Can Wing Chun end a fight?

[MrQuickstep]

I'm asking this since a lot of people says wing chun is perfect! or its a complete martial art! but really how do you end a fight against someone who's coming to kill you...you're not going grapple them and break any joints or bones and you're not going to throw or choke them out.

Do you guys think that wing chun has the power to knock someone out? I've never seen that happen...have you?

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes Wing Chun Punches are design to be fast,take up space and with the entire body behind it an jing accompanied to it a knock out is very possible.

Three keys

1.Time and Placement
2.Correct Body alignment
3.Right Power and Right Force


You need to be able to hit the person at the right place with the right amount power to shock their nervous system an cause them black out. Also if you continously wail on them in the same place continously they will not be able to recover.

Your WC should also have different ways of generating force. From the motions Found in Chum Kiu for Yip man lineage or the motions found in the San Sik in mainland lineages. Since San Sik is given to beginners you learn how to generate power with your horse early on. From shifting to stepping forward.

The force your body exerts as you lunge forward like in Biu Ma coupled with Jing and powerful snapping force is more than enough to knock someone out if you can get a clear and open shot.

[trubblman]

I'm asking this since a lot of people says wing chun is perfect! or its a complete martial art! but really how do you end a fight against someone who's coming to kill you...you're not going grapple them and break any joints or bones and you're not going to throw or choke them out.

Do you guys think that wing chun has the power to knock someone out? I've never seen that happen...have you?

Seen many fights (real as opposed to TeeVee) where at least one person was using Wing Chun? I have seen many actual fights, street fights in Baltimore, I think I have only seen 1 actual knockout and the person delivering the knockout was an exboxer who had been in the penitentiary against a person who attacked him with a knife. I didnt actually witness the fight, just saw the knife man being dragged away.

[YouKnowWho]

Do you guys think that wing chun has the power to knock someone out? I've never seen that happen...have you?
Again, this is one of my favor clips. If you can't do that, you cannot call yourself a WC guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded

[imperialtaichi]

I'm asking this since a lot of people says wing chun is perfect! or its a complete martial art! but really how do you end a fight against someone who's coming to kill you...you're not going grapple them and break any joints or bones and you're not going to throw or choke them out.

Do you guys think that wing chun has the power to knock someone out? I've never seen that happen...have you?

Great video link by YouKnowWho. While some arts advocate striking then jumping back to keep the distance, WC advocates striking as much and as fast and as hard and as many times as you can and don't stop until the opponent is down.

In KL22 we have pinning and breaking techniques as well.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I'm asking this since a lot of people says wing chun is perfect! or its a complete martial art! but really how do you end a fight against someone who's coming to kill you...you're not going grapple them and break any joints or bones and you're not going to throw or choke them out.

Do you guys think that wing chun has the power to knock someone out? I've never seen that happen...have you?


If not Wing Chun, at least the practitioner. Yes, It only takes a slight blow to the point of your chin to make you take a quick nap. A good punch can mess up your jaw hinges. There is no reason a wing chun person cannot punch at least as hard as any boxer of his own size and strength.

[nasmedicine]

Do you guys think that wing chun has the power to knock someone out? I've never seen that happen...have you?

A system in and of itself does not have "the power" to do anything. It's the practitioner of said system that will or will not have the power. Having said that, WC/VT/WT or whatever definitely give you the tools to train to obtain the potential to. Depends on how much you train and how strong your opponents chin is.

[wingchunIan]

arguably the most inane thread ever started on here, and its up against some stiff competition :rolleyes:

[MrQuickstep]

Iane you say Mr wingchunIan....lets run with that. Because I'm Stupid.

While I bow to you guys superior knowledge I do find 95% of the time you guys are so vague with your answers that it defeats the purpose of a good thread.

Lets start...where does wing chun gets it's power from? Again from 95% of the people here says it comes from your shoulder,elbow and maybe wrist, no waist since it will twist your upper body forcing your shoulders and arms not to be square and if they're not square you can't use your arms equally(against the principals of wing chun). If you use chor ma,side body stance or any other name you want to call the position you're shifting your stance but you body is still square to the opponent so there's no real waist or hip rotation. Theres also power generated from the legs but thrusting forward with you strikes hence adding your body weight but that is only useful in bridging the gap, after you've bridge the distance and occupied there space once the person isn't pushed back you can't generate that power again (no waist/hip twist or forward momentum).

Now we're close range how do you end the fight? If not with a knockout you have to break his will to fight....but if his will is strong and he's coming to kill you maybe he has a weapon or friends what do you do? Do you think you can end the fight quickly enough to deal with his friends?

By the way could someone put up a video of them hitting a heavybag using pure wing chun structure ( no windup and no hip/waist rotation)...thanking you in advance.

Starter of iane threads.

[m1k3]

Again, this is one of my favor clips. If you can't do that, you cannot call yourself a WC guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_x2rqKc&feature=player_embedded

Shame he's not a Wing Chun guy. :p

[MrQuickstep]

Shame he's not a Wing Chun guy. :p



He has more cred and respect for doing wing chun than sifu alan orr....this forum is soooo ****** :confused:

[WC1277]

Iane you say Mr wingchunIan....lets run with that. Because I'm Stupid.

While I bow to you guys superior knowledge I do find 95% of the time you guys are so vague with your answers that it defeats the purpose of a good thread.

Lets start...where does wing chun gets it's power from? Again from 95% of the people here says it comes from your shoulder,elbow and maybe wrist, no waist since it will twist your upper body forcing your shoulders and arms not to be square and if they're not square you can't use your arms equally(against the principals of wing chun). If you use chor ma,side body stance or any other name you want to call the position you're shifting your stance but you body is still square to the opponent so there's no real waist or hip rotation. Theres also power generated from the legs but thrusting forward with you strikes hence adding your body weight but that is only useful in bridging the gap, after you've bridge the distance and occupied there space once the person isn't pushed back you can't generate that power again (no waist/hip twist or forward momentum).

Now we're close range how do you end the fight? If not with a knockout you have to break his will to fight....but if his will is strong and he's coming to kill you maybe he has a weapon or friends what do you do? Do you think you can end the fight quickly enough to deal with his friends?

By the way could someone put up a video of them hitting a heavybag using pure wing chun structure ( no windup and no hip/waist rotation)...thanking you in advance.

Starter of iane threads.

Who said there was no hip rotation in WC. It's not any one part of the body anyway. It's just the arms, body, and legs linked together in unity. Kind of like a cylinder spring that's twisted and then released. Essentially the feet are one side of that spring attached to the ground and your arms are the other side. ....and there's a big difference between punching with the fist and punching with the elbow. The body follows the elbow, not the hand....

[MrQuickstep]

Question 1: How do you rotate your hips for power without ending with one of your shoulders leading?

Question 2: How do you generate power for your strikes with your legs from close eange?



Please excuse me but my reason to use this forum is to become a better martial artist....not to kiss a** or become a troll.

[m1k3]

He has more cred and respect for doing wing chun than sifu alan orr....this forum is soooo ****** :confused:

Can you show me some documentation to that? I have just done a search on Vitor and what I can find is he is a BJJ black belt with good boxing skills.

If he has done WC who did he train with and when? Please post a link to your information and a link to someone saying he did in a forum doesn't count.

Thanks

[WC1277]

Question 1: How do you rotate your hips for power without ending with one of your shoulders leading?

Question 2: How do you generate power for your strikes with your legs from close eange?



Please excuse me but my reason to use this forum is to become a better martial artist....not to kiss a** or become a troll.

It's hard to explain without showing but at least in our system it's similar to a tai chi strike but obviously different to a large degree too. If you were to slow it down to milliseconds, technically, our knees and hips actually initiate the movement before the elbow starts pushing. Try this to just feel the reverse motion of that hip and knee rotation. Get in your mother stance. Hopefully you have that down pretty good. Extend your arms in front of you at a good triangle with your palms placed together along your centerline. Do not pull the wrists back like a wu sau. Make sure your elbows are nice and sunk. Now without moving your arms at all rotate your upper body to the left or right and then release any muscle you used to rotate. If you have a good structure you should automatically come back to center. You should also feel a crunch like feeling in your navel and twisting in both your knees and hips. That feeling is essentially what you're generating when you attack correctly. Like I said this is a reverse engineering example. Hope that helps...

[MrQuickstep]

Can you show me some documentation to that? I have just done a search on Vitor and what I can find is he is a BJJ black belt with good boxing skills.

If he has done WC who did he train with and when? Please post a link to your information and a link to someone saying he did in a forum doesn't count.

Thanks


@m1k3: I was being sarcastic with that statement in that a lot of people bring up that video link when showing what wing chun can do with proper structure yet they bash sifu alan orr's wing chun for not looking like wing chun...seems funny to me.

@WC1277: Thanks for the assist I liked your explaination would like to know if you can apply this to toh ma or biu ma stance and if twisting your hips in toh ma or biu ma to generate power contradicts wing chun principles?

[m1k3]

Ahhhh, makes sense. I am a fan of Sifu Alan as well. My sarcasm detector must need adjusting again. Stupid thing. :D

[WC1277]

@m1k3:

@WC1277: Thanks for the assist I liked your explaination would like to know if you can apply this to toh ma or biu ma stance and if twisting your hips in toh ma or biu ma to generate power contradicts wing chun principles?

The pole Bue ma and Tou ma movements are more jamming spring motions where the navel still has the crunching feeling. You could relate it to the motions in Chum Kiu where you extend your arm out to the side and come back to center pulling with your elbow first and then punching out. That motion of the elbow sinking and then pushing out into the punch is the same generation of power essentially.

[anerlich]

Question 1: How do you rotate your hips for power without ending with one of your shoulders leading?

I don't really see a momentary leading shoulder as a problem, personally. Better that than hit like a cream puff.


Question 2: How do you generate power for your strikes with your legs from close eange?

From really close range, use an upward angle and srive with your legs as if doing a jump squat (without leaving the ground). Best/only way to get headbutt power.


twisting your hips in toh ma or biu ma to generate power contradicts wing chun principles?

I could care less. If you aren't generating power in your strikes using Wing Chun principles, get rid of the principles.

To answer your original question, I've been knocked out in Wing Chun sparring and I've seen others knocked out as well.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I think I detect some misconceptions. Wing Chun has several stance postures. One is with a slight side lead, both hand and foot to the lead side. The square on is actually done with Sil Lim form, but seldom in actual fighting I don't believe.
Generating power requires you look at the mechanics of the action. When we strike out and hit something, there is a reaction. Your body and weight tend to want to go in the oposite direction on impact. For this reason most fighters will try to put forward motion into the stoke to help counter that reaction and get more umph into the stroke. We do not do that, or shouldn't have to do that. Our stance, alignment, structure, is like a chair under the door knob thing. It prevents the door from opening. Our structure within the stance acts the same way and gives us that stability we need to prevent the reaction on impact. More of our thrust goes into the stroke at impact because less is allowed to go the oposite direction. The stronger you are, and the harder you can punch, then the more effective it will be. When we strike, we use the same qi that a karate man uses. At the very instant of impact we exhale forcefully, making the abdomen constrict, which in turn generates more power for an instant.
When we wind up and make a long stroke to hit, it is slowing down considerably by the time it makes contact, and it is only as strong as the wrist. If the wrist folds or turns under the stroke you lose considerable power. You can even injure the wrist. You can generate as much speed in the stroke and put as much power behind it as you can by drawing back and firing. And with proper structure you can get most of that power into the stroke, faster and more accurately than just drawing back and throwing fists. And to top that off, I don't just throw punches at the head, but will actually throw them at target areas so that if they connect, they cause more pain or have a greater effect.
Well, that is how I do it anyway. And I can hit really hard.

[lance]

I'm asking this since a lot of people says wing chun is perfect! or its a complete martial art! but really how do you end a fight against someone who's coming to kill you...you're not going grapple them and break any joints or bones and you're not going to throw or choke them out.

Do you guys think that wing chun has the power to knock someone out? I've never seen that happen...have you?

MrQuickstep , do you practice wing chun ? And to alot of people they like the art because it works for them . While some people don ' t like wing chun , because it does ' nt work for them , what about you , do you like wing chun ? I know a story of this WC sifu who wore boxing gloves , because he was going to fight 2 - guys , and this incident was in hawaii . He fought this 2 guys all individually , instead of knocking them out , he bruised their faces . But this sifu sadly died 2 years ago from diabetes . I saw this video clip where this black guy ( not to be racial ) , wanted to enter those K - 1 MMA fights , the promoter had to chase him out because he wanted to fight wing chun instead of muay thai . So he walked out , and I thought that MMA was for real , it seems that maybe they could ' nt handle WC .

MrQuickstep , the only way to find out how good wing chun is go and try fighting a wing chun man ? That should answer your questions .

[MrQuickstep]

MrQuickstep , do you practice wing chun ? And to alot of people they like the art because it works for them . While some people don ' t like wing chun , because it does ' nt work for them , what about you , do you like wing chun ? I know a story of this WC sifu who wore boxing gloves , because he was going to fight 2 - guys , and this incident was in hawaii . He fought this 2 guys all individually , instead of knocking them out , he bruised their faces . But this sifu sadly died 2 years ago from diabetes . I saw this video clip where this black guy ( not to be racial ) , wanted to enter those K - 1 MMA fights , the promoter had to chase him out because he wanted to fight wing chun instead of muay thai . So he walked out , and I thought that MMA was for real , it seems that maybe they could ' nt handle WC .

MrQuickstep , the only way to find out how good wing chun is go and try fighting a wing chun man ? That should answer your questions .

Thanks for the reply lance, Firstly I did practice wing chun off and on for some years finally decided to start back, I don't have a teacher right now but there aren't many quality teachers in my home country at this time so I'm concentrating on my basics...To me I'm looking to make wing chun work for me against anyone in any art at anytime I don't care what school anyone's from or what style, I must win, I must survive.
As off late I'm thinking how best to stick to the concepts and yet be realistic?, my only answer is to leave out all the bs.

[Yoshiyahu]

MrQuickStepDepending on what branch of WC you do there are various ways to generate power!

In Yoshiyahu's Wing Chun there are five basic ways we generate power with a hand strike!

1.The Curl (structure and stance)
2. The Breath (chi)
3. The waist and hips (jing)
4. Torque or turning power (chum kiu)
5. Stepping of moving force (chum kiu)

In Yoshiyahu's Kungfu you start off early combining all five even before you learn Sil Lim Tao. There is a San Sik that actually trains the various structures so you can develop power needed to hurt your opponent...You can combine all five components to maximize power or combine a few or just one.

Chor Ma is where you generate power while turning. In my Wing Chun we also combine Chor Ma with Toh Mah and Biu Ma...

Toh Ma which is merely chasing horse is use not only to bridge the gap but to also maintain connection or stick. Your opponent is not going to stay there and slug it out with you. So you chase his horse as he tries to evade. Toh Ma is also use to jam space and to overwhelm your opponent. If your opponent is still over come him with movement. So you can use Toh Ma in conjunction with the other four components to generate alot of power to knock him. But Toh Ma is a quicker movement that allows you to rapidly step in your opponent.

Biu ma combined with Turning horse or Toh Ma is very powerful. You can use it to bridge the gap of course. I particularly don't like using it because its less stable than Toh Ma. Also Biu ma is more of dash, shoot or exploding movement that allows you to generate maximum power with your structure in one shot. The combination technique we call Rotating moving Punch. When you practice the technique in a side horse stance.

Biu ma is more powerful than Toh Ma when a punch is added. But Toh ma is faster than Biu ma. Also in my WC we have different punches other than just merely chain punch...We have parallel punch which is slower than a chain punch but more powerful and we have the meridan front punch which is more powerful than chainpunching but it is slower. So with more power comes less speed. But in real fighting the difference in speed with correct adaption is slight. Because you will set your opponent up for the strike. I will say the degree is speed of each technique can be compared to a jab, hook or overhead hammer punch. One is faster than other so some techniques will be used sparingly an others will be use primarly.

KNOCKING SOMEONE OUT WITH WING CHUN: Again it depends on placement and timing and power. With the right amount of power when you have a clear opening you can knock someone out using WC. The key is aggression staying up on your opponent. Your mentality should be to knock them out to render them unable to fight. As for Chin na, or or breaking a limb or something...That shouldn't be your main objective. Imma get his arm an break it..No, you will fail. Think in shapes and forms when you fight not details. If an opportunity appears to where you can get a clean break take it...but if you gotta plan it out or think about it or second guess your self your dead.

You said once you bridge the gap what else can you do. Cho ma, Jut Da Pak Da are very useful. Jut Sau can utilize your opponent energy against them. Use their body weight by jerking them off their posistion while stepping into them striking...Also Who says you can't Biu Ma once you have bridge the gap. Why not biu ma inside your opponents door. its far more useful than outside. If you get a clean opening to strike why not Biu Ma with a forceful fist. Why not follow it up with concussive strikes behind it.

[TenTigers]

wow...just....wow.
ok, two things:
1) when you strike to the head (on the button) the head snaps back, the brain rocks back and hits the wall of the cranium-as it is not attached, per se, but "floats"
as the head is snapping forward, the next punch is already crashing in, and the next..etc this is basic.
(we need a t-shirt: This is your brain, this is your brain on Wing Chun)
2) (sigh...) um, do you guys think that all Wing Chun is, is chain punching?
Chain punches open the door. Follow ups include saat geng sao-throat killing (cutting) palm, biu jee, and elbows, as well as hooks and uppercuts, etc.
not to sound sarcastic, but two pages trying to justify Wing Chun strikes, and all you guys talk about are chain punches? C'mon.

[Yoshiyahu]

This is a great point...unfortunately alot of WC out there consist primarily of chain punching because its one of fastest methods...An against someone not accustomed to that attack its very effective...that is if you can actually land the attacks.

Some use chain punches to gain entry. I prefer using chain punches when i already struck through the door.


wow...just....wow.
ok, two things:
1) when you strike to the head (on the button) the head snaps back, the brain rocks back and hits the wall of the cranium-as it is not attached, per se, but "floats"
as the head is snapping forward, the next punch is already crashing in, and the next..etc this is basic.
(we need a t-shirt: This is your brain, this is your brain on Wing Chun)
2) (sigh...) um, do you guys think that all Wing Chun is, is chain punching?
Chain punches open the door. Follow ups include saat geng sao-throat killing (cutting) palm, biu jee, and elbows, as well as hooks and uppercuts, etc.
not to sound sarcastic, but two pages trying to justify Wing Chun strikes, and all you guys talk about are chain punches? C'mon.

[Happy Tiger]

On the subject of 'chain punching'. I have found, in real fighting and free fighting against other kinds of fighters, that chain punching as in 'the straight blast' does not find appropriate window that often. Like most complex trapping, it has limited use. Chaining attacks together rather than chain punching works much better for me. To some I guess that sounds like there's no real distinction but I think you know what I mean. The chain punch if not timed right can actually put one in a position of being countered or a successfull 'shoot' engaged. It is wishfull thinking that this kind of attack will have the expected result against trained modern fighters.

[Matt_WCK]

[QUOTE=MrQuickstep;1164947]Lets start...where does wing chun gets it's power from? Again from 95% of the people here says it comes from your shoulder,elbow and maybe wrist, no waist since it will twist your upper body forcing your shoulders and arms not to be square and if they're not square you can't use your arms equally(against the principals of wing chun). If you use chor ma,side body stance or any other name you want to call the position you're shifting your stance but you body is still square to the opponent so there's no real waist or hip rotation. Theres also power generated from the legs but thrusting forward with you strikes hence adding your body weight but that is only useful in bridging the gap, after you've bridge the distance and occupied there space once the person isn't pushed back you can't generate that power again (no waist/hip twist or forward momentum).

Now we're close range how do you end the fight? If not with a knockout you have to break his will to fight....but if his will is strong and he's coming to kill you maybe he has a weapon or friends what do you do? Do you think you can end the fight quickly enough to deal with his friends?
QUOTE]

To go back to the original questions about power generation and how to 'remove a threat' (whether or not they are unconscious is irrelevant - as long as they are not in a position to attack you then consider them neutralised).

Anyway, don't get caught up in TRYING to LOOK like Wing Chun, rather allow Wing Chun to give you options, obey the conceptual aspects of the art. I've added some of the Kuen Kuit below and will discuss some to explain my interpretation.

- The body follows the movement of the hands. The waist and the stance move together.
- Charge into the opponent. Execute three moves together.
- Coordinate the hands and feet. Movement is together.
- Occupy the inner gate to strike deep into the defense.
- The knees lead the stance. The waist links the body. Where the mind goes, the eyes go, and the hands and feet follow.
- Feet and hands work together, and the threat comes to an end.
- In uniting the waist with the stance, power can be generated.
- Circular and straight accompany each other. Bent and straight complement one another.

Nowhere does it say that your shoulders and waist should remain absolutely square on to your opponent at every second of the fight (yes, you should endeavour to keep all of your weapons in roughly equal range by maintaining a 'facing' posture but don't be a square-on robot - this is mainly for drills). What the Kuen Kuit advise is to unite your whole body, much like taijiquan where power comes from the ground in that you push into the earth, transmit through legs (big muscles), coordinate through the waist and shoulders (still quite big muscles) and deliver through the elbow/wrist (small muscles).

The key is to be relaxed and use your whole body (and constantly move - don't stay planted - side step, circle step and thrust step into your opponent's space at all times).

Anyway, power generation - there are two basic ways of power generation/transmission: trans-rotational and trans-lateral (circular and straight). Everything you do should contain both types throughout your body to maximise power. NOT allowing your waist to move when the rest of your body is is actually going against the Kuen Kuit as your waist is not united. The waist and shoulders give trans-rotational energy primarily (the movement is short and sharp as not to over-turn and over-commit), as do small movements in the wrist and legs while the legs (moving) and arms provide trans-lateral, but the shoulders and waist also provide some tran-lateral in the projection into the attack (again, very small, subtle movement but key to good power).

Punching without any movement in your body is not very effective (again, look at the kuen kuit - charge into the opponent and get inside their inside gate at all three levels. Chain punching is just one (iconic) tool; turning punches, straight punches, palms etc are all great for upper gate attacks while low palms and punches etc are good at mid gate attacks while legs obviously attack the lower gates. While chain punches can put an opponent under pressure, I use them to force my opponent into a defensive guard at which point the chain punches become lap/gum/jut or something similar to destroy the guard so a nice throat cutting palm or fak sau can get through.

In terms of knocking someone out, you really don't have to hit someone very hard to achieve this but again - you shouldn't seek to achieve this as you will be hunting for a particular technique and not being 'free'. A broken rib, groin shot or anything attacking the neck (be careful in training with these) are sufficient to put someone down for long enough for you to get away/move onto the next guy.

In the same way as don't become a head-hunter, don't try to apply chin-na/breaks, locks etc - in fact, don't TRY to achieve any particular techniques, simply take advantage of whatever gaps are present and attack whatever target present themselves and when you attack, you attack completely and mercilessly - another of the Kuen Kuit states that to win in an instant is a superior skill.

Hopefully someone will find some of this useful - the key, as I understand it, is to separate drills from applications. Drills are essential ways of developing techniques and tend to be static to allow the student to focus on one particular aspect (it's easier to miss something if you have to coordinate the whole body) but in application you must be anything BUT static, move your whole body and coordinate that movement to generate power/destroy your opponent's structure.

Having said all of this though, you should seek to personalise the system - make it yours and don't try try to fight like someone else. Experiment in chi sau and see what works for you - use pads and bags etc to help develop power and try using your whole body not just the relatively small arm muscles.

I'm sure some will do things differently and the great thing is - they are not wrong (as long as the principles are understood).

To paraphrase Wong Shun Leung 'Don't let Wing Chun be your master, make it your slave'.

:)

[wingchunIan]

Iane you say Mr wingchunIan....lets run with that. Because I'm Stupid.

While I bow to you guys superior knowledge I do find 95% of the time you guys are so vague with your answers that it defeats the purpose of a good thread.

Lets start...where does wing chun gets it's power from? Again from 95% of the people here says it comes from your shoulder,elbow and maybe wrist, no waist since it will twist your upper body forcing your shoulders and arms not to be square and if they're not square you can't use your arms equally(against the principals of wing chun). If you use chor ma,side body stance or any other name you want to call the position you're shifting your stance but you body is still square to the opponent so there's no real waist or hip rotation. Theres also power generated from the legs but thrusting forward with you strikes hence adding your body weight but that is only useful in bridging the gap, after you've bridge the distance and occupied there space once the person isn't pushed back you can't generate that power again (no waist/hip twist or forward momentum).

Now we're close range how do you end the fight? If not with a knockout you have to break his will to fight....but if his will is strong and he's coming to kill you maybe he has a weapon or friends what do you do? Do you think you can end the fight quickly enough to deal with his friends?

By the way could someone put up a video of them hitting a heavybag using pure wing chun structure ( no windup and no hip/waist rotation)...thanking you in advance.

Starter of iane threads.
In fairness the thread is inane as even an untrained person can stop a fight and you are asking a forum of Wing Chun practitioners. Your post above however asks some good questions. In response, if 95% of people here claim Wing Chun power comes in the way you describe then I would say the other 5% are correct! Wing chun power comes from the 6 joints and ultimately the ability to drive off the ground. As far as no waist twist, get someone to show you chum kiu. In SNT the upper and lower body move as one teaching alignment, structure etc in CK upper and lower body moves separately but aligned. With regards to ending a fight, yes a punch on the jaw can do it, but so too can a punch or fak sao to the throat, man gan sau, elbow, or spade palm to the neck etc real Wing Chun is not the endless bunny hopping, egg whisk out of range chain punches that seem to proliferate on youtube.
I don't have my heavy bag hanging at the mo as I'm prefering the maize bag, wall bag and BOB thing but I'll see what I can do re a clip

[Yoshiyahu]

Ginger Fist to GV 26 is useful to knock someone out

Ginger Fist, Fak Sau or Gan sau to GV 24.5 is useful to knock someone out.

Points GV 16 & B 10 are great points to hit when your got your opponents back of flank. Sun Fist, Palm Strikes or even Phoenix Eye fist is useful for these two points.

The key is conditioning. Wall Bag training from Rice to beans to sand to steel shots will conditiong your hands to strike these points...


Tan Da accompanied with Chor Ma is useful for point St 6

The key is conditioning. Wall Bag training from Rice to beans to sand to steel shots will conditiong your hands to strike these points...Condition the different hand techniques with the wall bag. Also develop power my shifting when you punch and stepping into the wall bag. Practicing Explosive Push ups and other things will increase your explosive punching power too with in just the arms. Adding the internal aka the entire body behind your punch increases the power. Imagine stepping into an opponent with WC Straight Blast while shifting or splitting the body...Imagine the amount force you will have behind the punch on a persons knock out spot.

Learning how to add snap or jolt at end of your punch is key too. Delivering internal force with Jing will shock the opponents system and make their brain knock against their skull causing a temporary block out!


http://a2.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/71/df4eedd30cf44a20913d94d27103c7a4/l.jpg

[Happy Tiger]

Wing Chun's blessing is it's curse, it is too structurally attached to upright boxing to always follow to the end. Chasing and sticking for the trip down is perilous,taxonomy of energy changing..

[Vajramusti]

Wing Chun's blessing is it's curse, it is too structurally attached to upright boxing to always follow to the end. Chasing and sticking for the trip down is perilous,taxonomy of energy changing..
-------------------------------------------
Depends on whose wing chun

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun's blessing is it's curse, it is too structurally attached to upright boxing to always follow to the end. Chasing and sticking for the trip down is perilous,taxonomy of energy changing..

What you said is a whole lotta nothing you know that right?

[Happy Tiger]

I love it!!! O.K. What I'm saying is in general wing chun is up heavy. When the fight hits the floor without a clear dominant figure,everything changes. I certainly hope there's VT that spends a great deal of time on the ground cause one on one that's where it's likely to end up. I know many VT people that are turtles when upturned.

[Matt_WCK]

I love it!!! O.K. What I'm saying is in general wing chun is up heavy. When the fight hits the floor without a clear dominant figure,everything changes. I certainly hope there's VT that spends a great deal of time on the ground cause one on one that's where it's likely to end up. I know many VT people that are turtles when upturned.

Yes - but this is generally down to a lack of experience of the WCK practitioner and not because the system is lacking. The beauty of Wing Chun is in it's simplicity - why spend ages learning to fight upright, then another age learning to fight differently on the ground? If you look at the WCK structure, you could fight flat against a wall or flat on the floor and it shouldn't change the way you operate - in fact, stamp kicks work brilliantly while on the floor and I have taught the ground aspect of WCK. Yes, the ground aspect is nowhere near as detailed as other arts but there is sufficient material there to fight on the ground with the intention being to finish quickly and get back up again. An elbow in the throat will drop someone whether you're stood up or flat on the floor!

Giving it a go is the key, play with the system and wake it work for you in whatever situation you find.

I have 'played' with experienced Jujitsu guys (black and dan grades) and they have had a great deal of difficulty obtaining a submission (while leaving themselves open to many many strikes and kicks - they certainly looked at Wing Chun as a different beast after that) - and anyway, because we don't (generally) do sport fighting, why not bite, spit and claw your opponent (maybe not in the kwoon though...)?

The conceptual nature of the system allows a great deal of interpretation - take weapons; just because most WCK only teach an 8-10 foot pole and two short swords does not mean that they are the only weapons you can use and still use WCK. The two weapons provide a conceptual base to fighting with long and short weapons, sharp and blunt weapons, single and double weapons... when you look at it from that aspect, what weapon CAN'T you pick up and still use WCK? (OK, throwing weapons maybe but some lineages still teach darts as another weapon)

Take a similar approach to open hand fighting and you'll be hard pressed to find an environment where you CAN'T use WCK.

[LFJ]

Good post Matt!

A skilled WCK fighter should be able to use their art on the ground or any position/situation, without having to cross-train in a grappling art. Not that cross-training is not a good idea, but WCK is adaptable to whatever circumstances. If cross-training is necessary to fill a gap, rather than experience other arts, it's likely that the practitioner doesn't have enough understanding of WCK to use it on the ground yet, hence the gap.

[LoneTiger108]

I love it!!! O.K. What I'm saying is in general wing chun is up heavy.

A bit of a massive generalization. Wing Chun is designed to be perfectly balanced both with the hands and feet, and totally personalized to each individuals body shape, reach, height etc so if you haven't yet experienced this with Wing Chun you have yet to really feel the benefits of everything that has been left for us imho!


The conceptual nature of the system allows a great deal of interpretation - take weapons; just because most WCK only teach an 8-10 foot pole and two short swords does not mean that they are the only weapons you can use and still use WCK. The two weapons provide a conceptual base to fighting with long and short weapons, sharp and blunt weapons, single and double weapons... when you look at it from that aspect, what weapon CAN'T you pick up and still use WCK? (OK, throwing weapons maybe but some lineages still teach darts as another weapon)

Take a similar approach to open hand fighting and you'll be hard pressed to find an environment where you CAN'T use WCK.

:) very well put!

I would add that if you started your Wing Chun back in the earlier days (which I have only heard stories about lol!) you may have had some training where you are pressed with your back up against a wall, or forced into the corner of the gwoon to learn how to defend yourself without taking a step backwards. Quite big with people like Sifu Simon Lau here in the UK!

I would suggest that if you're comfortable with that then why wouldn't you be comfortable on the floor?? Obviously it's never a recommended strategy, but it is still something a Wing Chun student should be aware of. But in all honesty, why do we need to take someone to the floor to finish a fight?? Personally never been a fan of G&P coz it goes against my nice nature lol!

[wingchunIan]

Yes - but this is generally down to a lack of experience of the WCK practitioner and not because the system is lacking. The beauty of Wing Chun is in it's simplicity - why spend ages learning to fight upright, then another age learning to fight differently on the ground? If you look at the WCK structure, you could fight flat against a wall or flat on the floor and it shouldn't change the way you operate - in fact, stamp kicks work brilliantly while on the floor and I have taught the ground aspect of WCK. Yes, the ground aspect is nowhere near as detailed as other arts but there is sufficient material there to fight on the ground with the intention being to finish quickly and get back up again. An elbow in the throat will drop someone whether you're stood up or flat on the floor!

Giving it a go is the key, play with the system and wake it work for you in whatever situation you find.

I have 'played' with experienced Jujitsu guys (black and dan grades) and they have had a great deal of difficulty obtaining a submission (while leaving themselves open to many many strikes and kicks - they certainly looked at Wing Chun as a different beast after that) - and anyway, because we don't (generally) do sport fighting, why not bite, spit and claw your opponent (maybe not in the kwoon though...)?

The conceptual nature of the system allows a great deal of interpretation - take weapons; just because most WCK only teach an 8-10 foot pole and two short swords does not mean that they are the only weapons you can use and still use WCK. The two weapons provide a conceptual base to fighting with long and short weapons, sharp and blunt weapons, single and double weapons... when you look at it from that aspect, what weapon CAN'T you pick up and still use WCK? (OK, throwing weapons maybe but some lineages still teach darts as another weapon)

Take a similar approach to open hand fighting and you'll be hard pressed to find an environment where you CAN'T use WCK.

Couldn't have put it better myself:D

[Happy Tiger]

These responses give me hope for the future.Either standing or on the ground, there is no separation. Many actually fear the ground and when fustigated can panic and make the big mistake. Dedicated grapplers do not mind recieving blows to secure a shoot. In addition, the whole idea of mun sao and arm touching can be trouble with the right foil. sifu Paul Vunak had lots to say on that subject. I love VT and I can see, I still have more to learn. Glad to see people actually share experience and not just site presidence or rehash the ideal.

[Wayfaring]

Yes - but this is generally down to a lack of experience of the WCK practitioner and not because the system is lacking.

No, this is because WCK doesn't address ground fundamentals.


The beauty of Wing Chun is in it's simplicity - why spend ages learning to fight upright, then another age learning to fight differently on the ground?

So that you don't have a huge hole in your game when you are on the ground.


If you look at the WCK structure, you could fight flat against a wall or flat on the floor and it shouldn't change the way you operate - in fact, stamp kicks work brilliantly while on the floor and I have taught the ground aspect of WCK. Yes, the ground aspect is nowhere near as detailed as other arts but there is sufficient material there to fight on the ground with the intention being to finish quickly and get back up again. An elbow in the throat will drop someone whether you're stood up or flat on the floor!

This paragraph is extremely delusional. No, you can't fight on the ground the same way you fight flat against a wall (not that WCK people practice fighting flat against a wall either). "Stamp kicks" will not work "brilliantly" on the ground unless you are applying them in a specific fashion combined with other fundamental ground skills.

No, there is absolutely not enough material there to fight on the ground regardless of what your intention is. If you have no ground skills I can hold you on the ground and you can't get up regardless of your intention.

And no, an elbow in the throat will not drop someone wither you're up or on the floor. Here's a typical experiment I've seen play out numerous times. An experienced ground practitioner holds mount. Guy on bottom tries to elbow him in throat and get up. Guy on top punches. Guy on bottom quits within 15 seconds.


Giving it a go is the key, play with the system and wake it work for you in whatever situation you find.

No it's not the key. You can't learn WCK by "giving it a go", neither can you learn ground fundamentals and skills.


I have 'played' with experienced Jujitsu guys (black and dan grades) and they have had a great deal of difficulty obtaining a submission (while leaving themselves open to many many strikes and kicks - they certainly looked at Wing Chun as a different beast after that) - and anyway, because we don't (generally) do sport fighting, why not bite, spit and claw your opponent (maybe not in the kwoon though...)?

There is a world of difference between "experienced Jujitsu" guys - meaning japanese jujitsu (black and dan grades) and a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt. Most of your MMA schools train grappling where striking is incorporated, and will roll with you with gloves and punches. They certainly won't "look at WCK as a different beast" if you go in there and show off your noob ground skills while trying to strike them. In fact, spazzing out on them in that fashion will most likely get you hurt. You also wouldn't be able to pull off that garbage against a real BJJ black belt. Go look up "Gracie Challenge" on YouTube for video examples.

The sport fighting vs. bite, spit, claw, etc. is a tired argument. See my above experiement. The problem biting, spitting, clawing, etc. from under mount is gravity - the fact the guy on top can do the same and worse and has skills to hold you down. Also, when you're hand reaches out to claw, your face is unprotected from a punch from above with gravity. Yes, I've seen this experiment play out as well.


The conceptual nature of the system allows a great deal of interpretation - take weapons; just because most WCK only teach an 8-10 foot pole and two short swords does not mean that they are the only weapons you can use and still use WCK. The two weapons provide a conceptual base to fighting with long and short weapons, sharp and blunt weapons, single and double weapons... when you look at it from that aspect, what weapon CAN'T you pick up and still use WCK? (OK, throwing weapons maybe but some lineages still teach darts as another weapon)

The conceptual nature of the system allows for delusional people to think that they have skills in areas they haven't working on developing. This is not only delusional, but very dangerous from a self-defense perspective.

[TenTigers]

There is nothing lacking in WCK, as a stand-up striking system, which is what it was designed as. However, since now there are a lot of people including groundfighting in their training, if you want to be a complete fighter, you need to address this, and cross train.
The invention of the screw did not negate the effectiveness of the hammer.
But no carpenter would ever claim that the hammer can be used to drive screws.
You guys are arguing a point that does not need to be argued.

[Sean66]

Very good post, Wayfaring.
I agree 100%!

[Happy Tiger]

I like this thread, it's juicy. I'll tell ya one thing in 8 years of formal VT training I haven't even been in a kwoon that had a mat in it. I would like to hear from the internal players about internal structure on the ground. Horizontal SNT any one? On a side note, if you really are a stand up fighter, one of the best single things to train is IMHO the 'sprawl' I've wondered if that is what's meant by the touch your toes clearing move at the end of biu jie

[k gledhill]

No, this is because WCK doesn't address ground fundamentals.

So that you don't have a huge hole in your game when you are on the ground.

This paragraph is extremely delusional. No, you can't fight on the ground the same way you fight flat against a wall (not that WCK people practice fighting flat against a wall either). "Stamp kicks" will not work "brilliantly" on the ground unless you are applying them in a specific fashion combined with other fundamental ground skills.

No, there is absolutely not enough material there to fight on the ground regardless of what your intention is. If you have no ground skills I can hold you on the ground and you can't get up regardless of your intention.

And no, an elbow in the throat will not drop someone wither you're up or on the floor. Here's a typical experiment I've seen play out numerous times. An experienced ground practitioner holds mount. Guy on bottom tries to elbow him in throat and get up. Guy on top punches. Guy on bottom quits within 15 seconds.

No it's not the key. You can't learn WCK by "giving it a go", neither can you learn ground fundamentals and skills.

There is a world of difference between "experienced Jujitsu" guys - meaning japanese jujitsu (black and dan grades) and a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt. Most of your MMA schools train grappling where striking is incorporated, and will roll with you with gloves and punches. They certainly won't "look at WCK as a different beast" if you go in there and show off your noob ground skills while trying to strike them. In fact, spazzing out on them in that fashion will most likely get you hurt. You also wouldn't be able to pull off that garbage against a real BJJ black belt. Go look up "Gracie Challenge" on YouTube for video examples.

The sport fighting vs. bite, spit, claw, etc. is a tired argument. See my above experiement. The problem biting, spitting, clawing, etc. from under mount is gravity - the fact the guy on top can do the same and worse and has skills to hold you down. Also, when you're hand reaches out to claw, your face is unprotected from a punch from above with gravity. Yes, I've seen this experiment play out as well.

The conceptual nature of the system allows for delusional people to think that they have skills in areas they haven't working on developing. This is not only delusional, but very dangerous from a self-defense perspective.

I am with wayfaring too.

[LoneTiger108]

I like this thread, it's juicy. I'll tell ya one thing in 8 years of formal VT training I haven't even been in a kwoon that had a mat in it.

How did you practise takedowns? As in Wing Chun takedowns?

I hear what Wayfaring is saying and I agree with most of it if your Wing Chun training hasn't included any, what we called, floorwork. My Sifu always had mats, still does, and he used to say that good floorwork builds great all over body strength and this is truly evident in good BJJ players. They're tuff as nails!

So we rolled and practised varied ways to 'hit the floor', not just to be able to be taken down in demos and such but to be able to escape and get back on your feet asap because ultimately that's where we want to be.

It's like me asking all the Wing Chun guys here if they have practised kneeling methods? If not, your follow up to a good takedown will be less sucessful. Good Wing Chun has many things that people may not even see if they're simply passing through so you can imagine how different things get when people start teaching Wing Chun after only ever passing through.

[Happy Tiger]

How did you practise takedowns? As in Wing Chun takedowns?

I hear what Wayfaring is saying and I agree with most of it if your Wing Chun training hasn't included any, what we called, floorwork. My Sifu always had mats, still does, and he used to say that good floorwork builds great all over body strength and this is truly evident in good BJJ players. They're tuff as nails!

So we rolled and practised varied ways to 'hit the floor', not just to be able to be taken down in demos and such but to be able to escape and get back on your feet asap because ultimately that's where we want to be.

It's like me asking all the Wing Chun guys here if they have practised kneeling methods? If not, your follow up to a good takedown will be less sucessful. Good Wing Chun has many things that people may not even see if they're simply passing through so you can imagine how different things get when people start teaching Wing Chun after only ever passing through.
In the sigong Wong Shun Leung years, we just slapped the cold cold floor. With my background in Hapkido it was no trouble for me having slapped tatami for many years. I am intrigued by your house (Lee Shing,yes?) For many reasons. Glad to hear you train on the ground some.

[wingchunIan]

No, this is because WCK doesn't address ground fundamentals.

So that you don't have a huge hole in your game when you are on the ground.

This paragraph is extremely delusional. No, you can't fight on the ground the same way you fight flat against a wall (not that WCK people practice fighting flat against a wall either). "Stamp kicks" will not work "brilliantly" on the ground unless you are applying them in a specific fashion combined with other fundamental ground skills.

No, there is absolutely not enough material there to fight on the ground regardless of what your intention is. If you have no ground skills I can hold you on the ground and you can't get up regardless of your intention.

And no, an elbow in the throat will not drop someone wither you're up or on the floor. Here's a typical experiment I've seen play out numerous times. An experienced ground practitioner holds mount. Guy on bottom tries to elbow him in throat and get up. Guy on top punches. Guy on bottom quits within 15 seconds.

No it's not the key. You can't learn WCK by "giving it a go", neither can you learn ground fundamentals and skills.

There is a world of difference between "experienced Jujitsu" guys - meaning japanese jujitsu (black and dan grades) and a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt. Most of your MMA schools train grappling where striking is incorporated, and will roll with you with gloves and punches. They certainly won't "look at WCK as a different beast" if you go in there and show off your noob ground skills while trying to strike them. In fact, spazzing out on them in that fashion will most likely get you hurt. You also wouldn't be able to pull off that garbage against a real BJJ black belt. Go look up "Gracie Challenge" on YouTube for video examples.

The sport fighting vs. bite, spit, claw, etc. is a tired argument. See my above experiement. The problem biting, spitting, clawing, etc. from under mount is gravity - the fact the guy on top can do the same and worse and has skills to hold you down. Also, when you're hand reaches out to claw, your face is unprotected from a punch from above with gravity. Yes, I've seen this experiment play out as well.

The conceptual nature of the system allows for delusional people to think that they have skills in areas they haven't working on developing. This is not only delusional, but very dangerous from a self-defense perspective.

Your POV, based upon your experience of the way that you train Wing Chun. I train my Wing Chun with my back against the wall, sitting down and lying back on the floor. Wing Chun isn't a holy grail that will make you invincible but neither is Gracie jiu jitsu. I've trained with pro mma fighters and tournament winning BJJ black belts and Wing Chun works on the floor if you train it and put the effort into your short range power development both forward and backward (it doesn't win every time and nor does it lose every time). If you stay on the floor you will be overwhelmed eventually and the goal has to be to get up as quickly as possible. It ultimately comes down to who can apply their skills more effectively, you or the other guy. If you never train on the floor then you are immediately disadvantaged and the chances of you coming out on top are remote. How you choose to train your ground game is personal choice but it is only your POV, the world is a big place and Wing Chun training is as wide and varied as the individuals that practice it.

[Vajramusti]

Your POV, based upon your experience of the way that you train Wing Chun. I train my Wing Chun with my back against the wall, sitting down and lying back on the floor. Wing Chun isn't a holy grail that will make you invincible but neither is Gracie jiu jitsu. I've trained with pro mma fighters and tournament winning BJJ black belts and Wing Chun works on the floor if you train it and put the effort into your short range power development both forward and backward (it doesn't win every time and nor does it lose every time). If you stay on the floor you will be overwhelmed eventually and the goal has to be to get up as quickly as possible. It ultimately comes down to who can apply their skills more effectively, you or the other guy. If you never train on the floor then you are immediately disadvantaged and the chances of you coming out on top are remote. How you choose to train your ground game is personal choice but it is only your POV, the world is a big place and Wing Chun training is as wide and varied as the individuals that practice it.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Agree with much of what you have to say. Can't resolve it ina forum debate.Same old same old POV distinctions on what wing chun
training is and isn't.

joy chaudhuri

[Happy Tiger]

Any one know or have made clips of VT counter fighting ground work or using VT from the guard?

[k gledhill]

Any one know or have made clips of VT counter fighting ground work or using VT from the guard?

http://youtu.be/sEQn5HfyChs here is a guy who made a form , enjoy

[Wayfaring]

Your POV, based upon your experience of the way that you train Wing Chun. I train my Wing Chun with my back against the wall, sitting down and lying back on the floor.

You mean like this guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h-dYXhXkWQ



Wing Chun isn't a holy grail that will make you invincible but neither is Gracie jiu jitsu.

The Gracies are not invincible themselves. In fact, very few Gracie family people compete in BJJ world tournaments or do MMA fights.

The one thing they did do, though, is dispel deluded viewpoints like the ones on this thread. In the early '90's. Like, you know, the '90's called and they want their argument back.

Here's one example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKRyTSr5Mo



I've trained with pro mma fighters and tournament winning BJJ black belts and Wing Chun works on the floor if you train it and put the effort into your short range power development both forward and backward (it doesn't win every time and nor does it lose every time).

So you have rolled wtih pro mma fighters and tournament winning BJJ black belts and beaten them? Care to share any names or details? Or was this just a hypothetical contest?



If you stay on the floor you will be overwhelmed eventually and the goal has to be to get up as quickly as possible.

Funny, this is also the goal of BJJ black belts who do MMA. Or most of them. And is the goal of above 90% of MMA fighters. Actually I'll correct that to mean stay on the floor on your back. On the floor with the skills and gravity to GNP is also a goal.


It ultimately comes down to who can apply their skills more effectively, you or the other guy.

My bet is on the other guy. You know, the one who studies and has developed ground skills.


If you never train on the floor then you are immediately disadvantaged and the chances of you coming out on top are remote.

Funny - thought that was my point. I would extend my point to say if you train wing chun on the floor like the first guy in the video I posted, the chances of you coming out on top are even more remote.


How you choose to train your ground game is personal choice but it is only your POV, the world is a big place and Wing Chun training is as wide and varied as the individuals that practice it.

While it is true that is my POV, to be fair my POV is based upon empirical evidence that is readily available for evaluation. As far as personal choice, some choices are better than others. I really haven't found that wide of a variety of Wing Chun training among different schools I have visited. Forms, technique, partner drills, and chi sau, maybe wooden dummy techniques - that comprises the majority of WCK training I've seen. Why, does your WCK school vary from that format? What radically better different things do you incorporate?

[Wayfaring]

More WCK ground fighting training gems:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3AwlS7Vz1M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikQ9NrNx8g - Randy Williams is among my biggest pet peeves in this area. Absolute hogwash. Misinformation is actually worse than no information.

[Wayfaring]

But no carpenter would ever claim that the hammer can be used to drive screws.


Apparantly a WCK carpenter would claim that.

[Sean66]

If you don't have time to go to a grappling or BJJ gym, or if there isn't one around where you live, you can always get Tim Cartmell's "Ground Proofing" dvd. It's the essentials of ground fighting for da streetz. You can learn the stuff in a weekend, and if you practice it regularly with a partner/students, you will be waaay better off than having no idea of what to do on the ground.

Here is the trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTbySfSD0&feature=related

You can also buy the Gracie Combatives dvds. Here is a review:
http://www.slideyfoot.com/2009/08/dvd-review-gracie-combatives-rener.html

While it is of course better to go to a gym and train, these are excellent resources. Very well presented and easy to learn from.

[MrQuickstep]

@Yoshiyahu -1) i love your response and would like to know more about "...five basic ways we generate power with a hand strike!

1.The Curl (structure and stance)
2. The Breath (chi)
3. The waist and hips (jing)
4. Torque or turning power (chum kiu)
5. Stepping of moving force (chum kiu) "

And how " The waist and hips (jing)" is different from "Torque or turning power (chum kiu)" in generating power?

2)Pressure point striking to me is waaayyy to hard to apply in a streetfight or sparring I rather pressure point graps or jointlocks.

@wingchunIan - I do know the chum kiu form and I understand what you're talking about with generating power from the waist e.g. when you're in a side body stance facing 12 o'clock with a right bong sao then you turn to your left to face 9 o'clock with a right rising/drilling punch...there's a lot of power in that strike but usually in the forms that movement is only used to regain the line and then proceeds with short power strikes (no more hips/waist). Also to me a wall bag/maize bag is used to train short strikes not strikes using 6 joints, how do you train strikes using 6 joints?

@the whole wing chun groundfighting issue - There 3 choices we can make.
1)wing chun is invincible and we will never be taken down in a streetfight cause the art is perfect and I'm just that good!

2)I'll cover up the groundfighting holes in my wing chun with brazilian jiu jitsu/any grapplying style and become unstoppable!

3)I'll try to cover up the groundfighting holes in my wing chun with brazilian jiu jitsu/any grapplying style but modifying it to follow wing chun concepts....I like this one the best but thats just me.

Thanks guys for the input and keep them coming.

[k gledhill]

If you don't have time to go to a grappling or BJJ gym, or if there isn't one around where you live, you can always get Tim Cartmell's "Ground Proofing" dvd. It's the essentials of ground fighting for da streetz. You can learn the stuff in a weekend, and if you practice it regularly with a partner/students, you will be waaay better off than having no idea of what to do on the ground.

Here is the trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTbySfSD0&feature=related

You can also buy the Gracie Combatives dvds. Here is a review:
http://www.slideyfoot.com/2009/08/dvd-review-gracie-combatives-rener.html

While it is of course better to go to a gym and train, these are excellent resources. Very well presented and easy to learn from.

Good stuff.

[Happy Tiger]

One thing I'm suprised at is why VT is'nt already integreted into a developed ground fighting scheme. If some one 200 years ago stuck chinese shuai jiao or something on it none of us would even be pontificating now. As a fond and happy grappler, VT is nothing but butter for me. I like going to the floor. I actually desire it, and VT is awsome for putting me where I want to be to do that. VT spends alot of, at least semi lucid time, in a range of combat that in reality usually passes by in an instant. VT, for me, really gives a great 'reference' system and set up style to have a safe trip down and superior position on arrival.The point being, using advanced VT with your goal to go to ground gladly in any position ,a percieved deficit of VT becomes a positve.

[Wayfaring]

If you don't have time to go to a grappling or BJJ gym, or if there isn't one around where you live, you can always get Tim Cartmell's "Ground Proofing" dvd. It's the essentials of ground fighting for da streetz. You can learn the stuff in a weekend, and if you practice it regularly with a partner/students, you will be waaay better off than having no idea of what to do on the ground.

Here is the trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTbySfSD0&feature=related

You can also buy the Gracie Combatives dvds. Here is a review:
http://www.slideyfoot.com/2009/08/dvd-review-gracie-combatives-rener.html

While it is of course better to go to a gym and train, these are excellent resources. Very well presented and easy to learn from.

I will second the recommendation of the Gracie Combatives. This is a self-defense oriented curriculum from White Belt to Blue Belt in the Gracie BJJ system. Ground fundamentals learned there apply to street type self defense conditions as opposed to just sport BJJ.

Tim Cartmell is also legit. He's got a pretty traditional martial art background before getting his black belt in BJJ, so many who have similar backgrounds might appreciate the perspective.

Roy Dean is another one like that: http://www.roydeanacademy.com/ - traditional strict Japanese marital art background, then adapting that kind of teaching style to BJJ.

[anerlich]

I'll try to cover up the groundfighting holes in my wing chun with brazilian jiu jitsu/any grapplying style but modifying it to follow wing chun concepts....I like this one the best but thats just me.


"Modifying a grappling style to follow wing chun concepts" is a great way to screw up a good grapping style.

The concepts are not the same. The guys that developed BJJ, wrestling etc. spent decades developing their own concepts. Foolish to throw all that out because you think because you know WC you can "improve" what they did. You can't.

Most WC guys think they can do this in BJJ until they get a bit past blue belt. Then they find "WC concepts" just get in the way.

[anerlich]

"Training with pro MMA fighters and BJJ black belts" isn't that great a stretch. I've done that since about 2006. Any large city will have several gyms like that.

[YouKnowWho]

modifying it to follow wing chun concepts....

Besides the "ground game", you should try to modify SC "leg twist", Judo "hip throw", or wrestling "single leg" to follow WC concept. You may find out that there is nothing that you can possibly modify.

[Wayfaring]

"Training with pro MMA fighters and BJJ black belts" isn't that great a stretch. I've done that since about 2006. Any large city will have several gyms like that.

As have I, and do that multiple times per week currently.

Which is why it sounded a little strange to hear that "Wing Chun works on the floor if you train it and put the effort into your short range power development both forward and backward" and hearing claims that someone without any formal ground training besides playing with Wing Chun on the floor would be able to defeat people like the caliber I train with every week. I'd have to see it to believe it!

[Sean66]

Actually, I think that wing chun and bjj share some very important concepts.
Like not using force against force and searching to apply leverage through the intelligent use of body positioning and angles to gain advantage over the opponent.

Tim Cartmell was here for a workshop a couple of weeks ago, and he said that he found that in bjj one used the same general principals that he had learned from his teachers in Taiwan and China.
Sticking and adhering, feeling the opponent's center and controlling it, feeling the opportunities to attack and throw or submit, changing spontaneously with the situation, letting the opponent show you how to defeat him, using superior positioning to gain strategic advantage before striking, throwing or submitting......these are all things found in both taiji and bjj.

[Sean66]

Here Tim talks about his experience in cma and bjj a bit:

http://www.budovideos.com/online/shows/rolledup/rolled-up-episode-27-tim-cartmell/

[Happy Tiger]

Actually, I think that wing chun and bjj share some very important concepts.
Like not using force against force and searching to apply leverage through the intelligent use of body positioning and angles to gain advantage over the opponent.

Tim Cartmell was here for a workshop a couple of weeks ago, and he said that he found that in bjj one used the same general principals that he had learned from his teachers in Taiwan and China.
Sticking and adhering, feeling the opponent's center and controlling it, feeling the opportunities to attack and throw or submit, changing spontaneously with the situation, letting the opponent show you how to defeat him, using superior positioning to gain strategic advantage before striking, throwing or submitting......these are all things found in both taiji and bjj.
That's why I keep saying, VT is an exellent pairing with a good ground system. If you have no worries at all going to the floor. Your wing chun will be that much more automatic and flowing. If mentally you make any overt deliberate attempt to stay upright you risk a break down in flow. In chi sao, look how often people hold by the hands and stall (ironically more often by two advance players, since their structure is such that access is dificult There is an old saying 'VT between two masters is boring'. ). In that instant a ground fighters gonna have plans. It doesn't matter that 'it's better to stay upright in a real fight'. Be that as it may, a fight goes where it goes. You may bump something or trip. You can do everything right and still be taken down, such is the X factor in violence. If up down are the same with no partiallity in spirit, or top technology, this is complete. If you are a VT pure player, you may have the high cards, but you're still playing with less than a full deck in many cases.If you are up against a fighter that knows what you know, and is comfortable and easy to go to the ground then you have only half a deck at best. It's cold comfort to know your VT is impeckable as your being ground and pounded into a pink mist

[Happy Tiger]

What you said is a whole lotta nothing you know that right? not as much nothing as you might first think, eh?

[anerlich]

Actually, I think that wing chun and bjj share some very important concepts.
Like not using force against force and searching to apply leverage through the intelligent use of body positioning and angles to gain advantage over the opponent.

That's true, but really these are laid claim to by most soft-style martial arts.


Tim Cartmell was here for a workshop a couple of weeks ago, and he said that he found that in bjj one used the same general principals that he had learned from his teachers in Taiwan and China.
Sticking and adhering, feeling the opponent's center and controlling it, feeling the opportunities to attack and throw or submit, changing spontaneously with the situation, letting the opponent show you how to defeat him, using superior positioning to gain strategic advantage before striking, throwing or submitting......these are all things found in both taiji and bjj.

"The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin, describes his journey to success in both world class chess and taiji push hands competition. The "push hands" described therein was a highly athletic endeavour which sounded much more like greco-roman wrestling than it did chi sao.

I admire Tim Cartmell and own several of his books on Jiu Jitsu.

I can't argue that there is no commonality between WC and BJJ (and taiji for that matter - I spent five years learning it so I have some inking and am not just talking out of my a$$ about subjects I know nothing about).

However, at intermediate and advanced levels of both arts the intersection on the Venn diagram gets smaller and smaller IMO.

We hear all the time the story about "emptying your cup" if you want to learn something new. Going into a grappling art with TCMA preconceptions is doing exactly the opposite. And before long you'll end up spilling that drink all over your pants.

[Happy Tiger]

That's true, but really these are laid claim to by most soft-style martial arts.



"The Art of Learning" by Josh Waitzkin, describes his journey to success in both world class chess and taiji push hands competition. The "push hands" described therein was a highly athletic endeavour which sounded much more like greco-roman wrestling than it did chi sao.

I admire Tim Cartmell and own several of his books on Jiu Jitsu.

I can't argue that there is no commonality between WC and BJJ (and taiji for that matter - I spent five years learning it so I have some inking and am not just talking out of my a$$ about subjects I know nothing about).

However, at intermediate and advanced levels of both arts the intersection on the Venn diagram gets smaller and smaller IMO.

We hear all the time the story about "emptying your cup" if you want to learn something new. Going into a grappling art with TCMA preconceptions is doing exactly the opposite. And before long you'll end up spilling that drink all over your pants.
I don't see any reason TCMA concepts can't be applied to horizontal combat. In fact, cultivating chi, holding posture, linking\un linking etc. are all applicable actually enhancing to ground work. Besides shuai shao, isn't there a kind of chinese wrestling that would fall under TCMA?

[Happy Tiger]

In grappling,there are two basic approaches to entering. In many more traditional grappling\joint locking arts, the norm is to control\work the limb and outer joints, then work in to the core for submission .An elegant approach that looks fabulous and may work in surprise\authority security situations. In jiu jitsu such as Kano Jiu jitsu and Brazilian Jiu jitsu the idea is to blitz the core and work your way out to control the limb\quarter and gain submission. A rugged approach that requires more sacrifice but seems to be worth it. VT is more like the latter or the former in execution?

[anerlich]

I don't see any reason TCMA concepts can't be applied to horizontal combat.

It can.

what I take issue with is applying TCMA concepts to a non-TCMA grappling art, in the unwarranted belief that TCMA concepts will be better than the grappling art's own concepts developed by its own practitioners over generations.

[Sean66]

in the unwarranted belief that TCMA concepts will be better than the grappling art's own concepts developed by its own practitioners over generations.

I, for one, I'm definitely not saying this.

.

[Happy Tiger]

It can.

what I take issue with is applying TCMA concepts to a non-TCMA grappling art, in the unwarranted belief that TCMA concepts will be better than the grappling art's own concepts developed by its own practitioners over generations.
Fair enough but I don't see why one must supersede the other. VT is an example. Many players play VT in such a way as to hardly be called TCMA at all.Others (like me) are pretty 'grease ball' about it and do. It seems to work pretty good with either outlook. Is one 'wrong' or 'distorted' because of this? I guess many would say yes. I mean, in this context we are talking about 'atributes' more than we're talking techniques. In this forum I don't see any problem. If we are talking shapes and fighting techniques peculiar to TCMA i suppose there might be a conflict of intrest there that could muck up yer game. Like trying to use VT as is on the ground has limited results in the light of modern fighting particularly without a great deal of time spent on the ground working it out.I apply TCMA attributes to my ground game with no conflict so far. I see no difference in my experience with upright fighting to ground fighting as far as when your up your up when your down your down. It's all amatter of appropriate use IMO.

[Sean66]

Styles can share underlying principals because these are principals that govern all efficient human movement. At the same time they can generate different technical expressions of these principals, due to preferences in strategy.

From Tim's website:


In summary, it is important to remember that an almost unlimited number of efficient martial techniques (those based on true balance and natural power, which allow us to use our strengths against an opponent's weaknesses and remove us from the threat of physical harm as quickly as possible) are created and developed from a relatively small number of basic principles of body use and technical application. It may be helpful to think of techniques (including the methods of body use as well as martial applications) as being physical manifestations of underlying principles. The principles of body use and application are the unchanging foundations of unlimited technical expression. And the focused awareness of mind and body unity in practice is the method through which martial movements and techniques become internalized, and therefore useful. These principles and their method of internalization form the essence of martial art.

[anerlich]

I mean, in this context we are talking about 'atributes' more than we're talking techniques.

You might be. I'm not.

I was disputing an assertion made by another poster that he was applying WC principles to BJJ or another grappling art on the assumption that BJJ would somehow magically get better because he'd introduced WC principles.

It'd be like a wrestler turning up at you WC class, ignoring what the instructor said and saying chi sao will work better using inside control, handfighting, etc.


I apply TCMA attributes to my ground game with no conflict so far.

I guess the big question is how far is "so far".

Three classes a week for ten years on groundfighting? That's what most grappling instructors have ,at the very least.

[anerlich]

I, for one, I'm definitely not saying this.

No, and I never thought you were.

[Happy Tiger]

You might be. I'm not.

I was disputing an assertion made by another poster that he was applying WC principles to BJJ or another grappling art on the assumption that BJJ would somehow magically get better because he'd introduced WC principles.

It'd be like a wrestler turning up at you WC class, ignoring what the instructor said and saying chi sao will work better using inside control, handfighting, etc.



I guess the big question is how far is "so far".

Three classes a week for ten years on groundfighting? That's what most grappling instructors have ,at the very least.
Well, I wouldn't say that but I think I get your point. At least you know what to expect if you walk my side of the street.
:)
P.S. If grappling was offered in tandem with the 'standard' curriculum a person wouldn't feel the need for an extra three times a week for another ten years.

[anerlich]

P.S. If grappling was offered in tandem with the 'standard' curriculum a person wouldn't feel the need for an extra three times a week for another ten years.

The WC school I attend is also a Machado BJJ affiliate. Since 1999. Way ahead of you.

[Happy Tiger]

The WC school I attend is also a Machado BJJ affiliate. Since 1999. Way ahead of you.
I respect.

:cool:

[Yoshiyahu]

Certainly MrQuickStep...thanks for your kindness.

I will answer your questions backwards...First off pressure point striking. I agree in utilizing pressure grabs or locks and joint manipulation. But to me you have to be lead there by the opponent. With pressure point striking you can be lead there by the opponent or open the door with a basic techniques like Lop Sau or Jut Sau to get the strike off.

Simply when i say pressure points I don't just mean the little small points you use some special hand technique to strike with. I mean there is a pressure point at the bridge of your mouth or upper lips. Cops use it to subdue someone. Hit this point with a fist or ginger fist...You can do this with free motion striking. Also the Temples are pressure points. As well as the back of the head at the base of the neck. In addition to that behind the ears is weak point and certain parts of neck and throat you can strike with a ridge hand, fist or gingerfist....

Now there are ways to condition and train pressure point striking with a wall bag, century bob and drills and padded sparring. But forget about all that. Just think about how you knocked someone down or you dropped someone when you were using minimal force. That was a pressure point to strike. But I simply say remember about 7 points you feel you can easily hit on the majority of people some high and some low...No more than ten points...An instead of training an iron skill...Why not use a phillips head screw driver, ice pic or or one of those hard bullet fountain pens to strike those points on the body if you can get to them...

The key points to strike in my Kung Fu is:

1.The Nose (break or draw blood)
2.The Throat or adams apple (Punch or pinch the adams apple)
3.The groin Kick or slap hard with a inverted palm strike

Secondary targets are
1.Kick the Knees, scrape the shin
2.Punch the mouth,chin or jaw
3.Grab the back of the neck while elbowing in the face


This is what i go for in a fight....

How the torque or turning power is different than the waist Jing...

In my Wing Chun we can use our structure to add more extension to the punch by turning or shifting our horse. This in turns adds more penetration. The entire horse moves in unison with the fist thrusting outwards. We Shift/Turn on the balls of our feet not the heels. Of course extra techniques can be added to give more power like stepping into the opponent as you turn, jing in the hips or waist. or even utilizing of short breath over the natual breathing.

The Curl in my kung fu is what you call the concave chest. in short The Chest is sunken and back is raise. "Pull in the chest, push out the upper back, and bring in the tail bone."

This is something that happens over time from training various drills and conditioning exercises. I never practiced forming a curl. It just comes natural. What you practice is how to utilize the curl. When your reclining or when your at ease standing. Your chest will naturally sink in. Unless your a military man train to stick out your chest with an exaggerated posture. The back is not hunched and the chest is not forced into that posistion. Normally its just that way. We call it the curl.

There are two ways to expel power with the curl.

1.Guards out in Double Wu Sao, Punch while splitting the chest or releasing the curl. when your punch goes out you straighting your body on impact for more extension. Kinda of like a snake that is coiled(curled) and then when it strikes(bites) it straightens for a short second and goes back to its coil. Look at a Rattle Snake or Cobra when they strike straighting out or thrusting out causing their whole structure to change shape!


Rattle Snake strikes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxb6jZ-mMak&feature=related)

Snake Coils and Strikes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G3jCMRWYoM)

Imagine holding the string of the bow. The indentation of the bow and the tension on the bow it self causes both sides to concave inwards towards one another. When the power is release the string goes back straight and the bow goes back to its normal state. The Power is in the Curl. Its not until you release the bow so that it goes straight does power go out. As Long as you hold the bow in a curl the power is potential when the curl is release the power is actual. Also theres a section in Chum Kiu where your in a natural relax state with the double tan sau and then stomp the ground with a double palm strike...This is also an example of Curl to straight to release power. Curl = Potential or Stored Energy, Straight = Actual or Released Energy.


This is the external way to release the curl. Of course its both internal and external. But this the basic way to utilize the curl. You utilize your power structure to give you more penetration or extension. The Siu Lien Tao in my kung fu has a section with wu sau, fok sau thrice. In it you utilize the the curl to emit or generate internal power. This is more advance way to use the curl. The format is different as you go from straight body to curl body upon impact. Two different structures of a snake. Some snakes attack straight and curl around the opponent and other snakes start off coil and an straighten as they strike. In wu sau coming inward the structure straightens. In Fok Sau dispeling force outward the body curls. Thus upon impact you curl. You can also practice the emission of power utilizing both aspects of the curl to have a condition cycle of attacks utilizing the curl. You train the curl all the time doing the San Sik and doing The Forms Like CK and SLT among other things.


Jing in the Waist or Hips is similiar to what you see chen stylist do when they vibrate the body but not so exaggerated. The training for the Jing is kinda just really shaking the hips to loosen them up. Its more like a stretching or exercising them. You do this for a few minutes every day it makes your Jing stronger. Since in my Wing Chun our structure is different. The Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma is narrower than Yip man lineage. We bring our knees closer together. This is ideal when with in elbow range as you can easily shift and turn the body to administer elbow strikes. In close with a wider stance like Yip Man wing chun it will be harder with shifting. You give up some rootedness for speed and effeciancy. Since the Knees are closer in and the YGKYM is narrower and the horse is smaller. The Jing is more effective with a smaller horse oppose to a wider horse. The Jing we use is shorter than Tai Chi jing. Its short energy. Trying to Jing in this fashion in Yip man horse will be as difficult as trying to shift or turn on the balls of the foot.So you train the Jing to admister more short force. The entire Structure vibrates or jings upon impact. Its more like exploding. You can vibrate the hips or shake the hips upon impact. The Fist and arm vibrates as it thrust out upon impact. It does for some reason deliver more power if done upon impact. Its kinda like a displacement of weight when you step foward while punching. The theory behind the isolated drill of developing or cultivating ging in your hips is the more you do the stronger your jing will be. You combine the jing in the hips or waist with hands and other parts of the body that jing together. Bringing force from the ground up into the opponent. You can also sink in your stance upon impact or right before and jing for different variation of force.

As for the breath I say breath naturally and use the WC short breath sparingly. But upon impact you expel force while exhaling. The Exhale is a short breath. You breath in and out through the nose in a rapid succession which each strike. We practice the forms and san sik with the breath to develop the breath further. Also using the breath in sparring is something you should incorporate in addition to natural breathing. The idea behind the breath is your cycling chi throught your body along with jing through your strikes. As breathing out upon impact you train the body to send chi and jing out with each punch.


Last but not Least Chasing Horse and Shooting Horse...When you dart/lunge forward like Biu Ma or you gallop/skip forward like Toh Ma your body weight displacement is sending your force foward into your opponent. Same when you sink down and punch outward. You send force via your fist to your opponent causing him eat the force an sink down into his stance to do internal damage. Sinking force while striking goes deeper into the internal organs. Striking while rising from the sink repels or expels your opponent causing him to loose his structure penetrate deeper into muscle tissue upon impact. Something simliar is going on with Chasing horse and Darting Horse.

Running after the opponent as you chain strike down his centerline allows you to either keep up with your opponent as he flees or it allows you more extension and weight behind your punches as your body mass converges on his structure causing him to cave. Lunging into the opponent in the midst of his open doors will allow you deeper penetration and harder impact since your body weight and mass is converging on your target at faster rate. The amount force you expel will be heavier and deeper. As you skip or lunge into your opponets centre while striking the back foot drags or remains somewhat connected to the ground. The theory behind weight distrbution in this horse is 30/70. of course depending on the situtation those numbers may change.


I pray that clears up each question MrQuickStep. I attempted to summarize each technique seeing there were a few i was detailing...of course if you want to know about any particular ones in a greater detail let me know.

[Yoshiyahu]

Surprise, No one bashed my response...lol

[LoneTiger108]

Maybe the sheer length just stunned people into silence lol! ;)

And before anyone else says anything... that is the length of his post :eek: :D

[Yoshiyahu]

Maybe the sheer length just stunned people into silence lol! ;)

And before anyone else says anything... that is the length of his post :eek: :D

lol...i tried to be brief in my explanation to his questions..sad thing is my brief is other peoples elongated.

[wolf3001]

Wing Chun isn't perfect no art is. That being said why can't I use a throw or arm break or whatever. There are arm breaks and several sweeps and what not in my school that are found in our forms. I would like to see a guy try to continue a fight after I shovel kick his knee backwards. There are plenty of moves that will end a fight in Wing Chun.

I had class earlier 2 of our guys were sparring and one ended up on his face. This is a direct quote from his facebook page.

Had fun today in class haha!, but then I found myself on the floor! that sweep came outa nowhere! Lesson learned I think?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=wolf3001;1168707]Wing Chun isn't perfect no art is. That being said why can't I use a throw or arm break or whatever.
----------------------------------------

IMO you can if you can!