Internal Power [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

YouKnowWho

03-29-2012, 07:32 PM

A: I have "internal power" and you don't.
B: Whether I have "internal power" or not should not be your concern. Can you explain how did you develop your "internal power"?
A: I don't want to make that information available to the public.
B: Can you at least put up a clip to show your "internal power"?
A: Even if I put up a clip, You still won't be able to see it. I can only show you in person.

Do you agree with A's argument?

IMO, if you have "internal power (IP)" in your

- punch, you should be able to put up a clip to show how you will apply your "internal power" on a heavy bag.
- throw, you should be able to put up a clip to show how you will apply your "internal power" on a throwing dummy.

I know this is not an "internal" forum, but if something you are not willing to share, you should not start a thread and talk about it. That kind of attitude bother me big time.

What's your opinion on this?

IronFist

03-29-2012, 08:58 PM

Sounds like some "guru" nonsense.

I would want to see quantifiable proof showing that the "internal power" is not something that can be explained away by muscular strength, proper application of body mechanics, parlor tricks, or physics.

For example, if someone is using "internal power" to break the bottom brick, how is that different than using physics to break the bottom brick?

If someone is using "internal power" to withstand blows to the stomach, why are their abs tensed at the moment of impact and how is that any different from taking a blow to the stomach without using "internal power."

So far I have never seen an example of this.

There's even a guy on youtube who breaks the bottom brick with a sledge hammer. If he was a "guru" he could tell people he was projecting his qi through the hammer and into the brick. What a high level of skill!

Every "iron body" demo I've seen that involved sledge hammers to the stomach involved the recipient flexing every muscle in his body at the moment of impact. Usually they're fat, too, which helps absorb the strike. That's physics and proper application of body mechanics, not "internal power."

The correct test for "iron body" is this:

1) the practitioner is blindfolded so he can't tell when the strike is coming and flex

2) the practitioner can do qigong for as long as he likes, and then give a signal when his qi is built up to sufficient levels, and at some point after that the strike will come.

3) the practitioner is not wearing a shirt so observers can help look for visual cues to see if he's flexing his muscles

4) the practitioner's abs are not tightened at the moment of impact because he is absorbing the blow with internal energy rather than tensed muscles

Please note: Because everyone gets butthurt every time this gets brought up, the ability to absorb a sledgehammer blow to the stomach requires a high level of skill. You should be proud of your accomplishments. I'm not saying you're a p.ussy, and I'm not saying you have no skill. I'm just saying, tell it like it is: you're absorbing the blow the same way boxers and everyone else does. There's no mystic internal energy there.

Of course, then the "gurus," backed into a corner with science and logic, will say "but qi is responsible for all of that, so if you're flexing your muscles you're still using qi and internal power."

But let's not be ridiculous. That's not the (mystical kung fu) impression you're trying to give when you tell people you have internal power.

Now excuse me, I'm off to the gym to lift some weights (with my qi, since qi is responsible for muscle movement).

So to answer your question, person A is most likely a charlatan. If not, he should give James Randi a call rather than arguing about it on the internet, because James' $1,000,000 prize would make him a lot more money than he will get ripping off gullible students who want to learn "teh secretz of internal powAr!!!"

YouKnowWho

03-29-2012, 10:46 PM

I'm off to the gym to lift some weights ...

I have asked this question before and I have not be able to get any answer from anybody yet.

What's the difference between using "internal" power to lift weight vs. using "external" power to lift weight? For some unknown reason, "internal" guys just don't want to talk about "lift" and I don't know why.

Does anybody have answer for this question?

xiao yao

03-29-2012, 11:23 PM

i really think "internal power" is just correct body mechanics, understanding and application of relaxation and tension and use of intent.

xiao yao

03-29-2012, 11:29 PM

i spent some time learning a qigong system which was supposed to build up "internal power". we would do standing postures then hit trees and iron palm bags. really, the power to break bricks had little to do with the qigong itself, but from the repetition of striking the bags or trees

some people who had done the qigong for a year or more still couldnt break a brick, yet others can break a brick without even doing qigong

Dragonzbane76

03-30-2012, 03:59 AM

Where is TGY when u need him...:)

RenDaHai

03-30-2012, 04:41 AM

The word 'internal' is a word I try never to use in MA.

Using it without explaining EXACTLY what you mean by it simply means you have no idea what your talking about.

There are several types of 'internal power' in KungFu, but the problem is everyone says internal but they are talking about different things. Typically these things are;

1. Structure
2. Breath
3. 'Internal' Muscle
4. Intent
5. Qi

Structure is like, if you are lifting a box you lift with your knees not your lower back...I don't think this should be called internal, its structure, and that's a better word for it. Or body mechanics.

Breath, if you are out of breath you feel weak. Also breath is directly linked to concentration. But breath is a better word than internal for this.

Internal muscle, i don't know what this is but people talk about it.... Someone please enlighten me.

Intent, Intent is more powerful than any physical attribute. This is true. My master used to say 'Your fist is a gun, but your mind is the bullet'. Again, intent is a better word than internal here.

Qi. There are many types. Often Qi is the language of communication between the mind and the body. It is many mental/physical sensations, some of which can be evoked or controlled. This could be referred to as internal. Its use is in deep meditation and many mysterious things, but I have never seen any evidence to suggest it makes you physically stronger. It is more an element of the mind.

I think if people want to talk about 'internal' they should define what they mean first. Otherwise don't talk about it, or go back to your master and understand it before you teach it.

mickey

03-30-2012, 07:13 AM

Greetings,

The best question to ask "A" after his first statement is -- What can you do with it?

We all have this "internal power". We are born with it. Some may call it pre natal chi. Still, it is how we use it, how we express it, and the cultivation that leads to such manifestations that makes all the difference. If "A" cannot break it down for you, leave him to his world of delusion.

mickey

SPJ

03-30-2012, 07:24 AM

internal and external not vs

they are 2 aspects of the same thing/body yi ti liang mian

we have to train both aspects to be better.

we may train external aspect first then improve on internal

or we may train internal aspect first then external later.

the first path is called wai jia

the second path is called nei jia.

not one without the other.

due to gravity pull from mother earth

our bone, muscle and heart are constantly working against it.

etc etc.

:cool:

David Jamieson

03-30-2012, 08:43 AM

1. Yes I believe in internal power
2. Yes, you cannot "see" it, but then again, yes you can!
3. Yes, some people do not access internal power and although strong and able to lift large objects etc, they do not have the ability to expel force in teh form of striking very well because they lack the internal power.

When you develop an ability to see, you will be able to tell by how a man carries himself whether or not he possesses something special.

It is not common. If it was common, every jackwagon on the circuit would be upright, smooth and cool about the dangerousness of their being. lol

Some have it and don't realize they have it. These people are especially interesting to me.

Some people have it and have developed it through entirely different means than anything prescribed by asian martial arts. For instance Jack LaLanne had tremendous internal power.

Just to clarify, Internal Power isn't = to core strength, but that is part of it. Internal power is when the whole machine that is you is running hot and optimally. you are able to sense all and have a state of awareness and ability that is more than average when you develop outward and inward understanding.

mickey

03-30-2012, 09:41 AM

WHAT CAN YOU DO WITH IT?

mickey

taai gihk yahn

03-30-2012, 10:07 AM

Where is TGY when u need him...:)

trying to have a life outside the forum...;)

in a nutshell, "internal power" comes from, I believe, a level of body awareness (proprioception) that enables you to seamlessly coordinate muscle function with breathing and ground reaction force coming up through your legs / spine; meaning that, you can have good "internal" power, but may not be as physically strong as a guy who strength trains; meaning that, IMPO, there is a qualitative aspect that can't necessarily be measured / quantified; qigong is one way to get this, but I believe you can also obtain it doing things as varied as wrestling, Alexander Technique, Pilates, even flamenco (based on what I saw in Spain last week); it has to do with ease and economy of usage; it can be a useful compliment in fighting, but I don't think is the end-all, be-all;

to talk about it as if it doesn't "exist" per se, I don't buy that, but to see it as quasi-mystical, and unachievable outside of the realm of TCMA is not right either; if it exists as an intrinsic human capability, than by necessity it can be achievable in many ways;

the problem is that many people use the seemingly esoteric nature of it to build their practice and themselves up in a way that makes them "special" as compared to others who engage in more "primitive" pursuits such as weight lifting...

IronFist

03-30-2012, 10:20 AM

Scott R. Brown

03-30-2012, 10:27 AM

Where is TGY when u need him...:)

Who is TGY?

....and,

What's a life, and where can I get one of those thingies?

IronFist

03-30-2012, 10:27 AM

These discussions always get derailed.

Everyone here knows that when someone talks about "internal" anything, they are talking about qi, mystic power being used in mystic ways to give abilities and skills above those who don't do "internal" training. But the slick-talking snakeoil salesmen "gurus" always derail the conversation into "well qi is all of life, you get qi from food, so when you lift weights, you're using qi" and other nonsense, when everyone except the most gullible of gullibles knows that's NOT what is being discussed.

Then you get the people who "want to believe" so they change the definition of internal so they don't think they've wasted years of training on nothing. "Well, to me, 'internal' training is about having proper body alignment and breath coordination and blah blah blah" all of those things are external and have no qi or mystic internal energy component.

I am not talking about possibly intangible health benefits. If doing standing post qigong makes you feel better, then by all means, keep it up! You can't quantify if you feel better or not to anyone else.

It's just this "I stop punches with my qi" or "I root myself with qi and cannot be pushed over" nonsense that no one can prove because it's all stage tricks and proper application of physics. You're not actually sending your qi through your feet into the earth and creating a root with it like magical glue to hold you in place when someone pushes you.

Just like a fat guy flexing his abs and rounding his back and exhaling when he is struck with a sledgehammer is not protecting himself with qi. He's protecting himself with physics and proper body mechanics, and the same thing can be done by a non "internal" guy who has had the right training.

Much of the mystique and appeal of the TMA, especially TCMA, comes from the internal component. Look at all the demos (stage tricks) and stuff that make noobs and the uninitiated think "wow, that guy has mystic power!" TCMA banks on this kind of stuff! Look how many "develop your qi power" courses there are in MA magazines. People want to learn that stuff, so it's in the interest of the art to perpetuate the myth.

Physical conditioning is real. If you hit your forearms with iron body bags, they will become less sensitive to pain, and the bone will become more dense over time (Wolff's law). But it's not qi. Thai boxers, with their strictly external training, have just as good of shin conditioning as TCMA guys who do iron shin training with the iron body bags and all the qigong components that accompany it. But the fraudsters downplay the role of the external conditioning and instead tell the audience that "he is sending his qi into his shins to protect them" to add to the mystical component, when what is really "protecting" his shins is the years of external conditioning that was slowly increased over time. Of course, the audience wants mystic power, so people give them mystic power.

You guys probably fall for those "magnetic energy bracelets," too, because the guy demoing them showed you that you're harder to pull off balance when you're wearing one. Holy crap it's aligning your qi! Better buy one for each wrist and have unstoppable chi powerz!!!

YouKnowWho

03-30-2012, 11:22 AM

Here is somone's term "IP - Internal strength and being known for weird power. Use of jins in an unusual fashion different than a normal grappling feel".

You can't use "internal" power to lift weights.

If that's correct then what can we do with it? Can we use it in

- straight punch?
- roundhouse kick?
- elbow lock?
- hip throw?

When most people talk about "IP", they avoid to talk about how to use it in roundhouse kick and hip throw. I just hate to see that "IP" can only be used to "push" people away.

This subject suppose to belong to the "internal" forum. Since I have discussed this subject in other "internal" form for the past 10 years and still don't get my questions answered. I though may be I'll try in this forum instead. My questions are:

How to use IP on:

- heavy bag?
- throwing dummy?
- weight lift (IronFist just said that I can't)?
- roundhouse kick?
- hip throw?

Lucas

03-30-2012, 11:44 AM

YouKnowWho

03-30-2012, 12:05 PM

When someone said, "I do internal training, and I apply internal skill in fighting."

What does he means?

IronFist

03-30-2012, 12:07 PM

If that's correct then what can we do with it?

I don't know. I am still waiting for an "internal" guy to use his internal qi power to do something that cannot be explained by physics, physical conditioning, proper body mechanics or stage tricks.

Can we use it in

- straight punch?
- roundhouse kick?
- elbow lock?
- hip throw?

In order to use internal power for those, they would have to contain some element than a regular straight punch, roundhouse kick, etc. does not contain.

For example, have the internal guy throw a straight punch. Now have him throw a straight punch with internal power. What is the difference? What changed? What quantifiable variable is different between the two straight punches?

How to use IP on:

- heavy bag?
- throwing dummy?
- weight lift (IronFist just said that I can't)?
- roundhouse kick?
- hip throw?

Ask them how using their internal power on those techniques is different from when an external stylist, such as a kickboxer, a muay Thai guy, a western boxer, or a power lifter performs those same techniques.

IronFist

03-30-2012, 12:07 PM

When someone said, "I do internal training, and I apply internal skill in fighting."

What does he means?

He means he wants you to think he has mystic powers that normal people don't have.

Lucas

03-30-2012, 12:08 PM

He means he wants you to think he has mystic powers that normal people don't have.

pretty much.

IronFist

03-30-2012, 12:14 PM

ive always viewed 'internal' is just having very good coordination (structure, mechanics, breath, etc) throughout your movements by utilizing the whole body as one single unit. effeciency. i think you can do absolutely anything with 'internal' movement. sometimes when people use the word 'skill' i think it can roughly equates to the same thing.

I understand what you are saying.

But that is not what most people mean when they talk about internal power, qi, etc.

By your definition, an Olympic lifter has good internal power.

By your definition, a western boxer has good internal power.

I think you are just talking about "unconscious competency" as some call it. Your nervous system is efficient at performing the techniques and you can do them effectively without thinking and without much effort.

The first time someone tries a barbell squat, they are shaky and don't have the form right and aren't comfortable with it.

A powerlifter who has been squatting for 10 years can do it without even thinking about it.

But that's not qi. That's not mystic power. That's just physical and nervous system adaptation to a movement.

however, I, like others here, i dont like to use the term 'internal' because i think there are better ways to describe what is going on, rather than using some vague term that means different things to different people. and yes i think that people in all faucets of physical endeavvors achieve 'internal' from tennis to mma

Agreed.

"Internal" means qi, no touch knockouts, rooting, mystic power nonsense. It doesn't mean you're skilled at and familiar with a movement.

Mostly it is the fraudsters who have given "internal" a bad name. However, I wonder how far back this fraud goes. Hundreds of years ago in China, were people trying to convince others that they could stop attacks using their qi (as opposed to muscular tension, physics, and proper application of body mechanics)? I bet back in the day, convincing people you had magic power may have been a survival technique. "Don't mess with those kung fu guys, they have magic powers. Let's go pick on someone else."

But now it's just silly. Like that guy on Stan Lee's Superhumans who took a drill to his head and protected himself with his qi power. Ridiculous. They even hooked a sensor up to his arm muscles to prove he was actually pressing it into his head. What they didn't mention was that his other arm was pulling away with just as much tension, with a net result of 0 force being pressed into his head.

Snakeoil.

But people eat that up. "Hey, look at that monk with mystic powers! Wow that's awesome!"

And it's just kind of accepted in American society that Asian monks and gurus have mystic powers, so no one really looks at it critically. People just accept that Asian stuff is mystical and magic. That air of mysticism is what snakeoil salesmen and qi gurus use to profit.

Lucas

03-30-2012, 12:16 PM

Ask them how using their internal power on those techniques is different from when an external stylist, such as a kickboxer, a muay Thai guy, a western boxer, or a power lifter performs those same techniques.

they cannot explain it, because there is no difference. a long time boxer will have such effeciency of motion in his strikes, that an amature cannot compare 'internal' cma practitioner cannot hope to match his punching power. because the boxer has more 'internal' development through repetition and refinement of motion.

YouKnowWho

03-30-2012, 12:20 PM

When I was young, I loved to touch hands with people who claimed to have combat skill. One day I told my teacher that I want to meet some "internal" guy to experience their superhuman power. My teacher said, "I have traveled in China from north to south, and I haven't been able to experience that. What do you think that you will have better luck than I do in your generation?"

Lucas

03-30-2012, 12:20 PM

I understand what you are saying.

But that is not what most people mean when they talk about internal power, qi, etc.

By your definition, an Olympic lifter has good internal power.

By your definition, a western boxer has good internal power.

I think you are just talking about "unconscious competency" as some call it. Your nervous system is efficient at performing the techniques and you can do them effectively without thinking and without much effort.

The first time someone tries a barbell squat, they are shaky and don't have the form right and aren't comfortable with it.

A powerlifter who has been squatting for 10 years can do it without even thinking about it.

But that's not qi. That's not mystic power. That's just physical and nervous system adaptation to a movement.

Agreed.

"Internal" means qi, no touch knockouts, rooting, mystic power nonsense. It doesn't mean you're skilled at and familiar with a movement.

Mostly it is the fraudsters who have given "internal" a bad name. However, I wonder how far back this fraud goes. Hundreds of years ago in China, were people trying to convince others that they could stop attacks using their qi (as opposed to muscular tension, physics, and proper application of body mechanics)? I bet back in the day, convincing people you had magic power may have been a survival technique. "Don't mess with those kung fu guys, they have magic powers. Let's go pick on someone else."

But now it's just silly. Like that guy on Stan Lee's Superhumans who took a drill to his head and protected himself with his qi power. Ridiculous. They even hooked a sensor up to his arm muscles to prove he was actually pressing it into his head. What they didn't mention was that his other arm was pulling away with just as much tension, with a net result of 0 force being pressed into his head.

Snakeoil.

But people eat that up. "Hey, look at that monk with mystic powers! Wow that's awesome!"

And it's just kind of accepted in American society that Asian monks and gurus have mystic powers, so no one really looks at it critically. People just accept that Asian stuff is mystical and magic. That air of mysticism is what snakeoil salesmen and qi gurus use to profit.

ya i get you, and i agree that its probably a pretty old scam. i dont believe that 'internal' is anything mystical, simply that people would like others to believe it is.

IronFist

03-30-2012, 12:20 PM

they cannot explain it, because there is no difference. a long time boxer will have such effeciency of motion in his strikes, that an amature cannot compare 'internal' cma practitioner cannot hope to match his punching power. because the boxer has more 'internal' development through repetition and refinement of motion.

Exactly, there is no difference, because you cannot infuse a punch or kick with internal qi power and make it different from a regular punch or kick.

And if anyone can, please call James Randi.

IronFist

03-30-2012, 12:21 PM

ya i get you, and i agree that its probably a pretty old scam. i dont believe that 'internal' is anything mystical, simply that people would like others to believe it is.

Agreed http://smiliesftw.com/x/highfive.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

I was banned from another well-known kung fu forum for talking about this stuff.

The "gurus" don't like people exposing the truth.

Lucas

03-30-2012, 12:21 PM

Lucas

03-30-2012, 12:22 PM

Agreed http://smiliesftw.com/x/highfive.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

I was banned from another well-known kung fu forum for talking about this stuff.

The snakeoil salesmen don't like people exposing the truth.

lol so sad its true

IronFist

03-30-2012, 12:26 PM

the other day someone new to 'tai chi' you know the hippy kind, made mention of people floating you know in old temples and crap...i dont even address that junk anymore. im tired. sick and tired of correcting people

if people want to believe in the easter bunny or floating monks...fine.

There was a whole show a few months back about some dude (a stage magician) who went to Tibet or China or something to meet a monk who could supposedly levitate. Some of the townspeople were afraid of the monk, thinking he had mystic power. Along the way, he met other "performers" like one guy who would stick a nail through his tongue, but he revealed the to camera that it was a pig tongue or something which he secretly slipped into his mouth. SLEIGHT OF HAND.

Eventually the guy found the monk and he agreed to demonstrate his levitation.

Of course, the camera guys and the guy had to stand back and couldn't film from certain angles :rolleyes:

It was pretty obvious he was being lifted up by some machine in the floor or wall.

At the end of the show, even the host was like "well, who knows if it was a trick or not."

I was so annoyed that I wasted an hour watching that. I mean, I knew it was gonna be dumb, but it was really dumb.

IronFist

03-30-2012, 12:31 PM

lol so sad its true

Seriously.

This is my favorite kung fu forum on the internet. Not only are all topics allowed here, but administrator Gene Ching even allows critical discussion and debate and different points of view http://smiliesftw.com/x/biggthumpup.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)

Lucas

03-30-2012, 12:36 PM

Thats cuz he has an army of nacho ninjettes, he aint ascare of nuthin. this is actually the only internet forum i visit.

Shaolin

03-30-2012, 12:57 PM

Neeros

03-30-2012, 03:13 PM

At my level, my opinion is if a practitioner can't logically explain the use and development of "internal" power referencing or modeling their statements based on scientific theory such as thermodynamics they probably don't know what they're talking about; which most don't.

So essentially all the generations of past masters of the eastern "internal arts" had no clue what they were talking about as they had no background in western science and did not model their experiences through western scientific theories?

wenshu

03-30-2012, 03:51 PM

If you are a seditious 17th century Han Chinese then maybe you know something about "internal power" but you can't really talk about it directly.

IronFist

03-30-2012, 04:39 PM

Sometimes the fraudster messes up, with hilarious (although tragic) results.

Watch this video as mystic power protects against knife cuts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5hCczfGYv0

Neeros

03-30-2012, 05:04 PM

If you are a seditious 17th century Han Chinese then maybe you know something about "internal power" but you can't really talk about it directly.

How would being a rebellious 17th century Han make you know anything about internal force? And why can't one talk about it directly?

taai gihk yahn

03-30-2012, 05:13 PM

So essentially all the generations of past masters of the eastern "internal arts" had no clue what they were talking about as they had no background in western science and did not model their experiences through western scientific theories?

yes and no;

yes, they knew what they were talking about in terms of a) their personal direct experiences with the various body-based phenomena experienced due to their training, and b) they were able to describe internal practice utilizing the metaphorical language of Taoist internal alchemy;

no, they didn't know what they were talking about, because they had no concept of biochemistry, cellular physiology, neuroanatomy / physiology (especially the autonomic nervous system, which mediates much of what occurs during qigong practice), or even basic muscle anatomy (to wit - the conflation of muscle, tendon and ligament as "sinews"); as such, the best they could do was to describe their experiences and employ a theoretical paradigm that revolved around macro pattern observation; that was the limit of their technology at the time, plain and simple;

the problem is that many people think that there is intrinsically no better way to talk about qigong / internal practice than in the dense and abstruse imagery of Taoist Alchemy, and that so-called "western science" will never be able to adequately describe what is happening;

so-called "ancient masters" did the best they could to describe physiological function with what they had at the time; but now we have better, more accurate means available; so in a very real sense, we know more than the ancient masters did;

GeneChing

03-30-2012, 05:41 PM

Seriously.

This is my favorite kung fu forum on the internet. Not only are all topics allowed here, but administrator Gene Ching even allows critical discussion and debate and different points of view http://smiliesftw.com/x/biggthumpup.gif (http://smiliesftw.com)
Wouldn't be much of a discussion forum if we didn't allow for some debate. Thanks for your support, IF!

Thats cuz he has an army of nacho ninjettes, he aint ascare of nuthin. this is actually the only internet forum i visit.
I'm always scared that the cheese will go cold and the chips will go soggy. Cold soggy nachos are such a bum out.

IronFist

03-30-2012, 06:28 PM

Back in the day I can see how Chinese kung fu dudes may have thought they were manipulating qi moving through their bodies.

I fully understand how a concept such as that of "qi" could develop, and I also understand that it would be natural to try and experiment and see if one could manipulate it. I think that is human nature.

But I wonder how it transitioned from that into the parlor tricks we see today. At what point did it go from "if I do standing post qigong I can feel the qi moving through my body" to "I'm going to absorb strikes to my body with muscular tension, body conditioning, and proper application of physics, but I am going to blame it on mystical energy so people think I have magic powers."?

Seriously the only thing I can think of is that it was intentionally meant to defraud people, much as ninja back in the day supposedly encouraged the rumors that they could transform into animals and turn invisible. If your enemy is afraid of you, you stand a better chance of not being attacked and therefore surviving.

But the implications of this are interesting. On one hand, I see no issue with trying to convince your enemies that you have special powers. It's the ancient equivalent of psyching them out, of getting inside their head. The issue now is, when people want to go to your school because you specifically teach these "powers," they are by definition not going to learn them because they don't exist. So do you a) let the student in on the scam, or b) let them think they're actually learning mystic powers? Because all that qi power is not going to stop a blade from cutting you anywhere other than at your demo on stage in front of laypeople who believe you have magic powers.

Again, I'm not saying physical conditioning isn't real. I'm saying physical conditioning is a result of physical adaptation (increased pain tolerance and Wolff's law) and will occur regardless of if you do special qigong exercises or not. And all the demo stuff that requires special stances, special techniques (such as being hit in just the right place with just the right part of the board, etc.), etc. has nothing to do with internal power or anything else other than physics and physical conditioning. And sometimes some slight of hand, like in the demos where they break bricks on the edges of steps.

YouKnowWho

03-30-2012, 06:43 PM

You can't use "internal" power to lift weights. You lift weights with muscular strength and proper body mechanics (eg. proper form). Those are "external" things.

There's no qi power involved, unless you want to say that "qi is responsible for all movement" in which case there is no distinction between internal and external in the first place so the entire discussion is moot.

Why qi power cannot be involved in

- vertical weight lifting?

How about

- vertical downwand pulling?
- horizontal pulling?

Can qi power only be used in

- horizontal pushing?

What's the limitation of the qi power (if it does exist)?

Shaolin

03-30-2012, 06:57 PM

yes and no;

yes, they knew what they were talking about in terms of a) their personal direct experiences with the various body-based phenomena experienced due to their training, and b) they were able to describe internal practice utilizing the metaphorical language of Taoist internal alchemy;

no, they didn't know what they were talking about, because they had no concept of biochemistry, cellular physiology, neuroanatomy / physiology (especially the autonomic nervous system, which mediates much of what occurs during qigong practice), or even basic muscle anatomy (to wit - the conflation of muscle, tendon and ligament as "sinews"); as such, the best they could do was to describe their experiences and employ a theoretical paradigm that revolved around macro pattern observation; that was the limit of their technology at the time, plain and simple;

the problem is that many people think that there is intrinsically no better way to talk about qigong / internal practice than in the dense and abstruse imagery of Taoist Alchemy, and that so-called "western science" will never be able to adequately describe what is happening;

so-called "ancient masters" did the best they could to describe physiological function with what they had at the time; but now we have better, more accurate means available; so in a very real sense, we know more than the ancient masters did;

Took the words right out of my mouth.

Dragonzbane76

03-30-2012, 07:00 PM

IronFist

03-30-2012, 09:18 PM

Why qi power cannot be involved in

- vertical weight lifting?

How about

- vertical downwand pulling?
- horizontal pulling?

Can qi power only be used in

- horizontal pushing?

What's the limitation of the qi power (if it does exist)?

To be used in any of those applications it would have to be doing something other than what can be accomplished externally.

How is vertical weight lifting internally any different from vertical weight lifting externally?

That is a question that an internal practitioner would have to answer, and the onus of proof is on them to prove they are doing something other than just external, or that which can be replicated strictly externally.

YouKnowWho

03-30-2012, 09:36 PM

How is vertical weight lifting internally any different from vertical weight lifting externally?

That sound like an excellent Phd desseration subject. For so many "internal" masters that exist in the world, I would assume someone should have done such research already. I'm sure all the weight lifters in the world would like to read such article.

IronFist

03-30-2012, 10:20 PM

That sound like an excellent Phd desseration subject. For so many "internal" masters that exist in the world, I would assume someone should have done such research already. I'm sure all the weight lifters in the world would like to read such article.

I would like to read it.

I don't know many internal masters that lift weights, though. That's bad for qi flow :p

It would be cool to see a skinny old qigong master deadlift 800 or 1,000 pounds, though. With his qi, of course, so that there would be proof that he wasn't relying on muscle strength and just blaming it on qi so he seems mystical.

lance

03-30-2012, 11:11 PM

I have asked this question before and I have not be able to get any answer from anybody yet.

What's the difference between using "internal" power to lift weight vs. using "external" power to lift weight? For some unknown reason, "internal" guys just don't want to talk about "lift" and I don't know why.

Does anybody have answer for this question?

YouKnowWho , okay I ' ll answer your questions and share with you my own knowledge with you . But it ' s really up to you to believe me . Hard chi kung is basically the type of chi kung that ' s design for breaking breaks over your own head without getting internal injuries . Or a group of people pushing a spear directly into your own throat as a way of bending it . So you need to learn the hard chi kung excercises and the conditioning method for those kinds of method .

Soft chi kung is the type chi kung excercise where you need to do the excercise in order to get the results . Like weight training , the difference is that soft chi kung as you do it everyday or whenever possible for you . You ' re letting the chi grow in you as you ' re doing the excercise . And as times goes by it should supplement your own physical strenght . If you only lifts weights to get strong , and not continue to do your soft chi kung excercise , then it ' ll depend on your own physical strenght potential . to really make yourself strong .

So YouKnowWho , maybe that ' s why the internal people did ' nt want to share with you , maybe they think that you ' re not patient enough .

For soft chi kung , as times goes by as you ' re practicing the excercises , your body should be getting stronger already , but test it out , by doing pushing and shoving type of excercise against a partner . The day you realize you have more power over your partner , it means that you ' re getting results already . Other than that you need to keep on doing the soft chi kung exercise . Or rather do tai chi . But that ' s the thing with internal power though , the development can take time . But when you noticed the results , you ' ll wan to keep on training at it .

Theres alot of different type of soft chi kung excercises around , so pick the one you like . The samething with hard chi kung .

IronFist

03-30-2012, 11:15 PM

Soft chi kung is the type chi kung excercise where you need to do the excercise in order to get the results . Like weight training , the difference is that soft chi kung as you do it everyday or whenever possible for you . You ' re letting the chi grow in you as you ' re doing the excercise . And as times goes by it should supplement your own physical strenght . If you only lifts weights to get strong , and not continue to do your soft chi kung excercise , then it ' ll depend on your own physical strenght potential . to really make yourself strong .

You need to quantify "chi" in this example.

How is the chi "growing" in someone who does the soft exercises versus not growing in someone who doesn't do the soft exercises?

The onus is on the internal practitioners to prove that they aren't just developing physical strength, learning to apply physics and proper body mechanics, or performing stage tricks, and that there actually is something else going on.

bawang

03-30-2012, 11:41 PM

I would like to read it.

I don't know many internal masters that lift weights, though. That's bad for qi flow :p

all real internal masters lift weights.

that new kung fu quest video showed a brief scene of traditional tai chi exercise-200 pound deadlift. they were reluctant to show it tho.

lance

03-31-2012, 12:36 AM

You need to quantify "chi" in this example.

How is the chi "growing" in someone who does the soft exercises versus not growing in someone who doesn't do the soft exercises?

The onus is on the internal practitioners to prove that they aren't just developing physical strength, learning to apply physics and proper body mechanics, or performing stage tricks, and that there actually is something else going on.

Ironfist , what do you mean by quantify ? Or do you mean Quality ? And what do you mean by onus ? Excuse me , ironfist , but I don ' t quite understand your english terminlogy . Where are you from ? I come from Hawaii , and if you can ' t spell the words correctly , then I really don ' t know what you mean .

Do you practice soft chi kung ? I practice soft chi kung too , when I spar with big people , I noticed that I can control them physically , I ' m only 5 foot 1 a small guy , and the guys that I physical contact with are 6 foot 2 . Your strenght improves only if you practice the excercise though , well ironfist to have to try it .
The person who don ' t practice any internal excerses at all . will have only his own physical potential to deal with . Chi works as you relax your own body , but still train in the internal excercises .

Okay , the way I see it is this , okay internal practitioners they condition their own bodies for whatever the type hard chi kung demo they ' ll be doing . By doing hard chi kung excercises . You know why , you know who Sifu Tu is ? I saw a close up internal demo of him , pounding nails hard into the piece of lumber with his right backfist . And pulling a car with wires with his iron crouch . It was in hawaii and I saw it up close .

In other words , conditioning the human body and continuing the hard chi kung
excercises is what makes it happen . When I talk about conditioning you know the dit da jow you train with that , then you can do it . To me it has got nothing to deal with stage tricks , physics and proper body mechanics . Because you try doing those internal demos at home on your own ? You can hurt yourself . Try and ask internal kung fu teachers like Sifu Wing Lam and other iron palm masters .
It ' s for real .

taai gihk yahn

03-31-2012, 04:22 AM

TGY... The only problem i have is the mystical conotation people attach. But ronin stated it best with cultural attachments. I have a grasp of internal generation but isn't every interpretation different?

well, the "mystical" connotation has always been attached to experiences for which people have no relatively objective explanation;

however, if you look at the way Taoists healers tried to explain the body's "Inner Landscape", it was in some cases actually pretty down-to-earth - they used metaphors from the world around them, and in certain instances they hit things pretty well-on (like the Kidneys represented as two young boys turning a water wheel - not bad!); indeed, we can look at that 100's of years later and ascribe more mystical connotation to it than they actual may have done originally!

the other thing to consider is that in the whole history of Chinese internal practice / medicine / science, I think it's reasonable to postulate that you had a wide range of opinions and perspectives, from mystics to "realists", just like you had in martial arts; what comes down to us are images, concepts, practices and terms that are to some extent devoid of context, so I think that we can't necessarily know for sure how it was looked at by different people at different times...

and sure, if u go around from one "pre-biochemistry" civilization to another, you will get a variety of different interpretations of the body that were each varyingly accurate, and described according to the conventions of the time and place;

taai gihk yahn

03-31-2012, 04:38 AM

I come from Hawaii , and if you can ' t spell the words correctly , then I really don ' t know what you mean .

And pulling a car with wires with his iron crouch .

Hawaii: the Irony State.

It was in hawaii and I saw it up close .
:eek:
I am in New York, and I think that's about as close as I'd like to get to any Hawaiian's iron crotch, sorry, I mean crouch...

Lokhopkuen

03-31-2012, 05:10 AM

Pulling a car with your crotch is external, isn't it? Unless of course you're doing that vaginal weight lifting jade egg thing,
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q69/lokhopkuen/4469af32.jpg
then that's internal like hell yea Im down to watch:D

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Q421inffFgo/Swn4apuN7CI/AAAAAAAABs8/Yg49LDhtB20/s320/strong-vagina.jpg
This is my mom, she is very trong

Scott R. Brown

03-31-2012, 06:29 AM

Shouldn't someone have mentioned to lance that YouKnowWho was being retorical in his question and knows more about the internal/external thingy than he will ever know?

DO I HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING AROUND HERE??????:mad::p

lance, YouKnowWho was starting an interesting conversation, not really asking about internal/external chi for his own edification!

Its not your fault for not knowing that, you are still fairly new around these here parts!;)

P.S. Watching someone perform a stunt does not make that they are doing REAL!! It makes it a STUNT!

David Jamieson

03-31-2012, 06:35 AM

Jade egg?

I see your jade egg and raise you rock titty!

http://i.minus.com/ib2MJs.gif

wenshu

03-31-2012, 06:46 AM

I would like to read it.

I don't know many internal masters that lift weights, though. That's bad for qi flow :p

It would be cool to see a skinny old qigong master deadlift 800 or 1,000 pounds, though. With his qi, of course, so that there would be proof that he wasn't relying on muscle strength and just blaming it on qi so he seems mystical.

I don't think you know any "internal masters". This whole idea of "qi" = "the force" makes for lazy minded internet forum post take downs but it doesn't really reflect the actual reality of legitimate Chinese martial arts.

How would being a rebellious 17th century Han make you know anything about internal force? And why can't one talk about it directly?

Sigh.
http://www.nardis.com/~twchan/henning.html

Scott R. Brown

03-31-2012, 07:20 AM

http://www.nardis.com/~twchan/henning.html

And.....

......that means?

bawang

03-31-2012, 08:53 AM

IronFist

03-31-2012, 09:28 AM

Ironfist , what do you mean by quantify ?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/quantify?s=t

And what do you mean by onus ?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/onus?s=t

It means if someone is claiming to have qi power, the burden of proof is on that person to prove that what they are doing is actually using qi as opposed to not using qi.

I can punch a board and break it and then tell everyone I did it using mystical qi power shooting through my fist, but unless I can prove that I used qi rather than just physical strength, no one has any reason to believe me that I used internal power.

Also, if the demo can be replicated by people without internal training, then Occam's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) would have us believe that neither person is using internal qi power.

This is why a true qi power demo must be done in a way that cannot be replicated using physics, physical conditioning, proper body mechanics, sleight of hand, or parlor tricks. Take a sledge hammer to the stomach while blindfolded and not knowing when the strike is coming and not flexing your muscles in preparation for impact. Bonus points if you're not hiding behind a thick layer of adipose tissue, too.

In other words, if you make a claim, you provide the proof.

IronFist

03-31-2012, 09:30 AM

all real internal masters lift weights.

that new kung fu quest video showed a brief scene of traditional tai chi exercise-200 pound deadlift. they were reluctant to show it tho.

Holy sh*t, 200 pounds? Someone call the Guinness book of world records.

But seriously, 200 is probably more than most tai chi anti-weight granola hippies can lift, so good on those guys.

Dale Dugas

03-31-2012, 09:39 AM

There is nothing wrong with being strong as my teacher says.

Qi in Chinese medicine is married to blood and cannot move without the other.

So when you blood is stagnant your qi is static as well and this causes various illnesses, this also can have the opposite effect of having too much movement and that can alter ones health as well.

I either tonify qi and blood and move it. Or I can reduce the movement and bring someone back to homeostasis.

If you train your body correctly without hurting it, and using steroids, one can have greater strength that is whole body strength.

What most bodybuilders do by creating huge arms while having pipe cleaner legs is unbalanced.

Holding stances, Zhang Zhuang standing, training with heavy weapons, combat applications will build strength in your muscles.

People need to understand that you have to train the structure/physicality as well as your Yi(intention). You need external and internal training.

The Mind Commands
The Body Responds
The Qi Follows.

Qi is that last thing in the equation.

I train my mind to do what I want when I want. That is how I train my qi gong.

bawang

03-31-2012, 09:40 AM

Holy sh*t, 200 pounds? Someone call the Guinness book of world records.

But seriously, 200 is probably more than most tai chi anti-weight granola hippies can lift, so good on those guys.

on the show it was a 17 year old kid. yang style tai chi founder lifted 300 pounds. the imperial officer minimum standard was around 250.

Scott R. Brown

03-31-2012, 09:41 AM

there is no such thing as internal. it is never mentioned in traditional kung fu. it is made up concept to milk people. because white people will belive anything.

traditional tai chi people lift weights.

"Internal" as a Taoist concept goes back to about the mid 300's B.C. in the written form, preceding the Tao Te Ching and much much further as a verbally transmitted concept.

It meant pretty close to what it still means to today.

Please reference the Nei Yeh.

bawang

03-31-2012, 09:46 AM

ive also read taoist text that says their qigong makes your gonas shrink into your body and you become pregnant with a spirit child.

Scott R. Brown

03-31-2012, 09:47 AM

ive also read taoist text that says their qigong makes your gonas shrink into your body and you become pregnant with a spirit child.

Now-a-days we call it feces!:p

IronFist

03-31-2012, 09:51 AM

What most bodybuilders do by creating huge arms while having pipe cleaner legs is unbalanced.

The only people I've seen do that are frat guys in the college gym. And usually it's just chest and biceps (beach muscles) and even the back and triceps are ignored. Stereotypes, of course.

But hey if people wanna have unbalanced bodies that's their choice.

IronFist

03-31-2012, 09:53 AM

on the show it was a 17 year old kid. yang style tai chi founder lifted 300 pounds. the imperial officer minimum standard was around 250.

That's not really much in the world of deadlifting BUT it's better than nothing, and I am assuming these people are naturally skinny and small rather than the bigger guys who walk into the gym and can deadlift 250 or so on their first day. So a 250-300 deadlift in that situation is pretty decent.

IronFist

03-31-2012, 09:54 AM

by internal i meant the "i dont need to lift weights, qigong gives me special powers" mindset

You don't need to spar, either. Qigong gives you no touch knock out! :eek:

bawang

03-31-2012, 09:57 AM

That's not really much in the world of deadlifting BUT it's better than nothing, and I am assuming these people are naturally skinny and small rather than the bigger guys who walk into the gym and can deadlift 250 or so on their first day. So a 250-300 deadlift in that situation is pretty decent.

you have to remember there was no supplements, also it was not a bar, but a stone drum you have to bear hug like an atlas ball. i think the imperial record was 400 pounds.

wenshu

03-31-2012, 09:57 AM

And.....

......that means?

You want me to read it out loud for you?

The first extant mention of "internal" in opposition to "external" in the context of martial arts was Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan (1669), composed by Huang Zongxi (1610-1695 A.D.) and some scholars reason that based on the historical and cultural context that it was actually just a code word for seditious Ming loyalists.

IronFist

03-31-2012, 10:17 AM

you have to remember there was no supplements, also it was not a bar, but a stone drum you have to bear hug like an atlas ball. i think the imperial record was 400 pounds.

The shape of a stone drum makes it a lot harder I would imagine.

bawang

03-31-2012, 10:42 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae8RsOx4gzI&feature=relmfu

at 10:17.

its not that heavy and done with sh1t form, but its the thought that counts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVyRJ7IgrSY

at 30 seconds done with proper form

IronFist

03-31-2012, 10:59 AM

YouKnowWho

03-31-2012, 12:39 PM

This whole idea of "qi" = "the force" makes for lazy minded internet forum post take downs but it doesn't really reflect the actual reality of legitimate Chinese martial arts.

This thread is not for the general Qi discussion but concentrate in "combat usage" and "combat usage" only.

How to use IP (internal power) in

- punching,
- kicking,
- grappling,
- submission,
- upward lifting,
- downward pulling, and
- horizontal pulling?

YouKnowWho

03-31-2012, 12:54 PM

if you make a claim, you provide the proof.

This is the main point of the whole discussion. If someone claims something, he has to prove it. If he can't prove it then he should not make such claim.

If someone asks me a question, I'll try to describe in words, post pictures, or post video to help that person to understand what I'm trying to say. Right or wrong, I'll stand behind my words, pictures, and clips. I'll never say, "This is secret and I don't want to talk about in public. I can only show you if oneday we meet face to face." Of course the only way to experience IP is to go and try fighting an "internal" master." If that's not possible then we can only exhange different opinions on internet.

The kind of attitude such as:

- I have a secret.
- I'm the only person who know this secret.
- I'm not going to tell you my secret.
- You just have to believe me even if I can't prove it to you online.
- But I can prove to you face to face.

just bother me big time.

IronFist

03-31-2012, 02:51 PM

The kind of attitude such as:

- I have a secret.
- I'm the only person who know this secret.
- I'm not going to tell you my secret.
- You just have to believe me even if I can't prove it to you online.
- But I can prove to you face to face.

just bother me big time.

You, sir, sound scam-proof :D

If you pay me $2,999 I will send you my DVD course that teaches you how to develop internal power and defeat attackers without touching them. But it requires 10 years of daily practice to achieve. Oh and I can't give a demo of the technique because it's too deadly even to demonstrate. One time I was training and I accidentally knocked down my neighbors house with a qi blast. But trust me, it's real. And you can learn to do it, too.

taai gihk yahn

03-31-2012, 03:20 PM

This is the main point of the whole discussion. If someone claims something, he has to prove it. If he can't prove it then he should not make such claim.

If someone asks me a question, I'll try to describe in words, post pictures, or post video to help that person to understand what I'm trying to say. Right or wrong, I'll stand behind my words, pictures, and clips. I'll never say, "This is secret and I don't want to talk about in public. I can only show you if oneday we meet face to face." Of course the only way to experience IP is to go and try fighting an "internal" master." If that's not possible then we can only exhange different opinions on internet.

The kind of attitude such as:

- I have a secret.
- I'm the only person who know this secret.
- I'm not going to tell you my secret.
- You just have to believe me even if I can't prove it to you online.
- But I can prove to you face to face.

just bother me big time.

but this basically is the modus operandi of religion: I make a claim regarding something that I can't show you, that you can't see, touch, experience directly, etc., I can offer you no proof of its existence, but you just have to take my word for it; it gets even more bizarro when the very fact that "x" can't be experienced is used as proof of its existence, insofar as it first requires one to put complete faith into it - and if it stil doesn't manifest, it's bec u rn't trying hard enuf;

internal is the same way: I can't show it to you when u resist me, bec then u r going to end up getting hurt, and I won't take responsibility for that - so u hav to b completely compliant, that's the only way i can demo my internal power; and u just hav to hav faith that it wud work for real if u need it; and if u don't get it, it's ur fault for not training properly, not bec the whole construct itself is a fabrication

IronFist

03-31-2012, 03:28 PM

but this basically is the modus operandi of religion: I make a claim regarding something that I can't show you, that you can't see, touch, experience directly, etc., I can offer you no proof of its existence, but you just have to take my word for it; it gets even more bizarro when the very fact that "x" can't be experienced is used as proof of its existence, insofar as it first requires one to put complete faith into it - and if it stil doesn't manifest, it's bec u rn't trying hard enuf;

internal is the same way: I can't show it to you when u resist me, bec then u r going to end up getting hurt, and I won't take responsibility for that - so u hav to b completely compliant, that's the only way i can demo my internal power; and u just hav to hav faith that it wud work for real if u need it; and if u don't get it, it's ur fault for not training properly, not bec the whole construct itself is a fabrication

It's different from religion.

In religion, we presumably don't find out until we die.

With qigong, you can isolate variables and prove if you're using qi or if you're using physical development, physics, proper body mechanics, sleight of hand, or stage tricks.

Now of course, no one can tell you you don't feel qi inside you, but that's not what this thread is about.

mickey

03-31-2012, 03:40 PM

taai gihk yahn

03-31-2012, 07:45 PM

Question,

What if I shared that as a result of some alchemical (ahem! chi) practices I slipped into another world. And I detail the effects of being there. Yet, I do not tell what I was actually doing to get there because I do not have any control over it. Would my sharing be respected?

mickey

it would be respected insofar as it was your personal experience, and as such, highly subjective in nature; no one can say, "no, you didn't experience what you experienced"; if you believe you slipped into another world, ok, so that's what you believe;

OTOH, if you wanted to make any sort of relatively objective, generalized statements, and expecting anyone to believe it without providing some sort of evidence, that would be another matter; and detailing the effects doesn't prove it, it just demonstrates you had a very vivid experience - which may have been real or hallucinatory;

Scott R. Brown

03-31-2012, 07:56 PM

You want me to read it out loud for you?

The first extant mention of "internal" in opposition to "external" in the context of martial arts was Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan (1669), composed by Huang Zongxi (1610-1695 A.D.) and some scholars reason that based on the historical and cultural context that it was actually just a code word for seditious Ming loyalists.

I would say the first known mention, however the principle was known, understood and applied for 2000 years prior to that and heavily implied as an applied principle in Sun Tzu, so it is doubtful it was not applied in the martial arts even though there are apparently no known written references. Even Chuang Tzu references the principle in his Butcher story. If a Butcher could understand and apply the principle certainly a martial artist could and would.

taai gihk yahn

03-31-2012, 08:02 PM

It's different from religion.

In religion, we presumably don't find out until we die.
my perspective is that what you "find out" after you die is whether or not your individual consciousness persists outside of the so-called physical body; that has nothing to do with religion per se, it either happens or it doesn't, intrinsically; as far as theism, if someone tells me there is a God of any sort, I will ask them to define this proposed entity, and delineate how it operates in the world that I can directly experience; barring their ability to do so, and if I fail to find any evidence of it on my own, then for me the issue is settled here - i have found out while still alive that what this person says cannot be substantiated by any of the faculties I possess in order to ascertain the relative truth or falsehood; and just because they claim that after death my consciousness will persist, when no evidence in my personal experience suggests this to be the case, then there is really no reason to have a "wait and see" perspective, and thus for me the matter is settled; I may be wrong, but I don't have any evidence to suggest that I am;

With qigong, you can isolate variables and prove if you're using qi or if you're using physical development, physics, proper body mechanics, sleight of hand, or stage tricks.
Now of course, no one can tell you you don't feel qi inside you, but that's not what this thread is about.
well, again, AFAIK, you can't do anything without using "qi" - "qi" is not some thing that you turn on and off, to work at certain times and not others - "qi" is an intrinsic factor of life; any functional activity requires "qi"; of course, the quality of that "qi" can differ according to ur structure, alignment, biomechanics, strength level, etc.; when u do so-called "internal", u r focusing on specific aspects of "qi" as opposed to when u strength train; all power generation uses "qi" - so-called "internal" just uses it differently;

IronFist

03-31-2012, 10:19 PM

well, again, AFAIK, you can't do anything without using "qi" - "qi" is not some thing that you turn on and off, to work at certain times and not others - "qi" is an intrinsic factor of life; any functional activity requires "qi"; of course, the quality of that "qi" can differ according to ur structure, alignment, biomechanics, strength level, etc.; when u do so-called "internal", u r focusing on specific aspects of "qi" as opposed to when u strength train; all power generation uses "qi" - so-called "internal" just uses it differently;

"Qigong masters" claim to be able to do things with their qi, such as break the bottom brick, or withstand blows to the stomach with a sledgehammer.

The onus of proof is on them to prove that those events are occurring because of a level of qi manipulation that the untrained population is not capable of.

I have no problem with people claiming qi is in all life, or the food we eat, or anything else.

I have no problem with people claiming they can feel the qi moving through their body when they do qigong.

But to claim to have special powers because of qi, that is something that needs to be proven.

If David Copperfield claims to actually make a plane disappear, he needs to do so in a way that removes all doubt, not only from specific angles on TV, etc. Of course, David Copperfield is a stage magician and doesn't claim to actually make the plane disappear.

If someone learns the physics behind breaking the bottom brick, that's awesome. To claim it is because of qi is nonsense without offering proof.

If someone trains to withstand the blow from a sledgehammer, that is a most impressive feat! To claim it is because of qi requires proof.

Both of those feats can be done with physics, physical conditioning, and proper body mechanics.

If someone claims to be able to move or knock people out using qi and without touching them, that is going to require proof. And so far, every attempt has failed.

mickey

03-31-2012, 11:12 PM

Okay TGY,

What if it happened more than once?

mickey

taai gihk yahn

04-01-2012, 03:23 AM

Okay TGY,

What if it happened more than once?

mickey

then u had the same subjective experience more than once; big deal;

taai gihk yahn

04-01-2012, 03:33 AM

"Qigong masters" claim to be able to do things with their qi, such as break the bottom brick, or withstand blows to the stomach with a sledgehammer.

The onus of proof is on them to prove that those events are occurring because of a level of qi manipulation that the untrained population is not capable of.

I have no problem with people claiming qi is in all life, or the food we eat, or anything else.

I have no problem with people claiming they can feel the qi moving through their body when they do qigong.

But to claim to have special powers because of qi, that is something that needs to be proven.

If David Copperfield claims to actually make a plane disappear, he needs to do so in a way that removes all doubt, not only from specific angles on TV, etc. Of course, David Copperfield is a stage magician and doesn't claim to actually make the plane disappear.

If someone learns the physics behind breaking the bottom brick, that's awesome. To claim it is because of qi is nonsense without offering proof.

If someone trains to withstand the blow from a sledgehammer, that is a most impressive feat! To claim it is because of qi requires proof.

Both of those feats can be done with physics, physical conditioning, and proper body mechanics.

If someone claims to be able to move or knock people out using qi and without touching them, that is going to require proof. And so far, every attempt has failed.

agreed; it's the "special powers" bit that is, at best, deluded, and at worst, deliberately misleading;

altho, there is a continuum: for example, u cud hav a guy who never trained qigong in his life, does his parlor tricks, and tells u it's bec of his secret qi training; clearly someone who is trying to hoodwink others;
then u can hav the guy who trains qigong, and within that training also conitions himself, trains various skills, and is able to perform certain feats that without all of that training, would not be able to do - if he claims he is using "qi" in a classical context, that's ok, albeit he may hav a misguided idea of what particular training is leading to his abilities; so if he can break the bottom brick, he had to train his focus, intent, strength, whtever - if he thinks he is projecting his "qi" as a form of intention / focus, fine - if he thinks he's shooting it out of his hands through a stack of bricks, that ain't happening - but he still did the training - of course, if he had only done the visualizing part and not the physical practice, well, he may not be so successful

it's a continuum in terms of belief system - r u deluding ur self and / or others?

so proof can be relative - what r we trying to prove? if u claim u can shoot ur qi across the room, can I prove u didn't? well, it depends what u claim ur qi can do - if u claim ur qi can heal me from across the room, and I am predisposed to believe that, it can happen (placebo effect); if u claim it can move a brick, then I get to set the brick up...

if u claim that u can project my qi onto someone else from 6" away, and when u try it, they feel heat, and sort of a magnetic-like pressure, ok - sure, that's "qi", but there is also a physiological rationale behind it that more accurately describes what is happening;

so u can use "qi" as a metaphor for normal processes - u don't NEED to do that, but u can - but because u have this "soft" definition, u an co-opt the term to use it for all sort of other things, charlatanism to wild self-delusion;

Lokhopkuen

04-01-2012, 06:07 AM

Jade egg?

I see your jade egg and raise you rock titty!

http://i.minus.com/ib2MJs.gif

You totally win:p

wenshu

04-01-2012, 07:33 AM

I would say the first known mention, however the principle was known, understood and applied for 2000 years prior to that and heavily implied as an applied principle in Sun Tzu, so it is doubtful it was not applied in the martial arts even though there are apparently no known written references. Even Chuang Tzu references the principle in his Butcher story. If a Butcher could understand and apply the principle certainly a martial artist could and would.

That's a good point. Obviously in Taoist practice and Chinese culture in general the concepts and methods of internal practice are severely ancient.

The Epitaph of Wang Zhang Neng points to a very specific reference of a delineation between two schools of martial arts one purely internal and one external. Speculation about such a distinction that predates the Ming Qing transition period is certainly plausible however the general historical scholarly consensus is that it is around this time that the integration of martial practice and native daoist internal practices took place. Now it is important to distinguish between the integration of martial practices with Daoist cosmology and internal methods versus the concept of a purely internal martial art, the latter of which I don't buy in the slightest.

I've never argued that internal doesn't exist per se; I practice meditation and qi gong nearly every day. I merely don't subscribed to the idea that there is any such thing as a purely internal martial art and a purely external one. This idea was created closer to the Republican period and is in my own cynical definition purely a way of marketing martial arts to people who have an aversion to DOMS, blood and sweat.

Personally I think one way of describing an admittedly superficial aspect of internal practice in western reductionist terms is the mediation of autonomic tone by means of conscious respiratory proprioception and biofeedback. One of the immediately observed benefits of internal practice is that it allows for the conscious stimulation of the bodies natural recovery response (parasympathetic tone) thereby allowing you to train harder for longer without burning out.

Unfortunately the above is not nearly profound enough for most of your day to day martial art cult brainwashing necessities; if you want to get people to part with their cash you have to tell them that qi = The Force, but that is an argument for people who hang out on kung fu forums but don't actually practice kung fu.

wenshu

04-01-2012, 07:43 AM

That's not really much in the world of deadlifting BUT it's better than nothing, and I am assuming these people are naturally skinny and small rather than the bigger guys who walk into the gym and can deadlift 250 or so on their first day. So a 250-300 deadlift in that situation is pretty decent.

You also have to take into account that they weren't competitive powerlifters focused on the singular goal of a max rep PR.

Why would I spend all of my limited nutrition and recovery resources on maxing a single lift when I also have to learn how to actually cut people?

bawang

04-01-2012, 07:51 AM

the important thing is the video showed traditional weight lifting done by tai chi people.

IronFist

04-01-2012, 10:19 AM

so proof can be relative - what r we trying to prove? if u claim u can shoot ur qi across the room, can I prove u didn't? well, it depends what u claim ur qi can do - if u claim ur qi can heal me from across the room, and I am predisposed to believe that, it can happen (placebo effect); if u claim it can move a brick, then I get to set the brick up...

if u claim that u can project my qi onto someone else from 6" away, and when u try it, they feel heat, and sort of a magnetic-like pressure, ok - sure, that's "qi", but there is also a physiological rationale behind it that more accurately describes what is happening;

so u can use "qi" as a metaphor for normal processes - u don't NEED to do that, but u can - but because u have this "soft" definition, u an co-opt the term to use it for all sort of other things, charlatanism to wild self-delusion;

People "feeling" heat doesn't prove anything.

People felt heat from that one guy and it was later revealed he had a hot pad in his pocket.

I'm sure James Randi could sort it all out with blind studies and variables. And a $1,000,000 prize if anyone is successful.

Not to mention, if someone could definitively demonstrate qi, they would quickly have the most popular martial arts school in the world. Wouldn't you go to a school that could teach you how to knock people out without touching them? I would. I would pack up and move to be close enough to that school to train there.

I'm not counting on that happening, however.

edit - I mean a school that can teach you how to knock out resisting opponents without touching them. I don't just mean techniques that only work on your own students, which is all we've seen so far.

IronFist

04-01-2012, 10:20 AM

You also have to take into account that they weren't competitive powerlifters focused on the singular goal of a max rep PR.

Why would I spend all of my limited nutrition and recovery resources on maxing a single lift when I also have to learn how to actually cut people?

Agreed.

the important thing is the video showed traditional weight lifting done by tai chi people.

Also agreed.

Scott R. Brown

04-01-2012, 10:48 AM

David Jamieson

04-02-2012, 05:40 AM

taai gihk yahn

04-02-2012, 11:03 AM

People "feeling" heat doesn't prove anything.

People felt heat from that one guy and it was later revealed he had a hot pad in his pocket.

I'm sure James Randi could sort it all out with blind studies and variables. And a $1,000,000 prize if anyone is successful.

Not to mention, if someone could definitively demonstrate qi, they would quickly have the most popular martial arts school in the world. Wouldn't you go to a school that could teach you how to knock people out without touching them? I would. I would pack up and move to be close enough to that school to train there.

I'm not counting on that happening, however.

edit - I mean a school that can teach you how to knock out resisting opponents without touching them. I don't just mean techniques that only work on your own students, which is all we've seen so far.

I think u r missing my point; from a "classical" medicine perspective, "qi" is discussed in very reasonable terms: it is basically a word / concept meant to encompass physiological function in an integrated paradigm used for assessment / treatment; phenomena such as body heat are an aspect of that function;

so if I can consciously increase local blood circulation in my hands (such as is done in biofeedback training) and someone feels the increase in heat as a result, this is "qi" manipulation; the explanation for this from a contemporary paradigm is well described and valid; no trickery, but nothing all that special in the least

if you are my student I make you dance around the room using my "qi" force, this is also "real", in the sense that u and I are engaged in a psychological process called entrainment - your and my belief systems coincide such that I want to make you dance around the room, and you want to be made to do it - the psychological "qi" factor, if you will, if rather strong - and requires mutual participation; again, it's well described, nothing mystical - albeit it is a shared delusion; unfortunately, this sort of thing is hard to counter, beause you supposedly have independent corroboration; of course, get someone who isn't your student, and the whole construct falls apart; this also can be applied to no-touch knockouts: we see Benny Hinn causing people to have the same effect, no MA involved - again, it's psycho-somatic; which is very real and very strong, but requires a highly specific set of circumstances centering on mutual cooperation; and again, this could be described as an aspect of "qi", but the part everyone leaves out is the self-fufiling belief aspect, not some imaginary force shooting across the room';

of course, this becomes evident when u try to do it w innanimate objects - it just doesn't work; and this is where Randi comes in, consistently debunking people who try to pass this one off; while a rock, for example, does have "qi", it's not "qi" of the sort that can be interracted with in the same way u can interract with another person's; so again my point is that it is a misundertanding of the intention behind the term to even think it relates to the sort of thing u r polemicizing about; "qi" is a functional metaphor - it relates to the function of the universe on every level; it is a means of getting a handle on the laws of nature, not as a means of surmounting them; when u look at it this way, it is no longer necessary to even engage in the the discussion of qi existing or not, or needing to prove it or not - that was never the point of it as a descriptor; unfortunately, this is a less flamboyant way of contextualizing it, and will not attract too many people interested in f@rting rainbows in order to defy gravity...

again, I agree w u - I am just trying to get more to the heart of the matter, insofar as it's because people are able to miuse the term, that u even get around to the second part about proof / non-proof; if someone tells me they can use their "qi" to move a brick, they are misusing the term; meaning that regardless of whether they move the brick or not, it has nothing no bearing on "qi" per se - because you can't prove / disprove a metaphor! what u can prove or disprove is what they did to get the brick to move versus what they claimed they did...

taai gihk yahn

04-02-2012, 11:14 AM

The idea of Qi has been convoluted. There is no doubt.

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The idea of air and breathing it and that entire process is beyond people's understanding and yet we all do it every second of every day.

we breath in, we breath out. Anybody fully understand what happens beyond that? Why are you alive instead of dead? Why can you perceive instead of being trapped in infinite void of senselessness?

Can you feel your life force? Can you see what propels your body through space and time? What is the fuel? How is it processed and transformed into the refined fuel that runs the machinations of the body and mind.

what is an idea? where does it come from? How does an epiphany manifest.

Some people can answer these questions readily and will still leave the listener dumbfounded.

When it comes to "qi" there are many people who do not have a complete grasp of the concept on both sides. Hence charlatans and belligerents towards the concept.

The Elan vidal, The ruach, the life force, the bio-energy that is life itself is Qi. Do you deny you're alive?

yeah, but also, it's not quite so abstract: "qi" as a functional descriptor is used to assess qualitative states - if you look at TCM, "qi" is used to describe things like immunity, cardiovascular function, digestion, etc., in a way that in the absence of biochemical knowledge / testing and internal imaging, you can get a handle to varying extent of what's going on w someone; there is also the Taoist alchemical use of it, which while related is a bit different to some degree; so it's not just talking about "life force" in a vague and non-utilitarian manner - u can assess someone's "qi" and to varying degrees accurately diagnose their health state - hardly an abstraction; you don't need to address overarching existential questions to make use of the functional metaphor that "qi" provides - u can use it to assess without asking the reason for life being such as it is, or being at all!

if u look at a person who is alive and say they have 'qi", and someone who is dead and say they don't, then u hav set up a nomenclature that describes the conditions for a self-evident set of relative opposites; so u have in a way a priori created the condition for "qi" to exist, by saying that being alive = having "qi" and being dead = not; ok, fine - u have set the parameters for the descriptor; so then, u look at the process of an alive person, and start describing the various manifestations of the aliveness - and so u come up w lots of different types of "qi"; and when someone can cause the circulation in their hand to increase voluntarily, it's fine to say that they are directing "qi", because it is a functional process - and so far, we have nothing breaking the rules; but when we get to outlandish claims, claims that regardless of whether we accept the metaphor of qi or not, would make eyebrows raise, then we are off-label; I mean, regardless of what country / culture you go to, people always make fantastical claims about things like telekinesis - it's not unique to China - and in every instance, they come up w different reasons - qi, power of god, whatever; and everytime they are put to the test under strict conditions, guess what - they can't do it, bec the laws of nature are as such everywhere on the planet;

so again, it comes down to expectations and proper usage of a term;

Scott R. Brown

04-02-2012, 11:16 AM

People just want to believe in magic, because it purports to give power to the powerless!

taai gihk yahn

04-02-2012, 11:22 AM

Scott R. Brown

04-02-2012, 11:29 AM

People just want to believe in magic, because it purports to give power to the powerless!

I think it's just a by-product of our ability to reason abstractly - almost like a cognitive steam valve to counter-act our ability to project survival-probability scenarios into the future...

The way I said it makes it easier to understand!:p

And I am speaking strictly about the Qi Blast people here.

It is not a huge leap, logically speaking, to observe the difference between homeostasis and lack thereof, then by extension hypothesize an addition or absence of some indefinable substance/force that caused or influenced the imbalance to occur.

David Jamieson

04-02-2012, 04:02 PM

taai gihk yahn

04-02-2012, 05:11 PM

Don't get me wrong. I was leaning more towards how it is perceived as opposed to what it is. I don't have huge in depth understanding of Qi, but I do understand it has multiple ways of manifesting and transforming. To try to nail it to "one" thing is folly.

Like Scott says, people want to believe in magic, and when there is none, they turn away. If the actuality is too difficult to comprehend readily, people turn away.

Not all people, but most.

There is an attitude of "If I can't get it in one go it's not worth getting" that is entirely too pervasive throughout a great portion of civilization. Everywhere.

If we could all access, the world would be totally...well, not this world anyway.

sure, I got u; I guess what my point is thatu hav two extremes: one where "qi" is this concrete, distinct force that people say can be quantified, measured, and shot from ur fingers like the Emperor in ROTJ; OTOH, people talk about it as if it's some abstruse, unknowable thing that only exists in the rainbows f@rted out by unicorns;

my answer is simple - go look at the medicine and to some extent the qigong (the good stuff, at least): these are the guys using the concept day in, day out - they have direct experience looking at functional interelationships in the body and the environment around it;they will show u many concrete examples of how qi manifests in the body, and they will also talk about how to use these signs / symptoms to draws conclusions about the system as a whole; looking at classical qigong practice, and the phenomena they describe as relates to things like micro/macro cosmic orbit, IMPE, having done these things, I agree w the subjective descriptions, and I also can rationalize it according to contemporary physiology - so likewise all the breath work: u can certainly hav some uncommon effects, but nothing outside the range of human physiological capacity;

as soon as anything qi related starts to defy well-informed logic and reason, it's no longer about 'qi", but rather about fantasy and delusion

wenshu

04-03-2012, 02:13 PM

rainbows f@rted out by unicorns;

http://www.instructables.com/image/F5K3PETGX6OVUDO/Unicorn-Poop.jpg= qi

taai gihk yahn

04-03-2012, 02:56 PM

http://www.instructables.com/image/F5K3PETGX6OVUDO/Unicorn-Poop.jpg= qi

pretty much...

Lucas

04-03-2012, 02:58 PM

http://www.instructables.com/image/F5K3PETGX6OVUDO/Unicorn-Poop.jpg= qi

im pretty sure i would eat that

taai gihk yahn

04-03-2012, 03:05 PM

im pretty sure i would eat that

I'm pretty sure you MADE that ;) ...

taai gihk yahn

04-03-2012, 03:06 PM

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41604_349593425695_7964574_n.jpg

'nuff said...

Lucas

04-03-2012, 03:11 PM

I'm pretty sure you MADE that ;) ...

http://boards.420chan.org/f/src/1284695015067.jpg

wenshu

04-03-2012, 03:26 PM

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9awzkjgIz1qcvcnbo1_500.gif

wenshu

04-03-2012, 03:33 PM

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs6/2578012_o.gif

David Jamieson

04-03-2012, 05:09 PM

Well...this thread got real interesting.... almost like the Japanese **** scrolls...but unicorns.

YouKnowWho

04-03-2012, 05:46 PM

This was how this thread started in the 1st place. I'm glad that people in this forum don't have the attitude such as, "I'm the only person has it. You guy's stuff are all fake."

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16100

IronFist

04-03-2012, 08:45 PM

This was how this thread started in the 1st place. I'm glad that people in this forum don't have the attitude such as, "I'm the only person has it. You guys's stuff are all fake."

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16100

Do the people there think they can shoot qi blasts?

YouKnowWho

04-03-2012, 09:10 PM

Do the people there think they can shoot qi blasts?

No! They were talking about how to use "internal" in combat. But again, nobody are willing to put up any clip to prove it. Worse than that, people don't even want to share information about "how to develop internal power". It's pretty much like I know the secret but I won't tell.

Neeros

04-04-2012, 12:56 AM

No! They were talking about how to use "internal" in combat. But again, nobody are willing to put up any clip to prove it. Worse than that, people don't even want to share information about "how to develop internal power". It's pretty much like I know the secret but I won't tell.

How to develop Internal force: Practice Zhan Zhuang like Golden Bridge, or other Chi kung focused on building rather than cleansing relaxed and in a Zen state of mind. The methods are incredibly simple but not easy.

I've developed a little internal force so far, enough to know that there is something to it anyway, and no one in my school claims to be able to do a no touch knockout or anything of the sort.

A few things that I have accomplished are things that most beginning students accomplish after a reasonable time of twice daily training:

Being able to train intensely for over an hour without feeling tired or fatigued, in fact it is the opposite, I feel more energized and mentally refreshed after my training.

I find myself becoming physically(and mentally) stronger every week even though I don't weight-train. My body is becoming resistant to impact, accidentally smacking my limbs into things doesn't hurt anymore. etc etc. Lots of little things really.

The benefits spread to all aspects of my life, I train for combat efficiency mainly right now but if the internal force I build isn't put to use to tackle day to day challenges, what good is it?

If you are really interested just buy one of Sigung Wong Kiew Kit's kung fu books on amazon. He openly shares many "secrets."

IronFist

04-04-2012, 08:40 AM

If you are really interested just buy one of Sigung Wong Kiew Kit's kung fu books on amazon. He openly shares many "secrets."

That name sounds familiar. Was there some controversy surrounding him or am I thinking of someone else? Was he the guy who claimed to have students who could move clouds and didn't get wet when it rained?

IronFist

04-04-2012, 09:51 AM

Scott R. Brown

04-04-2012, 10:19 AM

How to develop Internal force: Practice Zhan Zhuang like Golden Bridge, or other Chi kung focused on building rather than cleansing relaxed and in a Zen state of mind. The methods are incredibly simple but not easy.

I've developed a little internal force so far, enough to know that there is something to it anyway, and no one in my school claims to be able to do a no touch knockout or anything of the sort.

A few things that I have accomplished are things that most beginning students accomplish after a reasonable time of twice daily training:

Being able to train intensely for over an hour without feeling tired or fatigued, in fact it is the opposite, I feel more energized and mentally refreshed after my training.

I find myself becoming physically(and mentally) stronger every week even though I don't weight-train. My body is becoming resistant to impact, accidentally smacking my limbs into things doesn't hurt anymore. etc etc. Lots of little things really.

The benefits spread to all aspects of my life, I train for combat efficiency mainly right now but if the internal force I build isn't put to use to tackle day to day challenges, what good is it?

If you are really interested just buy one of Sigung Wong Kiew Kit's kung fu books on amazon. He openly shares many "secrets."

YouKnowWho's questions are rhetorical, he knows more about the subject than you do.

He is making conversation and exploring the thoughts of others, not asking because he doesn't understand the subject!

Neeros

04-04-2012, 01:19 PM

That name sounds familiar. Was there some controversy surrounding him or am I thinking of someone else? Was he the guy who claimed to have students who could move clouds and didn't get wet when it rained?

Oh tons of controversy, which is to be expected when you openly share things that others might not believe. That is one of the reasons I sought out Shaolin Wahnam to begin with, to see if some of their claims were real. I wasn't disappointed. :)

As for clouds being manipulated, and such, in my opinion that is something anyone could do with consistent and correct training in any system of western or eastern magick like psionics, wicca, hermetics, kabbalah, yoga, qigong etc. But that isn't really a subject for a forum not interested in stuff like that. I haven't heard of any beginning students being able to do stuff like that though.

Cool. Are they also too deadly for the ring?

Nope! In fact my eventual goal is MMA, and there are many others in our school who are in training for competitions. It is a 2012 goal for our school that is being met fiercely. There have been some that have entered an won matches already though well before Sigung set this specific goal.

EDIT: Sorry, I thought you were replying to my post. :P

YouKnowWho's questions are rhetorical, he knows more about the subject than you do.

He is making conversation and exploring the thoughts of others, not asking because he doesn't understand the subject!

*Shrugs* I wasn't just replying to him, but to anyone who is interested.

David Jamieson

04-04-2012, 01:45 PM

No! They were talking about how to use "internal" in combat. But again, nobody are willing to put up any clip to prove it. Worse than that, people don't even want to share information about "how to develop internal power". It's pretty much like I know the secret but I won't tell.

To be fair, "internal" power can't really be shown in a clipshow.

You know as well as I do that the greater portion of the IMA people out there don't fight, haven't fought and won't fight if given the opportunity. Mostly, they enjoy solo practice, enjoy the sense of physical ability derived from it and attach a lot of silly beliefs to it because the tree never gets shaken so it's easy to continue to hang things on it so to speak.

The development of internal power is through work. Physical work. Relaxed fluidity is something beginners in anything do not have. "External" becomes "Internal" as relaxed and fluid power is brought forth through practice.

It won't come from standing like a tree or humming or tensing up or doing any singular thing. It is a gradual process that takes time. Usable and applicable forces used tactically can be developed along the way to that relaxed fluid motion we all practice towards.

Qi gong and Nei gong support that development alongside all the heavy labour you have to do to become strong, conditioned and able to actually fight.

If you start with a westernized idea of what is tai chi? You aren't going to get anywhere as a fighter for a real long time if at all.

IronFist

04-04-2012, 02:43 PM

As for clouds being manipulated, and such, in my opinion that is something anyone could do with consistent and correct training in any system of western or eastern magick like psionics, wicca, hermetics, kabbalah, yoga, qigong etc. But that isn't really a subject for a forum not interested in stuff like that. I haven't heard of any beginning students being able to do stuff like that though.

Well if any of those people want to make $1,000,000 for demonstrating their ability, send them over to http://www.randi.org/

bawang

04-04-2012, 02:45 PM

i dont care about qigong controlling the weather. i wanna control the wimmins.

Scott R. Brown

04-04-2012, 02:56 PM

*Shrugs* I wasn't just replying to him, but to anyone who is interested.

Which is almost no one here.

Most of us here have been around the MA for 20-40 years. It was thoughtful of you to share your experiences, but they are not new to most of us here as individuals and not really new information for the forum either.

I understand you are still fairly new to the forum so there is no way for you to know that. I am not being critical, just informative.;)

Scott R. Brown

04-04-2012, 02:57 PM

i dont care about qigong controlling the weather. i wanna control the wimmins.

I don't care aboiut controlling the weather or the wimmins, I want to control the lottery. With 500 millionz dollars I can control all the wimmins I can buy!!!:eek:

bawang

04-04-2012, 03:19 PM

the only purpose of monays is to get the wimmins. id rather skip the middle man.

With 500 millionz dollars I can control all the wimmins I can buy!!!:eek:

that did not work out well for mike tyson

RD'S Alias - 1A

04-04-2012, 04:47 PM

Internal skill is nothing more than a *Specific* type of body mechanics. There are several classifications.

It's about using the inflation, and deflation of the dantien to create a verticle expansion/contraction of the spine, in your power generation; rather than the limbs being the core motivator. Southern styles also inflate the upper back as well. They have a bit different spinal action, but the principal is the same.

to describe the difference, I will use the southern Hakka style turtle back breathing.

Everyone here understands a normal bench press, right? Breath out and push up, right?

To do one internally, you would breath inwards, inflating the upper back as you push the weight up. This uses the inflation of the upper back to reinforce the shoulder position, and help drive them forward under pressure.

Now, in the scope of a bench press this is of little improvement in power generation because of the angle and all (although you can train the skill this way). However, when you are close in, this type of internal mechanics gives you very violent, explosive power very close in to an opponent where normal body mechanics would not allow it.

This same concept also applies to expanding the dantien as well.

John Wang, I know you are a master, and have a lot of knowledge and experience that is way beyond me. However, I have been explaining this to you for 10 + years now, every time you ask this question on one forum or another. If *I* get this, you should too. It's not that complicated or mysterious.

If you still don't get it, and are genuine in your desire to figure this out, I suggest you pay a visit to Wai Lun Choi. He can explain it better than anyone I know of. He can also fight with it and show you the difference between what you do, and what Internal is.

Unless you are just trolling for debate. Then in that case, please carry on as you were.

Drake

04-04-2012, 04:50 PM

taai gihk yahn

04-04-2012, 04:59 PM

So I guess I'm the only one who saw the comment on "cloud manipulation" and thought of "The Men Who Stare At Goats"?

Seriously... cloud manipulation from yoga? SERIOUSLY?! SERIOUSLY?!

I have a friend who is a fully qualified master yoga instructor... she can't manipulate clouds, nor has any plans of doing so.

cloud manipulation is just Richard Bach-inspired new-age claptrap; the "trick" is picking the right kind of clouds - you know, the ones that eventually tend to drift apart on their own, lol...

Neeros

04-04-2012, 05:42 PM

Which is almost no one here.

Most of us here have been around the MA for 20-40 years. It was thoughtful of you to share your experiences, but they are not new to most of us here as individuals and not really new information for the forum either.

I understand you are still fairly new to the forum so there is no way for you to know that. I am not being critical, just informative.;)

Fair enough. :)

So I guess I'm the only one who saw the comment on "cloud manipulation" and thought of "The Men Who Stare At Goats"?

Seriously... cloud manipulation from yoga? SERIOUSLY?! SERIOUSLY?!

I have a friend who is a fully qualified master yoga instructor... she can't manipulate clouds, nor has any plans of doing so.

Power yoga, or Hatha/Kundalini? had to ask. :D

Anyway, any further discussion in this thread on my part would probably be even less well received, so I tip my hat....if i was wearing one anyway.

Time to train. :)

ps. The Men who Stare at Goats was such an awesome movie. haha

Scott R. Brown

04-04-2012, 05:54 PM

Anyway, any further discussion in this thread on my part would probably be even less well received, so I tip my hat....if i was wearing one anyway.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs you know!

Making clouds disappear would be somewhat difficult to prove you have done using some kind of unusual power, you must agree!

Neeros

04-04-2012, 06:12 PM

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs you know!

Making clouds disappear would be somewhat difficult to prove you have done using some kind of unusual power, you must agree!

I totally agree actually. I personally have never done it, or witnessed it. So I don't say it's real or fake though.

All I know is what I have experienced so far. Which is amazing in itself to me. :)

Scott R. Brown

04-04-2012, 06:14 PM

I totally agree actually. I personally have never done it, or witnessed it. So I don't say it's real or fake though.

All I know is what I have experienced so far. Which is amazing in itself to me. :)

That feeling tempers with time!

Drake

04-04-2012, 06:17 PM

Neeros

04-04-2012, 06:30 PM

I can blast fiery chi from my anus. So will you say you don't know if it's real or fake?

My dad can do that to.

It involves a lighter though.

IronFist

04-04-2012, 08:46 PM

So I guess I'm the only one who saw the comment on "cloud manipulation" and thought of "The Men Who Stare At Goats"?

Seriously... cloud manipulation from yoga? SERIOUSLY?! SERIOUSLY?!

I have a friend who is a fully qualified master yoga instructor... she can't manipulate clouds, nor has any plans of doing so.

Uh, sounds like she learned fake yoga from a fake school.

Real yoga masters can qi blast clouds.

Or maybe she just doesn't want to demonstrate it because it's too dangerous for the ring... er... I mean... clouds.

YouKnowWho

04-05-2012, 02:09 AM

I have been explaining this to you for 10 + years now.
This thread is not discussing whether "internal" exist or not but to request a clip to prove "internal". Are you willing to put up such clip? A clip for "internal hip throw" or "internal roundhouse kick" will be good enough.

A: I have "internal power" and you don't.
B: Whether I have "internal power" or not should not be your concern. Can you explain how did you develop your "internal power"?
A: I don't want to make that information available to the public.
B: Can you at least put up a clip to show your "internal power"?
A: Even if I put up a clip, You still won't be able to see it. I can only show you in person.

Do you agree with A's argument?

IMO, if you have "internal power (IP)" in your

- punch, you should be able to put up a clip to show how you will apply your "internal power" on a heavy bag.
- throw, you should be able to put up a clip to show how you will apply your "internal power" on a throwing dummy.

I know this is not an "internal" forum, but if something you are not willing to share, you should not start a thread and talk about it. That kind of attitude bother me big time.

What's your opinion on this?

YouKnowWho

04-05-2012, 02:25 AM

bench press, right? Breath out and push up, right?

To do one internally, you would breath inwards, inflating the upper back as you push the weight up. This uses the inflation of the upper back to reinforce the shoulder position, and help drive them forward under pressure.

Now, in the scope of a bench press this is of little improvement in power generation because of the angle and all (although you can train the skill this way).
Is this just common sense?

I have been explaining this to you for 10 + years now.

when you are close in, this type of internal mechanics gives you very violent, explosive power very close in to an opponent where normal body mechanics would not allow it.

This same concept also applies to expanding the dantien as well.
You can repeat this for another 20 years, I still don't understand what you are trying to say here. :(

sanjuro_ronin

04-05-2012, 05:56 AM

Internal skill is nothing more than a *Specific* type of body mechanics. There are several classifications.

It's about using the inflation, and deflation of the dantien to create a verticle expansion/contraction of the spine, in your power generation; rather than the limbs being the core motivator. Southern styles also inflate the upper back as well. They have a bit different spinal action, but the principal is the same.

to describe the difference, I will use the southern Hakka style turtle back breathing.

Everyone here understands a normal bench press, right? Breath out and push up, right?

To do one internally, you would breath inwards, inflating the upper back as you push the weight up. This uses the inflation of the upper back to reinforce the shoulder position, and help drive them forward under pressure.

Now, in the scope of a bench press this is of little improvement in power generation because of the angle and all (although you can train the skill this way). However, when you are close in, this type of internal mechanics gives you very violent, explosive power very close in to an opponent where normal body mechanics would not allow it.

This same concept also applies to expanding the dantien as well.

Your description of the breathing dynamics of the BP (Breath out and push up, right? ) is wrong.
Funny thing is that this here:

To do one internally, you would breath inwards, inflating the upper back as you push the weight up. This uses the inflation of the upper back to reinforce the shoulder position, and help drive them forward under pressure.

That :internal way" IS how it IS done, as are pretty much most( if not all) powerlifitng moves.
"Reverse" breathing is done quite "naturally" in powerlifiting ( especially the DL).

IronFist

04-05-2012, 07:47 AM

Everyone here understands a normal bench press, right? Breath out and push up, right?

To do one internally, you would breath inwards, inflating the upper back as you push the weight up. This uses the inflation of the upper back to reinforce the shoulder position, and help drive them forward under pressure.

How did I miss this post?

That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, possibly dangerous, and will result in significantly less overall power generation.

Is this the kind of nonsense they teach in internal schools?

Now, in the scope of a bench press this is of little improvement in power generation because of the angle and all (although you can train the skill this way).

"Little improvement?"

More like no improvement.

Doing it that way will results in substantial decline in performance.

However, when you are close in, this type of internal mechanics gives you very violent, explosive power very close in to an opponent where normal body mechanics would not allow it.

So when you're very close to an opponent you're supposed to inhale as you strike rather than exhale?

Unless you are just trolling for debate. Then in that case, please carry on as you were.

TALK ABOUT INHALING DURING CONCENTRIC PORTION OF BENCH PRESS

ACCUSE OTHERS OF TROLLING

Well played.

bawang

04-05-2012, 07:52 AM

when longfist lifts weights, they are external.

when tai chi masters lift weights and dont tell anyone, they are internal.

wenshu

04-05-2012, 08:30 AM

Breathing in during a bench press instead of utilizing valsalva or exhaling sounds like a complete fantasy.

What follows on the other hand; too legit to quit.

http://www.shaolin.org/chikung/chikung-experiences.html

At about 4.15 pm the sky was already dark with thick rain clouds. The sun could not be seen at all. At 4.20 it started to rain heavily. The thunder roared very loudly three times. It suddenly occurred to me to try to use my chi kung to stop the rain. This was a good occasion as it was obvious from the overcast sky that the rain should continue for at least an hour.

I sat at the meditation position. I went into meditation. Then I circulated my chi in the small universal flow. Next I let my chi rise from my “bai-hui” (head) upward to the sky. I said a prayer in my heart in Chinese, and then in English, to the gods, especially the Rain God, to let the rain stop for half an hour.

A few minutes later I heard the rain subsiding. Then it stopped raining! It was about 4.30 pm.

I called my son to come upstairs to where I was (in my computer room) to find out if he could see chi radiating from me. My son, Wong Chun Nga, aged 10, has the special extraordinary ability to see chi. He told me that a thick column of chi radiated from my head upwards, and the ceiling was full of chi, and the chi was going skyward. The chi was dark green in colour.

Then I went downstairs to the front of my house to look at the sky. The sky immediately above my house was still cloudy, but it was not raining, and the clouds were clearing. The sky slightly to my left as I looked facing my house, was quite clear already; some sunlight had mildly shone through. The sky on my right and behind me was still dark. My son told me he could see my chi in the sky overhead, spreading outwards. Its colour was the same as the one he saw earlier over my head in the computer room — dark green.

If the qi is green the obvious question at this point is: Can Wong Kiew Kit make it rain on dem hoes?

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd94/drake443/imakeitrain2.gif

sanjuro_ronin

04-05-2012, 08:40 AM

IronFist

04-05-2012, 09:34 AM

I don't think that RD is saying to breathe IN during the force exertion guys, at least I don't think he is....
I think he is referring to "reverse" breathing, which powerlifters and olympic lifters do.

He said:

"To do one internally, you would breath inwards, inflating the upper back as you push the weight up. "

Sounds like breathing in during the concentric portion to me.

And as already mentioned that:

1) is wrong
2) is potentially dangerous (since the body will be less stable)
3) will reduce the amount of weight you can lift

sanjuro_ronin

04-05-2012, 09:54 AM

SPJ

04-05-2012, 09:47 PM

internal and external

they co exist

not one without the other

yin and yang

etc etc.

:cool:

YouKnowWho

04-05-2012, 10:02 PM

To do one internally, you would breath inwards, inflating the upper back as you push the weight up. This uses the inflation of the upper back to reinforce the shoulder position, and help drive them forward under pressure.
This thread is for "combat" and not for "training".

The following are quoted from the book, "The lost TCMA world". The author was a student of the famous XingYi master Shan Yuan-Xiang. It has to do with the "striking art" here. It may not apply to the "grappling art" but the XingYi system is "internal".

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/9801/xy0d.jpg

Most TCMA system emphasis on exhale. The harder that you exhale, the more power that you can generate. The XingYi system does not train exhale but inhale. When you "train", you punch out slow and exhale slow. When you pull your punch back, you pull it back fast and inhale fast and deeply. You should light exhale and deep inhale. long exhale and short inhale.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6818/xy1z.jpg

In training, you pay attention on inhale. In combat, there is no inhale but exhale. When you inhale, you will create weakness. You should contineous attack and attack. Continue exhale and exhale. If you exhale all the way on your 1st punch, you won't have anything left on your 2nd and 3rd punches. (The bench press, when you press out is more like "combat" situation.)

...

The training and combat are usually the opposite.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4758/xy2k.jpg

lance

04-06-2012, 01:24 AM

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/quantify?s=t

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/onus?s=t

It means if someone is claiming to have qi power, the burden of proof is on that person to prove that what they are doing is actually using qi as opposed to not using qi.

I can punch a board and break it and then tell everyone I did it using mystical qi power shooting through my fist, but unless I can prove that I used qi rather than just physical strength, no one has any reason to believe me that I used internal power.

Also, if the demo can be replicated by people without internal training, then Occam's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) would have us believe that neither person is using internal qi power.

This is why a true qi power demo must be done in a way that cannot be replicated using physics, physical conditioning, proper body mechanics, sleight of hand, or parlor tricks. Take a sledge hammer to the stomach while blindfolded and not knowing when the strike is coming and not flexing your muscles in preparation for impact. Bonus points if you're not hiding behind a thick layer of adipose tissue, too.

In other words, if you make a claim, you provide the proof.

Ironfist do you take martial arts ? depending on how thick the brick is ? and how strong you physically are right ?

Can you push 5 guys infront of you backwards without them being able to resist you ? Like tai chi people does , you see chi can ' t be seen , but it can be felt .
You know how I did it , you have to practice on your horse stance training until your foundation gets strong . The last time I did it , my friend told me that all he felt was heat . When you practice on your horse for as long as you can , deep below the navel is where you energy pool is , and that is how your foundation becomes stronger . You try it , either you let the people push you or you push them . So right now I ' m giving you the chance of finding out the results . Not anybody can do this unless there horse is strong .

You remember fist of fury ? The time when bruce grab the 2 - japanese fighters by their kimonos and began spinning them around and when he let them go they all landed hard where ever they landed . That ' s not camera tricks , you see other people besides bruce do that ? You see people breaking bricks over their own head or someone else pounding a hammer over bricks and breaking it all over the person head or body . And for the person who had the bricks being pounded with the hammer and breaking it all over his own head , if he can get up and still walk around and does ' nt fall down or collaspes is an example of chi kung . But if you see the person fall down after that chi kung demo then that ' s fake chi kung .

You see a demo where a monk holds the chinaware bowl over his own stomach , while a group of people trying to pull it off but cannot , because for the monk
that ' s doing the demo his own chi is too strong and has his chi channeled around the stomach area . Then when the monk removes the bowl , you see the stomach theres' nothing on it , theres' no sign of any invisible glue . Or when the monks' chop lettuce over their own body they don ' t have the knives slash marks . Because , if there were no such thing as hard chi kung or soft chi kung , and monks breaking bricks over their own head and still walk around like nothing happened then , no body would attempt those kinds of demo right ?

taai gihk yahn

04-06-2012, 05:14 AM

You remember fist of fury ? The time when bruce grab the 2 - japanese fighters by their kimonos and began spinning them around and when he let them go they all landed hard where ever they landed . That ' s not camera tricks , you see other people besides bruce do that ?
http://c.cslacker.com/cache/t/1/7/6375.png

You see a demo where a monk holds the chinaware bowl over his own stomach , while a group of people trying to pull it off but cannot , because for the monk that ' s doing the demo his own chi is too strong and has his chi channeled around the stomach area .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdeburg_Hemispheres

Then when the monk removes the bowl , you see the stomach theres' nothing on it , theres' no sign of any invisible glue .
that's because the glue is invisible, derr...

RD'S Alias - 1A

04-06-2012, 05:48 AM

RD'S Alias - 1A

04-06-2012, 05:51 AM

He said:

"To do one internally, you would breath inwards, inflating the upper back as you push the weight up. "

Sounds like breathing in during the concentric portion to me.

And as already mentioned that:

1) is wrong
2) is potentially dangerous (since the body will be less stable)
3) will reduce the amount of weight you can lift

Actually, you are wrong. The body is more stable because it has a fully inflated lung supporting it internally.

Think about this, if you are in the gym, and want to sit on a basket ball, which one supports your weight? One full of air? or one completely deflated?

IronFist

04-06-2012, 10:33 AM

Ironfist do you take martial arts ? depending on how thick the brick is ? and how strong you physically are right ?

What depends on how thick the brick is?

Can you push 5 guys infront of you backwards without them being able to resist you ?

Sure.

Here's a better question:

Can a tai chi guy press 5 resisting opponents in front of him?

Sure, he can press 5 of his students who think he has magic guru powers. I wonder how well he would do against resisting opponents, however. Of course, you'll never see this in UFC because real tai chi is too deadly for the ring.

Like tai chi people does , you see chi can ' t be seen , but it can be felt .
You know how I did it , you have to practice on your horse stance training until your foundation gets strong . The last time I did it , my friend told me that all he felt was heat . When you practice on your horse for as long as you can , deep below the navel is where you energy pool is , and that is how your foundation becomes stronger . You try it , either you let the people push you or you push them . So right now I ' m giving you the chance of finding out the results . Not anybody can do this unless there horse is strong .

Bro, I light my fire place by standing in horse stance.

You remember fist of fury ? The time when bruce grab the 2 - japanese fighters by their kimonos and began spinning them around and when he let them go they all landed hard where ever they landed . That ' s not camera tricks , you see other people besides bruce do that ? You see people breaking bricks over their own head or someone else pounding a hammer over bricks and breaking it all over the person head or body . And for the person who had the bricks being pounded with the hammer and breaking it all over his own head , if he can get up and still walk around and does ' nt fall down or collaspes is an example of chi kung . But if you see the person fall down after that chi kung demo then that ' s fake chi kung .

Bruce Lee was a qigong master. That's how he did the one inch punch, by shooting qi through his fist into the opponent. Also he could levitate but he was reluctant to demonstrate this technique. And, like William Wallace, could shoot fireballs from his arse.

You see a demo where a monk holds the chinaware bowl over his own stomach , while a group of people trying to pull it off but cannot , because for the monk
that ' s doing the demo his own chi is too strong and has his chi channeled around the stomach area . Then when the monk removes the bowl , you see the stomach theres' nothing on it , theres' no sign of any invisible glue .

That definitely has nothing to do with physics. Definitely not at all.

Also, there is huge fighting potential from that technique. One time a guy punched this qigong master in the stomach and the qigong master used suction qi to keep the guy's fist stuck there for 24 hours until he decided to let him go. It got awkward when he had to go to the bathroom.

Or when the monks' chop lettuce over their own body they don ' t have the knives slash marks . Because , if there were no such thing as hard chi kung or soft chi kung , and monks breaking bricks over their own head and still walk around like nothing happened then , no body would attempt those kinds of demo right ?

Monks make delicious salads.

IronFist

04-06-2012, 10:34 AM

Actually, you are wrong. The body is more stable because it has a fully inflated lung supporting it internally.

Think about this, if you are in the gym, and want to sit on a basket ball, which one supports your weight? One full of air? or one completely deflated?

Wow.

(this message is too short, please lengthen it to 10 characters)

bawang

04-06-2012, 10:58 AM

that guy went outside at 3 in the morning thinking i would meet him in a helicopter.

Drake

04-06-2012, 11:00 AM

Wow.

(this message is too short, please lengthen it to 10 characters)

I second that "wow". WTF kind of redneck nonsense pseudoscience is this?

bawang

04-06-2012, 11:01 AM

i stopped seeing those kind of people as human, just talking pieces of meat. its a lot easier on my mind now.

Drake

04-06-2012, 11:14 AM

Someday I will bring you KFC.

CicadaL9H

04-06-2012, 12:14 PM

I'm not picking sides, but those two japanese guys in fist of fury were clearly manequins.

YouKnowWho

04-06-2012, 01:08 PM

You remember fist of fury ? The time when bruce grab the 2 - japanese fighters by their kimonos and began spinning them around and when he let them go they all landed hard where ever they landed . That ' s not camera tricks , you see other people besides bruce do that ?

Last weekend, my guys were working at that move for their blue belt test. That move is called "撒(Sa) - Casting". It takes advantage on the spinning momentum. It has nothing to do with "internal power". All my guys can do that and I know there are not Qi masters.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/395/spinux.jpg

Scott R. Brown

04-06-2012, 02:52 PM

I'm not picking sides, but those two japanese guys in fist of fury were clearly manequins.

Way to stay neutral!

Drake

04-06-2012, 02:58 PM

Way to stay neutral!

You have a problem with mannequins... punk? :eek:

Lucas

04-06-2012, 03:00 PM

no, he loves them.

http://www.dreamagic.com/roger/mannequin2.gif

Scott R. Brown

04-06-2012, 03:09 PM

You have a problem with mannequins... punk? :eek:

What I have a problem with is mannequin wannabes pretending they are martial artists!!:mad:

But Bruce gave them "what for"!

That is why we never see mannequin martial arts posers to this day!!

Bruce is KING!!!

Lucas

04-06-2012, 03:11 PM

did you know that fist of fury, aka chinese connection, had jackie chans first pro stunt in it? in fact it was so hardcore of a stunt, no other stuntman wanted to do it, so he stepped up and did it. got hurt too....go figure

RD'S Alias - 1A

04-06-2012, 05:10 PM

Drake

04-06-2012, 05:23 PM

I swear to God, I am passing pearls to the swine with you numb nuts!!

One of these days, some of you will actually figure out that I am actually right, start posting about this as if it's something new, and then accuse me of jumping on your band wagon.....

You compared sitting on a basketball to sitting on a human lung... because they both have air in them.

Do you have the slightest clue of how ridiculous that makes you sound?

Drake

04-06-2012, 05:31 PM

Scott R. Brown

04-06-2012, 06:33 PM

For one... an NBA approved basketball is at 7.5-8.5 PSI, while a human lung is at 1.5 to a maximum of 2.8. Second of all, a basketball consists of a sealed synthetic rubber shell. A lung consists of soft, porous tissue, and is not sealed.

It has been said that you can run over a basketball in a truck and not burst it. Try that with an exposed lung.

Again... the correlation is ridiculous.

Of course you are referring to a non-qi-filled lungs.

I am sure lung research has not been fully completed on qi-filled lungs!

I will wait until the plethora of "peer reviewed" research is completed and then blindly follow the scientific findings, because science is the final word on all things real and imagined!:p

RD'S Alias - 1A

04-06-2012, 06:35 PM

that guy went outside at 3 in the morning thinking i would meet him in a helicopter.

It was midnight, not 3AM.

RD'S Alias - 1A

04-06-2012, 06:39 PM

You compared sitting on a basketball to sitting on a human lung... because they both have air in them.

Do you have the slightest clue of how ridiculous that makes you sound?

Well, I don't know how else to explain it to you, without actually training you till you can actually do it yourself.

Please forgive me, for trying to dumb this down to the most simpleton explanation possible in the hopes you would get what I am talking about....

RD'S Alias - 1A

04-06-2012, 06:41 PM

For one... an NBA approved basketball is at 7.5-8.5 PSI, while a human lung is at 1.5 to a maximum of 2.8. Second of all, a basketball consists of a sealed synthetic rubber shell. A lung consists of soft, porous tissue, and is not sealed.

It has been said that you can run over a basketball in a truck and not burst it. Try that with an exposed lung.

Again... the correlation is ridiculous.

The correlation is not ridiculous. The principal is the same. The basket ball just has way more extreme tolerances.

In a fight, it's not a flip'n truck that is trying to collapse your structure, it's just another human.

Drake

04-06-2012, 07:52 PM

If you were using hyperbole, then I get it. But you did come across as insane initially.

bawang

04-06-2012, 08:26 PM

he got that from the movie tai chi master.

in the movie zhang san feng was inspired by a bouncing ball.

if you try to breath in and take a punch your organs will burst.

YouKnowWho

04-06-2012, 08:52 PM

if you try to breath in and take a punch your organs will burst.
When someone throws you down to the ground, or punch on your body, you should exhile a bit through your nose but still remain most of your air in your lung. This way your body inside pressure can cancel out the incoming outside pressure. You should never "inhale" at that moment.

If your opponent punches at your head, whether you breath in or breath out won't make much different.

IronFist

04-06-2012, 09:29 PM

I carry around a basketball filled with qi.

I can knock people out with it without even touching them with it. I just motion like I'm going to throw a pass to them and they fall over. It's pretty bad ass cuz no one can beat me in 1 on 1.

Also it can bench press 1,000 pounds.

Drake

04-06-2012, 09:34 PM

bawang

04-06-2012, 10:12 PM

hes trying to describe reverse abdominal breathing, he saw someone do it and doesnt know what it is.

IronFist

04-06-2012, 11:11 PM

I still don't get it. The lungs are covered by your chest and rib cage. I don't see how you'd gain some basketball-like protection just by filling your lungs with a paltry 2 PSI. A cracked rib is a cracked rib... and there is more jiggling around in your torso than just lungs. You'd think by expanding the lungs, you'd make it easier to rupture other things, and certainly make cracking a rib MUCH easier.

Qi, bro, qi.

Internal bench pressing. Your muscles don't even tense (true internal masters will tell you muscle tension is bad and slows you down and blocks qi). You just move your qi into your tendons and lift the weight like that. I can't demonstrate it, though; it's too deadly for the gym.

lance

04-06-2012, 11:51 PM

Last weekend, my guys were working at that move for their blue belt test. That move is called "撒(Sa) - Casting". It takes advantage on the spinning momentum. It has nothing to do with "internal power". All my guys can do that and I know there are not Qi masters.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/395/spinux.jpg

YouKnowwho , nice picture , but I thought that I was going to see you and your
2 - students doing the move . You said blue belt test so are you a korean , japanese , okinawan , or chinese kenpo stylists ? Just out of curiosity ? You know why I mention that ? Because , I ' ve never seen anybody do the spinning or casting technique in a fight . Your students must be big people ! yeah ! that ' s why they can do that , well youknowwho , convince me ?

YouKnowWho

04-07-2012, 12:32 AM

YouKnowwho , nice picture , but I thought that I was going to see you and your
2 - students doing the move . You said blue belt test so are you a korean , japanese , okinawan , or chinese kenpo stylists ? Just out of curiosity ? You know why I mention that ? Because , I ' ve never seen anybody do the spinning or casting technique in a fight .
The Chinese wrestling had ranking system since the Qing dynasty. You won't see "撒(Sa) - Casting" in fighting but in wrestling. It's a move used by a big and strong guy on a smaller guy. Just for the record, Bruce Lee didn't believe in "internal power" himself.

Your students must be big people ! yeah ! that ' s why they can do that , well youknowwho , convince me ?
I don't have "fighting" clip for casting but I do have one for demo. In the following clip at 0.29 to 0.30, you will see the Chinese wrestling "撒(Sa) - Casting" that I'm talking about. This clip was demo by David C. K. Lin's student Sifu Omar and Omar's students. My "current" students were not as big as Sifu Omar but they are big enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtWIck4a67M

RD'S Alias - 1A

04-07-2012, 08:31 AM

he got that from the movie tai chi master.

in the movie zhang san feng was inspired by a bouncing ball.

if you try to breath in and take a punch your organs will burst.

No they won't. That is a myth. I do it all the time and use the inflated ball to deflect the punch. It makes it much easier to roll them off.

RD'S Alias - 1A

04-07-2012, 08:34 AM

hes trying to describe reverse abdominal breathing, he saw someone do it and doesnt know what it is.

No, I am trying to describe the difference between internal, and external. The concept of generating power on the in breath is a big part of it.

RD'S Alias - 1A

04-07-2012, 08:35 AM

Qi, bro, qi.

Internal bench pressing. Your muscles don't even tense (true internal masters will tell you muscle tension is bad and slows you down and blocks qi). You just move your qi into your tendons and lift the weight like that. I can't demonstrate it, though; it's too deadly for the gym.

Unless you do a hard internal style, like a Hakka system. Then the right tension is good.

Lucas

04-07-2012, 10:08 AM

When someone throws you down to the ground, or punch on your body, you should exhile a bit through your nose but still remain most of your air in your lung. This way your body inside pressure can cancel out the incoming outside pressure. You should never "inhale" at that moment.

If your opponent punches at your head, whether you breath in or breath out won't make much different.

This

567890

wenshu

04-07-2012, 10:16 AM

it's too deadly for the gym.

I'm often too deadly for the gym, especially if I ate Mexican food the day before.

If you want a real laugh ask him about the "internal" deadlift. Whoooooo boy it's impressive, if only for it's tremendous capacity to straight up cripple somebody.

IronFist

04-07-2012, 10:30 AM

I'm often too deadly for the gym, especially if I ate Mexican food the day before.

If you want a real laugh ask him about the "internal" deadlift. Whoooooo boy it's impressive, if only for it's tremendous capacity to straight up cripple somebody.

Geez, I can just imagine someone trying to deadlift without any air in their lungs, inhaling on the way up :eek:

wenshu

04-07-2012, 10:31 AM

Geez, I can just imagine someone trying to deadlift without any air in their lungs, inhaling on the way up :eek:

You left out the best part; the rounded lower back.

Scott R. Brown

04-07-2012, 10:34 AM

My buddies and I did Casting all the time as kids, just rough housing!

sanjuro_ronin

04-09-2012, 05:53 AM

I am saying to breath in during the force exertion.

You
are
wrong
period.

sanjuro_ronin

04-09-2012, 05:55 AM

hes trying to describe reverse abdominal breathing, he saw someone do it and doesnt know what it is.

I think that is it.

lance

04-10-2012, 01:48 AM

The Chinese wrestling had ranking system since the Qing dynasty. You won't see "撒(Sa) - Casting" in fighting but in wrestling. It's a move used by a big and strong guy on a smaller guy. Just for the record, Bruce Lee didn't believe in "internal power" himself.

I don't have "fighting" clip for casting but I do have one for demo. In the following clip at 0.29 to 0.30, you will see the Chinese wrestling "撒(Sa) - Casting" that I'm talking about. This clip was demo by David C. K. Lin's student Sifu Omar and Omar's students. My "current" students were not as big as Sifu Omar but they are big enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtWIck4a67M

YouKnowWho , Explain what record ? Bruce ' s father was a tai chi master .
Even Guro Inosanto said in his DVD material that bruce could shock you with his internal power . You know why you won ' t find any video clip on casting ? Nobody could do it , that ' s why , I can ' t do it , but bruce could , he did it in that movie .
By the way nice video on shuai chiao , ! yeah ! Omar was good in the video , but
the casting that I ' m talking about is 2 - people , not one people . Because , casting with 2 - people is too hard and too strong for one person , that ' s why .
Shuai Chiao is the chinese version of judo , just like chin na is the chinese version for jujutsu .

David Jamieson

04-10-2012, 05:34 AM

Shuai Chiao is the chinese version of judo , just like chin na is the chinese version for jujutsu .

For the record, it's the other way round as the Chinese forms of these martial arts predate the Japanese.

ShaolinDan

04-10-2012, 08:14 AM

Internal seems to mean something different to exponents of the 'internal' styles than it does to 'external' stylists.

From a Shaolin/Eagle Claw perspective, all styles combine internal and external elements...there is no pure internal way to do anything, it's just a blend of components. 'Internal' is just a kind of emphasis, not something truly unique...

bawang

04-10-2012, 10:02 AM

the secret to internal power is:

1. lift weights secretly, tell your students lifting weights is bad.

2. tell your student to relax, then tense your entire body and use all your muscles.

David Jamieson

04-10-2012, 10:13 AM

the secret to internal power is:

1. lift weights secretly, tell your students lifting weights is bad.

2. tell your student to relax, then tense your entire body and use all your muscles.

Pretty sure that Sun Lu Tang probably never lifted much weight beyond a full tea pot in his life. :p

YouKnowWho

04-10-2012, 10:15 AM

'Internal' is just a kind of emphasis, not something truly unique...

The following are my definition for "internal" from the general TCMA point of view. Please notice that the word Qi is not mentioned here. To me, Qi is just "energy flow".

- All body parts move and stop at the same time.
- Body push/pull limbs.
- Generate force from bottom and up, from back to front.
- Compress your body to the maximum and then release to the maximum.
- Body is like 3 springs, they should be all compressed and released at the same time.
- If you think about power/speed, it's not your true power/speed. When you strike without thinking, that's your true power/speed.
- All power generation should be exponential and not linear.
- The ending of your previous move is the starting of your next move.
- Give your force, when your opponent resists/yields, you borrow his force and add into your own force.
- Try to interrupt your opponent's power generation in the early stage.
- ...

Just wonder if people will agree with me on this definition of "internal". An "external" Baji or prey mantis teacher will explain this way.

Is "internal" power more deadly than the "external" power? Either you can knock/throw down your opponent or you can't, that's all you should care about.

ShaolinDan

04-10-2012, 10:18 AM

bawang

04-10-2012, 10:20 AM

internal means someone doesnt look strong but is strong. this the traditional definition.

this is done by lifting weights with low repetition.

YouKnowWho

04-10-2012, 10:30 AM

2. tell your student to relax, then tense your entire body and use all your muscles.

When you play push hand with Taiji guys, they are all very relax. The moment that you get into clinching (arms control), they will all tense up. They may be able to relax when they use the "sticky" principle. The moment that you get hold on them, their relaxation just won't be able to break the clinching situation.

This just make me wonder. Does "relaxation" truely work in wrestling? I have never seen anybody could be relax on the mat from the begining all the way to the end. When your opponent wants you to yield into his force (when yield will not be to your advantage), you just have to resist. That's "tense".

sanjuro_ronin

04-10-2012, 10:36 AM

When you play push hand with Taiji guys, they are all very relax. The moment that you get into clinching (arms control), they will all tense up. They may be able to relax when they use the "sticky" principle. The moment that you get hold on them, their relaxation just won't be able to break the clinching situation.

This just make me wonder. Does "relaxation" truely work in wrestling? I have never seen anybody could be relax on the mat from the begining all the way to the end. When your opponent wants you to yield into his force (when yield will not be to your advantage), you just have to resist. That's "tense".

Context.
Everyone is relaxed in the environment they are comfortable in.
Take the best and most relaxed judoka and punch him in the face and he will tense up.

bawang

04-10-2012, 10:46 AM

notice how no internal guy has responded to the video showing traditional tai chi weight lifting.

deep down, they dont really care about martial arts. its just a tool to escape from reality. if not kung fu, then they would be at a star trek convention somewhere.

Robinhood

04-10-2012, 04:16 PM

The following are my definition for "internal" from the general TCMA point of view. Please notice that the word Qi is not mentioned here. To me, Qi is just "energy flow".

- All body parts move and stop at the same time.
- Body push/pull limbs.
- Generate force from bottom and up, from back to front.
- Compress your body to the maximum and then release to the maximum.
- Body is like 3 springs, they should be all compressed and released at the same time.
- If you think about power/speed, it's not your true power/speed. When you strike without thinking, that's your true power/speed.
- All power generation should be exponential and not linear.
- The ending of your previous move is the starting of your next move.
- Give your force, when your opponent resists/yields, you borrow his force and add into your own force.
- Try to interrupt your opponent's power generation in the early stage.
- ...

Just wonder if people will agree with me on this definition of "internal". An "external" Baji or prey mantis teacher will explain this way.

Is "internal" power more deadly than the "external" power? Either you can knock/throw down your opponent or you can't, that's all you should care about.

I would look at internal as your level of development.

You start out doing external with large movements and you use a lot of muscle energy, as you get better you use smaller and smaller movements and use less and less strength until finally you don't see the outside movement, and everything happens on the inside with same result to opponent's.

Not empty force, you have contact.

SPJ

04-10-2012, 08:53 PM

When you play push hand with Taiji guys, they are all very relax. The moment that you get into clinching (arms control), they will all tense up. They may be able to relax when they use the "sticky" principle. The moment that you get hold on them, their relaxation just won't be able to break the clinching situation.

This just make me wonder. Does "relaxation" truely work in wrestling? I have never seen anybody could be relax on the mat from the begining all the way to the end. When your opponent wants you to yield into his force (when yield will not be to your advantage), you just have to resist. That's "tense".

flexibility may be a better term

if you are able to turn or change

and the opponent is not able to turn, change or correct his position or movement

wo shun ren bei

I am along the direction of energy or movement

you are not able to reverse it

that is how you win from positioning and movement of your arm, leg, body etc

or the opponent is not able to resist or correct

etc etc.

:cool:

IronFist

04-11-2012, 12:31 AM

ShaolinDan

04-12-2012, 01:22 PM

BJJ guys are relaxed.

Back when I was at a MMA gym, I would always be super tense and tire myself out quickly, while the more advance people were just relaxing and waiting. They told me I was doing it, and they said it's pretty common amongst noobs. They even had a slang term for it which may not be appropriate for this forum :p

But that's not internal power. That's just relaxing to conserve energy.

I would say that having the skill/structure/experience to resist relaxed against someone struggling is internal power (at least one manifestation). 'A rose by any other name' and stuff.

Lucas

04-12-2012, 02:07 PM

They even had a slang term for it which may not be appropriate for this forum :p

hey now you cant drop that and then not elaborate....give up the goods man. i always need some new derogetory material.

IronFist

04-12-2012, 10:47 PM

hey now you cant drop that and then not elaborate....give up the goods man. i always need some new derogetory material.

They called it "blowing your load." :p

Cuz the newbies who tense up and use a lot of muscle strength end up spent after a few minutes and then are too tired to do anything anymore!

David Jamieson

04-14-2012, 05:58 AM

They called it "blowing your load." :p

Cuz the newbies who tense up and use a lot of muscle strength end up spent after a few minutes and then are too tired to do anything anymore!

You can see this in people who struggle with their heavy bag work as well. The idea to be coming out with the same as you went in with. Breath holding while striking, striking with feet off the ground, holding tension in the muscles etc. Anyway, they bag after a couple of minutes or less when doing continuous striking etc.

It's the same in anything, you need to develop a way to relax when using your strength so you don't waste energy you need for endurance and stamina. That takes time and practice and constructive criticism from your coach/sifu/sensei/trainer

IronFist

04-14-2012, 10:05 AM

It's the same in anything, you need to develop a way to relax when using your strength so you don't waste energy you need for endurance and stamina. That takes time and practice and constructive criticism from your coach/sifu/sensei/trainer

Completely agreed. I'm even noticing that in my guitar playing. I took an 8-10 year break from playing and have recently started back up again, and I've noticed I'm using way too much tension in my fingers and wrists and oddly enough in my right shoulder, too. I need to relax. It's actually a bit weird, I remember being able to play stuff, but after taking such a long break, my hands no longer do what they're supposed to do, and I'll be playing a song and halfway through forget what comes next :p And it creates this weird feeling in my brain because I remember being able to play it, I just don't remember how, or if I do remember how, my fingers don't cooperate. It's been coming back fast, though; I just need to make sure I don't pick up some bad habits I used to have.

But none of that has anything to do with "internal power" :D When I can play my guitar from across the room with my qi, then I will be sure to make a thread and give James Randi a call.

ShaolinDan

04-14-2012, 11:55 AM

Drake

04-14-2012, 12:09 PM

I frequently blow my load. Is that going to harm my chi launching, as I subscribe to other forms of launching? :D

wenshu

04-14-2012, 02:41 PM

I frequently blow my load.

Just think, if Congress hadn't repealed Don't Ask Don't Tell you wouldn't have been able to tell us about it. *(Sorry Drake, I tired to resist, but it was the perfect setup.)

Drake

04-14-2012, 03:12 PM

Just think, if Congress hadn't repealed Don't Ask Don't Tell you wouldn't have been able to tell us about it. *(Sorry Drake, I tired to resist, but it was the perfect setup.)

Well, not on guys. Maybe Bawang, perhaps... but he's the only one.

wenshu

04-14-2012, 03:16 PM

Maybe Bawang, perhaps... but he's the only one.

Doesn't count, hairless asian anoos might as well be a woman.

bawang

04-14-2012, 05:28 PM

that is a lie. my anoos is hairy like forest. i brush it everyday.

wenshu

04-14-2012, 08:55 PM

I shall sing many songs of praise for the mighty david ross in your honor.

David Jamieson

04-15-2012, 04:26 AM

Completely agreed. I'm even noticing that in my guitar playing. I took an 8-10 year break from playing and have recently started back up again, and I've noticed I'm using way too much tension in my fingers and wrists and oddly enough in my right shoulder, too. I need to relax. It's actually a bit weird, I remember being able to play stuff, but after taking such a long break, my hands no longer do what they're supposed to do, and I'll be playing a song and halfway through forget what comes next :p And it creates this weird feeling in my brain because I remember being able to play it, I just don't remember how, or if I do remember how, my fingers don't cooperate. It's been coming back fast, though; I just need to make sure I don't pick up some bad habits I used to have.

But none of that has anything to do with "internal power" :D When I can play my guitar from across the room with my qi, then I will be sure to make a thread and give James Randi a call.

Ok, your guitar awareness is a great example actually because it is a more refined motor skill where you can be really aware that you are using too much force and you quickly learn that it takes effort to control pressure and force without overdoing it. YES! This is relaxed fluid power in a miniature sense. Translated out into the limbs for fighting, same idea. That idea is what drives "internal" energies. It is an understanding and ability to regulate the subtle forces to a point where you use the right amount effectively as often as possible.

What others see is grace, power and fluid movement from the performer no matter what they are performing. A fight, a dance, a recital of music, a painting and so on.

PS, my alternative response was going to be "Boom there goes the thread"...:p

IronFist

04-15-2012, 08:27 PM

A bunch of people have written what they think internal power is on this thread. Hundreds more all over this forum. You're the only one I see mentioning 'no-touch' chi shooting--I think you have some kind of a hang-up. :p

Internal power means using qi to do something that you otherwise can't do.

People are changing the definition so they don't think they've wasted years learning to move people across the room.

Guy 1: "I'm an internal practitioner! Check out my iron body! I block shots with my qi!"

Guy 2: "o rly? Do something that demonstrates qi that can't be explained away by physics, body mechanics, and conditioning. Cuz it pretty much looked like you were hunched over and flexing every muscle in your body at the moment of impact, eg., external conditioning."

Guy 1: "um, 'internal' just means proper structure and breathing!"

Prior to mentions of James Randi, that conversation has gone like this:

Guy 1: "I'm an internal practitioner! Check out my iron body! I block shots with my qi!"

Guy 3: "omg that's so cool, how do you do that?!"

Guy 1: "Secret internal qi training and mystic power."

Guy 3: "omgomgomg I want to learn" :eek:

But when called on their nonsense, the internal practitioner changes the definition so that they don't appear to have been trying to play the mystical energy angle.

I know, not everyone is like that, but by and large, a significant portion of the internal martial arts community is. There are even specials on Discovery channel about these "internal" masters and their mystic energy.

Personally, calling proper alignment and breathing "internal" training is nonsense. Standing post qigong for 45 minutes a day doesn't make you punch any better. It doesn't make you absorb blows any better (unless you're building your qi and using that to stop blows). Breathing and alignment come naturally through correct practice and neither require, nor involve, specialized "qigong" style training.

Olympic lifters have proper alignment and breathing, but it doesn't come from "internal" training. Same thing with baseball players, guitarists, and authors.

bawang

04-15-2012, 09:03 PM

internal is a unique american phenomenon in that there is a phobia of weight lifting and muscles. kung fu attracts white people who have been bullied by strong alpha males.

another reason is "external" skills take hardwork and dedication. many americans live sheltered lives and cannot stand bitter training, so they make up excuses to not train it. "i dont need to train hard because i can use qi"

xinyidizi

04-16-2012, 03:33 AM

Qi is not a mystical energy and all of us are using it. No matter what style you practice you are using qi as long as you are alive. Many kinds of physical activities can help you to improve the qi movement in your body but the so called internal styles focus a little bit more on its implications by learning how to sense it and how to control it however standing and neigong are just a part of the training and I haven't seen any legitimate martial artist who would say they can completely replace physical training. How qi can be explained in modern science is a very different discussion and there are scientists working on it. Maybe someday they discover that there is a connection between what the ancient Chinese called qi and something like EMF and that humans can also learn to sense or see it like many other animals that have been proved to have such abilities. Then it will be easier to understand its effects on the blood flow, power and health. So far there have been some improvements in this field and I assume very soon things will get more clear.

Outside of science from my personal experience as a beginner in martial arts and from the experience of my Kungfu brothers I gather that with the right training most people can start sensing it after a few months. This feeling will get very strong after a few years and you will be able to sense and control it in your movements but I understand that this way is just one way of increasing your power as a martial artist since this process can naturally happen as part your body's mechanism even if you don't sense qi and your meridians.

ShaolinDan

04-16-2012, 11:34 AM

Iron Fist,
You say people are changing definition of internal so they can say it's not mystical hogwash. I think you're changing the definition so you can say it's mystical hogwash. Guess we just have different perspectives/experiences. I have only trained with one kung fu family, so maybe if I got out more I'd agree with you.

Anyway, I find the term 'internal' useful at times, but I agree it can be obfuscating too.
-Dan

Robinhood

04-16-2012, 01:46 PM

Internal power means using qi to do something that you otherwise can't do.

People are changing the definition so they don't think they've wasted years learning to move people across the room.

Guy 1: "I'm an internal practitioner! Check out my iron body! I block shots with my qi!"

Guy 2: "o rly? Do something that demonstrates qi that can't be explained away by physics, body mechanics, and conditioning. Cuz it pretty much looked like you were hunched over and flexing every muscle in your body at the moment of impact, eg., external conditioning."

Guy 1: "um, 'internal' just means proper structure and breathing!"

Prior to mentions of James Randi, that conversation has gone like this:

Guy 1: "I'm an internal practitioner! Check out my iron body! I block shots with my qi!"

Guy 3: "omg that's so cool, how do you do that?!"

Guy 1: "Secret internal qi training and mystic power."

Guy 3: "omgomgomg I want to learn" :eek:

But when called on their nonsense, the internal practitioner changes the definition so that they don't appear to have been trying to play the mystical energy angle.

I know, not everyone is like that, but by and large, a significant portion of the internal martial arts community is. There are even specials on Discovery channel about these "internal" masters and their mystic energy.

Personally, calling proper alignment and breathing "internal" training is nonsense. Standing post qigong for 45 minutes a day doesn't make you punch any better. It doesn't make you absorb blows any better (unless you're building your qi and using that to stop blows). Breathing and alignment come naturally through correct practice and neither require, nor involve, specialized "qigong" style training.

Olympic lifters have proper alignment and breathing, but it doesn't come from "internal" training. Same thing with baseball players, guitarists, and authors.

Proper body alignment and breathing will not be enough, there are more factors that need to be addressed for useable chi to flow.

Cheers

Lebaufist

04-16-2012, 02:20 PM

Proper body alignment and breathing will not be enough, there are more factors that need to be addressed for useable chi to flow.

Cheers

LIke...........

IronFist

04-16-2012, 03:12 PM

Qi is not a mystical energy and all of us are using it. No matter what style you practice you are using qi as long as you are alive.

This is the other cop out answer. No offense.

Guy 1 - I am doing some technique with my qi!

Guy 2 - Uh... that looks like physical conditioning, body mechanics, and proper application of physics to me.

Guy 1 - Oh yeah? Well qi is in everything that is alive so therefore I am using qi! Haha I'm right you're wrong!

So under that definition, every possible activity requires qi as long as you do it while you're living. In fact, even me typing this post right now means I am an internal qi master since I am alive and therefore using my qi to type.

And by that definition, there is no need for "internal" training since we are all using qi all the time for everything anyway.

I haven't seen any legitimate martial artist who would say they can completely replace physical training. How qi can be explained in modern science is a very different discussion and there are scientists working on it. Maybe someday they discover that there is a connection between what the ancient Chinese called qi and something like EMF and that humans can also learn to sense or see it like many other animals that have been proved to have such abilities.

I would be extremely interested in seeing the results if these things were ever proven/discovered/etc.

As I said, I would be first in line to learn from a master with quantifiable qi skills. I would move across the country to be close enough to the school to train. Indeed, knocking people out without touching them, and taking sledge hammer blows to the stomach without relying on muscle tension, physical conditioning, and proper application of physics would be incredible skills to have.

This feeling will get very strong after a few years and you will be able to sense and control it in your movements but I understand that this way is just one way of increasing your power as a martial artist since this process can naturally happen as part your body's mechanism even if you don't sense qi and your meridians.

That was a vague description and you need to quantify the "power" that you are talking about increasing.

When talking about as abstract of a field as qi, one needs to be very specific so what they say doesn't fall into the realm of vague ambiguous guru nonsense. I'm not criticizing you, I'm just letting you know so that you can also be aware of when others do this.

If some master starts talking about doing qi exercises to "increase you power," what does that mean? What kind of power? How is it being increased? How is the power being measured to confirm that it is actually increasing? How will the qigong exercises "increase" it in a way that is different from physical conditioning such as weight lifting?

There are too many clueless students who do mystical exercises to "increase their power" yet have no idea what they are doing or why they are doing it other than the vague "to increase their power" that their guru instructor told them because he's feeding into their desire to be the hero in a kung fu movie and "increasing their qi power" makes them feel like they are learning secret Asian secrets that white people get all excited about. Needless to say, many of them never even test their "power" so there is no way to even quantify the "increase." But they sure do feel cool and like part of a secret club when they are doing their mystic qi exercises and "increasing their power."

Just for fun, here are some legitimate ways to quantify increases in power:

- increasing your bench press by 10 pounds
- increasing the distance you can run without stopping
- improving your time for running a certain distance
- being able to spar for more rounds without getting as tired as you used to get
- breaking 2 bricks when before you could only break 1
- jumping rope for 5 minutes when before you could only jump rope for 4 (at the same speed, of course)
- being able to no touch knockout a resiting opponent from 10 feet away when before you could only do it from 5 feet away

David Jamieson

04-16-2012, 03:43 PM

I'd leave out the brick breaking personally, because man, what did that brick ever do to you? Also the lin kong jin... no. Just no.

IronFist

04-16-2012, 04:12 PM

I'd leave out the brick breaking personally, because man, what did that brick ever do to you? Also the lin kong jin... no. Just no.

But in the manner I described, it would be a quantifiable increase in power :D

Lucas

04-16-2012, 04:57 PM

*Yoink*

"The principles of body use and application are the unchanging foundations of unlimited technical expression. And the focused awareness of mind and body unity in practice is the method through which martial movements and techniques become internalized, and therefore useful. These principles and their method of internalization form the essence of martial art."

ShaolinDan

04-16-2012, 05:11 PM

Wow. Just dug this up. It really is the same thing over and over again...

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61810

Lebaufist

04-16-2012, 05:13 PM

Dare I say it, Where's Ross when you need him?

B-Rad

04-16-2012, 05:45 PM

Outside of science from my personal experience as a beginner in martial arts and from the experience of my Kungfu brothers I gather that with the right training most people can start sensing it after a few months. This feeling will get very strong after a few years and you will be able to sense and control it in your movements but I understand that this way is just one way of increasing your power as a martial artist since this process can naturally happen as part your body's mechanism even if you don't sense qi and your meridians.

Honestly, In my personal experience, I've found people don't sense it unless told or suggested in some way that they're supposed to. I haven't taught anyone long term though, only run some classes and given a few lessons to a friend. I used to be a believer, but really can't think of any reason to believe that qi is an actual separate unique energy flowing through the body that exists in the real world.

xinyidizi

04-17-2012, 12:51 AM

I am at no level to try to convince anyone as most of you have many years of experience over me. I know that when it comes to things like internal MA, qigong, ...there are many shams everywhere and those who really know them are quite conservative about teaching them(and they have become even more conservative in China after a certain extremist group got itself into politics) but I suggest keeping an open mind before rushing into hasty conclusions for or against these concepts.

And by that definition, there is no need for "internal" training since we are all using qi all the time for everything anyway.
Yes and no. It depends on the specific details of what you want to do. Some people learn to use all kinds of computer softwares and can use computer very well for what they want to do. Some people would learn complicated programming languages so that they can use computers for what they want to do. Both groups can use computers and there are overlaps as well as differences in their knowledge of using a computer.(notice that the first group is also using those complicated programming languages indirectly without even noticing it)