrima, or BJJ to a Wing Chun curriculum. We are as complete as we can be, and most if not all the hard work has already been done by the ancestors. All we have to do is continue and Wing Chun will still be here in another thousand years :)

Fortunately I got the chance practice/play with experienced practitioneers of the arts you mentioned above. My conclusion, I wish I have the skill level of the WC and BJJ guy in addition to my skill in Eskrima. I know you're already an advanced WC guy, so I really hope on of these days you explore and experience the benefits of cross-training. In my case, it helped me understand more of my primary art (eskrima), it's strengths and more importantly "borrow" pieces from other arts to rectify my eskrima's vulnerabilities.

[JPinAZ]

As a striking art, yes. On the ground, there's nothing less efficient than a fish out of water. And the vast majority of WCK practitioners are exactly that on the ground.

WCK does lack a ground game. That is factual, not opinion, viewpoint, or whatever. I'm really not sure at all what a "shapes-only POV" is. Does a WCK practitioner sucking on the ground have a particular shape? What is the shape of suckage?

If you can't acknowledge weaknesses then you really can't identify and take advantages of strengths either.

Are you saying none of WC's concepts/principles work on the ground?
Also, can you say you understand all of WCK's fighting ideas to answer?

My whole point was about perspective of those asking the question and how they define the words 'complete' and 'system', as well as of those that answer. It's not a simple question because too many people view the words 'complete' and 'system' so differently.

FWIW, I was careful to say "or that it lacks a ground game as viewed from a BJJ perspective." for a reason. I knew this would come up and there was a strong chance someone would say "Well, WCK doesn't have a ground game (like BJJ), so it's incomplete" No, WCK does not train a ground game like BJJ does, and I'm not arguing it does. We both know that would be silly and I never intended to even imply it.

[Frost]

So, what exactly does 'define' a complete Martial Art? Surely you are not suggesting an 'empty hand' art is complete?? Karate is not complete.



Are you actually being serious???

These 'sports' you list are just that. Sport. Martial Sport, if you prefer. All 'designed' or updated in the last century to enable a safe 'competing' platform. Don't confuse them with Martial Arts!!!

I will offer my definition of 'complete' and see if anyone else can add to my idea. I believe a complete Martial Art must have representation of various areas of practise that help develop us as human beings, not just to fight for fighting sake, but to defend ourselves, our loved ones and the weaker/less healthy members of society. We do this by training people in a number of ways:

1. Form practise. Solo training to enhance technical understanding and basic foundation movements key to a systems development. Many forms have had individual input, becoming more of a 'stylistic' representation of said person/s. This isn't a bad thing, as long as the system knowledge is not sacrificed and lost.

2. Interactive practise. Call it sparring if you prefer! But when you train with a partner to develop your skill, this is 'interactive martial play'. It is our Chisau/Looksau/Gorsau and Sansau platform. But only if you remove the 'competitive' ego driven nature most younger students seem to have these days lol!

3. Equipment practise. Take our Wooden Man as an example, it is unique to our system because of it's scientific design but common in almost all other Chinese Martial Arts as an apparatus that assists in power development. Just like hitting a tree, wall bag, makiwara board or modern boxing pad. Equipment is key to actually feeling contact without injuries.

4. Weaponry practice. I know it's an old cliche and many may disagree, but without weaponry training you're not really training a 'Martial' Art. We are lucky in Wing Chun that we hold two key weapons that enhance our short and long range fighting skill. One of the only Chinese Systems that has detailed knowedge of both imho using only 2 base weapons rather than the original 18 Lohan designs.

5. Cultural practice. Whether it be BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai or Judo every art has it's origins and history and just learning a little about theoriginal culture of any give Martial Art may help join a few dots together. Wing Chun is know to be able to 'talk the fight' due to our basic concepts and if two Sifus meet they have a language and culture they can share, before they even cross hands.

Now, put all that together in a short period of time. It isn't difficult to see how this forms a complete understanding of the Wing Chun system, and if you are honestly missing anything here, go find someone that can help you because this is as complete as any Martial Art need to be imho.

This is the very reason we still exist as a system. This is why I find it difficult to watch people 'add' things like Escrima, or BJJ to a Wing Chun curriculum. We are as complete as we can be, and most if not all the hard work has already been done by the ancestors. All we have to do is continue and Wing Chun will still be here in another thousand years :)

Nice to see that those that don’t spar or fight and don’t even have full time schools can still tell the rest of us what a martial art is or is not :)

Its also telling that most guys coming from this complete school of kung fu get their backsides handed to them in full contact environments…the ones that don’t seem willing to adopt in and learn from other styles (like Alan Orr and Phil)

[LoneTiger108]

So to be a complete martial art it must be built on an ethical platform? Which one? They are not all the same you know. Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, how about "Ein Volk, Ein Furher!".

No I'm not saying anyone HAS to do anything, I was expressing my belief (which by the way is not any of the Religions/Leadership groups you mention!)

I guess I was writing quickly and simply expressing my disappointment in the fact that many guys I have met and talked to seem to take up Martial Arts these days to 'start' fights and test themselves, rather than when I was a kid who just wanted to be a better human being.


Here we get into the definition thing again as to what is martial. I don't see current "martial arts" as be martial any more.

In fact I totally agree with your view, especially in respect to modern warfare and weaponry development. But does this also mean that you under appreciate the weaponry tha existed in Martial Arts 100/500/1000 years ago?

Our pole and knife practises are deep rooted in older traditions FME and this is all I am suggetsing here in relation to other Martial Arts that do not include ANY weaponry of such in their training... like BJJ and boxing for example.

[LoneTiger108]

I know you're already an advanced WC guy, so I really hope on of these days you explore and experience the benefits of cross-training.

I think this is what I was trying to share here (and I thought I wouldn't say anymore lol!)

For me, Wing Chun is ALREADY a system of cross-training imho as I view cross-training as covering the areas of practise I previously mentioned.

[JPinAZ]

So I'm picking on you a little bit here Jonathan regarding this post. And my caveat to this is I know you guys just did a seminar on using WCK to address boxer/mma fighter approaches and grappler approaches which I think is absolutely awesome and what should be happening.

"haven't been able to find a situation it didn't have an answer for".

Here are two situations:

1) Mount
2) Back Mount

What are the WCK system POV answers for these? How do you handle it if you get there?

So for comparison sake, I've seldom heard BJJ make claims about it being a complete system, that it addresses every eventuality. Well, actually maybe only direct members of the Gracie family, and usually the ones that aren't fighting.

Haha, I get where you're coming from. I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying so I guess I'll bounce it back at you.
When someone has mount or back mount, what is their intention? (well, besides the obvious of GNP or submission) What is a grappler trying to achieve in these positions, and how does he even get there? Are things like leverage, space, position, hip control, COG, etc important? How does someone from a 'BJJ perspective' deal with these things? Is the answer "oh, I use techniques X, Q, and Z", or is it really more about structure, position, leverage and COG control?
Is BJJ just a bunch of techniques, or is there something a little deeper? :)
This was my point.

If people are going to ask, and answer, the question of a 'system' being 'complete', I think we should define both terms first so we know what each other are talking about. Or, we may get people talking about flying knees and if they are part of the system or not ;) (no offense meant YKW)
IMO, thinking "well, System X doesn't have Technique Z, so then it can't be complete" is really missing the boat on what WCK is.

[LoneTiger108]

Nice to see that those that don’t spar or fight and don’t even have full time schools can still tell the rest of us what a martial art is or is not :)

It's still nicer to see those unwilling participants of a 'discussion' seem to think that running a 'fulltime school' automatically makes you a Martial Artist! :D

Why don't you comment on my post and refer to what I suggest, rather than aim a personal attack my way? So manly of you...


Its also telling that most guys coming from this complete school of kung fu get their backsides handed to them in full contact environments…

Wow! A new clique word... 'Full Contact Environments'

How about putting a long pole in the hands of a full contact fighter and asking them to spar with, say, Phillip Bayer? Or even Alan Orr? How do you think your fighter will get on there?

Just silly points that really have no place in my head to be honest.

I do not want to train 'competitively' nowadays, as I am more interested in passing on what I know to be solid Wing Chun skills to the next generations.

And FWIW I HAVE adopted a mindset from other 'sports'. I was an original Karate Kid, I love athletics, and I love boxing and train my body and have adopted certain traits from my younger competitive days, but I haven't adopted any other fighting 'style' or 'system' because I am very happy with where I am and what I hold.

A complete system of Martial Art.

In my own, non-fighting, inexperienced, non-business like opinion of course. :)

[free2flow]

I think this is what I was trying to share here (and I thought I wouldn't say anymore lol!)

lol, my bad. i didn't read it that way.


For me, Wing Chun is ALREADY a system of cross-training imho as I view cross-training as covering the areas of practise I previously mentioned.
For me, cross-training means going to other arts that are recognized as the best in their area of specialization. For example, I cross-train in BJJ to find out the problems an expert ground fighter can impose on me and not just a fellow eskrimador that know how to take a guy down and apply some locks. Hope I'm making some sense to you :).

[couch]

Why does it have to be either-or?

Why do I have to choose between training for sport (pressure-testing my skills in a safe environment) and training for the street (role-play and drills). AND why can't both these arenas cross over with each other?

[LoneTiger108]

Hope I'm making some sense to you :).

Yes you are.

I will share something with you. I actually have no problem in any Wing Chun student or Sifu learning other arts. It's just human nature to investigate as much as we can. I done the same, before I started Wing Chun.

But I do have a problem with information from these other arts bleeding into the Wing Chun itself, and then attempting to sell the final product as a new variation of Wing Chun. I prefer to say it how it is. For example, this is Wing Chun with Escrima. The European Wing Tsun guys are big on this, and they seem to enjoy themselves which for me is all that matters in the end. But they keep the two systems separate. Yes, they have similarities, but you will know what I mean.

Now let me ask you this:

If I was to share with you a double stick method that 'seemed familiar' to you because of your Escrima experience, but it simply was not within the methods you knew, could you accept that this was Wing Chun Double Stick?? Have you ever seen or heard of the double stick methods of my Sigung? Or my Sifu? probably not.

This is where it gets complicated imho, because the popularity and excellence of the Filipino Arts has sort of shunned my lineage into silence because we have a double stick method that has been passed on from my Sigung, and he never studied any Filipino Arts! He was a knife man, and the way we utilize our blades is different than the Filipino way, and this too is reflected in our double stick practices... so why would I take up Escrima? Can you see what I mean?

Phew! I will take a breath now! :(

[m1k3]

Spencer, this is getting interesting. :)


In fact I totally agree with your view, especially in respect to modern warfare and weaponry development. But does this also mean that you under appreciate the weaponry tha existed in Martial Arts 100/500/1000 years ago?

Our pole and knife practises are deep rooted in older traditions FME and this is all I am suggetsing here in relation to other Martial Arts that do not include ANY weaponry of such in their training... like BJJ and boxing for example.

It's not the weaponry I'm questioning, it's the training methods. How you train to fight 1 on 1 or small group vs. small group is very different than how you train to fight a large set piece battle using thousands of men.

A good example could be the long pole or long spear. When used in a more personal combat situation will have a different flavor than the long spear being used by 500 men in heavy armor and large shields. They will be fighting and moving as a group, the front row responsible for shield work and some short sword and the long spears be used by the 2nd and 3rd rows to extend out from the shields. The whole "style" of use and footwork will be different.

Now once the formation was broken and the battle was reduce to more one on one fighting then your "martial artists" may actually have an advantage.

[free2flow]

Now let me ask you this:

If I was to share with you a double stick method that 'seemed familiar' to you because of your Escrima experience, but it simply was not within the methods you knew, could you accept that this was Wing Chun Double Stick?? Have you ever seen or heard of the double stick methods of my Sigung? Or my Sifu? probably not.
(
Yes, I will. I will always think there's still methods out there that are not yet discovered by many. Honestly, the name is not my main concern. If it's effective then that's all that matters. I'm more concern how can I learn it and if not possible, learn how to deal with it.



This is where it gets complicated imho, because the popularity and excellence of the Filipino Arts has sort of shunned my lineage into silence because we have a double stick method that has been passed on from my Sigung, and he never studied any Filipino Arts! He was a knife man, and the way we utilize our blades is different than the Filipino way, and this too is reflected in our double stick practices... so why would I take up Escrima? Can you see what I mean?
(
That's fair and I understand where you're coming from. You can still cross-train to test it out if it works well outside of it's ways.



Phew! I will take a breath now! :(
:-).

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[Yoshiyahu]

In retrospect...there is no such thing as a complete fighting system. Nor is there a such thing as a superior fighting system.

There are three facts

1.Some people are naturally talented fighters even with out martial training
2.Some people will only amount to mediorce fighting ability even with years of training
3.Some people are more skilled than others no matter what art you know

If Your WC doesn't work on BJJ, Karate, Boxing, Muay Thai or someone other art. Its not really the art that is better. Its the person skill level your fighting. Those who practice fighting will have more skills at fighting. Those who practice forms, drills, and chi sau will be more skilled at those things.

Case and Point: Someone you fought who beat the hell out of you. Try and get them to do chi sau or push hands with you. Gurantee you will dominant them at those two things. No matter how skilled they are at fighting.

The more familiar you are with chi sau or tuishou the better you will be. Someone who has been doing it longer will better than guy who just started learning a year ago...The same is true for fighting. The more you fight, the better you get at it. Some people are just naturally more skilled at fighting than others!


So when you fight and win remember its because you were more skilled than person you fought and not because WC is superior to what their doing...A good Jeet Kune Do guy who is extremely skilled at fighting can definitely beat any Sifu with Zero Fight experience outside of chi sau!

[Frost]

It's still nicer to see those unwilling participants of a 'discussion' seem to think that running a 'fulltime school' automatically makes you a Martial Artist! :D

Why don't you comment on my post and refer to what I suggest, rather than aim a personal attack my way? So manly of you...



Wow! A new clique word... 'Full Contact Environments'

How about putting a long pole in the hands of a full contact fighter and asking them to spar with, say, Phillip Bayer? Or even Alan Orr? How do you think your fighter will get on there?

Just silly points that really have no place in my head to be honest.

I do not want to train 'competitively' nowadays, as I am more interested in passing on what I know to be solid Wing Chun skills to the next generations.

And FWIW I HAVE adopted a mindset from other 'sports'. I was an original Karate Kid, I love athletics, and I love boxing and train my body and have adopted certain traits from my younger competitive days, but I haven't adopted any other fighting 'style' or 'system' because I am very happy with where I am and what I hold.

A complete system of Martial Art.

In my own, non-fighting, inexperienced, non-business like opinion of course. :)
others have pulled your post apart...i see my point to be honest no offence but you wouldn't get my point of view
Put a long pole in paul daleys hand and im sure he would most trained sifu including you, the dog brothers showed what happens to people who dont fight but think they know about weapons when they face an aggressive opponent used to taking hits

[GlennR]

Hopefully this will be my last post on this thread, as I think I have said enough. Some of these negative comments just needed a response! ;)

Priceless. Youre labeling certain MA's (that arent your flavour) as sports and dont find that negative or offensive to the practitioners? And your calling me negative


Translate 'Kyokushin' for us all because you are so off the mark it makes me smile... actually this is a perfect example of what I am trying to put across here.

"Kyokushin kaikan (極真会館) is a style of stand-up, full contact karate, founded in 1964 by Korean-Japanese karate master Masutatsu Oyama"

In other words, a new creation designed to promote 'sport' competition.


Gee, he can use Google. Congrats Spencer. But re read it again and TALK to a KK guy and youll see it as way way more than a sport



Really? I think your response is very offensive! lol!


Youre such a knob. I respond directly to your ideas (not personal) and you twist it to make it seem im attacking you personally..... something you kick and scream about when it doesnt suit you


Whatever I have written here is meant to be discussed, no offence is intended dude so try re-reading it all again...


Ok gotcha, so youre just an idiot and you didnt mean for it to be offensive



Oh! Did I actually say that?? No. The question I am addressing is what makes a system, or more specifically our Wing Chun system, COMPLETE.

No, but you still didnt answer my question. You didnt make the debating team at school did you. You used the other arts as references so dont get your panties in a knot if you get picked up on it


This is not what structured 'form' is. Form isn't FREESTYLE. So unless Jack Dempsey passed on his specific shadow boxing combos and such in a set pattern, you are clutching at straws with this one imho.

Ahhhh, so by your way of thinking a short form is not as valid as a short form. Incidentally a jab, cross jab is about as systematic as you get. So Kulo isnt valid then??



Ah! here you crash and burn lol!! And no, this is not what I am saying with regards to the more weapons you have the more complete your system.

Answer the question, where is the "cut-off" then? 2 weapons seems low in comparison to some styles, or did WC get it "just right" like baby bears porridge?


Again dude, what the hell are you reading?? I do get worried when people that shout about how great they are seem to not be able to read simple posts. You have totally got the wrong impression I was aiming to put across, so please READ AGAIN!!


I Read it again and i stand by what i say.
You literally said that those styles were sports , not martial arts. What the hell are YOU reading?



Plenty of other Chinese Martial Artists? Really? C'mon, you may as well drop their names...

I dont fancy having a Google war of martial arts weaponry knowledge with you. Lets just say that you know im right



Ip Man was a scholar and Martial Artist (according to his family) so I can only presume that he knew exactly what he was doing!! Which is so much more than I can say about others. And FWIW I also hope Wing Chun evolves because that is it's nature. It is also why we are named Wing Chun.


Scholar? Do tell.

That gives good insight into you. You think that him being a scholar adds weight to his credibility as a Martial Artist (which you latch onto constantly).

Youre constantly trying to create some sort of elitism in regards to how people (in your opinion) should approach their martial art. And if they dont have the same mindset they are just doing a "sport"

Oh, and you dont want it to evolve, it would bring down your house of cards


But you would know this if you practised the system wouldn't you?

I "practiced" last night against some "sportsmen" for about an hour, after some incomplete padwork and non-martial art shadow boxing. We then had a discussion about how we wished we were scholars with the ability to use weapons that we arent allowed to carry............

[YouKnowWho]

Are you actually being serious???

These 'sports' you list are just that. Sport. Martial Sport, if you prefer. All 'designed' or updated in the last century to enable a safe 'competing' platform. Don't confuse them with Martial Arts!!!

Yes! I'm serious.

Are you saying "combat MA" is superior than "sport MA"? I don't know how you can "test" your combat skill without using a "safe sport environment".

You go to

- gloden glove boxing tournament to test your punching skill.
- kickboxing tournament to test your kick/punch skill.
- SC/Judo/wrestling tournament to test your grappling skill.
- Sanda/Sanshou tournament to test your kick/punch/throw skill.
- MMA tournament to test your kick/punch/lock/throw/ground skills.
- short weapon tournament to test your knife/sword skill.
- long weapon tournament to test your spear/staff/pole skill.

Without testing your skill against others MA styles, how will you know that you "have it" or you "don't have ut"? Is there another way to "test" your combat skill? Please share your method here?

[GlennR]

Yes! I'm serious.

Are you saying "combat MA" is superior than "sport MA"? I don't know how you can develpe your combat skill without through a "safe sport environment".

Ahhh, but your assuming he wants to develop his combat skill arent you ;)

[trubblman]

Just thought I would ask this question..

Reading the history of Wing Chun, it was designed to be learned in a very short amount of time and was designed to help a person beat another specific person.

The "founder" was trained in a southern style of kung fu and then distilled it to be learned in that one year time of hard training. Looking at other southern styles you see many of the same concepts there as well, although not as much time is spent on them in some cases.

So do you think that Wing Chun, was a sort of "kung fu combatives" that was meat and potatoes of it's parent system of the easy to learn apply techniques, or do you think that it was designed to be a whole comprehensive system.

Ripley: How many drops for you is this, lieutenant?
Gorman: Thirty-eight...(pause) Simulated.
Vasquez: How many combat drops?
Gorman: Uh, two. Including this one.

[YouKnowWho]

Ahhh, but your assuming he wants to develop his combat skill arent you ;)

I assume if he is not talking about "combat" then he must talk about "health", "performance", and "spiritual development".

- Are you a "perfect" health person?
- Are you a "perfect" performance person?
- Are you a "perfect" spiritual person?

The word "complete" will have no meaning at all. This is why I have to assume that this thread is talking about "combat" and "combat" only.

[YouKnowWho]

I will offer my definition of 'complete' and see if anyone else can add to my idea. I believe a complete Martial Art must have representation of various areas of practise that help develop us as human beings, not just to fight for fighting sake, but to defend ourselves, our loved ones and the weaker/less healthy members of society. We do this by training people in a number of ways:

1. Form practise. Solo training to enhance technical understanding and basic foundation movements key to a systems development. Many forms have had individual input, becoming more of a 'stylistic' representation of said person/s. This isn't a bad thing, as long as the system knowledge is not sacrificed and lost.

2. Interactive practise. Call it sparring if you prefer! But when you train with a partner to develop your skill, this is 'interactive martial play'. It is our Chisau/Looksau/Gorsau and Sansau platform. But only if you remove the 'competitive' ego driven nature most younger students seem to have these days lol!

3. Equipment practise. Take our Wooden Man as an example, it is unique to our system because of it's scientific design but common in almost all other Chinese Martial Arts as an apparatus that assists in power development. Just like hitting a tree, wall bag, makiwara board or modern boxing pad. Equipment is key to actually feeling contact without injuries.

4. Weaponry practice. I know it's an old cliche and many may disagree, but without weaponry training you're not really training a 'Martial' Art. We are lucky in Wing Chun that we hold two key weapons that enhance our short and long range fighting skill. One of the only Chinese Systems that has detailed knowedge of both imho using only 2 base weapons rather than the original 18 Lohan designs.

5. Cultural practice. Whether it be BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai or Judo every art has it's origins and history and just learning a little about theoriginal culture of any give Martial Art may help join a few dots together. Wing Chun is know to be able to 'talk the fight' due to our basic concepts and if two Sifus meet they have a language and culture they can share, before they even cross hands.
That's a good list indeed.

- solo training (polish),
- partner training (develope),
- equipment training (enhance),
- weapon training,
- cultureal training (not sure this is needed),

I also like to add

- tournament experience (test).

When someone said that someone has great skill, my teacher always said, "I don't know. I have never met that person in tournament."

[GlennR]

I assume if he is not talking about "combat" then he must talk about "health", "performance", and "spiritual development".

- Are you a "perfect" health person?
- Are you a "perfect" performance person?
- Are you a "perfect" spiritual person?

The word "complete" will have no meaning at all. This is why I have to assume that this thread is talking about "combat" and "combat" only.

Well ultimately, IMO , its all about combat. There is other pursuits that enhance health, performance and spirit... yoga would come to mind.
Without the combat aspect trained and tested its just not a MA.

[YouKnowWho]

Without the combat aspect trained and tested its just not a MA.

Agree with you 100% there. If this forum is not a "combat" forum, I won't even be here.

[anerlich]

rather than when I was a kid who just wanted to be a better human being.


Hmmm. No obvious improvement so far. How long before we should see this starting to kick in?

[Dragonzbane76]

Without testing your skill against others MA styles, how will you know that you "have it" or you "don't have ut"? Is there another way to "test" your combat skill? Please share your method here?


Yes im interested to hear this answer myself.

[free2flow]

the dog brothers showed what happens to people who dont fight but think they know about weapons when they face an aggressive opponent used to taking hits
yes, they definitely did!

[k gledhill]

Meats utilized in this video was carefully preserved and donated to the Ventura County Rescue Mission.

BCD / VT Knives (http://youtu.be/YW8nckzt-Bc)

The mentality of a Slaughterer / Butcher

[LoneTiger108]

others have pulled your post apart...i see my point to be honest no offence but you wouldn't get my point of view

Actually, one other and I think Glenda rather enjoys pulling my posts apart, so leave him be :p


Put a long pole in paul daleys hand and im sure he would most trained sifu including you, the dog brothers showed what happens to people who dont fight but think they know about weapons when they face an aggressive opponent used to taking hits

Sorry? Can you please explain how this is possible? You're talking of a competition again aren't you?

[k gledhill]

Modern equivalent of a pole / weapon can be found in any bar, a pool cue. You can use it as a BCD split in two, or as a pole technique. All about stabbing strikes....with full body weight and arms unified to a point in space.

Be warned you may kill people using this stabbing method.



Just to bring the tone back down here are some sexy soccer girls :D What league is this, must get cable channel...doh !

[LoneTiger108]

Priceless. Youre labeling certain MA's (that arent your flavour) as sports and dont find that negative or offensive to the practitioners? And your calling me negative

No I don't. Just as I have a high level of respect for track and field athletes and their training methods I consider them to be more elite than I am these days. You just can't help trying to put words in my mouth, but I'm getting used to that.


Gee, he can use Google. Congrats Spencer. But re read it again and TALK to a KK guy and youll see it as way way more than a sport

Okay I'm busted for using wikipedia, but you should really try to get to know someone better before suggesting who I should talk to. One of my elder kung fu bros was into Kyokushin in a big way and shared quite a few tricks with me too. he was also a power lifter and personal trainer, which helps.


Youre such a knob. I respond directly to your ideas (not personal) and you twist it to make it seem im attacking you personally..... something you kick and scream about when it doesnt suit you

Where I am from, calling someone a knob is not an endearing way to communicate. It's offensive. Playground behaviour I just aint interested in. But again, I'm getting used to that round here.


Ok gotcha, so youre just an idiot and you didnt mean for it to be offensive

Pot kettle black?


Ahhhh, so by your way of thinking a short form is not as valid as a short form. Incidentally a jab, cross jab is about as systematic as you get. So Kulo isnt valid then??

Again, I am confused. What are you reading?

There are no forms in Kulo WCK. There are sets. There is a big difference in the approach to training these sets than there is to Wing Chuns first form FME. This is WCK 101 mate!


Answer the question, where is the "cut-off" then? 2 weapons seems low in comparison to some styles, or did WC get it "just right" like baby bears porridge?

What weaponry do you practise exactly?

Not worth discussing if you don't practise any...


I Read it again and i stand by what i say.
You literally said that those styles were sports , not martial arts. What the hell are YOU reading?

Correct. AND I also said something about these sports actually having a culture relating to their origin, or was that not clear enough for you?

Anyone who has practised Muay Thai, as an example, will know of Krabi Krabong, no? They will learn more Thai terms than English, no? Have a more Thai approach to training, no? Even learn weaponry, no? This is what I mean by being open to learning about culture.

And it doesn't only have to be language or weapons! FWIW when I hosted a seminar with Braulio Estima and Roger Gracie they let me into a little 'secret' of theirs. Their training was superb. Their attitude and sportsmanship was superb. Their strength and skill was superb. But do you know what they put it all down to, apart from mat time and good peers???

Superb food. The 'Gracie Diet' as it has become known. Now, if you have learnt about that from the Gracies, I woudl say you have peeked through their own culture. Does anyone not see what I am saying here?


That gives good insight into you. You think that him being a scholar adds weight to his credibility as a Martial Artist (which you latch onto constantly).

No I don't. Again you misunderstand me.

As a scholar I mean that he was educated to a general standard in school (at least) and could read and write Chinese. Quite rare in Martial Art circles in those days. This simply means when he sat down and created and wrote his curriculums he could plan each individuals progression and monitor the more commercial type students.

You may do the same today, creating Individual Training Plans and such, but back in HK during the 1950's this was simply unheard of because most other commercial schools just taught the same stuff designed to cater for larger numbers. Obviously, this is the result of some research by myself into the culture of our Wing Chun system.

Something I can see you have had little time for, which is a shame considering how you constantly bang on about how much better your training is...


Youre constantly trying to create some sort of elitism in regards to how people (in your opinion) should approach their martial art.

So what yu are saying is that I am the same as almost every other person who posts here??

But at least I am proud of my own Wing Chun learning, as everyone else should be of theirs because we have inherited something I believe to be very special. And yes, if you take that as me saying Wing Chun is 'elite' then so be it.


I "practiced" last night against some "sportsmen" for about an hour, after some incomplete padwork and non-martial art shadow boxing. We then had a discussion about how we wished we were scholars with the ability to use weapons that we arent allowed to carry............

Good for you. I did too, but I can't call our training very 'sporty' because we have absolutely no interest in competing against eachother to win. And I personally think this is where you misunderstand me the most.

Sport Martial Art is about training to win in competitions.

Martial Art itself has many ways to train without ever stepping into a competition.

Neither way is superior. I firmly believe that. But you do not imho. You have the suffering of ego and that is just too bad loser... ;) :D

[LoneTiger108]

That's a good list indeed.

- solo training (polish),
- partner training (develope),
- equipment training (enhance),
- weapon training,
- cultureal training (not sure this is needed),

I also like to add

- tournament experience (test).

When someone said that someone has great skill, my teacher always said, "I don't know. I have never met that person in tournament."

Okay, I more than most understand some peoples avoidance of learning about others culture but we are Chines Martial Arts practitioners and I had a very traditional Sifu. Without showing interest, he would not teach you. End of.

As for tournaments, I have just never seen anything that is suitable for the way I personally practise Wing Chun. Not that I would compete anyhow nowadays because I don't believe that's the right image of Martial Arts I want to project to my own children.

And I'm pretty small and weak too, which doesn't help :o ;)

[Savi]

Speaking generally to the thread topic... Reality faces us with many challenges. It is up each individual to make what they can do work. If Wing Chun is a system, then by that literal description it is "complete". However, that does not mean it is all inclusive.

Our Solar System is indeed a system but considering it doesn't have every known object within the universe inside of it, does that mean it is not a complete system? Well then let's add neutron stars, black holes, white dwarfs, and whatever else our solar system doesn't have until it is "complete". Really? It is a solar system, not a universe system.

Wing Chun has an intentional design and purpose, but I highly doubt it is a system to represent ALL combat systems/styles/arts. It is another system of combat among many, guided by a philosophy and a science grounded upon the laws/principles of nature. It is a system consisting of many sub systems, just as each object within this solar system is a part of many smaller systems, all working in harmony within the whole of the Solar System.

If your Sifu hasn't told you how the WC you are being taught is supposed to be used and the psychology behind it, see if you can find those answers before a final conclusion is made on your assessment. If you fail using Wing Chun does that mean Wing Chun is the problem, or you? If you are not honest about your failures then you are not taking accountability either. Blaming the art, your Sifu, the culture, supposed secrets, or anything else but yourself, is a false perspective and mischaracterization in my opinion. Failure and Success always comes down to you.

If Wing Chun is based on principles, concepts, and theories, should those standards be replaced by your personal limitations - "do what works for you!" - or is the reality that you are not at the competency level of Wing Chun's scientific standard? My failures and achievements are my own. The goal is to make the Wing Chun you learn work against real and personal challenges, through its intended design and purpose, and that has to be at the forefront of your vision. If you haven't yet had that defined, I'd suggest that's one more thing to add on your "to do" list.

I read a lot of "do what works for you!" comments on this forum. Sorry to say, but the way I see it is Wing Chun isn't about "you". You can make it about yourself, but I can almost guarantee you will hit a dead end. What I connect with regarding Wing Chun is that lends itself so well to "Principle over Personality". If you want personality, stick to Facebook, the internet, your smart phones, your game systems, anything else that enhances and fulfills the need for ego gratification. Wing Chun was nor is designed for that purpose.

Dig deeper, past techniques, past labels and brands. If the science behind the art your Sifu is teaching [just/still] isn't resonating with you, then maybe it isn't for you OR maybe you should seek out a Sifu that can connect with how you learn. Wing Chun isn't for everybody, but least you were honest in your approach.

[Frost]

Actually, one other and I think Glenda rather enjoys pulling my posts apart, so leave him be :p



Sorry? Can you please explain how this is possible? You're talking of a competition again aren't you?

nope im talking about being used to facing an opponent looking to do you serious harm, with or without a weapon...i know who my money would be on and its not the guy whose claim to fame is doing lion dances and weapons demos at seni :)

[YouKnowWho]

As for tournaments, I have just never seen anything that is suitable for the way I personally practise Wing Chun.

You can also try long range weapon tournament to test your pole (staff) skill against other pole/staff/spear guys. 1 point to the arms and legs, 2 points to the rest of the body.

TCMA is like the chess game. You just can't play chess "solo". The fun is in the "playing".

[Wayfaring]

Are you saying none of WC's concepts/principles work on the ground?

I actually have had a high level of interest in this question and ensuing answers. I have investigated it over about the last 5 years. While your statement is too blanket and too absolute for me to say "yes", IMO there are a different set of fundamentals on the ground than stand up striking. The fish out of water statement really does apply. If you are not familiear with those fundamentals, then in my experience you "could" do the right thing on the ground, however, it's equally likely you could do the exact wrong thing on the ground, ensuing in your giving your opponent exactly what they need to finish the fight.

Let me ask a question back at you and repeat my question from the last post. Do you feel that WC's concepts and principles work on the ground without learning the fundamentals I'm speaking of and without practicing them?



Also, can you say you understand all of WCK's fighting ideas to answer?

No, which was why I asked you the question of what WCK's answer was to the following scenarios: 1) mount 2) back mount. Do you understand those terms enough to answer?



My whole point was about perspective of those asking the question and how they define the words 'complete' and 'system', as well as of those that answer. It's not a simple question because too many people view the words 'complete' and 'system' so differently.

FWIW, I was careful to say "or that it lacks a ground game as viewed from a BJJ perspective." for a reason. I knew this would come up and there was a strong chance someone would say "Well, WCK doesn't have a ground game (like BJJ), so it's incomplete" No, WCK does not train a ground game like BJJ does, and I'm not arguing it does. We both know that would be silly and I never intended to even imply it.
In my viewpoint the underlying question here is whether or not preventing entry into your space standing on your feet from a grappler's approach - i.e. takedown defenses is enough to label a system "complete". Is that a workable approach and can you do that? Sure. Can you 100% of the time avoid going to the ground? I am not so sure. Consider terrain constraints such as ice or a backstop. Consider getting knocked down by a sucker punch and mounted. So what degree of "complete" are we talking here?

[Wayfaring]

Speaking generally to the thread topic... Reality faces us with many challenges. It is up each individual to make what they can do work. If Wing Chun is a system, then by that literal description it is "complete". However, that does not mean it is all inclusive.

I would agree with this paragraph, and also extend the idea that all inclusive means that a system has to specialize in something, and thus has strengths and weaknesses as a system.

Some of this is just a difference in language. For example, consider dating. You meet the girl that has everything you want in a spouse and are to the point you are considering proposing. You might describe her as "the complete package". Is she perfect? No, but neither are you. But she does have everything you are looking for.



If you fail using Wing Chun does that mean Wing Chun is the problem, or you?
As a pragmatist, I tend to look to my own training practices as the problem, and modify them until I see success.

[JPinAZ]

I actually have had a high level of interest in this question and ensuing answers. I have investigated it over about the last 5 years. While your statement is too blanket and too absolute for me to say "yes", IMO there are a different set of fundamentals on the ground than stand up striking. The fish out of water statement really does apply. If you are not familiear with those fundamentals, then in my experience you "could" do the right thing on the ground, however, it's equally likely you could do the exact wrong thing on the ground, ensuing in your giving your opponent exactly what they need to finish the fight.?

I agree 100%


Let me ask a question back at you and repeat my question from the last post. Do you feel that WC's concepts and principles work on the ground without learning the fundamentals I'm speaking of and without practicing them.

Not the same way, and they all do not apply. But I would agree if you are saying having a good understanding and some experience of the ground game from another art's perspective is paramount in being able to deal with it. Otherwise it's just fantasy fu ;)


No, which was why I asked you the question of what WCK's answer was to the following scenarios: 1) mount 2) back mount. Do you understand those terms enough to answer?

Sure, I understand them perfectly and IMO back mount is the work place I want to be caught in :)


In my viewpoint the underlying question here is whether or not preventing entry into your space standing on your feet from a grappler's approach - i.e. takedown defenses is enough to label a system "complete". Is that a workable approach and can you do that? Sure. Can you 100% of the time avoid going to the ground? I am not so sure. Consider terrain constraints such as ice or a backstop. Consider getting knocked down by a sucker punch and mounted. So what degree of "complete" are we talking here?

HFY does have take down defenses (kius sau training covers this pretty well indepth supported with things like with CL, box and gate theory concepts, gravity , leverage, etc), but this is different than 'counter grappling' as a grappler would impy if that makes sense. And I am not foolish enough to think I can deny everyone from getting in my space and/or taking me down - but that is the goal in theory :)

And if I get taken down, I agree, I better have a decent understanding of what can happen there if I have any decent chance of safely getting back up.

When I say complete, I am speaking of of concepts, as well as understanding principles that are universal vs. just what's in my tool box if this makes sense? Sprawl defence against a takedown works great, but imo it breaks even the basic WCK ideas of centerline, and is more of a counter grappling. So while it works, and to a high degree, IMO it's not really WCK if it breaks the basic ideas on centerline and gravity. So, just adding it to your toolbox doesn't make it WCK, and not having it doesn't mean WCK is incomplete either. Make sense?

[GlennR]

No I don't. Just as I have a high level of respect for track and field athletes and their training methods I consider them to be more elite than I am these days. You just can't help trying to put words in my mouth, but I'm getting used to that.


How did i put words in your mouth? You just agreed with what i said about you!



Okay I'm busted for using wikipedia, but you should really try to get to know someone better before suggesting who I should talk to. One of my elder kung fu bros was into Kyokushin in a big way and shared quite a few tricks with me too. he was also a power lifter and personal trainer, which helps.


So your mate agrees with you that KK isnt an art? My KK friend ( i have one as well) who's been to Japan to train and fight in the world titles, would disagree with you instantly. Its very much an art to him



Where I am from, calling someone a knob is not an endearing way to communicate. It's offensive. Playground behaviour I just aint interested in. But again, I'm getting used to that round here.


Oh get over yourself Spencer, offending eachother is what we do best



Again, I am confused. What are you reading?

There are no forms in Kulo WCK. There are sets. There is a big difference in the approach to training these sets than there is to Wing Chuns first form FME. This is WCK 101 mate!

That was my point. Kulo only has sets, not forms... much like boxers shadow box and do drills on their own.
So (again, read carefully) are you saying that Kulo isnt a MA because it doesnt do forms?


What weaponry do you practise exactly?

Not worth discussing if you don't practise any...

Ive done a bit of escrima and thats it, so that a no.

So (once again by your logic) as you dont fight/spar, then you shouldnt discuss anything to do with actual combat?



Correct. AND I also said something about these sports actually having a culture relating to their origin, or was that not clear enough for you?

But not a culture that supports that style being an "art"


Anyone who has practised Muay Thai, as an example, will know of Krabi Krabong, no?

No, why would they? They are totally separate arts


They will learn more Thai terms than English, no? Have a more Thai approach to training, no? Even learn weaponry, no? This is what I mean by being open to learning about culture.

All maybes.


And it doesn't only have to be language or weapons! FWIW when I hosted a seminar with Braulio Estima and Roger Gracie they let me into a little 'secret' of theirs. Their training was superb. Their attitude and sportsmanship was superb. Their strength and skill was superb. But do you know what they put it all down to, apart from mat time and good peers???

Superb food. The 'Gracie Diet' as it has become known. Now, if you have learnt about that from the Gracies, I woudl say you have peeked through their own culture. Does anyone not see what I am saying here?

Youre saying that these guys have worked out that good healthy food helps with their training....... who would have thought!!



No I don't. Again you misunderstand me.

As a scholar I mean that he was educated to a general standard in school (at least) and could read and write Chinese. Quite rare in Martial Art circles in those days. This simply means when he sat down and created and wrote his curriculums he could plan each individuals progression and monitor the more commercial type students.

You may do the same today, creating Individual Training Plans and such, but back in HK during the 1950's this was simply unheard of because most other commercial schools just taught the same stuff designed to cater for larger numbers. Obviously, this is the result of some research by myself into the
culture of our Wing Chun system.

So whats so special about that? And your sweeping generalisations of HK schools at the time shows laziness in you "research"


Something I can see you have had little time for, which is a shame considering how you constantly bang on about how much better your training is...

Actually, i have studied the influx of WC practitioners into Australia (bit of a hobby for me at one stage) and would seek out other WC schools to meet and train with them. Id comfortably hold my own about WC's "history' in Australia with most people. So, yes i have done my work in that regards.
And here's a challenge, find one instance where i have said that my training is better than yours or anyone else's?

My issue with you are these pseudo intellectual opinions about any MA that competively fights, particularly that they are sports and not Martial Arts.



But at least I am proud of my own Wing Chun learning, as everyone else should be of theirs because we have inherited something I believe to be very special. And yes, if you take that as me saying Wing Chun is 'elite' then so be it.

Pride in a chosen field is fine, but dont try to lifts its standing by belittling other styles.
Incidentally, when i spar i often put my WC into use and (proudly) tell the other guy that he's just been WC'd. So yes, im proud of my previous style


Good for you. I did too, but I can't call our training very 'sporty' because we have absolutely no interest in competing against eachother to win. And I personally think this is where you misunderstand me the most.

I have no problem with what you do, go for your life, enjoy yourself. In fact ive even defended you on occasion from Grahams rants, but as a guy who now does MT, rich in tradition and culture, i find it offensive that you label it a "sport".. its much more than that as are BJJ, KK etc


Sport Martial Art is about training to win in competitions.

Not always, im 46 Spencer, do you think im training for a fighting career?


Martial Art itself has many ways to train without ever stepping into a competition.

I agree totally, but if a MA also has a sporting component that doesnt mean its no longer a martial art


Neither way is superior. I firmly believe that. But you do not imho. You have the suffering of ego and that is just too bad loser... ;) :

Where have i said that certain ways are superior-inferior?

[anerlich]

Answers to the original question:

1. I train both WC and BJJ. I believe the intersection of the Venn diagram to be pretty small.

2. I don't care.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Just thought I would ask this question..

Reading the history of Wing Chun, it was designed to be learned in a very short amount of time and was designed to help a person beat another specific person.

The "founder" was trained in a southern style of kung fu and then distilled it to be learned in that one year time of hard training. Looking at other southern styles you see many of the same concepts there as well, although not as much time is spent on them in some cases.

So do you think that Wing Chun, was a sort of "kung fu combatives" that was meat and potatoes of it's parent system of the easy to learn apply techniques, or do you think that it was designed to be a whole comprehensive system.

Back in it's day it was indeed considered to be a complete system. These guys usually had to make it work a lot. Today maybe not so complete. In the hundreds of years that Wing Chun has been kept alive it might have lost a little of it's completeness, and of course there have evolved lots of other things that were not around at the time. Guns for one thing. And of course the legal end of it since there is law and order supposedly. We have sport fighting now, which tends to be specialized in several ways. Not wide ranging systems at all because they have rules of engagement. MMA, Judo, BJJ, and probably many other sport fighting systems exist today that did not exist back then. Each one has it's own set of rules to work by. It stands to reason that some of this would be difficult to fight against today even though it might have been a complete system at one time.

[lance]

Just thought I would ask this question..

Reading the history of Wing Chun, it was designed to be learned in a very short amount of time and was designed to help a person beat another specific person.

The "founder" was trained in a southern style of kung fu and then distilled it to be learned in that one year time of hard training. Looking at other southern styles you see many of the same concepts there as well, although not as much time is spent on them in some cases.

So do you think that Wing Chun, was a sort of "kung fu combatives" that was meat and potatoes of it's parent system of the easy to learn apply techniques, or do you think that it was designed to be a whole comprehensive system.

Kevin73 , ! Yeah ! To me wing chun was meant to be a complete system .

[Lee Chiang Po]

Complete or not, I think it is closer to complete than most of what I have seen. Wing Chun is usually practiced and trained with and among other Wing Chun people, but it works way much better against people of other systems. I know I would spend several minutes in a rapid exchange with my brothers and not be able to score against one of them. 5 minutes of this would be like running up a really long flight of stairs and would wear me out. I have never had that kind of trouble with anyone outside the system. So I feel safe in stating that it does work better against non Wing Chun fighters. I think this was the whole idea from the beginning too. I have never personally met anyone outside my own family that did Wing Chun either. Except for the people on this forum, and I have never actually met any of them.

[Wayfaring]

Not the same way, and they all do not apply. But I would agree if you are saying having a good understanding and some experience of the ground game from another art's perspective is paramount in being able to deal with it. Otherwise it's just fantasy fu ;)

That's what I am saying.


Sure, I understand them perfectly and IMO back mount is the work place I want to be caught in :)

IMO there are 2-3 primary escapes from both mount and back mount that every martial artist should add into their bag of tricks.



HFY does have take down defenses (kius sau training covers this pretty well indepth supported with things like with CL, box and gate theory concepts, gravity , leverage, etc), but this is different than 'counter grappling' as a grappler would impy if that makes sense. And I am not foolish enough to think I can deny everyone from getting in my space and/or taking me down - but that is the goal in theory :)

And if I get taken down, I agree, I better have a decent understanding of what can happen there if I have any decent chance of safely getting back up.

I think the last 3 years or so have empirically shown in the MMA world that it is a viable plan to stay on your feet and stuff takedowns. I do think the MMA standup has a clinch game like against the cage that is different. And if I am training denying entry into my space from standup I would practice at least some using a backstop like that. Most MMA guys are learning ground defense first - keep from getting submitted - get back to your feet, and also some great options striking in ground situations (like GNP in someone's guard). Those options are good to consider for well-roundedness sake.



When I say complete, I am speaking of of concepts, as well as understanding principles that are universal vs. just what's in my tool box if this makes sense? Sprawl defence against a takedown works great, but imo it breaks even the basic WCK ideas of centerline, and is more of a counter grappling. So while it works, and to a high degree, IMO it's not really WCK if it breaks the basic ideas on centerline and gravity. So, just adding it to your toolbox doesn't make it WCK, and not having it doesn't mean WCK is incomplete either. Make sense?

I can live with that definition of complete.

I disagree on the sprawl however. To me it's just "feet follow hands" - in that the extremity of the pressure on the low bridge dictates where the feet have to land to deal with that pressure - IMO no violation of centerline, gravity, any other WCK principle.

On adding things to your toolbox that aren't WCK, I think it's a good idea in like the above areas. I care less about esoteric arguments about completeness of WCK, I'm more concerned about completeness for myself as a martial artist.

[YouKnowWho]

I care less about esoteric arguments about completeness of WCK, I'm more concerned about completeness for myself as a martial artist.

If we can all look at from this angle, there ahould be nothing to argue about?